DC is becoming hard core.
http://www.toplessrobot.com/2012/05/oh_dc_is_animating_dark_knight_returns.php
I wonder if they are going to keep it close to the book or edit some parts?
I read that they are going to make DKR into 2 animated movies. Some stuff will probably be cut but with 2 movies most of the book should get translated to animation.
Given my dislike for DKR (as well as most of Frank Miller's "GD Batman" work) I don't care about this.
Quote from: Tomato on May 24, 2012, 02:03:26 PM
Given my dislike for DKR (as well as most of Frank Miller's "GD Batman" work) I don't care about this.
Took the words out of my mouth
OMG, I was coming in to make a joke like "I doubt anyone on this forum cares" given the golden/silver aged sensibilities most members have, I am surprised to see I nailed it on the head. Personally I lean on the side of Max, Image, Vertigo, Darkhorse, etc... so you dont see me talking about comics much on this forum.
I think DKR is a very important work of art and DC has done an amazing job with animated features. And if it is bad? I'll forget about it very quickly.
Quote from: lugaru on May 24, 2012, 06:26:24 PM
OMG, I was coming in to make a joke like "I doubt anyone on this forum cares" given the golden/silver aged sensibilities most members have, I am surprised to see I nailed it on the head. Personally I lean on the side of Max, Image, Vertigo, Darkhorse, etc... so you dont see me talking about comics much on this forum.
I think it's unfortunate that you don't talk about comics here because it probably would have kept the Indy/Darkhorse thread afloat and enlightened some eyes. *shruggies*
Except... I really don't. I like a chunk of modern DC and Marvel about as much as I live many silver age stories, and my leaning tends to be more bronze age stories. I just detest Frank Miller's take on Batman in general.
Quote from: Tomato on May 25, 2012, 04:39:02 AM
I just detest Frank Miller's take on Batman in general.
I will admit that Frank Miller is a strange case. I have a soft spot for DKR because I was fairly young when I read it and honestly I've always had a taste for transgressive art. My alltime favorite comics (superhero) include DKR, Watchmen, Weapon X, Xstatix, New Xmen, Punisher Max... basically when people use superheroes to explore bigger and crazier concepts.
That said Frank Miller has gone off a cliff. The short version is "I used to think he was warning us about fascism, now I think he might have been praising it". I've always personally found superheroes to be an inherently right wing concept, since they are mixed in with vigilantism and "old fashioned american values". Watchmen is almost entirely about this... the concept that if superheroes existed they would have killed counter culture. Rorschach is at the books core and he is a paranoid right wing conspiracy nut who is right twice per day like any other broken clock.
It has been a while since I've enjoyed any new work of his (including the abominable Spirit movie) and while I still respect his visual style (I loved some pages of Holy Terror) I do think we have lost him as a modern creator. Now we live more in a Grant Morrison age. Instead of being afraid of human nature (dark lawless cities filled with gangs) he is obsessed with it's potential (even his villains tend to be eccentric geniuses).
Quote from: Previsionary on May 24, 2012, 06:45:38 PM
I think it's unfortunate that you don't talk about comics here because it probably would have kept the Indy/Darkhorse thread afloat and enlightened some eyes. *shruggies*
I've also been a bad, bad comic reader. All I'm reading on a monthly basis is Punisher Max, Walkign Dead, Chew and whatever random single issue I pick up or whatever Fred Van Lente is writing.
Actually, my biggest issue with his Batman isn't that he's trying to ground the character or what have you... those aspects I'm almost ok with. I just really dislike his particular interpretation of the Batman character and particularly the character's morality. The reason he became Batman in the first place is because he witnessed the violent, unnecessary deaths of his parents and swore that what happened to him would happen to no other innocent child. So while I can accept that he might be a tad insane (he dresses up like a bat and dangles criminals off of rooftops. Crazy is within the realm of possibility) I don't see him turning around and waging war on crime the way Frank Miller depicts him in DKR.
The other thing I really dislike from him is this insane notion that Batman and Superman could ever possibly like each other. Yes, the two have VERY different views on how the world works and how to approach any particular situation, but if anything that's WHY they work well together. The world isn't black and white, and both Bruce and Clark are smart enough to know that.
Since DC has been doing so well with it's animated movies, I'll be willing to check this one out too.
Very low res trailer:
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/TheAlexLynch/news/?a=62348
Quote from: Tomato on May 24, 2012, 02:03:26 PM
Given my dislike for DKR (as well as most of Frank Miller's "GD Batman" work) I don't care about this.
I'll also agree with that . I love the DC animated stuff but their choices are getting less interesting for me. I actually have not bought the last two because of the source meterial.
