Freedom Reborn

So I was thinking, it feels like the party is starting to wind down a little bit and the people who regularly put out content are starting to dwindle (thank god some of the best still skin/mesh/mod). Still there is a small revival in interest for Irrational Games, superheroes and of course Freedom Force. A lot of this is thanks to steam.
So I was wondering: maybe the community should get together and build a "one stop" mega mod for new players. I mean I see huge mods all the time for Civilization and other games... we should put a 1 or 2 gig "mega mod" up on a trusted file website.

Objective
1) Create a mega mod that makes it so that noobs don?t walk away from fear of learning how to merge files and track down the characters they want. Yes, we did it, and we loved it, but this is 2010.
2) Honor the best (and the rest) of the freedom force community and try to get in a little something from creators big and small.
3) Create some buzz, get it reviewed, give people a reason to buy the game. Like ?well, it is kind of old but this one mod makes it totally worthwhile?.

Who would participate?
Volunteers of 3 types: the enthusiastic ones, the ones who already said "use any of my stuff in a mod so long as you credit me" and invite some of the best who we are not sure about.

What it should contain:
FFX
EZFX
Some community FX, attributes and voice packs. (all merged of course)
Several of the best community rumble room maps.
Several of the best community EZSCRIPT games.
Liberty Bay and alternate Freedom Force (modern, evil, remixed, etc.) characters baked in.
50+ must have marvel skins WITH hero file (important heroes, villains and teams) (up for debate)
50+ must have DC skins WITH hero file (important heroes, villains and teams) (up for debate)
A few dozen alternative skins like Hellboy, Invincible and so on. (up for debate)
Every AVATAR that consents to show up.
Donated original characters and teams.
Custom backgrounds featuring community credits (i.e. behold Afghan Ant! Behold Dr. Mike2000!)

Concerns
1) Litigation: honestly I feel like that day has come and gone, cease and desist letters don?t go out anymore and most mod communities are doing whatever they want. We should too. Still this can be avoided by releasing all copywritten material as expansion packs, exes with the needed hero files, skins and meshes.
2) Swiping: absolutely no material from creators who might not want to distribute. For example (to name a name) we would not include a single IPS skin or FX unless we have his approval in writing.
3) Workload: Hopefully a lot of what we want to do is already done. I mean we could break into the house of one of our members and copy his ?pefect? build. Still we could debate on content as a group, have an expert merge the important files, have one of our talented artists build some wallpapers for in between loading screens and ultimately upload it to a free host that deals with this sort of thing. I think we could easily get this done in 6 months since no new code, no new missions, no new anything tedious is required.

Expansion Packs

Make instal files with every skin, mesh and hero file needed for teams like The X-Men, The Avengers, JLA and also originals like The Strangers or some of the NPI superteams.
THOUGHTS?

How I would like to contribute:

Hero files. I'm no USAgent but I follow his style and pride myself in building complex, balanced and creative versions of heroes.
Liberty Bay: I think the only skins built by me not remade by experts like Unkleman are Goo and Ironhyde. Feel free to use them.
Random skins: I've got some original heroes and villains, some Marvel and DC skins and my Avatar.

ONLY CAVEAT: I currently work 70 hours a week (no joke) so my time might be as limited as my talents. As usual I'm here trying to recruit and organize, which is easy compared to real work, but I hope the idea catches on.

This is the thing every newcomer has been asking for, and i couldn't agree more. The all argumetn that looking for bits and bits of work make it exciting and more respectful of the creator is becoming really old. The truth is, i don't own that much non-mainstream skins and mesh, just because tracking them down is such a pain, and looking for a [insert mainstrem creato's name here] version is so much quicker and easier.

I believe the community ha decided long ago and engraved in stone that "compilation" mod were bad for the community of creator, i can only hope they'll change their mind when reading your project, because this could very well be a new era for the game.

I want to be sure, but we won't try to include everything right? just the most "common" request of newcomers that they expect in mod (a superman there, a spiderman here, a few new maps and a few original characters) and the "basics" that we give to every newcomer (FFX, EZFX)? it reaaly shouldn't be too big to give the new player the envy to search for more.

This could actually be a great publicity stunt for creator. Could we had a script to have a "If you liked this map/character/fx/mission, go check XXXX's website for more of his amazing work!" show up somewhere in this mod?

Anyway, i give full moral support,since i can't really give anything else. Well, word-of mouth when it's released, but that's about all i can do.

This comes up every now and again, and Ive floated the idea to some people of an extended FFX with some of the harder to implement stuff like voice packs and maps. But when you get into including mods, skins & meshes, and hero files, you cross that line into creator issues. Some are ok with including their things. Some aren't. Some are fundamentally opposed to big "collection" packs (Remember the DCUG fiasco?) and some aren't. Then there is the whole preferences issue. Who decides what the 50 essential skins/meshes are? One persons favorite is not going to be another's. And how does that make those creators who's contributions aren't deemed essential feel?

I think a smaller more technical collection is a good idea, but I just dont see including the creative personal stuff (character/mod based content) as being a viable idea.

Quote from: GogglesPizanno on March 18, 2010, 04:03:09 PM
I think a smaller more technical collection is a good idea, but I just dont see including the creative personal stuff (character/mod based content) as being a viable idea.

That was kind of what I was thinking, like it would rock to have superman or spidey automatically in the game but it is more important to not have to mess with FX, powers, voices and maps which is what really kills new players (and me after all these years). I do agree that art (skins, meshes) should be secondary to coding, fx, attributes, tribute art (loading screens) and the inclusion of Liberty Bay and alternate characters within the irrational universe.

Still I hope the idea of installers catches on, like imagine how cool it would be to download Afghan Ants "nextwave" team knowing that everything you need is there and for him to know that you will have the FX and powers needed because you are using this mod.

And I hope people understand that years ago I might have been opposed to a compilation mod, but at this point in the game I honestly think it might be the best thing for the community. And yeah, if somebody wants a mesh that is not distributed because of the creators wishes, he can find it elsewhere. This project is for the last people standing who want to leave something amazing behind.

The thing that never crosses anyone's mind when they bring this project up on its interval schedule is the file size this project would end up being (several gigs, which kinda eliminates how useful it'd be and who would use it) and who would host it. And regardless of how "old" the argument about respect may be getting to some people, that doesn't eliminate the need to get and show such respect to the people that provided for the game freely. You never know what situations could arise when you don't do such a thing.

Quote from: Previsionary on March 18, 2010, 04:11:31 PM
The thing that never crosses anyone's mind when they bring this project up on its interval schedule is the file size this project would end up being (several gigs, which kinda eliminates how useful it'd be and who would use it) and who would host it. And regardless of how "old" the argument about respect may be getting to some people, that doesn't eliminate the need to get and show such respect to the people that provided for the game freely. You never know what situations could arise when you don't do such a thing.

Actually I did bring all that up, in my first post. People (especially "kids these days") download huge mods for other games, if we put it on File Planet (ONLY an example, I dont remember if they have a good reputation) It would get downloaded much like the giant Civ 4 mods with thousands of doanloads or the 2 gig Fallout 3 weapon compilations. It would be useful to peole with a fast internet conection, which is a big chunk of people these days. I say 1 gig is not exagerating if we stick to FX, swaps, custom objects, maps and such instead of Meshes and Skins.

And as for participation, yeah, I've said a few times it is for the willing. I'm willing. Hopefully you are willing. Hopefully some of the best out there are willing. Honestly we just need 5 or 10 things to make something special, like PFX 1.2 posted on your site for example.


And I know the arguments and past attempts, if you click on my name you will see "Date Registered:  August 22, 2004, 07:27:06 AM "

I just hope things have changed, or that a small group of people at least have.

I think that there are some really exciting mods going on at the moment with Patriot City Tales and the Amazanauts as just 2 examples.

Patriot City Tales would be great either as a lead-in to the FFv3R campaign or an extension of the FF1 mod for 3R.

Actually, now that I think about it, it would be kind of cool to combine Son of Customforce-X with Patriot City Tales...

I've still got my Marvel/DC/Red Circle Crossover mod on the blocks.

Benton is taking a break from DCUG but I presume he'll get back to it.

so what would it be mainstream, mixture avs

and if it's avs then thats a whole new can of worms on what ones get used and how

First off, feel free to incorportate FFX however you like. Ditto with the Strangers, H.I.V.E., Challengers and anyone else I've ever created for Freedom Force.
A link to Fundament Zero would be cool, of course. :)

Now, can this be broken down at all?

The hardest to install pieces are voicepack, FX and other things that modify .DAT files. This would be the base pack.

Characters can be incorporated in separate packs as hero files, skins and meshes assuming they dont use FFX power swaps, I think.
FFX customisations can be sitting there in the main install waiting for them.

This could make hosting a bit easier - have a basic package and then a group of character packs that clip into it.

With hosting large files, torrents are always an option too.
I think character/herofile/ezscript expansion packs would be the best way to go too. with a main install of FFX, FX, Maps and Voicepacks.
So I guess for starters we need permission from various factions. I'll try to install CQ's and Sledhammer's voicepacks to my main instal first to see how easy that is.

Well, I still fear for the coming apocalypse when someone objects to something included and everything goes all free for all battle lines again...

Quote from: GogglesPizanno on March 18, 2010, 11:57:25 PM
Well, I still fear for the coming apocalypse when someone objects to something included and everything goes all free for all battle lines again...

