As many of you know, I'm an English professor at a community college around here (waiting for my wife to finish her doctorate so I can go on and get my own), and I've been teaching composition 101 lately. Earlier in the semester I had two students simply copy and paste two different essays off of the internet and turn them in as their own work. In my undergrad experience, if you were caught plagiarizing, you at least failed the class, and you may have even been thrown out of school. So, I simply assumed that was the case at my institution. However, upon talking to my boss, I discovered that most teachers simply failed them for the assignment and let them stay in the class, if they did anything at all. Talking to my wife, I discovered that this is a pretty common practice, because it can turn into a HUGE headache if the student tries to challenge the accusation. Still, my boss was extremely supportive, and encouraged me to handle it in any way I saw fit. So, I failed those two students and gave my classes real fire and brimstone speeches about cheating.
Well, I just caught two more today, both turning in late papers, both copied verbatim from internet sources. I'm feeling rather disgusted in general that there has been such a preponderance of cheating, and further frustrated because one of the students would easily have passed if he had just written the darn paper himself. I'm obviously going to fail both of them, but I was just wanting to vent, and also wondering what y'all thought about the practice of going easy on cheaters these days. Is there anyone else around here in education that has had to deal with this?
Why bother holding people to standards when we no longer have standards? Society has become so lax on so many things that I am routinely disgusted and offended. Every day I see plenty of examples of "floaters" in the gene pool. I can only wonder just how close we are to collapse, as we've gone too far in the direction of decadence. Mankind is the only species I know of that *routinely* fouls its own nest, as well as doing its business where it eats (or gets its food from).
Ok, that was my own venting on the subject (loosely). :P
As some CYA, I'd recommend that you have it plainly stated what the consequences of cheating and plagarism are in your class. Go over it on the first day of class. Have it printed on the syllabus. Post it on any web page your class has. Make sure you can point to at least two different places it's mentioned so there can be no argument or recourse by them saying "I didn't know". Too many people will try to get away with whatever they can, and you have to sometimes prepare things for the lowest common denominator. Sad but true.
In my college you got a zero on the paper in question, but additional disciplinary action. Basically you could stay, but had to be near angelic afterward. It is an old fashioned Christian college so they had rules on everything from what time to went to bed to when and were you chatted with the girls (and chatting was the absolute limit.)
Of course the reality is, those students who cheat are really cheating themselves, since they are basically not learning the material and therefore setting themselves up to be incompetent professionals who never really achieve much of anything and never get anywhere. It probably won't do much good, but you might want to include that the next time you have to say something on the matter. If there are in school to actually learn and make something of themselves then cheating is the fastest way possible to become a failure. At least if you fail a class or test you have to learn the material again later or make it up on some other way, compensating for your lack of learning and thus achieving something worthwhile.
I worked at a tech school for awhile. Some students compalined that they didn't get their money's worth out of the school, and some threatend to sue. These students were the ones who came in late, if at all, handed in assingments late, if at all, and insisted that, with the amount they (actually, it was usually their parents) were paying, they should be able to attend school at any time they actually saw fit (sometimes Tuesdays), and do assignments in whatever schedule they wanted (never). When they got a job, they would buckle down and do some REAL work, because that's when it counted. School was nothing. They got mad when they were dropped from enrollment when they missed a total of five days (meaning they failed for the quarter, and had to do it over. I don't remeber how many tardies equalled an absence), because attendence wasn't improtant. They figured that they pay the money, they deserved the diploma.
Many of these students also failed to change the words around on plagarized reports they cut and pasted from the internet. And got mad because they were allowed to use the net for research, so why not just cut and paste?
And if they do finally graduate, they don't want an entry-level job; someone with their skills and intelligence should have a high-level job with an office and a lot of people doing work for them. And lots of money and days off. And if they aren't pulling down six bills by the second week after graduation, well, the school took their money under false pretenses and gave them a shoddy education.
But it comes down to this: far too may of today's students feel they are entitled to a passing grade, a diploma, and an exectuve-level job. Entitled!
Why? Well, their lives are not their fault, so somebody owes them.
Of course, my ex-step-mother feels the same way about money, cars, more money, men, lots more money, fine homes, even more money, and the world at large...
I never thought of it in terms of the entitlement mentality, but you are right. That's probably exactly where it comes from.
Which makes it sad, because our wealth was built by self-sufficient men and women that were determined to succeed or fail by their own power. And when they failed, they usually got back up until they finally succeeded.
I had the same problem many times with my students. Some of them would only print the internet page (even with the address and banners). The worst case was a kid who copied a book, complete with figures. When I refused the paper and asked him to made one with his own words, his entire family came to defend the quality of his paper and how "hard" he worked. I had to explain what was "plagiarism" to them. :banghead:
I agree with Daglob's analysis, we have a generation of people who believe they are "too special" to work hard. Everyone needs to make them happy, after all they deserve it just for existing.
A English teacher I know was giving a course about "ethics" and the students had to sign up a list of presence. Then he counted the number of students in the room and he had more signatures than students. In a ethics course... He said to them, "You really need an ethics course!"
Maybe Fox News actually had a point in calling Mr. Rogers an "Evil, evil man" by saying that people have too great an idea of self-entitlement now :P
of course not, but I know what you mean.
Plagiarism is rampant in Korea too... at almost all levels of education (I've had to proofread my girlfriend's brother's doctorate work).
One class (a 1st grade middle school class) was given the homework of writing four or five simple past tense sentences that follow a sequence to describe a fairy tale.
