hey BG, i think namor has a chance. everyone forgets he can control sea life also! check it:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/hypnofish.htm (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/hypnofish.htm)
namors body can also mimic certain abilities of sea creatures.his body can absorb electric current and re-direct it at a foe and can expand like a puffer fish.thats the only physical things ive seen him do other than his normal superhuman abilities.in the marvel v.s dc couple years back they made out like namor was a slow poke underwater compared to aquaman.why would that be? since namors way stronger wouldnt he be able to push through the water easier and also get more propulsion from his ankle wings? just wondering.
Years ago I would have said Namor, hands down.
I havent read aquaman recently but just from the internet I'm aware that they have made him into much more of a warrior, with constantly creeping powers. I dont know where his limits are as of this date but odds are the fight would be a lot more even.
I can tell you that Aquaman is a lot more vulnerable to Pirranas than Namor is, I think namor is at least bulletproof.
thats why dc NEVER pins down their abilities on their characters.i like aquaman but he's just as interesting not being as strong as namor.couple more years aquaman will be swimming backward at the speed of light turning back time and pulling planets out of orbit just so he's better than his marvel counter part.marvel and dc dont need cross overs because of this issue.
Heh, hypnofish... me like... funny...
I still like how he had a whale body slam Namor in the Marvel vs DC comics. Although those were horrificly bad and short changed fights. Still it gave us the amusing Amalgams which were fun.
I have no opinion on a fight between these two, the real challenge is could they arrange it and write such a fight well enough that I would actually read it and bother buying a copy.
Well, the thing with any fight between Namor and Aquaman is that it is far more than a simple physical confrontation. In strength, Namor is superior, and should remain so. Yeah, Aquaman's power levels fluctuate, but if you look at his histroy, there is an overall logic that places him at about the levels you see in JLU (for an easy reference). Even very early on, he was at LEAST bullet resistant, if not technically bullet proof, so he's pretty tough, and he has some pretty impressive endurance feats. In speed, Aquaman definitely owns Namor, and you can't really apply logic to it. Logically, neither one of them should be particularly adapted to life underwater. After all, they don't really have any fins or visible gills. Still, Aquaman is fast. REALLY fast. He can keep up with the Flash when he's running on the water and swim Niagara Falls upstream. Think about that for a minute. Anyway, Namor has the strength, and possibly even the toughness advantage. In a physical confrontation, they would likely end up somewhat balanced, with the edge perhaps going to Namor. Still, it isn't purely physical. Aquaman has what is likely the most powerful mind on DC's earth, in terms of raw power. During a telepathic battle with an enemy with similar abilities, his mind caused debilitating pain to pretty much every inhabitant of the earth, and certainly every inhabitant of the oceans...all of them. He could probably hammer at Namor as they fought, and at the very least, put him off his balance. Because of that, I would give most fights to Aquaman.
how does he swim fast enough to keep up with flash?
Namor. This is one of the few cases where the Marvel analogue of a similar character is more powerful than its DC counterpart.
Quote from: herodad1 on May 22, 2009, 08:32:39 PM
how does he swim fast enough to keep up with flash?
*Shrug* how do those tiny ankle wings hold Namor up in the air? Ha, it's comic logic man. I don't buy it Talavar.
well as far as namor, maybe like a bumblebee its wings are naturally too small for its body but the high reps those wings put out give it enough lift/propulsion to fly.when it comes to aquaman,doesnt he have an extra ability to create a hard water effect.maybe that ability gives him propulsion.mentally pushing himself threw the water.thats all i could come up with.
Namor's a mutant... That's all you need to know. :p Yeah he's also part Atlantean but he's still an Xmen style mutant.
And yes I also think he got Gypped in the VS Aquaman fight. Namor's strong enough to benchpress a freaking whale!!!!
Quote from: herodad1 on May 22, 2009, 08:32:39 PMhow does he swim fast enough to keep up with flash?
Via
really bad writing. :lol: Seriously, at Flash's speed, water isn't even something we would recognize as a liquid. It would be more like a normal person running across fresh asphalt during hot weather; sure if you stand there for a week, you will sink in, but for all intents and purposes, it is a solid. Flash's top speed running on water should be like 90+% as fast as his top land speed. If Aquaman can keep up with Flash, then he is basically a speedster character (or somehow the Flash is not, when he's on water), which I think is well outside of his premise. IMO, this is one of the many cases where "just because it appeared in a comic doesn't mean it's canon."
(BTW, I have no idea about Namor vs. Aquaman, since I know so little about Namor.)
I don't know, we're talking about things that are pretty much unquantifiable because they are so far outside of anything that we can actually relate to, but if Aquaman can swim Niagara Falls (from JLA, not Aquaman's own book, even) upstream, then he has to be able to generate an INCREDIBLE amount of speed and power. Still, you have to suspend your disbelief a lot to accept that characters like this could exist. Aquaman's speed is something often ignored, but he is really, REALLY fast. He can dodge bullets, catch rocket fired harpoons, etc. He's not as fast as Flash, but then when Flash is running on water, he doesn't necessarily have to be running at his top speed. He only really needs to be running fast enough to NOT fall into the water. Still, that means Aquaman is traveling pretty darn fast. He really is monstrously underated. At times he's fought gods, gone toe to toe with Ultraman and managed to keep him tied down. In my mind, he's always been around Wonder Woman level of power....although, in my mind, she's not nearly in Superman's league, so take that for what's it worth. Although, he HAS defeated Wonder Woman's evil twin, Superwoman.
Also, I'd say Aquaman is almost certainly a mutant as well. It's really the only feasible (here I am contradicting myself, I suppose) explanation for how far above other Atlantians he is in terms of power. Sure, other Atlantians are strong or tough, but Aquaman is INCREDIBLY strong and tough, even compared to them.
Yeah, THAT fight was terrible, no argument here. The other one, from the later book, was much better. Aquaman nearly knocks Namor unconscious while mentally shutting down an entire ARMY of rogue Atlantians. He wasn't even targeting Namor. That, while not a fight in the same sense, I suppose, makes a lot more sense to me.
I guess I spent too much time in fluid mechanics classes, but there really is little comparison between the speed needed to swim up Niagara Falls and that needed to go as fast as the Flash can run on water. As I said, without some deliberately contrived handicap, Flash can run on water at basically the same speed he can run on land. At those speeds, there is no practical difference that would affect running (for example, water isn't "slippery" or anything like that). To swim up Niagara falls, it would be necessary to maintain a linear swimming speed somewhat faster than the water is falling, which is a little under 70 mph. After that, he just needs enough added swimming speed overcome his body weight. Now, that may be pretty fast (maybe 120+ mph), but I've heard of Aquaman swimming at several hundred knots. So, assuming whatever magic makes that possible horizontally still works vertically, going up Niagara should be a snap for him. I'm just saying that neither one is even close to as fast as Flash can run.
Anyway, rereading, I think you meant that Aquaman can keep up with Flash when Flash is going just fast enough to run on water, not when he is running as fast as he can on water (which is what I was thinking about, and maybe herodad1, too). I agree that that's easily within the claims I've heard for Aquaman, since running on water doesn't require Flash to go very fast (by Flash standards :blink:).
The later is precisely what I was implying, although I imagine that is certainly no mean feat! One stat I've heard quoted places Aquaman at 2000 fps in the water.
A few interesting speed things:
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3976/aquamanspeedfeat24qm1.jpg
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/272/aquamanspeedfeat04gh0.jpg
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3153/aquamanspeedfeat26mz5.jpg
A few of my favorite strength moments (there are many more ostentatious displays, but these are just cool):
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1554/aquamanannual199722ei8.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1921/aquamandurabilityfeat05zs8.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8976/aquamanv614153ql.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8172/aquamanv632131vp.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4875/aquamanv635165ym.jpg
Storming Hades itself...PAD's run has a few saving graces:
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/109/aquamanv546106ea.jpg
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/8625/aquamanv546112kb.jpg
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/5140/aquamanv546123ws.jpg
The Namor encounter I mentioned:
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/3368/jlavengers04339yb.jpg
:EDIT: My mistake, make that 20,000 fps.
right, but talking about controlling sea life, aquaman seems to be limited to real world fish. namor got his hands on a mento fish. so, that implies namor fish are stronger than aquaman's fish.
QuoteSub-Mariner captures the sub with a giant clam
QuoteJohnny attacks but Sub-Mariner is ready with sea-creature called a flame-eater,
http://www.dcarchives.com/marvel/mm/ff/ff014.html (http://www.dcarchives.com/marvel/mm/ff/ff014.html)
and there is this:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/gigantos.htm (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/gigantos.htm)
so, i don't buy the amalgam fight on several levels. i don't see aquaman cheating either. he is royalty. noblisse oblige, donchaknow. and namor would summon monstro, which would then eat the whale.
Quote from: bearded on May 23, 2009, 05:42:22 AM
right, but talking about controlling sea life, aquaman seems to be limited to real world fish. namor got his hands on a mento fish. so, that implies namor fish are stronger than aquaman's fish.
Not at all, my friend, not at all:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/2207/justiceleagues3of620gq8.jpg (Aquaman summons these, but someone hijacks them with technology)
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/320/finnyfriends01eq1.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1895/finnyfriends06er8.gif
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5770/finnyfriends18lo7.jpg
Aquaman would win because I like him better than Namor.
Wait... they've not retconned away Namor's absurdly stupid (even for comics) feet wings???
I change my mind I care now...
Aquaman wins because Namor has stupid wings on his ankles.
Aquaman's I'm dressed like a terrifying goldfish costume > Namor's perma thong/daisy duke swimming shorts with ankle wings
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 23, 2009, 03:53:49 AMhttp://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8172/aquamanv632131vp.jpg
that is actually pretty good. I still think Namor's stronger. Namor is strong enough to deck the Hulk.
*shrug* As I said, those weren't necessarily the top end, and I'm not really arguing that Aquaman is as strong as Namor, I don't really think he is. I don't think he's necessarily as strong as Wonder Woman either, but that doesn't mean that he isn't as powerful as they are. All in all, I'd back him against either. As for Namor decking the Hulk...well, here is Aquaman decking Shaggy Man, easily in Hulk's class:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4627/aquamanstrengthfeat11xj2.jpg
Remember the episode of JLU with the League going up against the General? Well, in the comics, the General was a shaved Shaggy Man, just to give you some context.
And another favorite moment of mine:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/tgtmarvel/jla-004-10.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/tgtmarvel/jla-004-11.jpg
Morisson did alright by Aquaman.
Shaggy... man?
So I just googled this fellow... he's essentially a furry Doomsday it seems. Why do I give Doomsday top billing even though Shaggy is older?
