So here we are, feel free to give an honest opinion. But please keep tempers to a minimum.
I know I've been hard on people for doing this, but I think I always made it an issue of giving credit where credit is due. I think that we should have a permissions thread similar to what we have for skoping. Let permissions be given, let rules be made. Same deal.
I know it's been a while since I've actually made a skin, so I don't know how relevant my opinion is, but I think if a skinner is willing to allow his or her skins to be kitbashed for either the purpose of being used for a skope, or a mesh, or even just to create a new skin, then I think that maybe it should be allowed.
Like I said, as long as the original creators have given permission and are credited, I don't think that there should be an issue.
So what does everyone else think?
Like nifskoping it should be based on the creators wishes.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 12, 2013, 06:19:24 PM
... kitbash the heck out of whatever you would like of my work and distribute wherever you want. If it keeps you interested in this community and FF I know my time wasn't wasted.
Also have fun! This is suppose to be gaming community.
I feel the same as AA. I hope to see more folks get involved in the community and create content. If there is anything of mine that is helpful, please use it and have fun doing it!!
:thumbup:
In case I wasn't clear, I give permission for my skins to be kitbashed. However, I will say that I have three rules.
1. Make sure that you create a "Read_Me" file which states the name(s) of which skin(s) of mine you used.
2. Make sure proper credit is given in your "Read_Me" file. If you are kitbashing my skins, make sure you give me credit for what I did, and make sure to give credit to the creator of the base skin(s) that I used.
3. Make sure you have fun. :D
4. It's not mandatory, but I would like to see what you have created.
Edit: Amended rules because I like what Tomato said about being able to see what was created.
While I agree that it would be a great idea for new creators to use whatever they wish in creating new content (I know that I do for personal projects), I also think that it is more fair to not allow the release of kittbashed skins unless otherwise specified.
In the Total War forums, we (the moderators) are rather strict on new users if they use the material of another user, but we don't outright lash them for a first offense (or second, depending on how extreme the offense is). We just tell them that it is against site policy to use another member's material/creations without permission and then we go about our business as usual. No hard feelings for either party (though, seldomly, we do get users who feel personally attacked when such action is taken). There have been several cases in which a user outright stole from another content creator, claiming that they had permission, or (even worse) that the content was of their own creation.
That is why I think that a skinning list, like the skoping list that we currently have, would be a great idea. For anybody who'd like new users to use any material that they themselves have made, they could express that wish on the list. For those who do not wish for their own content to be used, they can say so as well. That way, if somebody cannot explicity say that their skins are NOT for public use, their wishes will be respected while the users who will allow new creators to use their content don't have to leap in and say that it's ok for so-and-so to use such-and-such skin.
As with Cyber, I am a very fond advocate with 1) giving proper credits whenever anything from anybody else is used, and 2) getting permission from the creator to use such content. With the permissions list, new users (or current users) can at least fill requirement #2. Credit would be a nice thing to include, but if a user absolutely wanted credit for whenever their work is used, that could be a special condition, much like Tommyboy has for his meshes.
The way I see it, both sides have their fair arguments. Nobody is wrong in any regard, so I'm just trying to think of a compromise that is suitable to both parties. I love seeing content for this game being created (it's amazing what everybody has come up with), but I would also like to make sure that the appropriate amount of respect is paid to all content creators.
I used to have it spelled out in my readmes, but I don't really give a hoot if someone wants to kittbash my work, so long as I receive credit. I would ask that people let me know what they're doing (I'd actually like to see what was done, just for curiosity's sake) but it's not a requirement.
i'm gonna be the bad guy here and say no, i dont want my stuff kittbashed.
look i can see where people are coming from but after all the similar 6 crap i worked very hard to make my stuff look unique, and i do kinda feel annoyed in my experience of seeing someone be they old or new just swiping work and no credit its just soured me. I'm not a hypocrite i did kittbash at the start but it was knocked on the head very quickly by members way back in the ezboard days and was told to try and learn I knew nothing about ps but progressed at a slow rate and taught myself, bought magazines and read every tutorial under the sun. still do.
