The Marvel Thread

[Silver Shocker]

Tal, not saying you and the article are wrong in general, but I love the irony that the article flat out starts out by implying that movie Ant-Man has helped sales of the comic soar when me and Spade just finished establishing that no, sir, that is, as you put it, demonstrably untrue. Now, if there's a new volume of Ant-Man, awesome, but if that were the case wouldn't they have announced it by now? The X-Men creative teams wasted no time in confirming that the X-Men books weren't going anywhere, soo....

In addition, you are aware that a few years ago comics sales numbers were gouged to absurd degrees due to their inclusion in Loot Crates?  See, that's the thing, your "demonstrable" sales data is open to interpretation and there are any number of variables that have to be factored in. The variant covers one Spade mentioned is a good example. This week my comic book store had like ten sketch variant covers of All-Star Batman and nothing else because fans put ASB in their pull list but noone wanted the sketch variants. That's unsold comics.

My local store also got absolutely nailed by Convergence. He was selling nearly every book for a dollar each mere months after they came out.

See also Secret Wars/Battleworld. My store's "value packs" (aka the whole mini for half price) box is full of them to this day.

[HarryTrotter]

http://www.comicsbeat.com/tilting-at-windmills-252-this-retailer-wrote-252-columns-and-what-he-found-out-might-shock-you/
Somebody explains it better then I could.

http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/features/135996-overthought-bubble-27-on-wednesday-it-is-old-news.html
And another one,about Marvel spoiling their own books.
If your reading Spiderman its because you always read Spiderman,not because you care whats gonna happen to him.Sad,but true.

[Silver Shocker]

Re: Champions: Oh boo hoo. That happens literally all the time. That's like complaining about Thunderbolts covers "spoiling" that the Thunderbolt who "died" in issue #1 didn't stay dead, or solicits for Uncanny Avengers giving away when exactly Hank Pym would appear again. Besides, I read the first issue of Vision and didn't think it was all that great anyway.
re: Spider-Man. But I always read Spider-Man and I'm not reading it anymore, precisely because I didn't care what happened to him in Amazing anymore.

[HarryTrotter]

I didnt read Vision so that example is lost on me.But to be fair,I see the point that the article was making.As in,Marvel is more focused in teasing new things,then respecting the ongoing series.
Spiderman was just an example.He was trying to say that we read comics more out of habit then out of enjoyment.I dont really buy that,but there might be a sliver of truth there.

[Silver Shocker]

Well, it's possible they could have kept her off the cover and then updated it later. I'm pretty sure they've gone that before (heck, the Hawkeye stuff in Civil War II might quality) but then you can't promote her as being in the book until Vision's story is concluded.
Even though I thought the first issue of Vision was overrated I predict Mark Waid will make me a fan of Viv. I like the idea of the character and the Vision series more than the book itself based on the issue I read. It's been too long so I can't remember what it is I didn't like about it but I know I walked out with it with a clear sense of "that was it?"

Skimmed the article. Don't agree that promoting Death of Wolverine spoils the death of Wolverine. That's the point of the story, you're supposed to know he's going to die. In a story like that, it's the sense of urgency and mortality that informs the story. Breaking Bad is a good example. You know from the first episode that Walt has cancer and as such he's aware of his mortality. Every time he coughs his guts out in the show, that's like a ticking time clock there to remind both the viewer and the character. That's the motivations for his getting into drug dealing in the first place.

[Talavar]

I realize we only know sales figures for what stores order, rather than total sales, and the reasons why are up to interpretation (though I don't see why discounting the movies entirely makes sense), it doesn't change that there's been an upward trend over the last 5 or 6 years in the numbers of comics ordered from all retailers.  Sure, stores get burned some of the time ordering comics that don't sell, but if they were always getting burned, they'd stop ordering more, especially when we're talking about growth over a number of years, not just quarters in a calendar year.

If you look at the Comichron yearly unit sales for all Diamond distributed comics (which is basically all of them) 2015 sold 25 million more comics than 2010.  That's a lot of comics.  Now, has Marvel's share significantly dropped? Maybe.  Image and IDW definitely seem to have expanded, but some of that is probably at DC/Vertigo's expense as well.  Has it dropped enough that they're actually selling fewer comics today than the end of last decade, despite market growth of around 25%?  I doubt that.

Anyway, the claim was that comic sales are at their all time lowest, which is BS.  I'm not saying millions of movie viewers all started reading comics (though maybe some did to account for the upward trend), and I'm not saying this is the highest comics have ever sold, but it is significantly higher than recent low points, particularly 2000/2001, and 2010 as examples.

