Freedom Reborn

If this topic is taboo, feel free to delete it. Recently there have been two very interesting pieces on race in comics, specifically minority heroes in DC. The first one was called The Racial Politics of Regressive Storytelling. (http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/05/06/the-racial-politics-of-regressive-storytelling/). The second one comes from Bleeding Cool, which is basically a list of the minority characters in DC and what happened to them.

List can be found here. (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/05/15/the-new-apartheid-of-dc-comics-by-ryan-mullenix/)

I don't know what to make of all this. It's very easy to play the DC is racist card or whatever. But I think the first article pretty much hit the nail when it stated that what you have is a bunch of writers resetting things to early silver age when minority characters just didn't exist or if they did they were crude caricatures. Plus I think something like this is more obvious in DC which has an abundance of legacy heroes. So it's more obvious to the casual reader. Anywho I mostly put this up cause I wanted others thoughts.

the "racial politics" link was once a thread here (and sparked a conversation), but it was erased for being too political, so this thread may meet the same demise, unfortunately. I'll just repeat the base of my comment from the other thread and say that DC forced itself into a Catch 22 situation. They won't invest in new characters because fans, for the most part, won't give them an initial shot, but fans also get upset when "legacy" characters are replaced w/ minorities (and make their feelings well known and make the changes seem like a charity case to be more PC). The only way DC seems to deal with it is by introducing their racial characters in team books until they gather enough interest to lead a solo book or mini... even then, those characters usually end up standing around and not contributing much (Static).

There's a problem with teen books as well. Fans want their team books to be composed of existing characters. Occasionally you'll get an all-new team with all new characters (Young Avengers) but thats rare.

I think the best way to launch new characters is to first introduce them in an existing series (Daken) or a mini devoted to them (like Gravity) and then roll them into a team book - but the key is that the writer needs to want to use them. Getting new characters to last long term is ridiculously hard. For example - Runaways. The original series was a critical success and fan-favorite but right now the book is limbo because the sales aren't high enough.

I think DC in particular screwed up by killing off perfectly good heroes just to introduce new heroes of a different race to have some diversity, rather than making completely new heroes of different races or replacing heroes who stunk in the first place or had just been plain forgotten about. I definitely think comics need more racial diversity (ESPECIALLY DC), but not at the expense of perfectly good existing characters. (Here's an idea; what if at the end of Blackest Night, Hawkman and Hawkwoman or Hawkgirl or whatever she's called now had been resurrected as Egyptians? Wouldn't have messed them up too much if their memories were still intact)

To me legacy heroes don't work when:

a. They don't have any real connection to the original character (or the connection is weak; ie, a distant relative who has never even appeared or been mentioned before).
b. The original character is done away with to be replaced with the new one when the original character is still viable - this includes disabling the original hero or doing something else to take them out of the superhero game and making them a mentor to the new one, not just killing the character off.
c. Are a completely brand new character, rather than an existing one stepping into the old hero's place.

The only replacement hero I've ever felt worked in the case of c. is Kyle Rayner.

And unless you count Bucky as Captain America (I don't), I don't care for most of Marvel's current crop of legacy heroes. Daken, Skaar and the new She-Hulk all stink.

*edit* Looking at the list Ajax provided a link to, a lot of those heroes did get the shaft, but is anyone really all that upset over the deaths of some of the lamer ones, like Vibe? Vibe was a stereotype as well as being lame!

GM. Look at the Young Avengers. I'd say that that is a group of legacy characters that occupy all groups you've suggested. They have all become successful characters, and without much opposition from fans.

Quote from: detourne_me on May 16, 2010, 07:17:32 AM
GM. Look at the Young Avengers. I'd say that that is a group of legacy characters that occupy all groups you've suggested. They have all become successful characters, and without much opposition from fans.

I also consider them legacy heroes done right... they are all very different than the character they embody. Hulkling is not a "hulk", he is a Kree/Srkull hybrid who looks a bit like the hulk.

And yeah, just like last the this was posted, before it was deleted, there are a lot of points to be made beyond race. Personally I like my comics forward moving, I like change and I'm shocked to say some comics fans are starting to be that way too. A lot of people said "I'm cool with Bucky staying Captain America and Dick staying Batman".

Another intersting point is that kids dont care. For them John Stewart is the green lantern and they love him.

Lastly I want to see more diverse writers in comics.

Quote from: detourne_me on May 16, 2010, 07:17:32 AM
GM. Look at the Young Avengers. I'd say that that is a group of legacy characters that occupy all groups you've suggested. They have all become successful characters, and without much opposition from fans.

I should probably have mentioned them. I don't read the Young Avengers comics, but they seem to be handled how legacy heroes should be done. The only character I have any problem with would probably be Patriot, but that's only because I think The Truth was a story that should never have been made an official part of the Marvel Universe, hence his grandfather Isaiah Bradley shouldn't exist. (I understand why Marvel did that story, and its based on what happened at Tuskegee in the real world, but it sort of taints Captain America)

I think these articles about the "white washing" of the DCU are missing the point : that DC puts way too much stock in their Silver Age characters. They could really care less about they're Golden Age characters (Unless it's one of the Big 3, Bats, Wondy, and Supes) that's obvious by all their retcons and reboots. They constantly want to rehash their glory days, but that costs them their relevance. So Ryan Choi didn't die because he was asian, he just wasn't Ray Palmer. I mean it's comics, he'll probably be back in two years. Short and sweet : it's a non-issue, but they'll probably do a few more articles about this because it pushes buttons.

Quote from: President Raygun on May 16, 2010, 07:57:55 AM
Short and sweet : it's a non-issue, but they'll probably do a few more articles about this because it pushes buttons.

Well a lot of the talk has been about the unecesary return to the silver age but the race component is kind of pointing out that we have come a long way and there is no need to go back. Going back in time will not only get rid of the cool new ethnic heroes but also the conflicted heroes (staple of the 80's to 2000's) and complex heroes (at some point backstories got longer). So yeah, they are pushing buttons but it makes for context besides conflict.

In other words if every company did this we would lose a lot of ethnic heroes but also a lot of mercenaries, ex-villains, female heroes... the stuff that has been happening recently. But I doubt it... still I am the ONE person sad to see the badguys no longer in charge of Marvel. It made for an interesting world and created comics like The Initiative, Dark Avengers and New Avengers which where really cool with a badguy majority and pockets of heroic resistance.

Also I'm bugged by the "nostalgic, but hardcore" attitude. I dont want to see characters from the 60's brought back in their original costumes just to watch them rip somebody in half.

And back to race to marvels credit a lot of the characters with "black" in the name (black bolt, black cat, black widow) are white and a lot of black characters (powerman, storm, falcon, captain marvel) have normal hero names.

Quote from: lugaru on May 16, 2010, 10:07:31 AM
And back to race to marvels credit a lot of the characters with "black" in the name (black bolt, black cat, black widow) are white and a lot of black characters (powerman, storm, falcon, captain marvel) have normal hero names.

I remember in an issue of Marvel Team-Up (don't remember the issue offhand, but I believe it was the one where Spider-Man and Beast fought the Modular Man and Killer Shrike) there was a letter by someone wondering why there were black heroes with `Black' in their name yet Hulk wasn't called "Green Hulk", Shang-Chi wasn't called "Yellow Shang-Chi", etc. Yet they conveniently overlooked that in some cases the name made sense (like Black Panther). Quite possibly the stupidest letter I've ever read in a comic to this day.

Racial stereotyping is a LOT worse than giving a black character a name that starts with `Black'.

None of these articles are accusing DC of being deliberately racist, or setting out to make their universe more caucasian than it already is, they're just pointing out an unpleasant side effect of their backwards-looking policy with legacy characters.

I think its a point well worth making, and it can't be overlooked.

The same point can be made for female characters. For example, when Grant Morrison returned the JLA to the "big seven" at the start of his run I'm pretty sure he wasn't intending for there to be a token female member, but that was the result until he expanded their ranks.

Its unclear whether this retro attitude is caused by fans or writers. I suspect Barry Allen's return (for example) meant more to Geoff Johns than to a lot of fans. Either way, its good to remind both fans and writers of the cost of winding the clock back this way.

Urgh... What is the point of this thread? Every time we start to discuss these matters a mod comes and destroys it. #controllermayhem #theauthority #nazigermany

Quote from: GhostMachine on May 16, 2010, 07:36:03 AM

Quote from: detourne_me on May 16, 2010, 07:17:32 AM
GM. Look at the Young Avengers. I'd say that that is a group of legacy characters that occupy all groups you've suggested. They have all become successful characters, and without much opposition from fans.

I should probably have mentioned them. I don't read the Young Avengers comics, but they seem to be handled how legacy heroes should be done. The only character I have any problem with would probably be Patriot, but that's only because I think The Truth was a story that should never have been made an official part of the Marvel Universe, hence his grandfather Isaiah Bradley shouldn't exist. (I understand why Marvel did that story, and its based on what happened at Tuskegee in the real world, but it sort of taints Captain America)

How does it taint Captain America? You talk out your arse a lot about the most random things. Captain America was a subject to an experiment and the America government has a long history of experimenting on people of color. The Truth was a good series and I dont see how a good story (and the multitude of solid positive black characters) should be cast aside especially since the mini focuses on all the heroic actions of a Black man. That sounds like you simply dont want a black Captain America or you didnt read the mini and just want things to be the way you want them - news flash - they don't write comics just for you.

#clarkkentracism #transformersracismindisguise

Quote from: GhostMachine on May 16, 2010, 10:31:21 AM

Quote from: lugaru on May 16, 2010, 10:07:31 AM
And back to race to marvels credit a lot of the characters with "black" in the name (black bolt, black cat, black widow) are white and a lot of black characters (powerman, storm, falcon, captain marvel) have normal hero names.