I have no problem if people use skins as templates if you're unsure how i've created a pattern or lined something up then by all means use my skin under a wiremap to see where i've placed thats fine but create you're own version i will happily help anyone if they have any questions about how i did something
this is going to urine a lot of people off and make me the new community bad guy, and will just give a lot mroe ammo to certain members but its where I stand and i will discuss it more if anyone wishes
You're not the bad guy at all (to the guy that calls himself the Ultimate Evil)
It's your own work, and we appreciate the work that you do.
I do think that we have reached a point though, where kitbashing is just inevitable.
now i'm all for the sharing and manipulation of IP, heck it's what I named my avatar after, but I can respect someone that doesn't wish to have their work altered....and released as original work.
Content is gonna get altered no matter what, once it's released online.
TUE, when starting this thread, I specifically asked for HONEST opinions. If you don't want your work kitbashed, that is 100% alright. That is why I am agreeing with Spydermann and suggesting that a specific "Permissions List and Rules" thread be created similar to the skoping thread. Let potential skinners or skopers know whose work is allowed to be kitbashed and whose isn't.
Unless I missed something, I don't think that you are being the "New Community Bad Guy", you're an artist asking that his wishes regarding his work be followed. There is nothing wrong with that.
If that's the route we're going I'll start up skinning permissions list later today. Comment below or pm me if you haven't stated your position yet.
TUE you're not the bad guy. It's your work, you should decide how you want it used or not used.
I say get the blokes permission and then give them credit when it's done...specially if the creators of the original work don't use base skins or such when they create their work (I HATE base skins...:P).
Since we're discussing this anyway... I'm hesitant to bring this up, since I've already been branded pure evil and all, but I think this applies just as much to 'skopes as it does to kitbashes: I may give a blanket permission for people to use my work however they want without having to track me down to ask permission (I don't want to restrict creativity because I'm on vacation or something), but I always reserve the right to rescind that permission in cases where I am uncomfortable how the work is used. If you are using my work on something, you are involving me in its creation, and there are certain things (Rule 34 being the most obvious) that I really want nothing to do with.
I know that seems like common sense, but remember, we're still dealing with the internet. It's tough enough for new members to understand that making the same request thread twice is bad form, or that asking for release twice in two days might be a bit aggravating. Grasping the subtle difference between "Giving permission" and "selling all rights away" is a bit subtle, and it should be made clear that there is a difference from the start of this, rather than letting it become an issue later.
I think a list is in proper order. Has been for a long while. Start it and let's move on.
Instead of worrying about restrictions/rules/guidelines/permissions, perhaps we should focus our efforts on creating and providing resources that enable new and prospective creators. Yes, we have some already. But, how can we make content creation more accessible than it already is? I think this is more important to the longevity of the community than re-iterating the rules...for the thousandth time.
There is not one person involved in this hobby that does not base themselves heavily on the work of others.
Whether it be me altering what Grenadier created,
Grenadier altering what Irrational created,
Irrational altering what Marvel created,
Marvel altering Norse mythology,
and so on...
I should not be able to benefit from the millions who came before me, but then have my own work be removed from the natural evolution.
As far as giving credit, that's just good manners.
You can write some simple guidelines to help people get along.
These short lists of what's allowed to use are not ok, they are incredibly stifling.
It would make more sense to have a list of who might start in with you if you touch their work, just to warn people of troublemakers.
Really trouble makers?. So if someone says no to kit bashing or skoping they are just trying to stir stuff
Why do I get the feeling you've been around a lot longer than your post count states.
Yes, I read more than I post, because if I post this happens.
Nothing's happening here it's an open discussion as requested no one was name calling or stirring it yet, in fact this has been extremely docile compared to how this was done in the past.