1) His name is Shaggy
2) I thought he was a super powered bigfoot
3) He was not a super powered bigfoot another point deduction
4) He doesn't have cool invulerable hair like Superman
5) He sometimes has adaptation powers, sometimes not
6) I was hoping at least his origin involved being an unwashed hippy, another failure
7) Super powered bones are cooler than non super powered fur
I concluded he doesn't have super powered hair, as somehow Eiling shaved himself. Of course perhaps he keeps a magic shaving kit around to counter his well... shaggyness.
That all being said I refuse to call him The General... FOREVER... shall he be Shaggy Man... Is his run in the Suicide Squad any good at least?
If Aquaman can give a human a debilitating seizure with his telepathic powers by attacking the 'fish' part of our brain (remnant of our evolution etc.), he could probably take Namor out of the game completely, as Namor is much closer to sea life than we are.
I love both characters immensely, but Aquaman would take this one if I were writing it, but not until after he'd taken his proper lumps from the physically superior Namor.
Quote from: Carravaggio on May 23, 2009, 10:43:07 PM
If Aquaman can give a human a debilitating seizure with his telepathic powers by attacking the 'fish' part of our brain (remnant of our evolution etc.), he could probably take Namor out of the game completely, as Namor is much closer to sea life than we are.
I love both characters immensely, but Aquaman would take this one if I were writing it, but not until after he'd taken his proper lumps from the physically stronger Namor.
Fixed. ^_^
the way I see it Aquaman would have to rely on his (apparently) superior telepathic skills to win. He is apparently strong enough in this regard that when J'onn needed help to beat Despero in a Telepathic battle, he found Aquaman. O_o'
sorry Benton, Carr was correct Namor is physically superior... he's not afraid to show off his swimmer's body while mister curry is so insecure that he hides behind an orange shirt :P
also,
ankle wings > calf fins
pointy head, eyebrows and ears > 'salty dog' beard
oh and here's the real proof:
Spoiler
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5302/83943506.jpg)>(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1929/superstickers2.gif)
Quote from: detourne_me on May 24, 2009, 05:36:12 PM
sorry Benton, Carr was correct Namor is physically superior... he's not afraid to show off his swimmer's body while mister curry is so insecure that he hides behind an orange shirt :P
also,
ankle wings > calf fins
pointy head, eyebrows and ears > 'salty dog' beard
oh and here's the real proof:
Spoiler
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5302/83943506.jpg)>(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1929/superstickers2.gif)
*I'm taking this discussion very seriously*No... just no... ankle wings suck... you see fins like flippers... can actually help you swim or might be sharp enough like that poisonous claw on a platypus to actually hurt something... in theory... but ankle wings? SUUUUCCCCCCCK!
You are just a thousand pounds of fail for supporting ankle wings.
He had the beard once, and the way you describe Namor he sounds like he is half elf or deformed, all Aquaman has to do is shave. Namor has TRUE DEFORMITY and would require a super powered or mad scientist plastic surgeon to operate on him to fix it or some sort of magical magician of plastic surgery.
I find your embracing of ankle wings & other deformity disturbing.
Though points for trying to prop Namor up by SUPPORTING ADULTERY!
Not quite ^_^:
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3913/go3013an.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/131/go3027an.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1635/go3034pg.jpg
Please stop before we have to see NSFW pictures of Namor & Aquaman. I'm not sure I like where this is going. I am a little afraid even. Pretty sure I don't want this discussion to go that far in the comparisons department.
aww, lets just say they both are powerful in their own ways.both have something the other one doesnt and would be awsome as a team.
That long haired blond dude that Namor's kissing sure has some big biceps.
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on May 24, 2009, 07:26:17 PM
That long haired blond dude that Namor's kissing sure has some big biceps.
Woah I just looked at that pic again... I guess Aquaman & Namor decided to settle their differences themselves... with love... and man kissing...
I mean it does look more like Aquaman than Sue Storm, especially if you consider this blue costume (http://onceuponageek.com/images/aquacover19.jpg).
Don't worry Namor & Aquaman, we promise your secret (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5302/83943506.jpg) is safe.
*shakes head*
Okay I've seen enough...... :blink:
Okay, I am just going to paraphrase Seinfeld's Raquel Welch joke: "Those aren't biceps..."
and then back slowly toward the door...
Namor's early appearances in the FF make him out to be not just na undersea strongman but a bit like Green Arrow, only with trick fish instead of trick arrows.
I seem to remember he also throws some kind of underwater sponge or fast growing coral or something at Ben one time that almost engulfs him.
Quote from: DrMike2000 on May 25, 2009, 05:58:06 AM
Namor's early appearances in the FF make him out to be not just na undersea strongman but a bit like Green Arrow, only with trick fish instead of trick arrows.
I seem to remember he also throws some kind of underwater sponge or fast growing coral or something at Ben one time that almost engulfs him.
I remember those appearances. Yeah, Namor pulled some pretty crazy stuff out of the ocean.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 23, 2009, 08:36:38 PM
*
And another favorite moment of mine:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/tgtmarvel/jla-004-10.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/tgtmarvel/jla-004-11.jpg
Morisson did alright by Aquaman.
I really really really hate his telepathy affecting humans. it just smacks of all those uber powers they kept adding to Martian Manhunter over the years which made him less interesting to me. I think if he tried that Namor would pull will and strength from his depths and overcome because its such a villainous type of attack. ( and I like Aquaman especially JLU version much more than Namor.) Did I mention I hate his telepathy able to give humans seizures etc.
OK rant over. I think Aquaman might pull it out even if Namor is stronger because he does seem faster and a more tactical fighter and more importantly, in more recent versions at least, seems to have more of a will and determination not to fall. I think they'd both be really mauled by the time they were done though.
honestly it would be one hell of a fight between the two. especially if each were allowed to dig deep into their grab bags of assorted powers over the years. however if we look at the common denominations of each character... by that i mean how they are perceived most often by the public, by their fans, and how they are depicted in popular media, the fight would have to go to Namor. He is just physically more powerful and more ruthless by nature. Also this is one of the few times that it's actually a DC character that's an analogue of a Marvel character, and not the other way around.
EDIT: Although Aquaman does clean Namor's clock in a googlefight.
Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on May 24, 2009, 06:29:25 PM
Please stop before we have to see NSFW pictures of Namor & Aquaman. I'm not sure I like where this is going. I am a little afraid even. Pretty sure I don't want this discussion to go that far in the comparisons department.
lol
This is a great topic and all, but let's be honest, if this was going to happen it would be up to the writers who would win.
Quote from: JeyNyce on May 26, 2009, 08:51:55 PM
This is a great topic and all, but let's be honest, if this was going to happen it would be up to the writers who would win.
Don't be silly JeyNyce, it's ALWAYS up to the writers. ;) They are fictional characters, after all. Of course their unreality creates a sliding scale by which all such matches are measured, but we can make educated guesses from the "evidence" of their fictional histories.
I'll say again, I agree Namor is physically stronger, (although a strong case could be made that he is not any tougher, and in fact at a much greater disadvantage out of water than modern Aquaman) but how often do we see characters beat opponents who are physically stronger than them? Heck, Captain America gets by pretty much on speed and reflexes alone. Strength is only one element in the equation. That being said, in a purely physical confrontation, I do give the edge (however slight) to Namor. After all, that's what he does. Aquaman, however, has a lot more going for him.
Steamteck, Aquaman's telepathy affecting humans is hardly a recent edition. It was present back in the 60's!
And it apparently works on aliens too! Rather recently he used it to try to defeat Despero!
namor is stronger and tougher( she-hulk was clobbering him ) but i think aquaman is a thinking-fighter.namor lets his ego and temper get the best of him most of the time (98%).aquaman would probably,if telepathy and fist dont work try to make him defeat himself.if its toe-to-toe i'd go namor but any other way well.....
Namor is tougher? Spoken with conviction I see. Ahh...you're going to make me back up what I said about Aquaman's toughness, hmm?
Able to withstand incredible pressure...of course:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7194/aquamanagainst800atmospheres4d.jpg
Aquaman takes on the Deep Six, six, count 'em SIX class 100 bruisers who gave Orion a run for his money. Arthur takes the best they've got and still puts them down. He did have his "son" Koryak (can't stand the character) to help him, but still...that's two against six. Slig at least is on She Hulk's level, and they are all likely higher.
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/7595/aquamanv508083it.jpg
Taking fire from a hi-tech weapon:
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5086/aquamanfightsblind021kj.jpg
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9571/aquamanfightsblind038me.jpg
Surviving a big torpedo strike (in style):
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8906/aquamansurvivesatorpedo015zr.jpg
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/7272/aquamansurvivesatorpedo027ql.jpg
A little more:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1227/jla02511tl7.jpg (ouch)
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/3523/jla02512is4.jpg (bulletproof)
Right after this he jumps all the way back down to the ground, taking that water guy out in the process.
Takes a GIANT blast from a huge Starro:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/849/jla23pg13kt0.jpg (Which knocks Orion flat out)
Not only does he survive, but he's right back in the fight:
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/2360/jla23pg16mw9.jpg
Trades blows with King Shark, who has played fisticuffs with Superboy on a number of occasions:
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3332/swordofatlantis46page14zu4.jpg
And one of my favorites, Aquaman takes on the UNBELIEVABLY powerful Titus:
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/2087/jlaclassified53011ij4.jpg
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/210/jlaclassified53012wu9.jpg (The narration says he lasts a minute against this guy, but just for some context, about a page back Titus casually knocked Superman across a continent. The fact that he was still alive after this encounter speaks volumes.)
I'm not saying Aquaman is tougher, in fact, I rather suspect the opposite, but I am saying that it is anything but cut and dried.
Uh... the bottom of Challenger Deep is about 1000 Atmospheres... 800 would be one of the deepest parts of the ocean.
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/7595/aquamanv508083it.jpg
^ who's the Orange babe?
Um seriously though, "big six"? If Orion could beat them single handedly then they can't be that strong.
Titus? He looked kinda worn out....
Oookay:
Aquaman has been pretty much everywhere in the ocean, including to the bottom of the Marianas trench (although that one was pushing him).
The orange babe was some kind of elemental the Deep Six had called up somehow. I haven't read the story arc, just the part with the fight.
He didn't. Orion beat them one at a time. I think he may have taken on two of them at the same time. Interestingly enough, that's pretty much what Aquaman did. The point is that these guys could HURT Orion, who is roughly Superman level, and Aquaman can take punches from them.
Titus was doing just fine. He hadn't exerted any real effort by that point.
Hehe... :) I'm not trying to argue a point, just talking.
