Starting to think about Community Rules. And write them out.

[Shazam]

I haven't wanted to get involved with this, but what a load of crap!
I have been a contributor to FFX , back when Dr Mike first handed over the torch, I have skinned and I have coded a mod, which was almost ready for release. I haven't been active here in awhile, but I was going to get active again. That said with all this going on I'm not sure I'll bother.

Do you guys want to be known as the ones that destroyed the community?
You're succeeding in taking all the fun out of the forum. Anyone visiting this forum with a view to joining our community will be put off when seeing this.

Thread after thread keeps getting created and all you do is fight. Why don't you just leave this well alone? It's hurting the community.

[The Hitman]

IPS: No prob, I had actually thought of that after I posted. No worries.

Let's just get this nasty stuff over with so we can get back to being a fun place again.

[tommyboy]

Since we have yet to hear from many people who make FX or Script

I knew I was transparent.  Didn't think I was invisible.

Sorry, I did say 'many' rather than 'any', is my only defense.
What I meant and failed to get across clearly was if anyone making any other content had any rules/guidelines/suggestions exclusive to their area, and not to meshes/mods/skins etc. Apologies if I seemed to have ignored you.

I'm not immediately inclined towards a council myself, but I suppose it might have it's merits. Maybe we should have a Poll on that question, to see what people who don't post in this type of thread think?
And I sort of want to bow out here. At least for a while.
Time for other voices to be heard.
(If anyone else wants to be heard).

[Vertex]

Will you guys just calm down and appoint me Supreme Dictator of the World already?

I promise to rule wisely and cruely, sparing none in my rise to glory. All who bow before me will be blessed with joy and my enemies will be crushed beneath my heel. All matters will be swiftly dealt with... those punished will never be heard or seen from again. Such is my power and glory.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Where did the idea of a council come from?

At the most, I suggested a group of people put their heads together and--if this was entirely necessary--draft a few guidelines for reference should something like this happen again. I don't think bureaucracy or administrative overreach is the answer, for sure.

And I'm almost entirely convinced that a Vertex dictatorship isn't the right idea either. Too soon, V.

[Vertex]

Where did the idea of a council come from?

At the most, I suggested a group of people put their heads together and--if this was entirely necessary--draft a few guidelines for reference should something like this happen again. I don't think bureaucracy or administrative overreach is the answer, for sure.

And I'm almost entirely convinced that a Vertex dictatorship isn't the right idea either. Too soon, V.

... and I was gonna appoint you minister of groveling. I'm gonna miss you 

[Podmark]

Do we honestly have enough people who really care about these rules to even form a council?

Most of the rules Tommy posted and IPS edited were basically just writing down stuff we've all followed for years, it's just about having them written down to simply those types of issues that pop up (ie newbie skinner is kitbashing). We don't need a council for that.

The only major rule we'd need to discuss is stuff related to the Benton's mod debacle. Even if we don't touch to no torrent rule, we still need to make a final determination about whether Benton's mod should be subject to that rule. That was the cause of the dispute so something definitive does need to be decided there.

There may also be other issues people want to bring up. So I could see a council being used there.

[bearded]

i have an issue.  it's the issue i had from the beginning.  the lack of politeness, the rudeness, and the hostility.
i pm'ed the major that was super rude before this even began.  i saw it coming, and i begged him to be polite.  he could not.  now that all the drama has happened, he is being superpolite.  very politely baiting.
how many creators have we seen say in various ways, 'i'm not releasing my mod.' or 'should i even bother?' as a result of the rudeness?  how many regulars are no longer posting?  or even logging in?  i've been keeping track.  and i've been very active in the pm's with ppl.
what needs to happen is there needs to be a private forum, maybe not even connected to fr for these ppl that care about minutaie rules to fight it out.  maybe post rules results here.
for me, and a large silent majority, i want to create content, and enjoy other ppl's content.  i don't want to deliberate over technicalities or see ppl argue and bait and torment.
thank you.

[Gremlin]

The only major rule we'd need to discuss is stuff related to the Benton's mod debacle. Even if we don't touch to no torrent rule, we still need to make a final determination about whether Benton's mod should be subject to that rule. That was the cause of the dispute so something definitive does need to be decided there.

Unfortunately, this is the case. I say unfortunately because this is also the hottest topic to be discussed here, and is entirely based on underlying assumptions. I doubt that those who believe this is a mod will relent, nor will those who believe this is a torrent.