I remember in an issue of Marvel Team-Up (don't remember the issue offhand, but I believe it was the one where Spider-Man and Beast fought the Modular Man and Killer Shrike) there was a letter by someone wondering why there were black heroes with `Black' in their name yet Hulk wasn't called "Green Hulk", Shang-Chi wasn't called "Yellow Shang-Chi", etc. Yet they conveniently overlooked that in some cases the name made sense (like Black Panther). Quite possibly the stupidest letter I've ever read in a comic to this day.

Racial stereotyping is a LOT worse than giving a black character a name that starts with `Black'.

Oh Jesus, Joseph and Mary - I just read what you wrote and you really must be kidding. Using the word "Black" or words that invoke an character ethnicity in the name is extremely racist. See Black Bird Black Marvel, Black Lightning Black Thunder, Black Vulcan, Black Manta, Black Power Ranger Ebony White etc. Also there is a Yellow Claw, Yellow Kid, Yellow Power Rangers Pieface (oh brother) and a couple of characters who are white who become Asian (this is even more racist in my mind #yellowface)  see Psylocke and Dr Droom. Based on your it's ok maybe I should start calling myself Black Ant so people don't get confused about what ethnic background I am...

Also this isn't an issue of legacy character being ethnic (and I dont even see how that even frelling manners), this is an issue of how ethnic characters are killed, replaced, or depowered because of editorial and writer demands white characters- essentially now that white is right in comic book universes (ok just DC, as Marvel has a host of A-list ethnic characters) and it is sad to see characters such as Jason and Ryan Choi be pushed to the side for white versions (even if the white version is the original) when they are just as good - there are no bad characters just stereotyping writers (see Johns, Millar, and Dixon).


Another thing Mr White Ghost, Black Widow, Black Knight, and Black Bird (the x-plane) don't count - they have as much naming significance as Yellow Jacket - by that I mean they are names that existed before Marvel Comics and describe their powers not who they are ethnically. As for Black Cat, that was almost Storm's name, powers, and ethnic description. For someone who is so gunho about legacy characters and comic book names, you sure do lack knowledge. #fairweatherreader #whitepowerlantern

Also besides the White Lanterns (White power rings for an all white cast), name some white superheroes with the word White in their name. I'll wait...

There needs to be more Mexicans in comics. I know for a fact that Pa Kent can't manage his farm all on his own so where the heck is Guerillmo, Pablo, and Esteban? I mean come on DC, I know it's not politically correct but show my people some love.

The next time Clark tells Pa he shouldn't be working so hard they should have a discussion similar to this:

Superman: Dad, you're working too hard. Take it easy.

Pa Kent: Oh, don't you worry about me son, I got Guerillmo now.

Superman: Guerillmo? Is that some disease? My x-ray vision isn't picking up any abnormalities in your body?

Pa: No, son. Guerrillmo is my new farmhand.

Superman: You really love aliens, don't you?

Pa: Oh Clark, el oh el!


But seriously, I'd like to see more Hispanic characters. But please don't make them caricatures like Dizzy from 100 Bullets. Jamie Reyes (Blue Beetle) is an excellent example of a good Hispanic comic character.

Quote from: murs47 on May 16, 2010, 04:37:41 PM
There needs to be more Mexicans in comics. I know for a fact that Pa Kent can't manage his farm all on his own so where the heck is Guerillmo, Pablo, and Esteban? I mean come on DC, I know it's not politically correct but show my people some love.

The next time Clark tells Pa he shouldn't be working so hard they should have a discussion similar to this:

Superman: Dad, you're working too hard. Take it easy.

Pa Kent: Oh, don't you worry about me son, I got Guerillmo now.

Superman: Guerillmo? Is that some disease? My x-ray vision isn't picking up any abnormalities in your body?

Pa: No, son. Guerrillmo is my new farmhand.

Superman: You really love aliens, don't you?

Pa: Oh Clark, el oh el!


But seriously, I'd like to see more Hispanic characters. But please don't make them caricatures like Dizzy from 100 Bullets. Jamie Reyes (Blue Beetle) is an excellent example of a good Hispanic comic character.

Don't forget Aztek! His codename tells you his ethnicity! And everybody hates Jaime because he's not the White ones - see DC Forums (I personally love Jaime and I'm sad he got pushed into Teen Titans because frankly the title blows donkey #@%%s).

QuoteDon't forget Aztek! His codename tells you his ethnicity!

Yup, it's about time Australian's got their own comic book hero.

Quote...I personally love Jaime and I'm sad he got pushed into Teen Titans...

Ya, it sucks. But his solo just wasn't selling enough. But at least DC understands that Ted Kord doesn't sell very much either. Why in the world they think Ray Palmer is going to sell anymore than he has before is beyond me. I would have just stuck with Choi and developed him in JL or some other team book since he has a pretty strong following already. But what can you do?

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 04:01:34 PM
Urgh... What is the point of this thread? Every time we start to discuss these matters a mod comes and destroys it. #controllermayhem #theauthority #nazigermany

AA, if you don't want the thread to be closed, perhaps you should look to your own words, my friend.  I sympathize with your sentiments, but your obvious passion about this topic has you coming off as offensive on the broad spectrum, specifically the bit of (what many would consider) blasphemy in your previous post and your overall tone.  Calm down man, obviously we've got some disagreements here, but let's discuss them like adults, okay?  I certainly would prefer us to be able to have discussions like this, but if we can't handle them in a relatively politically neutral and mature manner, then I'd say the mods are right to shut them down.

I really think that this article, and you yourself, my friend, place too much weight on the (perhaps) imaginary racist motivations for the choices that are being made.  You says everyone hates Jamie because he's not white...but that's just silly.  I'm sure that, in this wide and very sad world of ours, there are some for whom that's true, but speaking for myself, I didn't like him precisely because Ted Kord died like a chump just so he could come to be.  Then I didn't like him because none of the books I read with him in them were particularly interesting to me (though my experience with his is admittedly slim).  I think you are vastly overstating the role race actually plays in all of this.  

For example, I am someone who loves the classic big seven JLA.  Do I love them because they are white?  Don't be preposterous.  I love them because those are the characters that I grew up on.  Did that circumstance, their all being white, occur because the writers and artists were racist?  I rather doubt such was the case, at least in any personal, conscious kind of way.  They were the product of a casually racist culture, and yes, that is a shame.  Still, I don't think that this necessarily marks these characters as somehow "bad" or "corrupt" because they came out of a time where people had some incredibly narrow-minded ideas.  Do we still need these characters?  Should we still be telling stories about them?  Well, those are other questions, and much more legitimate ones.  Personally, I'd be happy to move forward if we could ever get worthy endings to these stories, but that isn't the way the industry works.  I loved the stories from the 70's, set on an alternate earth, where Bruce Wayne married and retired and Robin was carrying on the good fight.  However, the much more common pattern is to kill off an existing character in an often meaningless and almost always tawdry kind of way, and what follows doesn't usually make a whole lot of narrative sense.

Which brings us to another point that several of you have made.  This is a problem, and I would agree that the lack of growth in comics in general, is a problem, even if not necessarily in the terms defined here, but it is one which is not easily laid at the feet of just one group.  The fans, the editors, and the writers all share some of the blame for the way things are.  We vote with our dollars that really worthwhile new characters like Ryan Choi (who I originally hated because he wasn't Ray Palmer, but grew to love because of who he was) aren't actually worth reading about.  So, in many ways we get the comics we deserve.

I of course consider myself above all you peons, though, as I'm obviously better than the existing comics world. ^_^

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:00:35 PM
I really think that this article, and you yourself, my friend, place too much weight on the (perhaps) imaginary racist motivations for the choices that are being made. 

The article isn't saying race is the motivation, Benton. It points out the unintended side effects of the backwards thinking DC (and specifically Geoff Johns) is participating in and how it's effecting its cast's racial diversity (and if it matters, Gail Simone agrees to some degree, though she didn't expand on her thoughts).

The focus also wasn't on just race but the lack of diversity for all minorities and what happened to said characters that were used to spread cultural awareness.

With all that said, CNN just came out with a (scientifically unfound) study on races a few days ago. I'd link to it... but, you know.

Quote from: Previsionary on May 16, 2010, 05:05:18 PM

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:00:35 PM
I really think that this article, and you yourself, my friend, place too much weight on the (perhaps) imaginary racist motivations for the choices that are being made. 

The article isn't saying race is the motivation, Benton. It points out the unintended side effects of the backwards thinking DC (and specifically Geoff Johns) is participating in and how it's effecting its cast racial diversity (and if it matters, Gail Simon agrees to some degree, though she didn't expand on her thoughts).

The focus also wasn't on just race but the lack of diversity for all minorities and what happened to said characters that were used to spread cultural awareness.

Ahh, my mistake, Prev.  I speak then about the response this article has created, rather than the piece itself.  Forgive me for only skimming, time is of the essence this week.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:00:35 PM
I of course consider myself above all you peons, though, as I'm obviously better than the existing comics world. ^_^

Just for that, I'm eating a tuna sandwich for lunch today.

murs47 - 1

aquatic sea life - 0

Take that, Benton!

Benton, even if I didn't say a word (which I could never do #mercwithamouthrealness) this post would be shut down. It breaks the rules of the forums.

I honestly thought the last thread was calm and just people discussing opinions - I didn't realize we were discussing politics. #obama2012

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 05:14:08 PM
Benton, even if I didn't say a word (which I could never do #mercwithamouthrealness) this post would be shut down. It breaks the rules of the forums.

I honestly thought the last thread was calm and just people discussing opinions - I didn't realize we were discussing politics. #obama2012

Perhaps, AA.  I didn't see where the last thread ended up, but I believe that if we can conduct ourselves with a bit of decorum, we could actually manage an interesting discussion such as this.  I don't believe that confining our discussion to trends within the comics themselves, and not tossing around accusations of racism among the board members themselves, would break the rules per se.

Quote from: murs47 on May 16, 2010, 05:13:26 PM

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:00:35 PM
I of course consider myself above all you peons, though, as I'm obviously better than the existing comics world. ^_^

Just for that, I'm eating a tuna sandwich for lunch today.

murs47 - 1

aquatic sea life - 0

Take that, Benton!

