Because... more Star Wars is never a bad thing:
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ICYMI
Jon Favreau(Iron Man) has been developing the first live action Star Wars television series. Initial speculation started with the series setting, which was post Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. It was then revealed the series will center around Mandalorians and/or their culture. The latest news has now said that while Favreau is writing and producing the series, episodes will be directed by Alan Taylor(Game of Thrones) and Dave Filoni(The Clone Wars/Rebels). Also, set to star in the series as possibly the lead and "lone gunman" as described is Game of Thrones' and Narcos' Pedro Pascal.
No trailer as of yet. They haven't started filming, but it is said to be released on Disney Play, Disney's streaming service in late 2019.
Sounds pretty cool. I would watch that.
Actually scratch that. Lucasfilm and Favreau have released this pic:
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I did see that, and that looks pretty sweet. :)
So update on The Mandalorian: supposedly Taika Waititi is doing the voice of IG88. Can't say I'm thrilled about that. If Korg from Thor Ragnarok (or Ragnarok in general, really) is any indication, he's about to butcher IG88 like he butchered Korg.
Now in fairness, pretty much everything fleshing out IG88 is no longer canon, but that was also true for Thrawn, and Filoni and crew still made a concentrated effort to get Thrawn as accurate as possible (the Ysalimiri didn't make it in, but they got a visual cameo in the very first scene Thrawn's show in). IG88 was pretty much the Star Wars equivalent of Brainiac - indeed, Corey Burton did the voice of an IG88-style droid in the pilot of Clone Wars with largely the same voice - is he now going to be a laid back, jokey character? To be honest I thought Simon Pegg as Dengar in Clone Wars was a departure too - but this would be more of a departure.
But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. I've been before.
Yes, that would be unfortunate.
I gotta say I wasn't the biggest fan of T:R. It seemed so much of a departure from Thor story, IMO. So I don't know what supposed to be so special with Taika Waititi a single bit. And you're right. A Brainiac/Hal sort of characterization would be how I'd like to see IG-88. Waititi's kind of a weird choice. But I'm sure Celebration in a few weeks is going to bring us more information and gotta imagine a trailer as well.
I stay hopeful.
So Disney+ actually went live, not at 6:00am, but I actually booted it up, prepped my subscription package and see the UI. To my surprise, the first episode was loaded up and I clicked it to see if it was a preview or something, but it was the whole thing and I watched it.
It was amazing!
For the non-Star Wars fans, first of all,
NO, that was NOT who you think it is!" As I said, the show takes place in the aftermath of Return of the Jedi and it had a
real old west, Sergio Leone vibe to it from the start. Entering a bar, turning heads, wind whipping and the bartender wiping down a counter. Overall, the show had it's comical parts, fitting with some of the cameos from famous comedians. Some obvious standouts were Werner Herzog, his voice and presence was nigh unsettling but just pulled you in more. Beyond that was Taika Waititi! Star Wars seriously has a strong debate in fan circles of who's your favorite droid and his was a strong entry to that match up! And of course what many cannot stop talking about is the ending! It was quite the surprise and just makes you want to see more. Not just see where the story goes, but to see more about this character!
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Like I said, No, that was NOT who you think it is! I'm reading people thinking that the Mando is Boba Fett(or it was Boba Fett shown when he walked into their "lair". It wasn't. Also of course at the end, the baby was NOT Yoda. The show doesn't take place in the Republic, but the Empire. The baby is one of Yoda and Yaddle's species(same are calling her "Yoddle") and given that the only two members of the species we've seen in the entire saga are Force Sensitive, it is being rumored that the baby is Force Sensitive and the Empire is trying to capture Force Sensitive children. Also, of course the droid was IG-11, not the more famous from Empire Strikes Back IG-88. But not only was he just a flat out badboy, but his insistence in trying to self-destruct to destroy capture was hilarious! The scene that probably was the most intriguing was the Mandalorian Lair, with various Mandalorians in various armor and colors and one, the "Armoror" referring to "Foundlings", which the Mando said he was once one as well. Makes me wonder if this was something Mandalorians do, adopt outsiders like the Mando and Jango Fett and make them Mandalorians not by blood but by culture.
The Easter Eggs and hallmarks were plentiful! From the speeder flying akin to ANH. Carbon Freezing bounties. The long-arm he has was the same one Boba Fett had in the Holiday Special. Several aliens not seen in a while, a Kubaz, Rodian, Quarren, Ugnaught, and THREE different races of Niktos. There was soooo much detail! Another detail many might have missed was when he was fying into the Guild's headquaters, in view you can see a Lancer-class ship, which is also the same one used by a character from Star Wars Rebels: Ketsu Onyo, who was a Mandalorian associated with Sabine Wren. Which is to say it's hard for me to imagine it is NOT her here.
Overall though, it's a great beginning to the series. A lot of action and intrigue and surprises. Carl Weathers, Nick Nolte's characters were good and quite memorable. Of course with new episodes scheduled to release on Friday, the next episode will come out in just a few days. Likely midnight EST instead of Netflix that waits for Midnight Pacific. Really eager to see where it takes us next!
Quite enjoyed it. Yes, I was pleasantly surprised by Taika Watitti's IG-11. He was a lot better than I thought he'd be. I found him more HK-47 than Korg, the voice totally worked, and yes, the running gag with him was pretty funny.
Not surprised that there's some deep lore references here, considering Filoni's involvement.
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We also had the Blurgg (aka the "big frog creature" as I like to call it), which I recognized from the Clone Wars, Rebels and Star Wars the Old Republic. Then there's the door man droid from Jabba's Palace, I got a kick out of that.
Not surprised to see there was a Clone Wars/Rebels reference in there, again, considering Filoni. Not only that, the bad uys hunting Force-sensitive children? That was a plot in the Clone Wars.
Looking forward to more.
Just finished the second episode and I'm still digging this show. I mean, I knew I would, but to see the level of detail in the show STILL amazes me. I suppose that's part of my biggest disappointment so far is that we pretty much have two episodes, one of 40 minutes and this one with 30 minutes. The episodes are not just short, but far shorter than I expected. But what counteracts it all is, even though it's 30 minutes, there's no fluff. There's no commercials. No long and unnecessary opening sequence. It's just all show and it makes that 30 minutes seem so much more! And what they do with those 30 minutes makes not just fans happy but casual folks that don't watch the movies and pay attention to the books and games like I do.
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This show use has used so many hallmarks from the Original Trilogy and Star Wars. The reusing of the Yoda-Species. Other familiar aliens. The cantina like scene. Now Jawas. This episode almost felt like a spin-off of those first 20 minutes of Star Wars before we meet Luke.
But like I said, beyond just the familiar, what I'm MORE impressed with is the connection to the overall universe. Like I actually cheered when I saw Ketsu's Onyo's Shadow Caster. Seeing an IG droid in action was a treat. The watching aliens play Sabacc in the background. Mandalorians and besker. And in this episode, we see not just the background of stuff we knew or heard about in the OT, like Darth Vader warning about "No disintegrations" and Jawas being disgusting little creatures. They were rodent like and sloppy. But beyond that I recognized the vibro-weapons they used. Ugnaughts technology aptitude. The Mandalorian's armor and connection to weaponry. So much to make me want to look forward to what else they do and include! This show has been so much fun so far!
Yeah, still pretty good. Didn't even notice the second episode was shorter. That's probably a point in the show's favor.
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Yes, seeing a disintegration was neat, as well as the vibroblade. But what amused me the most was that the Sandcrawler sequence reminded me of climbing one in Super Star Wars. Not sure if that's what they were going for, but it amused me regardless.
Wanted to say my thoughts on the last two episodes of the Mandalorian:
Chapter 4 reminded me a lot of The Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven, and I have to assume that was intentional. Feloni did a Seven Samurai homage in an episode of Clone Wars, so while it was a story I've seen before in Star Wars, it was pretty cool on its own merits.
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It's also the episode that brings in Gina Carano, who I thought was quite good. She had a lot more dialogue in this than she did in Deadpool.
The Scoutwalker in this was effectively menacing, the only time I've seen a single Scout Walker be scary by itself outside of the video games where you had to fight one on foot. The red lights almost seemed like a homage to the Reliant from Wrath of Khan. It was a little big Rogue One, in that regard.
Props to Bryce Dallis Howard - I guess she can direct well.
Chapter 5...was different than Chapter 4...
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Can't help but feel letdown by Ming-Na Wen's appearance in this. Way to waste your Agent May, Mandorian! She's only in 1 episode, only a handful of scenes, and doesn't kick nearly as much butt as Gina Carano did, and then she's gunned down by whover that other guy was supposed to be. I know this show's called "The Mandolorian" and it's got less than 10 episodes in its first season, but considering how much of fan favorite bada$$ Agent May is on Agents of Shield I was kinda expecting something more impressive.
On the other hand, this episode has some of the best fanservice in the entire show. We see the actual Mos Eisley Cantina, albeit with completely different people there - the EV droid there was a nice touch. Even had a female voice, in what I have to assume is a reference to EV-9D9's official status as a female.
We also did Pit Droids and Swoop Bikes, neat stuff.
Okay, I'm thinking a consensus is saying that Episode 5 was one of the weaker entries, but Episode 6.... phew! I really think I enjoyed every minute of it! Every second. I mean I typically have liked most of what I've seen and have been sold on it from the beginning, but in my opinion 6 was the best of the season!
Thoughts on Ep5
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I liked it well enough. A lot of people say it was slower and a big name was "wasted", but as a fan, to see a return not just to tatooine, not just to Mos Eisley but to "Mos Eisley Cantina" was a VERY welcome sight. It was also fun to see and give characterization to Tusken Raiders as well. Pit Droids are always fun. So there were some definite takeaways. Outside of the boots at the end...
And on to Ep6
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First of all, for the most part most of the series have been compared to the Western motif, not just because of the actions and theme, but IMO, the setting as well. Most episodes have been in small towns, farms or in desert enviornments. But this one... It was ALL in space. On board a space station and then a prison barge, so it was a departure from that sense. It started off as a take off of a heist-like story, but it gave me the real feel of a Roleplaying game. Different characters getting together for a mission/quest. A Twi'lek, a Devaronian(Clancy Brown is pretty dope in everything), a droid and Bill Burr :lol: ). But getting on the barge and taking on the droids was a neat touch, but the part that really got me was Fukuyama's direction from there on was EPIC! The stand off with the pilot, Wingfield and Mando was intense and gripping. But from there, the betrayal and them getting the drop on Mando causing him to escape and then play hunter that was soooo fun! But when Mando takes Qin back to Ran and Ran's attempt to betray Mando but he has the drop on them and we see the X-Wings show up, piloted by the shows directors(nice touch) and to see some more familiar Star Wars tropes, was good to see. And of course, "the Child" was always adorable. I think Favereau is contractually obligated to do something disgustingly adorable every episode. But The Prisoner was just soo much fun!
And as a side note...
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We have Greef Karga getting shot in a plate of Beskar. A well resourced Imperial who just happens to disappear during a city-wide shootout. A Rebel commando being befriended and a mysterious farm-woman that's a better shot than both her and Mando. A mysterious pair of boots showing up at a underworld assiassin's unmoving body. And now a team of mercenaries that betrayed Mando and were all kept alive?
There's NO. WAY. this characters are not going to be seen again. Too many loose ends. I'm expecting a big finish!
I'm kind of thinking Lone Wolf and Cub here...
^ Very easy comparison to think of. I thought of it myself. It's a formula that's worked many times before and it works here.
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I think a big part of conceptualizing this series was someone involved said they needed something or someone cute that the younger audiences would latch onto (I suspect little kids would likely find the Mandalorian boring otherwise, but perhaps I'm not giving today's youth enough credit there). But I also think they knew the Mandalorian needed SOME kinda of heroic character trait if he was going to be our protagonist. I guess you can't make a Star Wars (in the realm of the shows and movies anyway) without a protagonist at least as heroic as a pre-New Hope Han Solo. All of the stuff outside the films and this show (the novels, comics, games) are full of stuff starring outright villains, but I guess here it might be too niche? I mean, I'd watch the heck out of a Darth Maul live action series, but I don't know if Disney would have any interest in making one.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on December 15, 2019, 05:00:49 PM
Okay, I'm thinking a consensus is saying that Episode 5 was one of the weaker entries, but Episode 6.... phew! I really think I enjoyed every minute of it! Every second. I mean I typically have liked most of what I've seen and have been sold on it from the beginning, but in my opinion 6 was the best of the season!
Yeah, 5 was a bit of a let down for me, minus the fanservice. I got a kick of out of that, but I did hear someone somewhere there was too much of it. It reminds me of Rogue One, some people thought that film had too many cameos and winks and nods, and I've found the Mandalorian has tread similar territory the whole run. As I've said before, I'm a fan, so if they want to throw in some fanservice, I'm almost certain to enjoy it.
Thoroughly enjoyed 6. It reminded me a bit of the early spaceship raid levels of KOTOR mixed with Firefly mixed with some Clone Wars (then again, with Filoni involved, no big surprise there.)
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One of my two favorites parts of that episode was listening to the Devaronian snarl and realizing it was Clancy Brown, aka the voice of Savage Oppress from the Clone Wars. I'd recognize that snarl anywhere (literally what I said). Appropriately, he also voiced a rival bounty hunter, Montross, in the video game Star Wars: Bounty Hunter (starring Jango Fett). Come to think of it, I don't know if I can think of a Clancy Brown role that sucked. Even when the material is below par (Hulk and the Agents of Smash), he's consistently reliable. Perfect example, Cowboys vs Aliens wasn't a great movie, but he was far and away my favorite part of it.
My other favorite part, was indeed, Filoni's cameo. That amused me. I've heard Matt Lanter (the voice of Anakin from Clone Wars) also has a cameo in the episode, but I didn't catch that one.
QuoteBut when Mando takes Qin back to Ran and Ran's attempt to betray Mando but he has the drop on them and we see the X-Wings show up, piloted by the shows directors(nice touch) and to see some more familiar Star Wars tropes, was good to see. And of course, "the Child" was always adorable. I think Favereau is contractually obligated to do something disgustingly adorable every episode. But The Prisoner was just soo much fun!
Fun fact, I was 100% expecting Ran to just kill Qin right there, just to show him as a scumbag who wanted the pleasure of killing him himself. I guess the actual writers of the show are a lot more clever than I am, because the ending we got was a lot impressively "Star Wars."
I did find it bit strange that they were still piloting X-Wings and wearing flight suits that looked like they came right out of Episode IV. Maybe it's because I read some of the pre-Disney Expanded Universe novels, and those had new ships, but I kinda figured the New Republic (which got namedropped here) would have new ships and new uniforms. Then again, fans (myself included) have been confused about this "New Republic"/"Resistance" business since episode 7 came out, and that hasn't changed much since (haven't read the new books, so I'm purely going off the movies and tv shows)
QuoteAnd as a side note...
We have Greef Karga getting shot in a plate of Beskar. A well resourced Imperial who just happens to disappear during a city-wide shootout. A Rebel commando being befriended and a mysterious farm-woman that's a better shot than both her and Mando. A mysterious pair of boots showing up at a underworld assiassin's unmoving body. And now a team of mercenaries that betrayed Mando and were all kept alive?
There's NO. WAY. this characters are not going to be seen again. Too many loose ends. I'm expecting a big finish!
I'm sure you're right. A lot of people have made a big deal out of who it was with the boots (some say it was just Giancarlo Esposito's character, which I assumed it was) but the running crazy theory is The Fett is about to show up. Not sure I believe it but it would be interesting.
In any case, there's promotional material out there that hasn't happened in the show, depicting Gina Carano's character alongside IG-11, so I just assumed they'd both be back. Case in point, when Carano's character was show in the recap at the beginning of episode 6, I just assumed she was going to appear in the episode, since it's pretty much a safe bit in ANY show, that anything shown in the recap is going to be relevant to the plot of the episode you're about to watch.
Time will tell. In any case, I have spoken.
Heads up!
A report says Season 2 of The Mandalorian to feature Rosario Dawson as.......
ASHOKA TANO!!!
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA........ :o
I suppose I'll finally get around to watching this over the lockdown, ha.
Personally, I'd prefer they avoid any connection to the Prequel stuff, but I don't have any particular feelings about that character.
Quote from: BentonGrey on March 21, 2020, 03:13:43 AM
I suppose I'll finally get around to watching this over the lockdown, ha.
Personally, I'd prefer they avoid any connection to the Prequel stuff, but I don't have any particular feelings about that character.
Well, that's the thing, Not that Disney have seem to pretend the prequels didn't exist. It took up until last year for them to even acknowledge The Clone Wars and how good it is. As I am currently rewatching(to catch up with Season 7) Ahsoka was largely annoying at the beginning, but in the latter seasons to Rebels and book, she's gotten MUCH more interesting. I, for one am TOO excited! Word around the campfire is...
Spoiler
This would be a bit more than a cameo, but she'll likely be a plot device Din Djarinn to find out about The Child's "people", Forcer users like her, which will also lead to her own series.
But I'll believe it when I see it. Happy that she's on board though. Heard other rumors of other characters showing up as well. We'll see.
Indeed. Part of the legacy of the Clone Wars and Ahsoka herself is seeing steady improvement over time until you just remember the thing as being very good.
I've often tried to remember that when TCW came out it got scrutinized by many (myself included) for a few different reasons.
I've been getting into the SW rumor mill in the last few months due to how curious a product EpIX turned out to be, and one thing I've heard come up repeatedly is a new animated series (that may or may not be to Rebels what Rebels was to TCW). It's pretty much confirmed since there was a job listing a few months ago for a Lucasfilm/Star Wars 3D animated project and Dee Bradely Baker (voice of the clones) recently tweeted about a super secret project he's working on (for the record, as the official sub for Temura Morrison, he also got to voice Boba Fett in a video game or two)
^^ Benton: If Ahsoka's character in Mandalorian S2 is anything like the series as a whole, whether you're a fan of the character or not (or even familiar with her stories firsthand) properly won't be an issue since the
other characters in the Mandolorian will likely be meeting her for the first time as well. That kind thing happened quite a bit in Rebels (or to give another example, the MCU films) so I imagine it will be fine.