Like, "First Goldilocks... Then she .... Finally she ...."
The majority of students had taken something verbatim from the internet (complete with atrocious grammar and spelling mistakes) and copied it by hand... then allowed their peers to copy it too.
out of 11 classes of 40 students, there were about 5 or six original stories per class and 3-4 internet stories that were copied by everyone else.
Thing was - it was probably more work for them to handwrite the monstrosity than it would've been to be original and write VERY simple sentences like I had asked.
Yeah I gave them all sorts of holy hell speeches too, but I also learned my lesson, this year I've got 17 classes of the same grade - no way I'm assigning them that kind of homework.
Which means, of course, that most of them will never really learn to think on their own, because they essentially fight all attempts to teach them to do so.
And back in the day we used to pass the same notes around saying "make sure you change it" and then 4 people would fail for turning in the exact same paper with the same spelling errors. It was always smarter to just buy the teacher a bottle of pricy booze. Not much has really changed although I don?t know why people always use subjects like this to claim some genetic superiority. Honestly it comes down to kids being spoiled and the education system not being strict enough. Back home we had teachers who would slap the calculator out of your hand or make you double copy all your notes, all the way up to high school.
Benton: I took a class at Umass Boston (I got a translator certificate, hard to tell since I don?t bother with spelling or grammar on forums) and they made me sign a dozen waivers saying that if I plagiarized I would fail and probably be expelled. It felt silly at the time but I'm surprised there are places that are more relaxed.
The school I attend requires students to read and sign anti-plagiarism documents, but even with that, some people think they are clever enough to get away with it. I am also amazed at how simplified some of the English rules have gotten. I am a 40-something returnee trying to recall things I haven't touched in 2 or 3 decades. I expected for students fresh out HS to have that stuff down, and they don't know hardly anything.
Heh, you don't need to be a returnee to college to realize that people, despite their age, know almost nothing about English grammar. Look at all the common mistakes people make all the time when writing or speaking. It's not something we, as a society, have a great grasp on. I suppose it doesn't help that our rules change every year as our language is very flexible.
Tell me about it... I just had the headache of going through the million or so possibilities for the new subjective questions on the English mid-terms.
Try explaining to a 13 year old EFL student how "go to the doctor", "go see a doctor" are ok while "go meet a doctor" or "go to see a doctor" are incorrect.
Do american colleges use turnitin.com ? (i think thast was it.)
It's an anti-plagiarism database the reads your digital files and assigns a percentage of how much of the work is cited, plagiarized etc.
I remember there being a big hoopla about it at my uni, and i didn't have to use it until a few classes in my final year.
Thanks for the commiseration guys. It really does seem like most students I come in contact with have a real sense of entitlement. I really just can't understand their attitudes, but then I was always someone who enjoyed learning on general principle. I've thought a lot about our culture these last two semesters teaching, and while I couldn't point to one specific thing that we're doing wrong, we are certainly raising these generations to be incredibly and willfully ignorant and apathetic. The combination of our culture and our education system is not doing these kids any favors, that's for sure.
We've got such a legalistic society that these kids have too easy of a time of making a professor's life difficult if you actually try and discipline them for intellectual theft and dishonesty. I'm not sure what the answer to this may be, but I do really hate that so many of these people are learning that all they need to do to get ahead in life is be willing to lie, cheat, and steal.
Wish I had seen this earlier. I'm an English teacher too, ESL. Here in China plagiarism is very very high...you may have read about it in recent news. A lot of good students who I have confronted about it claim that they copied because the sentences were "beautiful" and they could not think of anything more perfect or relevant to say. So they wanted to share some beautiful sentences with me. It's touching, but I still give them a 0 and ask them to redo it. Good students will redo it and others won't.
Daglob is spot on about students feeling entitlement. Here it goes from the student all the way up to the family. If they pay their money they expect a diploma with or without work. And...if a student does fail there is the option of slipping a little money to someone somewhere (not me) to get a grade change. Several students come from rich families that just throw money around whenever there is a problem. I've even heard of cases where students demand their parents send them money or they will never return home. What's up with that? My mom would have been like "Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you."
Good heavens, that's terrible stuff, man. You know, I was telling some of my students today, there is a difference between accidentally regurgitating someone else's idea or sentence, and turning in an entire paper that you stole from someone else. Urg.
An update, for those who have been interested in this, the worst of the students I caught cheating is now protesting her grade. Bring it on, I say. I'm debating if I should pursue expulsion because she doesn't have the decency to own up to her misdeeds. <_<
Interesting topic. I actually think that, while cheating may be more prevalent now than in years past, it's mostly because it's easier to do than it used to be. In the past, it would have been almost as much work to hunt around (often in a dusty library) for something relevant to copy than to just do the work oneself. The amount of online material, combined with decent search skills, puts a world of temptation at the fingertips of a student who never has to leave the dorm room.
The issue of whether there is more or less of an entitlement mentality these days isn't entirely clear to me because there is sort of a bimodal distribution out there. On the one hand, there are clearly students who think anything requiring effort is a pain the the rump intended to inconvenience them instead of catering to them as they believe they deserve. Any failure is unfair because they haven't been prepared well enough (ironic given how little effort they will put into preparation), or just because expectations are too high. Those kids are in for a rough time when they enter a world where no one cares whether the amount of work necessary to get the job done is fair to them or not.