[HarryTrotter]

Okay,Death of Wolverine wasnt the best example.But like I said,I can kinda see the point.
For example,if people see that Hulk dies in CW2 #3,will they go and buy that issue?Is that preview helping sales?Anyway,I mostly posted it because it mentioned similar things as the first article.

[Silver Shocker]

Tal, didn't mean to imply I was discounting the influence of the other films at all, I was strictly talking about Ant-Man. For the record, Nick Spencer or whoever (might have been the editor) claimed when the previous volume of Ant-Man came out that they didn't do the book because of the movie, which I'm reluctant to believe considering they redesigned his costume to look more like the movie one. I imagine if the character sold well enough in the comics, he'd appear in other books and be on an Avengers team; probably Uncanny Avengers so he could interact with Hank Pym. In terms of the comics, Marvel doesn't seem to care much about Ant-Man. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if we see more Ant-Man in the comics in time for the second Ant-Man movie though, so if the book's really cancelled I can at least look forward to that.

[HarryTrotter]

Okay,granted the sales may not be at lowest possible point,but they are not nearly what they could/should be,considering the popularity of Superheroes right now.
And again,we have no way of knowing how many issues make it ACTUAL readers.Real readership would probably be closer to 50-60 000 the 300 000.
Lets also count that Marvel(and DC and Image I assume) now have more series then 10 years ago.For example,if they had 50 new issues  per month,now they have 80.Readership didnt increase,they are just selling more comics to the same people.

[Silver Shocker]

Civil War II has been extended to 8 issues, adding one extra than they originally planned.

Yay?!

Also I just finished my Marvel books from last week:

All New Avengers:

It's a Civil War II tie-in starring Vision, but it really doesn't have that much to do with Civil War II. It's more continuation of All-New Avengers plot. The whole thing's about Vision. I liked it, and I interested in seeing where Waid's going with it. But there was one aspect about it that bothered me.

Spoiler

So the whole thing is about Vision, who we're told is getting "too emotional" these days and has to keep moving his newly formed emotions to what's effectively an external hard drive. He'd been controlled by Kang the Conquerer recently, and wants to eliminate him from the time-line once and for all before he becomes Kang. There's extensive narration explaining Vision's thoughts on this, and he even says that he's aware that the timeline could be badly screwed up if he does this, but he ends up doing it anyway. He is pursued by some kind of time-wraith, who says that time is equally effected by Kang's presence as it is his absence, which Vish seems to take as justification to go through with his plan. The part that bugs me though, is that at no point is there a reference to Kang being Iron Lad and forming the Young Avengers. You'd think that'd be kinda important to the timeline and that preventing that from happening would have significant ripples. Not only that, but the very first arc of Young Avengers showed that New York becomes a post-apocalyptic wasteland if Iron Lad doesn't go on to become Kang. So this story feels kinda redundant. Oh, wait, is this a "post-Secret Wars" thing? 

Then we have *sigh* "All New All Different Avengers Annual: The Fan Fiction World of Ms. Marvel"

Make no mistake, this is NOT an All-New Avengers book, despite the completely misleading cover showing Sam Wilson and Nova. The team doesn't appear in the book in any capacity; this is a Ms. Marvel book through and through that Marvel called "All-New Avengers" to try to get more people to buy it. Well, apparently they succeeded; They got my money. I assumed that because Waid himself along with Mahmud Asrar were working on stories for this that it would actually count as an extension of his run but I was completely wrong. Worse still, it's pretty goldarn terrible. The writers must have an especially low opinion of fanfic writers, because not only do they portray the fanfic as the most ineptly written stuff you can think of (inadvertently bashing the styles of the guest writers/artists in the process) but they even go so far as to stereotype fanfic writers as pathetic basement dwellers writing fanfic as a cry for help. Classy.    Waid's fanfic also serves as a strawman mysogistic take, going far as to ironically use the term "Social Justice Warrior" to refer to Ms. Marvel. Ehhhh.  I'm going to make a little educated guess and guess that Ms. Marvel fans probably love this annual. Well, as someone who no significant problem with the character in All-New or her few appearances in Nova, if this book was meant to be an ambassador to the character for me, it failed. Here she's an immature brat that whines to the guys running the fanfic site to try to get other people's fanfic taken off the site because she doesn't like it. When she complains that the fanfic doesn't portray her and the other heroes the way they are in real life, she's immediately told "....This is a fanfic site." Um, yeah, that's kinda how it works. As a writer of fanfic (terrible fanfic, judging by the titles she lists off), you'd think she'd get that. instead she says "I don't care!" Our hero, ladies and gentleman! A petulant child who complains when she doesn't get her way and wants to impede on other's rights to write fanfic on the same site as her. The sad thing is this framing device is written by Ms. Marvel's own writer. So I guess between what little I read of the first issue of her book (I literally couldn't finish it, that's how bad it was) and this, I guess Ms. Marvel sucks in her own book but is fine in other books. That's what I got from this.