Titus was then staggered by Black Canary. :p
I'm kinda sure that the Deep Six would have been shown as able to hurt superman, before getting their clocks cleaned......
aquaman v.s galactus anyone? :P
Ha, that's one I don't think 'ol gilhead could win. Although...perhaps if he served as a conduit to direct the thoughts of all the beings on Earth against big G..... ;) I should really be writing Aquaman.... :P
Canary made him flinch, but the Canary cry is pretty darn powerful. She can tear down buildings, after all.
That's the point though, they can hurt Superman with a punch. Aquaman can take a punch from them too. Meaning Aquaman should be able to take a punch from, say, She Hulk, with equal ease.
*looks up Deep Six in an attempt to find out about the Orange babe*
Apparently they've fought a group called the "Supermen of America". :) In a 2000 comic that is.
Oh and the only hard data I could find on the "Orange Babe" was a name. Pyron. Amazingly generic and boring huh? Other scraps I could gather: Apparently she's from Apokolips, and fought Orion at some point. (Her name is in a list of Apokoliptian Villains in an article about Orion's miniseries. More specifically, she was in the issue titled "Day of Wrath".) This was from the DC.wikia. Wikipedia had nothing. From what I can gather though it looks as if this Pyron character only appeared in two issues.
Wow! Having seen your extensive collection of Aquaman pics here, Benton, I've got to say you come to a vs. thread prepared.
Even more prepared than Batman is when he defeats Superman every other week.
Therefore I can only conclude that Benton could take on Batman.
Quote from: DrMike2000 on May 27, 2009, 03:57:25 AM
Wow! Having seen your extensive collection of Aquaman pics here, Benton, I've got to say you come to a vs. thread prepared.
Even more prepared than Batman is when he defeats Superman every other week.
Therefore I can only conclude that Benton could take on Batman.
This is a guy that wrote an essay (http://frp.unlimited2.net/highlight-on-aquaman/) on Aquaman. Also, his super power is "Aquaman" sense. Haven't you ever wondered how he always seems to pop up whenever Aqua-dork is mentioned?
Quote from: DrMike2000 on May 27, 2009, 03:57:25 AM
Wow! Having seen your extensive collection of Aquaman pics here, Benton, I've got to say you come to a vs. thread prepared.
Even more prepared than Batman is when he defeats Superman every other week.
Therefore I can only conclude that Benton could take on Batman.
Yes...yes I could.
Ha, Prev., despite your denials, I know that you love Aquaman deep in your cold, black heart. I suppose as I've grown more and more fond of the character I have also grown more knowledgeable. All of that adds up to me also growing more attentive to people underestimating or misunderstanding Aquaman and all the more willing to defend against such instances.
Writing an essay is easy, like building a Batmobile.
Having a dazzling array of pictures of Aquaman's feats lined up and named and ready to go is more akin to having files on all your teammates and how to take them down should they turn evil.
Be careful what you say about "The Grey Man", Prev. We wouldn't even see him coming if we really dissed Aquaman...
:D
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 27, 2009, 01:49:09 AM
Namor is tougher? Spoken with conviction I see. Ahh...you're going to make me back up what I said about Aquaman's toughness, hmm?
Able to withstand incredible pressure...of course:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7194/aquamanagainst800atmospheres4d.jpg
Is that... Shaggy Man in that container? Just wondering... I just learned the character even existed the other day and was curious when I saw it.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 27, 2009, 01:49:09 AM
A little more:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1227/jla02511tl7.jpg (ouch)
Also did someone seriously try to defeat Aquaman with... WATER? Wow... what an unimpressive villain, heh.
Who ever it is it looks like a ten-foot Yeti.
That was indeed the Shaggy Man in the tube in the Morrison and Porter JLA images there.
Thanks Dr. Mike, that is indeed the Shaggy Man. I haven't read that arc (I really want to read the rest of Morrison's run on JLA, as it does seem to be pretty good), but from what I understand, the League was trying to prevent some military group from recovering the Shaggy Man's body. My guess would be that this is the beginning of the General, but I don't know for sure.
Ha, well that guy was actually trying to drown the Flash (who he had trapped IN his body), and just used his high pressure spray to knock Aquaman away. Of course, he DID knock him about a zillion stories up into the top of a building...so....
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 27, 2009, 12:24:43 AM
Steamteck, Aquaman's telepathy affecting humans is hardly a recent edition. It was present back in the 60's!
Hmmm. You're obviously the expert but I sure don't remember it. I still object to it becoming an uber power that allows him to cause people to fall twitching in seizures. frankly I feel it underminds the character concept and no longer lets him claim concept superiority over Namor's silly little ankle wings.
Namor hands down. He fought with Captain America and the Human Torch in WWII. 'Nuff Said.
:popcorn :popcorn2 :popcorn
Quote from: Torch on May 27, 2009, 05:36:02 PM
Namor hands down. He fought with Captain America and the Human Torch in WWII. 'Nuff Said.
:popcorn :popcorn2 :popcorn
*shrug* Aquaman fought the Axis too...
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 27, 2009, 05:56:57 PM
*shrug* Aquaman fought for the Axis too...
Fixed. :huh:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__dO31_PK2kE/RugQJuETUnI/AAAAAAAABUo/TIko4VkebYI/s400/aquaman+small.jpg
Eat sea justice Nazi scum!
Go easy, Benton; Not everyone knows that Aquaman has been around since 1940.
Yeah, surprisingly enough he's one of the only characters to have a pretty much uninterrupted existence from the Golden Age to the Modern Age.
Here's the real test for the Namor vs Aquaman topic:
If each of them were to fight the Hulk, who would last longer?
I'd say the Hulk in both cases.
Aquaman's psychic powers would definitely give him the edge over the Hulk.
Quote from: Gremlin on May 28, 2009, 08:14:37 PM
Aquaman's psychic powers would definitely give him the edge over the Hulk.
Don't be silly. Hulk can resist psychic attacks.
You can't very well psychic attack something that's mindless.
He wouldn't have to take big green and ugly down, just throw him off balance. That, plus his definite speed advantage would likely allow Aquaman to last longer than Namor. Namor is likely to try and go punch for punch...and let's face it, that ain't gonna' work.
Perhaps not YL, but you can screw with their brainstem and throw off their motor skills.
Did I say mindless? I meant brainless.
I think Aquaman could actually beat Hulk with words as long as he distracted him with pretty fishes to play with.
Hulk like pretty fishes...
Goldfish man is hulk friend...
AQUAMAN WINS!
Namor is just going to get himself beat silly or he simply lasts until either the Avengers/Fantastic Four show up to back him up. Basically Aquaman will probably put some thought into it and there is absolutely no way Namor will... he never does. Even a near mindless Hulk calling him Wet Face or Fishy Man would be enough to send Namor into a rage.
He's not really brainless. He DOES have a physical brain, and that is what Aquaman affects.
Haha..."Hulk! Look at the pretty lights of this lantern fish..."
"Oooooooooo"
Quote from: Previsionary on May 28, 2009, 08:19:50 PM
Quote from: Gremlin on May 28, 2009, 08:14:37 PM
Aquaman's psychic powers would definitely give him the edge over the Hulk.
Don't be silly. Hulk can resist psychic attacks.
Even attacks to pacify him?
now its hulk v.s aquaman? well on this one hulk hands down.regardless of aquamans mental ability that he falls back on in his battles/this thread, hulks resisted charles xavier and the leader.the leader can freeze you by stopping the mental impulses to a persons muscles.proved ineffective against the hulk.this one isnt really a fair match-up. taking away his mental advantage, fist to fist,speed against speed who would win? aquaman or namor.aquamans fan popularity dropped years back.all the jacked up powers and abilities was just to get fan interest back.as well as a new look.i'm a aquaman fan too but he cant beat everyone.thats part of his appeal.he may not be as strong as the guy he's fighting so that means he has to fight harder/smarter.that makes a good story.
Herodad...ha, reread that post. The question wasn't if Aquaman could beat Hulk, the question was who would last LONGER against Hulk. Neither Namor nor Arthur can win. Also, once again, Aquaman's powers really haven't been beefed up that much over the years, he's just been able to exercise them more fully once the restraints of the CCA were lifted.
So, who would win in a beer drinking contest? Aquaman or Namor? Which one can really drink like a fish?
I'm going with Namor. He has the whole superhuman metabolism thing.
Uh, namor has actually beaten the hulk. Twice I think. In one fight he got him underwater and speed blitzed him basically. This was a while back and he would lose the majority of matches out of 10 but he is no slouch. He's not up there with thor, hulk, gladiator, etc but he can trade a few blows with em, especially underwater.
Yeah, I remember that fight between Namor and Hulk underwater. It was back in the day when Hulk wasn't as ridiculous as he is these days. I point once again to the fight between Aquaman and took-superman-out-with-a-backhand Titus. I'd say that illustrates a similar level of power.
I admit I dont know much about aqua other than his DCAU showings(which were cool) but is it consistent for aquaman to fight guys at that level though? I mean Namor has fought a lot of marvel strongmen like the thing, hercules and wonderman and done well.
*shrug* It depends on the series. In Justice League he consistently fought strongmen and came out well, especially in Morrison's run. In the SAG run he was trouncing giant monsters and such. Heck, even in the Detroit League he went toe to toe with Amazo. In the more modern JLA run he COMPLETELY kicked the butt of Olympian, who is probably at least Hercules level.
I think Aquaman would stand a better chance against the Hulk. Only because he would think about the situation and try to find the best solution to deal with the hulk. Namor would go toe to toe and try to beat the Hulk up.
aw, i like both and dont care who would win.they both have that fishy smell. :lol: hey benton, what aquaman stories would you recommend? what issues did the titus thing happen in?maybe stories i could get in trade paper back/graphic novel type.youve got my aqua-juices flowing.must -read-more-aquaman!!!
Well, I speak at length about some good runs here:
http://frp.unlimited2.net/highlight-on-aquaman/#more-406
Check my response to question #2. In Justice League Classified, I believe that story arc was in the last...five issues (50-54). I'm glad that my babbling has caught your interest HD. I'm afraid that (as I say in that highlight) very few of Aquaman's adventures have been collected in trades. DC has treated him really, REALLY badly.
awile back you sent me a skope of ren's superman with alot of aqua skins.tried it today and gren's triton kfs work with it.
Yep, in the DCUG all of Aquaman and his supporting cast have both swimming and walking keys.
what herofile stats would you give him if the writer were to push him to his limits?