Yeah, for now I'm envisioning only active members who wish to participate to avoid that. Last thing I want is to use a skin and for somebody who has not been on the forum for 8 years to come up and say "well that eyeball is actually kitbashed from one of my skins, SHUT IT DOWN!". Let's keep it 99% within active members.

Quote from: DrMike2000 on March 18, 2010, 11:27:01 PM
First off, feel free to incorportate FFX however you like. Ditto with the Strangers, H.I.V.E., Challengers and anyone else I've ever created for Freedom Force.
A link to Fundament Zero would be cool, of course. :)

Now, can this be broken down at all?

The hardest to install pieces are voicepack, FX and other things that modify .DAT files. This would be the base pack.

Characters can be incorporated in separate packs as hero files, skins and meshes assuming they dont use FFX power swaps, I think.
FFX customisations can be sitting there in the main install waiting for them.

This could make hosting a bit easier - have a basic package and then a group of character packs that clip into it.

Seeing you post is a huge vote of confidence. Yeah, I was hoping we could have as much already made as possible including some some special attacks with custom parameters for custom characters and some swaps and so on. One example is that sniper rifles and melee cant reach too far but they can be modified in the edit tool to have custom ranges, so as long as we make a bunch of those powers and recycle them with custom characters that will work great. I'm thinking that I care less and less about it being a one stop for all characters and more of it being a platform for custom instal files of teams. Glad you like the idea and I would love to eventually incorporate The Strangers, it is one of the first teams I build every time I instal the game. And yeah, FFX is the first brick of any mod and hopefully we can do something ingame that sends people to download some of the amazing fundament zero mods.  My thoughts is that this mod will be like the "small world" ride, it is no substitute for traveling around the world but should make you curious.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 18, 2010, 09:40:33 PM
so what would it be mainstream, mixture avs

and if it's avs then thats a whole new can of worms on what ones get used and how

My thoughts is lets keep things as un-controversial as possible. On the other hand you are a killer skinner so if you want to donate some avs and originals that would rock and we could do a pack later with some of those great bat villains you do and other stuff.

Detourne: I think if we do include a lot of voice files we need to give them generic names like "male - norse" for thor and so on. Otherwise anything we can get will help. I've realized that meshes, fancy maps and voice files are the only things that take up mad space, the larges (ffvt3r) fx packs and mods based on scripts are tiny.

if it's a set story with avs and such if people can come up with a decent and even story its a good idea

if it's basically just a giant zip with every ones work then its a bad idea and minefield of a one <_<

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 19, 2010, 12:29:24 AM
if it's a set story with avs and such if people can come up with a decent and even story its a good idea

if it's basically just a giant zip with every ones work then its a bad idea and minefield of a one <_<

As much as I loved the Forum Battle Royale games way back, I'm seriosly thinking just Avs from people who are interested as one more layer of Freedom Reborn personalization. If people dont like the idea we proceed with the basics but I doubt anyone wants to start scripting another campaign they will never finish. Again though, not just one big zip of everyones work no matter how many times I say it... people who are willing to donate will donate. This is not the "grab everyones work without their consent and distribute it" project. This is not the "redistribute Texas Jack and IPS" project. It is a way to put out a stable and super complete version of the game for new players that happens to have a thick layer of FREEDOM REBORN tribute as icing and the promise of easy to instal expansion packs.

I dont mean to sound frustrated but it is like people are arguing with the idea of faceless, nameless theft of art as opposed to a lasting legacy for creators who choose to donate some of their already published work. Maybe I just did not make myself clear in the previous posts but I dont want anything that cant be traced to a person happy with what we are doing. Then again I feel like there is an institutional distrust against this sort of project, even if it is by people who have made stuff for the game since day one.  Still I see no difference between this and aother x-men mod that uses custom fx, maps and skins/meshes by other people. Just this one has less (no) story and more credit for creators.

Maybe I should explain why I decided to do this project. Two reasons:

1) I posted screenshots of the Ultimates fighting The Authority on a comics forum and people got psyched but when they asked "if I buy the game how do I do this" I had to say "let me get back to you". You know, lots of steps involved for new gamers.

2) I mod for Fallout 3. Some of my humble mods have been incorporated, expanded and improved as part of two of the largest game overhaul mods. And honestly... I'm thrilled. Not to be in the credits (which I am) or to have links to my other work in something popular or any of that... it is to see little things I did flawlessly connected, heck, improved, as part of a larger whole. I am not a great skinner or mod maker, but I've skinned for freedom force probably since 2002 or 2003 and lost things forever when some of the first sites whent down. I've never felt like my stuff is a work of art, just me being clever and then I get psyched when somebody else finds use for it. Maybe that is why I'm casual about redistribution of my work, that and the fact that everyone who has done sone has been extremely generous with me (in terms of crediting me and asking for my permission) but I want to get my one or two chunks into something great for new and old players.

Well, I'm all for putting whatever we can in the hands of new players.  One of my major goals with my own work (jumbled, delayed, or messy as it may be) is to try to encourage new players to discover this game and join our community.  Obviously, we've seen the results of misunderstandings about big packs with my own efforts, as has already been mentioned, but I'd like to think that we could manage to create SOMETHING that would be acceptable.  It would be nice if communication and openness would solve that kind of problem, but from my own experience, it simply doesn't.  People are remarkably insulated from information that might seem like common sense to you when you're actually involved in a project.  I posted about what I was going to do more or less constantly for three years before I ever released anything, but many people still had the wrong impressions of my project.  That being said, you are absolutely free to include anything of mine in any kind of pack, but since my work is mostly mods, you'd have to check with the creators of the art assets included.  I'm too busy with a thousand projects of my own to take any kind of leadership role with something like this, but I might be able to help out some.  I think putting together a tech pack would at least be a good start.

Also, as YL pointed out, the DCUG is still alive (on life support maybe, but still alive), and while I have been "taking a break," I've also been working on it a bit here and there.  A master of EZScript has been helping me test it and overcome the odd bugs I got with the last campaign, but since I haven't heard from him in a long while, I'm debating simply releasing it unfinished.

Another also, I've been thinking about and plotting a project that I hoped would grow into a community project for quite a while now.  It wouldn't really be anything like this, as it would just be a mod, but I should probably go ahead and get something presentable together.  I'm actually looking forward to getting several of my smaller side projects out so I can pack them all up together, in much the way you suggest.

I offer my support to this, but I am wary about the potential blowout. I don't think that should stop us from going ahead with it, but we are gonna have to be super cautious not to step on any toes. On the bright side, I don't think anyone in the community would get insane about it if it did anger someone, because we all saw what happened last time.

We need a contract of some kind, maybe? Well, that is dumb because what are we gonna do if someone starts up a fuss, sue them in internet court?

Quote from: BentonGrey on March 19, 2010, 04:22:15 AM
Well, I'm all for putting whatever we can in the hands of new players.  One of my major goals with my own work (jumbled, delayed, or messy as it may be) is to try to encourage new players to discover this game and join our community.  Obviously, we've seen the results of misunderstandings about big packs with my own efforts, as has already been mentioned, but I'd like to think that we could manage to create SOMETHING that would be acceptable.  It would be nice if communication and openness would solve that kind of problem, but from my own experience, it simply doesn't.  People are remarkably insulated from information that might seem like common sense to you when you're actually involved in a project.  I posted about what I was going to do more or less constantly for three years before I ever released anything, but many people still had the wrong impressions of my project.  That being said, you are absolutely free to include anything of mine in any kind of pack, but since my work is mostly mods, you'd have to check with the creators of the art assets included.  I'm too busy with a thousand projects of my own to take any kind of leadership role with something like this, but I might be able to help out some.  I think putting together a tech pack would at least be a good start.

Also, as YL pointed out, the DCUG is still alive (on life support maybe, but still alive), and while I have been "taking a break," I've also been working on it a bit here and there.  A master of EZScript has been helping me test it and overcome the odd bugs I got with the last campaign, but since I haven't heard from him in a long while, I'm debating simply releasing it unfinished.

Another also, I've been thinking about and plotting a project that I hoped would grow into a community project for quite a while now.  It wouldn't really be anything like this, as it would just be a mod, but I should probably go ahead and get something presentable together.  I'm actually looking forward to getting several of my smaller side projects out so I can pack them all up together, in much the way you suggest.

I was looking forward to hearing from you since you are kind of making the Ring Saga (I mean like the opera, although Lord of the Rings comes to mind too) of mods. This big, epic all encompasing work. Honestly part of why I thought of this project is because you havent been able to publish yet so I was thinking "If we do the same thing without a plot we might be able to finish it quickly and also scrap any controversial content". I mean the only fatal flaw of Freedom Force is that making your own missions is time consuming and the time it takes has killed more projects than anything else. But also since no character will be essential (there is no plot) we could drop ANY objectionable skin fron the list in 2 seconds.

But yeah, I would be thrilled to see a tek pack. All the great things people have done that require work (fx, maps and so on) and some Freedom Reborn flavor (Liberty Bay, some Avs, some originals, some new loading screens).

Quote from: lugaru on March 19, 2010, 03:15:34 AM
...but I dont want anything that cant be traced to a person happy with what we are doing.