QuoteWell, that's the thing, Not that Disney have seem to pretend the prequels didn't exist. It took up until last year for them to even acknowledge The Clone Wars and how good it is. As I am currently rewatching(to catch up with Season 7) Ahsoka was largely annoying at the beginning, but in the latter seasons to Rebels and book, she's gotten MUCH more interesting. I, for one am TOO excited! Word around the campfire is...
Honestly, I think Disney just valued TCW as a "killer app" for their Disney+ streaming service, and one that could be produced and release very quickly at that (the first few episodes are almost entirely composed of the "story reels" from about 4-6 years ago with finished animation and about 1 new scene each).
Anyway, lest I forget, one other thing, Micheal Biehn (Kyle Reese from Terminator, Corporal Dwayne Hicks from Aliens) will appear in S2 as well. I can get behind that. Him being in this feels appropriate for a series that features Carl Weathers and Nick Nolte. I don't know why The Mandalorian of all things is turning into a Star Wars version of The Expendibles, but I can't deny it's cool.
So I had some friends over last tonight to celebrate my birthday (one friend got me the recent Jedi Fallen Order video game, which I'm quite pleased to have now - I've heard it's
really good) And among other things, we talked some Star Wars (as often happens) and now I've got SW on the brain again big time. So time for a Star Wars roundup. And since most of it's related to the Mandalorian, it'll be here.
So between official announcements and rumors, the Mandalorian S2 is shaping up to
triple down on the Clone Wars/Rebels content, to the degree that it may just become the "now Filoni's just showing off" show. It's like Crisis on Infinite Star Wars.
So double checking, Wikipedia lists all the characters as "official" with the sources being news outlets with Phantom Sources. So I'm treating the ones I've heard as rumors.
Oh, double checking, looks like I've missed a LOT: (this is now the "general Star Wars thread" now apparently)
-A new Starfighter game called Star Wars Squadrons just got announced. I grew up on the Rogue Squadron games (loved em) and I'm thrilled at the prospect of jumping in a SW cockpit in a good game again (The modern BF 2 campaign was forgettable, but the starfighter segments were a definite highlight.) I've not watched the trailer yet, but I've been informed that 1) it's been in development for two years now 2) It will feature a full campaign alternating between Rebel and Imperial (Yay) and 3) will feature (including in the trailer) Hera from Rebels, Wedge Antilles and stuff from The New Jedi Order storyline from the pre-Disney EU Whaaa?
-Director Sam Hargrave is directing an episode of the Mandalorian S2. He directed the Netflix exclusive action movie Extraction, starring Chris Hemsworth as an armed forces guy who fights like John Wick. Pretty plotless movie with really good action, and because it came out in 2020 it supposedly got insanely good ratings and they're already talking sequels and spinoffs. I guess Hargrave is now a huge get now and I imagine he'll do a great Manalorian.
-Rogue One writer Garry Whitta wants Danny Trejo to be on the Mandalorian. I think he'd fit right in among the inspired cast of guest stars the show has.
I'm putting the unconfirmed ones under the cut. Proceed at your own discretion.
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-Temura Morrison is returning to play Boba Fett, who apparently was the guy we saw at the end of that one episode. Apparently we'll see a bit of him in S2 and a LOT of him in S3. Supposedly we will in fact see more of Ming-Na Wen as Fennic Shand.
-Timophy Olyphant will be playing a character from the Aftermath series of novels who has gotten possession of Boba Fett's Mandalorian armor. Very, very interesting. The story back when the Fett movie was supposedly being made was that some dude was gonna kill Morrison's Fett and steal the armor, making Fett once again a mystery man. A lot of oldschool SW fans were apparently in favor of that idea, I personally despised it, being a fan of TCW and Boba's development in that. Almost wondering if that's finally going to happen (this show supposedly exists as a direct result of that movie never being made)
-Captain Rex from Clone Wars and Rebels will appear.
-Katee Sackhoff is playing former Mandalorian Death Watch member Bo-Katan in live action. How appropriate.
-Supposedly The Mandalorian will be spinning off a live action Star Wars "mini-universe" with Filoni at the helm. See, I can 100% believe that. The last three times I can recall seeing a big genre runaway hit like this they were called Iron Man, Arrow and John Wick.
Rebels sequel is apparently still happening, but also a TCW spinoff featuring Echo and the Bad Batch from the Final Season, along with Ahsoka and Rex. I should have known. I was thinking that last night, and for a while, that Disney would commission more Clone Wars based on how much S7 kicked a$$. I've long said for years (along with many online) that Filoni has proven himself time and time again to be The Chosen One.
Bad Batch was decent but was functionally made 6 years ago, just with minor scene changes and updated graphics, and has functionally nothing to do with the rest of the season, and series, storyline. The middle arc, well, I didn't hate and I liked enough of it, but literally everyone else I've heard comment on it hated it, and the final arc is a goshdarn masterpiece and the best Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi. Yeah, if this is a real thing. I'm on board. Now give me the Boba Fett/Cad Bane team up arc, gosh darn it! Ooh, plot twist, Cad Bane's still alive and he's in The Mandalorian....or maybe Hondo shows up... Oh, and give me a sequel to "The Bombad Jedi" called "The Bombad Sith" where Jar Jar has to pretend to be a Sith Lord.
And lastly, brace yourselves....Supposedly the Kenobi series will feature a now more somber and depressed Jar Jar Binks.
I'm actually pretty much totally on board with this. Pretty much everyone seemed to agree that an Obi-Wan spinoff with Ewan was a good idea but the one question on everyone's mind would be why he would come out of his exile on Tatooine. I personally figured (and they may very well still do this) it would be very much like Star Trek: Picard, where he would help out several new characters the creators can build up. As for Mr. Binks, the new lore (the Aftermath novels) say he lived a poverty stricken life as a social pariah who made his living as a children's entertainer. Darth Jar Jar meme notwithstanding, noone's ever redeemed Binks in any meaningful way (he's one of the few things the two Clone Wars animated shows didn't improve on from the prequel films, at least IMO) and Ahmed Best seems like a really cool guy in real life (he was a very good sport about the Darth Jar Jar meme) and I actually kinda want him to play the character again in an official capacity now as a result (what I actually want is for EA to add Darth Jar Jar as a free update in the multiplayer of Battlefront II and get him to record new dialogue, but doesn't seem like it's happening anytime soon, even though they recently added the ability to play as BB-8 of all characters). The one thing that's been brought up, of course, is that, as well publicized online in the past year or so, Best suffered really serious depression in the wake of Jar Jar's critical thrashing so it's uncertain if he'd be comfortable playing a depressed Jar Jar. Time will tell I suppose.
:lol:
I heard most of these and when I saw the headline of that last one I assumed it would be someone else so I never looked, but that gave me a good giggle.
BTW, hope you've gotten through Fallen Order it's pretty awesome.
Fun Fact, all the lightsabers you can build in the game are available for you to build at Galaxy's Edge. I made my lightsaber match the one I made in the game! It's an exact replica!(okay, not exact, exact still pretty cool though!)
Hmm, if they made a straight update of X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, I'd buy the HECK out of that thing.
So Bad Batch got confirmed since my last post.
QuoteBTW, hope you've gotten through Fallen Order it's pretty awesome.
Haven't started it yet, I'm afraid. My backlog is truly outrageous. I'm probably going to read the prequel comic first.
How Long to Beat says 16-30 hours depending on whether you try to do all the extras. I could probably power through that. If I could beat KOTOR 2 I should be able to beat that.
QuoteHmm, if they made a straight update of X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, I'd buy the HECK out of that thing.
Disney/EA/whoever have rereleased SOME classic Star Wars video games from the Lucasarts vault (most recently, Episode 1 Racer) so it's not outside the realm of possibility. They've been dragging their heels on a lot of them.
In any case, I can say the new game is actually more of space sim in the style of those games (I was never really ever able to get into those, sad to say. A little too complex for my style) and not the more arcadey, Star-Fox-esque style of Rogue Squadron. So you might actually like it.
In any case, you may be interested to know that after doing some quick research, I see that it is on Steam and Good Old Games and mods to upgrade the graphics exist if that's something you'd be interested in.
So, Lady Grey and I finally watched the first episode. It was good, though not great. I'm definitely interested in the series. It had good action, and I like the 'man-with-no-name' vibe of the titular character. I'm looking forward to watching the rest, especially because I saw that:
Spoiler
Luke Skywalker himself cameos in a later episode! I can't express how happy that makes me! I would totally watch the HECK out of Mark Hamill just playing Luke, young or old, without the terrible setting of the new movies.
Oh Benton, sweet, innocent Benton....
I've been aching to gush about S2 of Mando, but sadly Shogun does not seem to be around, so I didn't bother. But this is certainly nice.
Congrats for taking the plunge! I hope you enjoy the journey. Mando is a truly great show, the most pirated show of 2020 and is the thing that made me learn to love Star Wars again, and S2....oh boy, you just wait....
S2 is by far the single best piece of new media I absorbed in 2020 (Crisis started in 2019, and even if it didn't, Mando was
probably better?), a bright shining star in 2020, and one of the single most amazing pieces of fiction I've EVER had the pleasure of absorbing. It starts with "episodic", moves into "more fanservice" and eventually gets to "Did I just see what I think I saw?" By the end of it, it is just pure magic, a real crowd-pleaser and something that feels like it was dreamed up in the most delirious fever dream of SW fans the world over. One episode in particular is said to have brought grown men to tears.
And course, Baby Yoda, whose existence is no secret by now, is just pure love.
Spoiler
Hardly surprising that you've heard of Luke's truly surreal appearance (which I've been told has brought many late-comers into the fold), but hopefully when you eventually arrive at it, the journey will be worth it. Even without the metric galaxy full of fanservice in S2, the show would have still been solid if it was just about a bounty hunter and his precious little baby.
On the topic of characters from the CGI cartoons showing up later, rest assured that just as Mando meets up with all these various characters for the first time, you can too, and still feel like you experienced something meaningful.
I know you've said your peace about a continued lack of interest in all things prequel-related, but there's a great quote that I've wanted to share that always makes me think of you. It's from one of my favorite Youtube reviewers, Jeremy Jahns, and it's in no way meant as a insult, but an encouragement to, as Obi-Wan once said "Take a step into a larger world" or perhaps broaden your "certain point of view".:
Quote"[...] and this next part's the most small-minded thing? I was like 'I don't want to. I don't want to watch anything that might validate or legitimize the prequels'. Like I said, I already said, small minded *&^%. That's a child's mindset, that's....why would you not watch something that might be good, in fear that it might be good, and so good, it might make something else feel better? Growth? I mean, age, am I right? That's the good thing about age."
~Jeremy Jahns, on "Star Wars: The Clone Wars, SWTCW - Final Season (My Thoughts)"
Oh and by the way, when you finish Mando S2....stay through the credits. Yes, we have the very first STAR WARS POST CREDIT SCENE! :thumbup:
In any case, I genuinely hope you enjoy the show and all it's crazy twists and turns. It's a true gem and an inspired labor of love, and I genuinely can't wait to see the now confirmed "Mando-verse" that we all knew full well was going to launch out of this, because even though Disney has gone completely insane with the number of SW shows and movies they're putting out, this corner of it is looking AMAZING! :thumbup:
Not to spoil too much in advance, but if everything transpires as us true Rebels have forseen, future developments should be watched with great interest, for they shall be a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one! DO IT!
You know a show's gotta be damn good if it's timeslot is going to be filled by WANDAVISION! :wub:
[EDIT]: Oh, I totally forgot. One of the biggest things I enjoyed about Mando S2 was the reaction to it online. Watching reaction videos to two of the last few episodes of S2 online was absolutely magical. And the memes, oh my goodness the memes. I haven't had this much fun dropping into a subreddit every week since S6 of Legends of Tomorrow (which, if you don't get the reference; S6 of Legends was the "zero eff's given season" where they just did any old insane, comedic, high concept thing they felt like, to the point that Caty Lotz was hamming it up so much someone I watched it with asked me if she was drunk while they were filming) The memes for the show (particularly on the subreddit) were some of the funniest and most entertaining memes I've ever read and were arguably as enjoyable or more enjoyable than the show itself. I have any entire
subfolder on my computer chock full of meme images for that one 8-episode season and most of them are only from two or three specific episodes.
They're all my perfect babies and I love them all and it's almost hard to pick a favorite. George saying "It's like poetry, so it rhymes". The show being a trojan horse to smuggle in other stuff. Baby Yoda's love of cookies. Cap understanding the references. People who don't get the references awkwardly sitting there on the couch with the people who do. Steve Carrell from the Office freaking out about what's about to happen. Anything involving that scene with Old Man Luke at the beginning of the Last Jedi where he throws the lightsaber away. But my favorite one in particular had to be "Hey Dave [Filoni], how much fanservice?" [Kylo Ren]:
MOOOORE!!!
Haha, that's a lot of enthusiasm, SS.
So, we finished season 1 and are two episodes into season 2. So far, I think my initial assessment is right on. It's good but not great. Of course, that means that, compared to everything after Return of the Jedi, it's freaking amazing. I'm quite enjoying it, though the show needs an editor. There's hardly an episode that goes by without a little moment or element that either doesn't make sense or just doesn't quite fit. In general, though, it's quite good, and I am really liking the 'tour of the SW universe' vibe it's got.
On a minor note that I've really loved, apparently the show is drawing heavily from the Ralph McQuarrie concept art in general and the old Star Wars book, The Illustrated Star Wars Universe in particular. The latter was one of my prized possessions when I was young. I even got Mark Hamil to sign it when I saw him at Dragon Con years and years ago, despite the fact that it didn't really have anything to do with him. The cool thing about it was that the book was an exploration, a deep dive, into the different locations, worlds, creatures, and customs of the Star Wars universe. It was more Star Wars in a time when such a thing didn't really exist (would that that had stayed the case in terms of movies...). Seeing those concepts brought to life in this loving and (mostly) expert fashion is really delightful.
As for the "larger world," I've been in it, and there's nothing there for me, thanks. Pretty much everything about the universe of the prequels and the new films repulses me or simply leaves me cold. The Prequels' take on the Jedi just felt so much less compelling and in line with the original films than did the stories that showed up in Tales of the Jedi and such. The saga of the Clone Wars (though I'm sure the cartoon has its strengths) and the rise of the Empire were deeply disappointing after the tantalizing hints from the Thrawn Trilogy and the like of splintering Old Republic power and Clone-lords driven mad. And of course, the new films giving me twisted, hollow shells of the stories and characters I loved while devaluing everything accomplished in the original movies left me with no desire to visit the setting they created.
The Star Wars universe that existed before the Prequels, with its limitless potential and its promise of fascinating stories and alluring histories just over the horizon was for me, warts and all, vastly superior to what we actually got. I'll stick with the old stories and enjoy things like this that can fit in with them.
Glad to hear you've found something in here to enjoy. I take no pleasure in telling you.....you should probably stop watching the show right here, at this specific episode.
QuoteOn a minor note that I've really loved, apparently the show is drawing heavily from the Ralph McQuarrie concept art in general and the old Star Wars book, The Illustrated Star Wars Universe in particular. The latter was one of my prized possessions when I was young. I even got Mark Hamil to sign it when I saw him at Dragon Con years and years ago, despite the fact that it didn't really have anything to do with him. The cool thing about it was that the book was an exploration, a deep dive, into the different locations, worlds, creatures, and customs of the Star Wars universe. It was more Star Wars in a time when such a thing didn't really exist (would that that had stayed the case in terms of movies...). Seeing those concepts brought to life in this loving and (mostly) expert fashion is really delightful.
This was a
major element of The Clone Wars, and something I enjoyed a lot about it. They released extensive concept art online alongside the show and I collected it voraciously.
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 15, 2021, 01:41:10 AM
Pretty much everything about the universe of the prequels and the new films repulses me or simply leaves me cold.
If the prospect of Temura Morrison as Boba Fett or Hayden coming back to play Darth Vader is repulsive to you, you're done. There's little to nothing left for you unless you want to see that treat at the end of S2 or you're really into that adorable little baby. This journey we're all on is apparently not one you're able to join us on.
There's even a pretty notable something from Ep VII-IX in here. If that's a turn off, you're not going to like where this story is going.
Spoiler
Snoke is in this.
Quoterepulses me or leaves me cold
I have varying levels of patience for new stuff. Some I hate, some just doesn't interest me, ha. :D
Well, that's all disappointing, but not terribly surprising. It may get to a point where I can't stomach it, but so far I've been able to ignore that stuff, though every mention or reference seems discordant to me. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying the show thus far.
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 15, 2021, 04:56:17 AM
Quoterepulses me or leaves me cold
I have varying levels of patience for new stuff. Some I hate, some just doesn't interest me, ha. :D
Well, that's all disappointing, but not terribly surprising. It may get to a point where I can't stomach it, but so far I've been able to ignore that stuff, though every mention or reference seems discordant to me. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying the show thus far.
"Apathy is death." Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
If prospects like Darth Maul as a crime boss, Anakin's apprentice meeting Anakin's son (or daughter), or the years long mysteries of the fates of Ezra Bridger or Jedi Padawan Bariss Offee, or, perhaps most aptly, whether the rightful ruler of Mandalore should be Bo-Katan or Sabine hold no appeal to you, your ability to enjoy the "Filoni-verse" will thin out considerably forward.
That's a shame, but at least I got to see moisture farmers and Sandpeople hunt a Krayt Dragon together.
That was some epic business. That poor bantha. :(
Though I'd like to take a moment to point out that for as great as the Krayt Dragon looked, the Pit Droids look NO BETTER than they did in the Phantom Menace in 1999! Those who say Mando possesses movie-level CGI are simply wrong.
I should also point out, in fairness, that the title character HIMSELF may be written out in a later season (rumor is Pedro Pascal is being extremely hard to work with, disliking the fact that you rarely see his face AND being upstaged by a puppet character who doesn't even talk) while the adorable little baby may be getting a reduced role going forward. This is (mostly) speculation on my part, but we may be one or two episodes away from the titular Mandalorian themselves being a character from The Clone Wars or Rebels.
Continuing to follow this "saga", with the views you've expressed, is like going into Infinity War and Endgame, but you only like, say, Black Panther and dislike literally everything else in the MCU, especially Ant-Man. The barrier/deterrent, if not inpenetratable, will nonetheless be significant.