On the other hand, the one thing I did out of this book (other than that the Spider-Ham-esque animal parody was mildly cute) was that the She-Hulk story was by the creator of the charming webseries "Bee and Puppycat" I really liked the character of Bee in that, but she is not She-Hulk, so trying to use that style on her didn't really work. It's like how people say "Because it worked in one medium, it must work in another."

In the future, I'll have to make sure to be more scrutinizing and exercise more discretion (like say, reading the official preview) before buying a book like this to make sure I don't waste my money again.

[edit] so I just checked the preview for the annual, because I wanted to know if it actually would have helped, and the answer is NO. Other than the credits page, the worded preview only covers the first 3 pages, as in the framing device. It doesn't get to the actual fan-fic (though the initial bit with Ms. Marvel would have been a turn-off, I was under the impression that the actual All-New Avengers would turn up in the fanfic. Which didn't happen, other than Miles. Also, the solicit text is also a lie. It claims you're going to be reading Kamala Khan's fanfic, but you don't. It's other people's fanfic that she's reading. Way to botch your premise there, Marvel.

[HarryTrotter]

My arch-nemesis;Fanfic.net!
On the other hand,you pretty much summed my problems with Ms Marvel.

[Silver Shocker]

It really is a shame, because like I said, she's fine in All-New Avengers. A little bratty, but that's it. Despite the "diverse" cast, ANADA is as apolitical as it gets. Yet, the second Waid writes a story for this annual, out come the political digs! Even though it still carries the All-New Avengers name.

[HarryTrotter]

Its more of a dig at fandom,I guess?Outside of SJW bit.
And from what I saw,the book often took jabs at people complaining about diverse cast,so not really a new thing.But I admit I havent read an actual issue of it.
I ended up reading Thunderbolts #3.Points to Zub for remembering these characters have 10 or so(in universe) experience.And he could pretty much rename the whole thing Bucky and Friends.

[HarryTrotter]

Its a day ending in y as a Marvel employee takes to CBR to insult readers.Because that was so deep and philosophical,and everyone who didnt like it is an idiot.

[trebean]

Its a day ending in y as a Marvel employee takes to CBR to insult readers.Because that was so deep and philosophical,and everyone who didnt like it is an idiot.

I remember Tom Brevoort and Dan Slott complaining about how sites like Bleeding Cool were spoiling stories and taking the fun out of comics then immediately the day after Civil War II Issue #3's big death is then reported by CNN (or Time, I forgot). Like how the heck is that any different?

Its more of a dig at fandom,I guess?Outside of SJW bit.
And from what I saw,the book often took jabs at people complaining about diverse cast,so not really a new thing.But I admit I havent read an actual issue of it.
I ended up reading Thunderbolts #3.Points to Zub for remembering these characters have 10 or so(in universe) experience.And he could pretty much rename the whole thing Bucky and Friends.

I really wanted to like this series but the art, it just looks so Rob Liefeld-Lite, and the writing isn't really something to write home about. Parker-Bolts it is not.

[HarryTrotter]

We have been complaining about Malins artwork for few months now,so I cant really add anything there.Good news is hes leaving soon.

Also recently,we mentioned Marvel spoiling their own works,a bit further down in this thread.My point was,that once again,somebody at Marvel adopted an incredibly straw-men tactic.Surprise,I know.As in,if you didn't like Spencers Captain America,its because you were too dumb to get it,not because he might have done something wrong.You can find a million excuses,but your not fooling anyone into thinking your one gimmick C.A comic is the best work of literature in this century.Red Skull mind controlled Captain America.There is nothing deep,grand in scope or even remotely  new there.

[trebean]

We have been complaining about Malins artwork for few months now,so I cant really add anything there.Good news is hes leaving soon.