I'm curious to see if they'll try to work some "Dark Knight Strikes Again" adaptations into the 2nd part.
I love DKR but I think DKSA might be the single worst Batman comic book ever produced. I don't see how they'll just let Bruce chop Dick Grayson apart and throw him into a volcano.
Still... it'll be interesting to see how they decide to end the movies.
Quote from: oldmanwinters on July 23, 2012, 01:18:25 AM
I'm curious to see if they'll try to work some "Dark Knight Strikes Again" adaptations into the 2nd part.
I love DKR but I think DKSA might be the single worst Batman comic book ever produced. I don't see how they'll just let Bruce chop Dick Grayson apart and throw him into a volcano.
Still... it'll be interesting to see how they decide to end the movies.
I've re-read DKSA and in hindsight it has some great moments. Unfortunately those are few and far in between. ^_^
That said, divorce the "modern Miller" from the work, have some writers go at it and adapt it... and there is a lot of good stuff in DKSA. Everything else gets changed and adapted, in the case of DKSA it might actually be a good thing.
Miller is crazy. End of opinion.
DKSA does indeed have some neat moments in it. Adapting the book into an enjoyable movie would be pure torture. You would be required to cut away SO much material & write SO much new material that you would almost be better off coming up with something original.
HD trailer
http://www.ign.com/videos/2012/08/02/the-dark-knight-returns-blu-ray-trailer
There's something about his voice, I'm not feeling. I think it's too light.
Wow, I'm really excited by that trailer!
Looks like they might be saving The Joker subplot for Part 2? Hopefully.
I'm sold. :thumbup:
Got an advance copy and it stays true to the book, but for some reason, I like it better than the book. The movie covers the first 2 issues of the series so part 2 will cover issues 3 & 4. I'm hoping that this will become a hit so they will make the second book, just so I can see plastic man and some of the other JLers.
I'm a fan of DC's animated movies, but I'll pass this one. Alway found Miller's Batman a little too fascist to my political tastes and I couldn't agree more with Tomato about Batman's characterization and world view.
Quote from: John Jr. on September 23, 2012, 09:11:09 PM
I'm a fan of DC's animated movies, but I'll pass this one. Alway found Miller's Batman a little too fascist to my political tastes and I couldn't agree more with Tomato about Batman's characterization and world view.
Fascist how? I didn't see any of that come off in the film. He was more of a Gotham needs me...it will always need me type personality
In the original comic ("Dark Knight Returns"), Batman follows the classic "strong man who will create order through force" style. He is against the civil rights ("You have rights, too many rights..." and such) and organizes a para military force to challenge the "status quo" and create a new order, above the law.
I always saw Batman as a driven man, who tries protect people from the violence that created him, not a fascist leader or an insane fighter, so I don't like Miller's take.
While I won't use quite as strong a term as fascism to describe DKR, I do agree with John fundamentally here: I just don't like Frank Miller's take on the character or the universe. I hate his take on the relationship between batman and superman (Just because two people have opposing political views does NOT mean they can't be friends), I hate the general attitude of his version of Batman, this lunatic who thinks of Gotham as a war zone and who eats the flesh of rats (in other books, admittedly, but that level of insanity is present here), and above all, I just hate his general writing style.
There are several writers I've bashed before (I had a mad hatred of Grant Morrison for awhile, though he's since grown on me) but even then, it's usually one story or one set of stories... most of the time there's at least one decent book in there. The best I can say about any of miller's stuff is that year one is ok. It had some good stuff (mobsters, most of the stuff with Gordon, etc.) but it also had Catwoman the $2 hooker, which doesn't mesh with any other interpretation of the character.
But then, I never really cared for sin city either, and every book he's ever written seems to be based on his work there, so that really doesn't surprise me.
Sure, Miller's work has really gone of the deepend The Dark Knight Strikes Again, but I really think you are doing a disservice to yourself by disregarding his earlier, massive body of work.
His work on Daredevil was the true beginning of grim n gritty superheroes for adults.
300 is a masterpiece.
Ronin is one of the greatest cyberpunk fictions around. Incredibly influential in both art and narrative for creators like Geoff Darrow, Brandon Graham and Paul Pope.
Give me Liberty is an Post-apocalyptic story that really explores the other side of themes of facism, that you find in DKR.
Yes, there was a time when he was rational.
Not only was his work great, but he was pretty influential in getting manga over the pacific ocean. That's one feat that he hasn't gotten much credit for.
Oh, and Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot is just a blast.