Well, how exactly do you mean, Bearded? If I were telling the story, Aquaman would eventually realize the full potential of his mental powers, and it would become evident that his really was the most powerful mind on the planet, able to pretty much do whatever he wants. Then he would retire from superheroing to rule Atlantis, so as not to abuse his power. Physically, pushed to his limits would probably look like his entry in the DCUG, bumped up a bit....:
Strength: 7-8
Speed: 6-7
Endurance: 6-7
Energy: 5-6
Agility: 5-7
Material: Wood
A good, solid punch dealing medium damage, along with a 3 hit combo doing the same. I also give him a direct mental attack that causes panic, but I've never been happy with the damage type. I give him an area attack, medium range that causes mind blank, and a passive defense that occasionally blocks a lot of damage types.
(I'll post more in a bit)
I love both heroes & as much as people are making a point about Aquaman mental powers, I think he would just go toe2toe with Namor, just like he has with anyother underwater villian.... & lose.
Okay, I have these two Champions hulking (literally) villains, Bewilderbeest and Blunderbus, who have as one of their disadvantages that they get "bewildered" occasionally. It works like Berzerk, except instead of running around and tearing things up you stand there and play with your bottom lip going "blub-blub-blub...". All you need to do is sufficiently outthink them, and they will be rendered non compus mentis for the rest of combat.
Bewilderbeest: "I ahm going to BEEET" Smacks fist into plam of hand, "you OPPP!" (Yes, they talk like that)
Heroguy: "No you aren't."
Bewilderbeest: "Yes, I ahm!"
Heroguy: "No you aren't."
Bewilderbeest: "Yes, I ahm!"
Heroguy: "No you aren't."
Bewilderbeest: "Yes, I ahm!"
Heroguy: "Yes you are."
Bewilderbeest: "No, I ahm not!"
Heroguy: "Yes you are."
Bewilderbeest: "No, I ahm not!"
Heroguy: "Okay, have it your way, you aren't."
Bewilderbeest's mental faculaties grind to a halt.
Namor is NOT a deep thinker, and one of the most arrogant so-and-sos to ever exclaim "Imperius Rex!", while all through the early JLA and his own book, Aquaman often had to figure out puzzels and problems that didn't necessarily involve taking to fish (or that was just a small part of it). Namor's first tactic is usually an attempt to overawe someone with some pithy saying while striking a dynamic Kirby pose. If that fails, he tries to overawe his opposition by beating the stew out of them.
Neither of these things is really going to work with The Hulk. They don't work with The Thing either.
So, Aquaman would treat The Hulk as a puzzle (as big, green, enourmously powerful puzzle), and try to come up with some way to remedy the situation, that may or may not involve talking to fish. I like the "Look at the pretty fish, Hulk" solution.
What I would like to see is Orca teaming up with Black Manta, and the two of them comming up with some skullduggery that each can blame of their own adversary. The two rulers meet, negotiate, get tricked into fighting, and after a few panels Namor says "Why do you not fight?" and Aquaman answers "Because I came her to neotiate a solution to the problem, not intesify it by making you an enemy," and after the third time or so he says something like that Namor finally hears him and they stop and compare notes. Then the rest of he adventure looks like some of those Aquaman stories by Steve Skeats where he explored the bottom of the ocean, and it ends with Orca and Manta in custody.
Third time? Namor's not an idiot. He usually asks who someone is before punching them. If he likes the answer he sometimes won't punch them.
Quote from: daglob on May 29, 2009, 07:57:55 PM
What I would like to see is Orca teaming up with Black Manta, and the two of them comming up with some skullduggery that each can blame of their own adversary. The two rulers meet, negotiate, get tricked into fighting, and after a few panels Namor says "Why do you not fight?" and Aquaman answers "Because I came her to neotiate a solution to the problem, not intesify it by making you an enemy," and after the third time or so he says something like that Namor finally hears him and they stop and compare notes. Then the rest of he adventure looks like some of those Aquaman stories by Steve Skeats where he explored the bottom of the ocean, and it ends with Orca and Manta in custody.
Yes...yes...Prev, why hasn't that adventure been done yet? ;)
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 29, 2009, 08:42:18 PM
Quote from: daglob on May 29, 2009, 07:57:55 PM
What I would like to see is Orca teaming up with Black Manta, and the two of them comming up with some skullduggery that each can blame of their own adversary. The two rulers meet, negotiate, get tricked into fighting, and after a few panels Namor says "Why do you not fight?" and Aquaman answers "Because I came her to neotiate a solution to the problem, not intesify it by making you an enemy," and after the third time or so he says something like that Namor finally hears him and they stop and compare notes. Then the rest of he adventure looks like some of those Aquaman stories by Steve Skeats where he explored the bottom of the ocean, and it ends with Orca and Manta in custody.
Yes...yes...Prev, why hasn't that adventure been done yet? ;)
I don't know who you are or why you think you can address me. Cease and desist, please.
the best portrayal of namor and his hot-temper and arrogance is on the newest fantastic four cartoon.the episode is called "imperious rex" !they nailed him.thats one of the traits of namors i like.kinda like a angry version of hercules.he gives you THE GIFT just because he likes you and thinks he's doing you a favor by punching your lights out.
Quote from: marhawkman on May 29, 2009, 08:42:00 PM
Third time? Namor's not an idiot. He usually asks who someone is before punching them. If he likes the answer he sometimes won't punch them.
Maybe Namor has mellowed in the past few years. He always seemed to me to shoot first and not really bother to ask questions later. He was not an idiot, just quick tempered, caused by an overwhelming bitterness and hate of the human race (which was somewhat justified).
Not much. but he does at least ask one or two questions first.
RIIIIISE!
I can't believe you guys let this die.
How do you think this would have been handled in the old crossovers, back when there was no dimension hopping - they just hadn't "run into each other" until that time (e.g. Supes and Spidey)?
I think they would stale-mate with Namor being King of Atlantis and Aquaman being King of the Seas - the great city versus the wilds/wastes. Aquaman would be a valuable ally but a constant threat to Namor. Who would use Aquaman's help while remaining suspicious and watchful.
BTW... those scenes with Aquaman dealing with War Maker 1 as he was retrieving the Shaggy Man were from the story that transformed General Eiling into the General (or as I liked to call him ... the Shaven Man.)
Never figured out which of the two Shaggy Men Eiling appropriated, or how he turned off the Shaggy Man's regeneration in his hair follicles, but...
Great thread.
And Benton's right. All hail the Benton!
I wonder what would happen if they fell in love :wub:
KENN! Long time no see, man.
I'd still like to hear what people think in regards to my previous post.
Namor & Aquaman are STILL fighting??? I thought they would have made up by now.
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on September 04, 2009, 08:21:32 PM
How do you think this would have been handled in the old crossovers, back when there was no dimension hopping - they just hadn't "run into each other" until that time (e.g. Supes and Spidey)?
I think they would stale-mate with Namor being King of Atlantis and Aquaman being King of the Seas - the great city versus the wilds/wastes. Aquaman would be a valuable ally but a constant threat to Namor. Who would use Aquaman's help while remaining suspicious and watchful.
I think there would have been some story difficulties to overcome. Sometime in the early-mid 1960s, Aquaman became heavily embroiled in Atlantis. Similarly, sometime in the 1960s was when it was finally established that Namor's undersea kingdom was Atlantis. So, it would have depended exactly when they did the story.
I think the easiest way to write the story would be to set it during the time that Namor was searching for his missing people, and have him find Poseidonos (as Aquaman's Atlantis came to be known) and wonder who these other sea dwellers were and what had they done with his people.
I have always thought it would be interesting to write a set of short stories melding DC and Marvel into a cohesive whole and still keep many of my favorite characters. I am thinking it would be necessary to start from scratch on the universe and build upwards, but some characters and groups would be harder than others. Keeping both Namor and Aquaman would be hard to explain the similarities and dissimilarities of the two characters, but I am having the same problem with Green Arrow/Hawkeye, Vision/Red Tornado, JLA/Avengers, and Doom Patrol/X-Men.
Aquaman
I'm not buying the "Aquaman as a powerful mentalist". From all the stuff that I have seen originally portrayed about the guy, his telepathy was limited to sea life. That hardly qualifies him as being a telepath on the level of Martian Manhunter, Charles Xavier or Jean Grey or any other major telepaths in comics. It's a major leap to say that his telepathy would ever be on the level of Professor X or even The White Queen.
No doubt that Aquaman is great at figuring stuff out, though. He is a good but not great tactician. I would say at least Batman and Wonder Woman are better at battle tactics than he is. If the JLA was not clogged with characters with equal or superior leadership skills then I would buy that him as the leader of the JLA. However, I can name three other characters who for one reason or another are better suited in a leadership role than Aquaman WITHOUT mentioning DC's BIG THREE. Aquaman should excel in the leadership role and were the team on his turf then he would.
Namor
I don't get why Namor is considered a "hero". It seems to me that he has been forced into that role moreso than Catwoman over in DC Comics (and a few other DC characters who have been forced into that role). Namor is, at best, an anti-hero. He is a loud, brash, allegedly human hating character (and for the most does hate humans) who is the complete antithesis of Aquaman. He is not much of a tactician. His leadership skills are negligible outside of "his people" and even then half of his people would just as quick serve Attuma.
Personally, I think Aquaman would be able to outsmart Namor unless Namor got the jump on him. In a fair fight, Aquaman would win. However, and this has been proven, Namor is more than willing to cheat.
Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on March 07, 2010, 02:12:08 AM
Aquaman
I'm not buying the "Aquaman as a powerful mentalist". From all the stuff that I have seen originally portrayed about the guy, his telepathy was limited to sea life. That hardly qualifies him as being a telepath on the level of Martian Manhunter, Charles Xavier or Jean Grey or any other major telepaths in comics. It's a major leap to say that his telepathy would ever be on the level of Professor X or even The White Queen.
No doubt that Aquaman is great at figuring stuff out, though. He is a good but not great tactician. I would say at least Batman and Wonder Woman are better at battle tactics than he is. If the JLA was not clogged with characters with equal or superior leadership skills then I would buy that him as the leader of the JLA. However, I can name three other characters who for one reason or another are better suited in a leadership role than Aquaman WITHOUT mentioning DC's BIG THREE. Aquaman should excel in the leadership role and were the team on his turf then he would.
Namor
I don't get why Namor is considered a "hero". It seems to me that he has been forced into that role moreso than Catwoman over in DC Comics (and a few other DC characters who have been forced into that role). Namor is, at best, an anti-hero. He is a loud, brash, allegedly human hating character (and for the most does hate humans) who is the complete antithesis of Aquaman. He is not much of a tactician. His leadership skills are negligible outside of "his people" and even then half of his people would just as quick serve Attuma.
Personally, I think Aquaman would be able to outsmart Namor unless Namor got the jump on him. In a fair fight, Aquaman would win. However, and this has been proven, Namor is more than willing to cheat.