On the other hand, if you are indeed a fan of the Timothy Zahn/Thrawn/Jorus C'Boath material.....outcome looks bright :D
That's a shame, because Pascal is doing a great job, really excellent and subtle work considering the limitations of the character. I've remarked several times to Lady Grey who pleased I am that they set out to make a show about a character that is always masked and they have actually let him stay masked. But if they fire Pascal, it's not like there would be any real problem with just replacing him as the character. Ha, who would know?
My mileage will probably depend on how obnoxious the new stuff is. So far it's been okay, and with the promise of a decent version of Luke Skywalker showing up, I'm willing to endure much!
I've heard people gush about the Mandolorian being masked the whole time, going all the way back to the start of S1, and I found it amusing considering the most iconic SW character (Darth Vader) was also a character who wore a mask that covered his face for 99% of his screentime.
One of the rumors is that Pedro will be relegated to a purely voice-over role, but I was unsurprised to learn that it wasn't exclusively him in the suit anyway. I just assumed that it was a stuntman at least some of the time.
QuoteBut if they fire Pascal, it's not like there would be any real problem with just replacing him as the character. Ha, who would know?
Not to spoil any specifics, but if you see the end of S2, you may have a better understanding of why I've said what I've said.
In any case, if Lady Grey wants to continue watching the show, by any means, continue. But make sure to wear your Original Trilogy-themed raincoat and goulashes, beware of Dianogas, and be prepared to wade neck deep in prequel and sequel trilogy-adjacent material. ;)
SS, that's true about Vader, but that was also in 70s and early 80s, and he was a nobody. These days, heaven forbid someone not see your face every scene!
Well, it would be STUPID not to put in a stuntman for some of those shots, since you literally won't be able to tell.
I just watched the Honest Trailers for it, and it feels pretty much spot-on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlxuSILjRl0
As for coping with the new garbage cluttering up my nice Star Wars tale, I am reading some of Zahn's other Star Wars novels right now. It's a nice palette cleanser. :D
I'm a very slow reader, so I'll have to settle for the comic book adaptations.
Watching the Honest Trailer for Mando S1 right now. It is, of course, really great.
"After the prequels literally ruined his childhood [...]"
It's so true. :D
"[...] in this tale of one man's destiny to clear an extremely low bar....BE THE BEST SINGLE DAD IN STAR WARS!!! [Shows Han, Vader and Palpy]" LOL it's so true.
[HT takes shots at Gina Carano's acting] Listen to Rhonda Rousey in Mortal Kombat 11, then come talk to me.
And yet, Honest Trailers couldn't make the show seem bad. I look forward to seeing them attempt to tear it down with S2.
Ha, great, right? I LOVED the Prequel line, obviously! :D
Yeah, Gina Carano is one of the 'off' elements that I mentioned above. Mostly the acting is good, but there are exceptions that pull you out of things a bit....
So, just watched the episode on Trask with the other Mandalorians. Apparently, they're from Clone Wars, and it was fine, because they felt like a natural-ish part of the universe and didn't shoehorn in anything that seemed discordant. I'm not entirely sure what I think about un-helmeting Mandalorians....
Well, then it sounds like the approach of Mando meeting these characters as he goes is working for you. That is the ideal for someone in your boat here.
The whole taking off the helmet thing...I don't know if this had something to do with the old books and comics, but in the Clone Wars and Rebels cartoons, characters like Bo-Katan (Katee Sackhoff) and Pre Visla (Jon Favereux) took their helmet off all the time. This whole thing with Mando/Din Djarin taking off his helmet seemed to not gel, but here he learn that is something of a traditionalist (one reviewer I watched compared it to how people have their own approach to religious beliefs) Rumor has it that Pascal discovering that these other characters take their helmets off while he doesn't made him quite irritable.
The whole helmet thing gets mocked in the second-to-last episode in a very meta way.
TBF, the helmetless thing goes back even beyond that... I don't know about the books, but TOR and KOTOR both feature Mandalorians taking off their helmets (and Benton, I love you, I get hate for prequels/sequels, but TOR is separate from all of that and it's amazing) and it was always one of those things people were questioning even from day one of the series.
That said... I can see him being upset about the Child upstaging him a bit (I don't think anyone realized just HOW big it was going to be) but I have to think Pedro knew going in about the helmet thing going in. Making that less of a thing going into later seasons was clearly part of the game plan (they got the S1 reveal out of it already).
@Benton, below is something for *after you finish S2*, but typing it now for those who have finished the series. Relates to stuff from Rebels to give you context, but it's kinda spoiler heavy.
Spoiler
So in the finale, much is made of Bo Katan and the Darksaber having to be won in combat and yada yada. However, Bo Katan was given the Darksaber originally... her sister flat out gave it to her so she could free Mandalore. Fans got all up in arms about the continuity issue... but IMO it's not an issue.
Bo Katan didn't earn the saber the first time, she was given it. And then, rather than leading Mandalore to freedom, Moff Gideon presumably schooled her and took the blade for himself (none of that happens in Rebels btw, Gideon having it at the end of S1 was a surprise). In her own eyes, and likely the eyes of her people, she's a loser... but winning the weapon from Gideon in combat would have restored her honor. However, Din doing the job instead, and trying to give it to her, AGAIN, would have been an even worse sleight. Essentially, the whole thing is Fate/the Force is beating her on the head with "no, you're not worthy of leading your people, but this dude you think of as a backwards cultist hick *is*"
TOR? KOTOR? Yeah, KOTOR is good stuff (though there are some discordant bits), but if I remember the old lore, the Mandalorians didn't remove their helmets. That's actually something that bothered me on Rebels, but that show had plenty of its own problems, outside of the lore.
Ha, I DEFINITELY can understand him thinking the puppet is upstaging him. Because it is. But it's delightful, so he should just get over himself, ha! He's doing a great job, and people are learning his name. It's impressive to be memorable and effective when acting through a mask.
I've seen (most?) of Rebels, though I don't remember it super well. In general, I found a lot of it pretty forgettable.
I actually forgot about Knights of the Old Republic, which is surprising, because I'm one of those fans who remembers it well and trumpets it as a "more elegant weapon for a more civilized age".
Tom as for the Mandolorian/Bo-Katan business - yup, that's about the size of it.
QuoteI've seen (most?) of Rebels, though I don't remember it super well. In general, I found a lot of it pretty forgettable.
You actually
watched Rebels? Color me impressed. Maybe there's hope for you yet.
On the plus side, this batch of episodes spoils the ending two or three ways over, so this way wouldn't have some of the surprises in Rebels ruined.
Rebels is remembered as a step down from TCW, and IMO that's fair. Other than Kanan and Thrawn (both of which were handled admirably), most of the high points were carried over from TCW. For a better understanding, I recommend the videos on TCW and Rebels by Youtuber The Cosmonaut Variety Hour.
I always thought TCW would have benefitted from a more central cast (supposedly they considered doing that early on) while Marcus (Cosmonaut) argued the benefits of TCW being an "anthology series". What "hurt" Rebels was 1. It was a bit more of a "kids show" 2. The main cast, outside of Kanan, wasn't even really that interesting. But, in a similar manner to Mando, you can watch it as a continuation, a self-contained show, or BOTH and still have some kind of good time.
Which brings me to....
Now all of that being said, I want to stress - when I say "Mando-verse" and "Filoniverse" I really do mean that - we're getting at least THREE spinoffs (even CGI Clone Wars followup Bad Batch is being thrown into the "batch" with Ming-Na Wen's Fennic Shand being featured in it), with Filoni and Faveraux being involved with pretty much everything, a Arrowverse-style crossover in the works, and some....other very intriguing things that may or may not be in the pipes. Mando's various plots will likely split off into other shows, so it's a bit like Marvel and DC's comics where you go from THIS book to THIS book to THIS book just to find out...for example, where Doctor Light (either one of them) pops up next.
I remember someone I used to follow on YT saying they liked the Flash tv show UNTIL they started adding in characters like Firestorm and The Atom and such. I sometimes wonder what it must be like for those who skip most of the MCU and Arrowverse shows but still show up for the crossovers (I do have some friends who skip some of the MCU installments, but they're stubborn to a fault) and I
just managed to get in on the ground floor for Arrow and then again with Supergirl. Mando is being set (and in a way, already was from is inception) to be something similar.
Ohh, there's plenty of hope for me, but clearly we should be worried about you, SS. ;)
Rebels was ideally positioned for me, set in a period where there was room to tell stories, space to fit into the good continuity, independent from the new dren, and not obviously tied into the Prequels in the beginning. I just wish it had been better, and of course, there are problems with having other Jedi running around in the Rebellion before Luke.
Sounds like they're biting off more than they can chew. We'll see, I suppose.
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 16, 2021, 07:29:19 PM
Ohh, there's plenty of hope for me, but clearly we should be worried about you, SS. ;)
Touche.
QuoteSounds like they're biting off more than they can chew. We'll see, I suppose.
Perhaps, if as long as they're more like the MCU and the Arrowverse and less like DC's movie stuff, things might turn out pretty swell.
Then again, I remember the discussion back in the day. The Avengers (and Infinity War, AND Endgame) was looking to be a big movie, and BvS and Justice League were looking to be a hot mess. Sometimes you really can see these things coming.
I mean, the MCU is a rarity, if not a freaking miracle. Something that is about 90% high quality, driven by a clear purpose, and faithful to the spirit of the material, created by people who both love and understand their subject....that clearly is a hard thing to do in Hollywood, much less on TV. I'm looking at you, Arrowverse and Agents of Shield....That level of dedication and good judgment is just not common in this world.
I'm fine with them telling more stories in the parts of the SW universe that aren't tainted by modern trash. I might watch such if they're good, but I've yet to see anything in the Mandalorian that is worth spinning off. Although, I would watch the HECK out of an animated show centered around the hijinks of a crew of Jawas, something like the Jawas Adventures comic pitch:
https://www.otisframpton.com/jawa-adventures
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canderous_Ordo
From everything I can tell, the helmet thing is just a Mandalorian conceit, it's not a thing in any other SW media. It may have been a thing in some book in Legends, but that can be hand waved as either the old ways, or from a tribe similar to Din's. In either case, mainstream Mandalorians haven't apparently cared since the Kotor days, if you still consider that canon (which, frankly, even Disney still basically does despite saying otherwise. They still sell figures and merch from it, they reference the lore of it, etc).
I look at it as the equivalent of, say, a baptism. There's factions of Christianity in which you aren't Christian if you're not baptised, others where it's important because it's symbolic but not necessary, and still more that don't practice it at all.
They tried to do their own version- High Republic. But its basically DOA despite all the hype. Marvel ofc blames Mandalorian and "toxic fans."
I can't be sure, but I seem to remember the always covered thing from the old days. I thought it was in my old Star Wars Encyclopedia, but apparently not. It's possible I imagined it, but it feels right. It fits with the portrayals I do remember.
KOTOR is good, but I've never thought of it as terribly important, continuity-wise. I suppose it did give us a maskless Mandlorian, but that also would have been a long time ago (longer than the original long time ago!).
I don't necessarily hate the maskless Mando thing, especially since I'm not certain that was originally a thing, but I like the central premise of the 'people apart' that we get with the masked tradition. And I understand your point about factions, 'Mato.
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 17, 2021, 04:36:04 AM
I mean, the MCU is a rarity, if not a freaking miracle. Something that is about 90% high quality, driven by a clear purpose, and faithful to the spirit of the material, created by people who both love and understand their subject....that clearly is a hard thing to do in Hollywood, much less on TV. I'm looking at you, Arrowverse and Agents of Shield....That level of dedication and good judgment is just not common in this world.
*Obligatory snarky comment about Thor*I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but the success story and immediate spinoff plan here is similar to the first Iron Man or Arrow (even Man of Steel; fair is fair). You start out with ONE thing that's solid to lay the groundwork, and THEN you start spinning off all over the place.
Star Wars, and I've been thinking about this a lot in recent years - there's no "multiverse". No animated canon, live action tv canon, no movie canon, no video game canon. Outside of the "Legends" stuff, it's functionally one universe, making more things in it feel like "required" watching/reading/playing to follow the story.
Going forward, it looks like there will largely be one world - Filoni's world.
QuoteI'm fine with them telling more stories in the parts of the SW universe that aren't tainted by modern trash. I might watch such if they're good, but I've yet to see anything in the Mandalorian that is worth spinning off. Although, I would watch the HECK out of an animated show centered around the hijinks of a crew of Jawas, something like the Jawas Adventures comic pitch:
https://www.otisframpton.com/jawa-adventures
1. We're getting a new Droids series for the "younglings". Also when Last Jedi came out we got a series of animated shorts starring BB-8, R-2 and the Porgs, so animated shorts starring "The Child" aka Baby Yoda, should be a no brainer.
2. "I'm fine with them telling more stories in the parts of the SW universe that aren't tainted by modern trash" One reason I'm....let's say cautiously optimistic about a "High Republic" movie trilogy if that ever actually got made (even though my nostalgic little heart kinda dreads it because I don't really trust Disney with it) is because they won't be free to coast on nostalgia, returning characters, and "Remember-berries". They'll have to survive on strong stories and characters and that alone.
And yes, I'm aware of the irony of me saying that while I gush about Mando. But hey, to quote the Maple Leaf meats slogan "You can taste the difference quality makes."
It seems like interest in the sequel saga has dropped to almost nothing after that trilogy ended, especially with Resistance being a complete flop, and I can't blame any of that, thus Lucasfilm looks elsewhere for more content.
3. "I might watch such if they're good, but I've yet to see anything in the Mandalorian that is worth spinning off." That comes in later episodes mainly. Though, again, I would say it is unlikely you'll have as much enthusiasm as myself and others, and you know what, that's fine. I'm one of those folks who watches just about EVERYTHING (Marvel, DC, TMNT, TF, SW) but I can hardly expect everyone else to follow suit. But their current game plan may alienated less than dedicated Jedi.
That being said Disney's (and DC's and Star Trek's, and Walking Dead) current game plan to spread everything out so there's always ONE thing to watch at a time, so you "HAVE" to watch it. It's a great market tactic, and may work out for the "Mandoverse", but those unwilling to take the plunge may feel alienated. Not to spoil too much, but one of the plot points you may enjoy in S2 of Mando....likely WON'T be continued in Mando, sorry to say.
Quote from: Tomato on January 17, 2021, 06:19:33 AM
It may have been a thing in some book in Legends, but that can be hand waved as either the old ways, or from a tribe similar to Din's.
"There's always a bit of truth in those old Legends." Dave Filoni.
You're mischaracterizing the process that began with Iron Man, I'm afraid. There was much of a plan there than there was for the others. Nonetheless, the other model, the DC model, is much more common. After all, it doesn't require any particular skill or forethought.
I don't have high hopes for any new Star Wars movies, but moving back in time will give them a better chance to do something worthwhile, at least. Though, unless they go far enough before the Prequels that the films radically reimagine the setting of the Old Republic, I can't imagine being interested. Give me something based on Tales of the Jedi, and I will be all over it, though.
Well, whatever they end up doing probably won't really apply to me anyway, as I'm not going to keep Disney+ for long. I hate the splintering of the streaming services, and I'll be hanged if I'm going to pay for a dozen different ones. So, if they try to split everything up, it won't matter much for me. I'll check-in for a month here and there, at best, and watch the stuff that has accumulated. After Wanda-Vision, we're out for the year, I imagine. I'll come back when the Marvel content is all finished, ha.
:EDIT: This makes me so happy:
https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/luke-skywalker-mandalorian-star-wars-mark-hamill-hope-optimism/?fbclid=IwAR2xwtq4ObjoB4d3NcT0uh46-1H-W8zwvEYBuTo-NjkvvvXEc-Vebz70-wU
Mark Hamill gets it. :D I would love the chance to meet him again as an adult and thank him for the joy and wonder his character gave me in my youth.
So, we just watched the episode where:
Spoiler
Boba Fett returns and gets his armor back
It was a fun and interesting episode, and it was definitely cool to see that character return. Even if the Prequels are awful, he's a solid actor, and you could more or less ignore the earlier stuff in his portrayal here.
Spoiler
I went and dug out my old Boba Fett comics from back in the day, a fun set of stories with him as the unstoppable anti-hero. This portrayal seems a bit more noble than what he should be, but then again, I imagine getting eaten by a Sarlacc might change a man.
However, this whole Beskar thing is getting sort of ridiculous! It's one thing if it is really awesome armor and can deflect a blaster bolt. It's something else when it can stop a lightsaber cold, or just stand up to sustained fire with no ill effects. There's been a lot of power creep with this stuff in just one season!
A lot of people noticed that. There isn't much tension if the hero is invulnerable.
Indeed.
That also kinda gets mocked in the next two episodes.
The funny thing is/was, one of the things I liked about Mando up to this point was how much of a struggle Mando/Din Djarin had in many of his fights, that kept things interesting. He would win basically every fight he was in, but he still would get thrown around quite a bit and have to use his wits and skills and tactics to get out of situations. In this batch of episodes he can shrug off pretty much anything.
I was reminded the other night of something I learned while playing some of the later Resident Evil games when fighting heavily armored foes: aim at the feet. Or to quote Transformers: Beast Wars: "When battling bots, aim at the hinges". The point being all you'd have to do is aim for a part that isn't armored, if you last long enough in a fight to get a chance to do that (you'll see arguably the most over-the-top instance of this in the season finale).
Yeah, I actually said to Lady Grey while we were watching the first season that he gets his backside kicked a fair amount for an elite warrior, ha. Quite the switch.
Okay, we've finished the show. That was....fine. It definitely faded as it went. The first season was very strong, but this one was more uneven, and the power creep got rather ridiculous, plus the supporting cast had little personality beyond 'bad-A warrior 1' and 'bad-A warrior 2'. I was really expecting more from this finale. It gave us some good moments, but I wasn't super impressed. It's a reasonably good show, but it is probably only a solid B overall.
Not particularly spoiler-y, but I'll tag it in an abundance of caution:
Spoiler
I really wanted more out of the Luke cameo. And I don't just mean narrative space. I mean I would have liked for him to display any personality at all. What a waste to have Mark Hamill show up for, like two extremely bland lines, ha. It was great to see him playing the role in a none-terrible fashion, though. The de-aging looked good in isolation, but in motion it was pretty uncanny valley. As for his dramatic arrival, it was fun, but the attempt to create tension with people watching the screens made it drag. Ironically, I saw it recut to sync up with "I Need a Hero," and the video was way more exciting and satisfying, ha. While the action of that scene was pretty much fine, the main cast action has been getting too casual and over-the-top this season, and this episode really brought that to a head. I really wanted one of them to at least get wounded to give the thing some stakes, instead of having them casually jog through the ship. And I see what SS was saying about the magic armor reaching new highs here.