Quote from: Tomato on September 24, 2012, 06:05:39 AM
I hate his take on the relationship between batman and superman (Just because two people have opposing political views does NOT mean they can't be friends)
But given all the other points people are making about Miller's Batman, that part actually makes sense. Can you see Clark Kent really relating to a nutjob like that?
The continuity where Superman and Batman can be friends is where Batman is more hero than vigilante, where the level of violence Batman uses is tempered and proportionate. That Batman is such a control-freak that there's not much danger he'll go over the edge and stay there. Even when they are friends, they have disagreements about methods.
Quote from: BlueBard on September 24, 2012, 02:01:27 PM
Quote from: Tomato on September 24, 2012, 06:05:39 AM
I hate his take on the relationship between batman and superman (Just because two people have opposing political views does NOT mean they can't be friends)
But given all the other points people are making about Miller's Batman, that part actually makes sense. Can you see Clark Kent really relating to a nutjob like that?
The continuity where Superman and Batman can be friends is where Batman is more hero than vigilante, where the level of violence Batman uses is tempered and proportionate. That Batman is such a control-freak that there's not much danger he'll go over the edge and stay there. Even when they are friends, they have disagreements about methods.
But that's the thing about Miller: according to him Batman is ALWAYS the crazy, rat-eating nutjob he is in DKR, and Superman is ALWAYS this godlike idealist who is so stupid he can't see that luthor is the secret president of the USA (or whatever that plot twist was, it's been awhile for me). Miller writes both characters as caricatures rather then as well rounded, human characters, PARTICULARLY with regards to their dealings with each other, and it sets my teeth on edge.
The thing is, having them disagree on methods and idealogies don't bother me: that conflict can and has been written well in the past, and provides depth to their friendship/association/whatever you want to call what they have. The problem with regards to miller is that batman, despite being batshit crazy in his books, is
always right, and superman is
always an idiot, and they absolutely hate one another pretty much all the time. In DKR, DKSA,
AND All-star Batman and Robin, entire pages of Batman's internal monologue will be devoted to how "Clark would do it this way, and he's an idiot, blah blah blah I'm awesome."
Quote from: detourne_me on September 24, 2012, 09:48:49 AM
Sure, Miller's work has really gone of the deepend The Dark Knight Strikes Again, but I really think you are doing a disservice to yourself by disregarding his earlier, massive body of work.
His work on Daredevil was the true beginning of grim n gritty superheroes for adults.
300 is a masterpiece.
Ronin is one of the greatest cyberpunk fictions around. Incredibly influential in both art and narrative for creators like Geoff Darrow, Brandon Graham and Paul Pope.
Give me Liberty is an Post-apocalyptic story that really explores the other side of themes of facism, that you find in DKR.
Yes, there was a time when he was rational.
Not only was his work great, but he was pretty influential in getting manga over the pacific ocean. That's one feat that he hasn't gotten much credit for.
Oh, and Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot is just a blast.
From what I understand, his work went off the deep end with Sin City... I've frequently heard from other fans that he started writing that and just never actually stopped. Dark Knight Strikes again was just the first clear evidence of that process.
Regardless though, I'm not going to comment on those books because I haven't read them, and I don't ever intend to. I'm sorry, but after reading All Star Batman, I am so disgusted by that man both as a writer and as a human being (In millersville, every single female character wants nothing more than to sleep with batman!) I cannot stomach anything else from him.
Quote from: Tomato on September 24, 2012, 03:42:43 PM
Regardless though, I'm not going to comment on those books because I haven't read them, and I don't ever intend to. I'm sorry, but after reading All Star Batman, I am so disgusted by that man both as a writer and as a human being (In millersville, every single female character wants nothing more than to sleep with batman!) I cannot stomach anything else from him.
I understand your point of view, for sure. Even though Martha Washington from Give Me Liberty is one of the most interesting female protagonists in the past 30 years (she's got this tragic upbringing of being put through all these sausage-making machines of oppression - at ever expanding levels throughout the books - only to escape due to her talent and integrity) that series still has it's fair share of Miller S&M feminazis.
aaaaaaaand going back on topic.AlthoughI'm excited for Peter Weller's take on Batman's growl, apparently he sounds just indifferent about the whole thing.... like as listless as Nic Cage's voicework in astroboy.
An oldie but goodie on Frank Miller and Occupy Wallstreet.
Spoiler
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vSF3dgEUst8/TsO3IcGxz9I/AAAAAAAACCY/1ILvMhWIm9A/s1600/burning_itch_11162011_pace_burningmonster.jpg
I agree with DM about how we need to get back on topic, so I'll try be short:
- I really liked Miller's Daredevil and Batman Year One (but I agree 100% with Tomato about Miller's take on Catwoman).