*Mentally commands the bits of tuna to wriggle and choke Murs.*  Yep....I can do that...bet you didn't know it.

i really dont look that DEEP into a comic.i read it for the entertainment.i also have tried to keep any chips on my shoulder concerning race,religion,politics,ect..put away so i dont end up looking/sounding like the very people i tend to roll my eyes at.to each his own.to get respect youve got to give it.no matter what color you are.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:17:54 PM

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 05:14:08 PM
Benton, even if I didn't say a word (which I could never do #mercwithamouthrealness) this post would be shut down. It breaks the rules of the forums.

I honestly thought the last thread was calm and just people discussing opinions - I didn't realize we were discussing politics. #obama2012

Perhaps, AA.  I didn't see where the last thread ended up, but I believe that if we can conduct ourselves with a bit of decorum, we could actually manage an interesting discussion such as this.  I don't believe that confining our discussion to trends within the comics themselves, and not tossing around accusations of racism among the board members themselves, would break the rules per se.

I'm sorry but this is "Racial stereotyping is a LOT worse than giving a black character a name that starts with `Black'. " is offensive to me. It belittles the problems with race in comics (the topic of this thread). Ethnic superheroes are just that ethnic. There are exceptions to the rules (all of them Marvel owned characters) but ultimately it's insulting for me to read a comment like that - Especially given the way DC comics (Geoff Johns) portrays black characters. I said this before but if you are Black in DC Comics - you are a bad guy, a victim, or stereotype. There is no in-between and no exceptions. It is even more telling that DC ALWAYS declares diverse characters (be it gender, race, or sexuality) cannon fodder. Personally I'm still very upset that the Tangent Universe (with it strong diverse cast) and Milestone Universe (again serving you quality diversity) have been either demonified (see evil Black Superman and evil Chinese Powergirl) or whitewashed (see Static).  It shows me DC doesn't care about me or my money because their loyal Silver Agers (aka the time there were no black people) are what is important to their bottom line.

Well, far be it for me to defend modern DC.  That is certainly not my intention.  I haven't read anything of theirs in coming up on two years now, and I was never a fan of most of the characters you mention.  Still, I am wondering about Jon Stewart.  I haven't read tons of books with him in them, but it seems to me that he eventually became a pretty significant character in his own right.  Obviously, that's only one, though.

I don't know about stereotypical writing, but could you give me some examples, AA?  It isn't that I doubt you, but it is a question of curiosity.  I always thought of Johns as a pretty decent writer, but then again, I've only really seen his writing in the bits of the Sinestro Corps. arcs that I read at the library.  

Still, even if he and others are writing minority characters in stereotypical ways, that may very well speak more of poor writing skills or a lack of actual experience than racism.  Then again, it may not.  I'm making no claims.

Also, over the course of this discussion, keep in mind that this is very much a matter of perspective.  Obviously, this is an issue that is very important to you, and as such, you've seen elements of this issue where many of the rest of us haven't necessarily noticed anything.  That doesn't mean anything more than a difference in the way we look at comics.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:48:32 PM
Well, far be it for me to defend modern DC.  That is certainly not my intention.  I haven't read anything of theirs in coming up on two years now, and I was never a fan of most of the characters you mention.  Still, I am wondering about Jon Stewart.  I haven't read tons of books with him in them, but it seems to me that he eventually became a pretty significant character in his own right.  Obviously, that's only one, though.

Jon Stewart was crippled, depowered, his wife was murdered and he was made into an angry black man (a far cry from his original concept). I'm certain if he were a woman in the DC universe he would've been raped as well. More recently Jon been portrayed as his Timm version but that is completely attributed to the success of Dwayne McDuffie's (black writer, creator of Milestone Comics) writing on the show. The only significant attribute Geoff Johns has added in his GL Reboot is that Stewart is a mass murder of Xanshi (a black alien race) and responsible for Fatality.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:48:32 PM
I don't know about stereotypical writing, but could you give me some examples, AA?  It isn't that I doubt you, but it is a question of curiosity.  I always thought of Johns as a pretty decent writer, but then again, I've only really seen his writing in the bits of the Sinestro Corps. arcs that I read at the library.  

Johns is a great writer. I enjoy his work but his characterization of black characters are either magic negroes (Jakeem Thunder), Uncle Toms (Mr Terrific), or stereotypical African American heroes (see Amazing Man and his dishiki and kente cloth hat). To prove my point further, Johns promised this new world of hope and heroic with Brightest Day but offered us white superheroes fighting child rapist African pirates and Black Manta slaughtering random people for no reason other than Aquaman is back (I can't wait for Black Manta who still has no name other than Black Manta starts on his racist tangents...)

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:48:32 PM
Still, even if he and others are writing minority characters in stereotypical ways, that may very well speak more of poor writing skills or a lack of actual experience than racism.  Then again, it may not.  I'm making no claims.

When every non-white male character is directly tied to their ethnicity, it shows ethnic readers we can only be what we already are. We can't be Batman or Robin, we can't be Superman (unless we are evil and having sex with evil Chinese Powergirls), we can't be Wonder Woman (don't get me started on Nubia...really the Amazons made a baby out of brown clay and decided to call her Nubia?).  Look at what writers think of other ethnicities - The Great Ten (the only title with ethnic leads in DC currently has kung fu masters, taoist supermen, and a character who give birth to numerous people). These character stereotype Asians as nothing more than exotic, "noble" warriors who can have way too many babies. I mean come on how is your super power having super babies!

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:48:32 PM
Also, over the course of this discussion, keep in mind that this is very much a matter of perspective.  Obviously, this is an issue that is very important to you, and as such, you've seen elements of this issue where many of the rest of us haven't necessarily noticed anything.  That doesn't mean anything more than a difference in the way we look at comics.

I don't think it's a difference of the way we see things when every character of color is either empowered by their ethnic heritage (are white superheroes so lucky that only they are stuck by speedforce lighting or born from a white ubermensch alien race?) or made legacy characters and referenced to as the "black green lantern" or "Blackstorm". It's reeks of racism in not only the mainstream comic industry but also the fans.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 06:34:36 PM
Jon Stewart was crippled, depowered, his wife was murdered and he was made into an angry black man (a far cry from his original concept). I'm certain if he were a woman in the DC universe he would've been raped as well. More recently Jon been portrayed as his Timm version but that is completely attributed to the success of Dwayne McDuffie's (black writer, creator of Milestone Comics) writing on the show. The only significant attribute Geoff Johns has added in his GL Reboot is that Stewart is a mass murder of Xanshi (a black alien race) and responsible for Fatality.

Well, that's par for the course, but it sounds to me like he has been treated pretty much the same as many other heroes, regardless of race.  Let's see....Aquaman's child was murdered, his wife went crazy, he was turned into an angry white man (a far cry from his original concept), and then he was turned squid-faced and killed.  Ray Palmer's wife cheated on him, then he was lost in a tiny but savage little alien society where he met and fell in love with someone else.  She died in a fire, and Ray's ex-wife went nuts and murdered a whole bunch of people, causing him to disappear because he couldn't deal with all of this.  Yep, bad stuff only happens to minority characters. ;)  I'm joking, of course, but I suppose one of the reasons that I don't see all of this as quite as big an issue as some of our other FR members is that, for me, it tends to blend into the background of terrible choices I see in modern comics.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 06:34:36 PM
Johns is a great writer. I enjoy his work but his characterization of black characters are either magic negroes (Jakeem Thunder), Uncle Toms (Mr Terrific), or stereotypical African American heroes (see Amazing Man and his dishiki and kente cloth hat). To prove my point further, Johns promised this new world of hope and heroic with Brightest Day but offered us white superheroes fighting child rapist African pirates and Black Manta slaughtering random people for no reason other than Aquaman is back (I can't wait for Black Manta who still has no name other than Black Manta starts on his racist tangents...)

Child rapist African pirates?  Ahh....lovely modern comics.  Black Manta's underwater racism thing was something that I've always thought was interesting when it was done well....the problem is, it isn't usually done well.  I'd be okay with them taking the JLU line and renaming him Devilfish.  That was a fairly awesome name, but if he does dupe people into following him based on a racist rhetoric, his current appellation does actually fit.

This confuses me a bit, you refer to Mr. Terrific as an Uncle Tom.  To be honest, I haven't read THAT much of the character, but I have read several arcs with him in them.  What confuses me is that here we have, to my reading, an incredibly smart and capable hero who is black...but there is something wrong with him because he acts "white?"  Yet, you criticize characters for being stereotypically "black."  I would think that characters who aren't identified primarily by race would be a good thing.  Obviously, something that was a realistic compromise between the two would be preferred, but it has always troubled me when people criticize a character for not acting enough like their given race.  There is no established standard, whatever the pop culture machine may feed us, no natural state for members of one race or another.  Let me be clear here, I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm honestly trying to understand your position, AA, and I know tone is a very tricky thing to discern in print.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 06:34:36 PM
When every non-white male character is directly tied to their ethnicity, it shows ethnic readers we can only be what we already are. We can't be Batman or Robin, we can't be Superman (unless we are evil and having sex with evil Chinese Powergirls), we can't be Wonder Woman (don't get me started on Nubia...really the Amazons made a baby out of brown clay and decided to call her Nubia?).  Look at what writers think of other ethnicities - The Great Ten (the only title with ethnic leads in DC currently has kung fu masters, taoist supermen, and a character who give birth to numerous people). These character stereotype Asians as nothing more than exotic, "noble" warriors who can have way too many babies. I mean come on how is your super power having super babies!

Ehh, this all speaks to me more of lazy writing and ignorance, the same trends that pass torturing heroes and supporting cast off as character development, than any type of willful racism.  Nubia was created in 1973 by a couple of white guys who, I'm sure, thought they were doing something good by introducing a black character into Wonder Woman.  Did they do it in a stupid and ham-handed way?  Yep.  Should her name be changed?  Probably.  Yeah, stories like this definitely shouldn't still be being told, but they are crutches for people with a dearth of ideas. :P

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 06:34:36 PM
I don't think it's a difference of the way we see things when every character of color is either empowered by their ethnic heritage (are white superheroes so lucky that only they are stuck by speedforce lighting or born from a white ubermensch alien race?) or made legacy characters and referenced to as the "black green lantern" or "Blackstorm". It's reeks of racism in not only the mainstream comic industry but also the fans.