They gave us a nice farewell between Mando and the Child. That was a good moment, though they should have had Luke be more comforting and reassuring. Heck, he should have at least introduced himself. As Lady Grey said, "Luke is being really rude!" But I liked the payoff of Mando removing his helmet for the kid. We could have had that built up to a bit more, but it was reasonably well prepared.
So, all-in-all, this is a fine ending, and I am content. I'm glad I watched the show, and I certainly enjoyed the journey. Yet, I don't know that I need to watch any more of this show or of their other shows. I feel like this story is done and there isn't a ton more that needs to happen with it, as I just couldn't care less about Bo-Whatever-Her-Face or Marshal Can't-Act-Her-Way-Out-of-A-Paper-Bag. If they come back with more fun adventures in the SW universe and keep it relatively free of the dead weight, I might come back, but I'm not going to be holding my breath or paying extra for the privilege.
After credits scene:
Spoiler
So, this was mildly interesting. In isolation, this could be really cool, but it just had very little weight because Boba got basically no development, and what we saw of him was more 'honorable warrior' than 'ruthless criminal', so this didn't really make a ton of sense. Obviously, the latter is much more akin to the Boba in the lore, but it's still a fairly sharp tonal shift. In general, I'd be all over a Boba Fett show, except that they're bringing in his modern origins, which I have zero interest in. In fact, the whole 'you're a clone' thing from this episode was one of the only actively discordant elements for me. Took me right out of the story by reminding me inescapably of the Prequels.
"I Need a Hero" video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHgY7LIiaSM
I made the mistake of watching this first. The original paled in comparison, ha!
So, that's my take, guys.
Fair enough. Glad you enjoyed at least a little of it.
QuoteI made the mistake of watching this first. The original paled in comparison, ha!
Yeah, you really gotta watch that scene proper the first time. I recently heard someone on Youtube I follow say "If you really want to test how good your story is, spoil it. If people already have it spoiled and it's still good, it passes the test" and I'm *raises finger, thinks for a second* Yeah, kinda. But suspense is my ally, and a powerful ally it is (yes, I do indeed love to speak in SW quotes. They're oh so applicable) The finale, directed by Ant-Man director Peyton Reed, is definitely going for suspense (it's the only way I can forgive how slow and incompetent our opposition in that episode is) Part of the fun of Mando is the different directors they bring in (Robert Rodriguez did the episode with our old buddy with the Ghadaffi stick, and he's coming back to do the spin-off) Filoni naturally worked on the more Clone Wars-specific material (fun fact, Ep 8's Rian Johnston taught him to direct live action on the set of the Last Jedi).
Anyway...
QuoteMarshal Can't-Act-Her-Way-Out-of-A-Paper-Bag
I take it you won't be watching Republic Rangers, then?
I can't blame you for checking out after this season, to be honest, giving your personal preferences and the fact that so much here exists to create spin-offs that there's very little "Mandalorian" plot left IN the Mandalorian.
That being said, now that you're caught the heck up, I do have a hot take to share with you. It concerns parts of the season you didn't seem to comment on.
Spoiler
So, yeah, Thrawn's being namedropped, with the implication he's going to show up (in the Ahsoka show, quite possibly) was for many, including myself, one of the most surprising things in the whole season, likely because it didn't leak AFAIK, likely due to him never appearing onscreen. It will no doubt be used to tie into Rebels material but fans are naturally tantalized by the notion of Thrawn in live action in a show more aimed at the older set. But wait, there's more!
As you may have caught in an episode or two of this season, the Imperial Remnant is hard at work using harvested Jedi DNA to grow Snoke or something similar to him/it at this point in time. While this is tying into a very quick and dirty moment in Ep9, this plot raises a lot of enticing possibilities. There's speculation as to what the upcoming Thrawn-related material will entail, but my personal hot take is this will be Filoni's way of doing the new Disney/Filoni canon version of......Jorus C'Boath. Oh yes. (Fun fact, my name in the Clone Wars Adventures MMO was Jorus Skydreamer, which was made up of two default/placeholder suggestion names.)
As for the after credits scene:
Spoiler
QuoteSo, this was mildly interesting. In isolation, this could be really cool, but it just had very little weight because Boba got basically no development, and what we saw of him was more 'honorable warrior' than 'ruthless criminal', so this didn't really make a ton of sense. Obviously, the latter is much more akin to the Boba in the lore, but it's still a fairly sharp tonal shift. In general, I'd be all over a Boba Fett show, except that they're bringing in his modern origins, which I have zero interest in. In fact, the whole 'you're a clone' thing from this episode was one of the only actively discordant elements for me. Took me right out of the story by reminding me inescapably of the Prequels.
I actually agree with most of this, except being turned off by the inclusion of Prequel references of course. You certainly like the word "discordant". I think you and I would have interesting things to say about how inconsistent they Jedi's skill levels are in this franchise across the board, to say nothing of the Mandoralorians themselves. Anyway, I really enjoyed the post-credit scene in the moment, it was neat and rather amusing to see Bib Fortuna as a now-obese successor to Jabba only to be immediately shot by Fett (decidedly
not his fate in the old pre-Disney canon), but the problem is it's not a particularly exciting tease for a Boba Fett show. What would have been more enticing would be to set a goal for Boba and have him attain it over the course of The Book of Boba Fett (akin to Samurai Jack or Afro Samurai) and have him attain his version of the "Number One Headband" at the END of season 1 of BoBF and have usurpers to the throne (like say, Bosck) challenge him in S2.
This....it's cool in the moment for sure, but making a followup to it kinda feels like making an Ep9 after you've already put out The Last Jedi. So I assume BoBF will be about a decayed clone of Jabba then. Actually, Jabba's son was a big part of the plot of the opening storyline of The Clone Wars, so knowing Filoni, a now adult version of that character may indeed show up (and we GOTTA get Cad Bane in here).
Speaking of which, sorry to say, but Boba's modern characterization, though I imagine partly a reference to Temura Morrison in general, in fact comes from the Clone Wars animated show, where he showed up several times, and gradually learns what kind of man he wants to be, culminating in this kind of characterization surfacing in an
as-yet-unfished arc where he goes to a wild west-themed town to have a showdown with Cad Bane and some other bounty hunters to protect some innocent people Cad was using as hostages. You can even see people in the comments section of the clip on Youtube saying "See? Fett wasn't out-of-character in Mando!" I wouldn't be surprised if this arc gets properly canonized as an extended flashback in The Book of Boba Fett (which would be a great way to get Cad Bane into here) as it would give Boba some of that much needed character development and bridge the gap between the unsullied and those who have taken the plunge. In a similar vein, Darth Maul: Son of Dathamir (which got made into a comic book miniseries) got relegated to one line of dialogue in the final season of The Clone Wars, which I was hoping for and honestly was fairly satisfied by.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see The Book of Boba Fett make hefty use of a digitally de-aged Temuera Morrison.
Something else I should mention is that in addition to stuff from the prequels and the CGI cartoons being used here, we're also getting stuff from the
video games being thrown into the mix. I have been told an HK droid (from Kotor) made a cameo in one of the episodes this season, the campaign to the modern-day Battlefront II got directly referenced in the second-to-last episode this season, and it's both speculated and rumored that a character from Jedi Fallen Order will be showing up in live action next season (naturally, I installed the game to my PS4 and downloaded and installed the update just the other night, and hope to start playing the game shortly). So yeah, to quote Princess Leia, "It's not over yet." (to which Benton replies "It is for ME, Sister." :P )
"Look, I ain't in this for your Prequels, and I'm not in it for your new movies. I'm in this for good Star Wars stories." Ha, two can play at this game, SS. :D
As I said, I enjoyed the show, in fact, the vast majority of it. I just wish it was a bit better. I think the multi-director thing wore out its welcome. That's got to be a significant part of its unevenness; how could it not be? At the least, the show needed a bit more quality control at the top level (and an editor for scripts and shot, ha!). Nonetheless, it's definitely better than anything made after
RotJ, other than
Rogue One, and it's on a pretty similar level with that movie.
Republic Rangers: Interesting. I didn't actually know what was getting spun off. If it is going to be starring her, that's really a shame, because that's a title that has potential to interest me. Ha, but I don't think I could handle her as the lead. She was bad enough in supporting cast.
Spoiler
So, Thrawn. I had forgotten about that. In other circumstances, I would be super interested in something involving him, but knowing we're never going to get the Thrawn Trilogy, I don't know that I really want to see something lesser plucked from the corpse of the old canon. Thrawn is a great villain, but I don't know if there is enough space in the world they've created to use him well. My hesitation would be much greater if he's going to be in the Ashoka show. That's probably why I forgot about his being mentioned, because it happened in connection with her, and I found both her and her episode underwhelming and forgettable. I have zero interest in that character and her Prequel baggage.
After credits:
Ha, discordant is a useful term.
Spoiler
Well, I can't comment on those stories, not having seen any of them, but it sounds like they've sorta' botched the character if they've taken him in the direction you described. Don't get me wrong. I love a redemption story, and I think Boba could be used to great effect in such, but the place for such stories is after Star Wars, not before. When we see him in the movies, he's a cold and ruthless hunter. We don't see much of him, but there's definitely nothing to suggest that the guy who happily works for Vader and Jabba has any positive qualities or altruism. The old lore made a lot more sense out of his portrayal, even leaving aside my preference for it.
Games: Yeah, I noticed the Dark Troopers, from one of my favorite games of my youth,
Dark Forces. I quite enjoyed those kinds of things.
"You will pay for your lack of vision."
Well, you already acknowledged that Mando itself was better than anything else after RotJ other than Rogue One, so I'm not going to argue there. Though I have to roll my eyes now that Alan Tudyk has said that K-2SO won't be in S1 of Andor (THEN WHY ARE YOU MAKING THE SHOW, DISNEY? WHY ARE YOU MAKING THE SHOW?) Ahem.
QuoteRepublic Rangers: Interesting. I didn't actually know what was getting spun off. If it is going to be starring her, that's really a shame, because that's a title that has potential to interest me. Ha, but I don't think I could handle her as the lead. She was bad enough in supporting cast.
Well, if it makes you feel better, Gina Carano is apparently just the worst in real life, so there is a section of the fandom who would like to see her rubbed out of this whole enterprise. Time will tell I suppose.
Spoiler
QuoteI don't know that I really want to see something lesser plucked from the corpse of the old canon.
Well considering a good chunk of Ep 9's plot was very much that, and a lot of fans thought it was garbage, I can't blame you. :P
QuoteThrawn is a great villain, but I don't know if there is enough space in the world they've created to use him well.
The version of Thrawn in Rebels was a great villain in a less than great show. But a big part of why he was so cool (other than the excellent casting of Lars Mikkleson - the fan pick is Cumberbatch, but I figure they should just have him play him in live action) was because they hewed so closely to the original characterization to please the fans. This is a new canon - in many other instances, it'd be the easiest thing in the world to make him a completely different character (like, say, Lex Luthor), and he did have a different role - but because of the immense love for the character, they opted to try to get him as faithful as possible.
QuoteMy hesitation would be much greater if he's going to be in the Ashoka show. That's probably why I forgot about his being mentioned, because it happened in connection with her, and I found both her and her episode underwhelming and forgettable. I have zero interest in that character and her Prequel baggage.
Sounds about right. Her fans loved it though (and I do include myself among them). Star Wars is supposed to be for all of us, and Mando managed to do what a year or so ago seemed impossible - unite the fandom and get them to stop arguing and enjoy their darn Star Wars, and I'll always love it for that.
Ahsoka's not really that hard to wrap your head around. "Imagine Rey - but they remembered to include the character development." A scrappy young female lead added into the mix who develops enough over time to be embraced by the fandom. Or, to use the OT, I like to think most SW fans understand and appreciate that Luke in "Star Wars" is not the same character as Luke in "Return of the Jedi". Basically the same thing for Ahsoka.
Here's a question for you - would the sequel trilogy and "Old Man Luke" have displeased you as much if it was the first Star Wars material you ever watched, read or played? I would imagine the answer to that is "No."
My expectations for the Ahsoka series are that it will largely bring back stuff from TCW and Rebels and tie at little bit into the sequel trilogy, so there likely will be nothing to interest you anyways. If you want to see how they handle Thawn in live action, there's always Youtube clips when it comes out.
After credits:
Spoiler
QuoteWell, I can't comment on those stories, not having seen any of them, but it sounds like they've sorta' botched the character if they've taken him in the direction you described. Don't get me wrong. I love a redemption story, and I think Boba could be used to great effect in such, but the place for such stories is after Star Wars, not before. When we see him in the movies, he's a cold and ruthless hunter. We don't see much of him, but there's definitely nothing to suggest that the guy who happily works for Vader and Jabba has any positive qualities or altruism. The old lore made a lot more sense out of his portrayal, even leaving aside my preference for it.
Originally he wants revenge on Mace Windu for chopping his father's head off, and he falls in with some other bounty hunters, and then later on he seems to realize that his life is going nowhere this way.
The fan joke for years was that Boba Fett was Clint Eastwood (which is why Cad Bane was Lee Van Cleef) so making him a cowboy anti-hero made some amount of sense, but again, doesn't necessarily gel with the new canon.
Indeed, I only read a few SW novels and comics that actually featured the cast of the OT, but the ones I read with Boba did feature him as having some kind of moral code, a sort of "honor among thieves" (in a similar vein to The Transporter, I suppose) that may have played a role in making him the best and making others seem like petty losers in comparison.
They're definitely getting into a position to just throw a lot of fanservice at fans at this point, and potentially sacrifice the story, but at the very least, I'm enjoying it right now. But I kinda view Mando as a kind of world tour of the SW expanded universe, a kind of SW theme park in its own right. Which in itself doesn't necessarily lend itself to a solid standalone narrative, I'll concede.
Season 2 was a bit of a testing ground for new directors. New to SW,that is. One of the theories being that higher-ups at Disney are not happy with Kathleen Kennedy and are casting people to replace her.
So yeah,while still good,season 2 is a victim of its own success.
Not a bad way to phrase it, and similar to what I said above.
As Marcus of Cosmonaut Variety Hour said in his Rebels video, Clone Wars was at its best when it was teetering on the verge of cancellation and was taking risks, while Rebels had that sweet, sweet Disney money and could afford to play it safe.
Note that I don't actually agree with ANY of that in regards to those two shows, but it does kinda apply to Mando. It did turn into the "Now you're just showing off" show, in a similar vein to the tv version of Crisis on Infinite Earths. I've also heard the final act of "The Avengers" described as an endzone dance celebrating its own existence, which I pretty much agree with. Same thing here, in a way.
QuoteOne of the theories being that higher-ups at Disney are not happy with Kathleen Kennedy and are casting people to replace her.
Kathleen Kennedy is a businessperson, not a storyteller. Filoni, Faveraux and the rest are the ones fighting in the trenches, doing the nitty-gritty work like the cast of Rogue One. As the song goes, "And the general sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side."
To do a bit of mindreading,I don't think shes happy that 5 min of
Spoiler
CGI Luke
generated more hype and goodwill then 9+ hours of movies.
Possibly, but she also got on stage and announced ten new Star Wars projects and the return of Hayden as Anakin/Darth Vader, something that the collective fandom somehow, against all odds, got to the point that they decided they really wanted.
And most of that will streamed directly to our TVs and electronic devices.
I think she may just be a shrewd businessperson. Insane, but shrewd.
Sheesh, they're making an Andor show too? Ha, they are absolutely going to overdo it.
Spoiler
Thrawn: He was good in Rebels, and definitely one of the better elements of the show, as you say. Still, it felt like quite the waste of the master strategist to have him as the antagonist in such a small scale story. I'm sure he could be used well, but I don't know that a TV series is the best setting for him, and there will always be a little part of me that will resent getting anything other than the classic stories. And indeed, as you say, it shouldn't be hard to find out if there will be anything to catch my interest in his portrayal or any of these other elements. I imagine it will be the easiest thing in the world to learn as much as I care to, ha.
Ashoka: Oh, I understand the basics of the character, and I'm sure she's a good character in her own context. I just don't like the context. With her comes the baggage of the Prequels, and there is almost nothing that kills my interest quicker than being forcefully reminded of that wasted potential. Of course, in context of this show, they clearly relied
way too heavily on fans being familiar with her from the cartoon. We learn almost nothing about her in her guest spot and are giving no particular reason to care about her, other than the fact that she is carrying lightsabers. In fact, the Mandalorian seems more interested in saving people than she does. I'm sure fans like you can bring all of their love for the character from previous stories to bear, but for a lot of folks, this is going to be their first introduction to her (I had already known her from the comics and other stuff), and it's not that impressive of a first meeting, which is a shame if they want to spin her off.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 23, 2021, 06:30:41 AM
Here's a question for you - would the sequel trilogy and "Old Man Luke" have displeased you as much if it was the first Star Wars material you ever watched, read or played? I would imagine the answer to that is "No."
Of course not, but what's your point? You could say the same thing about
Thor 3 or
Ironman 3. If you see those films in isolation, you don't realize that they are failing at some of the most foundational jobs of sequential storytelling, failing to be true to the narrative trust they carried. So, your question is really not very illustrative. After all, if those movies were the first I saw, I wouldn't have known how dramatically and unforgivably they dropped the ball tonally and thematically, how much they squandered the story left to them by their forebearers, or how badly they mishandled extant characters. But those shortcomings would still exist, nonetheless. The new movies, aside from their varying quality
as movies are terrible additions to a world
that already existed, a story that had already been established, and themes that had already been developed. They
can't be properly judged in isolation, any more than you can judge
Thor 3 as a Thor story in isolation, however much fun the movie is. And the new films are (yes) quite discordant when one sees them in context.