Also recently,we mentioned Marvel spoiling their own works,a bit further down in this thread.My point was,that once again,somebody at Marvel adopted an incredibly straw-men tactic.Surprise,I know.As in,if you didn't like Spencers Captain America,its because you were too dumb to get it,not because he might have done something wrong.You can find a million excuses,but your not fooling anyone into thinking your one gimmick C.A comic is the best work of literature in this century.Red Skull mind controlled Captain America.There is nothing deep,grand in scope or even remotely  new there.

Is he leaving? I thought that there'll just be a different artist for 2 issues then he's back? The only Marvel Book I'm really buying is Vision, I've temporarily dropped Cho Hulk since I don't want anything to do with Civil War II, shame that Frank Cho left art duties though, was that ever explained? I'm not even sure if I am gonna pick up Cho Hulk since I'm almost sure that nearly post-Civil War II the book would all be launching back at a "Special" $5 Price like the start of ANAD (How no one gives Marvel dren for this I have no idea why, Image and IDW I can see, they have waaay better paper and print quality compared to Marvel's almost see through pages, not even kidding some pure white pages you can almost see through the next page). I still find it hilarious how Rich (the guy who runs Bleeding Cool) was hyping up Spencer's CA saying how it's gonna be Cap's Anatomy Lesson Moment (Straight outta Moore's Swamp Thing) and then the next issue it's revealed that surprise, it's another fakeout.

[HarryTrotter]

Another funny thing we commented before,Rich said the EXACT same thing about Al Ewing.(He compares pretty much everyone to Alan Moore,for some reason.)
Thou,I have kinda changed my opinion on Al Ewing.Hes pretty the best writer Marvel currently has.Which is pretty much like having the biggest **** in the Unsullied army,as Bron said once.

[Silver Shocker]

Don't agree on Ewing. Spencer on Ant-Man and Kelly on Spider-Man/Deadpool are both better. I also think Waid on All New Avengers is better. I care about what happens in those books. New Avengers just kinda exists. It's T-Bolts-tier in my book.

I love a good Game of Thrones reference as much as anyone (vulgar as it may be) but I'm not nearly that jaded when it comes to Marvel. Most of the books I'm buying are Marvel to this day and the only ones I can say I'm not entirely enjoying are NA and TBolts, and even those have some redeeming qualities.

I was actually considering posting the Spencer CBR article here, assuming it's the same article. He said he didn't expect it to be a controversy. Maybe I'm overly jaded, but I have a hard time believing that. Breevoort already lied, so in for a penny, in for a pound, right? I think they just needed to bring up the run again because people aren't talking about it as much anymore. No publicity is bad publicity, right?

I remember Tom Brevoort and Dan Slott complaining about how sites like Bleeding Cool were spoiling stories and taking the fun out of comics then immediately the day after Civil War II Issue #3's big death is then reported by CNN (or Time, I forgot). Like how the heck is that any different?

I probably shouldn't say anything, but you asked, so I'll answer. The difference is one side is a thief, and the other side isn't. Say what you will about CNN or whoever blowing the big reveal in CWII (I do agree it's a d*ck move, but I'm also not reading Civil War II), they play ball with Marvel. They go through the official channels, and everyone involved (except the readers, obviously) benefit and get what they want. It's a symbiotic relationship. (Sadly, I must concede that that is equally true for sites like CBR and Newsarama). Bleeding Crap's relationship to Marvel (and DC, ect) is that of a parasitic one. It's "gimmie gimmie gimmie" with very little respect to the creators who make this work possible. I'd say they're scans_daily with ads, but scans_daily members will ban a creator's work from the comm if that creator doesn't want them posting scans of it.

[HarryTrotter]

JK about that(we all know Kelly is the best there is  ),but considering the overall roster,Ewing doesnt look so bad.Just my opinion,but New Avengers got a lot better with time;after a pretty weak start.
Call me cynical,but the only reason Spencer and some others got the "big" titles is because Fraction,Remender and Hickman left.He was not picked because hes the next Alan Moore,but because he was around.And Im still convinced that writing and art duties are decided via a dartboard at Marvel,btw.

On the second thing;do Brevoort,Slott and Rich really need a reason for an internet argument?It just what they do.

[Silver Shocker]

Re Spencer ect: agreed. Superior Foes and Ant-Man are fun, but I don't look at those and go "YES! This is the guy who must write the next majorly-hyped status quo-shaking event book storyline". Sometimes it's ok to for books to just be a low-key fun affair and not some epic thing you "have" to keep up on.