One the other hand, there also seems to be a pretty large group of highly motivated students who work hard and go the extra mile, often taking on tasks that I never would have at the time. I was an engineering undergrad and then grad student and still have some vantage point on that world. I see students working on after-school projects (solar vehicles, robotics projects, cool software tools, etc.) that won't benefit them directly in terms of grades and, honestly, won't really translate well into r?sum?-filler, either. I think they do it because they have a passion for it and experience a joy in accomplishing something. They may be a smaller group than the entitlement mentality whiners, but I still find them impressive.
BTW, the "entitled" folks apparently don't even see education as part of what I think of as self-improvement. I mean, who would join a gym and then be angry that they didn't get into better shape without doing any work?
Anyway, I think you are doing the right thing, Benton. Students do cheat themselves when they plagiarize, but they are also hurting other students if they are allowed to get away with it, both by potentially affecting grade curves, but also (and more importantly) by de-motivating others who would have done the work and learned something but who see some cheater getting the same grade with no effort.
BTW, as a grad student teaching assistant, I had to grade lab reports and homeworks for some engineering classes. I usually put in some effort to make sure students knew how to do the assignments, often writing lengthy notes in the margins outlining the proper approach. Most professors I TAed for were pretty lenient on cheating because they often expected students to work together on assignments. It still irked me, though. On homework where A clearly copied B's work, I sometimes corrected A's papers with comments like, "See B's original homework for further help." :P
It occurred to me today that part of the problem can be laid back on parents -- not all of them, but enough. I'm sure it started innocently enough; loving parents who struggled and had to go without certain things when they were growing up, then work hard and try to give their kids everything they need so they don't have to "suffer" through the same hardships. Without knowing how hard it can be to get some things nor having to work for them, it's very easy for that next generation to feel entitled to being able to get what they want.
Add on to that their friends seeing what these other kids are getting, they either feel like they need to have those same things to fit in (peer pressure) or just feel that it's not fair that these other kids have these things and they don't. Other parents are now being pressured/nagged/harrassed/cajoled into providing things for their children that aren't strictly necessary for their proper upbringing, some out of love, some out of a sense of competition (keeping up with the Jonses), and some just because they caved to the incessant whining. It very quickly gets exponentially out of control.
Is it coincidence that much of this started to manifest about the same time that "child psychology" (I used quotations because while some of it is very valid, I feel there's a lot that's either pure conjecture or plain crap) really started to boom, with Dr. Spock as the most recognized name? Parents and society were being told to, essentially, remove all of the obvious negative reinforcement types of parenting (punishing, spanking, and in some opinions, loss of priveledges), give the children what they want, and they will grow up to be happy and well adjusted.
I'm not a follower of legal history, but it seems that not long after this (a generation or so?) is when the large uptick in litigation started. Lawsuits for everything. More and more scandals being reported -- although it can be argued that may be because there's much more of an eye on things like that than in the 50's and earlier, and more reporting gets done, so more will come to light.
I'm not saying that if we beat our kids then everything will be fine. What I am saying is that you can't use the same parenting techniques on every child. Some kids don't respond to spanking. Some don't respond to losing priveledges. Some just need to be talked to. Some need to know that there can be serious negative consequences to their actions. It's all about moderation, and using the right tool for the job. Along with rights, kids need to be taught about responsibilities. I think we do need people that are on the far ends of the view points (liberals and conservatives), to keep an eye on things, but following their views and goals to the letter will only lead to more arguements and false-starts.
I hope I haven't seriously offended anyone with my opinions. I'm sure there will be people that will completely disagree with me. If it's felt that this is too far into politics or other forbidden territory, I will gladly self-edit if asked to. I guess I just had to vent a bit after a Mother's Day weekend of 5 ungrateful step-kids who weren't willing to lift much more than a token finger to show their appreciation, instead staying focused on their own "needs".
This is what happens when parents are no longer allowed to spank their children. They grow up to make Benton's life miserable.
Quote from: murs47 on May 11, 2010, 09:33:28 PM
This is what happens when parents are no longer allowed to spank their children. They grow up to make Benton's life miserable.
It's an obvious plot. I'm sure things will change for the better once he abandons his support for fish boy.
Quote from: murs47 on May 11, 2010, 09:33:28 PM
This is what happens when parents are no longer allowed to spank their children. They grow up to make Benton's life miserable.
Absolutely right! How inconsiderate of their parents. :D
Quote from: Panther_Gunn on May 11, 2010, 10:02:52 PM
It's an obvious plot. I'm sure things will change for the better once he abandons his support for fish boy.
Never! None of your evil commie plots will force me to deny the truth...that Aquaman is awesome! ^_^
I didn't mean that there were no motivated students (and I know that no one said that).
The tech school functioned as a junior college, and for a number of reasons, there seemed to be a lot of loafers there.
Generally, there were four kinds of stundent there: Ones that tried in high school, but couldn't get through social studies, PE, or some other subject, and didn't have the grades to go on to college. They hoped that they would get their gradees up enough to do that. Group 2 were "non-traditional" students, those who wanted to learn something to get ahead in their world-better position at work, or better job, something. Group 3 didn't want to have to go to college and take silly stuff like art, english (but they didn't squawk about technical writing), history, or athletics. They wanted to get the training, and get a job, and get out in the world. Unfortunately, the fourth group is the one that made the most noise and they were the ones who were inconvenienced by the rules and work required. These were often people who had blown off high school getting out with the lowest possible grade point average the school system allowed. Some were secure in the knowledge that they could get into papa's alma mater with just a smile and a wink. When the "old school" refused the pleasure of their company, they decided that they would just "hang out" until something broke. Others just saw school as something for suckers. Once it was over, they could sit back and relax until they found what they were looking for.