And that's the key quote. If you don't want your work distributed in this way then don't donate it to the project. But then don't go later on, after the release, and complain that it doesn't contain a variety of artists' work.
The expansion pack idea is a good one. Maybe the Main release could be in packs too. If someone isn't interested in Voice Packs, they wouldn't have to download that part of it. Meshes, Voice Packs and FX would be the biggest items and should probably be made as separate downloads from the main pack of the DAT, Script, and Hero Files.
I can donate some time doing some basic skoping and scripting and hero files.

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 19, 2010, 01:50:16 PM

Quote from: lugaru on March 19, 2010, 03:15:34 AM
...but I dont want anything that cant be traced to a person happy with what we are doing.

And that's the key quote. If you don't want your work distributed in this way then don't donate it to the project. But then don't go later on, after the release, and complain that it doesn't contain a variety of artists' work.
The expansion pack idea is a good one. Maybe the Main release could be in packs too. If someone isn't interested in Voice Packs, they wouldn't have to download that part of it. Meshes, Voice Packs and FX would be the biggest items and should probably be made as separate downloads from the main pack of the DAT, Script, and Hero Files.
I can donate some time doing some basic skoping and scripting and hero files.

That might be one of the keys to success: donations. If you want to participate, donate. If you don't want to participate, then don't.

Donation is the best nation. And since we are donating electronic things it is like bringing all your books to the salvation army but still having them at home. I love the digital age.

As for separate voice: there is only one way it would work, which is as something you instal on top of the main mod. We are trying to avoid merging. Still this would make a HUGE difference in size, voice files are bulky but talk it being worth it, I love them. Without voice files well FX are tiny (I swear that all FX ever created for FFVT3R would be less than 100 meg, and we probably are just going to use 50 megs worth) and FFX core is tiny and MOST maps are tiny (I dont think we will include MARVEL NY, hahaha). Rumble room scripts are also tiny. I'm just thinking another 100 to 500 megs of mesh/skin art.

Heck, even if it does not work out you have no clue how much fun I'm having just engaging the community in this conversation.

My question is who would you consider some of the best to include because that could open a whole new debate that some people would get truly angry about.  I've seen it before is why I bring it up.

-DJ
"Yes, I'm still lurking...now go away or else you won't see a skin from me again!"

Quote from: Deaths Jester on March 19, 2010, 03:25:28 PM
My question is who would you consider some of the best to include because that could open a whole new debate that some people would get truly angry about.  I've seen it before is why I bring it up.

-DJ
"Yes, I'm still lurking...now go away or else you won't see a skin from me again!"

I consider myself one of the worst and I'm including myself. Honestly I want anyone who has something people want... the problem is that the debate does keep going back to the artists (skin/mesh people). Who are the best? Very subjective, I mean PODMARK is one of my alltime favorite skinners because he seems to read my mind when it comes to his project choices. Still I'm using "the best" in the context of celebrating our artists, scripters and techies. I'm not handing out oscars or awards, just setting up an art exhibit with hopefully something for all tastes.

Quote from: Deaths Jester on March 19, 2010, 03:25:28 PM
My question is who would you consider some of the best to include because that could open a whole new debate that some people would get truly angry about.  I've seen it before is why I bring it up.

-DJ
"Yes, I'm still lurking...now go away or else you won't see a skin from me again!"

Well, first you'd have to see who wants to donate. Find out who is donating what and if there are doubles, or triples of a certain contribution then most likely the friendly people donating will concede to each other to avoid stepping on each others' toes. Even then, after the main release, people who didn't get to contribute all of what they wanted, can make an expansion that adds their own content.
People donating will (should) know that they can't have every character use their skin or mesh. If there are 50 characters being made and 10 people donating meshes, then let those people choose 5 of their meshes each to donate for various characters.

I understand the want for minimizing merging, but isn't that what people would have to do any with expansion packs? Also, you could include the dat and files in the main release that includes all FX and sounds, but have the actual sound files and FX files in a separate download (You're right the FX probably won't be that big and can be included in the main release). That way there's no merging of dat files and the .wav files get unzipped to the correct directory to be installed.

I think that donation would take care of a LOT of problems.  I actually think putting together a "basic DC" and "basic Marvel" pack of donated material is an excellent idea.  After all, I won't be getting around to MUG anytime soon!  If we have doubles, why not include doubles!  Also, we're missing something fairly obvious in terms of size.  Why not have one jumbo pack, and several smaller sub-packs.  If we're hosting this thing someplace free, who cares!  People can download the big one if they have space, or the little ones if they just want a specific thing.  The key, as someone pointed out, would be to make all the pieces fit together, which would be easy enough.  Just design it as a jumbo pack, and then chop it up.  It won't affect the game at all if it references sound files that aren't there, you simply won't have them play.  Also, I don't know about Prev., Cat, JJ, or the others, but I think it might be a good idea to put together an Irrational adventure pack to go with this, including, as some have suggested, Liberty Bay, PCT, and others.  I know several other FF projects are being developed right now.  That might be fun!

I'll post about the DCUG in the mod forums, and I may have something else to contribute to this discussion next week or so.

As someone who wasn't around for the "incidents" people are referring to and only knows what I've been able to read between the lines for months I don't get why it would be that hard to get content donated. Isn't as simple as an email to the creator? If they want to be included then they can be included, if not, say thanks for your time and move on. Why would there be hard feelings about that? As someone who is creating content (who also consider's himself sub-Podmark level), if someone asked for my stuff I would be first, honored and second, just say "as long as I get a credit for what I did you can take it". Maybe I'm different but as soon as I release something I've done I consider it gone. If people want to kittbash or whatever, I don't care as long as there is a readme that says what I did originally. If no wants to include my content that's fine too. It's fanart, it's not personal. It just means I need to do better to make the cut. But again, I may be different.

area34, without relaunching the debate of "that time", i believe the real problem was that some creators were affraid a mod with too much content would overshadow the rest of the modding community. Some mesher/skinner, while not wanting to be included in the mod, were also concerned that newcomers would automatically search for content from creators included in the big mod without considering looking for alternative from lesser known mesher/skinner.
So it wasn't just a matter of asking permission and giving credit, it was [couldn't find a way to say it without it sounding like a provocation to relauch the argument]

But back on the subject, having a base pack has already been done for fxs and attribute, trying to make one big base pack with all fx (no size problem here i think), ffx attribute and mods, a few map (scale the number of map to max file size) and generic voicepack (so no highly recognizable character) would be a very good start.
Then adding a "marvel pack" with mesh/skin/herofile/voicepack to the convenience of the user looks very attractive...

Having quick (and mostly EASY) install pack would encourage new/lazy players to look for just that one thing missing from the pack to make them happy with their game. (i still have to give fully installed characters with already merged dat file to my friends for them to play the game; otherwise they see it as too much trouble..then again they don't speak english, so i can't just redirect them to a wiki or tuto)

So again, full  moral support

Ahh yes, the overshadowing argument would likely be the biggest obstacle, even if we were to use only donated content. 

Quote from: detourne_me on March 18, 2010, 11:53:51 PM
With hosting large files, torrents are always an option too.
I think character/herofile/ezscript expansion packs would be the best way to go too. with a main install of FFX, FX, Maps and Voicepacks.
So I guess for starters we need permission from various factions. I'll try to install CQ's and Sledhammer's voicepacks to my main instal first to see how easy that is.

Back in the day when Tommy had his mega mod I helped out in mailing a cd to others.
That could be an alternative. I can burn a few and send them out. When you get it burn 2
and send it to someone else. Like a Pyramid.

As Ive indicated, my fear is not about permissions or hosting as those two things are easy enough to overcome, its the fundamental  difference of opinion people have in regards to content distribution. It unfortunately is a purely ideological debate to which there is no "right way" to do things. It depends entirely on your POV.

For whats its worth, The map pack was in need of an update to FFX3.3, so if a consensus can be reached feel free to include it.

I understand the arguments on both sides, but if I have to think that if I were a new member to this community and there was something like a 'beginner's pack' with a bunch of heroes included, I would have been stoked... so you can use whatever I've done.

As long as you call it LP's Awesome Mod Stuff + Others. :)

Sometimes feelings are going to be hurt for the greater good. Feelings have to be put aside in order to strengthen the future of FF.
Keep it alive people. That should be the goal.

this isn't a permissions thread, i know, but i have the ditko attitude, if anyone can relate.  treat anything i have done as if it were your own.  i don't even need credit.
i would like to see the finished product.

where did everyone go?

After the air raid siren of this thread, we are all huddled in our bomb shelters waiting for the explosion  :D

Naaah... it's just 'cuz it's the weekend.

About duplicates: why not?

I don't know how you would choose a groups of "essential" characters, but...

I'd say the seminal characters from Marvel and DC would be the minimum:

Superman
Batman
Robin
Wonder Woman
Captain Marvel
Captain America
Sub-Mariner
Spider-Man
The Fantastic Four

Then villains:

Lex Luthor
Joker
Red Skull
Dr. Doom
Dr. Octopus

This list is just a start. But after that, what others do we include? How many first tier characters? Second Tier? Any Atlas/Seaboard or MLJ characters? What about Image, First, Comico, Crossgen, or Malibu? What about anime? Pulp characters? Newspaper characters (The Spirit, The Phantom)? Monsters (dragon, Frankenstein's, Wolfman, Dracula)? TV characters (Heroes, Mutant X, Captain Nice)? Which Green Lantern? Which Hawkman? Which Captain America?

Do we vote? How?

Marvel/DC would be a fine start.

Could always go by: who's had a movie? That would shorten the list a little but would also favor Marvel.

