FF vs. FFVtTR

[TheRealNaveed]

Hello, all!

I was in the community quite a few years ago, but gave up playing and modding Freedom Force when I went off to University... now I'm looking to get back into it with more time and such. I would like to resume work on my mod, though I had a question in mind. I would like to make the mod for Freedom Force vs. The Third Reich, but my understanding is that FFVtTR sold a lot less than FF. Would making the mod for FF mean that more people would end up playing the mod, or should I go with FFVtTR to start this thing again?

[stumpy]

Welcome back!

It's a tough call on which game's mods will have a greater audience. It's true that FFvT3R sold fewer copies, but it also works better with Windows (XP SP2+ and Vista) straight out of the box and seemed to have fewer issues with graphics cards, so many people stopped playing the original FF. My impression from posts here during the past couple years is that more people are running FFvT3R. Now with Steam versions of both games that come already patched to run on the newer Windows OSes, it's hard to tell which game will have more installs.

Moreover, the people who install campaign mods have always been a fraction of the game's total players. I don't know of any way to estimate who, among those likely to install a mod, are running one game or the other.

There are many aspects of both games that recommend them for certain aspects of mod-making. My guess, not really having tested it, is that FFvT3R is a bit easier to mod for, since I think there are fewer issues with the mod tools (FFEdit, etc.) and there is M25's EZ Script which makes scripting more accessible to people who didn't learn Python. And, the versions of FFX for FFvT3R have more powers, swaps, and attributes, which make it easier to get the characters to play the way you want them to. Of course, FF's energy system is superior, both in terms of EP costs available for powers and in over- and underpowering of attacks.

Honestly the best approach may be to get reacquainted with both games by playing them and doing a little modding in each, and then figure out which style of game play best suits the feel you want for your mod.

[TheRealNaveed]

Actually I quite prefer FFVtTR's power system. Well, if people seem to be using FFVtTR more now, I think I'll go with that, thanks! I do like the power system more. I was always a fan of the three bars thing. You can't underpower in FFVtTR? Perhaps I never tried, I never really ran into that. I'm not a good enough player to strategically underpower attacks very often to begin with, so meh

Thanks for the help! Before I make my mod I'm going to blast through both of the games again and a few mods, to get a proper feel for the game again. It's weird... I used to know the game mechanics inside and out, even knew Python, and for the life of me I couldn't remember how to power or depower an attack from the right-click menu. I have some playing to do.

[stumpy]

Yeah, FFvT3R only offers one level of overpowering and no option to underpower.

Some people like the 33 point bar system, but it doesn't actually offer anything that the first game didn't have; it's just a change in how it looks. I have nothing in particular against the new form. Unfortunately, as a matter of function, it also takes away a lot of options when designing powers.

Have fun replaying the games. That kind of research is the best kind.   

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Personally, I like the idea behind the new power system, there just should have been 5 bars rather than 3.

[TheRealNaveed]

So far in my replaying the game seems much easier. For the first time in my life I managed to diffuse that bomb without having it blow up on me at least once. Never, ever been able to do that mission without at least two replays.

One more question, though. Does pretty much everybody have FFX for FFVt3R, or is it worth looking into doing a mod without it?

[stumpy]

TRN, since you bundle FFX with your mod, there is no reason to do a mod without it (unless you don't want any of those extras). That is, in FFvT3R, you make an FFX-enabled mod by simply installing FFX, copying the FFX mod folder and renaming it to your mod's folder name, and then go from there in building your mod (adding characters, maps, missions, etc.). When the mod installs, all the FFX stuff comes with it and runs when they play your mod. That way, no one has to have FFX previously installed for them to play your FFX-enabled mod.