I just want a bit more info at how you see someone who doesn't like seeing work they put effort and time into being taken and claimed as someone's else's as a troublemaker. As for your other points of course people rely on what's come before them but they use it as a base to push themselves forward and develop they're own skills. No one has had a problem with that what was the killer about kit bashing was people swiping blatantly others work and then claiming it was completely original .
Everybody hates it if somebody missrepresents a piece of work by blatantly removing someone else's credit and inserting their own.
That's inherent in all societies and cultures, I already adressed this as being good manners.
That does not mean that it's not ok to base your work on whatever, or that there's a certain amount of work that transforms what I do into something uniquely untouchable.
Quote from: schick on November 15, 2013, 12:11:13 AM
Everybody hates it if somebody missrepresents a piece of work by blatantly removing someone else's credit and inserting their own.
This isn't that serious or nefarious. I think everyone can agree that if altered contented is released, include the original creators in the readme. It really is that simple.
i have only made a few skins, but consider me on the list for free use for anything. Same as my meshes.
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on November 14, 2013, 11:46:47 PM
Really trouble makers?. So if someone says no to kit bashing or skoping they are just trying to stir stuff
Why do I get the feeling you've been around a lot longer than your post count states.
I am so paranoid about this, but then I realized it doesnt really matter. If there are trolls, or troll baiters, they only win if i let them get me negative.
Quote from: schick on November 14, 2013, 01:39:32 AM
Restrictions are restricting.
The rule should be all material everywhere is encouraged for everyone to use.
I don't think anyone here is trying to restrict anyone, our discussion here, in my opinion, is meant to offer more resources to those who want to create content, whether for their own personal use, or for distribution among the community.
Tomato, I think you're being too hard on yourself here. Personally, I don't see you as "The Bad Guy" here. All you've done is request that others' work be respected,
nothing wrong with that.
I've tried my hand at skinning, I've tried my hand at skoping, I've tried my hand at FX'ing, I've even tried using GMax and Blender (And failed miserably). So while I'm not great at any of them, I've at least tried them so that I could have at least a slight understanding of the work that goes into them. I have the utmost respect for our content creators. And while I do agree with Schick that everything here is based on something else, I also believe that the creator of the end result should have a say as to what is or isn't done with their hard work.
I don't like the fact that TUE was singled out for asking that his work not be kitbashed, it's his work, it's his right. He shouldn't be persecuted for it.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on November 15, 2013, 12:17:57 AM
This isn't that serious or nefarious. I think everyone can agree that if altered contented is released, include the original creators in the readme. It really is that simple.
AA is absolutely right, it really is that simple. If permission is granted, make sure credit is given.
I'm assuming that this is something that the Mods/Admins/Titans have been discussing now, I'm curious as to their opinions on the matter. That being said, is it alright if someone (Pod, and yes I am volunteering you) starts a thread for permissions/rules?
Quote from: Cyber Burn on November 15, 2013, 01:16:43 AM
That being said, is it alright if someone (Pod, and yes I am volunteering you) starts a thread for permissions/rules?
And it's up.
If we need additional rules, explanations, or whatever just let me know. Hopefully a mod will sticky it for us.
I'll add more people as they come in. If anyone wants special notes or whatever added to their entry again just let me know.
Yeah, no. It's one thing to ask someone for permission, but it's quite another to insinuate that someone is a troublemaker for protecting their own work. The fact that we are even discussing this is far more than I have seen any other art community ever do. Insinuating that TUE is somehow morally abhorent for protecting work he created is just petty.
To turn it around, if we created the nifskope list backwards, making everything open except when people specifically ask NOT to be on the list, what happens in cases like Webrider's? Webrider, for those not aware, is a member who died before nifskope existed. True, by all accounts Webrider would be ok with it, but since he cannot make that decision, we choose to respect him and his work and not make that decision for him. If we make an exception for him, what happens in cases where we honestly don't have contact with the person anymore? They could be dead too for all we know.
Let's face it, TUE is the only person saying this RIGHT NOW, but I highly doubt he will be the only one. I think it's a safe bet that C6, with his history of immitators, will want nothing to do with this list. They have both given far more to this community than most, and I take serious issue with anyone trying to say that isn't enough.