That's precisely what I mean though, AA.  When I look at these characters, I certainly don't see that divide, largely because I'm not looking for it.  I'm not saying that your arguments aren't legitimate (I think this discussion is a nice way to suss out what is actually going on, giving us all a chance to learn something), but that the fact that I HAVEN'T seen these things isn't a function of me being racist or wanting a "white-washed" DCU.  Instead, it has to do with the fact that I'm approaching the world with a different perspective.  

With Jon, I don't have a problem. In fact I'm not the one who brought him up in this because 1) he would be in limbo if not for JLU and McDuffie wanting him on the show (despite fans crying how he was an affirmative action hero) and 2) he (and Vixen) is the one positive thing DCU has done with an ethnic character in ages (and all it took was 25 years and a black writer). He is well known but he still fall into this physical description before superhero name with fans "black green lantern". Hal will never be the white green lantern because he's the default. He is the norm.

Mr Terrific is an Uncle Tom because in his 10+ years of existence he hasn't done anything but inspire disdain from me for ignoring his past. Acting "white" if there is such a thing *rolls eyes* isn't the problem - the problem is his complete lack of ethnic identity. This is the pattern with Johns writing - either ethnic characters are stereotypes or basically in black (T) face. Another thing - leave it to Geoff Johns to make Mr Terrific have a problem with Amazing Man's world view (he told Katrina victims they were the reason they were poor...Oh Johns...). To me, Johns used these two characters to show how he feels black people should act - they should be black only in appearance, ignore hundred of years of institutional racism and poverty, and work hard so white people will take them serious.

Benton, I think you know there is a big difference between someone being black and someone being a stereotype. I'm not asking for Mr Terrific to be a stereotype, I asking that if he is a black character he should be black (see Storm, Black Panther, Luke Cage). If Mr Terrific was a real person he would be Carlton Banks.

If by lazy writing you mean ignorance - yeah, you are right but it doesn't make it right nor does it make it less true. Racism is racism even if you don't realize you are being racist.

Black Manta will be Black Manta because Geoff Johns wants it that way. He will also be an angry, murderous, racist because that is what Johns thinks the core of the character is (despite the years of evolution...). I'd also like to point out that Aquaman is the most Aryan looking of the top tier DC Comics and Johns think that his natural enemy is a black character rather than his historical nemesis (Ocean Master).

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 07:19:22 PM
With Jon, I don't have a problem. In fact I'm not the one who brought him up in this because 1) he would be in limbo if not for JLU and McDuffie wanting him on the show (despite fans crying how he was an affirmative action hero) and 2) he (and Vixen) is the one positive thing DCU has done with an ethnic character in ages. He is well know but he still fall into this physical description before superhero name with fans.

Mr Terrific is an Uncle Tom because in his 10+ years of existence he hasn't done anything but inspire disdain from me for ignoring his past. Acting "white" if there is such a thing *rolls eyes* isn't the problem - the problem is his complete lack of ethnic identity. This is the pattern with Johns writing - either ethnic characters are stereotypes or basically in black face.

Well, Jon was the one character who (in my admittedly limited) experience with modern DC comics seemed like an example of a positive.  I suppose it is an effect of McDuffie being a great writer in the right spot to doing something good with those two characters.  I wonder if that isn't a fairly significant part of this problem.  Writers tend to write what they know, and if most of the staff is white, then there would obviously be a dearth of minority voices in play.  

I suppose then that my trouble understand your point about Mr. Terrific comes from a lack of back-knowledge about him.  I know his origin, but that's about it.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 07:19:22 PMBenton, I think you know there is a big difference between someone being black and someone being a stereotype. I'm not asking for Mr Terrific to be a stereotype, I asking that if he is a black character he should be black (see Storm, Black Panther, Luke Cage). If Mr Terrific was a real person he would be Carlton Banks.

Poor Carlton. ^_^  Anyway, of course I know that there is a difference, but culturally there isn't usually much differentiation, which I find to be one of the most frustrating things about discussions on race.  People often take fallacious positions about what is "natural" or some other such nonsense.  The way I read your post was as making just such an argument, and I respect you enough to have asked for clarification, since I didn't think you'd be taking such a stance.  I can understand that characters such as Storm, Black Panther, and Luke Cage all have strong personalities that draw heavily from their respective origins.  Is that the type of thing you mean?  Why don't you clarify a bit what you mean by being "black?"  :)

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 16, 2010, 07:19:22 PM
If by lazy writing you mean ignorance - yeah, you are right but it doesn't make it right nor does it less true. Racism is racism even if you don't realize you are being racist.

Black Manta will be Black Manta because Geoff Johns wants it that way. He will also be an angry, murderous, racist because that is what Johns thinks the core of the character is (despite the years of evolution...).

Fair enough, and lazy writing is never excusable. ;)  I give a certain amount of leeway to ignorance versus willful racism.  The one is to be corrected, the other is to be stamped out.

That is exactly my point with Mr Terrific vs the examples I gave. They have ethnic identity and it is important.

As for there being not that much difference, I don't agree with that statement. If there is enough of a difference for writers to make distinction between white characters (see Southern belle Rogue, ragin' Cajun Gambit, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc, etc) than people of different socio-economic and ethnic identity should be afforded the same luxury. If Superman can have the identity of beinga  Kansas farm boy, why can't minority DC characters be minorities without it being a joke, offensive, or ignored completely? Shouldn't I be able to read a comic and relate to characters of the same ethnic identity?  

I really hate the "Silver Age with a lot of blood" Geoff Johns style, but I must admit I believe Benton hit the spot. Johns is ignorant, he chose ignores a lot of things, including diversity. He dreams with a comic universe with "hardcore silver age guys", no golden age guys, no legacy characters (except the ones he loves, like Superboy). But there's limits to ignorance, since there are a lot of internet topics about his failings the guy could try correct them. If so many people feels his writing is offensive (and even racist), maybe he should re-evaluate his point of views, but I doubt it.
I can understand AA', worries. Sometimes ignorance can be very dangerous, Johns & cia probably aren't doing  this in purpose, but their stereotypical characters are potentially damaging. A good editor could avoid this, but, there's no such animal.  

Ahh, I think I am beginning to see.  Where Black Panther comes from is important, just as it is important where Rogue comes from.  Hmm....but it isn't important where Cyclops comes from....but I suppose that if there were more minority characters, it wouldn't be as much of an issue if some of them were generic in background, hmm?  Thanks for explaining AA, I think I am beginning to understand your argument.

I don't believe I said that there wasn't much difference.  If you're referring to my previous point, I meant that there wasn't usually any differentiation in popular between various stereotypes of race and the type of identity that you were trying to outline, which I said was a negative thing.

Yes, I can certainly see how that could be a very frustrating state of affairs, AA.  Thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view. :)

Quote from: John Jr. on May 16, 2010, 07:59:35 PM
A good editor could avoid this, but, there's no such animal.  

All the more reason I should be running DC. :P

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:17:54 PM
*Mentally commands the bits of tuna to wriggle and choke Murs.*  Yep....I can do that...bet you didn't know it.

You disgust me.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 08:02:02 PM
All the more reason I should be running DC. :P

I'm not interested in replacing what few DC characters I like with Care Bears. :P

Quote from: murs47 on May 16, 2010, 08:21:40 PM

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 05:17:54 PM
*Mentally commands the bits of tuna to wriggle and choke Murs.*  Yep....I can do that...bet you didn't know it.

You disgust me.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 08:02:02 PM
All the more reason I should be running DC. :P

I'm not interested in replacing what few DC characters I like with Care Bears. :P

I have no interest in those colorful ursine fools....fool.

You can't write it off as just Johns though. His writing is popular enough to garner him the position of Chief Creative Director at DC. He is now in charge of the direction that DC universe will be taking from now on. I was aware of Millar's reputation involving how he portrays race in his stories, but I was suprised at how much there is out there on Johns. So it makes me wonder, given he is probably aware of some of the comments made about him, if this is a simple case of ignorance or something he is deliberately doing?

As for Marvel, they are heads above DC in terms of their depicition of minorities, but they still have some weak spots. Wakanda is supposed to be a technologically advanced nation yet the people still dress like extras from Kings Solomons Mine. It's one thing to give them their own ethnic identity, but last time I checked, people in Africa wear pants and shirts.

Shang-Chi is a casualty of the Bruce-ploitatoin movement and nothing much has been done with him since then. Even the few times he does appear, he still embodies the sterotype of the martial artist. Someone who is asexual and seemingly devoid of any human emotion.

Dr.Strange and Iron Fist are both representative of white men who go to the "mysterious orient" and obtain "ancient secret arts". Both become students of gurus (aka old asian man) and both rise quickly above their fellow students (aka non-white men). The gurus then choose them to be inheritors of their respective secret arts despite being foreigners.

These aren't deliberate forms of racism, but sterotypes that get perpetrated ad naseum. The problem is they get used so much that eventually they become part of the culture. Look at that new Sylvester Stallone movie, the one that has every action movie star ever. All the main characters have guns or some form of modern weaponry, but Jet Li runs around with knives. It's one thing for him to be a martial artist, but for him to be running around a gun fight with knives is a bit odd.

Good points Ajax, and well said.  You know, I've actually always liked the fact that the Wakandans still wear "traditional" grab.  To me it said something about the fact that they didn't need to be westernized to be civilized.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 16, 2010, 08:56:40 PM
Good points Ajax, and well said.  You know, I've actually always liked the fact that the Wakandans still wear "traditional" grab.  To me it said something about the fact that they didn't need to be westernized to be civilized.

That's exactly what I always thought too.