Emphasis added. What exactly are you basing this on, Mr. Hammick? What is "original" in this sense? In the mid to early Silver Age, some five to ten years from his creation, his telepathy was already affecting humans. He was also shown as being able to contact sea creatures from vast distances and control literal armies of marine life. In the "original" Golden Age Aquaman stories, he had a different origin and explanation for his powers, though he was still powerful in his own right.
What is original? What is the importance of the original portrayal of a character with a seventy year+ history? When Superman was created, he couldn't fly, didn't have just about any of the powers he later developed, and was much weaker and much more vulnerable than he has been portrayed for the last, say, sixty years. In fact, it was some five + years before he took on the appearance, power list, and even the HISTORY that we recognize as Superman today. So, which is correct? Can we attach a term like "correct" to a fictional character? What is more important, the history of the character or his or her creator's original intent? I've got a fairly fluid approach to answering those questions, but if you have an easy answer, I'm plenty open to hearing it.
The fact is that, for the greater bulk of his history, Aquaman's telepathy has A) been able to affect humans, even if this detail has been forgotten about from time to time, and B) been extremely powerful in terms of range and scope. He can commands armies of sea creatures....well, it is impossible to quantify things like this, as I explained earlier, but using the shaky logic that we can apply to this type of question, it seems to me that this is evidence for a prodigious telepathic power and talent. Is he on the level of Martian Manhunter? Well, seventy years of stories have implied that, yes, he is, although he lacks the training or focus to manipulate his power in the same way.
As for his leadership abilities, well the man is a king, and the type of man that people are willing to follow. There is more to leadership than tactics. I've always loved this moment (which I posted earlier in this thread):
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8976/aquamanv614153ql.jpg
I'm interested who those other three characters you could name are, not that I'm necessarily saying you're wrong, simply pointing out other facets of the issue. I DO think that he's an indispensable member of the League because of his ability to hang with the heavy hitters, and because of his unique point of view.
I'm just going to add that Namor IS considered an anti-hero and has been considered one for much of his history. He's actually seen as one of the earliest comic anti-heroes... yes, before Wolverine and Punisher, and everyone knows by now that he'll switch sides whenever it's convenient to him, his people, or his family.
Secondly, aquaman is an antithesis of Namor. Namor came first. :P
Quote from: BentonGrey on March 07, 2010, 02:35:09 AM
Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on March 07, 2010, 02:12:08 AM
Aquaman
I'm not buying the "Aquaman as a powerful mentalist". From all the stuff that I have seen originally portrayed about the guy, his telepathy was limited to sea life. That hardly qualifies him as being a telepath on the level of Martian Manhunter, Charles Xavier or Jean Grey or any other major telepaths in comics. It's a major leap to say that his telepathy would ever be on the level of Professor X or even The White Queen.
No doubt that Aquaman is great at figuring stuff out, though. He is a good but not great tactician. I would say at least Batman and Wonder Woman are better at battle tactics than he is. If the JLA was not clogged with characters with equal or superior leadership skills then I would buy that him as the leader of the JLA. However, I can name three other characters who for one reason or another are better suited in a leadership role than Aquaman WITHOUT mentioning DC's BIG THREE. Aquaman should excel in the leadership role and were the team on his turf then he would.
Namor
I don't get why Namor is considered a "hero". It seems to me that he has been forced into that role moreso than Catwoman over in DC Comics (and a few other DC characters who have been forced into that role). Namor is, at best, an anti-hero. He is a loud, brash, allegedly human hating character (and for the most does hate humans) who is the complete antithesis of Aquaman. He is not much of a tactician. His leadership skills are negligible outside of "his people" and even then half of his people would just as quick serve Attuma.
Personally, I think Aquaman would be able to outsmart Namor unless Namor got the jump on him. In a fair fight, Aquaman would win. However, and this has been proven, Namor is more than willing to cheat.
Emphasis added. What exactly are you basing this on, Mr. Hammick? What is "original" in this sense? In the mid to early Silver Age, some five toi ten years from his creation, his telepathy was already affecting humans. He was also shown as being able to contact sea creatures from vast distances and control literal armies of marine life. In the "original" Golden Age Aquaman stories, he had a different origin and explanation for his powers, though he was still powerful in his own right.
What is original? What is the importance of the original portrayal of a character with a seventy year+ history? When Superman was created, he couldn't fly, didn't have just about any of the powers he later developed, and was much weaker and much more vulnerable than he has been portrayed for the last, say, sixty years. In fact, it was some five + years before he took on the appearance, power list, and even the HISTORY that we recognize as Superman today. So, which is correct? Can we attach a term like "correct" to a fictional character? What is more important, the history of the character or his or her creator's original intent? I've got a fairly fluid approach to answering those questions, but if you have an easy answer, I'm plenty open to hearing it.
The fact is that, for the greater bulk of his history, Aquaman's telepathy has A) been able to affect humans, even if this detail has been forgotten about from time to time, and B) been extremely powerful in terms of range and scope. He can commands armies of sea creatures....well, it is impossible to quantify things like this, as I explained earlier, but using the shaky logic that we can apply to this type of question, it seems to me that this is evidence for a prodigious telepathic power and talent. Is he on the level of Martian Manhunter? Well, seventy years of stories have implied that, yes, he is, although he lacks the training or focus to manipulate his power in the same way.
I don't think original versions of characters are necessarily the most important versions, but rather the "core" or definitive versions of characters are the ones we should base our views of them from. For Superman, flight and vision powers, and his origin, while not their from his creation, have become part of the definitive version of Superman. For Aquaman, powerful telepathy that has no fish-based limitations has not become part of his core character. Sure, it's been used that way a few times, but Namor has also had electric eel-based powers once or twice, and Superman had super-hypnosis.
Quote from: Talavar on March 07, 2010, 03:52:48 AM
I don't think original versions of characters are necessarily the most important versions, but rather the "core" or definitive versions of characters are the ones we should base our views of them from. For Superman, flight and vision powers, and his origin, while not their from his creation, have become part of the definitive version of Superman. For Aquaman, powerful telepathy that has no fish-based limitations has not become part of his core character. Sure, it's been used that way a few times, but Namor has also had electric eel-based powers once or twice, and Superman had super-hypnosis.
Actually, Talavar, as I've mentioned, Aquaman's powers having no hardcore fish-based limitation has been a fairly consistent part of his characterization for the last twenty-five to thirty years (thirty out of fifty, taking his Silver Age incarnation as a new creation), and not unprecedented before that. Superman had super-hypnosis for only about six or eight years, really. From him using his telepathy on several human beings without even batting an eye in the 80's when he was part of JLA: Detroit, to him consistently using his telepathy as an offensive weapon in Morrison's JLA run, there has been ample evidence of Aquaman being able to jump that boundary for decades.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2917/964/1600/notafish.jpg
It was around in the Silver Age, it was pretty consistent in the Bronze Age both in his own book and in JLA, and it is constant in the Modern Age. In JLA: Classified he did this a few times, and in the JLA books that featured him until his death, he made constant use of this power as well, battling the likes of Despero. Needless to say, his own books showcased this as well, with our much maligned hero being able to casually scan his teamate, Martian Manhunter's thoughts, invade the mind of an evil scientist, and do a whole lot more. Arthur being a POWERFUL telepath (in terms of scope and range), fish-based or otherwise, has been part of his character for seventy years, reaching all the way back to his creation in 1941.
What is the core?
I'd say the core of his character is that he's an incredibly powerful telepath who usually doesn't use his telepathy to affect humans, but who has been shown to be capable of such a feat. However, it
IS a feat for him in the early days, although why that is can be a subject for debate. Also, if there IS an overarching continuity to these characters, a certain amount of experience gain is both implicit and occasionally explicit in the way they act. Thus, his increased facility with his mental powers could certainly be explained from the simple fact that he's been doing it for years now, even in comic time.
I will say in comparison to the Martian Manhunter, I'm not sure when J'onn's mental powers became as powerful as they've seemed for the past decade or two.
As far as quantifying Aquaman's mental powers I think the problem faced is the brain twister of "he can affect a whole herd of whales at once but he can't affect a single human being" (which to me makes no sense), combined with a generation of people who grew up listening to Norm Alden (original and "All-New") and Bill Callaway ("Challenge of the..." on) refer to "my aquatic telepathy."
Quote from: BentonGrey on March 07, 2010, 02:35:09 AM
Emphasis added. What exactly are you basing this on, Mr. Hammick? What is "original" in this sense? In the mid to early Silver Age, some five toi ten years from his creation, his telepathy was already affecting humans. He was also shown as being able to contact sea creatures from vast distances and control literal armies of marine life. In the "original" Golden Age Aquaman stories, he had a different origin and explanation for his powers, though he was still powerful in his own right.
What is original? What is the importance of the original portrayal of a character with a seventy year+ history? When Superman was created, he couldn't fly, didn't have just about any of the powers he later developed, and was much weaker and much more vulnerable than he has been portrayed for the last, say, sixty years. In fact, it was some five + years before he took on the appearance, power list, and even the HISTORY that we recognize as Superman today. So, which is correct? Can we attach a term like "correct" to a fictional character? What is more important, the history of the character or his or her creator's original intent? I've got a fairly fluid approach to answering those questions, but if you have an easy answer, I'm plenty open to hearing it.
The fact is that, for the greater bulk of his history, Aquaman's telepathy has A) been able to affect humans, even if this detail has been forgotten about from time to time, and B) been extremely powerful in terms of range and scope. He can commands armies of sea creatures....well, it is impossible to quantify things like this, as I explained earlier, but using the shaky logic that we can apply to this type of question, it seems to me that this is evidence for a prodigious telepathic power and talent. Is he on the level of Martian Manhunter? Well, seventy years of stories have implied that, yes, he is, although he lacks the training or focus to manipulate his power in the same way.
First of all, it amazes me that you of all people are using that argument. The same guy who has indicated elsewhere that he felt the the Timmiverse was the end all, be all and ultimately correct portrayal of a character as oppose to say... a live action movie interpretation. I am speaking in particular with regards to the Catwoman discussion.
Generally, I consider The Silver Age version to be the "core" with regards to most of the DC characters. Most of the DC characters were altered significantly during 50s and 60s for better or worse. (Even Batman was altered in a few ways.) With Aquaman, it's always seemed to me that the times where his telepathy had "some degree of effect on humans" were a stretch by writers who didn't know what else to do with his telepathy powers. In the past, Aquaman's telepathy having an effect on humans was on the basis of "humans that evolved from sea life" not "all humans". The telepathic powers were and always have been centered around his connection to the sea.
