Please, please, don't go see Transformers 2

[Tomato]

hmmm... I've read this thread through, and I have to say... And even though I haven't seen it yet, I cannot imagine you guys having sufficient cause for complaint against this movie. Not in the same year this movie came out. A little perspective before we start crusades about how TRANSFORMERS is dumbing down media, mk?

[Trelau]

Hollywood has dumbed down the media a longed time ago.
I'm not afraid to say that their are more and more good tv show in the us, and less and less good movies.
Hollywood effectively swaps the role of tv and cinema. Now cinema has become cheap entertainment and the only "cultural" things can be found on tv. ok that's not totally true. but there use to be a time where documentary was just one other type of movie. now it can only be seen on tv, with a few rare exception.

And about that "it's just an opinion" argument...****. I don't know when this became a social consensus, but opinion DO have value. Every opinion are not equal.

So saying you can like a crappy movie because "it's just your opinion" that it sucks is not a valid point either. You're alowed to have bad taste, but don't you dare tell me that everything has the same value because taste is a matter of opinion. Good non-cerebral entertaining movie exist.
exhibit A: Ghostbuster. Good actors, good dialogue, good scenario, nicely shot, amazing special effect at time of release,... Why is it that we don't see some of these anymore? Because people settle down for worse. If a good movie and a bad movie score the same, guess what kind of movie will be produced next?

edit: forgot the censorship again, meh

[House Quake]

Hollywood has dumbed down the media a longed time ago.
I'm not afraid to say that their are more and more good tv show in the us, and less and less good movies.
Hollywood effectively swaps the role of tv and cinema. Now cinema has become cheap entertainment and the only "cultural" things can be found on tv. ok that's not totally true. but there use to be a time where documentary was just one other type of movie. now it can only be seen on tv, with a few rare exception.

And about that "it's just an opinion" argument...****. I don't know when this became a social consensus, but opinion DO have value. Every opinion are not equal.

So saying you can like a crappy movie because "it's just your opinion" that it sucks is not a valid point either. You're alowed to have bad taste, but don't you dare tell me that everything has the same value because taste is a matter of opinion. Good non-cerebral entertaining movie exist.
exhibit A: Ghostbuster. Good actors, good dialogue, good scenario, nicely shot, amazing special effect at time of release,... Why is it that we don't see some of these anymore? Because people settle down for worse. If a good movie and a bad movie score the same, guess what kind of movie will be produced next?

edit: forgot the censorship again, meh

IMO... there is just so much wrong with these statements. And since my opinion has more value than yours, everyone should recognize I'm right.

[Trelau]

And that's exactly the kind of "opinion" i was talking about. An opinion that is base on fact and/or on some kind of reflection as more value than on who isn't.
You're trying reductio ad absurdo on me and you haven't even understand my argument.
I'm saying that the fact some people like crummy movies doesn't make theme less crummy. But the FACTS that the actors can't act, the dialogue are badly written, some characters are racist stereotype, the role of the scenario is just to promote the army, the special effect are are less good than the first one,etc.... THAT makes it a bad movie. It's a fact. That you decide to call an opinion because it doesn't suit  you.
I could say the same thing about reality tv and people press (the paparazzy kind, not sure how it's called in the us). The fact that millions of people read it and enjoy it doesn't make it less trashy and less shamefull. In the opinion of the readers/watchers it's "enjoyable "fun" or worse of it "i only look at it to mock it, but i know it's bad". So you can say it's only my opinion, but i consider it a fact that those are worthless human product, actually more demeaning to the watcher/reader than to the writer/producer: just compare it to anything else in the entertainment industry.
Let's take this the other way around. I hated the first Transformer. I'm still convinced that that movie is not worth watching. BUT, unlike you, i've actually read the argument of the otherside and I recognise some quality to that movie. So I still say that I hate it. But not that it's a bad one. So i recognise than in that case my opinion is just that: an opinion. And the fact is that this movie isn't as bad as i say it is.
But we could talk about this for hours. You're obviously not gonna change your mind, and i disagree with almost everything you've said so far on the subject.

[BentonGrey]

Let's watch our language, gentlemen. 

[Rick Battlemage]

And that's exactly the kind of "opinion" i was talking about. An opinion that is base on fact and/or on some kind of reflection as more value than on who isn't.
You're trying reductio ad absurdo on me and you haven't even understand my argument.
I'm saying that the fact some people like crummy movies doesn't make theme less crummy. But the FACTS that the actors can't act, the dialogue are badly written, some characters are racist stereotype, the role of the scenario is just to promote the army, the special effect are are less good than the first one,etc.... THAT makes it a bad movie. It's a fact. That you decide to call an opinion because it doesn't suit  you.
Let's take this the other way around. I hated the first Transformer. I'm still convinced that that movie is not worth watching. BUT, unlike you, i've actually read the argument of the otherside and I recognise some quality to that movie. So I still say that I hate it. But not that it's a bad one.
But we could talk about this for hours. You're obiously not gonna change your mind, and i disagree with almost everything you've said so far on the subject.

Everyone's opinion does count if it's stated right. It's crap/it's good is useless without explaining why. Chances are I look for different things in a movie than you do, hence I get a different value out of it. Isn't the most important thing that a person enjoys a movie no matter how much it stinks in anyone else's opinion. Let me have my crappy movies.