As for Cyclops, he has an identity - he's boring. But all kidding aside Cyclops is sort of a bigot now. He refused to help Dagger (even though she and Cloak were helping him for the last couple of months) because they weren't mutants. So I guess he's Utopian American.  



@Ajax I completely agree with you on all of those example however all those characters are products of their time. My concern with race in comics is directly tied to writers choices in modern comics. There is no excuse for a female Chinese characters superpower to be giving birth to Chinese Super-soldiers or taoism to empower someone with Superman-level powers. While Marvel has had its faults when you compare the two comic universes DC is "brighter".

I must admit I am mixed on this issue.  I'm mixed blood Native American and Caucasian, I had a black godfather, and a Hispanic babysitter; so, seeing the rainbow of humanity was normal for me.  I even wanted darker flesh than what God gave me; so, I am sensitive to the lack of good ethnic characters in comics.  Don't get me started on all the buckskin and feather wearing ecoterrorists that are supposed to pass for Indians.

On the other hand, I prefer the comic book characters I grew up reading to remain as I remember them.  When I think of comics, I am about the nostalgia of being a little kid reading Superman or Batman comics that only cost me a quarter while chewing gum that cost only two pennies.  On the other other hand, I don't even read current comic books.  The stories have gotten to gritty.  It is harder to tell the good guys from the bad guys.  A whole new morality seems to be taking over.  Things will never go back to way they were, and today will the nostalgic memory for someone else.

Also, as someone who plays around with story writing, writing for other ethnic groups can be tricky, and since some groups would prefer you write nothing at all rather than get something wrong, it is easier to write nothing at all.

Trying to veer back into more historical territory (and happy this is still open) I really think one of the things comics writers should be working on is casting off the legacy of Pulp/Golden Age. Silver age was whitewashed but it was before that when we saw the really nasty stuff. Writers these days have a responsability not to paint foreigners as scary villains, far off countries as mystical lands where any plot is possible, ethnic characters as cartoons who require rescue.

And yeah, at the same time we need to give comics writers a little space to breathe. I just finished Hellboy in Mexico and it is an incredibly stereotypical book but as a Mexican I think any creator from my country would have approached things just like Mike Mignola did. I mean as a teen in Mexico I saw stuff like "the ninja tortillas" (instead of ninja turtles, each character named after a Mexican painter) on the racks. There is a space for satire and I appreciate it. There is a place for big, uncensored ideas in comics. There is a place for a mecha kaiju to fight a giant mexican luchador. I just worry about the serious stuff which is most of superhero comics... when you dead seriosly say "This character is an angry black man, he is big and strong" people who know better look around and think "seriosly? In 2010? Why cant he be the psychic?"

I think a lot of it goes back to the idea that if all you read is comics and then you become a comics writer, well your comics have little chance of being better than what came before.

Quote from: lugaru on May 16, 2010, 11:28:09 PM
I think a lot of it goes back to the idea that if all you read is comics and then you become a comics writer, well your comics have little chance of being better than what came before.

That sums up Geoff Johns' work perfectly.

Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on May 16, 2010, 10:51:42 PM
Also, as someone who plays around with story writing, writing for other ethnic groups can be tricky, and since some groups would prefer you write nothing at all rather than get something wrong, it is easier to write nothing at all.

I can agree with this. I cringe every time I see the way Thunderball and Luke Cage are written by some writers in present day... but then i think back to how Black Goliath, Luke, Misty Knight and others were written in the 70s and 80s and remember, things have progressed... a little. Honestly, I could do without the way some writers choose to portray character identity as it relates to dialogue. Gambit and Rogue have some of the most annoying dialog sometimes all because writers are trying to make them sound "authentically" southern, and it sometimes blows up in their faces and reveals their ignorance and reliance on stereotypes.

Quote from: Previsionary on May 17, 2010, 01:54:53 AM

Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on May 16, 2010, 10:51:42 PM
Also, as someone who plays around with story writing, writing for other ethnic groups can be tricky, and since some groups would prefer you write nothing at all rather than get something wrong, it is easier to write nothing at all.

I can agree with this. I cringe every time I see the way Thunderball and Luke Cage are written by some writers in present day... but then i think back to how Black Goliath, Luke, Misty Knight and others were written in the 70s and 80s and remember, things have progressed... a little. Honestly, I could do without the way some writers choose to portray character identity as it relates to dialogue. Gambit and Rogue have some of the most annoying dialog sometimes all because writers are trying to make them sound "authentically" southern, and it sometimes blows up in their faces and reveals their ignorance and reliance on stereotypes.

Ha!  Now there's something that I could vent about....

I have lived in New Orleans for 4 years now and personally know a lot of cajuans I'm still waiting for someone to say "mon amie" to me or random insert french words into their sentences.

And we came back to the ignorance problem. A lot of comic book writers are only that, not "real" writers. They only read comics and can only write comics. They don't know about different cultures, so they rely on stereotypes. We always got a good laugh from the "Brazilian" comic book characters, because the writers don't even know we talk Portuguese here. And let's not start to talk about Fire...

I think saying it is ignorance is too easy an answer. Whether we can articulate it or not most decently educated individuals generally know what is and isn't racist. Afghan talked about an issue (don't know if this is true or not but I'll take his word for it) where Mr.Terrific goes down to New Orleans and says to the blacks after Katrina that it is their fault they are poor. For such a scene to even take place, Johns must have known what he was doing. He didn't send Star Girl down there or some other white hero. He sent a black character.

Quote from: Ajax on May 17, 2010, 03:40:59 AM
I think saying it is ignorance is too easy an answer. Whether we can articulate it or not most decently educated individuals generally know what is and isn't racist. Afghan talked about an issue (don't know if this is true or not but I'll take his word for it) where Mr.Terrific goes down to New Orleans and says to the blacks after Katrina that it is their fault they are poor. For such a scene to even take place, Johns must have known what he was doing. He didn't send Star Girl down there or some other white hero. He sent a black character.

It was Amazing Man not Mr Terrific - eventually Amazing Man and Mr Terrific have words implying they do not share each other worldview. Here is a part of the scene - http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v188/72/26/1010354/n1010354_32485794_2065.jpg

I'm all for scenes in reality but Johns using Katrina as a chance to talk about personal responsibility is in bad taste. Especially when he wrote this corny line to accompany it - "We need to find that amazing transformation within each one of us" (Amazing Man power is to transform...)

A blogger who discussed this matter summed it up as "Cosby-esque personal responsibility rhetoric that blames black people for the results of the past several hundred years of economic and social oppression" and I think that nails the scene perfectly.

It is even more insulting because the original Amazing Man was something of a Civil Rights hero but Johns has created this caricature to replace him. I meanly why is Amazing man wearing a kente hat and a dishiki? All other Amazing Men wear standard superhero costumes but Johns obviously thought they weren't Black enough (you being civil rights heroes and all the interracial/interspecies dating).

Frankly I'm just tired of seeing Johns graphical killed/depower minority characters because he can't tell a story without murdering someone and the black guy always dies first (unless you are Ted Kord of course).

Hmm...that scene by itself doesn't seem so bad.  I'd like to see the whole thing, 'cause I feel like I'm missing plenty of context.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 17, 2010, 04:33:24 AM
Hmm...that scene by itself doesn't seem so bad.  I'd like to see the whole thing, 'cause I feel like I'm missing plenty of context.

That line in itself isn't bad but its who he's talking too (a black man), who he's writing for (a black superhero), and where he set it (Post-Katrina).

It is clear Johns has no idea what Katrina did to poor Blacks in New Orleans. There is no taking responsibility when the government is corrupt, your insurance refuses to cover the damage, your family has died and you have nothing left. Is it right to steal and kill, no. In a world of Bruce Wayne's and Superman's, you'd think he or anyone at DC would seen that this "personal responsibility" comment is insulting but can I say, this is the same issue he introduced Amazing Black Man here and Japanese Judomaster (if you were wondering the first Judomaster was white) to the team.

Also he's greatly confused about the looting and general crime in this city during that time. It was about survival not stealing a radio (and I will never understand how your family dying makes you want to steal a radio).

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2ccwdb5.jpg)

You know who got post-Katrina perfectly - JMS in Thor. He actually gets they are victims.

I always thought Pete Milligan had it right. From his earliest work he's created multi-racial casts in a way that seems natural. His black characters aren't stereotypes or tokens, and the fact they're black gets addressed regualrly in ways that move the story along or provide character moments, and all those things a good writer should do. Bad Company in 2000AD, The Extremist, X-Statix, Greek Street, all feel like hes plucked the cast from a phone book of late 21st C London. King Leon in Deadline was a story with a black protagonist, but London black rather than US black.

He does this so much better than his fellow brits Grant Morrison and Mark Millar, to name two, and its easy to see why. Like I said, Milligan's from London, and has grown up in a properly multi-racial city. He's gone to school with black kids, drunk in pubs and gone to parties with black people and so on. Morrison and Millar are from Scotland, probably one of the whiter parts of the UK. Millar explained on his website once how he had one black kid in his year at school. Same here, out of 300 kids or so in my year. Morrison's attempts to write black characters, say Mr Miracle or the Final Crisis: Submit one off often feel a bit forced, like he's fulfilling a quota of some kind and copying some behaviour he's seen on TV or read in a magazine. Its good that he tries, but he seems to struggle a little bit.

I get this. On more than one occasion I've inadvertently created a supergroup with no black members. I have to keep reminding myself.

That's my perspective on writers that I can get a cultural handle on.
I don't know what the situation's like in the US, if there are pockets of whiteness similar to Scotland. But it wouldn't surprise me if there are, and if Geoff Johns comes from one of them.

More than anything, the industry could really use more black writers.

Quote from: DrMike2000 on May 17, 2010, 06:32:16 AM
More than anything, the industry could really use more black writers.

I think that's the core of the problem.
For example, the representation of women in fiction became less stereotypical when they (tv writers, movie writers, etc) finally hired women-writer to help them. Because you can only write correctly about what you know, and whatever you do, a man can never know what it's like to be a woman, just as a white man can't know what it's like to be a black man.