I'm still 50-50 on packing marvel and dc characters instead of putting 'em in separate installers but if we keep the list small like you people say I think it would be cool, like 20 and  20 chars starting out if people agree to include 'em right off the bat.

Quote from: yell0w_lantern on March 22, 2010, 01:58:12 AM
Marvel/DC would be a fine start.

Could always go by: who's had a movie? That would shorten the list a little but would also favor Marvel.

I'm a Marvel zombie but I must admit DC comes out on top with all their cartoons. We would HAVE to include bat villains (from Batman the animated series) and all core Justice League members with their respective nemesis. Not that anyone would be opposed. I'll meditate more on this once I'm at work.

Quote from: GogglesPizanno on March 22, 2010, 12:10:40 AM
After the air raid siren of this thread, we are all huddled in our bomb shelters waiting for the explosion  :D

LOL. I think it's safe to come out now. BG is releasing the DCUG! :thumbup: And this thread could possibly have been an incentive for him to do it. This is great news.

As for this project, I agree in holding the amount of characters lower as it can be finished quicker and expansions can be added over time.
When it comes to the hero files, if more than one person is going to contribute hero files, are we aiming for diversity or accuracy? What I mean is do we want all the characters relative in power to each other, or do we want multiple people's insight on the character, ending up characters that are not relative in power to each other? If you do your hero files similar to USAgent (as do I), then it probably won't be a problem if no one else is contributing hero files. Or, as mentioned before about meshes and skins, there could be duplicates, from different hero file contributors, with a different take on the character.

Quote from: cripp12 on March 20, 2010, 02:04:17 PM
Sometimes feelings are going to be hurt for the greater good. Feelings have to be put aside in order to strengthen the future of FF.
Keep it alive people. That should be the goal.

hmm how about i strengthen my own portfolio of work and not worry about the future of FF. sorry if i sound like an arse, but seriously i skin to show what i can do in photoshop if other enjoy it then all the better but i'm not going to set aside my feeling.

you make it sound like some huge crusade to get freedom force back again. i'm extremely grateful for what i've learned and the friendships i've made on this board, but sometimes i really feel like a simple guy who if i dare say how my work is used then i'm all the B's and F's of the world.

people may think this is for the good of the community but i've seen this done on other sites and 9.5/10 it backfires or people just come in grab the pack and do nothing for the community

It certainly seems to me that we can all agree on a tech pack, so that is the logical place to begin.  As a community, we've always respected what our creators want, and that is one reason so many of them stay around or continue to return.  I don't think it would be wise to ruin that.  It was in an attempt to forestall damage to the community that I took the DCUG down originally, in the hopes that we'd be able to sort things out.  The last thing we need to do is ride roughshod over the guys who actually do the work here.

Also, I think that something that can bring in new players, even if MOST of them just take and then leave (which has always been the case) can't be a bad thing.  Heck, if someone enjoys something I create, even if they never come back and contribute to the community, I would consider that a cool thing as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 22, 2010, 04:45:22 PM
hmm how about i strengthen my own portfolio of work and not worry about the future of FF. sorry if i sound like an arse, but seriously i skin to show what i can do in photoshop if other enjoy it then all the better but i'm not going to set aside my feeling.

you make it sound like some huge crusade to get freedom force back again. i'm extremely grateful for what i've learned and the friendships i've made on this board, but sometimes i really feel like a simple guy who if i dare say how my work is used then i'm all the B's and F's of the world.

people may think this is for the good of the community but i've seen this done on other sites and 9.5/10 it backfires or people just come in grab the pack and do nothing for the community

Actually, yes, you skin to show what you can do in photoshop, but you upload it for people to download it (and then run away and not contribute anything to the community). If your only reason was to see what you can do in photoshop, then why share it? Why not just share a picture of the skin? If you don't want to be a part of this then that's okay. But, I don't see anyone calling anyone names here because someone doesn't want to donate their work to a mod. Anyone who did would be the ones that are actually B's and F's.
As BG said, I'm not donating time because I want more people to contribute to the community. I'm donating time because I would like to see this mod and play it and I would like at least one other person download the mod and play it.

Well, maybe an actual campaign is the way to go rather than simply making a repository of assets. I don't really have ties with any similar communities so I don't know if that would make a difference. Maybe TUE can say some more about it.

In the Crossover Classic Mod (from which I am currently on hiatus), all the characters fit my vision. All included meshes and skins have a role in the campaign. There really isn't much extra user created content beyond that. However, choices had to be made (and some still wait to be made) regarding what gets included. I did not ask myself which one is the 'best' but which skins for a character best fit the Silver Age look I was going for?

Lots of people have done Spidey skins. I would have had a hard time picking one that was the best (whatever that is). I looked at the skins I had available and tried to pick one that looked the closest to SA Spidey and then I picked the brightest one so it would be close to the bright colors of FFv3R.

So I have a smattering of skins by skinners from Atomic Robot to TUE. There's even a Copper Age or two and a Tommy Troy.

My intentions are good... I think.  ;)

The issue with making a campaign, as Lugaru already pointed out, is that it's time consuming. His aim, correct me if I'm wrong, was to add a group of popular characters together, along with all the bells and whistles (FX, Voice Packs, Maps, New Attributes/Swaps) so players can quickly get started playing Rumble Room battles, not campaigns. If the characters included are being used as they were intended for the mod, then why does there have to be a campaign when all work used was contributed from willing donors? The argument being made for the campaign is that all the characters are used in the campaign? How is that different from a Rumble Room mod? Actually you could play all the characters included in a Rumble Room mod all at once, with all the available slots for making teams. Not so with a campaign, You can only use four at a time in a squad vs. whatever number of enemies are on the map.

Personally, I find the fun in watching the characters grow so I prefer campaigns.

And while I agree that making a campaign is a lot of work, it's also pretty cool.

BTW, here's the list from my campaign

DC                                                         Marvel                                        Archie/Red Circle/Other

Green Lantern (Hal)                               Iron Man                                         Fly-girl
Green Arrow                                         Spider-man                                     The Shield
Batman                                               Captain America                               Tick
Wonder Woman                                    Scarlet Witch                                   Space ghost
Aquaman                                             Iceman
Hourman                                              Hulk
Captain Marvel                                      Rogue
Flash II                                               Storm
Martian Manhunter                                Wolverine
El Dorado                                            Thor
Captain Atom
Metamorpho

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 22, 2010, 06:08:00 PM
Actually, yes, you skin to show what you can do in photoshop, but you upload it for people to download it (and then run away and not contribute anything to the community). If your only reason was to see what you can do in photoshop, then why share it? Why not just share a picture of the skin? If you don't want to be a part of this then that's okay. But, I don't see anyone calling anyone names here because someone doesn't want to donate their work to a mod. Anyone who did would be the ones that are actually B's and F's.
As BG said, I'm not donating time because I want more people to contribute to the community. I'm donating time because I would like to see this mod and play it and I would like at least one other person download the mod and play it.

I will admit I do upload to share, but I did at the beginning because I was asked to and I felt like giving back to the community but to be honest it?s not just became a habit.  And by the looks of things a lot of contributors have felt the same way or just stopped
All I?m saying is ideas like this have been brought up in the past and all have ended up with petty in fighting, people being vilified and hurting the community as a whole. Even the whole donation work around will not work as the people putting the pack together will want only select work from people, be they meshers, skinners, fx?ers, no matter who has said whatever.

Skinner A, hey why is his spider-man being used where as I?ve donated mine.

Unless there is one person in charge to have a final say on what happens there will be problems with people being left out, things being forgotten or permission being abused.  It will happen you can almost guarantee it.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 22, 2010, 09:01:58 PM

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 22, 2010, 06:08:00 PM
Actually, yes, you skin to show what you can do in photoshop, but you upload it for people to download it (and then run away and not contribute anything to the community). If your only reason was to see what you can do in photoshop, then why share it? Why not just share a picture of the skin? If you don't want to be a part of this then that's okay. But, I don't see anyone calling anyone names here because someone doesn't want to donate their work to a mod. Anyone who did would be the ones that are actually B's and F's.
As BG said, I'm not donating time because I want more people to contribute to the community. I'm donating time because I would like to see this mod and play it and I would like at least one other person download the mod and play it.

I will admit I do upload to share, but I did at the beginning because I was asked to and I felt like giving back to the community but to be honest it?s not just became a habit.  And by the looks of things a lot of contributors have felt the same way or just stopped
All I?m saying is ideas like this have been brought up in the past and all have ended up with petty in fighting, people being vilified and hurting the community as a whole. Even the whole donation work around will not work as the people putting the pack together will want only select work from people, be they meshers, skinners, fx?ers, no matter who has said whatever.

Skinner A, hey why is his spider-man being used where as I?ve donated mine.

Unless there is one person in charge to have a final say on what happens there will be problems with people being left out, things being forgotten or permission being abused.  It will happen you can almost guarantee it.

what about a standard skin/mesh. Anyone can replace it with their favorite. It would be impossible to use every single Spider-man skin made. How have all the other mods been passed thru this scrutiny.

Quote from: cripp12 on March 22, 2010, 09:28:27 PM
what about a standard skin/mesh. Anyone can replace it with their favorite. It would be impossible to use every single Spider-man skin made. How have all the other mods been passed thru this scrutiny.