I'm one for making even torrents entirely the perogative of the creator and not outlawing them altogether, since I highly doubt we'll ever be able to get a definition that makes everyone happy.

i have an issue.  it's the issue i had from the beginning.  the lack of politeness, the rudeness, and the hostility.
i pm'ed the major that was super rude before this even began.  i saw it coming, and i begged him to be polite.  he could not.  now that all the drama has happened, he is being superpolite.  very politely baiting.
how many creators have we seen say in various ways, 'i'm not releasing my mod.' or 'should i even bother?' as a result of the rudeness?  how many regulars are no longer posting?  or even logging in?  i've been keeping track.  and i've been very active in the pm's with ppl.
what needs to happen is there needs to be a private forum, maybe not even connected to fr for these ppl that care about minutaie rules to fight it out.  maybe post rules results here.
for me, and a large silent majority, i want to create content, and enjoy other ppl's content.  i don't want to deliberate over technicalities or see ppl argue and bait and torment.
thank you.

YES. The drama created here is ridiculous. I know passions flare, but there is too much tearing us apart, and the peace of the community should be our top priority.

[bearded]

I pm'ed the major that was super rude before this even began.

i was pm'ed that this statement was confusing, so, clarification:  i meant i pm'ed before any of the drama began.
and also, i want to state for my own peace of mind, i'm not trying to bait anyone with this.  i don't mention names purposefully.  just stating that i don't like the rudeness, and i saw it coming, and predicted the outcome.  correctly.
someone who displays anger or hostility or lack of self control should not be taken seriously, should recieve sympathy.  and i include myself in that category.  i become emotionally involved when i shouldn't.  so, try not to take me to serious in anything.
a man with a sword is very dangerous.  a man with a rubber dagger is just silly.
(apon consideration edit:)

for me, and a large silent majority, i want to create content, and enjoy other ppl's content.

1.  i don't want to imply i am speaking for the silent majority in regards to anything other than this specific quote.  by nature of my speaking out, i differentiate myself from them.  i just wanted to remind everyone they are present.  not actively involved with the crisis of infinite posts, but affected by it.
2.  after thinking, i realized, no one can say anything regarding the crisis, without it being taken under suspicion.  so...
2.  a.  remember, i'm a man with a rubber dagger.  don't take me to serious.
    b.  if you feel the need to chastise me, send me a pm.  or...
    c.  if you have to belittle me publicly, send me a link to a different forum.  let's keep this one peaceful.  please?
3.  i'm going to make some new meshes soon.  Vertex inspired me to try again.  they are in progress.  i hope no one is so angry at me, they disregard them.  i like meshing.  i like making things that other ppl enjoy.

[Shazam]

What needs to happen is an end to threads like this. Then you will have peace in the community. These threads just keep alive the hostility. Whats done is done, so lets just leave it there.
You can ignore me if you like, I'm getting used to it. I have always tried to be polite to folk here.

I think Pod summed it up, there is no need to have a "council", there is certainly no need for a private thread, that's a bad idea. Can you imagine the uproar from people that were not allowed to participate. The rules that have been mentioned are rules we've all followed, and from time to time they do get broken, mainly through ignorance. Those that have broken them in the past seldom break them again. Lesson learned.

If this keeps up, you can soon rename this board from Freedom Reborn, to Fascist Reborn.

Please, lets try to get back to how it used to be, when we all helped each other.

[wickerman]

I know its been 1000 years since I've been active here, but I DO pop in now and again to see what's up.  I still work on mod stuff (albeit in spurts due to having 0 free time) and always figured i put stuff out there for people if they want it when it is in good enough shape.

Now, I was never one of the 'in' crowd.  I did my own mod - plus 2 others that never got released - helped a modder here and there with some scripts, playtest for some folks and generally enjoyed the folks around here back in the day.

Looks like those days are gone.

Shazam has hit the nail on the head.  This is drama for the sake of it.  Step back and look at this mess.  'Let's have a few folks get together and come up with some rules for the community'.  What?  If you are a content creator and you don;t want anyone using your stuff, don't release it.  If you want it only used for specific purposes, only give it to people you trust.  Other than those extremes, all you can do is include a note w/ your stuff ASKING people not to abuse it.  You are taking your chances.  That's life when you make content like this.

If the 4 or 6 or 8 people who really care about all this stuff want to argue about, PM each other.  Make up a list of rules.  Form a council.  No one will care.  Period.  As a fellow creator, I'll respect Tommyboy (or whoever) if they ask that a mesh not get redistributed, but what about the folks who don't?  Are we going to hunt them down and kill them?  It's like a record company asking you not to burn Aerosmith CDs.  It'd be nice if everyone listened - hell they even threaten you with legal action - but it doesn't work.  This won't either.  So stop wasting your time and pissing each other off. 

If you love the game, play it, mod it, create content for it and enjoy what little bit of a community remains.  Don't finish it off with something foolish and petty. 