Boba: Interesting, which books did you read with him? About the only code I've seen him display in the old stories was a commitment to a job once he'd taken it, more or less the usual 'honorable but ruthless mercenary' kind of thing. He was generally
kind of honest, but that didn't mean he wouldn't hold to the letter of an agreement while still effectively betraying someone. In one of the great Fett comics from the '90s, he promises a minor fugitive his freedom if the guy will help him get a bigger bounty. Then, he does indeed set the guy free, but he does it on the target's pirate ship, surrounded by angry pirates that want to kill him. Ha. Anyway, it isn't necessarily a matter of new portrayals contradicting Legends canon, because obviously, that's always on the table these days, and it isn't always a bad thing (I'm looking at you, Kyp Durron and
Courtship), but a matter of these things seeming to contradict, or at least, not gelling with his portrayal in the films themselves.
And for the record, I'd be 100% behind just a tour of the SW universe, just following Mando as he wanders the galaxy with a gun, a-la the old Westerns. In fact, giving up on an overarching story that they don't have the wherewithal to handle properly, and just going full episodic would be fine with me. I just would want a bit better and more consistent quality out of whatever they would do.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 23, 2021, 08:46:56 AM
Possibly, but she also got on stage and announced ten new Star Wars projects and the return of Hayden as Anakin/Darth Vader, something that the collective fandom somehow, against all odds, got to the point that they decided they really wanted.
I simply CANNOT believe that is true. I know people are stupid, but I can't believe that a majority of people could be so profoundly stupid as to be happy about that.
Rey sucked so bad,that he ended up being vindicated.
QuoteRey sucked so bad,that he ended up being vindicated.
I personally wouldn't go
that far, but for a lot of the fandom, not too far off, really.
The last two posts popped up WHILE I was writing and posting this (the board ate my post - this happens often - I learned to right click and "copy text"). Kommando, I'll check out your post a bit later and reply if there's something there I'd like to add to.
Oh, I see we have a bit to unpack here.
Spoiler
Thrawn: If you squint, you could swap out Moff Gideon with Thrawn and it kinda works. At least I thought so.
It sounds like you think Thrawn would work better in a movie. And if it was a really good movie, that may be so. Not sure I trust the movie division of Disney Lucasfilm to do it though. Thrawn as a shouty brat with a temper tantrum who gets smacked around in every other scene would be just about the most disrespectful thing you could do with the character.
I certainly don't mean to be condescending, but I find it a bit....interesting that you hold Star Wars to such a different standard than Marvel and DC. Both Marvel and DC often try (and sometimes even succeed) at making lemons out of lemonade. I'm not saying it's wrong, we all have our preferences and hangups (I'm certainly guilty of that). Just find it interesting.
QuoteOf course not, but what's you're point? You could say the same thing about Thor 3 or Ironman 3. If you see those films in isolation, you don't realize that they are failing at some of the most foundational jobs of sequential storytelling, failing to be true to the narrative trust they carried. So, your question is really not very illustrative. After all, if those movies were the first I saw, I wouldn't have known how dramatically and unforgivably they dropped the ball tonally and thematically, how much they squandered the story left to them by their forebearers, or how badly they mishandled extant characters. But those shortcomings would still exist, nonetheless. The new movies, aside from their varying quality as movies are terrible additions to a world that already existed, a story that had already been established, and themes that had already been developed. They can't be properly judged in isolation, any more than you can judge Thor 3 as a Thor story in isolation, however much fun the movie is. And the new films are (yes) quite discordant when one sees them in context.
I'm reminded of when Force Awakens came out, I believe it was you who said TFA cannot be judged as a single isolated film because it was so derivative of the original trilogy. My response back then (and I stand by it) is that Star Wars was always derivative, George was fully upfront about that, admitting his fondness for Flash Gordon and the like.
The distinction, and my point, is that the sequel trilogy is about a new group of characters, arguably aimed at least partially at a new generation without our baggage, meeting older characters they've never met before and forming their opinions of them. If you look at it from that perspective (and I sometimes do - I don't think I consider it a very good defense of Jake Skywalker, because he DID exist before, but I do try to think of it)
Thor 3 and Iron Man don't really fit that description. Though Thor 4 may present an interesting comparison.
If Ahsoka's older appearances didn't appear, she'd simply be one more Jedi who's still out there - which is also functionally Baby Yoda's backstory, now that we had it.
Comics, you say? I didn't realize Ahsoka had much of a presence in the comics. Other than the direct tie-in comics to the animated series. Perhaps those cute cartoon style IDW comics? I may have to take a closer look at those.
Funny thing about that, Dark Horse gave away a freebie of the first issue of said tie-in comic, and I made a point to read it right as it was adapted into an arc late in the Clone Wars cartoon, which was about a Togruta slave ring (that being Ashoka's people) the comic starts with Ashoka talks about how her people, much like the Wookies, are a people of slaves. This did not make it into the cartoon, to which I was like
why in the world would you not include that? That's the interesting part of the arc, the character development.
QuoteBoba: Interesting, which books did you read with him? About the only code I've seen him display in the old stories was a commitment to a job once he'd taken it, more or less the usual 'honorable but ruthless mercenary' kind of thing. He was generally kind of honest, but that didn't mean he wouldn't hold to the letter of an agreement while still effectively betraying someone. In one of the great Fett comics from the '90s, he promises a minor fugitive his freedom if the guy will help him get a bigger bounty. Then, he does indeed set the guy free, but he does it on the target's pirate ship, surrounded by angry pirates that want to kill him. Ha. Anyway, it isn't necessarily a matter of new portrayals contradicting Legends canon, because obviously, that's always on the table these days, and it isn't always a bad thing (I'm looking at you, Kyp Durron and Courtship), but a matter of these things seeming to contradict, or at least, not gelling with his portrayal in the films themselves.
Tales of The Bounty Hunters and The Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. I also read Dark Empire, which he popped into for a very gratuitious cameo (as I understand it, the FIRST time he came back - they came up with the whys and hows later). There's a scene in his story in Tales of the Bounty Hunters that's....strangely risque, (there's another similar sequence elsewhere in that book - I was a wee bit too young when I read that) but Boba was...how to say....a proper gentlemen when it came to bedroom-related activities. I'm sure why they felt the need to include that in a SW novel, but I always remembered it.
QuoteI simply CANNOT believe that is true. I know people are stupid, but I can't believe that a majority of people could be so profoundly stupid as to be happy about that.
Oh it be true. For the record, I should state for the record I 100% stand by those "profoundly stupid" fans on this one. I guess I'll have to explain this step by step, because there is quite a bit to unpack with this one topic.
1. There's a debate on how much of the bad acting was Hayden's fault. It's not a huge secret that George wasn't particularly good at getting good performances out of his actors.
2. The Clone Wars. Not sure if you have awareness of this specific thing, but Anakin in that show is a
completely different and better character. And now there's a section of the fandom that would really like to see Hayden's Anakin say something to our live action Ahsoka (or acknowledge her existence in any way, since he of course had no opportunity to, even though the two characters made voice-only cameos in Ep 9 without seconds of each other). Mind you, fans also wanted Anakin/Vader (either version, I'd gather) have an interaction with Kylo, and Disney completely dropped the ball on that too. I personally would have liked to have seen the latter, and look forward to the notion of the former.
3. A growing sense of unhappiness with the Disney-era movies contributed to a general softening on George and the Prequels in general. I can honestly say I never in my wildest dreams imagined I'd live to see the day that the Prequels and George himself were vindicated by a large portion of the fandom, but that is now the case. But I also never imagined I'd see Boba Fett in live action clearing out folks like he's John Wick, either.
4. Something you need to understand, is that there is a generation younger than myself (my nephew was in this group) who grew up on those movies, and are now young adults themselves, and, as I understand it, some/many of them loved and still love the Prequels and got more out of them than we do. They bypassed "some ambitious ideas that don't quite pan out" to "genuinely inspired and brilliant" or otherwise "entertaining." Some of it, I'll grant, seems delusional to me, but I'm hardly going to throw stones. I don't agree with a lot of it, but they have every right to feel that way if they enjoyed the movies and they meant something to them.
5. A lot of the fans covered in the earlier numbered entries felt a Hayden cameo would have gone a long way in the Sequel Trilogy, and it recently came out that Rian Johnston nixed it in Ep 8.
6. Ewan coming back to play Obi-Wan has been very warmly received, which I totally get - he is after all, one of the
better things in the prequels. And it is in his series that Hayden will be showing up. Granted, these two are not equals, but neither are guilty of the sins of the Prequels - that's George's hand. George got a flat performance out of
Samuel L. Jackson. George had James Earl Jones belt out the infamous "NOOOOO!" Expecting one actor to only ever be as good as the prequels when the prequels included Frank Oz, Anthony Daniels, James Earl Jones and the highest concentration of Ian McDiarmid is, I believe the phrase was "profoundly stupid"?
Hayden, like Anakin/Vader himself, deserves his chance to "redeem" himself every bit as much as any other actor who's been involved in this franchise. (I include Daisey Ridley, John Boyega, Oscar Issaacs, Adam Driver, all the way down to Kelly Marie Tran in this category. Any of them are welcome to show up in future projects IMO, not to mention Jar Jar's rumored return) Moreso, in fact, because of how heavily derided his original outing was. If a director can get an actual good performance out of him, that alone would justify the whole enterprise. And I'd argue J.J. already did, in his cameo in Ep 9. Some people noticed his voice sounds different then it did in the prequels.
And yet, even still, I should mention he's coming to back to play Vader IN THE SUIT. As in David Prowse's original role as the physical suit actor. Depending on how they do this, you'd never even know he was in the show unless you heard about it online.
In Rebels, there's a scene where we see part of Vader's face, and it's prequel-Anakin's face, with his Clone Wars voice actor doing the voice. For the sake of continuity during the period this Kenobi show takes place, it's this or a CGI Hayden.
So yeah, I think that about covers it.
[EDIT] Kommando: Yeah, I think you covered it.
This video is a nice, brief primer to how they developed this character from someone her own voice actress once joked was "The next Jar-Jar Binks" into a fan-favorite. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msgQ6WbIHyc)
QuoteThere is a very good reason her lightsabers are white, but I'm not gonna say why.
Huh, those were introduced in the novel. I didn't know that. I really gotta get that sometime. I was under the impression that a lot of that got overwritten by the final arc of The Clone Wars, but I guess I was wrong.
Her entire show could be a poorly-handled mess and if they at least
acknowledge that Bariss existed I'll probably come out of the whole thing happy.
The prequels are not perfect,but at least there was a mapped out story. We are going from point A to B to C...even if we have to sit at a lot of meetings to get there. The sequels however were a round-robin writing session where nobody has a clue what they are doing,but are trying to screw with the guy before them.
Interesting stuff, Kom!
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 24, 2021, 06:32:06 AM
Spoiler
Thrawn: If you squint, you could swap out Moff Gideon with Thrawn and it kinda works. At least I thought so.
It sounds like you think Thrawn would work better in a movie. And if it was a really good movie, that may be so. Not sure I trust the movie division of Disney Lucasfilm to do it though. Thrawn as a shouty brat with a temper tantrum who gets smacked around in every other scene would be just about the most disrespectful thing you could do with the character.
Spoiler
Ha, yeah, Heaven keep us from such a version. Yeah, I think a movie (series) would be best for the scale of the character. A TV show could work, but it would need to be much larger scale than this one or even Rebels to make proper use of the character, methinks. I'm not saying that they couldn't do great stuff with him in a different setting or that it is wrong to use him in such; I'm just saying that Thrawn is all about grand, sweeping plans. He's about strategy, not tactics, and the only way to see that properly is on a big enough stage. But as you say, I have zero faith in the powers that be to give us such a movie.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 24, 2021, 06:32:06 AM
I certainly don't mean to be condescending, but I find it a bit....interesting that you hold Star Wars to such a different standard than Marvel and DC. Both Marvel and DC often try (and sometimes even succeed) at making lemons out of lemonade. I'm not saying it's wrong, we all have our preferences and hangups (I'm certainly guilty of that). Just find it interesting.
Ha, how exactly am I holding them to different standards? I think I'm pretty consistent in my tastes and judgments, and I try to apply the same standards to all of the things I love. It just so happens that those standards are pretty high. It's part of my training, after all. I dissect and examine art, especially the art I like. That's part of the fun for me. When I like a story, I still point out its flaws, as I have with
The Mandalorian. And I've done just that for DC and Marvel films too.
My problem with DC is pretty much exactly the same as my problem with the new Star Wars stuff. In fact, if anything, I've been much harsher with DC. There is an objective standard with Star Wars (more on this in response to your other statement below), so there is an easier argument for accountability to more specific and nuanced standards there, but I've also had long practice with compartmentalizing my enjoyment of Star Wars and creating my own personal canon of material. I've been doing it since walking out of
Revenge of the Sith with the dreadful realization that it wasn't all going to be redeemed, hah. With DC, they created their own context. It just so happens that their context was awful. But my reaction has been pretty much the same. I felt that the new Star Wars movies poisoned the well, creating a universe that was objectively worse than it should have been and certainly one which I had no interest in visiting. DC did the same thing, though they didn't have as clear a mark to shoot at and are therefore less to blame. By starting their universe with
Man of Steel,
BvS, and
Justice League, they also poisoned the well to the point that what came after was irrelevant. As long as they were building on those same toxic foundations, the stories were inherently flawed.
WW was good? Well and good, but that doesn't make their universe any less flawed in conception, because they staked out their field and poured their foundations elsewhere, on unwholesome ground. There can be good individual DC movies, but until they start over, there won't be a good cinematic universe. And individual films will suffer from connection to the whole.
The Marvel films I have generally loved, in large part because they have been objectively better films and been subjectively much more faithful to the spirit of their source material. But you'll still find me calling jimmies (language filter, leaving it because it's hilarious! :D)and strikes when I discuss them. One of the key differences between Marvel on the one hand and DC and SW on the other is that Marvel's significant flaws have, almost universally, lain in the fringes. They haven't affected the overarching narrative. They built on extremely solid foundations and, until the very end (Thorbowski), continuing the journey never required you to accept their missteps, nor enshrined them within those foundations. With both DC and modern SW, the flaws are there from the inception, woven into the warp and weft of the stories themselves, an ever-present, inescapable subtext.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 24, 2021, 06:32:06 AM
I'm reminded of when Force Awakens came out, I believe it was you who said TFA cannot be judged as a single isolated film because it was so derivative of the original trilogy. My response back then (and I stand by it) is that Star Wars was always derivative, George was fully upfront about that, admitting his fondness for Flash Gordon and the like.
You miss the point, SS. And unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're conflating multiple issues here.
First, the point that I understand you to be talking about here, which is unrelated to the question at hand (i.e. assessment of SW films in context of the original trilogy). I'm spoilering this so as not to clutter up the thread:
Spoiler
TFA can't be judged as a film, i.e., as a work of art, without considering its derivative nature. One criterion for such judgment is creativity, though it is not the most significant, and a work can be good even if it is not original. Yet, the question of originality is still something to be considered in making assessments. Our culture overrates originality, but just because something isn't' everything doesn't mean it's nothing. So, thinking about how good that film is, as a film, means we acknowledge how creative (or not) it is, along with its other qualities. Obviously, in addition to its manifold other sins, many of which are far more significant (poor/nonexistent characterization, lack of internal logic, unsuitability of themes and tone) TFA is not very creative. That doesn't make it a bad movie, but it doesn't help its case, and it shouldn't simply be ignored when forming a wholistic judgment about it.
In this particular instance, you're also glossing over a great deal of significance by saying 'the original movies are derivative too.' The trouble is that you're essentially conflating copying and adaptation. The distinction between the two is a matter of degree, intention, and skill. You might think of it this way: a bad student takes someone else's work and just reproduces it, aping without understanding. A good student will look at a model, or often many models, and create their own work in the style of what came before, digesting the old and creating something new that is greater than the sum of its parts.
TFA, which cribs shamelessly from ANH, taking entire plot points and incidents from the earlier story and presenting them with little to no modification and without a sense of purpose, is an example of copying, like the work of a poor student. The degree (once again, one of three criteria and not damning by itself) is very high. We'll be generous and say that the intention is to create nostalgia, to evoke a feeling, but the skill level is exceedingly low. In fact, both Rogue One and The Mandalorian do that job much more successfully and without simply copying existing material note for note.
The situation is very different with the original films. Think of Indiana Jones and The Raiders of the Lost Ark, which is derivative in precisely the same ways as the original SW Trilogy. That film is an original story told in the style and the milieu of older pulp adventure stories, adapting existing elements into new and unique configurations in the service of a unified and original whole. In terms of degree, the adapted elements are mostly matters of setting and style, with few major and specific elements or incidents cribbed. The intention is in evoking the spirit of the original stories, to inhabit that kind of world, and the skill level is very high. The same is true of the Star Wars films. Lucas drew on Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers, and the opening crawl is even in the style of the old serials. Nonetheless, those films are full of adapted elements put to original uses and feature much good craftsmanship.
Of course, there are also examples, as I mentioned above, of films that aren't original but which are still considered good because we judge films on more than one criterion. Take Oceans 11 as an example, or A Fist Full of Dollars. Both of those films are essentially remakes, borrowing pretty much their entire plots from previous films (high in degree), but they each make those elements their own and tell engaging, well-crafted stories (arguably improving on the originals in both cases). They deserve a little less credit than a completely original film, since they stood on the shoulders of giants, but they are still good films, well made and successful at accomplishing their goals.
TFA, though enjoyable and fun, is not a good film by the criteria used to judge such things, including originality.
Of course, I've let myself get sidetracked by this. None of this actually affects the question at hand:
Second, assessing SW films:
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 24, 2021, 06:32:06 AM
The distinction, and my point, is that the sequel trilogy is about a new group of characters, arguably aimed at least partially at a new generation without our baggage, meeting older characters they've never met before and forming their opinions of them. If you look at it from that perspective (and I sometimes do - I don't think I consider it a very good defense of Jake Skywalker, because he DID exist before, but I do try to think of it)
Thor 3 and Iron Man don't really fit that description. Though Thor 4 may present an interesting comparison.
As C.S. Lewis once said, one of the most important criteria in judging a work of art is understanding what it's trying to do. If we're judging a screwball comedy as if it's attempting to create a weighty dramatic story, we are both wrong and unfair. The same is true if we criticize a drama for not being funny. However, when a work declares its intentions, we must take it at its word. Thus, if a film tells us it's a comedy by employing musical cues and exaggerated performances, we're right to be hard on it if it isn't funny.