Furthermore, DC has made a point of where there was "Arthur Joseph" and "Orin" who have both had the mantle of Aquaman. I'm going moreso with the version portrayed in the early to mid 60s.
However, the point of my argument is the usage of his telepathy by the potency of it and the potential. Martian Manhunter is a horrid example but he was the only hero in the DCU who I could recall having telepathy offhand. My point is neither Martian Manhunter nor Aquaman are nor should be on the level of telepaths like Professor X or Emma Frost over at Marvel. It doesn't fit the "DCU". The only villain (that I recall offhand) is a "major telepath" is Hector Hammond and he is completely paralyzed physically.
In your earlier post, Benton, you said
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 29, 2009, 05:29:50 PM
If I were telling the story, Aquaman would eventually realize the full potential of his mental powers, and it would become evident that his really was the most powerful mind on the planet, able to pretty much do whatever he wants. Then he would retire from superheroing to rule Atlantis, so as not to abuse his power. Physically, pushed to his limits would probably look like his entry in the DCUG, bumped up a bit....:
Which I wholeheartedly call BS on. Even if he was to realize the full extent of his mental powers, I don't think he would be the "most powerful mind" in the DCU. There are characters who are already at that point (and no, I don't consider Martian Manhunter near that point) and who are suffering the consequences in some cases. There is a big difference between reading minds and putting thoughts into one's mind and the idea of mind control and mentally altering another person's mind. Ask Matt Parkman.
Could Aquaman's powers be developed further under the right writer? Yes. And they should. And it should be done in a way makes sense.
Should they be developed to the level of "Professor X" or "Emma Frost"? No.
Again, Aquaman is at best equal to Martian Manhunter as far as telepathy. Where Martian Manhunter surpasses him is the way in which he uses it. (I am thinking from a tactical standpoint.)
Are you the right person to write Aquaman? Clearly not. You'd write him practically out of existence. Just like I am not the right person to let anywhere near a Batman story.
Quote from: BentonGrey on March 07, 2010, 02:35:09 AM
As for his leadership abilities, well the man is a king, and the type of man that people are willing to follow. There is more to leadership than tactics. I've always loved this moment (which I posted earlier in this thread):
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8976/aquamanv614153ql.jpg
I'm interested who those other three characters you could name are, not that I'm necessarily saying you're wrong, simply pointing out other facets of the issue. I DO think that he's an indispensable member of the League because of his ability to hang with the heavy hitters, and because of his unique point of view.
I fully agree that there is more to leadership than tactics. My point in mentioning tactics specifically is that its the area where Aquaman is arguably weakest. Mind you, I am talking land tactics. IF you need underwater tactics then he is your guy.
As for the three other than The Big Three.
1) Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) - Should go without saying. I will add in that he has proven himself capable of leading in combat situations with regards to tactical strategies.
2) Green Arrow
3) Oracle - My rationale on this goes back to information and tactics. She is the information center for the League.
Mind you, we are talking about leading a team of Superheroes into major combat or at best handing a major catastrophe. We are not talking about simple things like patrol duty of a city. Or round up a small time street gang or group of non-powered thugs.
I am not trying to argue that Aquaman isn't an indispensable part of the League. However, he is arguably one of the major members of the League whose role in the League is the worst defined. Again, I am basing this on what I have read of his appearances in the Justice League comics, JLA, Superfriends, and and some (admitted few) of his solo title.
I suspect that most of his solo appearances portray him differently than his usage in the Justice League titles. Which cements my point.
Quote from: Previsionary on March 07, 2010, 02:44:30 AM
Secondly, aquaman is an antithesis of Namor. Namor came first. :P
I think everyone knows I prefer DC to Marvel. :P
you both make a lot of interesting points, and about half fly above my head
so i don't know the character well enough, but i just wanted to ask about aquaman's telepathy: wasn't Aquaman "powerful" mind a major plot in Alex Ross' Justice? I'm pretty sure Brainiac had him detained to study his mind/brain because of its potential or something.
I've always seen aquaman as a generic telepath wo had a specialty in sea life (manipulation hordes of fishes is a special exercise, coordinating their movement and such) so it was a just a matter of "how they think" (explaining why he affected human evolved from fish more easily). Now if he was to train himself and learn the human mind to know it as much as he knows sea-life minds, he could be pretty powerful, and maybe too powerfull (i agree that phoeniw/xavier telepath who can control hugue crowd of people is not the way to go for aquaman)
You talk about sea-limitation, i've always understood it as sea-specialisation (then again i wasn't contaminated by "superfriend" when i was young). Same goes for his strengh. A lot of people think of him a human-strong at beast then when splashed with water or underwater he become somewhat strong. For me it always was somewhat strong in the begining (able to lift a car but not a truck) and if reinforced by water insanely strong (not superman level, but maybe between wonderwoman and martian manhunter)
As for the "core" version of characters, i think we can agree that there is none. Each generation and even each individual has his own "core" version of popular character. It depends on what version you liked the most, and just what version you saw first.
For example: a lot of people consider Chritopher Reeve to be superman; but me i saw the movies way after, and for my brother and i superman will always be be Dean Cain. And still going, my younger sister got interested in superman only thanks to Smallville, and that "her" core character.
If you're talking about "generally accepted as" core character, i'm not sure it as a lot of weight. In 5 years (lets say after the JLA movie) a lot of characters could be reinterpreted by a lot of people.
In a straight up, man-y-mano fight, Aquaman would get his clock cleaned, no matter what. Namor vastly outclasses him in strength and durability, and that's not even factoring in the fact Namor can fly.
However, in a fight that involved tactics rather than a toe to toe throwdown or troops, I'd give it to Aquaman. Because Namor is arrogant and tends to head into things without thinking and Marvel Atlanteans are idiots whose loyalty flip-flops at the drop of a hat.
Aquaman's telepathy should NOT be able to have any major effect on humans or be hard to resist. If I remember correctly, back during the Justice League Detroit days he used it on someone (Vibe?) and ended up explaining he doesn't do for moral reasons and because its stressful to use it on humans. Any other telepathic hero - DC or Marvel - should be able to thrash Aquaman in a telepathic fight.....unless they're both using it on fish.
One thing that should be taken into account about Aquaman's telepathy is it's ability to cross into all aquatic species regardless of species types. It includes mammals, fish, mollusks, and crustaceans and have even been shown to work on alien aquatic species, and I have seen comics were it has had a limited capacity on humans. It is possible that the limitation on aquatic animals might be some sort of sub-conscious thing, and he is could be a powerful telepathy as far as range and scope, but I don't see him having the telepathic focus that more dedicated telepaths would have.
Quote from: Trelau on March 07, 2010, 10:51:35 AM
As for the "core" version of characters, i think we can agree that there is none. Each generation and even each individual has his own "core" version of popular character. It depends on what version you liked the most, and just what version you saw first.
For example: a lot of people consider Chritopher Reeve to be superman; but me i saw the movies way after, and for my brother and i superman will always be be Dean Cain. And still going, my younger sister got interested in superman only thanks to Smallville, and that "her" core character.
If you're talking about "generally accepted as" core character, i'm not sure it as a lot of weight. In 5 years (lets say after the JLA movie) a lot of characters could be reinterpreted by a lot of people.
Core versions of character do change over time, but it generally takes quite a while. Look at your 3 examples of Superman - how different are they really? They have the same powers (though Reeve-Superman still has a little bit of that "I make up new powers as necessary" holdover from the Silver Age), they have the same values, the same origin, mostly the same supporting cast, villains, etc. Contrast the three of them (produced over a period of 30 years) to Superman as he was originally created, and you have a character who is different in almost every one of those respects.
What do namor and aquaman eat? Has that question been answered? I mean...if you could telepathically call to fish is it fair to eat them?
Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on March 08, 2010, 12:32:35 AM
One thing that should be taken into account about Aquaman's telepathy is it's ability to cross into all aquatic species regardless of species types. It includes mammals, fish, mollusks, and crustaceans and have even been shown to work on alien aquatic species, and I have seen comics were it has had a limited capacity on humans. It is possible that the limitation on aquatic animals might be some sort of sub-conscious thing, and he is could be a powerful telepathy as far as range and scope, but I don't see him having the telepathic focus that more dedicated telepaths would have.
Which raises the question: Since Namor is 50% water-dwelling creature, would Aquaman's mental powers be at near/full effectiveness against him?
I would say it depends on the writer and how much of him being a mutant would affect that. But Benton can link you some pic from some comic where Aquaman uses it on I think Attuma and some others and Namor said it gave him a headache or something like that.
4th issue of JLA/Avengers.
since this debates still raging ive thought about a few other points.first off i like BOTH characters about the same so i'm not bias toward either one but lets throw telepathy out the window for a minute.she-hulk kicked aquamans butt.she's not as strong as the hulk but namor has stood toe-to-toe with the hulk and held his own using not just muscle but his brains also because he cant stand up to the hulk for long.he had to cheat and trick to get the upperhand.in the marvel v.s dc story lines it was established that aquaman couldnt stand up to the submariners might and they both were under water.in a man-to-man toe-to-toe fight with no telepathy i'd go with namor.also no dropping killer whales either.
In one comic, I saw Aquaman eat a hotdog; so, I assume he can eat the full range that humans do, but I wonder how they cook their food. Can you imagine having nothing to eat but sushi all of the time?
When I went to the site where I check these things it say's that the current aquaman has a black lantern, so that might give him an edge. Otherwise...
QuoteThe Sub-Mariner
Namor
F) In40
A) Rm30
S) Mn75
E) Am50
R) Ty6
I) Rm30
P) In40
Health: 195 Karma: 76
Resources: Rm Pop: -5
Known Powers:
Atlantean Physiology: Namor is an Atlantean, whose very body gives him the following abilities:
-Body Armor: Gd protection vs. Physical
-Resistance to Cold: Ex
-Swimming: Gd waterspeed
-Flight: Pr airspeed
-Water Breathing
-Water Freedom: Namor doesn't suffer penalties in underwater battles and is +1cs Fighting, Strength and Endurance
Equipment:
None
Limitations:
Dehydration: Namor is in constant danger of dehydrating. If not immersed in water or kept in a damp environment, he suffers a -1CS to all FEAT rolls for each hour. If totally deprived of moisture, he loses 1 Health point per hour. Immersion in water restores any Health lost to Dehydration immediately.
Talents: Edged Weapons, Undersea life, Martial Arts B, Wrestling
Contacts: Atlantis, Invaders, Fantastic Four, Avengers
Quote
Aquaman
Orin/Arthur Curry
F) Am50
A) Rm30
S) Mn75
E) Am50
R) Gd10
I) Ex20
P) In40
Health: 205 Karma: 70
Resources: Rm Pop: 30
Known Powers:
Atlantean Physiology: Aquaman's very body gives him the following abilities:
-Body Resistance: Ex resistance to Physical
-Resistance to Cold: Un
-Hyper Swimming: Rm
-Water Freedom: Orin doesn't suffer penalties in underwater battles and receives +1cs Fighting, Endurance and Strength.