Yeah I'm with Tomato on this. Attacking or vilifying anyone just because they chose not to give permission is not acceptable.
This isn't complicated, artists will make a choice and we will respect that choice.
Like the Nifskope list I consider anyone who does not directly contact us with their choice to be on the "Denied - Please contact" list. If you can't get in contact don't use their work.
For the record, please include me on the auto-allow list for permissions, skin or mesh, using any software you have to! No need to PM me for anything - just credit me in the Readme and it's all good. I welcome any new potential content creators!
I hate to impose (especially with Podmark doing the work), but what are the odds on a unified table, with like a checkbox column for skin/mesh permissions, "Required Credit in Readme", "PM before using pieces", Blender permissions, and other important variables? Not an insistence, of course - just a suggestion!
That way we can just point people out to a single megalist, in some sort of "Read before Posting/Releasing" thread up top. Thanks!
Quote from: vorelliwiseau on November 15, 2013, 03:25:50 AM
I hate to impose (especially with Podmark doing the work), but what are the odds on a unified table, with like a checkbox column for skin/mesh permissions, "Required Credit in Readme", "PM before using pieces", Blender permissions, and other important variables? Not an insistence, of course - just a suggestion!
It's a worthwhile suggestion. It's doable but I'd like more feedback before I attempt it. Do other people want this? Would it become more confusing if it was all in one table? Are there many people who don't care about/ want readme credits?
I think readme credits are a given, personally. I might be alone in this, but I actually do read the readmes. When I'm taking a piece from someone else's skope I always use the readmes to track down what pieces I'm actually using so I can give proper credit.
As for a table... hmm. I agree that one unified list might be better in the long run (we want to make this as simple as possible), but I'm hesitant to say that a table is the way to do it. There are only a few people who are going to be on multiple lists (and of those, I think I'd likely be the only one on both the kittbash and 'skope lists) so it might be better to have them in a single post, but still separate.
As someone who does almost nothing but porting over work from other systems to FF, I've always worried about things like that. Some of the things I do are fan meshes, others official game meshes. Where I can I 've tried to contact the fan creators and I always include a readme listing the original creators. For both those sources and for FF , it gets harder as time goes on with people vanishing from the scene, to contact them. I'm thankful that the mods have allowed my releases to go up. My main goal was not only to do meshes that I would enjoy seeing in game, but also to post them for others to give back a bit for the 1000's of meshes and skins done.
As for EA in Bearded's Civ5 export thread - they might/ might not care about porting over their work to FF, but they and Marvel might care a bit more about bring content into their new spiffy Civ5.
My only two other thoughts are these - One, I kind of missed the whole IPS thing a few years ago, but I remember hearing he tried reporting websites hosting Marvel/ DC skins to the comic companies, trying to get the sites shutdown out of spite. I never heard exactly what ticked him off but I think it was someone hexing/ kitbashing his work
Second, I remember in 2003 back when things were starting to roll and the main site was the Skindex. Then Marvel gave a cease and desist letter to the page host and he had to shut down. He was just a normal guy with a dayjob and a love for the the game and he couldn't risk a lawsuit. One of Marvel's many stupid moves towards their fans over the last few years, and they probably don't care about FF anymore, but as far as I know they never changed their stance on the subject. With an average of about 30 visitors to the main game forum, and a game with outdated graphics from so long ago, they've probably forgotten about FF.
I know that Murs stated in his skin thread that he didn't care about credits, which is his right, but personally, I think giving credit for what you are using should absolutely be given. When skinning, we give credit to the creators of the base skins we use, when skoping, we give credit to the creators of the mesh pieces we use. I don't believe that this should be any different.
I think that keeping the two lists as similar as possible in format is the better option. Any exceptions or limitations or whatever should just be listed next to the skinner's name, or at least posted somewhere in the opening post so that it is visible.