Everyone in this discuss thus far has contributed incredible amounts to this game and perpetuated it far beyond what I think most people would have guessed possible.  Be proud of that.  Celebrate it.  Enjoy it.  But don't get bitter.  When it is all said and done and the anger and the fighting drives even more content creators away, where will the fun be then?  Will a strict set of rules and a committee be fun when there is no one left to be subject to them?  Will anyone in their right mind create content knowing they are subject to the 'council'?  Even if the intention behind all of this are honest, the outcome is going to be insulting at best and fractious at worst. 

Everyone step back and really think about how far this has gone and how much further it can go before you've pushed to the point of irreparable harm.   

[Podmark]

to Fascist Reborn.

lol I like that.

[tommyboy]

Well, it's always great to hear from the "shut up and give us more free stuff! you're destroying the community!" contingent.
See, what I love about you guys is, when I argue something, and post my opinions, that is "destroying the community".
But when you argue that I should shut up, and when you post your opinions, that is for the good of us all and completely different.
My Opinions= drama for drama's sake fascist crap that is ruining everything.
Your Opinions= the sweet voice of reason and harmony that is saving the community.

Where we seem to differ is that I think that you have every right to post your opinions, whereas you think I should just keep churning out the free content for you and STFU.
Of course, your contributions weren't subject to censorship and you weren't told what meshes or skins you could or could not use by a third party, so why should you care? As long as the meshes/skins/mods keep coming, who gives a fig what the suckers who actually make them think, right?
Well, I did ask for everyone's opinions.
Don't worry, I'll shut up now.
I wouldn't want to "destroy the community" any more than I already have.

[wickerman]

Tommy,

I was afraid I was going to come ff exactly the way you took it an dit wasn't my intention - sorry for that.

I guess i really don't see things the way you do, because I have only ever done original characters and mods, so there was no where as much interest in my stuff as yours.  I'm not trying to compare apples and oranges - even though I apparently did.

Let me be SUPER clear here.  You OWE the community NOTHING.  No one does.  I know there are alot of ingrates out there who take what he make, never say thank you - or worse whine about it - and never give anything back.  I understand that and I know it is frustrating.  MY post wasn't about them though.

My post was about the core group of contributors here at FR.  I just think there has to be a way for the long time members to iron this out and get aong without airing dirty laundry.

I certainly have no expectation that you - or anyone else - should 'shut up and hand out more free stuff'.  On the contrary - as I pointed out - I, personally, think respecting a creators wishes is the right thing to do.  One of my points was simply that most people do not feel like you and I do.  That ticks alot of us off, but I think we can;t let that ruin our enjoyment of the game and the community.

I don't think your opinion = drama and mine = clarity of thought.  I think your opinion is fine - respectable even.   Hell, I share it for the most part.  I think the drama starts when the talk of 'rules' and 'councils' starts.  It's an understandable response to frustration, but it is impractical.  The people who respect you and others will respect your wishes regardless.  The people who took you for granted and thumbed their nose sat your requests regarding your content are not going to reverse course because the community posted rules and convened a council.  I just think the frustration on your part (and others) - while 100% understandable - has boiled over to the people who built this community kinda taking it out on each other.

None of this is a snipe at TB specifically (or anyone else).  I just think the frustration factor has got people looking at this from a place where they are too angry to be objective.

Just my opinion - no better or worse than yours, just trying to offer another side to the argument.

[Shazam]

I think wickerman summed it up pretty well.

I'm not sniping at anyone either, but this thread proves my point and thats the only reason I say let it be.
I watched my two little ones squabbling today and the first thought that entered my head was Freedom Reborn. They are just 5 and 3 respectively. They fight for little gain and neither wins. It's getting to the point where threads are started, but if anyone offers an opinion they get flamed, thats why I think these threads are damaging.

Well, it's always great to hear from the "shut up and give us more free stuff! you're destroying the community!" contingent.
See, what I love about you guys is, when I argue something, and post my opinions, that is "destroying the community".
But when you argue that I should shut up, and when you post your opinions, that is for the good of us all and completely different.
My Opinions= drama for drama's sake fascist crap that is ruining everything.
Your Opinions= the sweet voice of reason and harmony that is saving the community.

I could take that the wrong way as you have done TB and get offended. I haven't contributed to the community as much as you, but I have contributed nonetheless. The reason that I did was as a small token of thanks to all such as yourself who created custom content that enhanced my enjoyment. I don't like being termed the "shut up and give us more stuff" contingent.

Anyway the long of the short of it is that there has been too much fighting and no side will ever win. You've had plenty of say as has everyone else, please just let it go. I'm not trying to make any enemies here, I would just rather have the old friendly community back. For the record, I download very little if anything these days, so I'm definitely not saying shut up and give me.