-Water Breathing: Aquaman is amphibious and can breathe both air and water.
-Ultra Vision: Rm
Telepathy (Marine Life only): Un to talk to or control sea life. He can also perform the following power stunts:
-Sonar Location: Am
Equipment:
None
Weakness:
Dehydration: Aquaman needs to immerse himself in water for at least an hour every 24 hrs to keep his powers and stats at peak levels. For every two (2) hours past that point, reduce all his physical stats and powers 1 rank. This affects his Health too. One (1) hour's immersion in water will immediately restore all lost ranks and health.
Talents: Royalty, Ocean Life, Oceanography, Martial Arts B, Pilot, Leadership, Bi-Lingual (English, Atlantean), Diplomacy, Resist Domination, Marine Biology, Underwater Combat
Contacts: Tempest, Vulko, Mera, Dolphin, Lagoon Boy, Justice League
VS
What is funny is that this dude makes aquaman more powerful than submariner, which might be true, a weak DC hero is probably as potent as a marvel heavyweight.
If those stats are accurate, it would be a close fight either way. I know enough to know that comes from the TSR Marvel rpg, but I have never played it; so, my interpretation of the stats could be way off.
here's something interesting: when J'onn needed a telepath's help to defeat Despero his first choice was Aquaman. This suggests that Aquaman DOES have great psionic potential. It's just that the "wavelength" of his telepathy makes it difficult to use on non-aquatic lifeforms.
Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on March 10, 2010, 03:19:13 PM
In one comic, I saw Aquaman eat a hotdog; so, I assume he can eat the full range that humans do, but I wonder how they cook their food. Can you imagine having nothing to eat but sushi all of the time?
Mmmm. Unagi! Sadly, Unagi is river eel. I don't know how the eels in the Atlantic are.
Quote from: lugaru on March 10, 2010, 04:04:28 PM
When I went to the site where I check these things it say's that the current aquaman has a black lantern, so that might give him an edge. Otherwise...
QuoteThe Sub-Mariner
Namor
F) In40
A) Rm30
S) Mn75
E) Am50
R) Ty6
I) Rm30
P) In40
Health: 195 Karma: 76
Resources: Rm Pop: -5
Known Powers:
Atlantean Physiology: Namor is an Atlantean, whose very body gives him the following abilities:
-Body Armor: Gd protection vs. Physical
-Resistance to Cold: Ex
-Swimming: Gd waterspeed
-Flight: Pr airspeed
-Water Breathing
-Water Freedom: Namor doesn't suffer penalties in underwater battles and is +1cs Fighting, Strength and Endurance
Equipment:
None
Limitations:
Dehydration: Namor is in constant danger of dehydrating. If not immersed in water or kept in a damp environment, he suffers a -1CS to all FEAT rolls for each hour. If totally deprived of moisture, he loses 1 Health point per hour. Immersion in water restores any Health lost to Dehydration immediately.
Talents: Edged Weapons, Undersea life, Martial Arts B, Wrestling
Contacts: Atlantis, Invaders, Fantastic Four, Avengers
Quote
Aquaman
Orin/Arthur Curry
F) Am50
A) Rm30
S) Mn75
E) Am50
R) Gd10
I) Ex20
P) In40
Health: 205 Karma: 70
Resources: Rm Pop: 30
Known Powers:
Atlantean Physiology: Aquaman's very body gives him the following abilities:
-Body Resistance: Ex resistance to Physical
-Resistance to Cold: Un
-Hyper Swimming: Rm
-Water Freedom: Orin doesn't suffer penalties in underwater battles and receives +1cs Fighting, Endurance and Strength.
-Water Breathing: Aquaman is amphibious and can breathe both air and water.
-Ultra Vision: Rm
Telepathy (Marine Life only): Un to talk to or control sea life. He can also perform the following power stunts:
-Sonar Location: Am
Equipment:
None
Weakness:
Dehydration: Aquaman needs to immerse himself in water for at least an hour every 24 hrs to keep his powers and stats at peak levels. For every two (2) hours past that point, reduce all his physical stats and powers 1 rank. This affects his Health too. One (1) hour's immersion in water will immediately restore all lost ranks and health.
Talents: Royalty, Ocean Life, Oceanography, Martial Arts B, Pilot, Leadership, Bi-Lingual (English, Atlantean), Diplomacy, Resist Domination, Marine Biology, Underwater Combat
Contacts: Tempest, Vulko, Mera, Dolphin, Lagoon Boy, Justice League
VS
The thing is, the site you pulled this from is a fan site. I sincerely doubt that there was ever a TSR Marvel Super-Heroes supplement that covered the Justice League and was actually approved by DC editorial.
I also take the stats I've seen for Marvel characters put into the old Mayfair DC / Blood of Heroes system with a grain of salt, because again, they are fan interpretations not approved by the Marvel editors.
The fan who produced this thinks Namor and Aquaman are essentially physical equals. And I know very few people who think that. Not even Aquafans like me.
Yeah. No way Aquaman is anywhere Namor's strength level. I'd say at most he's probably closer to Spider-Man.
Come to think of it. I've seen Namor go two to two with the likes of the Thing and Ironman. I just don't think Aquaman would last long against those guys.
Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on March 11, 2010, 06:03:10 AM
Come to think of it. I've seen Namor go two to two with the likes of the Thing and Ironman. I just don't think Aquaman would last long against those guys.
*Facepalm!*
Did you people not bother to read this thread? Seriously, you're going to make me do this AGAIN? Alright, I'm just copying and pasting my own post:
And I'll add some new ones as well. We've got Aquaman staggering Amazo, who, as we know, is as tough as Superman:
(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/5503/picture002w.th.png) (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/picture002w.png/)
And fighting a giant, rampaging monster, which he is blitzing AFTER he just exhausted himself forcing it to release his sidekick:
(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2556/picture003.th.png) (http://img127.imageshack.us/i/picture003.png/)
Aquaman has Despero, yet ANOTHER god-like being, on the ropes for a while, AND he's the one whom MM calls on to aid him, as someone pointed out earlier:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/546/aquamanvsdespero046th.jpg
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 23, 2009, 03:53:49 AM
The later is precisely what I was implying, although I imagine that is certainly no mean feat! One stat I've heard quoted places Aquaman at 2000 fps in the water.
A few interesting speed things:
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3976/aquamanspeedfeat24qm1.jpg
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/272/aquamanspeedfeat04gh0.jpg
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3153/aquamanspeedfeat26mz5.jpg
A few of my favorite strength moments (there are many more ostentatious displays, but these are just cool):
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1554/aquamanannual199722ei8.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1921/aquamandurabilityfeat05zs8.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8976/aquamanv614153ql.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8172/aquamanv632131vp.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4875/aquamanv635165ym.jpg
Storming Hades itself...PAD's run has a few saving graces:
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/109/aquamanv546106ea.jpg
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/8625/aquamanv546112kb.jpg
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/5140/aquamanv546123ws.jpg
The Namor encounter I mentioned:
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/3368/jlavengers04339yb.jpg
:EDIT: My mistake, make that 20,000 fps.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 23, 2009, 08:36:38 PM
*shrug* As I said, those weren't necessarily the top end, and I'm not really arguing that Aquaman is as strong as Namor, I don't really think he is. I don't think he's necessarily as strong as Wonder Woman either, but that doesn't mean that he isn't as powerful as they are. All in all, I'd back him against either. As for Namor decking the Hulk...well, here is Aquaman decking Shaggy Man, easily in Hulk's class:
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6986/picture001m.th.png) (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/picture001m.png/)
Remember the episode of JLU with the League going up against the General? Well, in the comics, the General was a shaved Shaggy Man, just to give you some context.
And another favorite moment of mine:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/tgtmarvel/jla-004-10.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/tgtmarvel/jla-004-11.jpg
Morisson did alright by Aquaman.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 27, 2009, 01:49:09 AM
Namor is tougher? Spoken with conviction I see. Ahh...you're going to make me back up what I said about Aquaman's toughness, hmm?
Able to withstand incredible pressure...of course:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7194/aquamanagainst800atmospheres4d.jpg
Aquaman takes on the Deep Six, six, count 'em SIX class 100 bruisers who gave Orion a run for his money. Arthur takes the best they've got and still puts them down. He did have his "son" Koryak (can't stand the character) to help him, but still...that's two against six. Slig at least is on She Hulk's level, and they are all likely higher.
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/7595/aquamanv508083it.jpg
Taking fire from a hi-tech weapon:
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5086/aquamanfightsblind021kj.jpg
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9571/aquamanfightsblind038me.jpg
Surviving a big torpedo strike (in style):
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8906/aquamansurvivesatorpedo015zr.jpg
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/7272/aquamansurvivesatorpedo027ql.jpg
A little more:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1227/jla02511tl7.jpg (ouch)
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/3523/jla02512is4.jpg (bulletproof)
Right after this he jumps all the way back down to the ground, taking that water guy out in the process.
Takes a GIANT blast from a huge Starro:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/849/jla23pg13kt0.jpg (Which knocks Orion flat out)
Not only does he survive, but he's right back in the fight:
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/2360/jla23pg16mw9.jpg
Trades blows with King Shark, who has played fisticuffs with Superboy on a number of occasions:
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3332/swordofatlantis46page14zu4.jpg
And one of my favorites, Aquaman takes on the UNBELIEVABLY powerful Titus:
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/2087/jlaclassified53011ij4.jpg
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/210/jlaclassified53012wu9.jpg (The narration says he lasts a minute against this guy, but just for some context, about a page back Titus casually knocked Superman across a continent. The fact that he was still alive after this encounter speaks volumes.)
I'm not saying Aquaman is tougher, in fact, I rather suspect the opposite, but I am saying that it is anything but cut and dried.
Quite simply, Aquaman may not be quite as strong as Namor, in terms of raw lifting power, but he's not very far off. He's regularly hefted huge weights, both in and out of the water. More importantly, he DEFINITELY outclasses Namor in speed, and his telepathy would naturally affect the Prince of the Blood, after all he was able to cripple every being on earth for a few minutes during a telepathic battle with a foe who had powers similar to his. He sent halfbreeds into a daze and nearly sent the Atlantians into a coma:
http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/1962/aquamandoestelepathicbattle017.jpg
(Hundreds of miles away, sea life is going absolutely nuts, and swamp ships, etc.)