I'm pretty sure that all of my skins include some sort of "Read_Me" file, and I think that most other skinners include them as well. I think that in regards to kitbashing, I would suggest a couple of additional rules addressing the "Read_Me" text file:
1. Make sure that you do create a "Read_Me" file.
2. Make sure that your "Read_Me" file states the name(s) of which skin(s) were used (Kitbashed).
2. Make sure proper credit is given in your "Read_Me" file. For example, if you are kitbashing my skins, make sure you give me credit for what I did, but also make sure to give credit to the creator of the base skin(s) that I used.
Again, this is just a suggestion, but with most skinners using some sort of base skin (Admittedly, many use their own now), I think that credit should be given in that respect as well.
I really don't want to bog this down with additional rules, I just want to make sure credit is given where it's due.
Quote from: Randomdays on November 15, 2013, 04:22:09 AM
My only two other thoughts are these - One, I kind of missed the whole IPS thing a few years ago, but I remember hearing he tried reporting websites hosting Marvel/ DC skins to the comic companies, trying to get the sites shutdown out of spite. I never heard exactly what ticked him off but I think it was someone hexing/ kitbashing his work
Second, I remember in 2003 back when things were starting to roll and the main site was the Skindex. Then Marvel gave a cease and desist letter to the page host and he had to shut down. He was just a normal guy with a dayjob and a love for the the game and he couldn't risk a lawsuit. One of Marvel's many stupid moves towards their fans over the last few years, and they probably don't care about FF anymore, but as far as I know they never changed their stance on the subject. With an average of about 30 visitors to the main game forum, and a game with outdated graphics from so long ago, they've probably forgotten about FF.
The IPS thing... what kicked off that mess was a completely different issue. You can pm me or someone that was involved in it if you're curious about it, but we've got enough to debate without opening that can of worms here.
As for the Marvel thing... there was quite a bit of turmoil over Marvel sending out C&D to everyone, but the simple fact was that their efforts were more focused on sites making content for The Sims (The skindex being a VERY public example of that), since many other sites were selling their content and Marvel wasn't big on that. They never really went after FF as much, because we've stayed pretty strictly non-profit.
@Cyber- I used to actually include a notation in my readmes for what base skin I used, but I stopped doing that because I wasn't really using other bases anymore. I wouldn't say it should be done as a rule (especially since the base skins are all pretty distinctive) but I see where you're coming from on it.
Quote from: Tomato on November 15, 2013, 02:33:54 AMTo turn it around, if we created the nifskope list backwards, making everything open except when people specifically ask NOT to be on the list, what happens in cases like Webrider's? Webrider, for those not aware, is a member who died before nifskope existed. True, by all accounts Webrider would be ok with it, but since he cannot make that decision, we choose to respect him and his work and not make that decision for him. If we make an exception for him, what happens in cases where we honestly don't have contact with the person anymore? They could be dead too for all we know.
I could not agree with you more, Tomato.
Quote from: Tomato on November 15, 2013, 04:21:18 AM
I might be alone in this, but I actually do read the readmes.
You're not alone, buddy! I like checking out the ReadMes: the recipes are interesting to look into, and you learn a lot especially if you're looking for permissible sources. Plus sometimes there are other bonuses - I remember a certain ReadMe saying there was a DBZ Minecraft mod out for release.
And about the table thing, whatever floats you guys' boat - I'm just glad Podmark got my name on the permissions list! Thanks, Pod.
Quote from: spydermann93 on November 15, 2013, 05:38:18 AM
Quote from: Tomato on November 15, 2013, 02:33:54 AMTo turn it around, if we created the nifskope list backwards, making everything open except when people specifically ask NOT to be on the list, what happens in cases like Webrider's? Webrider, for those not aware, is a member who died before nifskope existed. True, by all accounts Webrider would be ok with it, but since he cannot make that decision, we choose to respect him and his work and not make that decision for him. If we make an exception for him, what happens in cases where we honestly don't have contact with the person anymore? They could be dead too for all we know.