Then comes the ultimatum: you live in my house and eat my food you are either going to work or go to school.
Some go to work. Some of these develop an intense hate for work, and the unfairness of life. They might go back to school, but they become members of Group 4. Others revel in it, and don't look back. Others go back to school and become Group 2.
The sad thing is, some people confuse a diploma with knowledge. They don't understand that they don't pay money for a diploma, they pay money for an education. The diploma is the proof that they have one.
My supervisor at the tech school (and a friend for over 20 years) says you and lead a student to knowledge, but you can't make him think.
I'm working on my Bachelor's, will probably never finish, but I am working on it. I work at a High School as well. I read the syllabus of classes that I attend as well the one's of classes that I have students in. I almost always see a section on cheating. Unfortunately, what I don't see very often, is follow through. It sets a bad precedent in my opinion.
(By no means is this post meant to be seen as teacher bashing, I have mad respect for teachers)
At the college I work at, it basically goes:
1st time caught cheating: Prof decides what to do (usually fail the assignment)
2nd time caught cheating: Department chair decides what to do (usually fail the course)
3rd time caught cheating: Dean of students decides what to do (usually expelled)
I'm not sure how strictly it's enforced, though-- my dad briefly taught here, and he got a lot of pushback from his department when he tried to fail a cheater. The student made a stink and the department sided with him.
So, yeah.
My takes:
1) Mind expanding/altering courses are no longer necesary. Advanced math, etymology, critical analysis, ethics, psychology... I took all that in highschool and it would cause you to have a lot of "oh wow" moments.
2) We have allowed ignorance to become cooler than knowlege. It used to be apathy (not caring) but the greatest form of not caring is not even knowing. Want to be cool? Show how ignorant you are about the subject, like it is so beneath you that you would never bother finding out about it.
3) Everyone else is a genius. It is the flipside... all the uncool people think they are geniuses and are so much better than the "cattle" or "normals" or whatever. I dont know how many dumb kids I've spoken to who think we should prevent dumb people from breeding.
4) Patience. Same argument as the entitlement one. A lot of people know what they want, but they refuse to take steps B through Y to get to Z. I had a roomate who smoked tons of pot and talked about how he was going to be ritch like his parents. You know, ignoring the fact that they studied and worked hard.
5) This country needs to go digital. 1, 10, 100, 1000... those make sense. It is easy to calculate in your head and to visualize. Pounds, gallons, letter grades... they are a mess. I have a soft spot for inches, but that is because I worked in a hardware store for some time.
Did you guys hear about Fox News calling Mr. Rogers an "evil, evil man" for giving these current generations a sense of self-entitlement?
Although I think they are way off-base on who to blame I would say that the concept of self-entitlement people have now will be a major problem once the baby-boomers are all in retirement and the aging populations of developed countries lack a workforce.
It's easy to blame things like child psychology, video games and 24 hour access to entertainment as the root of this evil, but we need to look at how to deal with it. These things aren't going away.
blah... I'm just rambling...
Panther Gunn, you are right on about the parents "wanting to provide for their kids what they've never had" thing.
Especially in Korea (and I'd assume in China too, thalaw), it's kind of destroying childhood for some people. For example my gf grew up (early childhood) with an outhouse and a bedpan...and she's only 30! Parents try soooo hard to focus on their child's education that they push the kids too far.
Luckily helicopter parenting here hasn't started involving litigation or legal action towards teachers...yet.
anyway... more rambling... sorry.
But can you really blame the kids? I worked as a substitute teacher in the local school system, and I am amazed at the number of what I called virtual orphans, children whose parents were still alive but were being raised by grandparents and such. If these kids don't think anybody cares, why should they?
Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on May 12, 2010, 05:38:11 AM
But can you really blame the kids? I worked as a substitute teacher in the local school system, and I am amazed at the number of what I called virtual orphans, children whose parents were still alive but were being raised by grandparents and such. If these kids don't think anybody cares, why should they?
Yes.
Don't get me wrong, the way our culture works and the various things these kids have to deal with often gives them an uphill battle, but we are all responsible for our own actions. That doesn't mean that these other problems don't need to be solved, but on an individual level, each and every one of these kids is perfectly capable of pulling his or her own weight. Yeah, some of them have albatrosses around their necks, but everyone's got issues. The ones who can get over themselves and do the work will get something out of their education, but the only real difference is that they
choose to do so.
Daglob, I've become a very big fan of that saying since I've become a teacher. It is so uttelry, utterly true.
Good points all around guys, good points. I agree that the lack of punishment for cheaters is setting some REALLY bad examples, but look at the world we've created. We've got dishonest businessmen, dishonest politician, and dishonest religious leaders....I wonder if the one influences the other, and if so, which direction that influence travels.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 12, 2010, 05:45:02 AM
Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on May 12, 2010, 05:38:11 AM
But can you really blame the kids? I worked as a substitute teacher in the local school system, and I am amazed at the number of what I called virtual orphans, children whose parents were still alive but were being raised by grandparents and such. If these kids don't think anybody cares, why should they?
Yes.