And this is what you're missing here with Star Wars and with any continued storytelling, like DC or Marvel. When you release a story titled
Star Wars: Episode VI, that is making a claim, staking out a purpose. That title declares that this story is a continuation of an existing narrative. It's saying "We are telling a story in the same vein as those that came before." To say 'it's about a new group of characters' is fine so far as it goes, but that doesn't mean it isn't still a Star Wars story, and in fact, a direct sequel to existing stories. And let's not forget, that group of characters includes existing characters, characters who will either be in line with their previous portrayals or not. And more importantly, these stories are still set in the same universe, a universe that will either be 'in character' or not. It doesn't matter if they are aiming to bring in new viewers. They are still telling us what they are trying to do, and it is only fair if we take them at their word.
If they show us a X-Wing and call it a Tie Fighter, they are wrong by the rules of the game they've chosen to play, not simply telling their own story.
This argument is much, much easier to make than the one I've made elsewhere for DC films. What is "right" for the latter is much more open to interpretation. After all, there have been multiple versions of Batman and Superman. Who's to say which portrayals are definitive? With Star Wars, there is no such ambiguity regarding the major elements. The stories that exist are implicitly connected to the new stories that they tell, by markers both within and without the new films themselves. In fact, the powers that be went out of their way to establish that some stories were and some stories were not canon.
In this way,
Thor 3 and
Ironman 3 are perfect examples. They declare with their titles and their structure that they are part o the MCU, that what came before, especially in terms of their own characters, is meant to be prologue, and thus they should be judged by whether or not they are faithful to those stories and portrayals. Those are the limitations of continued storytelling.
Obviously, there is room for adjustment and difference of opinion across the spectrum of elements affected by this logic. Not every objection I have to the new movies is based on such concrete ground, and the same is true for those two Marvel films. We can debate whether or not this choice or that one are 'in character'. But the basic premise is inescapable. They have established their own rules, and they must play by them or be guilty of breaking them, and the films should be judged, in part, on how well they do so. To do otherwise is to miss the point of continued narratives and to ignore their context.
Can someone come along and enjoy these films, never having seen the originals? Of course, but I'm talking about more than just personal preference and viewer response. And these films are, from conception,
meant to be seen in context. While there is no accounting for taste, we can still judge works of art on more objective grounds. All the positive opinions in the world aren't going to fix a plot hole, after all, though they will certainly affect how seriously we take it.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 24, 2021, 06:32:06 AM
Comics, you say? I didn't realize Ahsoka had much of a presence in the comics. Other than the direct tie-in comics to the animated series. Perhaps those cute cartoon style IDW comics? I may have to take a closer look at those.
Maybe I'm conflating different mediums or different characters. I've read a LOT of Star Wars stuff, ha. I'm talking about the Dark Horse comics, so perhaps I'm mistaken and I have just picked up the gist of the character from osmosis from nerd culture.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 24, 2021, 06:32:06 AM
Tales of The Bounty Hunters and The Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. I also read Dark Empire, which he popped into for a very gratuitious cameo (as I understand it, the FIRST time he came back - they came up with the whys and hows later). There's a scene in his story in Tales of the Bounty Hunters that's....strangely risque, (there's another similar sequence elsewhere in that book - I was a wee bit too young when I read that) but Boba was...how to say....a proper gentlemen when it came to bedroom-related activities. I'm sure why they felt the need to include that in a SW novel, but I always remembered it.
Interesting. I've read
Tales and
Dark Empire, but never such characterizations of Boba. I see that the trilogy you mentioned started at the end of the '90s, so I guess that's why. I had largely dropped out of SW stuff by that point. Curious.
Anakin: Yeah, I've encountered the Prequel love in my students. It boggles my mind, but I suppose it just shows that most folks have terrible taste, especially young people! :D After all, I once loved
The Inhumanoids... Well, good luck to 'em, if he does come back. Honestly, the problems with the Prequels are so much bigger and more profound than his bad acting that I suppose it hardly matters.
Redemption: Here your attitude and mine part ways dramatically. I just want to avoid the stuff that reminds me of the low points. The last thing I want is to see it brought back in, to me, a futile attempt to salvage it. After all, no matter how good a story you tell going forward, it will still be based on a continuity that maintains its flaws. And I don't blame any of the cast of the new movies for their films. In fact, they were all generally doing a great job under very inauspicious circumstances. That was actually one of the biggest disappointments of the new films. They introduced characters with tremendous potential and had them portrayed by good actors. And then they really, really wasted that potential.
Kenobi too. Sheesh, I keep forgetting just how ridiculously overboard they're going on the shows! I had heard they were doing a Kenobi show but had forgotten it in the flurry of other ones. We had no Star Wars shows for decades and decades, and now they're trying to make up for it all at once.....
Haha, DJ, go crawl back in your gin-soaked grave! ;)
Quote from: Kommando on January 26, 2021, 03:52:05 AM
Benton, if you ever do decide to give animated Star Wars ago, you could safely start with Rebels. It's the shorter series. The animation is a bit less wonky than Clone Wars (cough Obi Wan's Groot Beard cough). It is set five years before the original trilogy, and yes 15 year old Leia Organa makes an appearance. There's lots of appearances, including Grand Admiral Thrawn. Vader appears from time to time voiced by James Earl Jones except in one episode where he has an additional voice actor, and episode you really want to see. Oh and the most compelling argument for watching Rebels is that the design aesthetic is heavily influenced by Ralph McQuarrie's designs, including Darth Vader's armor. That in itself justifies the look of animated Star Wars deviating from live action.
Thanks Kom, I have actually seen most (all?) of
Rebels. I enjoyed it, for the most part; I just wished it was a bit better, ha. The kiddie-ness got to me at times. I was actually
really excited about it, specifically because of the setting after the disappointment of the new films. And, on the whole, it was pretty good, and the Prequel stuff wasn't too jarring. I do have significant problems with more Jedi running around active during the OT, since that borks the themes and the continuity, but that isn't enough to make me write it off by itself. I know what you mean about the McQuarrie designs. I'm always delighted to see stuff based on his work show up.
Quote from: Kommando on January 26, 2021, 03:52:05 AM
I'm kind of wondering how they are going to explain the aging. Ewan McGregor was 31 or 32 while filming Revenge of the Sith, which takes place 20 years before A New Hope. Sir Alec Guinness was about 62 or 63 while filming the first movie.
This was always a problem with the Prequels anyway, part of the trouble with making the Clone Wars THE instigating event for the rise of the Empire, as opposed to a conflict that led to the destabilization of the Republic, as was originally implied.
In a non-Prequels world, I would be totally interested in stories exploring Kenobi's life before SW, but sadly there's too much baggage for me to be interested. That's a real shame, because I really like Tatooine as a setting.
Clone Wars > Rebels. Not even a discussion.
@Benton Watch the Siege of Mandalore as one movie. If that doesn't get you interested in CW,nothing will.
WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS, WE'RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND, COME INSIDE, COME INSIDE!So yeah, I'm back. Someone gave me a lot to read and I had a few things going on, and....it took a while to read it all and compile my response.
But in the words of Transformers: Cybertron/Galaxy Force's version of Thundercracker "You really don't think I can take you, do you? I've waited for this moment for so very long. This is the right time to unleash my special attack, Jack!"
So that's a lot to take in, and to respond to. I do have a lot to say about that, but I don't even know if I want to take the plunge. All that for one quick comment I made that I already said in 2015. I'm getting to this late and there's been a lot more discussion here since, so I might get to it later, or not at all.
I'll do this part quickly, because it's real short and easy:
QuoteClone Wars > Rebels. Not even a discussion.
YUP. That's not to say there aren't some high points in it. Resistance is the one to not bother with unless you're currently under 15 years old IMO.
Quote@Benton Watch the Siege of Mandalore as one movie. If that doesn't get you interested in CW,nothing will.
That IS a good suggestion, but it sounds like Benton made it clear he's not watching that stuff no matter what. And you know what? THAT'S FINE. I've got stuff I'll never opt into. Mostly in the realm of comic content. For Star Wars and Marvel and DC shows and movies, I watch basically EVERYTHING. It might take a while, but I do. I can't possibly expect all my peers to do the same because it's completely unreasonable.
Let's all enjoy the stuff we like. Life's too short. It's
doubly too short nowadays. :lol:
And if I AM watching or reading something that's got some stupid in it, it's probably because I'm going to riff on it and bust some of that stuff open like a bad clam. Which I do often.
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 24, 2021, 10:25:58 PM
Ha, how exactly am I holding them to different standards? I think I'm pretty consistent in my tastes and judgments, and I try to apply the same standards to all of the things I love. It just so happens that those standards are pretty high. It's part of my training, after all. I dissect and examine art, especially the art I like. That's part of the fun for me. When I like a story, I still point out its flaws, as I have with The Mandalorian. And I've done just that for DC and Marvel films too.
Since you asked, my answer
was "Because I've never seen you make it a habit to mark down new material for the sins of material from 15 years ago" But I just read an issue of Marvel's
third attempt at Civil War, and they still haven't learned from the movie, so I retract my original comment. Sorry. :lol:
As for the rest, I'll put it in a spoiler tag myself since it will again be enormous:
Spoiler
QuoteThere is an objective standard with Star Wars (more on this in response to your other statement below),
Objective....to quote the Princess Bride: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Objective quality, in the context of art and literature is a nebulous concept. It functionally doesn't exist. You get 12 angry men in a room and ask them to discuss the concept and agree on stuff and they'll argue and likely none of them will sway each other. You get 12 calm, well mannered, highly educated scholars and/or philosophers to do the same and you may very well get the same result. It's a bad argument. The fact that you and I can disagree about these things prove that it is not objective. And I could PROVE that by picking apart the original trilogy in ways that are pretty hard to deny, but easy to say "Yeah, but that's not a deal breaker for me."
A member of this community back in the day once claimed we all had to acknowledge Samurai Jack was art because.....I don't know. I guess because it's a samurai show with a minimalist style? The original run of the show was a Hanna-Barbarra show. There was an episode called "Jack is Naked" where he had hide behind scenery and steal clothes from a clothesline. I could have shot back by insisting that he concede that the 2003 TMNT was art because Leo talks about the code of Bushido.
You used children's art as a comparison. Well, as they say, I may not know art, but I know what I like, and Jackson Pollock splattered paint all over a canvas and that was considered famous art. A guy once sold a valuable piece of art and all it was was a wall with melted cheese thrown on it. The Caesar Romero Joker once won an art contest with a
100% blank canvas and that's not too far off from the real art scene. I have been informed that Shakesphere was considered LOW BROW in his time. The fact that Banksy has a career....we could do this all day.
And there's a reason a lot of people don't take the Oscars too seriously. I sure don't. And I'm not going to because Jackman deserved an Oscar nomination twice over for Prisoners and Logan as far as I'm concerned. There's a reason Tvtropes has a page called "Oscar Snub". Also James Robinson got a Eisner nomination for Cry for Justice and Rise of Arsenal was recognized for tackling the subject of mental health and trauma. And the artist of Squirrel Girl has TWO Eisners and, I'm sure she's a nice lady, her art makes the sunday funnies look like George Perez with a good inker.
You implied at one point that there are "no good stories" to be found in the prequel-adjacent material (admittedly, we were joking around with Star Wars quotes, but that IS what you said) Which is hilarious because the high points of Clone Wars aren't just good stories, in terms of the stuff you can watch they're arguably the
best stories. Sure, they're dark and gritty, but "Star Wars" wasn't actually hippies and rainbows and incense either. Folks get blown up and burned into charred corpses in that flick. What's important is the characters and themes and whether they connected to people.
For these fundamental flaws you speak of, all you have to do (and this part comes from a wonderful Youtuber called JayExci, one of those younger Prequel-loving fine folks, in the interest of full disclosure) is say "Yes, but I find THE WAY in which X was done was handled better in Y" and the argument goes right out the window. Unfortunately, the argument can't just Mary Poppins its way back in the window.
QuoteI've been doing it since walking out of Revenge of the Sith with the dreadful realization that it wasn't all going to be redeemed, hah.
My in the theatre with my two older brothers seeing Sith was one of the last times I ever saw my oldest brother. We all walked out at the end and said "Yeah, it was pretty good." My main concern was Palpatine in the final act. To this day, I ask the question "Why is he LIKE THAT?" I'd call that an acting decision, but at one point they put a demonic effect over his voice. That was ALL George. AGAIN. And to my knowledge, they NEVER did that again.
I can bypass a lot of the stuff you talked about by stressing that I meant Marvel and DC in general, not the movies. That makes things simple and clean. I enjoyed hearing your thoughts (I don't know what you were going on for about with Iron Man 3, since that was the first onscreen appearance of Mandarin, and we ARE getting a mulligan on that, twice over, but I digress) but it's not quite what I meant.
Funny thing, I HAVE watched all of the MCU tv shows and read ALL of the MCU tie-in comics, and they, you may be pleased to know, largely in line with the films themselves. Yes, The Netflix ones are considerably darker, but they still like they could take place in that world. The biggest contradiction I can recall in the tie-in comics is the method by which Black Widow cannot have children (and that may very well come up in the upcoming Black Widow film, since that film, like Guardians, very much has family on the brain)
QuoteOne of the key differences between Marvel on the one hand and DC and SW on the other is that Marvel's significant flaws have, almost universally, lain in the fringes. They haven't affected the overarching narrative. They built on extremely solid foundations and, until the very end (Thorbowski), continuing the journey never required you to accept their missteps, nor enshrined them within those foundations. With both DC and modern SW, the flaws are there from the inception, woven into the warp and weft of the stories themselves, an ever-present, inescapable subtext.
I'll tackle Bro Thor for a sec. Is he still a drunken buffoon there for yucks, or is he crippled by PTSD? He's both. You can't argue he's not. There's your objectivity. The execution, and whether it worked for you, is where the distinction lies. My unsullied (did not read the comics or watch the cartoons or play the games) fellow viewers of Thor Ragnarok and Endgame enjoyed Thor from top to bottom, while I roasted him and Thor 3 for being a SNL parody of itself, complete with Goldblum standing in for the hypothetical real bad guy. The fact that a phony version of Thor with stunt cast actors is a joke in the actual movie (with Sam Neil claiming he'll get to come back for Thor 4) is a perfect example of "biting the hand humor". And again, that's the
main gag in Wandavision, so it should be interesting when you get your claws into it.
It's funny too, because guess what (and again, this marks me as a MASSIVE hypocrite, and I apologized for it) I made sure to call out the two comic writers who had writing credits on the flick, because they did that crap (and killing off folks like it was going out of style) in the comics too, AND in the Thor vs. Wolverine animated movie. A quick google search reveals Thor fans back in the day called them out for "apparently not liking Thor very much" EVEN BACK THEN.
So yeah, I retract my original accusation of double standards on account of blatant hypocrisy.
Here's the real meat and potatoes of the discussion, as I see it. Boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew!
QuoteAs C.S. Lewis once said, one of the most important criteria in judging a work of art is understanding what it's trying to do. If we're judging a screwball comedy as if it's attempting to create a weighty dramatic story, we are both wrong and unfair. The same is true if we criticize a drama for not being funny. However, when a work declares its intentions, we must take it at its word. Thus, if a film tells us it's a comedy by employing musical cues and exaggerated performances, we're right to be hard on it if it isn't funny.
That's a great point! And the fact that you just triggered the proverbial trap
card makes it all the more enjoyable! :lol:
QuoteIn this way, Thor 3 and Ironman 3 are perfect examples. They declare with their titles and their structure that they are part o the MCU, that what came before, especially in terms of their own characters, is meant to be prologue, and thus they should be judged by whether or not they are faithful to those stories and portrayals. Those are the limitations of continued storytelling.
Considering the next few Marvel shows and Thor 4, I really am curious how you plan to judge new Marvel shows and movies that are continuations but upgrade supporting characters to the main roles, and in the case of WandaVision, literally warp the movie/show into a completely different genre and style. When you actually watch WV, we're apparently going to have a Civil War of our own based on this shindig. ;)
Anyway, here's the crab meat, the gotcha question from me:
If you watch a Filoni show and are dismissive of all the Filoni stuff that's in there for the Filoni fans and say you'd rather it not be there, then by your own definition, you are judging it wrong and unfairly. Perhaps you'll disagree with me on that point, but that's sure how it sounded to me. The show's not called "Star Wars: Episode 6.5" It's called "The Mandalorian" a phrase never once uttered in any of the movies. It's not a "bug" it's a "feature."
It's kinda like watching Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and saying "This is pretty good, but I'd really like less of the action and all that gorgeous New Zealand sceneary." Or if you prefer "This is good, but I'd really like less of this orcs and wizard malarkey and prefer them to shut up for two minutes so I can take in all this gorgeous scenary."
You specifically brought up Episode VI as an example, which is great, because whether that was a typo or not, it gives me an opening to point out that Return of the Jedi (which BTW is my favorite SW film of all time and likely always will be) features Boba Fett portrayed as something he was NEVER, to my knowledge, been portrayed as anywhere else in the official product AFAIK: a wimp, a chump, and a pushover.
Also you brought up plot holes. Not everyone agrees about how important plot holes are, in fact, there was a big debate about that very topic on YT a few years ago among a few content creators. And as I said in 2019, Endgame has plot holes you can fly a spaceship through, and yet it's a triumph of cinema.
Anyway, you know what I consider quite possibly the greatest plot hole in all of Star Wars? "They arrived right before you did." That's bugged me for almost my entire life. I'm sorry, but that is ALL OF THE IMPOSSIBLE. You're going to tell me the way larger, way slower ships and the very noisy smaller ships snuck in ahead of Han without him knowing it when he can, on top of all of that, jam their own transmissions, as seen in the original "Star Wars"? Nope, not buying it.
Oh no....anyway...
QuoteInteresting. I've read Tales and Dark Empire, but never such characterizations of Boba. I see that the trilogy you mentioned started at the end of the '90s, so I guess that's why. I had largely dropped out of SW stuff by that point. Curious.
Boba Fett and Tales of the Bounty Hunters....At first I thought I had a Mandala Effect, but digging out the paperback novel reveals some more truth in them there old "Legends". Also....That cover is just a bunch of photos or screenshots from the OT repurposed isn't it? Also the book is way smaller than I remembered...I guess I got a lot bigger...
Anyway: Pg 294-295. Under a tag for risque content and problematic content and "Why on Earth did you put that in a Star Wars?"