I could not agree with you more, Tomato.
There are, I believe, two skinners that I know of that have passed away, one is Paradox, and the other was Flash_22798.
Paradox's skins should be off-limits right off the bat. No
if''s
and's or
but's As for Flash, when he gave me all of his back-up disks, he told me to do with them as I saw fit. This is something that I have really been thinking about the last few days, and to be honest, I really haven't decided if this is where I want to go yet, so for now, at least,
I am asking that his skins be made off-limit until further notice.
Quote from: Podmark on November 15, 2013, 02:18:38 AM
- Please contact anyone not listed below before using their content. I will add their decision to this list.
In a situation like this, I believe that who ever contacts the skinner that they are asking permission from, should find out if permission is being given on a general basis, or on a skin by skin circumstance.
Cyber Burn, Matrix was another skinner who passed away. I believe we should also respect his body of work by not kit bashing.
In regards to my own meager attempts from the past, by all means, do whatever you would like to them.
Quote from: vorelliwiseau on November 15, 2013, 07:34:57 AM
And about the table thing, whatever floats you guys' boat - I'm just glad Podmark got my name on the permissions list! Thanks, Pod.
No problem.
Quote from: Cyber Burn on November 15, 2013, 02:27:11 PM
Quote from: Podmark on November 15, 2013, 02:18:38 AM
- Please contact anyone not listed below before using their content. I will add their decision to this list.
In a situation like this, I believe that who ever contacts the skinner that they are asking permission from, should find out if permission is being given on a general basis, or on a skin by skin circumstance.
When this does occur it's best if the original artist contacts me or one of our mods directly or posts directly on the forum. I will be attempting verify any claims that a skinner has given permission before I add them to the list. Same as the Nifskope list.
I've added Paradox, Matrix, and Flash. I haven't given Flash the same notation because Cyber Burn is acting as the executor of his skinning estate.
My two cents
- Personally, if someone says no I see that as a request that I'll honor that just because why not? I don't want someone to be upset over something like game modding so it's no skin off my back to remove the file.
On the topic however I see it like this:
- Whose ownership is stated here? Right out the gate this is a game that's intended to be customized with files and characters that are intended to be customized. Legally, Irrational owns these files and has given express permission for any of us to kitbash and share their initial work. Anything we do roots in that engine and thus is a kitbash of Irrationals work and again permissible, and again the whole point of the game is to do modify and share files. Personally I hold nothing I do here as my own work regardless of how much or little I put into the file and hope anyone does whatever they want with it.
- Also in the terms of ownership, much of what we do is based on already copyrighted characters from fiction. Do I really have the right to claim Spider-man as my property and tell you what to do with art based on him? I say this and I won't go into the specifics, but I was threatened with a lawsuit over using a file that someone else based on a Marvel character. By that I mean it was a Marvel character exactly, and as well the skin was retrofitted from scanned artwork from a comic book to begin with. I accepted without question and deleted the file. But what grabbed me was the lawsuit threat. Say in some world this person had taken me to court, right? The truth is they would not only lose because they don't own the property in question (and this is outside of what I said above about Irrational), they would enter themselves into a copyright infringement charge. That sounds really silly to read, but I've seen this happen in real life whereas an individual I knew made Star Wars costumes, sold them online, then tried to sue his partner for copyright infringement. Instead he ended up sued by Lucas and now works to pay his company off the debt to date. Just saying.
- If you or I share a file than we automatically opened the door for it to be used freely without our consent and regardless of. That motive is implied by the first action. If I leave money out in the park am I really entitled to later scold anyone who would pick up the money as use it they see fit?
- Lastly, whats " allowing ". I see his term batted around online a lot. I'm fairly certain we aren't a legal system in real life, just in fact a bunch of gamers. I just think it's weird. I see discussions all the time online about what people are going to allow in this world, or more in specific countries, states, provinces, ect. regardless of the users specific origins. I'm pretty sure any of us lacks the power to allow or not allow anything anyone else does. I've decided I'll allow you to ride a bicycle anywhere you wish as long a it's not a red colored bike. See how silly that sounds?