Cat, I really don't see any advantage to a fixed-chunk-size EP cost system, aside from it being potentially less confusing for people who like everything to be the same size. Ideally, EP cost would be a slider bar and you could make a power use anywhere between 0 EP and 100 EP (or 150 EP for powers whose concept is that it is so exhausting that there is a chance that using it at all will stun them). The CP cost of the power would be adjusted accordingly (in the game, it uses a formula anyway). That way, someone who wanted to could design a power that was fine-tuned for his character's energy stat, his concept of the character's need to "recharge" after a power use, etc. And, anyone who wanted to make all their characters' powers cost multiples of 33 EP (or 20 EP, or whatever) is free to do that. There is no disadvantage to that system and it doesn't lock anyone into someone else's idea of how big to make the EP chunks.

[TheRealNaveed]

Ah, I see! I have apparently forgotten more than I thought I had. Thank you kindly!

[wickerman]

There is no disadvantage to that system and it doesn't lock anyone into someone else's idea of how big to make the EP chunks.

AMEN

[TheRealNaveed]

Hmm, I've been playing around with FFX for FFVT3R and I quite like it, though one issue really does bug me. In the command menu, energy requirements are listed as costing one less than they actually do. I suppose it's not a terrible problem, but the powers aren't sorted correctly. Is my assumption of this being a requirement of zero-cost powers correct? If so, is it possible to disable to have accurate energy cost reporting at the expense of losing Zero Cost abilities?

[stumpy]

You can disable that behavior by unchecking "Overspend energy w/stun risk" in the FFX Control Centre.

But, it has nothing to do with zero-cost powers. FWIW, there is nothing new about zero-cost powers in FFvT3R, except the new limitation that they are the only ones that will repeat attack.

The FFX option is there to allow you to use powers for which the character may not have recharged enough EP to use otherwise, like you could in the first game. In other words, in the first game, if you had a power that cost 33 EP to use but you were only up to 30 EP, you could start the attack anyway, but there was some risk of stun (depending on how far below the nominal EP cost the character was when the power went off). In the basic FFvT3R, you can't use the attack at all (it's grayed out) until the character has 33 EP.

FFX gets around that by making your total EP a couple points above the nominal 100. That rounds down the number of "bars" each power needs and tricks the game into letting you try to use them without waiting for the last full EP bar to recharge, as you could in the first game. If you are unsure how much EP a power costs, you can look in the character's portrait and the right number of bars is shown.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Cat, I really don't see any advantage to a fixed-chunk-size EP cost system

First of all, I'd like to point out that the first game already had one, it just wasn't visually shown.

The fixed size system makes it quite easy to know how much power you have and whether you have enough for a given power at a glance.  Having a completely free power system, however, makes ballancing quite difficult and would make some very interesting exploits possible.

[TheRealNaveed]

Ah, thank you very much for the explanation. Hmm... I like the idea of the allowance of overspend, but the lack of proper cost display bugs me more. I think I'll disable it. Thank you very much!

[stumpy]

Cat, I really don't see any advantage to a fixed-chunk-size EP cost system

First of all, I'd like to point out that the first game already had one, it just wasn't visually shown.

The first game had a preset set of available EP costs, but the EP costs for powers weren't all the same size or built of chunks that were the same size. There was no "everything has to be thirds" design to the EP cost system.

The fixed size system makes it quite easy to know how much power you have and whether you have enough for a given power at a glance.  

I never really saw much difficulty with the system the first game used. I actually preferred the display that visually showed how much EP a power would use over the character's current EP, blinking if not enough EP was available.

Having a completely free power system, however, makes ballancing quite difficult and would make some very interesting exploits possible.

Hmm. I would have thought it would make balancing easier, since you have more flexibility. And, you always at least have the cost of a power as a baseline metric.

I guess I hadn't thought about it introducing new exploits. What would they be?


As an aside, I do think that it was too cheap (in EP cost terms) to overpower powers with small EP costs in the first game.

[BentonGrey]

I miss the old power system SOOOOOO much....ahh, anyway, I definitely never saw any difficulty with the first system.  I thought it was wonderfully clear and intuitive.  The interface definitely simplified it down nicely.  I also LOVED being able to underpower a power...that and the multiple levels of overpowering....

[TheRealNaveed]

I found that overpowering Minuteman's Smash was always pretty effective and sort of cheap, whereas with chars like El Diablo, you often had to overpower to really do some damage in the early levels.