[offtopic]Summery: Two of Jabba's guards bring Leia, clad in the "brief costume that Jabba had allowed her" to Fett's room in Jabba's palace as a "gift from Jabba" to "enjoy." Leia tells Boba she'll defend herself, and Boba simply tells her it would inappropriate to enjoy said gift, which Leia seems glad to know, and that he thinks people should wait until marriage (um, good to know, Boba?) and then he gives her a sheet to cover up and Boba says he'll let her stay here for awhile because he doesn't want to risk Jabba throwing her to the Rancor, and then they talk about the Empire and the spice trade and a few other things. [/offtopic]
So yeah. There you go. That one bizarrely out of place scene did a lot to shape how I viewed ol' Boba the Fett. I wonder if Filoni and co read that.
QuoteAnakin: Yeah, I've encountered the Prequel love in my students. It boggles my mind, but I suppose it just shows that most folks have terrible taste, especially young people! :D After all, I once loved The Inhumanoids...
Not helping your case there. Especially since, if we're talking about "objective quality" almost ANY form of art and entertainment is better than American 80's action cartoons. They were all low on quality control, low on plot and character development, and were
literally, due to changing regulations at the time, toy commercials. Which is why I don't particularly care for the original G1 Transformers cartoon or Superfriends, except the animated movie and when remixed in later works (Ultimen, ect)
Anakin: You took that better than I thought, mostly in stride, but my issue still remains even after I laid it all out pretty well. What gets my proverbial goat is you went past bashing the material and insulted the fans. To quote Old Man Luke "You went straight to the darkness. You didn't even question it." Insulting the fans....we don't even let the creators and the press do that, and if we do it amongst ourselves, we'll be hearing about "Toxic fandoms" for the rest of our gosh darn lives.
See, me personally, I'll joke around and talk a little smack, but I would NEVER go to where the Reylos go to hang out and enjoy themselves and call them names because they get something out of Star Wars that I don't. I think it would reflect badly on me and I'd rather do something more fun.
I understand you're not ingrained in the fandom nearly as much as me and some of the others in this thread....which is why we extensively explained it all like we're Clarrissa (ladies and gentlemen, the most obscure reference in this entire thread!)
QuoteRedemption: Here your attitude and mine part ways dramatically. I just want to avoid the stuff that reminds me of the low points.
I believe that would make you the equivalent to those "new viewers" opting into the sequel trilogy, isn't that so? The one's who you said are less important to the project's goals?
So uh, yeah, glad you enjoyed Mandalorian S2. Let me know if you're ever going to opt into any of the new stuff. We can reconvene for Lando or maybe Andor (WHY ARE YOU MAKING THE SHOW DISNEY?). Yes, LANDO is getting his own tv series. They haven't said which actor yet.
Well, the promised day has arrived. Honest Trailers: The Mandalorian Season 2. Oh, I've waited so long for this! In the immortal words of Baxter Stockman, this is gonna be gud! :D
Not sure if I should link to it though. It's a little bit edgy, a little racy and a little bit political.
"[...] A show that's either the greatest thing that we've ever seen....or live action Star Wars has lowered our expectations so much, basic competence seems like seeing the face of god! [shows Pedro Pascal's face while angelic music plays]"
There you go, Benton! Something for everyone to enjoy! ^_^
Now, in case anyone here
hasn't actually seen Mando S2 and plans to, keep in mind this is Honest Trailers and they consistently spoil all of the things.
"In a winning mix that keeps things simple, and doesn't overstay its welcome, so you can be sure to Sith they'll launch enough spinoffs to kill the magic for good next year."
No.....that's not true......THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!
Goldarnit, Mando S3 is gonna be it's equivalent to Doom Patrol S2, Rick and Morty S4, Game of Thrones S8, the entire middle half of Agents of Shield, the entirety of Post-Crisis Flash and Supergirl and the collective movie content of post-Force Awakens Star Wars, isn't it? It's ok, I've been burned before, I can take it.
*Honest Trailers attempts to argue that getting the same thing too often will ruin it, then eventually concedes the point*
GOOOOOOOOOD.
"Unless it's Marvel."
*Raises finger, thinks for a second*
Give it time. One of those Disney + shows is
bound to be just ok to pretty bad. Let's be real here, the Marvel Netflix shows were
not equal in quality. My money's on Moon Knight! Sorry Poe Dameron, even you can't fly this one to the promised land!
*Or Pixar films [...]"
*SS bites his lip* You know what? I've been contrarian enough lately. Let's just say Toy Story is love, yes, including the 4th one, and at the very least, Incredibles 2 sounded good on paper and had Bob Odenkirk as more or less Saul Goodman.
"Bonding with Baby Yoda over their shared love of murder" It's so true.
And yes, I STILL call him Baby Yoda.
Wow, they really DO talk about making deals a lot in this show. At least they ran it through their thesaurus a few times.
Spoiler
"The most popular characters from the Clone Wars series"
I was going to make a joke about Cad Bane, Hondo and The Son, but give it time. I imagine all three of them will be showing up in the spinoffs. I mean, the Veil of the Force is right there on the logo plate for Ahsoka!
"This season's most meaningful death ..."
WAS THE BANTHA?! :o
"[...] Was when they killed off a major merchandizing opportunity [shows the Razor Crest being blow to bits]"
And YES, a lot of fans did scream out when that happened.
"As Favreau and Filoni deliver the second best Star Wars television experience. But you all know what's still #1...
*plays Clone Wars intro*
Me: *Nods at screen*
HT: NO! I'm talking about the intro to the Droids cartoon!
MAH MAN! That intro was dope! :thumbup:
"Starring [...] *gets to Dark Troopers* DARKNESS! NO PARENTS"
SS: *bursts out laughing* Man, now I want Will Arnett in a Star Wars!
"[...] Stormtroopers giving themselves away"
I KNOW RIGHT? What part of "TAKE COVER, THERE'S A SNIPER SHOOTING YOU" don't those guys understand? That episode was business, but I swear, Stormtroopers have
never been more useless than under Disney!
"You're from Alderaan, right? You lose anyone?" HT: *shows footage of Alderaan being destroyed* Yeah, I'm guessing you did.
Joker, you wanna field this one:
IF YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN THE JOKE, THEN THERE IS NO JOKE!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bhsKlz8xkg)
Yeah, the Honest Trailers was once again pretty much spot-on. Haha, it was excellent. I didn't get the Dark Trooper thing at first, ha. That makes sense now.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 31, 2021, 10:07:19 AM
Quote@Benton Watch the Siege of Mandalore as one movie. If that doesn't get you interested in CW,nothing will.
That IS a good suggestion, but it sounds like Benton made it clear he's not watching that stuff no matter what. And you know what? THAT'S FINE. I've got stuff I'll never opt into. Mostly in the realm of comic content. For Star Wars and Marvel and DC shows and movies, I watch basically EVERYTHING. It might take a while, but I do. I can't possibly expect all my peers to do the same because it's completely unreasonable.
Nope, I never said I would never watch it, though I understand how you could get that impression. I actually watched the first several episodes of
Clone Wars in the last few weeks, before we canceled our Disney+ subscription. It was okay, though I wasn't wowed, and the Prequel-ness certainly bothered me. However, I didn't get a chance to watch what HT suggested yet. I'll keep it in mind, though.
I'll put my response to your main points in spoilers as well, so DJ can ignore it and focus on his drinking....
Spoiler
Quote
Objective....to quote the Princess Bride: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Objective quality, in the context of art and literature is a nebulous concept. It functionally doesn't exist. You get 12 angry men in a room and ask them to discuss the concept and agree on stuff and they'll argue and likely none of them will sway each other. You get 12 calm, well mannered, highly educated scholars and/or philosophers to do the same and you may very well get the same result. It's a bad argument. The fact that you and I can disagree about these things prove that it is not objective. And I could PROVE that by picking apart the original trilogy in ways that are pretty hard to deny, but easy to say "Yeah, but that's not a deal breaker for me."
A) That isn't actually what I meant, though I can't blame you for being confused, as I didn't define my terms. I thought the context would provide enough clarity, and it seems I was wrong. However, you raise a really interesting point that is worth discussing, so I'll come back to my actual argument after addressing what you say here.
B ) Haha...you know, I said the exact same thing to one of my professors nearly twenty years ago...what I didn't realize then is that I thought that, and I imagine you think this, largely because we were born in the 20th century. The subjectivity of art is not a (post) modern invention, but its dominant fashionability most certainly is. This is one of the "gods of the marketplace," as C. S. Lewis put it, the current fashions that get mistaken for laws. Do not mistake the current for the true.
For the overwhelmingly vast majority of human history, the dominant understandings of art were built on the idea that there was an objective standard to which it did or did not adhere, a good that it did or did not accomplish. We find it in mystical and pure form in Plato (the ideal forms), a much more systematized and practical form in Aristotle, we see it achieving explicitly religious significance with Augustine, and Augustine and Aristotle form the basis for the medieval views of art, which are further refined by Dante and some of the other titans of the period, both religious and secular in a philosophy that saw art as one of our pathways to the divine. That did not change with the Renaissance either, and in fact, with luminaries like Petrarch, art became even weightier, almost a second religion unto itself. The Victorian period took on a more socially focused view, but the dominant idea remained that there was an objective standard for art. It is only in the last 70 or 80 years that a radical subjectivity has become popular, and that view, though dominant, is hardly unchallenged (for example, by the Inklings). I believe the same pattern holds true in the East, with Confucious playing the foundational role of Plato/Aristotle, though I'm less familiar with the specifics.
In fact, do you believe that there are ways that people should act, things that are always wrong or right, no matter the circumstances? Chances are you do, if you think hard enough about it. Most of us have a point at which we say 'this far and no further.' Well, if you do, you believe in some form of objective moral order, however vague and undefined. This is, of course, also an obvious consequence of belief in a supreme being, as with the major monotheistic religions. If you believe in an objective order to the universe, and most people do, whether they realize it or not, it is a completely reasonable argument that an objective standard for art is a necessary minor secondary premise for such a belief. This is the case for systematic Christian theology, for example, though hardly limited to that tradition. If there is an objective standard for our conduct, things we should or should not be doing, then the things we make would logically have some capacity to conform (or not) to such a standard.
You point out that we could have a group of people in a room with different opinions and cite various examples of poor judgment of art. And? Why would it necessarily follow that an objective standard would be obviously apparent, or that it should be any more proof against self-deception or confusion than, say, morality or any other metaphysical subject? Just because people disagree about it doesn't mean it isn't there. Some people believe the Earth is flat. Belief is not necessarily a barometer for truth. We once shared more clearly defined standards for judging art, and it is possible we could do so again. Fashions and cultures change.
So, no, the question of an objective standard for art is not quite as simple and settled as you might imagine, or as I once imagined. As it happens, these days I'm a Christian archetypalist, and I see things more or less the same way the Inklings did, in line with the Platonic/Aristotelian tradition, that there is an objective nature to the universe, and that our art is best, in terms of transcendent value as opposed to technical quality, when it most closely approaches that structure. However, though I find this subject fascinating, this is only tangentially related to what I was talking about.
A1) I was imprecise with my terminology in my post. I should have said
more objective standard in that context. I was talking about the fact that a continued narrative sets forth requirements and stakes out territory for other stories told in that bailiwick. That is a
more objective standard by which to judge future stories than a story told in isolation has. As I set out, future stories either conform to those standards or do not. This is an extension of the measures of technical craftsmanship like internal coherence and logical consistency, measures by which the new films also fail.
To be clear, I think the first of the new films fails, as film, on a technical level, often exhibiting poor craftsmanship. I think they all fail as
Star Wars films on the level of coherence with the stories to which they explicitly link themselves, and at times, in terms of themes (but far from completely, on that score).
QuoteFor these fundamental flaws you speak of, all you have to do (and this part comes from a wonderful Youtuber called JayExci, one of those younger Prequel-loving fine folks, in the interest of full disclosure) is say "Yes, but I find THE WAY in which X was done was handled better in Y" and the argument goes right out the window. Unfortunately, the argument can't just Mary Poppins its way back in the window.
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
QuoteFunny thing, I HAVE watched all of the MCU tv shows and read ALL of the MCU tie-in comics, and they, you may be pleased to know, largely in line with the films themselves. Yes, The Netflix ones are considerably darker, but they still like they could take place in that world. The biggest contradiction I can recall in the tie-in comics is the method by which Black Widow cannot have children (and that may very well come up in the upcoming Black Widow film, since that film, like Guardians, very much has family on the brain)
I've watched most of this stuff (finally gave up on
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.), and more or less felt the same way. Man, was
Iron Fist a let-down, though!
QuoteI'll tackle Bro Thor for a sec. Is he still a drunken buffoon there for yucks, or is he crippled by PTSD? He's both. You can't argue he's not. There's your objectivity. The execution, and whether it worked for you, is where the distinction lies. My unsullied (did not read the comics or watch the cartoons or play the games) fellow viewers of Thor Ragnarok and Endgame enjoyed Thor from top to bottom, while I roasted him and Thor 3 for being a SNL parody of itself, complete with Goldblum standing in for the hypothetical real bad guy. The fact that a phony version of Thor with stunt cast actors is a joke in the actual movie (with Sam Neil claiming he'll get to come back for Thor 4) is a perfect example of "biting the hand humor". And again, that's the main gag in Wandavision, so it should be interesting when you get your claws into it.
I'm confused. Execution is no less a valid point of critique than premise, so I'm not sure what you think you're proving here. I have zero problems with the
premise of Thor with PTSD. It's a fascinating idea and not necessarily incompatible with his established characterization. In fact, a competent treatment of the 1,000-year-old Thunder God actually dealing with this type of trauma in a self-consistent fashion would be really interesting. However, in terms of execution, it was done almost as badly as
Thor III, with every single moment of emotional weight undercut for a cheap joke. And
that characterization in practice is
not consistent with his previous characterization and breaks the rules they chose to play by when they told a story in an established universe. There's your (greater) objectivity.
QuoteThat's a great point! And the fact that you just triggered the proverbial trap card makes it all the more enjoyable! :lol:
Considering the next few Marvel shows and Thor 4, I really am curious how you plan to judge new Marvel shows and movies that are continuations but upgrade supporting characters to the main roles, and in the case of WandaVision, literally warp the movie/show into a completely different genre and style. When you actually watch WV, we're apparently going to have a Civil War of our own based on this shindig. ;)
Assuming that
WandaVision actually accounts for the changes in characterization and tone (and by all accounts, it sounds like it will/is), I'll have no problem. The issue isn't that you can't make changes; it's that you have to justify those changes with good storytelling. Cap and Tony both end up in very different places than where they start their MCU arcs. That's fine. In fact, that's the
nature of an arc. It's when characters change drastically with no reason and/or inconsistently, that it becomes a matter of poor craftsmanship.
QuoteAnyway, here's the crab meat, the gotcha question from me:
If you watch a Filoni show and are dismissive of all the Filoni stuff that's in there for the Filoni fans and say you'd rather it not be there, then by your own definition, you are judging it wrong and unfairly. Perhaps you'll disagree with me on that point, but that's sure how it sounded to me. The show's not called "Star Wars: Episode 6.5" It's called "The Mandalorian" a phrase never once uttered in any of the movies. It's not a "bug" it's a "feature."
Come now, this is hair-splitting. A story doesn't have to be explicitly labeled "continuation #blank" to make its intentions clear and bind it by the rules of its game. The show is set in the Star Wars universe and is set explicitly after the original Star Wars films. It is playing by clear rules. And, as I think I made clear, it mostly follows them. I can't fault the show on a technical level for bringing in Prequel stuff, since that's part of the toolbox they're working with. In terms of my distaste for Prequel elements in the show, I think I was pretty clear that it was only a matter of my personal taste.
QuoteYou specifically brought up Episode VI as an example, which is great, because whether that was a typo or not, it gives me an opening to point out that Return of the Jedi (which BTW is my favorite SW film of all time and likely always will be) features Boba Fett portrayed as something he was NEVER, to my knowledge, been portrayed as anywhere else in the official product AFAIK: a wimp, a chump, and a pushover.
Before that point, he's in...what...four scenes? Briefly? There's not much of an established presence to deviate
from. About all that we
do get is that he's cold and ruthless. I'd argue that his appearance in
Jedi is far too small and random to justify your description, but even if it were accurate, it's literally the only time we see him fight, so nothing to deviate from. Most characterization happens outside of the movies in the expanded universe, which is why I don't have strong feelings about his characterization in the show.
QuoteAlso you brought up plot holes. Not everyone agrees about how important plot holes are, in fact, there was a big debate about that very topic on YT a few years ago among a few content creators. And as I said in 2019, Endgame has plot holes you can fly a spaceship through, and yet it's a triumph of cinema.
That's true, which is why there are holistic standards for measuring quality, and you don't just say, 'plot hole, fail!' It's just like grading a paper. Grammar, transitions, argument, evidence, structure, etc.: these are all elements that combine to make a good or bad paper. But you don't fail someone because they screw up in one category. Their score is determined by how they perform across
all the categories. This is what I stressed in previous posts. Plot holes are
one element among many, one piece of internal coherence and logical consistency. The reason
Endgame gets praised, despite those flaws, is that it succeeds by a host of other measurements.
QuoteAnyway, you know what I consider quite possibly the greatest plot hole in all of Star Wars? "They arrived right before you did." That's bugged me for almost my entire life. I'm sorry, but that is ALL OF THE IMPOSSIBLE. You're going to tell me the way larger, way slower ships and the very noisy smaller ships snuck in ahead of Han without him knowing it when he can, on top of all of that, jam their own transmissions, as seen in the original "Star Wars"? Nope, not buying it.
You're forgetting the context of the scene. The Falcon had no hyperdrive. All Boba Fett had to do was follow them for a while, figure out where they were headed (which systems could they reach on sublight?), and then contact Vader and jump over to Bespin. The bad guys have to do the same reasoning Han does and which we see happen. It's all there in the scene.
Quote[offtopic]Summery: Two of Jabba's guards bring Leia, clad in the "brief costume that Jabba had allowed her" to Fett's room in Jabba's palace as a "gift from Jabba" to "enjoy." Leia tells Boba she'll defend herself, and Boba simply tells her it would inappropriate to enjoy said gift, which Leia seems glad to know, and that he thinks people should wait until marriage (um, good to know, Boba?) and then he gives her a sheet to cover up and Boba says he'll let her stay here for awhile because he doesn't want to risk Jabba throwing her to the Rancor, and then they talk about the Empire and the spice trade and a few other things. [/offtopic]
So yeah. There you go. That one bizarrely out of place scene did a lot to shape how I viewed ol' Boba the Fett. I wonder if Filoni and co read that.