My end is personally I won't kitbash if I am specifically asked not to do it, but I won't say I see any legally binding end to that and would only be doing so and have just to be nice.
In all honesty, I don't think that anyone has any intention of bringing legalities into this discussion. I think it has always been about showing respect for the hard work that our content creators have done. For example, I wouldn't kittbash a C6 skin, not because I'm afraid of him throwing a lawsuit in my direction, but rather, because I don't want to urine him off and push him away from the community.
For me, starting this thread was always about making more resources available to potential content creators. I mean, how many new skopers create new skopes, but then don't preview them because they don't have the resources to provide skins for them? How many potential skinners don't preview their first skins because they used a piece from another skinner's work? By making kittbashing permissible, admittedly, with rules, how many new members would now try to become new content creators?
This is a 10 year old game, with a 10 year old community. Personally, I would love to see it last another 10 years, so I'll do my best to encourage and respect all content creators, both old and new.
I still consider myself a rookie Skoper but became fairly worried about my skinning efforts since I didn't want to upset anyone by modifying their hard work. I finally just opted for making rather simple place holder skins until a skinner wanted to tackle making a much more detailed version.
I'm very happy to see that the FR community is still alive and growing after all this time. :)
- CQ
Cyber Burn is 100% correct. The reason we don't kittbash/skope Beyonder's Doctor Octopus and Vulture meshes is NOT because Beyonder has any legal right to tell anyone what do do with a mesh that's based on a Marvel Comics copyrighted character: He does not. We don't kittbash those meshes because Beyonder asked us not to. Beyonder is a mesher who put time, effort, and quality into everything he did, and we value his contributions to the community. As such, when he requested we not alter work he put time and effort into, we respected that choice.
That was always the thing about kittbashing with me: I didn't give a dalek's tentacle about someone coming behind me and altering my skins. But I have frequently slammed people for kittbashing work from those creators I respected without bothering to ask for permission or give credit. THAT was always the central point for me: If a creator has put time and effort into something, that effort will be respected.
We're not saying "this is the law, for serious!" either. This is the internet, some yahoo can easily make a website with kittbashed skins of whatever he feels like on his/her own website and we can't stop them. But in this community we have always respected the wishes of those who took the time to give us amazing work for free, and I don't see that ever changing.
I understand that, hence why I said I don't do it myself for the same reasons and/or remove files when prompted. Hence as well why I title anything I put out crediting the original author and include any files they had in the first place.I was just dropping some things I think about it, added as I said without giving details in order to not kick the dog further, was threatened with such a legal scenario which I found...silly for multiple reasons. Or to be short of it I don't believe any of " you " are saying it's a matter of legality, nor did I say it. But some people have said as such and personally I think and hope they understand the truth of such claims of copyright, you know? Sorry if I didn't word it right that I understood and in fact agreed with the idea that the original artists wishes should be respected and was adding another bit to that regarding copyright claims, and if I worded things to insinuate anyone other than the specific cases and/or those in this thread, which was not the message I was sending nor my intent. Again, " you " are not saying it's about legality and the law, and I'm not saying you are. I'm speaking directly to those who have done just that.
Now I'm not a lawyer but I was under the understanding that while the content wasn't ours we did own the work. So if I make a skin of Wolverine I can't claim any ownership of the character but I could claim ownership of the artwork depicting him. Again I could be wrong but I do believe the artist does carry some rights in that respect.
I don't know the legality of the issues, and in all honesty, I don't know if it's where we should take this discussion. For me, this has always been about respecting our content creators, while still making available more resources for content creation.
That said, I'm concerned that if we start discussing legal issues, this conversation will not stay on subject. I'm not a lawyer, I don't know the laws, and I don't feel comfortable about going in this direction.