[tommyboy]

One last post by way of an apology to Shazam and Wickerman, and any one else reading.
My tantrum was uncalled for, and added little or nothing of merit.
Sorry.
The one thing in there I got right and that I stand by is that I do believe everyone has a right to post their opinions, (especially if they differ from mine).
Now I really will leave this thread alone for a while, as clearly I'm starting to take it a little too personally, and that is dumb.
I do ask that people continue to post, even if it is "why don't you just stop this?", because that's a valid opinion too, (contrary to what I said earlier).

Again, apologies for my last post.

[Shazam]

Tommy it's very big of you to apologize in this thread, I didn't take any real offense to your post and I'm sure wickerman didn't either. Don't feel badly since no harm has been done.

I think everyone is getting rattled to a degree and it's natural. I just think that everyone should stand back, take a few breaths, count to ten, take stock of the situation and start over. I don't think that anyone here really wants to fall out with each other and we all from time to time have a bit of a blarney. I know I recently did and felt very silly afterwards and embarrassed. Things like this have happened before, but generally I think everyone learns from it. I'm sure this isn't the last time it will happen either. The reason that this community has always been so strong is because it has been friendly and forgiving.

I now frequent Karate forums mostly, since thats my number one passion, but I still return here now and then, because it's like home.

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

I'm pretty sure that nobody knows me here as I am a long time lurker that has never participated in any conversation here or released anything to the community.  I realize that limits any impact of what I might say and I am fine with that.  The people that are an active part of the community should have more of a say in things than me, but it is nice that I can at least share my concerns.

First, I would like to apologize for a long post.  I'm trying to cover a few things as they are all a bit interrelated.

I think it might help to first set down some basic goals as to what we want the rules/guidelines/whatever to achieve.  I am sure that there are more goals than what I am suggesting and the idea should be expanded on.  Here are the three basic goals I have thought of.  If a rule can address one or more of these without being detrimental to the others then it is probably a good rule that the community would likely voluntarily follow.

Goal One
Protect the content creators.

Goal Two
Protect the community.

Goal Three
Promote the community/game.

As I said, there is probably more, but these are the ones that I have seen pretty much every modding community I have been even indirectly involved in easily get the community behind.  Pretty much any modding community will follow rules that work towards those three.

An example rule that promotes rule one is that content creators should have every say in how there content is distributed and/or altered.  Such a rule does not violate the other goals.  Tommyboy basically wrote this out in more elegant terms in the first post and broke it up by the type of content in question.

The tricky part is in the gray areas.  What if I were to create an Avenger's story mod and wanted to use Tommyboy's Avenger collection (let's pretend for the conversation that it is for Freedom Force and not Marvel Ultimate Alliance).  The normal route would be for me to approach him about using his content and with his permission include it as part of the mod.  What if however, I did not include his content.  Instead, as part of the install process I provide a link to his web site.  He is still in control of the delivery method and the work is unaltered.  What if I end up using the content in a way he didn't foresee and doesn't want?  He still controls distribution, and the work is unaltered, but it's a gray area in that it's still possible to use the content in a manner inconsistent with his wishes.

Technically, such a thing would not break the rules, but would it break the spirit of the rules?  Would I have broken that first guideline even though it probably brought more exposure to his work?  Things like this would almost always have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

This is a bit easier than I make it sound but it's something to think about.  What about a trickier one?  I'm not up on the particulars, but what about something along the lines Mod Graveyard.  Even though the creators aren't around, and the content would not be available to the public otherwise, without the consent of the content creators (again, I do not know if this is the actual case with the Mod Graveyard or not, but it is easily an issue that could come up as other people might attempt to do similar things without acquiring permission) it blatantly breaks a rule where content creators are the ones to decide how/if their content is distributed/altered.

Now, for the case at hand.  I feel that Benton's mod is very central to the discussion seeing as how it is the very thing that kicked things off.

The problem with Benton's mod is not mass content (I refuse to use the term "torrent" in this manner as a torrent is a delivery method and making a rule about torrents is like making a rule against file compression formats).  Now, how can I state this as if it were fact considering all the recent fighting over it?  I can do so because if the problem with the mod was a matter of mass content then Benton would not be able to address the problem by adding more content.  I'll repeat as I feel this is one of my main points.  If the problem were a case of mass content, then the only way for Benton to appease anyone would be to cut content.  Adding to the mod adds more content and would be the exact opposite of fixing a max content issue.  Yes, he is cutting the content of one creator, but if this were a mass content issue then the only fix would be to cut content.

Then why all the fighting over mass content?  It's basically the same reason some states keep anal intercourse illegal.  They use that to tack extra years onto defile cases as a lot of defile cases involve anal intercourse.  Basically, some are trying to find extra things wrong so that they can attach extra penalties.

So, Benton did nothing wrong then?  No.  What is wrong with the mod is that he distributed and utilized content in a manner that was against the wishes of the content creators.  Seeing as how he is working to change things to address the concerns of the various content creators it is likely a matter of miscommunication somewhere along the line.  Now that he is aware of the issue, he is fixing it.