-Again I agree 100% with Tomato about Miller's take on the Superman/Batman characterization.
And talking about Miller and movies...
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/09/24/what-would-be-your-reaction-to-frank-millers-justice-league/
No matter how you feel about Miller, at least give this movie a fair shot. I'm not saying go out and buy it, but rent it or wait for it to go on Netflix.
Quote from: John Jr. on September 24, 2012, 10:38:12 PM
I agree with DM about how we need to get back on topic, so I'll try be short:
- I really liked Miller's Daredevil and Batman Year One (but I agree 100% with Tomato about Miller's take on Catwoman).
-Again I agree 100% with Tomato about Miller's take on the Superman/Batman characterization.
And talking about Miller and movies...
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/09/24/what-would-be-your-reaction-to-frank-millers-justice-league/
That was a fascinating and incredibly depressing story. Seriously? Freaking suits. Pick up some comic books, invest in the characters, and figure it out. It isn't rocket science. And yes, for the love of all that is good and holy, look at Marvel.
As for the matter at hand, though....I can CERTAINLY understand the distaste that Miller has left in y'all's mouths. I feel pretty much the same way...and I think it says a lot that I thought
Dark Knight Returns was about the height of comics-as-literature when I discovered it at around 18 or so. The tale resonates with that angry teenage demographic, and there's no doubt. It's certainly a skewed take on Batman, and I agree, one of the problems with Miller is that his Batman is ALWAYS that Batman, etc. Still, I do have a soft spot for
DKR. It's a pretty good book, taken as an elseworlds tale. It isn't Batman, it isn't Superman, but just a neat pretend story. I enjoy it that way...though, I do have to say, I don't think that the Batman portrayal in that book, (and let's be specific here, because there are miles and miles of differences between
DKR I and
DKR II and All-Star Batman) is really that far off base.
It's got its weaknesses, especially when viewed against the backdrop of Miller's later body of work, but by itself, its' a darn good Batman story. At least, I've always found it so. Bruce is a good man, and some of that is probably lost in Miller's 'dirty world' version, but he's also a man with incredible will. When he brings Gotham back from the brink of annihilation, literally riding in on a horse to save the day...I don't know, that's always just worked for me.
Anyway, I'm curious about this movie version, as it is likely the only way my wife will ever experience this incredibly seminal comic story, and I'd like her to have a better understanding of the mythos at play in our world, comics-speaking.
Clark's portrayal is less appealing, I'll happily grant that. I much prefer the idea put forward in Cooke's
New Frontier, that Bruce and Clark staged their fight so no-one would bother to send Supes after him. Batman and Superman are friends, they are and they should be, and 'Mato expressed that concept well, so I won't try to gild the lily.
So...did anyone actually see the movie besides me? I really enjoyed it as it was more faithful than most of these to the source material. I find that some of these animated films make needless changes and cuts to the source and here it was mainly retained. Weller as Batman was great and I really loved the movie and animation as it was fairly close to Miller's original art.
Though I do agree about the Superman/Batman dynamic, I think that their approaches to justice are different and though it may start out as a grudging respect it would become friendship/allies over time.
That being said, you can appreciate this book, and movie, as an alternate take on the relationship dynamic. After all this is Miller's vision, not DC canon.
I don't know how I feel about Frank Miller. I'm a fan of Sin City, though I am guilty of being a movie first, comics later fellow. I feel that within his own rules, world and boundaries he actually produces good work. I feel this, because I don't need to feel like I have to trust him. Now if he is stepping into the Justice League - its a world created by others, and others have set the rules. I don't think Miller is very good at staying within those rules. I don't want to have to trust him.
I caught this the other day, and I really really enjoyed it. I didn't actually feel Batman or the entire plot was particularly uncharacteristic - at least, less so than I expected. But I'll leave it to others to judge properly.
Don't avoid it just because it has Miller's name attached. It was a good watch.
Glad it's getting good reviews, I was planning on picking it up today. :thumbup:
Definitely a good watch, Peter Weller did a good job as Batman, can't wait for part 2.
I saw it and loved it. I admit I've never read the comic though. It was more violent than I was expecting but overall a good story and good animation, Gotham really looked gloomy and depressing (even more than usual) and the main characters looked tired and world-weary.
I personally am looking forward to part 2.
Part 2 will be out on January 29th
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/Warner_Brothers/Batman_The_Dark_Knight_Returns_-_Part_Two_Blu-ray_Announced/10473
Has anyone seen Part 2 yet?