Don't get me wrong, the way our culture works and the various things these kids have to deal with often gives them an uphill battle, but we are all responsible for our own actions. That doesn't mean that these other problems don't need to be solved, but on an individual level, each and every one of these kids is perfectly capable of pulling his or her own weight. Yeah, some of them have albatrosses around their necks, but everyone's got issues. The ones who can get over themselves and do the work will get something out of their education, but the only real difference is that they choose to do so.
Back up, Benton. You can only get so far on the "blame the victim" argument before you have to back up. So, the kids are responsible for being bullied? The kids are responsible for being beat by their parents? The kids are responsible for being told by their teachers that they are losers and will never be worth anything in life? Really? No, REALLY?
The problem IS a two way street, Benton. The culture you speak up hasn't existed since maybe the early 80s and that is being generous. It's definitely gotten worse in the past fifteen years either way. I think in part because the kids' have seen "the system" for the failure it is and have given up on it the way it has given up on them.
And don't feed me any of the predictable arguments. You can't not fairly and honestly shoulder all the blame on the kids in any possible scenario and claim the system as completely innocent. And that is not to say that you personally have done anything wrong, Benton. The way the education system is currently set up, the norm is to treat problems like they don't exist. The results? Things like school shootings, children killing themselves because they are being bullied, kids being killed by the bullies, Columbine. You get the gist.
In the past, teachers have been instructed to ignore problems as have the staff. Therefore, a lot of the kids don't really KNOW how to "deal with it" and "get over it". In a lot of cases, getting over it may not be simple as saying the words. Get over being bullied in first period but when it happens every period and at lunch that becomes something the kid is not inherently equipped to deal with. The problem has gotten a bit better but the ramifications of at least a decade of an education system that turned a blind eye to it are still being felt.
I can rant for hours on this.
Quote from: daglob on May 12, 2010, 02:00:11 AM
My supervisor at the tech school (and a friend for over 20 years) says you and lead a student to knowledge, but you can't make him think.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 12, 2010, 05:45:02 AM
Daglob, I've become a very big fan of that saying since I've become a teacher. It is so uttelry, utterly true.
Good points all around guys, good points. I agree that the lack of punishment for cheaters is setting some REALLY bad examples, but look at the world we've created. We've got dishonest businessmen, dishonest politician, and dishonest religious leaders....I wonder if the one influences the other, and if so, which direction that influence travels.
1) I assume that Daglob meant "can lead" and not "and lead" but I digress.
2) Don't forget dishonest teachers and school administrators. They exist on the high school and college levels and are just as bad of an example. And dishonest media as well. As for the direction the influence travels, most of them run parallel to one another. At best, you could argue that the dishonest academia is the results of the dishonest politician which in turn influenced the dishonest media. The dishonest businessman is arguably running parallel to that when it's actually a dishonest businessman and not an "alleged dishonest businessman" who is being targeted by the other group. And the dishonest religious leader is a rarity and not influenced directly by any of the others.
3) As for leading a student to knowledge and making him think. The past 20-25 years have been spent doing the opposite so why stop now, Daglob. Oh and then you have one bunch of students who have been to taught to think in such a way that they confuse "thinking and knowledge" with "ethics and morals" and lose sight of all of it. A lot of the early bunch of those cretins have since been elected to public office.
Quote from: daglob on May 12, 2010, 02:00:11 AM
The tech school functioned as a junior college, and for a number of reasons, there seemed to be a lot of loafers there.
Generally, there were four kinds of stundent there: Ones that tried in high school, but couldn't get through social studies, PE, or some other subject, and didn't have the grades to go on to college. They hoped that they would get their gradees up enough to do that. Group 2 were "non-traditional" students, those who wanted to learn something to get ahead in their world-better position at work, or better job, something. Group 3 didn't want to have to go to college and take silly stuff like art, english (but they didn't squawk about technical writing), history, or athletics. They wanted to get the training, and get a job, and get out in the world. Unfortunately, the fourth group is the one that made the most noise and they were the ones who were inconvenienced by the rules and work required. These were often people who had blown off high school getting out with the lowest possible grade point average the school system allowed. Some were secure in the knowledge that they could get into papa's alma mater with just a smile and a wink. When the "old school" refused the pleasure of their company, they decided that they would just "hang out" until something broke. Others just saw school as something for suckers. Once it was over, they could sit back and relax until they found what they were looking for.
Then comes the ultimatum: you live in my house and eat my food you are either going to work or go to school. Some go to work. Some of these develop an intense hate for work, and the unfairness of life. They might go back to school, but they become members of Group 4. Others revel in it, and don't look back. Others go back to school and become Group 2.
Is it really fair to group them together? I mean seriously! That's about a 1/2 or so of the problem here. Students get grouped together and then some are written off and some are fed a lot of lies and false hope about what the future holds for them. Is that really how our education system is suppose to run? There is a lot I want to say on this but can't because of certain forum rules. But one of the biggest fallacies of our education system is the inherent grouping of students into "those worth helping", "those who might need helping", "those not worth helping", etc. And don't tell me it doesn't happen, it does. I have seen it firsthand. And that is not even getting into the social cliques.
And people say the kids believe they are entitled to something. Of course they believe that, many of them were taught to believe it by their teachers. And even more were taught it by their parents or by the media. Again, a lot more I want to say here but can't because of certain forum rules.
But honestly, I'm reading through this thread and while the original point about the cheating is wholeheartedly agreed with, there seems to be a lot of "griping about the students" and "blame the students" 100% without any suggestion that there may be something pushing them to that point from your side. I am not say "you as the individual teacher" but "you as a representative of the system". And if it is something that was done individually, then was it something you did of your own volition or something that was a result of the way that you were told to do it.