I would like to address the mass content issue.  I have seen two basic arguments presented.  The first is that it was decided before, but no one can state why it was decided so before.  The other is an issue of exposure.  There seems to be two ways this goes.  One is that of overexposure for those creators featured in the mod, and the other is underexposure for those that aren't.  I've even seen the argument that we should suppress excellent work as it overshadows mediocre work and may make some people feel inadequate.  I think we should throw out this last argument because any rules created for such a purpose would be an attempt to protect egos and we would never be able to protect everybody's ego.  Nor should we try as ego issues are generally a shortcoming of the individual and should have nothing to do with the community.

So I guess the only issue with mass content that could really be addressed is the matter of overexposure or underexposure.  First, we must decide exactly how exposure affects the basic goals for any rules or guidelines before we can decide if a rule is needed or not.  Second, where and how do we decide to limit exposure?  There are many gray areas here.  In the case of mass content, at least the exposure is for the content creator's own work.

It can very easily be argued that offering to host the work of others for free on one's website brings unfair exposure to the person offering the free hosting.  The case can be made that they are getting exposure for the work that other people do.  Are we to ban anyone from the forums that offers in a post to host files for someone?  I really hope not seeing as how this is the only way some content gets released.  However, if we start making rules about unfair exposure, this creates a lot more unfair exposure than a mass content mod does.

Yay for long posts!  On the issue of a council, I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other.  I lean a little towards no real council for a few reasons, but as I said, it's not a strong leaning.  My reasons for leaning that way are one) they would have no power outside of these forums, and even at that only as far as the mods permit.  The second is that this is a community, and not a large community.  There is absolutely no reason why issues couldn't be handled in a town hall format so to speak.  Third, it feels sort of like saying we need parents because we can't keep our hands on our side of the car.  Really what it breaks down to is that we don't want to decide for ourselves, so we want someone else to be able to decide for us.  Either that, or we want to be the ones to decide for others.  Having other people have ultimate say over my decisions has never really sat well with me.  Plus, the type of people that would volunteer for such a position tend to want the power that goes with it.  People make jokes all the time about politicians, and while there are many good ones, there are reasons the jokes persist and we are basically asking people to be politicians.  If a council is formed, and people don't agree with its decisions, then you can expect people to either leave the community, or if enough have a problem with a decision, move parts of it to other places where our council and rules don't apply.

I don't see a problem with rules being about the community because the rules only apply here at these forums so only affects those that are a part of the community.  We are fooling ourselves if we try to convince ourselves otherwise.  If people decide to adopt any rules applied on these forums away from here then that is their business, and the only way that will happen is if the rules created are things that they readily agree with.  That's the main reason I think it is important to hammer out the goals of the rules before actually coming up with the rules.

In closing, I would hate to see rules discussions moved to a private section.  Even the lurkers have a bit of a vested interest in what is going on.  Also, everyone is going to want to at least have an idea of what might come out of it even if it is decided we can no longer have a say.  A closed discussion not only removes our ability to speak for ourselves, but also restricts any information we might get on what is going on or how things are being handled.  I know that there are probably many that are tired of the discussion and would rather not see it.  These same people would agree to anything decided as long as it means that it looks like the community is altogether.  Most people don't care for confrontation and will submit just so they don't have to deal with it.  I am not one of those people.  I believe that having a set of rules that few actually agree with would do more harm in the long run than the damage any fighting from hashing things out now would cause.  That's why, even though I am just a lurker, I felt now was the time to speak up.

I'm not sure if I will be able to get back here soon to reply to any responses due to real life issues.  Please respond as you normally would, but I thought I'd mention it in case I don't get back to respond to anyone.  A lack of response from me is not me ignoring an individual or an issue or anything like that.  It's simply a matter of me not being able to get on to respond.  Any and all may email me if they like as well at NymiethePooh@gmail.com.  Again, I can't always check my email so it might be a few days or a week before I respond, but I will eventually get back to anyone that writes.

[Johnny Patches]

IPS, say a person or anyone does not follows these so called rules.. 
what type of punishemnt would you all suggest? 
im not being a smart ars but how does it hurt.. taken money out of any ones pocket?
make a living on this game?
im still trying to figure it out..
pm me. explain to me so i can see the big picture
right now the only picture i see is the closing of a bad movie
i really dont think anyone is trying to rip off anyones work
give credit where credit is do

[Johnny Patches]

seriously me as a mod collecter.. im not going to take the time to run thru every file and folder to get a specific item.. im sure alot of the content we have already even befor the mishap.. im not going to mention names but, i was curious and went thru alot of my mods and found there is more then 1 more out there with the same issue. that was never brought in the past, as for not going to creaters sites id still go there for the fact never know whats new.. even down load something i didnt think i had .. but then again thats me

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

Taking content out of one mod and redistributing it without permission is a problem that is a separate issue from mass content mods.  Each content creator should have every right to say how their content is distributed.  Just because someone downloads a mod does not give them the right to take content from that mod and redistribute it.  It's the same as downloading a skin from a content creator's web site does not give me the right to put it in the mod.  No matter how the content is obtained, the content should not be distributed in any form without the content creator's permission.  Downloading anything in any form does not automatically grant the right to redistribute the content unless the creator gave specific rights or some sort of form (sort of like a GPL) granting such rights.