This is sort of the fundamental issue that always comes up. To use a music analogy... The general theory is that in a mod with a story, the creator is using the assets that they think will best tell the story they want to tell (kind of like using audio samples to construct a new song). Whereas a content mod that is just a collection of "stuff" is seen as distributing other peoples work without any kind of contribution on top of it. Like giving away a CD of said audio samples for others to use. Some don't want their samples distributed that way.... others feel that it lends more importance or acceptance to certain creator over another... etc...

I understand your positions. If it were a mod put together by a single person, I'd say that person has complete authority over what is included in the mod. If the mod contains work from others, then permission should be received to use the work. If permission is given, then there should be no other complaints about the mod. If you don't like what's in it, don't download it.
If put together by a group of people, then the only thing that is different is instead of a single person making the decisions on what to include, you have a group. You still need permission to include work not from anyone in the group.
When someone donates a mesh or skin or whatever to the mod, and they aren't part of the Mod-making group, then they should understand they there is a possibility their donation might not be included. When they upload their work to be downloaded on their site, they aren't assured that anyone will download and use their work. They're just sharing their work in case someone likes it and wants to use it (in a mod).
Personally, I like playing in the Rumble Room. You can only play the same Campaign Mod over and over a few times before getting old where the Rumble Room can be different every time. There are several campaign mods available to play, but no Rumble Room mods. I think it would be nice to try something different.

i'm guessing you are using  :ffvstr: ?  if so, why not use the freeroam campaign as a base? 
if using  :ff: why not use the rumble by furie as a base?  this way you get to use all assets and it is still campaign style.  lots of benefits.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 22, 2010, 09:01:58 PM
It will happen you can almost guarantee it.

With that attitude it will.  ^_^   If somebodys skin is not used they will live, most of my skins where remade for Liberty Bay because I'm not a top tier skinner, you did not see me crying or telling people they could not remake them because it was swiping my designs or whatever. The only projects that dont run into problems are the ones that are secrets until they are published, but when stuff like this is proposed you have 10 people saying "I'm ok with it but somebody else will have a problem". Well until somebody else has a problem then everyone who said is ok is ok. Seriosly if this was another avengers or jla mod people would not care but because it is a pack for those scary outsiders who never did anything for the community, people are looking for negative angles. I say let them come, download it and leave. It will save us posts refering people to FAQs. And honestly it is not like there is no new talent on the site, that might bring more new talent.

As for campaings that is an interesting idea... I was just thinking of putting "custom force" at the core but it might be interesting to include something juicier. I was kind of thinking of doing something like the Forum Avatar Mod so that a lot of our avatars are already baked in and could be recruited together with whatever other characters we decide on.

Another thing I would love to see in the game are new objects. Stuff like time bombs and crazy inventions that take advantage of aura powers. You know, metal spheres that flash "power null", "anti war field" or "pull" for crowd control by scientific characters. Having little gadgets like that would be fun... I've set 'em up before and had a lot of fun in the rumble room.

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 22, 2010, 06:47:55 PM
The issue with making a campaign, as Lugaru already pointed out, is that it's time consuming. His aim, correct me if I'm wrong, was to add a group of popular characters together, along with all the bells and whistles (FX, Voice Packs, Maps, New Attributes/Swaps) so players can quickly get started playing Rumble Room battles, not campaigns. If the characters included are being used as they were intended for the mod, then why does there have to be a campaign when all work used was contributed from willing donors? The argument being made for the campaign is that all the characters are used in the campaign? How is that different from a Rumble Room mod? Actually you could play all the characters included in a Rumble Room mod all at once, with all the available slots for making teams. Not so with a campaign, You can only use four at a time in a squad vs. whatever number of enemies are on the map.

Very much my argument. I mean baked in characters with a "custom force" style campaign would give people great options... especially if a ton of characters are available from go. Still I would be happy to see it published without a single character and have people release expansion packs (mesh, skin and hero files for a team with installer) but baked in characters have perks.

If you want, I can try to make a list of popular characters that includes the names of the mesh/skin and names of the authors of said meshes/skins that have given their permission to use their work.

Those new objects sounds like a neat idea. I'm not sure if I could create a new object, but I can certainly create any scripting to make the powers work for the object. Actually, updating the Utility Belt Attribute to add a lot of new items that can be used has been on my To Do List for awhile.

I'm trying to think of the core tech pack for the time being since pretty much everyone is cool with that and we can start talking heroes and villains after that. Here is what I would love to see:

Powers
FFX most recent
Custom objects and swaps (all those multi color energy constructs and other useful stuff)
Community custom Attributes and Modified attributes
(one that comes to mind is 'annoying', which is jinx with rage instead of power null).

FX
EZFX
PFX 1.2 (if all those involved are cool with it)
A cross section of iconic, useful or just crazy FX

Voice
Merged data for VPMAX
Separate VPMAX download for all the mp3

Game
Customeforce 2 allowing players to choose any character to beat the campaign.
Custom loading screens with Avatars, ads for community sites and so on.

Maps
...not my area of expertise although I always install Beardeds asap. Good rumble room ones with multiple spawn points are a huge plus.

Characters
Liberty Bay - Doc Astounding, Goo, Jester, Rogue... all heroes and villains baked in and ready to be recruited for the main campaign.
Alternate Freedom Forcers: female versions, evil versions, alternate versions, ultimate versions, future versions, children of characters...
Avatars: no clue who wants to participate but hopefully a bunch, baked in and ready to recruit or use in the rumble room with custom powers set up.
Useful minions: stuff to summon or recruit as private army such as zombies, fantasy creatures, robots and monsters.

Well, you asked for thoughts...

Quote from: lugaru on March 23, 2010, 11:58:47 AM
...
Maps
...not my area of expertise although I always install Beardeds asap. Good rumble room ones with multiple spawn points are a huge plus.
...

??? which maps are these?
which game are we talking about?  both?
no love for freeroam?  freeroam would give us an excuse for many different villians and heroes to set up.  and spawn for ai allies.

Quote from: yell0w_lantern on March 23, 2010, 12:29:36 PM
Well, you asked for thoughts...

I think it is a great list... there are just a lot of conflicting opinions right now and I'm trying to navegate them right down the middle. Still if possible I would love to see a group of important heroes like that in the main campaign. I know that if we create a new one from scratch our release date will be pushed back a year but by being able to recruit people like Spidey and Batman (with powers to unlock) in the original campaign well that would be really cool.

Quote from: bearded on March 23, 2010, 12:45:13 PM

??? which maps are these?
which game are we talking about?  both?
no love for freeroam?  freeroam would give us an excuse for many different villians and heroes to set up.  and spawn for ai allies.

Didint you do the Halloween and Cuban City maps? I'm pretty sure you did but my mind is hazy, I work from midnight to 8 am and then go to another job at 9 am. As for free roam I love it but I dont remember if it was a rumble room thing or if it was a mission. If it was a rumble room thing than we cant live without it for sure. Man, I have not used that mod in forever (my game was not installed for at least a year and I just re-installed a week ago) but it was SWEET.

Either way I hope that some of the more focused minds on the forum can throw some ideas into the thread, personally I'll try to keep up with you people but my brainpower is limited until my second job ends (it is temporary). Meanwhile though I'm glad to moderate a little, keep the discussion (or argument) going and look up things that would rock.

I wish you good luck be I also advise serious care.
I've seen similar projects for other games create serious acrimony, despite being equally well meaning.
There are usually four or more problems with projects like this.
1. It's far too easy to tread on someones toes when it comes to permissions. I've seen communities less mature than this one tear themselves apart over this sort of thing. (Picking up marbles is a fear). I understand I missed a major incident here in my absence, despite maturity.
2. Just who's Captain America will you include. Too much risk of 'this packs no good to me because it has a 'rubbish' Captain America. I want a good one!'.
3. People who need spoon-feeding can never be spoon-fed enough.
4. They are never as useful as you might think. When acrimony is overcome (read: died down), it's surprising how unused such compilations in other communities are and how quickly they become obsolete.

Personally I'd skip the characters all together but include  the FFX mappack. Maybe the characters could be an add on but they seem beyond the basic concept to me and the major point of contention.

Quote from: Symon on March 23, 2010, 02:18:44 PM
2. Just who's Captain America will you include. Too much risk of 'this packs no good to me because it has a 'rubbish' Captain America. I want a good one!'.

Has anyone complained that a certain mesh/skin of a character wasn't used in any Campaign Mod? Why would someone NOT complain that a certain Cap mesh/skin wasn't used in a "Campaign Mod" but BE upset if a certain Cap mesh/skin wasn't used in a "Rumble Room Mod"? Am I missing something? What's the difference? The mod creator chooses the content to put in the mod. It shouldn't matter what kind of mod it is. All that should matter is that permission has been given to use content that wasn't made by the mod-creator. I read about the debacle after the fact, and I assumed that this was all figured out. Wasn't there a poll by TommyBoy that settled this?

Actually, yes, there have been people in the past that have complained about which skins or meshes were used in mods and other projects (and it was pretty common for newer members to "unintentionally" bash skinners when requesting better versions of the same characters). Sometimes publicly, sometimes behind scenes. That was one of the issues one person crusaded against Benton because it "had too many c6 skins." As for the poll, how can one take it into consideration when it was started during said drama [read: high emotion]?