K-dokey Cyber Burn and sorry for taking it there then. I only did as such since my personal encounter with friction regarding kit bashing entailed as such so I thought it was relevant to mention. and your conversation here was actually already about the same subject when I entered, though I'm not sure right now whether your aware of that then. Either way a discussion for another time and place.
I didn't mean to squash a topic, but if this is something that people think needs to be discussed, then I would prefer it to be in a separate thread. Personally, I would rather not mix the discussion about respecting others work with the legal aspects of ownership. I know I asked for an honest and open discussion, but I really think these subjects should be kept separate.
However, if everyone else feels that this is where this discussion should go, then I won't object.
Wow,I've missed a LOT :blink:
Sorry folks but I'm going to have to say no to kitbashing,sorry.The reason I have this stance on the subject is this,I was one of those that kitbashed the crap out of Courtnall's creations when I began skinning because I was terrible at doing hair and very often "borrowed" his hairstyles from various skins.When Court started his no kitbash rule I started doing everything on my own (except my use of base skins which are still C6's)and it has really made me a better skinner because I didn't take the easy way out and learned to do more myself which I believe is what C6 wanted when he made the rule,more variety.At the same time though I will make exceptions in certain situations,just PM me and I'll let ya know.A big thank you to Cyber Burn and Podmark for the effort they've put into this.
Bloodshadow, I fully respect your decision here and I agree with your reasoning behind it. However, as you yourself pointed out, you started out kittbashing other skins. As did I, and as did most of the skinners here.
I didn't put my name on this list so that say, Podmark could kittbash my work. He's fully capable of doing his own stuff, and if he did kittbash mine I'd probably pm him about it. Similarly, if someone is clearly capable of doing their own skins but continues to because they can't be bothered to put the work in, I'd probably pm them about it as well. I put my name on this list so that if someone wants to take the time and learn, they don't have to be afraid of me jumping down their neck for using Ultraman's cape on a skin until they are ready to skin their own.
I agree completely Tomato and thanks for the input,I have no problem with people using whatever they want of my skins but at the same time I just wanted others to have the same encouragement to learn that I got from Courtnall and am very grateful for.You do make a good point though and I will change my stance and allow any of my stuff to be used,I just want everyone to have fun and keep this community going another decade or so.
Honestly man, the only reason I said anything is because I had those concerns myself and responding to your post gave me an opportunity to address them publicly. While I'm all for kittbashing as a learning tool for new members, it is NOT something I feel like experienced skinners should depend on, any more than base skins are: I learned so much about the process of skinning just making my original base skin, and that thing was a blurry mess.
Quote from: Tomato on January 02, 2014, 03:45:51 AM
I didn't put my name on this list so that say, Podmark could kittbash my work.
Well crud, and here I thought I was done my latest skin. :P
I feel the same way guys, but it doesn't bother me if there's a decent reason.
That's a good point, Tomato, about expanding one's skills. Its very much analogous to the advice given to artists to not base their work on other artists but observe life through their own eyes.
However, kitbashing was an extremely useful trick for me as a skinner, but not primarily a skinner.
When I made my first task list for the Strangers, the most daunting part was looking at all the skins I'd have to make. Becoming an experienced kit-basher helped a lot, and I wouldn't have got my mods made without it.
Later on I had help, of course: Forcer doing alternate skins for the Strangers, bearded's help with meshes and skins and culminating in a titanic team-up with the Awesome Artistic Afghan Ant!
But at the beginning I was a nobody with a fistful of characters no-one had heard of, and limited time, and every short-cut helped.
Quote from: Tomato on January 02, 2014, 05:10:12 AM
Honestly man, the only reason I said anything is because I had those concerns myself and responding to your post gave me an opportunity to address them publicly. While I'm all for kittbashing as a learning tool for new members, it is NOT something I feel like experienced skinners should depend on, any more than base skins are: I learned so much about the process of skinning just making my original base skin, and that thing was a blurry mess.
Base skins?!?!?! What the 'ell is a base skin?!?!?!?! :P
Kitbashing is NOT allowed without premissions. Specially so long you or i ask