I didn't mean to come off as a relativist. I definitely believe in teaching kids to take personal responsibility. I was trying to indicate the problem is understandable not that it was excusable.
To back Hamrick's statement about school's acting dishonesty, I worked primarily in learning disabilities, emotional disabilities, and special education, and I saw a lot kids that were misdiagnosed to get a troublesome kid out of the way or for the extra funds that schools get for having x number of kids in those programs.
If we really want academic integrity, we will have to start with the integrity of society as a whole. The kids are just the visible part of the weed. Society is the root.
Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on May 12, 2010, 03:43:44 PM
Back up, Benton. You can only get so far on the "blame the victim" argument before you have to back up. So, the kids are responsible for being bullied? The kids are responsible for being beat by their parents? The kids are responsible for being told by their teachers that they are losers and will never be worth anything in life? Really? No, REALLY?
The problem IS a two way street, Benton. The culture you speak up hasn't existed since maybe the early 80s and that is being generous. It's definitely gotten worse in the past fifteen years either way. I think in part because the kids' have seen "the system" for the failure it is and have given up on it the way it has given up on them.
And don't feed me any of the predictable arguments. You can't not fairly and honestly shoulder all the blame on the kids in any possible scenario and claim the system as completely innocent. And that is not to say that you personally have done anything wrong, Benton. The way the education system is currently set up, the norm is to treat problems like they don't exist. The results? Things like school shootings, children killing themselves because they are being bullied, kids being killed by the bullies, Columbine. You get the gist.
Whoa-ho-ho, back up yourself, Hammick! You've misunderstood me! I never said that the system didn't deserve any blame, nor did I say that the kids have all of the responsibility. What I was pointing out was that there are no "lost causes," and that, ultimately, whether a kid succeeds or fails is up to them. I had issues, just like everybody else, worse than some people's, better than other's, but I wanted to get an education, so I worked hard and got a great one. Some of my closest friends are the children of drug addicts, were abused, or what have you. They all have their own issues, but they all worked hard and broke out of the cycles those things create. Obviously, their parents, the system, or whoever did wrong in doing all the various types of nastiness that has been done to them, and those are things that need to be addressed, but the individuals themselves illustrate just how much a person CAN "get over" or "deal with" and still be successful. I'm not talking about blame as much as I'm talking about responsibility and hope. I'm pointing out that, as bad as things are, if we don't hold the kids accountable for their own actions, then we're only making it worse, because they CAN do it. The key, as it has always been, is getting them to realize that.
Of course, the question could be asked, 'how are you defining success,' and it would be a valid one. One of the looming issues in America's approach to education is that college=success, and even more than that, college is simply what you do after high school. Everyone can do it, and everyone should do it. Those things simply aren't true. A lot of my best students are at Richland because they want to be paramedics, cops, firemen, or what have you, and they are going to be really great in their chosen fields, definitely successes, and without ever having attended a traditional four year college. So, obviously, we need some flexibility when it comes to that kind of definition.
Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on May 12, 2010, 03:43:44 PMIn the past, teachers have been instructed to ignore problems as have the staff. Therefore, a lot of the kids don't really KNOW how to "deal with it" and "get over it". In a lot of cases, getting over it may not be simple as saying the words. Get over being bullied in first period but when it happens every period and at lunch that becomes something the kid is not inherently equipped to deal with. The problem has gotten a bit better but the ramifications of at least a decade of an education system that turned a blind eye to it are still being felt.
Heh, I know what it's like to get bullied. I know what it's like to face the lonely years between 13 and 18 when you don't "fit in," so I don't need to hear about it. Yeah, the system is broken, and I'm pretty sure I've said as much on these boards, and I think some of the other posters in this thread have intimated as much. I completely agree that we are, as a society, failing our students almost completely. I wouldn't blame the teachers quite as strongly, though, as they are often just trying to survive in a system that is crashing around them. I certainly don't envy the teachers who are slogging in the trenches of grades 1-12. They are constantly put in no-win scenarios, and unlike Kirk, they can't cheat. :P
You offhandedly make a point that is a big focus of my classes, though. High school teaches kids NOT to think (for the most part, but there are always exceptions), and I'm stuck trying to pick up the pieces and jumpstart these kids into using critical thinking skills that have never really been challenged.
Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on May 12, 2010, 03:43:44 PM
But honestly, I'm reading through this thread and while the original point about the cheating is wholeheartedly agreed with, there seems to be a lot of "griping about the students" and "blame the students" 100% without any suggestion that there may be something pushing them to that point from your side. I am not say "you as the individual teacher" but "you as a representative of the system". And if it is something that was done individually, then was it something you did of your own volition or something that was a result of the way that you were told to do it.
Keep in mind the original purpose of this thread. I was frustrated with two students and was blowing off steam, of course it is going to be a lot of teachers griping about students. Teachers have to deal with a lot of this kind of stuff, so a certain amount of griping is justified. Of course there are other factors, and my class is designed, in large part, to counteract the weaknesses of a standard high school education. Many of us are aware of that, and I spend a lot of my time trying to make my
students aware of it too, in more than a vaguely angry kind of way.
It's obvious to anyone in education just how broken the system is here in the US. I believe the latest estimates put the number of students graduating high school who were functionally illiterate at 20%. How horrifying is that? How embarrassing as a nation? Still, this is the system that exists, and until we can fix it, we do what we can with what we have.
Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on May 12, 2010, 03:45:27 PM
I didn't mean to come off as a relativist. I definitely believe in teaching kids to take personal responsibility. I was trying to indicate the problem is understandable not that it was excusable.
To back Hamrick's statement about school's acting dishonesty, I worked primarily in learning disabilities, emotional disabilities, and special education, and I saw a lot kids that were misdiagnosed to get a troublesome kid out of the way or for the extra funds that schools get for having x number of kids in those programs.
If we really want academic integrity, we will have to start with the integrity of society as a whole. The kids are just the visible part of the weed. Society is the root.
No worries Tawodi, that post was meant to come off a bit more light-hearted than it did. :P
I have plenty of issues with the actions of institutions, but those issues ultimately come down to individuals. Things like "society" and "the system" are linguistic conveniences, handy in that they allow us to refer to many people at once, but generally too ethereal to actually be accountable or to form a proper subject for improvement. It is individuals who can do things and who have to be responsible for the things they do. Obviously, people carry with them the effects from childhood, role models, etc., and that may account for some bad behavior, but we can't fix the past and it serves us poorly to give someone a pass for their present and future misbehavior because we can link it to some disadvantage they endured in the past. Individuals can learn better behavior, but we can't start by fixing society because it is actual individuals who have to change for there to be any improvement. Setting clear standards and holding to them will alter individual behavior and that, in turn, will benefit society as the behavior becomes more widespread.
Meanwhile, in the context of the present conversation, we aren't talking about extreme things like shootings or suicides. We are talking about students choosing to do something that they know is wrong and then complaining when they have to face punishment for it. For sure there are dishonest people who work in government, businesses, schools, etc. But, this isn't an issue of someone seeing people doing wrong and being confused about what right and wrong are. I don't think a reasonable argument can be made that these students thought that the right way to complete their write-an-essay assignments was to cut and paste an essay they found on the web and turn it in as their own writing. There may be some point in debating the proper punishment (failed assignment vs. failed course, etc.), but I don't see where taking the focus off of the individual offenders will lead to better behavior.
To qualify myself, when I say society I do mean what Stumpy said. Society always starts at the individual level and works up. When I use system, I mean a bureaucracy whether governmental or corporate which operates at the group level and works down. When I point my finger at society, it is because I believe that real solutions come from the bottom up which is society's power. Too further clarify, the individual empowers society and therefore, I try to implore individuals to do the right thing. I have little to know trust for bureaucratic systems and don't look at them for solutions.
We're all venting a little bit.
I never finished college, due to several factors (some of them my own darn fault), and seeing someone abusing (or ignoring) the opportunity to get a better education makes me angry. I feel sorry for the teachers, because they have to put up with all sorts of garbage, I feel sorry for the students who suffer from the actions of others. I feel sorry for the administrators who have to try and be peacemakers between everybody. I feel sorry for the parents who often work long hours and miss out on both the joys and responsibilites of raising children. I even feel a little sorry for the "group fours", because one day they are likely to get hit with a hefty dose of realism, and they are not going to know how to handle it.
And I honestly can't offer any real solutions to remedy the situation.
Oh, and about bullies: the problems with schools ignoring that goes back at least to 1962.
Hamrick, who exactly should Benton hold responsible for cheating the class?
This isn't about fault, it's about responsibility. I had a lousy childhood in a lot of ways, but that doesn't give me a pass on being a responsible adult.
The point is that people MUST be held accountable for their actions or the whole society falls apart... like it's in the process of doing. Doesn't matter if they were "never taught better" or had lousy childhoods. Somewhere, sometime, most people get the message that there are rules to be followed -- even if they never bother to find out what they are.
I would agree that there needs to be a measured response. The best thing is to let the students know up front what the rules are and what the consequences are for breaking them. If that hasn't been done, then you need to give them a second chance, explain the rules, and THEN enforce them.
Quote from: BlueBard on May 13, 2010, 03:32:39 PM
Hamrick, who exactly should Benton hold responsible for cheating the class?
This isn't about fault, it's about responsibility. I had a lousy childhood in a lot of ways, but that doesn't give me a pass on being a responsible adult.
The point is that people MUST be held accountable for their actions or the whole society falls apart... like it's in the process of doing. Doesn't matter if they were "never taught better" or had lousy childhoods. Somewhere, sometime, most people get the message that there are rules to be followed -- even if they never bother to find out what they are.
I would agree that there needs to be a measured response. The best thing is to let the students know up front what the rules are and what the consequences are for breaking them. If that hasn't been done, then you need to give them a second chance, explain the rules, and THEN enforce them.
My response was more to later things brought up than to the initial issue of cheating. No one is saying that it wasn't the student's decision to cheat. However, the question of what made that decision to cheat seem like the right thing to do at the time merits looking at even if it is not with the student directly. If you have a class full of 26 kids and only one of them cheats and does so repetitively then there is probably an outside fact influencing that action should be addressed. That's only an example but it's a situation that I have seen happen.
As for the issue of responsibility, one can only be responsible for their own actions not the actions of another person. Surely you understand that. Well, I assume you do.
Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on May 13, 2010, 07:50:17 PM
As for the issue of responsibility, one can only be responsible for their own actions not the actions of another person. Surely you understand that. Well, I assume you do.
Ultimately, yes. I'd say there are other levels of responsibility too, but ultimately everyone has to deal with the consequences of their own actions.