Anyway, if it's supposed to be a community pack first and foremost, then I don't see why such a huge focus is being placed on mainstream stuff when it can easily be in accommodating packs (and most of it is very easy to find if you're not hung up on one style or skinner). I'd think attention would be put forward on content that expanded the base game first before getting to the miscellaneous "play as this cool character from the comics" stuff when that's subjective anyway.

Quote from: Previsionary on March 23, 2010, 03:45:15 PM
Anyway, if it's supposed to be a community pack first and foremost, then I don't see why such a huge focus is being placed on mainstream stuff when it can easily be in accommodating packs (and most of it is very easy to find if you're not hung up on one style or skinner). I'd think attention would be put forward on content that expanded the base game first before getting to the miscellaneous "play as this cool character from the comics" stuff when that's subjective anyway.

Yeah, I kind of still want Irrational universe characters and Avs but here is the deal about mainstream characters:

By doing 'em as expansions (self installing) they could be 100% creator focused. Crazy tallented skinners like C6 often do entire teams so it would be easy for him (or somebody with his permission) to put out a C6 classic X-men. Even bad skinners have something to offer if it is unique... I've got a couple of original teams people might download or a version of the elseworlds Teen Titans I did super early on. They dont look amazing but I'm probably the only place to get those characters.

So potentially we could have our cake (newbie focused community pack) and eat it too (creator centric new way of distributing content).

Can't you just say here is my mod and if you want your skins to be included in the expansion here is the format.
(Listen to me not knowing how to mod. ) :banghead:
Send those that want in the character files and they can replace the standard.  Even I know how to cut and past.
Is this to much?

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 03:36:09 PM

Quote from: Symon on March 23, 2010, 02:18:44 PM
2. Just who's Captain America will you include. Too much risk of 'this packs no good to me because it has a 'rubbish' Captain America. I want a good one!'.

Has anyone complained that a certain mesh/skin of a character wasn't used in any Campaign Mod? Why would someone NOT complain that a certain Cap mesh/skin wasn't used in a "Campaign Mod" but BE upset if a certain Cap mesh/skin wasn't used in a "Rumble Room Mod"? Am I missing something? What's the difference? The mod creator chooses the content to put in the mod. It shouldn't matter what kind of mod it is. All that should matter is that permission has been given to use content that wasn't made by the mod-creator. I read about the debacle after the fact, and I assumed that this was all figured out. Wasn't there a poll by TommyBoy that settled this?

Ha....keep in mind, we are not precisely a democracy here.  Yes, the majority was overwhelmingly behind my project, but if content creators are uncomfortable with certain things, we take great pains to protect their rights.  The question wasn't whether the majority wanted a mod, the majority always want more content, but whether or not the content creators wanted it.  The issue was resolved in that specific case (but not by that poll), but many larger questions remained unanswered, because we could not come to a consensus.  

Our regard for our creators is a good thing, as I said before, but you run into problems when individuals try to speak for some mysterious, silent "they," or when others sit back and grow silently angry.  It is something of a catch 22.  People get confused and angry.  It would be best to stick to things you are sure about.

Personally, I think making an Irrational superpack, with all of our tech and stuff, would be a great first step.  There are even a few MORE mods in the works that use these characters and settings.  

If you were to pursue the content pack, you could actually manage it to a certain degree if you're dealing with characters who have just one mesh and a range of skins.  Offer to take donations, and just set every character on "random."  These days, however, there aren't many characters who have just one mesh, one skope, or even just one VERSION on one mesh or skope.  You can't randomize meshes though, and there would be a built in bias in favor of whoever's work was attached to whichever character by default.  

I understand the fixation on mainstream characters, because, let's face it, that is what most people want.  Yeah, once you're in the community you may discover the Strangers and see just what you've been missing, but when most people go out to search for FF content, it's to see if anyone has made their favorite superhero.  However, as we've seen, a content pack is a troublesome thing.

So let me get this straight. Even though some content by some is left out and the content that is included has permission to be there, you still couldn't release it because the others, who content isn't included may object, even if it's only a select few? So, not only do you need permission from the creators who's content is in the mod, but you also need permission of the select few that control mod releases?
What happened when the newbies complained about the skins in those mods Prev mentioned? Did they get there way or were they shooed off?

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 05:08:31 PM
So let me get this straight. Even though some content by some is left out and the content that is included has permission to be there, you still couldn't release it because the others, who content isn't included may object, even if it's only a select few? So, not only do you need permission from the creators who's content is in the mod, but you also need permission of the select few that control mod releases?
What happened when the newbies complained about the skins in those mods Prev mentioned? Did they get there way or were they shooed off?

Welcome to the endless debate and why I run for my bunker when it comes up....  :D

Yes, I see now how people got upset.
I don't see anyone getting upset about BG releasing the DCUG which was the mod that caused the last argument. And it's being released in the same state that caused the argument minus some missing missions?
What about the people here that make stuff that want to see this kind of mod. They get overridden by a few others here that make stuff that don't want it released?

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 06:14:29 PM
Yes, I see now how people got upset.
I don't see anyone getting upset about BG releasing the DCUG which was the mod that caused the last argument. And it's being released in the same state that caused the argument minus some missing missions?
What about the people here that make stuff that want to see this kind of mod. They get overridden by a few others here that make stuff that don't want it released?

No it's not.  It's been expanded in some specific ways, I just didn't FINISH the expansions, and problematic content was removed.  I'd rather we didn't discuss that anymore.

Right, I can understand the reluctance of letting people redistribute your work if they are not doing something new with it. I can also understand the trepidation that a pack may be taken as the 'best of' or the 'one stop shop' and thereby a lot of other creators are forgotten.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that when we use the term, "mod," we're usually referring to a "full conversion mod" a opposed to mod that is more-or-less a resource pack.

And speaking for myself, I know that I sometimes have to do a reality check when I see folks use meshes by another mesher that I done a version of as well (I'm looking at you, Batman). I admit it, I get a little jealous. But in the end, I made them for myself and if other people like them and use them that's fine.

Quote from: yell0w_lantern on March 23, 2010, 06:32:21 PM
Right, I can understand the reluctance of letting people redistribute your work if they are not doing something new with it. I can also understand the trepidation that a pack may be taken as the 'best of' or the 'one stop shop' and thereby a lot of other creators are forgotten.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that when we use the term, "mod," we're usually referring to a "full conversion mod" a opposed to mod that is more-or-less a resource pack.

Yes, but the work included in the mod has the permission of the creators to be there. So why would they also be reluctant? Also, the "full version mod", as you put, typically includes meshes and skins that are not changed, but rather just added to the story with new missions, maps, attributes, etc. The meshes and skins are the same as what is available to download at the creators sites, only, as you put it, the mod creator was 'doing something new with it', by adding missions, maps, attributes, etc. This is the same as what is trying to be done here. The only difference is there isn't a storyline. If I'm correct, there'll be new missions, objects, attributes, etc.
Also, the characters that seem to be in contention are mainstream characters. No one here owns the rights to mainstream characters.

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 06:45:15 PM
Also, the characters that seem to be in contention are mainstream characters. No one here owns the rights to mainstream characters.

This to me says it all.

If you're just going to stick up you proverbial middle finger and say "I'll do what I want," then why are we even discussing this?

I think there is a point to the disussion, it is relevant to the project and our attitudes in general.

Like I said, I can live without Mainstream content. I've just had to re-install the game a bunch of times and having somthing like thi would make my life so easy.

Does anyone have suggestions for non character (skin/mesh) assets? I'm so behind on maps, fx and such. Also there is a whole EZscript subculture I'm just now gettng into because I only ever used the game for watch mode matches.

Lastly I had a failed project (organized watch mode tournament) and a standard release  like this might make it viable again, if anyone cares. I still have a lot of the teams I recieved.

No, as content creators, they do not own rights to the characters or their trademarked images (unless it's a custom design, then they have some rights over the actual costume and that's about it); however, they have SOME rights because it is their work and unique styles that are attached. No one is claiming ownership of the actual characters but of the actual work that went into it. I feel like that particular issue comes up every discussion (all 3,000 times) and it's the same defense and offense each time. So, to get it all out of the way:

1. The main issue with packs such of these are the superlatives. If one is too lazy to really search the sites and find content that they favor, why would we assume they'd go through all the trouble of changing "this and that" to fit "that or this." Barely anyone does that with actual mods. Is it too hard? No. Will the majority do it? No. Will someone complain about it? Yes.

2. Another back and forth discussion is that some creators would rather have people go to their collective sites and grab their content and what ever else they have to offer. The exploration factor takes a hit with content packs to a degree. Why explore when this is supposedly the "best" (or essentials) the community has to offer or donate?

- Using the Fallout analogy that was presented earlier in the thread by Lugaru, a key difference between that game and its community and this one is that this community is for a game that "died out" with the public. Also, Fallout has the majority of its modifications in one or two places for the most part, no? We don't. They're all over the place. Obviously it's easier to grab large content packs and still be exposed to other things when everything is in one location.

3. Tones. Keep those in check when having discussions. Be aware of how you're actually coming across because that's what sparked a lot of arguments in the past.

4. Yes, there are egos in play in this discussion, but guess what? The community kinda built up and pushed those egos, which is another underlying issue. Some people are going to be protective of their work (and sometimes that spreads out into protecting all like minded work).

As for how work that was criticized in mods were handled before... that always depended on the situation. There's no set of rules for that just like most things aren't set in stone. Yes, comments like "this skin, mesh, or what have you shouldn't be there!" have stopped mods or set off arguments in the past before the last blow up; they just weren't flare ups that always took place for the public to see.