Second thing: yep. And the funny thing is, Breevort, Slott and Wacker, when he was doing the books, really seemed to think they could say anything they wanted online and it wouldn't effect sales positively or negatively because the people complaining online "didn't count". Yeah, ask Sony how that worked out for them.  *troll hat firmly on*

[HarryTrotter]

Well,my point exactly.But,ofc,Spencer has a higher opinion of himself.And tries to sell the story that average reader cant get his story.So grand in scope it will involve 2-3 super-mega-events.Deflecting the blame a bit?

Which kinda ties into the second thing,since Marvel executives have been doing it since they discovered internet.(And a good number of fans adopted that policy.Because if somebody doesn't like your newest change-hes a racist,or sexist or something *ist.)Just accuse fans that they didnt read the comic,but got the wrong info from some nefarious blogger.Problem solved.
I know that style has been really off-putting to me,but I wonder how many other readers got the same feeling?

[Silver Shocker]

Well, I don't know about the majority of people reading the books, but online there's definitely no shortage of people who can't stand those kind of disingenuous assertions. Speaking for myself, I get a sense of "pick your battles". There are some who spend all day going back and forth with Slott or whoever on CBR or Twitter or what have you. Me? I don't have the energy for that. I don't see the point either; the other side is never going to see your point so it's almost a waste of time to debate with them. I'll talk about it here sometimes, but that's about it.

Haven't read the Spencer interview, but you know what? From the sounds of it, I think maybe that's for the best. I still like him as a writer, and I'd rather not rapidly lose respect for him. That "the average reader can't understand my story" bit sounds like the height of arrogance. Some say you should try to separate the artist from the art, and I think that might be sound advice.

[HarryTrotter]

I try to avoid online argument in general,so same thing.
Variation on "never meet your heroes",but when you see people who are supposed to be professionals arguing over dumb things,it kills the magic.
Thou there are almost reverse cases.His tweets are the best thing Rob Liefeld wrote,for example.

[HarryTrotter]

http://www.popsci.com/marvel-announces-stem-devoted-comic-book-campaign?src=SOC&dom=tw
Variant Covers.Yey...
Im only sharing it because for a split second I thought they hooked up with Steam(game distributor).
Which maybe wouldnt be so stupid as it sounds.But no,different STEAM.
Thou Im not sure how variant covers should get kids interested in science.Seeing kids are not a big part of Marvel audience.

[trebean]

http://www.popsci.com/marvel-announces-stem-devoted-comic-book-campaign?src=SOC&dom=tw
Variant Covers.Yey...
Im only sharing it because for a split second I thought they hooked up with Steam(game distributor).
Which maybe wouldnt be so stupid as it sounds.But no,different STEAM.
Thou Im not sure how variant covers should get kids interested in science.Seeing kids are not a big part of Marvel audience.

Not the first time Marvel used a kid-friendly cause to push out more variants. I think nearly every title has like 2-3 or even 5 Variants (Off the top of my head, the Death of X Variants, the just a variant Variant, the Action Figure Variant, the Civil War 2 Variants) and they're all incentive based too, so that's even more moolah. And supporting STEAM, that's gonna net them more brownie points with the casual audience.

[HarryTrotter]

Im aware they have a bunch of variant covers,I mentioned these because of a bit odd theme(well odder?).And I dont really understand how Spiderman with a microscope should get kids interested in science.And all the profits from the covers still goes to Marvel,so they are not helping anyone but Marvel.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Apparently they've announced that they new Iron Man isn't going to be named Iron Man, but Ironheart.  Which means she's not Iron Man.

I mean, I don't care what they call her, but whey say she's the new Iron Man, when they aren't going to call her that.

[trebean]

Apparently they've announced that they new Iron Man isn't going to be named Iron Man, but Ironheart.  Which means she's not Iron Man.

I mean, I don't care what they call her, but whey say she's the new Iron Man, when they aren't going to call her that.

More Page Views = More Ad Money
I mean what would get more clicks? "Invincible Iron Man gets new main character Riri Williams as Iron Heart" or "Black Teenager replaces Iron Man in Invincible Iron Man"? It's not like this tactic is working much other than the first issue anyway. Hydra Cap sold tons sure but now it's being overtaken by Aquaman on the same issue # no less.

[HarryTrotter]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvel-comics-november-2016-solicitations-civil-war-ii-avengers
Yeah,IVX #0...thats happening.Just noticed they have Mike Deodado--drawing Thanos?Seriously?I guess Foolkiller sounds interesting.Bemis is pretty good with comedy.
Spiderman/Deadpool #11 is yet another fill in issue-where they meet Penn and Teller.I can live with that.