[Johnny Patches]

com'on Nymie_the_Pooh im not dumb i know your a member already geese think im dumb?
for the fact you know way too much for a newbie ha 

most people will always go for what's easiest and takes the least amount of work. that's life. you can't stop that but you don't have to help it along.

going threw a mod looking for a specific items seems like alot of work i think.. going to there site would be easier.. thats my real life  

this really old game not many has interst in anymore
and what little we have will go away sooner or later
enjoy life man its very short . im not greedy or selfish
that wasnt the way i was brought up.. i do try thats all i can say for my self
but any hoot im staying out of this now  i spoke my peace
you wont see me any more
thanks for letting me see that clear picture

[Gremlin]

it promotes modding but hurts (or will hurt) content creators.

This is your central issue, and I understand your concern, but I highly disagree with it. There is more, far more, than just DC content available. There are a plethora of other types of content, like Marvel, or Image, or original characters. Even creators who do a character once have gone over and updated the skin (C6 does this frequently, for instance) or do multiple versions of one character (like Atomic Robot's panophaly of Supermans and Batmans). In addition (all taken from the original DCUG release thread [if you don't like me using your quote here, please PM me and I'll remove it]):

Personally it encouraged me to look more into stuff rather than made me complacent. I would have never know lots of these meshes existed if not for DCUG.

An example of a player seeking more content from more sources.

How, specifically, does the DCUG keep other artists work from being discovered? If someone really wants their work to get attention, well...that's what the "Skins" section of the forum is for.

Another skinner who did not feel threatened.

When I first started playing  , Flash_22798 had given me all of his back-up disks with FF content. I'm talking meshes, skins, mods, etc, both from other creators, as well as stuff that he did. I was basically given a "mass content file" that had almost every character that I could ask for in one shot. At no time did I draw the conclusion that I was set for life or that I had no reason to return to these boards. If anything, it gave me a curiosity to find out what else was out there, to check out other creators, to check out original characters, and an opportunity to belong to something where I could escape from everyday stress.

Same creator, once a player, inspired not only to seek out new content but join the ranks of creators himself.

First off I'd like to say that I'm  a player not  a creator/ artist and I sympathize with IPS' view that (new) players may not seek out other content if presented with so much of it at one time, that being said,I have to say (and this is no knock on BG) the the DCUG is not the end all be all of dc related content.When I 1st started playing this game and discovered that mods were great way to get skins & meshes I thought "Great", but as my love for this game grew I realized I had to seek out more and thats what drew me to this site. I think if the players have even half the passion for the game that you the artists do I don't think they'll settle for just whats in this mod. I know i didn't settle for the original DCU ;I've spent hours searching for websites, going thru yahoo groups, even the internet archive. I've practically downloaded everything I could find even if I didn't need it. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't believe We (the players) will stop requesting dc content because of this mod, just as I don't believe You ( the artists ) will stop creating it (whether it's requested or not) If a player's gotten to this site they have to know there's more out there than just the DCUG.

Another user inspired to seek more content.

For the Record, any of my Meshes, keyframes or skins may be used in any Mod, including DCUG, as main or "extra" content, as long as the readmes are present, or credit is given.
I'd be a little less happy about a giant torrent or Content pack, but so long as I get my credit, would not hunt you down like a dog.

"A little less happy," yes, but still, a creator that does not feel threatened.

The concern of a mass content release screwing over other creators is probably not significant. The type of people who would be getting it are either a) People who lost their old content, b) new users who need to get caught up or c) people who don't care about the community at all and just want to play the game (these people shouldn't matter to us as they won't be posting here anyway). I really can't think of many others who'd even want such a thing in it's entirety, and individual meshes, skins etc can be acquired much easier.

A creator not threatened by the DCUG.

Third...ed? Yeah, I'm barely a content provider, and I'm gettin' razzled by some of these responces....

Anyways, I think we need to take into consideration who will be downloading this... "project" (and I say project as to not tick off the overlords). The vast majorty of us that still play the game are, in some way, shape, or form, content providers. I have to ask- how many of you have multiples of the same character that you use. I don't mean varient costumes and such, but the same character done by two or three or four different skinners/meshers? Has that stopped you from using similar content?