[murs47]

So...Megan Fox looked great in that movie.

Well worth the price of admission alone.

[Trelau]

Chances are I look for different things in a movie than you do, hence I get a different value out of it. Isn't the most important thing that a person enjoys a movie no matter how much it stinks in anyone else's opinion. Let me have my crappy movies.

Well that, i can't argue with, an i totally agree. I like crappy things to, and don't hide from it.
So, sorry if i got "over-excited", i didn't mean to be insulting.

[Tomato]

My opinion: Transformers 2 is not worth the venom herein. It's a just a movie, and not even one with Barakapool. Chill.

[UnfluffyBunny]

@ Trelau.
I'm presuming english isnt your first language so forgive me if i've misconstrued some of what you wrote, but alot of the sentances seemed redundant / non-sensical.

from what I understand, I believe you're trying to say, is the look of "I accept you may enjoy this movie even tho I consider it "crappy" " is not acceptable based on the fact, if the movie is crappy, people shouldnt be able to voice that they believe the contrary. (hereby bringing out the issue, who would be an authority to declare wether a movie is crappy or not, I certainly see no single poster in this thread, dare I say this forum who i'd declare an expert over all to be deemed with that decision)
If this is infact your belief there-in lies it's own flaw, you cannot assertain that an oppionion may or may not be deemed worthless by some higher decision of fact if there is no base fact beyond the oppinion of the person making the statement.
by your own reasoning, it's far broader accepted that a person is entitled to their oppinion and the right to believe that oppinion in the bare face of any who would disagree. and therefore your own reasoning would render your arguement null and void.
on an ad-note, I dont believe making a statement that HQ hasnt read he other side of the arguement would be a fair judgement to make, reading his posts he directly reflects and responds to comments made by others, using a comment like that to bolster your own arguement isn't going to credit you any.

as a final note, the epitome of crappy movies is the B-movie, and without those, we wouldnt have bruce campbell (hail to the king baby)

[thanoson]

Hey, don't forget Bill Paxton. That guy is very underated.

[stumpy]

It's clear not everyone is going to walk away with the same opinions about the movie, and that's fine. But, let's keep things personally respectful and in line with the forum rules.

[Mr. Hamrick]

I feel like much of the debate on this thread could and should go into its own separate thread.  But whatever.

As someone in the business of making movies, I want to point out a few things.

First of all, and I think everyone here is aware of this, most of the movies "made by Hollywood" are made for one reason: to make money.  The ones that are not are made because of things like contract obligations between the studios and the actors or the studios and a director.

Second, there are bad movies that get made that look great on paper.   And there are bad scripts that get made to look quite good on screen.  Having said that, there are good scripts that get butchered during production either by the director or by the studios.   Transformers 2 was a great idea on paper.  Rather or not the issue with the final product were choices made by Michael Bay or choices forced by the studio is only speculation.  The "Ghettobots" were likely a choice made by Bay in response to audiences getting upset about the death of Jazz in the first movie.  An intentionally bad choice sometimes get made by a director as a response to something forced on him by the studio.  The results is usually a train wreck.  Transformers 2 is an excellent example of this kind of train wreck. 

Third, the best movies being made right now are not being made within "the traditional studio system".  Most of the better films I have seen are coming from "the independent scene".  That is to say, the better told stories are being made for less money by filmmaker's who are not working for the studio.  Some of these films are picked up by studios and get some sort of release.  Some of them will not likely be seen outside the film festival circuit unless they get some sort of direct to DVD deal.

@Trelau,
Hollywood has not dumbed down the media.  The media has dumbed down Hollywood.  Audiences have been complicit in their aid of that dumbing down.  Instead of seeking out and putting their money toward "good movies", they have instead salivated over whatever the studios put out. 

Various filmmakers have managed to thrive despite this and proven they can make money for the studios.  Sam Raimi, Christopher Nolan, Robert Rodriquez, Quintin Tarrentino, Danny Boyle all fall into this category.  Some have proven that they can make money in the past but now so so without regards to the quality of the movies they are making, Michael Bay and Steven Spielberg are in that group.  (Though, it's kinda sad to put Spielberg in that group.  I largely do so because of how disappointing that his past few films have been.)  And George Lucas?  Don't get me started!

I could sit here and rant about this all day if I wanted.  However, I have gotten two production related calls while typing this post.  I have a meeting in about 90 minutes about a project.

[TheMarvell]

not to revive this topic with the venom spitting, but I finally got a chance to see the movie. Everyone has bashed this movie so much, that I was honestly expecting something as bad as Ultraviolet. Thankfully, it wasn't even close.

In fact, it entertained me and kept my interest. And I think I enjoyed it a lot more thanks to everyone saying how awful it was. I'll admit, the movie is nowhere as good as the first one, but it is also nowhere near my top ten worst movies list. It suffers from too many comic moments and stereotypes and plot holes, but it still somehow remained entertaining.

Ultraviolet still remains king of the worst movies I've ever seen, and still to this day remains the only movie I've seen in theaters that I actually wanted to walk out on. Transformers 2 wasn't nearly that bad.

[thanoson]

What about Aeon Flux and In the Name of the Rose? Or whatever that Uwe Boll movie was with ninjas fighting orcs or whatever they were. Does it rank with those two?