As a father, I am responsible for my children. And you can be sure that I would be held responsible for certain things they might hopefully never do. Break a neighbor's window, for example. I would have to pay for it. If I fail to pass some of that responsibility over to my child, well, there are consequences for that, too. And I'd be partly to blame for them. My job as a father is to teach them how to be responsible.
Benton, I can certainly understand your indignation over this. It may be too late to keep that indignation out of it, but try to think of this as an opportunity to teach something worthwhile. It may not be in the course syllabus, but it's probably more valuable.
Yes. New research in education teaches consequences rather than punishment. Consequences should be in line with the violation. For example a student who is caught cheating would have to go through some training about not cheating on tests instead of receiving a zero tolerance punishment. Each violation should be seen as an opportunity to teach rather than punish.
I give my students a zero, but I also give them the option of doing the assignment again plus giving me a written statement about what they did wrong.
Quote from: BlueBard on May 14, 2010, 05:43:01 AM
Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on May 13, 2010, 07:50:17 PM
As for the issue of responsibility, one can only be responsible for their own actions not the actions of another person. Surely you understand that. Well, I assume you do.
Ultimately, yes. I'd say there are other levels of responsibility too, but ultimately everyone has to deal with the consequences of their own actions.
As a father, I am responsible for my children. And you can be sure that I would be held responsible for certain things they might hopefully never do. Break a neighbor's window, for example. I would have to pay for it. If I fail to pass some of that responsibility over to my child, well, there are consequences for that, too. And I'd be partly to blame for them. My job as a father is to teach them how to be responsible.
But as a father, would you hold your child responsible for something that they had not responsibility for. For example, if the neighbor's kid shoved your kid down then would you asked your child what he did to to cause to the neighbor's kid to do that thus assuming your child is at fault. If your child did not provoke the neighbor's kid then how exactly is he dealing with the consequence of his own action?
This is the mindset of some people. Even the victim is somehow at fault and thus are not the victim but rather suffering the consequence of their actions. And in some cases, it does extent to child raising.
Hamrick,
Not sure why you are getting so defensive and agitated about this.
First off, unless you're really out to pick a fight may I ask that you dial it back a little? This thread is not a personal attack against you.
Second, there is nothing in common with your scenario of blaming one child for something another one did and people caught cheating. The first is the result of an unwarranted conclusion and the second is based on hard evidence.
As a father, I can say unwarranted conclusions are certainly one of those things that happens. It's an occupational hazard. As a parent of four boys, I usually only see the tail end of some argument or fight. I can't read their minds to find out why they did what they did or who did what. It can be very difficult to sort out exactly what happened and you just have to make the best decision you can on how to handle it. Sometimes you make the wrong and unfair decision. You hardly ever know whether you handled it the right way or not. But you can't always just let it go.
Quote from: BlueBard on May 14, 2010, 06:12:13 PM
Hamrick,
Not sure why you are getting so defensive and agitated about this.
First off, unless you're really out to pick a fight may I ask that you dial it back a little? This thread is not a personal attack against you.
Second, there is nothing in common with your scenario of blaming one child for something another one did and people caught cheating. The first is the result of an unwarranted conclusion and the second is based on hard evidence.
As a father, I can say unwarranted conclusions are certainly one of those things that happens. It's an occupational hazard. As a parent of four boys, I usually only see the tail end of some argument or fight. I can't read their minds to find out why they did what they did or who did what. It can be very difficult to sort out exactly what happened and you just have to make the best decision you can on how to handle it. Sometimes you make the wrong and unfair decision. You hardly ever know whether you handled it the right way or not. But you can't always just let it go.
No one is taking this as a personal attack that I know of. I've tried to be very careful with my words no matter how passionately I may feel about a topic. So, maybe you are misreading my intentions just a bit. I am merely raising questions based on the comments made by various people here, including yourself. The nature of the questioning goes back to the exchange between Tawodi Osdi and Benton and not about the cheating itself. So be aware of what I was originally commenting on, BB, which was not the original post. Benton was talking about a community college where he teaches whereas Tawodi Osdi was referring to was either a middle or high school environment.
And while the conversation started about cheating, it has moved well beyond that due to some of the posts in the thread. In particular, the comments in the posts that I was responding to, but more importantly as to the reasons why the problem exists and what other social problems does it highlight. For example, some kids don't really see it as a big deal if they cheat or not. They are usually more upset that they got caught than shamed by what they did to begin with. Having said that, there are a lot parental child situation that take the "unwarranted conclusions" from an occupational hazard to a modus operdi. And the kids in those families are more likely to be okay with cheating, again going back to a lack of any sort of shame or developed self-respect.
I actually have some respect for students who download an essay and rewrite it to make it better(at least for themselves). But not even bothering to modify it a bit is just stupid. Stupid people deserve to fail. It's part of what defines them as stupid people.
I have heard of situations where people felt the need to cheat because their deadline felt impossibly short. But in many cases that was because they didn't start on time. Such as the old standby of being told at the beginning of the semester that you had to turn in a paper. Then you have a few students who don't bother even doing an outline until the last week.
Being a high school senior, I regret to inform you that things don't appear to be getting any better. Teachers catch students cheating, but instead of failing them they simply deduct 5 points. Its really bad in senior classes. Teachers don't care as much as the students due. And while I do not believe that all teachers don't care, the great majority of them are fed up with their students to the point they don't bother fighting against the downwards trend towards content with mediocrity. It's quite sad
(and I go to Kempner high school. You have heard about it in the news lately...)