What I'm getting at is, most of us know that when one skin is done, unless it's an obscure character, that skin is not the end- all for the character. That would be silly.

A player who would still seek out new content and, to a lesser extent, a creator who is not threatened.

How does including extra content in the mod--directly used or not--screw over creators? Last I checked, I had a brain and free will, which allows me to seek out alternative content besides what's included in the mod download. If I don't like, say, a particular skin or mesh, I'm well aware that there are alternatives by other artists.

Player and, to lesser extent, creator that isn't threatened.

I'm going to preface this by saying I respect every creator that has been in this thread and probably have multiple skins from just about everyone here. My train of thought on this issue is basically "where is Benton advertizing his Mod?" Save for the actual download I believe everything has been on this website. I'm pretty sure that any searching for this mod would bring about 5 or 10 hits to this site. People are curious and if they are looking for content I am pretty sure they would search around the website. Me, when I find a forum I usually go around and poke a bit just to see whats going on. I personally believe for every random person who just downloads this mod and nothing else there would be another 4 or 5 who poke around and find all sorts of new things they like.

A player who continues to seek new content.

I am one who can't see how by having extra characters in the mod is going to hurt the community at all (it might be because I am a player and not a creator) Since this community is so small anymore, we all know where to get skins, who's sites to visit, and what we like, I guarantee by him having extra characters in his mod will not cause anybody to stop coming to FR to check out any new skins/meshes and visiting sites and downloading anything. Like I said maybe I feel this way because I am only a player now a days, i don't know.

A player who would continue to seek out content.

As a skinner who is not as popular as C6, AA or even IPS. I do not feel slighted by this in any way.

A creator not threatened.

IPS, I know what you're trying to do is to look out for the 'little guy', but we don't need the help.. we have a voice and if we refrain to speak, it's because maybe we don't want to add to any drama. But that doesn't mean we don't have an opinion or that we are scared to say it. As Bill already said, and as I'm saying now, I support Benton's project and I don't feel slighted that someone's work like C6 is looked at over mine. I also don't hold any jealousy over it.. it actually inspires me to do better. Just recently I was finished up an Amalgam Hawkeye skin and looked at C6's extras and thought, "Damn, how does he do it?!", in admiration.

A skinner who did not feel threatened by the DCUG.

There were creators who agreed with IPS on the potential harm to the community, however, and it would be intellectually dishonest to not include their opinions as well.

the more i've thought about it, the more i'm leaning towards the artists side of my personality rather than the gamer. i've had more work stole be it photos, illustration or skins, and trust me now matter what the end result it is in simple terms a kick in the nut sack. now before anyone says i'm accusing BG of stealing, wind your neck in. I'm not. BG did the right thing and got permissions, would i prefer he used my versions of characters rather than c6's or aa. bloody straight i would. thats not a slight at the other creators i'm sure everyone would feel the same. my main point is what is to stop someone who doesn't give a crap about the artists coming along and using BG's work as a base and basically screwing over the artists along with bg by releasing a mod or pack with no credit.

A creator who sees the potential for harm in a project like this.

It's like if someone said I'm going to make a DCU psd file with all the pieces from other people's skin on different layers but I made these three master meshes that can be skoped into any DCU character you want. Why would I (a skinner who learned it the long and hard way) bother skinning anymore? The masses have essentially a Hero Maker for skins. You don't think that would be upsetting?

A creator who sees the potential for harm.

I can see how this mod would hurt other creators. I knew Benton was using some of my skins...hell I was planning to update my Hawkman/girl skins plus adding Thanagar soldiers for it...but didn't have the time. It would be very disappointing to me if a player downloads the mod and doesn't bother to look for other people skins to use because mine are "standard". There are talented creators here who deserve to have there work appreciated. For this kind of mod it would have been better to include as many different creator works as he could squeeze in...or none at all.

A creator who sees the potential for harm.

I didn't include anything from IPS, since he made his points known, or Vertex, because he seemed to be more concerned over the rules being broken rather than the artistic implication--in fact, Vertex has stated he wanted the rules changed so BG could release his mod, which implies that he isn't threatened by the project in and of itself. Now, I'm going to do some commentary. If I misrepresent the views of any people here, please correct me.

TUE did say that he believed that Benton had done the right thing because he got permission and was mostly afraid of people who would ignore that step in the future. Well, that's an issue of permission, and if BG or anyone else did not get permission from creators for the use of their work, I would join the board in rebuking them, as I'm certain everyone here would.

AA, like Vertex, has stated that he would've ideally preferred the mod being released, again implying that he was more concerned with the precident for mass file releases rather than being stifled artistically. I may, however, be misunderstanding, since AA has referred to himself as a devil's advocate, and I'm not 100% clear on what his actual positions are.