The problem would be, how to be fair to everyone? If you take every race possible, from every country possible, with every religion/personal belief possible and every sexual orientation possible, mixed with every social status...
Nobody can write that good. So writers use stereotype; but until there's someone from every origin to "show them how it's done" we're probably gonna see a lot more of that.

Being fair to everyone is a noble goal, alright, but giving black writers and black characters a fair crack of the whip is probably the most important issue to mainstream comics at the moment.

I could, for example, complain about the treatment of Scottish characters at the hands of American writers (and maybe extend that to Irish ones just so I could use Banshee as ammunition :) ), and talk about how great it was when Morrison finally wrote Madrox and the Mirror Master with proper Scottish accents.

But, Scots do not have a history rooted in slavery and oppression. Scots are not still at a considerable economic disadvantage in a century that should be doing better, or experience widlly differing treatment at the hands of the police and justice system. That's where the line needs drawing. Banshee living in a castle and smoking a clay pipe is easy to laugh off. Stereotyped or just plain absent black characters are not.

Quote from: Trelau on May 17, 2010, 11:02:07 AM
The problem would be, how to be fair to everyone? If you take every race possible, from every country possible, with every religion/personal belief possible and every sexual orientation possible, mixed with every social status...
Nobody can write that good. So writers use stereotype; but until there's someone from every origin to "show them how it's done" we're probably gonna see a lot more of that.

Religions isn't much of a problem because most comics don't tackle them, and when they do, they do so badly (X-men villains, Nightcrawler, Iceman). Regardless, for the past 2 years, Marvel has been making strides in hiring new talent from Spain, Italy, the UK, etc. and given them a shot at writing some of their bigger characters in One-shots and minis (Wolverine, Spider-man, Human Torch, Captain Britain, Deadpool).

With that said, Marvel does have "some" Black Writers and they don't seem to be fairing much better at representing those characters. Black Panther was written by Reginald Hudlin for almost 4 years, and he got such mixed reviews because of how he portrayed Storm and T'challa at the time (the characters were married during his run as well). Christopher Priest was also a pretty big writer for DC and Marvel, and both companies seemed to treat him badly in varying degrees.

If you aren't from the northeast or the west coast, you will likely be represented by a stereotype even if you are a white male.  Here's a hint not everyone in Texas and Oklahoma are cowboys and oilmen, not everyone from the deep south are bigoted racists, and many from both regions are well educated.  We aren't all hillbillies.

Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on May 17, 2010, 04:10:34 PM
If you aren't from the northeast or the west coast, you will likely be represented by a stereotype even if you are a white male.  Here's a hint not everyone in Texas and Oklahoma are cowboys and oilmen, not everyone from the deep south are bigoted racists, and many from both regions are well educated.  We aren't all hillbillies.

This is a good point, but Dr. Mike also makes a fairly important point.  There should be a certain amount of social responsibility in art, and it would behoove us, even in our fiction, to at least make some efforts to be aware of the more negative sides of our respective cultures and resist them in whatever venues are open to us.  That is not necessarily an easy thing to do.  As I was trying to say, and Dr. Mike said much more clearly, I think that the growing diversity in the industry itself is the best way to address some of these shortcomings even if, as Prev. points out, it is hardly a cure-all.  Also, it would be just as unfortunate if the industry were to fall into a pattern of writer segregation, where only black writers could write black characters and so on. 

AA, I lived through Katrina, I know what it was like, and there was quite a bit of looting that had nothing to do with survival.  Days after the storm hit I chased a few men out of the ruins of our family business where they were looting metal and other materials for salvage (no food or water, just stuff they could sell), and it was a good thing I was armed, because it could easily have turned ugly otherwise.  New Orleans was worse than many places for those things, but there was also more need there because the situation was so badly mismanaged.  Still, there was a lot of bad stuff going on...of course, there was also a 18 foot crocodile swimming through the streets, so it was obviously a fairly crazy time.

In this particular page (once again, I hesitate to comment too strongly since I haven't read the whole book), I think I can see what the author was trying to do.  There is a positive message there about overcoming adversity, but I can definitely see how it is, at best a backhanded type of compliment, eh?   I think I get your problem with it.  Maybe it is not a bad sentiment, but definitely not the right context or setting for it!

Quote from: Previsionary on May 17, 2010, 02:16:12 PM

Quote from: Trelau on May 17, 2010, 11:02:07 AM
The problem would be, how to be fair to everyone? If you take every race possible, from every country possible, with every religion/personal belief possible and every sexual orientation possible, mixed with every social status...
Nobody can write that good. So writers use stereotype; but until there's someone from every origin to "show them how it's done" we're probably gonna see a lot more of that.

Religions isn't much of a problem because most comics don't tackle them, and when they do, they do so badly (X-men villains, Nightcrawler, Iceman). Regardless, for the past 2 years, Marvel has been making strides in hiring new talent from Spain, Italy, the UK, etc. and given them a shot at writing some of their bigger characters in One-shots and minis (Wolverine, Spider-man, Human Torch, Captain Britain, Deadpool).

With that said, Marvel does have "some" Black Writers and they don't seem to be fairing much better at representing those characters. Black Panther was written by Reginald Hudlin for almost 4 years, and he got such mixed reviews because of how he portrayed Storm and T'challa at the time (the characters were married during his run as well). Christopher Priest was also a pretty big writer for DC and Marvel, and both companies seemed to treat him badly in varying degrees.

As man of color, I hate Hudlin. He ignores continuity, he doesn't understand characterization, and I honestly think he has his job because someone owed him a favor/thought it was a good PR stunt.

Priest on the other hand is a solid writer. I loved his JLX Unleashed, Black Panter was good, and time with Spider-man is ok (I'm not a Spidey fan). Is he is a great writer, no but I like him because he understands continuity and characterization. For every Priest there are ten Robbie Morrisons or Duane Swierczynskis - that's the problem.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 17, 2010, 05:32:56 PM
AA, I lived through Katrina, I know what it was like, and there was quite a bit of looting that had nothing to do with survival.  Days after the storm hit I chased a few men out of the ruins of our family business where they were looting metal and other materials for salvage (no food or water, just stuff they could sell), and it was a good thing I was armed, because it could easily have turned ugly otherwise.  New Orleans was worse than many places for those things, but there was also more need there because the situation was so badly mismanaged.  Still, there was a lot of bad stuff going on...of course, there was also a 18 foot crocodile swimming through the streets, so it was obviously a fairly crazy time.

Yes, but the majority of the looting had nothing to do with stealing for profit. In fact, most property was destroyed in the city (I'm not talking about Metairie or Kenner) and Johns choosing this has his chance to give his perspective on the Katrina problem through the eyes of a black character is in bad taste. It was a national tragedy, and should be treated as such. Katrina should not have been the chance for him to talking about how people should help themselves especially when the characters involved are black.

Now that's a fair point, the looting mostly wasn't happening in neighborhoods, but in the city proper.  Yep, I hear you, kicking a man when he's down and all them, hmm? 

We all remember the old GL/GA comic where an elderly black man asks GL why he hasn't done anything for the "black skins". Well someone has apparently decided it is time to come up with a response.

Clicky Clicky (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/05/17/green-lantern-slaps-back/)

Going to avoid the obvious flaws (just because he saves the earth doesn't necessarily mean he is doing it for everyone. Example: The Spartans didn't fight in the Persian War to protect their slaves) in the argument and just amuse myself at the fact that it looks like Hal is about to use his ring on a defenseless person. :P

Haha.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on May 17, 2010, 07:11:33 PM

Priest on the other hand is a solid writer. I loved his JLX Unleashed, Black Panter was good, and time with Spider-man is ok (I'm not a Spidey fan). Is he is a great writer, no but I like him because he understands continuity and characterization. For every Priest there are ten Robbie Morrisons or Duane Swierczynskis - that's the problem.

Also I LOVED The Crew, it was the sort of comic I kept wanting when I was a kid. Not so much the "we are all minorities" aspect (which I enjoy) but the idea that they are all low key, street level heroes with interesting lives under the mask. I especially love Kasper Cole (White Tiger/Black Panther), he is like the perfect "macho" Peter Parker balancing job, family obligations and a mask. I also thought it was dumb that Rhodes never put on the armor but after finishing the series it made perfect sense, Rhodes (if he was not all maimed up now) could make a perfect tough guy with gadgets, weapons and martial arts. They should bring the characters back, and I think current Daredevil comics would be the perfect place. Also anyone else think Isiah Bradley is super iconic? There is just something about "black captain america" that is really striking.

It looks like Geoff Johns continues to deface black characters...

Brightest Day #2 Spoilers (snagged from a forum)

Spoiler

(http://i48.tinypic.com/29vfpk9.jpg)

You make him and Ronnie murder his girlfriend, then you force him into backseat in the Firestorm matrix, now you've made him look like a bigot to Ronnie?

This is even worse than Ronnie's "you people" comment in Brighest Day #1.

AA: I can't be totally certain, but from the looks of things, there's no speech bubble coming off that particular comment. Equally, it looks like Firestorm hears something he doesn't say at the start of the page too. It could just be that Firestorm's hearing wacky voices (more than usual) so he's either mad or something's messing with him. The context of the page kinda supports that (if you read it that way), but we'll probably have to see the whole story to know for certain.

Equally, it's a fairly stupid thing to do regardless, especially if my interpretation above is wrong and Johns is just intending to set up racial tension between the two for no real reason.

Yes, Firestorm is hearing things and he thinks Jason is saying it, causing "dramatic" and "racial" tension. Well, more tension because from what I've been able to understand, the two characters already have issues between them.

just a tad after what ronnie did during blackest night lol...

Bumping this because someone wrote another blog article about it that includes Marvel this go round.