---

Anyway, the essentials to me are the things that people need help configuring to expand their base game. I'd say FFX, ezfx, and the map pack fit in their easily. Generic voices and extra characters are fine as well, I suppose, but it really depends on how much work the organizer is willing to do in ffedit (which is a tedious process).

I just want to make it clear, because it's something I've been working on now for awhile. I wanted to do a Marvel version of the DCUG and I made a lot of new content, like missions, attributes, AI tactics, skoped meshes and keyframes and stuff, and the meshes/skins are from creators that have given permission. So I guess I should just hang it up?

Maybe you guys should figure out exactly what you want to be included in this community project. Once you have, figure out who wants to donate/volunteer their content work. Finally, set a limit as to how many creations per creator are put into the project.

EXAMPLE: If the plan is to include 80 skins and you have 8 skinners volunteering their work, set the limit to 10 skins per user. This way, no one's feelings get hurt because "x" skinner has more than "y" skinner 's stuff included.

See, a little communism can't hurt.*

*murs47 is in no way, shape, or form, a member of the communist party. "Please don't come after me Senator McCarthy"

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:16:32 PM
I just want to make it clear, because it's something I've been working on now for awhile. I wanted to do a Marvel version of the DCUG and I made a lot of new content, like missions, attributes, AI tactics, skoped meshes and keyframes and stuff, and the meshes/skins are from creators that have given permission. So I guess I should just hang it up?

Negative, you can continue it.

Dang pinko commie punk!

Spoiler

Seriously though, some type of randomization and equalization might be employed to ease tensions, in much the direction Murs was thinking.

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 19, 2010, 04:22:45 PM
Well, first you'd have to see who wants to donate. Find out who is donating what and if there are doubles, or triples of a certain contribution then most likely the friendly people donating will concede to each other to avoid stepping on each others' toes. Even then, after the main release, people who didn't get to contribute all of what they wanted, can make an expansion that adds their own content.
People donating will (should) know that they can't have every character use their skin or mesh. If there are 50 characters being made and 10 people donating meshes, then let those people choose 5 of their meshes each to donate for various characters.

[/quote]

Quote from: murs47 on March 23, 2010, 08:22:19 PM
Maybe you guys should figure out exactly what you want to be included in this community project. Once you have, figure out who wants to donate/volunteer their content work. Finally, set a limit as to how many creations per creator are put into the project.

EXAMPLE: If the plan is to include 80 skins and you have 8 skinners volunteering their work, set the limit to 10 skins per user. This way, no one's feelings get hurt because "x" skinner has more than "y" skinner 's stuff included.

See, a little communism can't hurt.*

*murs47 is in no way, shape, or form, a member of the communist party. "Please don't come after me Senator McCarthy"

I said the same thing, but got ignored?

Well I actually have it pretty much finished. So, there's really no "continuing" it. I guess I should have asked "can I release it?"

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:39:39 PM
I said the same thing, but got ignored?

Lol, sorry man. As silly as this may sound, it's probably due to your lack of an avatar. Imagery captures people's attention.

QuoteI guess I should have asked "can I release it?"

Yah

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:39:39 PM
Well I actually have it pretty much finished. So, there's really no "continuing" it. I guess I should have asked "can I release it?"

No, becase I'll wreck my compuer trying to merge it with DCU. "99% done.. OH NO!!!"

I agree there is nothing wrong with a little communism (I dont make each roomate buy their own toilet paper) but only if it encourages artists instead of supressing 'em. I say we use what fits from whomever wants to donate. Like I've said before, I'm not planning an awards show or a clearing house for kitbashed material... just a fun and useful mod for new players and people who suck at merging like me

I'm feeling optimistic and cant wait to hear some obscure recomendations, espcially for attributes since those always scare me.

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:16:32 PM
I just want to make it clear, because it's something I've been working on now for awhile. I wanted to do a Marvel version of the DCUG and I made a lot of new content, like missions, attributes, AI tactics, skoped meshes and keyframes and stuff, and the meshes/skins are from creators that have given permission. So I guess I should just hang it up?

Yeah, release the thing. It meets the vague, gray, nebulous 'approval' criteria. You did missions, custom AI's, etc... You made it your own.
It is not just a "content pack". And you got all permissions...  I say Be free little (or big) mod, Be Free!!

Well, I don't understand what difference between my mod and what Lugaru is suggesting. Isn't he trying to include a whole bunch of new stuff along with the characters? If people are worried about there being a "Best Of" mod pack, then why not allow people to create their own version of the DCUG or Marvel Universe According to Trajk (MUT), or any kind of universe, or even an amalgam of universes. If you encourage responsible mod-making rather than scaring anyone into releasing anything from fear of ticking one person off, then you won't have to worry about a "Best Of" because their would be multiple mods with the same characters but using different meshes, skins, FX, Missions, etc.

qwuh? Whatchu talkin' bout, Willis? No one is scaring anybody. Have you not seen the constant stream of content that has come out this month alone as far as mods go? This particular subject is shaky grounds because of history. That's why everyone is being careful about it so that we can avoid similar issues as before. My understanding of this subject is that Lugaru wants the community to participate in creating an ESSENTIAL pack (not all new content) that could reduce the need to manually reinstall FFX, ezfx, the map pack, and possibly voice packs (and other miscellaneous stuff that may pop up later).

Speaking of, I know I've seen several people bring up Marvel according to [appropriate member] a few times, but how is it you slipped under the radar and completed a whole mod, lol?

Quote from: murs47 on March 23, 2010, 08:24:00 PM

Quote from: TrajkLogik on March 23, 2010, 08:16:32 PM
I just want to make it clear, because it's something I've been working on now for awhile. I wanted to do a Marvel version of the DCUG and I made a lot of new content, like missions, attributes, AI tactics, skoped meshes and keyframes and stuff, and the meshes/skins are from creators that have given permission. So I guess I should just hang it up?

Negative, you can continue it.

:) Goody

Quote from: Previsionary on March 23, 2010, 11:47:43 PM
qwuh? Whatchu talkin' bout, Willis? No one is scaring anybody. Have you not seen the constant stream of content that has come out this month alone as far as mods go? This particular subject is shaky grounds because of history. That's why everyone is being careful about it so that we can avoid similar issues as before. My understanding of this subject is that Lugaru wants the community to participate in creating an ESSENTIAL pack (not all new content) that could reduce the need to manually reinstall FFX, ezfx, the map pack, and possibly voice packs (and other miscellaneous stuff that may pop up later).

Speaking of, I know I've seen several people bring up Marvel according to [appropriate member] a few times, but how is it you slipped under the radar and completed a whole mod, lol?

Just as several others create stuff, yet don't tell us because they're making it for themselves and haven't decided to share it or not, or want it to be a surprise when it's released. Over the past year, I've learned basic scripting with some help and learned a bit of skoping. I've been posting pics of some of my skopes in the "What have you skoped lately" thread. I never mentioned I was making a mod at the time because I had no intentions to do so at the time because I wasn't very good. But as I got better with the scripting and skoping I wanted to share what I've been able to do with the community.

Quote from: lugaru on March 23, 2010, 08:56:31 PM
I'm feeling optimistic and cant wait to hear some obscure recomendations, espcially for attributes since those always scare me.

Attributes? How about Electrical Control. Add commands to electrical objects on the map that:
1. Summon Electrical beings similar to Fire Elementals used by Red Sun.
2. Fires an electrical bolt at enemies or explode with an electrical explosion.
3. Allows you to teleport across the map by "traveling" through the electric grid. When you're close enough to the electrical object you can "jump" into the object. Then, all electrical devices on the map have an "emerge" command that allows you to choose which location on the map the character "re-materializes" at.
4. Can heal damage or recharge your energy.

If somebody has made this they deserve a medal. I can see how it can be done kind of sort off... a lot of it is available as regular attacks and attributes but have we created a full map teleport that is ingame standard yet? I would love to see one kind of like the "zero cost teleport" that Dr. Mike baked in. On that note I would like to create some baked in standard attacks that are useful such as "snipe" which has an extended range or "stretch attack" which is a distance punch similar to the killarilla with a whip. I experimented with that a LOT when the game first came out and got some fun results on what worked and what did not. Also I can see some full map area attacks working for certain spellcasters.

Also does anyone know what is the difference between the most recent release and the previous ones that you need to set up the newest powers elsewhere? Is there a way to work them into an updated Control Center? I know that is a job for the FFX team but heck, anything done to that mod benefits every memeber of the community.

In a distant future when I have a day off I might work on custom objects, that seems to be something that I'm more interested in than anyone else but I love the stuff you can do with limey lure swaps, energy constructs and other powers that generate objects. One of my favorite tricks was one of my punishers that summoned a frag mine entitled "front towards enemy" as an actual exploding object. Also it would be cool to have new resources for map makers integrated into the core for future maps such as radioactive barrels, antimatter (explosion causes objects to explode), "people turrets" (minion summoning spawn points) and such.

People are concerned that we are not out to make anything new and yeah, on the surface we are not because IM not much of a creator but hopefully this will provide the base for some wacky new baked in options that everyone can enjoy.

Okay, the basic idea is to make a package/mod for newbies that will get them off and running almost immediately, right? At the same time, offer a kind of sampler for what is out there to whet their apetites for more. To that end, I think at least one mesh and one skin from each creator who can be contacted should be included.