C6 did see the potential harm, but rather than decry the project, suggested that the work of a plethora of skinners was included, thus preventing other creators from having their work ignored.

Now, I understand this doesn't take into account the number of people who would in fact do as IPS fears. But those people aren't making themselves known, and I believe the reason for that is because those who would ignore the artistic work of the community don't participate in it. The only people who would be content with nothing beyond the sandbox wouldn't have any real incentive to be here anyway.

[Gremlin]

com'on Nymie_the_Pooh im not dumb i know your a member already geese think im dumb?
for the fact you know way too much for a newbie ha 

That's entirely unnecessary, JP. This isn't the place for suspicion. If Nymie is new, then he's new, and he's got a fresh perspective and a level head. If he's not, respect his decision to remain anonymous.

[Johnny Patches]

and i thought all newbies were not welcome for this type of discussions
see its catch 22 around here read between the lines
newbie was stated befor to stay out of this type of discussions
if he wants to remain a newbie stay out of this.
i have nothing to hide my life is not on the line
i can say what i want to say .. its called freedom of speach
does not say anything about suspicion in the rules .. and if so point me to it
im not afraid to admitt i broke rules  and kicked things out the back door...

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

com'on Nymie_the_Pooh im not dumb i know your a member already geese think im dumb?
for the fact you know way too much for a newbie ha 

That's entirely unnecessary, JP. This isn't the place for suspicion. If Nymie is new, then he's new, and he's got a fresh perspective and a level head. If he's not, respect his decision to remain anonymous.

I'm a new poster in this community, but have lurked for a while.  I have been a little active in other modding communities, but nothing major.  A few may recognize the name as I used to be active on the City of Heroes forums (I still miss Cuppa Jo), and can be found on splinter forums from there such as Comics Haven under this same name.  I can understand the suspicion however considering recent events.

I think there comes times when pretty much every modding community goes through something like this.  Case in point is take a look the Neverwinter Nights community recently?  Even with Bioware still being an active part of the mod community there was a recent blow up along these same lines.  Basically, content creators were finding their content in other mods without their permission.  This is content they created to be used by others, but the intention was that the content would be downloaded separately and not as part of any other mod.  It was a bit of a gray area as they did upload it for others to use, but the content creators always thought that others would make a download of their content a requirement for their mods rather than include the content outright.  Also, a much less gray area was where sometime the content was being altered.

This all lead to a few different sites creating a Bill of Rights.  I agree with quite a bit of what is presented in each of those that I have read, but never everything covered in any one.  That will likely always be the case, but I can give in on a position or two as long as I agree with the spirit of each rule.  The reason for all these Bill of Rights (there were probably about half a dozen written up with different flavours depending on which web site you are at) came about because Bioware refused to deal with this issue as it didn't break any of their rules.  So, as far as they were concerned it was a non-issue.  It was pretty much left up to the community to determine what they wanted.  Not that they could back anything they decided without Bioware, but it was important for them to hammer it out nevertheless.

[Gremlin]

but for the record, as long as there is one person who will be affected by this, i will fight. period. thankfully, from my inbox over the weeks and support i have received privately i don't have to worry about that at all.

Then we will never, ever, ever reach an end. Someone will be hurt by whatever this results in. There is no solution that will please everyone, because people are standing in direct opposition to each other in certain fundamental ways--i.e., to what extent is permission the primary factor in mods, is the DCUG a mod or a content pack, etc. People will have to surrender on some points. And no, I'm not singling you out, because I know everyone here has been stubborn. But if toes are going to be stepped on, better to make it so as few people as possible are hurt.

[Gremlin]

i'm saying this just so you understand that statement of mine that you quoted...

i don't do prop6, i don't do prop8, i don't do slavery and i will never stand for any kind of "democratic agreement" to harm a group of people regardless of how small the "vocal majority" view the opposing voices.

the only solution is that we agree to only do things that do NOT harm each other. we should not be fighting on whether or not harm is being done or will be done. it's obvious. and it's rationale.

we just simply restrict our efforts to positive things that don't harm anyone. and i'm sorry, but it's not rocket science.

I understand and agree with you to some extent. However, the people who you claim will be harmed by this are themselves stating that they would not be hurt by it. Some feel they would be, and they have been in contact with you. But the question of whether or not this will harm people is still up for debate. However, we don't know exactly how to judge that. The best way, in my mind, would be to figure out what the majority of the community believes, or perhaps the majority of creators, and abide by that choice.

[TaskMasterX]

Wouldn't it be easier to just have everyone agree that if someone has an issue with a mod, torrent, or whatever, to contact the creator of the mod, torrent, or whatever, privately? -and settle it privately? Instead of posting their concerns in the the creator's thread and creating a bandwagon for others to jump on, which then leads to an us vs. them environment, alot of the headaches over the fast few weeks would have been avoided, I'm sure.