Quote from:
http://stolisomancer.livejournal.com/87338.html
It's a tricky situation. On the one hand, both companies make their living using holdover characters from, at best, the early sixties. While both companies have relatively high-profile non-white characters, both companies are also stuck with a central cast that was mostly created before the civil rights movement. (Marvel has a very slight edge in this department, mostly because of Robbie Robertson, but they didn't have a black superhero in his own book until 1972.) A lot of the newer fans that they so desperately need are clamoring for equal representation in these superhero universes - more non-white heroes, more gay heroes, etc. - but both companies are hamstrung by their dependence on the older fans' goodwill. Give a new character his own book (or even an older character who was created after 1965 or so) and it sinks without a trace; give a new character too much of the limelight in a team book and the fans thrall in droves.

What interests me about the discussion, though, mostly has to do with Greg Pak's work at Marvel. Pak's Korean, and got his start writing a bunch of miniseries that nobody really seemed to care about, like Rise of the Imperfects. Since then, he's written some high-profile stuff like World War Hulk and Incredible Hercules.

In a lot of Pak's work so far, he's managed to very subtly work in non-white and female characters without really drawing a lot of attention to it. He created Amadeus Cho, who's one of the more successful new characters to come out of Marvel in the last decade. Pak's War Machine run rehabilitated the extremely '90s character Suzi Endo from, of all things, Force Works, in a book that also featured James Rhodes and Bethany Cabe (who's probably one of the most obscure, yet awesome, characters at Marvel).

Pak didn't sit back and write angry letters to somebody until he got the characters he wanted. He started as a student filmmaker and eventually wound up at Marvel. Once he was there, he rolled up his sleeves and got to work. Sometimes it's really friggin' blatant, like that Korean SHIELD guy in Phoenix: Warsong (who is, seriously, only one or two steps above an author avatar, and who Pak later partially redeemed by making him a sort of well-meaning messup in War Machine), but Pak did it right. He created the change he wanted.

The other writers in the new crop at Marvel - Jeff Parker, Paul Tobin, Fred Van Lente - are all similarly adept. Tobin mostly writes the Marvel Adventures books, but did a pretty good turn with Venus and Namora recently in Fall of an Avenger. Parker is best known for shoehorning the Agents of Atlas, which are led by a Chinese guy, into absolutely everything he possibly can. Fred Van Lente introduced the half-Indian Jackie Kane in Marvel Zombies recently, and created the new Scorpion, Carmilla Black.

[...]

The important thing to remember, though, when discussing the issue of race in comics (or anywhere else, for that matter), is that progress is actually being made, if only a little bit at a time. We are moving forward.

The problem is finding a way to be part of the solution, but at least that part's relatively easy. One of the morals of the twentieth century, which we seem to conveniently forget a lot of the time, is that change doesn't happen by asking other people to change. Change starts with you.

Language warning as well. Ultimately... this made me miss the War Machine book from the Dark Reign era. Ironically, he was one of the only superheroes to constantly take on and fight Norman and his plans directly while the other heroes "reacted" to whatever bad omen hit them that week.

That was actually a good article. Those other ones were so whiny.

I agree DC has a horrible track record in how they treat characters of color and/or diverse ethnicity.  Marvel is guilty too, if on a smaller scale...

I was always a big fan of Storm...But I thought her marrying the Black Panther was a racial PR stunt (I didn't get it then and I still don't get it)...To me, Storm has gone from a resourceful, capable, contributing member and great leader of the X-Men to spoiled trophy wife of a king...IMHO, the character has suffered because of this marriage...In truth, I don't see how this marriage has helped either character.  I can't say that I care for Storm any longer, when the main focus of her character is that she's now a queen with queenly responsibilities. I'm not saying this is the worst thing to happen to these characters, but in my eyes, this move has done nothing to help them.

I happen to feel a few of the current writers at Marvel write minority characters as stereotypes (BMB being one of them).  

I also agree with you guys who say new characters of diverse ethnicity need to be created (as opposed to being legacy characters)...Some of my favorite characters of color/ethnicity (whether they are stereotypes or not is up for debate)...Shaman, Talisman and Windshear of Alpha Flight....I was a fan of Jubilee, when she first appeared (I lost interest in her over the years, I'm not sure if it was the way she was written or what)...I was also a fan of some of the New Mutants (Dani Moonstar and Shan/Karma).

Shaman has been killed (Grrrrrrrr!), Windshear, Jubilee and Moonstar were all depowered during M Day.  I also have to ask why almost every mutant on the planet was depowered, except for mostly those that live in or are citizens of the United States?  What's with that?  Nearly every name on the list of the 198 is an American citizen...Is Wanda a U.S. nationalist?

Dana

Quote from: Previsionary on May 20, 2010, 01:06:40 PM
Yes, Firestorm is hearing things and he thinks Jason is saying it, causing "dramatic" and "racial" tension. Well, more tension because from what I've been able to understand, the two characters already have issues between them.

I could be way off, but it appears someone or something is trying to foment more tension between them (some villain has found a way to mentally connect with them and is using it to cause dissent)...Not that I read the book, but that's what I'm getting from that one page.

Dana

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I was always a big fan of Storm...But I thought her marrying the Black Panther was a racial PR stunt (I didn't get it then and I still don't get it)...To me, Storm has gone from a resourceful, capable, contributing member and great leader of the X-Men to spoiled trophy wife of a king...IMHO, the character has suffered because of this marriage...In truth, I don't see how this marriage has helped either character.  I can't say that I care for Storm any longer, when the main focus of her character is that she's now a queen with queenly responsibilities. I'm not saying this is the worst thing to happen to these characters, but in my eyes, this move has done nothing to help them.

Storm and BP have a long history together that dates back to 1980. Would you preferred she married Forge? I would have but he left her in the 90's to be with Mystique of all people.

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I happen to feel a few of the current writers at Marvel write minority characters as stereotypes (BMB being one of them).  

I couldn't agree less. He's transformed Luke Cage from this stereotype into something special. In fact if not for BMB, Luke wouldn't be such a fan favorite right now. As a follower of BMB's work I can't think of one other character he's stereotyped and that's including heavy handedness Jewish with Jessica Jones. Now if you had said Mark Millar, we would be in agreement.

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I also agree with you guys who say new characters of diverse ethnicity need to be created (as opposed to being legacy characters)...Some of my favorite characters of color/ethnicity (whether they are stereotypes or not is up for debate)...Shaman, Talisman and Windshear of Alpha Flight....I was a fan of Jubilee, when she first appeared (I lost interest in her over the years, I'm not sure if it was the way she was written or what)...I was also a fan of some of the New Mutants (Dani Moonstar and Shan/Karma).

Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
Shaman has been killed (Grrrrrrrr!), Windshear, Jubilee and Moonstar were all depowered during M Day.  I also have to ask why almost every mutant on the planet was depowered, except for mostly those that live in or are citizens of the United States?  What's with that?  Nearly every name on the list of the 198 is an American citizen...Is Wanda a U.S. nationalist?

Windshear was white/British, wasn't he? Regardless, this was actually explained. The combined power of Emma and Dr Strange protected most of the people who were at the assault on Wanda in the House of M reality. Furthermore, the mutants who were depowered were either 1) redundant 2) noprofitable (seriously no one cares what color those CC' Excalibur mutants were, they were just dull) or 3) all of the above and either something weird that Morrison created or leftovers from the 90's mutant expansion.

Hrm... Bendis has done Luke a favor, but he "does" stereotype him with all the "yo yo yos" and the constant swearing he now does. But Luke isn't that bad in comparison (especially taking into account he was a blaxploitatious character in the first place) to how Bendis writes Thunderball. You can't be billed as "The Black Bruce Banner," and then be written as a goon with very low comprehension skills. But no, Bendis's problem isn't stereotyping for the most part; it's ignoring continuity and going crazy with his plots that end up on a bland note. Mark Millar, on the other hand, overdoes EVERYTHING. His ego is also way out of whack these days, so I will not talk about him much any longer. I just can't wait to see how he'll out do his defile 'n baby toss scene from Ultimate Avengers 2. *prepares for Old Man Logan 2*

Storm and BP don't have a long history with one another, despite Marvel trying to paint it that way. They have a few appearances together... and a mini that came out in an attempt to make their 1 shared issue during childhood into something more grand and feasible. A lot of effort for very little pay off since BP's books keep getting canceled and Storm is background fodder.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

What legacy character is she supposed to be? The only other Talisman at Marvel that I know of is the Aborigine one from "Contest of Champions" and he was created for that comic specifically, as far as I know.

Quote from: President Raygun on July 19, 2010, 11:02:30 PM

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

What legacy character is she supposed to be? The only other Talisman at Marvel that I know of is the Aborigine one from "Contest of Champions" and he was created for that comic specifically, as far as I know.

She's a legacy in the sense that she is the basically the second Shaman. She only exist to fill her father's shoes and she easily replaced him several times.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I was always a big fan of Storm...But I thought her marrying the Black Panther was a racial PR stunt (I didn't get it then and I still don't get it)...To me, Storm has gone from a resourceful, capable, contributing member and great leader of the X-Men to spoiled trophy wife of a king...IMHO, the character has suffered because of this marriage...In truth, I don't see how this marriage has helped either character.  I can't say that I care for Storm any longer, when the main focus of her character is that she's now a queen with queenly responsibilities. I'm not saying this is the worst thing to happen to these characters, but in my eyes, this move has done nothing to help them.

Storm and BP have a long history together that dates back to 1980. Would you preferred she married Forge? I would have but he left her in the 90's to be with Mystique of all people.

Forge?  No...Nor Bishop or anybody else...I'd rather she remained single and was still leading the X-Men or an X-Men team.  IMHO, Storm was side-lined as an X-Men leader so Quesada's girly-toy Emma could take her place as co-leader.  The only connection Storm had to T'challa from the 80s was an offhand comment about meeting him as a teen, until it was retconned (within the last few years) to be a great romance.  regardless, the marriage was a publicity stunt...Just to get more people of color to read comics.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I happen to feel a few of the current writers at Marvel write minority characters as stereotypes (BMB being one of them).  