Are all of Irrational's "base" meshes included in the Steam pack? If not, they should be included in this project. What about others? Female Longhair Cape, Female Basic Cape, Male Belt Guns, Male Suit Guns... how many of these should be included? There area a lot of  community products that have been around so long they are almost "basic" necessities. Look at all of Beyonder's Male Basic Cape meshes; how many characters are skinned for them?

What about keyframes? Should examples of other Male Basic compatable keyframes be included? It would have helped me, it know. Have a folder for Male Basic (or VX Male) Speedster Keyframes (for example), with a mesh, the appropriate keyframes, and a Standard skin of a speedster. Something like that might require actively solicitating some people's work, instead of just hoping they would donate.

Donating: if the creator has already said "use in a mod just give me credit", should we consider it donated, or should they be contacted and get special permission? Didn't somebody already bring this up?

Is it possible to script a sample Danger Room scenario, one that run istelf for a minute or two then stops? Might be useful.

Lastly, FF1 or Fv3R?

Im thinking  :ffvstr: since it is the platform most people work on these days.

I think a 1 minute danger room match is very possible... It is not my area of expertise but it would be cool to have a winner declared based on most characters standing or something.

As for people who say "just use my stuff" I would want to double check just to be safe. People change, and while I could lawyer them by saying "when you released it you said we could use it" well respect for individual members is first. I just wont have a person who is donating nothing saying we should not do the project.

I love the idea of including the super basic meshes with our updated keyframes. They are also good vehicles for some of our personal creations, like the male basic with martial artist keyframes could have one of our kung fu characters.

This thing is going to be MILES way from being a one stop pack or even a Best Of, but hopefully it will make a great first step or main install for people who do this game casually instead of as a regular hobby. I could see it benefiting people who re-install the game after not playing for 4 years so they dont have to download and merge 5 or 10 mods just to have "the perfect" base game. You know, in case the people with thousands of posts on the forum who think it is too much work to keep playing the game want to jump back in.

Right now I'm trying to familiarize myself with what is under the hood in case I end up doing most of the work my myself and so I can include some extra content. Already I've decided on a few custom attributes and if it does not have to be done on a map by map basis I might increase building hitpoints for a less crumbly world. Would people be interested in this?

Well custom new turrets, bombs and gadgets are coming along. I will also add a bunch of new barrels including liquid nitrogen, radioactive and acid. Also I should be working on some EZ script stuff when my census job temporarily ends (I will start phase 2 soon).

Meanwhile I'm playing lots of CO which is getting in the way but I cant wait to get some real work done.

Maybe custom skins for the in-game characters could be included. This way, custom attributes or ai could be demonstrated for new members with out having to use mainstream characters. Otherwise, I think it would be really helpful to have an install pack for fx's, voices, attributes, etc for new players. Maybe include a list of websites which contain other FF content.

Quote from: yell0w_lantern on March 23, 2010, 06:32:21 PM
Right, I can understand the reluctance of letting people redistribute your work if they are not doing something new with it. I can also understand the trepidation that a pack may be taken as the 'best of' or the 'one stop shop' and thereby a lot of other creators are forgotten.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that when we use the term, "mod," we're usually referring to a "full conversion mod" a opposed to mod that is more-or-less a resource pack.

And speaking for myself, I know that I sometimes have to do a reality check when I see folks use meshes by another mesher that I done a version of as well (I'm looking at you, Batman). I admit it, I get a little jealous. But in the end, I made them for myself and if other people like them and use them that's fine.

Not to instigate anything, but this project seems to be going back and forth between a "Mod" and a "Beginners/Resource Pack". It doesn't bother me either way, but I'm thinking that maybe a clarification would help others form a full opinion on this.

Quote from: Amazo Version 2.2 on April 21, 2010, 09:23:30 PM
Maybe custom skins for the in-game characters could be included. This way, custom attributes or ai could be demonstrated for new members with out having to use mainstream characters. Otherwise, I think it would be really helpful to have an install pack for fx's, voices, attributes, etc for new players. Maybe include a list of websites which contain other FF content.

I like the idea of including links to creators websites as well.

Quote
I like the idea of including links to creators websites as well.

I have one i am working on with 5700 skins and still adding. Excel spreadsheet.

Quote from: Amazo Version 2.2 on April 21, 2010, 09:23:30 PM
Maybe custom skins for the in-game characters could be included. This way, custom attributes or ai could be demonstrated for new members with out having to use mainstream characters. Otherwise, I think it would be really helpful to have an install pack for fx's, voices, attributes, etc for new players. Maybe include a list of websites which contain other FF content.

'
Why would it NOT be a big deal to include "original" meshes/skins, but it would be a big deal to include mainstream meshes/skins? It sounds like it would fall under the "reluctance of letting people redistribute their work without doing something new with it". There have been resource packs for FX, Voice Packs. These aren't considered the Best-Of. Only if it includes meshes/skins it would be considered a Best-Of Pack? Even if there is only one mesh/skin in existence for one specific character, how could it be considered a Best-Of? It would be much easier to just let creators donate what they would like to see in this pack (mainstream and original). You have more than enough permissions from mesh/skin creators (see the readmes included with the 1000s of meshes and skins made for this game) to include just about any character you wanted in your Mod/Resource pack, Lugaru. And the mod-maker should be able to take the permissions given in the readme at face value. Not some third-party's interpretation of the readme writer's permissions.

Quote from: Cyber Burn on April 22, 2010, 01:01:52 AM


Not to instigate anything, but this project seems to be going back and forth between a "Mod" and a "Beginners/Resource Pack". It doesn't bother me either way, but I'm thinking that maybe a clarification would help others form a full opinion on this.

I like the idea of including links to creators websites as well.

My fantasy would be starting with something like the "avatar mod" which does nothing but ad avatars and community inspired loading screens and then make sure that every little annoyance of starting out is dealth with from FX, FFX, Voice packs and maps. Extra mainstream characters are a bonus but not my priority, even in the first post that was an afterthought.

I agree with TrajkLogik that this is a very specific sort of mod that rubs people the wrong way but is not all that different than any other mod out there. And hopefully it will add some new stuff, I'm really dense when it comes to modding this game (give me Fallout 3 or Civ 4 and I can do a lot more) but I want to put a few crumbs into the cake and hopefully other people will have some custom attributes, effects and other stuff worth throwing in there that are not collected in any form.

Also I've got some killer hosting. I would prefer to see this on a site like the one that belongs to Catwho because I'm all for centralizing. Still all I need to do is pick up a cheap domain and I would be all set, kinda want one for my rpg and other game content anyway. Also that way I could do some loud and proud HTML credits and links.

Quote from: TrajkLogik on April 22, 2010, 11:14:37 AM

Quote from: Amazo Version 2.2 on April 21, 2010, 09:23:30 PM
Maybe custom skins for the in-game characters could be included. This way, custom attributes or ai could be demonstrated for new members with out having to use mainstream characters. Otherwise, I think it would be really helpful to have an install pack for fx's, voices, attributes, etc for new players. Maybe include a list of websites which contain other FF content.

'
Why would it NOT be a big deal to include "original" meshes/skins, but it would be a big deal to include mainstream meshes/skins? It sounds like it would fall under the "reluctance of letting people redistribute their work without doing something new with it". There have been resource packs for FX, Voice Packs. These aren't considered the Best-Of. Only if it includes meshes/skins it would be considered a Best-Of Pack? Even if there is only one mesh/skin in existence for one specific character, how could it be considered a Best-Of? It would be much easier to just let creators donate what they would like to see in this pack (mainstream and original). You have more than enough permissions from mesh/skin creators (see the readmes included with the 1000s of meshes and skins made for this game) to include just about any character you wanted in your Mod/Resource pack, Lugaru. And the mod-maker should be able to take the permissions given in the readme at face value. Not some third-party's interpretation of the readme writer's permissions.

I'm not trying to cause any further negative discussions, I am only suggesting that we can avoid stepping on creators toes, by using the meshes that are already included with the game (such as microwave or minuteman), and have people specifically donate skins for them. This avoids the "why wasn't my mesh used" issue, as well as the pemissions issue.

I would really like to see this project get off the ground, with as little negative opinions as possible.

Quote from: Amazo Version 2.2 on April 22, 2010, 03:46:12 PM
I'm not trying to cause any further negative discussions, I am only suggesting that we can avoid stepping on creators toes, by using the meshes that are already included with the game (such as microwave or minuteman), and have people specifically donate skins for them. This avoids the "why wasn't my mesh used" issue, as well as the pemissions issue.

I would really like to see this project get off the ground, with as little negative opinions as possible.

I totally agree with the last sentence.

If people can donate skins to this project, then why not meshes? I'm sure other content (FX, Maps, Scripting etc.) is being donated/used with permission - which has been my point all along - donations. With all the content with readmes that say "go ahead use it just give me credit" and those that have shown support and permissions in this thread, Lugaru already has a wide variety of stuff to choose from. If there's a particular thing he wants to use whose permission isn't clarified by themselves (not a third party), he can always contact the person. Those that don't donate anything really shouldn't be having a say in what is included. It's really very simple. I don't see any reason to be negative if this is the way it's done.

EDIT:
And according to Lugaru's own statements in this thread, this is how it will be done. With that being said, to avoid any further negativity, it would be my suggestion to make posts that support, donate and give permissions and suggestions of what should be included, rather than what shouldn't.