Ha! Well, okay then. That is sure random. Who would have guessed Boba Fett read
True Love Waits...
QuoteNot helping your case there. Especially since, if we're talking about "objective quality" almost ANY form of art and entertainment is better than American 80's action cartoons. They were all low on quality control, low on plot and character development, and were literally, due to changing regulations at the time, toy commercials. Which is why I don't particularly care for the original G1 Transformers cartoon or Superfriends, except the animated movie and when remixed in later works (Ultimen, ect)
Yeah, my point was that taste (hopefully) evolves. As for the quality of 80s cartoons in general, that's a separate, larger conversation.
QuoteAnakin: You took that better than I thought, mostly in stride, but my issue still remains even after I laid it all out pretty well. What gets my proverbial goat is you went past bashing the material and insulted the fans. To quote Old Man Luke "You went straight to the darkness. You didn't even question it." Insulting the fans....we don't even let the creators and the press do that, and if we do it amongst ourselves, we'll be hearing about "Toxic fandoms" for the rest of our gosh darn lives.
See, me personally, I'll joke around and talk a little smack, but I would NEVER go to where the Reylos go to hang out and enjoy themselves and call them names because they get something out of Star Wars that I don't. I think it would reflect badly on me and I'd rather do something more fun.
I understand you're not ingrained in the fandom nearly as much as me and some of the others in this thread....which is why we extensively explained it all like we're Clarrissa (ladies and gentlemen, the most obscure reference in this entire thread!)
I guess you're talking about me calling people "stupid" here? I wasn't being particularly serious in that statement, as should be clear from later statements.
Quote
I believe that would make you the equivalent to those "new viewers" opting into the sequel trilogy, isn't that so? The one's who you said are less important to the project's goals?
You seem to enjoy putting words in my mouth, SS. I didn't say such fans were less important. In fact, I didn't comment on them one way or the other. I said that the films contain implicit information on how they should be judged. And in terms of pop culture, I
am less important than folks like you who are buying what they're selling these days, and I've said as much before. They aren't making stories for me. That makes me sad, but it isn't exactly surprising.
QuoteSo uh, yeah, glad you enjoyed Mandalorian S2. Let me know if you're ever going to opt into any of the new stuff. We can reconvene for Lando or maybe Andor (WHY ARE YOU MAKING THE SHOW DISNEY?). Yes, LANDO is getting his own tv series. They haven't said which actor yet.
Sheesh, it just keeps getting more ridiculous! I would actually be mildly interested in a well-made story following young Lando's misadventures, but the field is going to be so crowded that I wonder if anything will have room to succeed.
QuoteI actually watched the first several episodes of Clone Wars in the last few weeks, before we canceled our Disney+ subscription. It was okay, though I wasn't wowed, and the Prequel-ness certainly bothered me.
That would be the expected reaction at first. First season was a bit rough. And the premiere movie is not that great,tbh. But it gets better soon.
And sorry if Im mansplaining here,but the episodes are not in the chronological order,and IMO watching them in the right order is a massive improvement. Since some arcs are not in pieces over 2-3 seasons.
https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-clone-wars-chronological-episodeorder (https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-clone-wars-chronological-episodeorder)
Ha, that sounds unnecessarily complicated. And no, I don't think that's mansplaining, HT. I didn't know that, and I imagine the average new viewer wouldn't either.
I figured there's probably increasing returns as the show finds its feet. I'm not writing it off after those episodes, by any means. But it's not at the top of my list of content to see.
QuoteNope, I never said I would never watch it, though I understand how you could get that impression. I actually watched the first several episodes of Clone Wars in the last few weeks, before we canceled our Disney+ subscription. It was okay, though I wasn't wowed, and the Prequel-ness certainly bothered me. However, I didn't get a chance to watch what HT suggested yet. I'll keep it in mind, though.
Apparently I've misjudged you.
Again. Another apology from me. I like to think one of these days I'm gonna get this right. Or maybe the squeaky wheel gets the grease. That's cool too. Hey, you did check out an episode of TF Cyberverse (which is similar to Clone Wars in a few relevant respects, actually.)
Alright, I've got a few questions:
1) Which episodes?
2) Was this
before or after WandaVision came out? *Does the Fry squint*
You win this time, Benton, but we'll meet again! :sshocker
I'll get to your tagged response at a later time, I'm afraid....rest I need.....rest...
QuoteHa, that sounds unnecessarily complicated. And no, I don't think that's mansplaining, HT. I didn't know that, and I imagine the average new viewer wouldn't either.
Oh snap, I totally forgot about that. Another long overdue rant.
Star Wars does a lot of bizarre things (Darth Maul, anyone?) But one of the most bizarre, for sure, has to be when be The Clone Wars made following the story not only far more confusing than it needed to be, but, in sense, impossible for people like myself who watched it as it aired on tv.
Starting with the pilot movie, which was released in theatres, meaning by the time I had the chance to rent it, I'd had already seen about half the season of so, and Ahsoka was just kinda hanging around like she was always there. Which is pretty bad considering a pretty big part of the plot of the pilot movie is explaining why she's there, and getting her and Anakin to start teaming up and establish something resembling a respect for each other. It's also the debut of Rex, a major recurring TCW character who is meeting Ahsoka for the first time, and their relationship is actually pretty important. Her line "Technically I outrank you", and Rex's initial response to it "In my book, experience is more important every time", featured at the beginning of that video I linked to earlier in the thread, ends up coming up again in a meaningful way in the final arc of the series, Siege of Mandalore) Anakin also gets his ship, The Twilight, which is featured in other episodes of the show (it's a spice freighter, which is, yes, a reference to a single line of dialogue from "Star Wars")
We later have an episode that returns to the events of the pilot movie. Then things really go off the rails when bounty hunter Cad Bane appears in S2. He has a little helper droid, To-Do, voiced by Seth Green, who's appearance in a later episode, Evil Plans, automatically marks it as being before the entire "Holocron Heist" story arc. Not only that, Ziro's appearance in "Hostage Crisis" gets shuffled
much later in the timeline, because Bane's springing him out of jail, when they
haven't shown how he ended up in jail yet. And that was just a few of them. I seem to recall there's more.
QuoteI figured there's probably increasing returns as the show finds its feet. I'm not writing it off after those episodes, by any means. But it's not at the top of my list of content to see.
I may or may not have mentioned this, but even hardcore TCW fans don't even consider Season 1 to be particularly good (myself included). S2 is a bit better right off the bat (but I'm biased because I was a big Cad Bane fan) but the mid-point of S3, starting with The Mortis arc is when it becomes "The Clone Wars" as people know it. Yet, it won't carry quite as much weight if you skip to it, and the Nightsisters arc
definately won't.
Alright Benton, this is where it
really starts to feel like homework. Get ready to tear your hair out.
I've got good news, bad news and worse news.
The bad news is you've got to watch the
first Clone Wars series to fully appreciate the narrative of TCW, if you haven't already. Because what the pilot movie does for Ahsoka, the Gendy Tartokovski series does for Assaj Ventress, bringing her in and establishing her relationship with Dooku (she's his sorta-kinda apprentice), which ends up being important for both the very first episode of the Nightsisters arc and the entire overall story going forward.
It's also required to appreciate General Grievious! Yes, really. In that show Grevious is a Terminator-esque nightmare who has the Jedi running for their lives in terror, and his rapid Boba-Fett-esque villain decay (a result of "Clone Wars" coming out
before RotS) is addressed in a meta-way several times over in TCW, culminating in him going to war with the Nightsisters, who, as I mentioned earlier, are actually really important to the plot as the stories featuring them send a ripple effect through the narrative that eventually involves Savage, Maul, Obi-Wan, all of the Mandalorian characters including Bo-Katan, Assaj, Barris, Ahsoka all the way down to the final arc of TCW, Siege of Mandalore.
The good news is that series is
really, really good. So much so that the first season of TCW got absolutely raked through the coils (including by myself) for not being nearly as impressive or epic as it. it also features Shaggi from Scooby-Doo as a Jedi. Yes, really. He doesn't have a particularly impressive showing. As the internet meme goes, he must not have been using his full power. ^_^
The bad news is it is not on Disney +, and also whoever did the voice of Anakin in that show is doing a terrible Hayden impression that's arguably worse than Hayden's acting in the prequels. And also the voices for Assaj, Shaak Tii, Luminara, Barriss and Kit Fisto are different in that show, including in some cases having drastically different
accents. And that's without even getting into the different art styles.
The good news is it (The CGI "The Clone Wars" or TCW, series) is something of an anthology style, and jumping around and just watching the ones you want is not only an legit option, it may be the best option if you're trying to get into the series late on a tight schedule. And since "Clone Wars" isn't on D+, dismissing it or simply reading a summery online or checking out short clips on YT (it is a series of shorts, though on DVD, which I own, it takes the format of two 1h movies) is probably best.
Oh, and if you want to know what happened to Darth Maul and the Mandalorians between the show's cancellation and the revival season on D+, beyond a single line of dialogue, you have to read a comic book miniseries, and if you want the ending of Assaj's story, you have to read a novel! (and *I* haven't even read that one. Though I did look up what happens, and it's pretty appropriate and hopefully actually plays in novel form)
OH, BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE!
On at least two occasions, WEBCOMICS were required reading to understand the plot. Yes, really. In the S1 arc when Hondo and his pirates captured Dooku (just roll with it), Anakin and Obi-Wan foil an attempt to be captured via drugged drinks, only to be shown having been drugged and and captured off screen in the next episode. It happened in a webcomic. Then in early S2, Cad Bane has captured Rodian Jedi Bolla Rapal offscreen, and tortures him to gain information relevant to the titular Holocron Heist. This ALSO happened in a webcomic, and we learn how Bane pulled it off. He had a gun that shorts out lightsabers (it is made out of somesuch sci-fi something or other that existed in the lore).
So if something in the first two seasons or so happens and there's a weird disconnect between episodes where something important happened offscreen, know that it either happened in an episode that aired a good season later, or in a now-obscure and harder to find webcomic. Fun stuff! :D
Thing that shorts out lightsabers was probably cortosis. I wonder if thats still a thing in Disney canon.
One thing that the Tartakovsky series had over CW was Durge. Durge was a beast.
Btw,considering he had a vendetta against Mandalorians, maybe he shows up in Mandalorian.
QuoteThing that shorts out lightsabers was probably cortosis. I wonder if thats still a thing in Disney canon.
It was, and it is. It showed up in Rebels.
Also, based on Wookipedia, both "Clone Wars" AND the webcomics are no longer considered official canon, despite them explaining and setting up stuff that pays off in TCW. So hurray, in official canon, stuff just happens with no explanation! GREAT CONTINUITY! *shakes head*
QuoteOne thing that the Tartakovsky series had over CW was Durge. Durge was a beast.
Btw,considering he had a vendetta against Mandalorians, maybe he shows up in Mandalorian.
YUP. Since he's not in TCW at all, I tend to forget about him. He was a highlight. I also loved Shaak-Ti's entourage ("Ithorian lungs. Very strong.") Actually that show has one of my favorite versions of Shaak-Ti period. I've always loved the way she looks in that show's art style.
As for Durge appearing in the Mandoverse, possibly, this is Filoni we're talking about here, and with all the stuff being subtracted from Mando for the spinoffs, they're going to have to put
something in there.
Diving into the wiki reveals Durge was inspired by Akira (no surprise there) and that he was going to be in TCW and was swapped out for Cad Bane. Hmm, maybe a team-up could be in the works.
Gotta tell ya, I'm getting real tempted to rewatch both Clone Wars and read the comics now.
*Checks wiki* OMG the Ahsoka novel and Dark Disciple have audio books, with the Ahsoka one narrated by her actual voice actress! And Dark Desciple's audio book is done by Marc Thompson, whose audio book work I've heard is excellent!
You know, I haven't actually
finished a novel in well over a decade. I've been meaning to look into the comic adaptations of Zahn's books and audio books in general as an practical alternative to reading them. I may have to look into this.
For the next season we have the Darksaber plot...and depends if its really setting up a new sequel trilogy,we might expect more Imperial/First Order stuff.
Well,if you are getting into audiobooks,get some WH40K books. Im making my way thru Horus Heresy these days.
QuoteWell,if you are getting into audiobooks,get some WH40K books. Im making my way thru Horus Heresy these days.
Sorry, I've got WAY too many properties on my multiple spinning plates these days to get into Warhammer. And I won't troll you by joking about reading the comics. ;)
Oh, also if you want to know how Ahsoka got her second lightsaber, you have to watch one of the Forces of Destiny animated shorts.
FoD also confirms that 1) Hera was on the Forest Moon of Endor. Makes you wonder if Hera will be showing up in live action and 2) Ewoks were in fact cooking and eating Stormtroopers.
Also I was looking through the wiki and remembered that I've got a bunch of SW novels from the 90's and early 2000's that I never read. I should dig some of those out! I'm kinda getting into this.
Fair enough. I also drifted away for a few year,but then I read the Space Sharks duology (so far) and things escalated. Greatest fictional universe ever.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on February 08, 2021, 02:44:33 PM
2) Ewoks were in fact cooking and eating Stormtroopers.
:faint
Star Wars: Forces of Destiny: S1ep16: Imperial Feast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs_vQgnVnIM&list=PLR4qvTE1cSnoICGM_gfSedDPp18c3FluC&index=14&t=80s)
I mean, they did try to cook Han and the others in RotJ, but their "god" didn't approve. (You can even hear the Ewoks using the same chant) The characters should have just told 3P0 to get them to stop that time too.
Watch Filoni and Faveraux have Imperial Remnant Stormtroopers in Mando S3 talk about how they were almost cooked and eaten by Ewoks on the moon of Endor. Wouldn't put it past them.
Leia: Please let them go. We must treat the enemy fairly.
The apple sure fell far from the tree.
Anakin *stabs Separatist Admiral through the chest* Admiral, it was a pleasure *admiral falls over dead*
Also, something I wanted to share for a while but forgot.....Robot Chicken's Star Wars parodies strangely predicted Mandalorian in ways that amused a lot of people, myself included....
We had EV-9D9 as a bartender on Tattooine, and also....
Spoiler
Boba Fett coming "Back from the Dead", beating the stuffing out of a whole buncha people, using his long range missile while joking about whether or not it works properly, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ngnk2_6Ows) and lastly a post-credit scene where he takes over Jabba's Palace alongside one other person he met along the way. He even teases a hypothetical "Episode 7" and tells Solo to watch his a$$... Oh no, Disney, please, not a CGI Harrison Ford. Say it ain't so!
So two interesting pieces of news concerning the Mandoverse:
1. In a move that surprised pretty much nobody, Gina Carano (Cara Dune) has been fired from all future Star Wars projects, for doing a politics on social media one too many times.
Apparently it was never confirmed that she was going to be in Rangers of the New Republic, but it was expected she was going to be. As with Mando himself (Djin Djarin/Pedro Pascal), the title can apply to other characters, thus you can do Republic Rangers with a brand new cast of characters.
2. Pedro Pascal has been cast as Joel, one of the two main characters of the original Last of Us video game, in the HBO tv series adaptation. This may or may not indicate that Pedro will in fact be written out of Mando S3. Time will tell, but to give one example where the writing was on the wall, Sonequa Martin-Green being cast as the lead in Star Trek Discovery made it none too surprising when her character in The Walking Dead was written out just in time for that show to come out.
On the other hand, Dwayne Johnson starred in the HBO series Ballers, which ran for *checks wiki* 5 seasons and 47 episodes. So time will tell.
There are reports they planned to announce her getting a show back in November, but quietly iced it when she started going off on twitter. It's been speculated they quietly fired her then, but the recent dust up made them go public with it.
As for Pascal, I sort of doubt it. They might have him around less, but I can't imagine they can't schedule around him. Especially given he's usually in head to toe armor, they can shoot fill in scenes around him, and losing him and the child would be risky, ESPECIALLY with the positive buzz he's had lately.
So yeah, I can see them pivot away and do some din-lite episodes focusing on other Mandalorians, but I think he'll be around.
They could 'Vader' it. Have his stuntman, or someone with similar body type do the filming, and he just has to supply the vocals.
Quote from: Tomato on February 12, 2021, 12:47:18 AM
There are reports they planned to announce her getting a show back in November, but quietly iced it when she started going off on twitter. It's been speculated they quietly fired her then, but the recent dust up made them go public with it.
One of the sources that came up in the article said exactly that last part, and Disney's statement sounded like that was the case.
QuoteAs for Pascal, I sort of doubt it. They might have him around less, but I can't imagine they can't schedule around him. Especially given he's usually in head to toe armor, they can shoot fill in scenes around him, and losing him and the child would be risky, ESPECIALLY with the positive buzz he's had lately.
As I said earlier, he already had stunt men in the suit as early as S1, which didn't surprise me. And the rumor is he'll be relegated to an 98% VO role, but that's assuming the rumours about him being a bit of a prima donna on set are true. Which I could believe because pretty much
every Mando-related rumor has come true so far, with the one exception I can recall being that Captain Rex would be in the show (though supposedly he'll be in Ahsoka)
QuoteSo yeah, I can see them pivot away and do some din-lite episodes focusing on other Mandalorians, but I think he'll be around.
Well, I've grumbled several times about them doing a Cassian Andor show with no K2 in S1, which I think is an absolutely asinine idea, but I personally would rather see a prequel series about Donnie Yen's Cherrut, but the problem is they run into him after they get K2, and if you've seen that movie, you know that team up just isn't an option in a series. So I would like to see is something akin to The Clone Wars and Better Call Saul, where it kinda jumps back and forth (I also would enjoy a young Cherrut, not Donnie Yen but a younger actor) and thus I could see them doing something like that for Mando S3.
Again, who knows, I could give examples and go "See, that's proves it" and then go "Oh that's right, Maisie Williams was in almost an entire season of Doctor Who while also in Game of Thrones" so ultimately it's completely arbitrary. As Quint from Resident Evil: Revelations said, I don't want to jump to conclusions, I need more intel.