I couldn't agree less. He's transformed Luke Cage from this stereotype into something special. In fact if not for BMB, Luke wouldn't be such a fan favorite right now. As a follower of BMB's work I can't think of one other character he's stereotyped and that's including heavy handedness Jewish with Jessica Jones. Now if you had said Mark Millar, we would be in agreement.

Luke under Bendis reads to me as a stereotype (read "street thug"), but that's just the way I see it.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I also agree with you guys who say new characters of diverse ethnicity need to be created (as opposed to being legacy characters)...Some of my favorite characters of color/ethnicity (whether they are stereotypes or not is up for debate)...Shaman, Talisman and Windshear of Alpha Flight....I was a fan of Jubilee, when she first appeared (I lost interest in her over the years, I'm not sure if it was the way she was written or what)...I was also a fan of some of the New Mutants (Dani Moonstar and Shan/Karma).

Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

Sort of, but she was always had different powers and was more powerful than he was.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
Shaman has been killed (Grrrrrrrr!), Windshear, Jubilee and Moonstar were all depowered during M Day.  I also have to ask why almost every mutant on the planet was depowered, except for mostly those that live in or are citizens of the United States?  What's with that?  Nearly every name on the list of the 198 is an American citizen...Is Wanda a U.S. nationalist?

Windshear was white/British, wasn't he? Regardless, this was actually explained. The combined power of Emma and Dr Strange protected most of the people who were at the assault on Wanda in the House of M reality. Furthermore, the mutants who were depowered were either 1) redundant 2) noprofitable (seriously no one cares what color those CC' Excalibur mutants were, they were just dull) or 3) all of the above and either something weird that Morrison created or leftovers from the 90's mutant expansion.

Windhsear is and always was black...Born in Canada, raised in England.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 20, 2010, 02:13:34 AM

Quote from: President Raygun on July 19, 2010, 11:02:30 PM

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

What legacy character is she supposed to be? The only other Talisman at Marvel that I know of is the Aborigine one from "Contest of Champions" and he was created for that comic specifically, as far as I know.

She's a legacy in the sense that she is the basically the second Shaman. She only exist to fill her father's shoes and she easily replaced him several times.

Nope...That is/was not the point of her origin, she was never meant to fill her father's shoes and she is not a shaman, she was meant for another path all together.  Where her father is a mere magic-user who pulls mystical items from his medicine bag...Elizabeth/Talisman is the binder of spirits and is meant to be the world's most powerful opponent to evil magic.

Shaman's real protege/successor is/was Earthmover...A character introduced in Wolverine, but nothing much has really been done with him.

Dana

Ehh....for me, the problem is that I love the original characters, all those guys who give people such a headache today because they're all white.  See, it isn't an issue for me.  I don't particularly care what race a character is, although changing races on established characters offends my sense of order.  What I hate is the bizarre, constantly shifting smoke screen that has been created to try to address these issues of inequality.  You've got constant tension between efforts to, as the quote Prev. provided said, pull in new, more diverse groups of readers, and at the same time maintain the older comic fans who know and love those original characters.  Because of that, there seems to be constant chaos going on under the surface of these two companies.  Either, we're torturing this character who's been around for 60 years because we don't have any good ideas for him or her, or we're replacing them, updating them, or otherwise sweeping the character away in almost negligent gestures.  This is why things like the new Aqualad bother me, and this is why I never really get invested in new characters.  You take a character who you've mistreated for ten or twenty years, then kill them.  Yep...good ending....that makes me REALLY want to see what you've got in store for this new character, who just HAPPENS to be of a different race than the Silver Age hero he's replacing.  Whatever the true motivations for these types of stories, it always makes me wonder if a character I cared about didn't just get erased from existence as an exercise in tokenism.  

Instead, what I want, what I've said for years that I want, is for them to tell decent stories with these original characters, stories that GO somewhere, and then give them endings that they deserve.  You don't have to kill off every character you can to replace them with minorities or what have you.  Instead, what about having them retire, train their replacement, act as a mentor, or just live happily ever after.  For example, (and ignoring for the moment the incredibly bad taste that modern DC continuity leaves in my mouth) let's say that instead of having Ray Plamer's wife go insane and murder one of his good friend's wives, they had gotten back together and Ray had retired to teach, passing the torch to his most brilliant student, Ryan Choi.  I would have been a lot more open to Choi from the very beginning, and with Ray Palmer still very much a part of those stories, it's even possible that people wouldn't have been baying for poor Ryan's blood.  I would have been thrilled to keep reading the stories of him as the Atom.  I was enjoying them anyway, but I was always unhappy with the WAY in which DC shuffled that character into that title.  Such a change would have allowed me to enjoy the book with no qualms.

I feel like the way they try to address the problems created by the issue of their classic characters is just backwards.  Creating completely new characters is extremely difficult in a world where comic sales just aren't very large, and having a hero die in a horrible way so that you can replace him just isn't going to endear you to any of that character's fans.  There's a more sensible way to handle this.

I'm using DC examples because I'm more familiar with their (relatively) recent history than with Marvel's, but I'm sure the same thing applies.  

Well in the case of the Atom I doubt that shuffling off Ray and bringing in Ryan were related as they were about 2 years apart and had no direct story connection.

Regardless, I like the idea of the older hero retiring and training the younger one. Wish it was done more often.
I'm sure there's a good example of this, but it's not coming to me. Batgirl maybe?

One word: Milestone.

I'm going with Benton.  I don't mind older heroes passing the mantle to younger heroes.  I just get tired of the ignominious ways the use to get rid of the older heroes.  Why can't older heroes just ride off into the sunset with their best girl in their arms?  I don't even mind a heroic last stand in a story that matter, but turning them into psychopaths, having them die pointless deaths, or retconning them out of existence just annoy me.  That's one of the main reasons that I don't read comics anymore.  That, and I prefer being able to tell the heroes from the villains without checking who's name is on the cover.

Quote from: Podmark on July 20, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
Well in the case of the Atom I doubt that shuffling off Ray and bringing in Ryan were related as they were about 2 years apart and had no direct story connection.

Regardless, I like the idea of the older hero retiring and training the younger one. Wish it was done more often.
I'm sure there's a good example of this, but it's not coming to me. Batgirl maybe?

Batgirl is definitely doing that to an extent.  Barbara Gordon (re: the original Batgirl) is mentoring the current Batgirl (Stephanie Brown) as well as the previous Batgirl (Cassandra Cain).  Nevermind the headache it took to get there.

Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on July 21, 2010, 02:39:48 AM

Quote from: Podmark on July 20, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
Well in the case of the Atom I doubt that shuffling off Ray and bringing in Ryan were related as they were about 2 years apart and had no direct story connection.

Regardless, I like the idea of the older hero retiring and training the younger one. Wish it was done more often.
I'm sure there's a good example of this, but it's not coming to me. Batgirl maybe?

Batgirl is definitely doing that to an extent.  Barbara Gordon (re: the original Batgirl) is mentoring the current Batgirl (Stephanie Brown) as well as the previous Batgirl (Cassandra Cain).  Nevermind the headache it took to get there.

Legion of Batgirls?  LOL!

I wish someone could write a decent Flash story. The character is in my opinion one of DC's best and it seems like Geoff Johns is the only one who cares enough to write him well and even he sometimes has trouble keeping a plot going. I don't read Flash anymore but I picked up a tpb the other day and it was about aliens who were going to destroy the world unless they could find a human who was faster than one of them, so Wally goes up against them to buy the JLA time. That very concept makes me want to vomit. Super speed is a good power with WAY more uses than just running as fast as possible in a straight line. Wally West is DC's best non-Batman related character, give him some cool stuff to do.

Quote from: BWPS on July 21, 2010, 04:06:16 AM
I wish someone could write a decent Flash story. The character is in my opinion one of DC's best and it seems like Geoff Johns is the only one who cares enough to write him well and even he sometimes has trouble keeping a plot going. I don't read Flash anymore but I picked up a tpb the other day and it was about aliens who were going to destroy the world unless they could find a human who was faster than one of them, so Wally goes up against them to buy the JLA time. That very concept makes me want to vomit. Super speed is a good power with WAY more uses than just running as fast as possible in a straight line. Wally West is DC's best non-Batman related character, give him some cool stuff to do.

Man, that sounds like a bad Silver Age plot!

Quote from: Podmark on July 20, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
Well in the case of the Atom I doubt that shuffling off Ray and bringing in Ryan were related as they were about 2 years apart and had no direct story connection.

Regardless, I like the idea of the older hero retiring and training the younger one. Wish it was done more often.
I'm sure there's a good example of this, but it's not coming to me. Batgirl maybe?

I didn't meant to imply that they offed Ray to bring in Ryan, but his character was very much colored by what they had done to his predecessor.  Unfortunately in the case of Batgirl, Barbra Gordon got shot in the spine.  Also not the ending I'd like to see for her career, although I understand it created some decent stories.

It created a lot of decent stories, character growth, and some essential development AFTER the fact, yes. All it took was a good writer who cared getting to her. :P

Quote from: BentonGrey on July 21, 2010, 04:20:59 AM
Man, that sounds like a bad Silver Age plot!

Weren't they all bad?

Quote from: murs47 on July 21, 2010, 04:26:20 AM

Quote from: BentonGrey on July 21, 2010, 04:20:59 AM
Man, that sounds like a bad Silver Age plot!

Weren't they all bad?

Nah, I've read some great ones, but then there are the rest.

Quote from: BentonGrey on July 21, 2010, 04:22:15 AM
I didn't meant to imply that they offed Ray to bring in Ryan, but his character was very much colored by what they had done to his predecessor. 

Yeah I know what you were saying. I think what I was trying to say is that because comics have largely lacked a singular guiding hand over their history you get a lot of abrupt direction shifts and a lack of overall direction. So it's unfortunate that a new character and book was negatively affected by a older story that wasn't directly connected to it.


What happened to Barbara was terrible, but honestly I love that it happened because it led to the creation of Oracle which is one of my favorite developments in comics. It's a shinning example that even bad stories can lead to good ones.