And we'll toss in a few more, just for giggles:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8476/aquamanv534194qv.jpg (Taking out a LITERAL mythological god)
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5887/aquamanv633171uc.jpg (strength AND speed, Aquaman blows straight through metal and stone, dodging artillery fire all the while)
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6127/aquamanv157073fi.jpg (an early strength feat, swinging a huge anchor)
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7088/jlavengers02064rl.jpg (If you insist on talking about that stupid first crossover, well here you go. Aquaman seems to be going toe to toe with Iron Man, look at that.)
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3102/jlav311216wf3.jpg (leading a team of second stringers that stalemates the CSA AND taking on Ultraman)
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4129/aquamanstrengthfeat14ux9.jpg (knocking out Superboy)
I'll respond to Hammick's post later, but I just thought I'd remind people that I've ALREADY talked about all this stuff. :P
never knew how aquaman lost his hand.
According to DC Comics Database, Aquaman can lift in excess of tens of thousands of tons, when properly hydrated. Namor can lift 100 tons... Maybe a little more, if hydrated. Aquaman beats him with a flick. Plus, Aquaman is said to be faster than The Flash underwater, and has all other kinds of cheap stuff.
As time passes, the guys over at DC just make their characters more and more ridiculously god-like. There is just no comparing them with Marvel characters anymore.
If you're comparing the more classic versions of the characters, before DC went bat*** with their characters, then yes, Namor hands Aquaman his backside. But, if its modern Aquaman X modern Namor, Aquaman wins, and he doesn't even need his telepathic what-the-hell to do it.
Oh! Almost forgot. If they're fighting on land (but who would want to see a fight between those two anywhere other than the dephs of the ocean?), Namor would have the edge, because he is not as weakened as Aquaman is by dehydration.
because of those stats there should never be a dc v.s marvel.in the dc universe batmans about as strong as marvels luke cage.subby does get weaker as his body dehydrates.thats why when fighting on land everyone tries to keep him away from water. benton..my hats off to you bud.you are the ultimate aquaman fan. :thumbup:
The thing is, none of this matters. Not because these are just comic book characters, but because a new writer may take over the series and decide to make Aquaman the son of Posieden (and he will really have "godlike" powers), or that that Namo loses al his powers out of water (reducing him to baseline human stats), to heck with tho continuity (cuz none of that matters anyway), and in a cuple of years another writer will take over the series an complety re-do the character again .
I don't mind it when a character develops and changes over time, but total re-writes...
And I really think that Namor and Aquaman are pretty much evenly matched when you take all their strengths and weaknesses into account. But that would depend on the writer, and who he WANTED to win.
That DC Comics Database can't be right. If Aquaman was that strong, he'd outclass just about every Marvel hero, including the Hulk, Hercules and Thor. And there's no way Aquaman could be faster than the Flash underwater. The Flash can run faster than the speed of light, and I don't recall any stories where Aquaman swam to the other side of the planet instantaneously.
If they really have upped his power levels THAT much, methinks they've gone too far.
Quote from: GhostMachine on March 11, 2010, 01:31:40 PM
That DC Comics Database can't be right. If Aquaman was that strong, he'd outclass just about every Marvel hero, including the Hulk, Hercules and Thor. And there's no way Aquaman could be faster than the Flash underwater. The Flash can run faster than the speed of light, and I don't recall any stories where Aquaman swam to the other side of the planet instantaneously.
If they really have upped his power levels THAT much, methinks they've gone too far.
I tend to agree. The thing about these vs threads is lots of really excessive stuff tends to get paraded about that makes me like the characters less. I've always preferred characters a little less crazy excessive that use what they've got well. That's one thing I really liked about the Timmverse. Superman, Wonder Woman I really really like in concept but often not so much in execution. Timmverse Aquaman is just about right for me. He definitely won me over in the scene where he sacrificed his hand for his son and how he acted afterwards.
Since I like this guy I guess that's why I don't like the telepathic control over humans which I regard a essentially an evil power. I find Martian Manhunter much better in the cartoon because no mind control also. J'onn is the poster boy for uncontrolled power creep combined with nerfing because he's so powerful anyway. What a waste.
Anyway Aquaman and Namor would be a good fight. I'd give a little edge to Aquaman because of his resolve and cleverness but I could see it going either way. Aquagod takes it easily but what's the fun in that?
Well, they gotta do what they gotta do so Aquaman can roll with the big boys.
I think it must be a conscience thing, like DC is trying to redeem itself for making Aquaman so weak on that Super Friends crap-show.
Sorry, Ghost Machine. I meant Aquaman can swim faster than the Flash; not swim faster than the Flash can run.
Also, he is not stronger than any of those guys you mentioned. Hulk, Hercules and Thor have immeasurable strength. What with Hulk holding a montain weighting one-hundred MILLION tons to keep it from squashing the Avengers; Hercules being strong enough to toss Godzilla, and Thor being stronger than them both.
Aquaman is just stronger than any Marvel powerhouse that is not godlike/DC-esque.
Please take anything at the DC Comics Database (or any of the related comics Databases) with a grain of salt approximately the size of the Argo City asteroid folks.
Quote from: Blitzgott on March 11, 2010, 02:29:56 PM
Well, they gotta do what they gotta do so Aquaman can roll with the big boys.
I think it must be a conscience thing, like DC is trying to redeem itself for making Aquaman so weak on that Super Friends crap-show.
Sorry, Ghost Machine. I meant Aquaman can swim faster than the Flash; not swim faster than the Flash can run.
Also, he is not stronger than any of those guys you mentioned. Hulk, Hercules and Thor have immeasurable strength. What with Hulk holding a montain weighting one-hundred MILLION tons to keep it from squashing the Avengers; Hercules being strong enough to toss Godzilla, and Thor being stronger than them both.
Aquaman is just stronger than any Marvel powerhouse that is not godlike/DC-esque.
Umm... Thor being stronger than them both? Hulk is strongest. Thor and Herc were always even strength wise. But never stronger than Hulk.
We all know that if Spiderman can take on Firelord, he'd probably wipe the floor with Superman or be able to take down Namor and Aquaman at once (which is to say, these things are never decided in a vaccuum and that it's all subjective, depending on what the writer's agenda is).
Quote from: Blitzgott on March 11, 2010, 02:29:56 PM
Well, they gotta do what they gotta do so Aquaman can roll with the big boys.
I think it must be a conscience thing, like DC is trying to redeem itself for making Aquaman so weak on that Super Friends crap-show.
Sorry, Ghost Machine. I meant Aquaman can swim faster than the Flash; not swim faster than the Flash can run.
Also, he is not stronger than any of those guys you mentioned. Hulk, Hercules and Thor have immeasurable strength. What with Hulk holding a montain weighting one-hundred MILLION tons to keep it from squashing the Avengers; Hercules being strong enough to toss Godzilla, and Thor being stronger than them both.
Aquaman is just stronger than any Marvel powerhouse that is not godlike/DC-esque.
But has the Flash ever actually been shown swimming? He runs so fast he can run across water, so there's no real need for him to have to swim.
And the Hulk thing with the mountain, he wasn't lifting the mountain so much as he was bracing it so it wouldnt crush him and the other heroes trapped underneath it. Still impressive but not as big a feat of strength as if he was actually lifting it.
And everyone should know the two rules of comparing superheroes:
1. Throw out both characters' greatest feat of strength/awesomeness.
2. Throw out both characters' weakest appearance/feat of lameness.
So with this in mind, beating Firelord gets thrown out when comparing Spider-man to anyone, and losing to Spider-man gets tossed when comparing Firelord to anyone. It's just a simple way to eliminate a lot of author fiat.
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4797/dvm22.jpg)
and no that wasn't one of the moronic fan voted outcomes.
Doesn't mean it wasn't moronic though. Probably more so.
When did Aquaman develop a sense of humor. The last time I read anything with him Batman could have given him tips on lightening up.
Quote from: Previsionary on March 13, 2010, 10:36:07 PM
Doesn't mean it wasn't moronic though. Probably more so.
mate, when the book has wolverine beating lobo, that page with namor and aquaman can be classed as pulitzer prize winning writing. at least it makes sense
wolverine beating lobo??????!!!!!!!!
Dude, you have to give me some of the stuff you're somking, LOL!
Anyway, I though it would end up as a tie. I can't believe this topic has been going on for so long now.
Lobo, in case no one ever noticed is a bit of of a psychopath and a nihilist. Remember, he engineered a virus to kill off the rest of the Czarnian race.
He didn't so much lose to Wolverine as he threw the fight, so as to have a hand in having his whole universe destroyed (and probably assuming he, himself, would live through it.)
It is hard comparing two characters from different books but the same company, but when comparing two characters from completely different companies, comparison is beyond difficult. The main problem is that different fictional universes have different rules of physics and metaphysics. You are basically trying to compare apples to motorboats. Aquaman will always have the advantage in th DC universe and Namor will have the advantage in the Marvel universe. To compare them, you'll have to establish a third neutral universe in which to place them. I may not be the best person to establish the rules of that universe, but it seems that their are several issues that needs to be taken into account: raw strength, combat training, attitude, overall cleverness, actual powers, and actual powers.
In all cases, we should make judgments based on either the mean or the average and declare the extreme edges to being either just a good day or bad day, depending on circumstances and point of view. Raw strength should be based on how much a character can lift and how often he can lift it, and on this issue, both characters seems to be to close too give either a decided advantage.
For combat skills, Namor is an aggressive fighter and his Atlantis is a much more warlike society than is Aquaman's Atlantis; consequently, I feel that Namor would have multiple styles of martial arts available to him, and he would probably be trained in the better systems. Aquaman's Atlantis doesn't seem to produce as many good fighters; so, whatever passes as martial arts will be retarded in comparison to Namor's Atlantis, and besides, Aquaman does not show any particular combat training apart from experience, raw talent, and persistence. In a straightforward slug fest, I feel that Namor has the advantage.
For overall cleverness, Aquaman has the advantage. He is regularly shown coming up with clever solutions to take down much more powerful foes. Namor, on the other hand, is all arrogance and aggressiveness. If Aquaman could sucker Namor into a game of cat and mouse, Aquaman could beat him.
If you are talking about two kings waging war, you would have to look the available resource mainly the overall power of the different cultures and they availability of outside friends and allies within the super community. Namor's Altantis seems much more combat disciplined and more loyal to their king than does Aquaman's. If the two societies were to wage war, Namor could send Aquaman's people running...swimming for the hills. ather quickly. Where Aquaman has an advantage is that he actually has reliable friends and allies in the super community. He could probably easily pull in the Justice League or the Titans. Namor doesn't have many real friends and a few shaky allies, at best. The Fantastic Four and Avengers would probably just as likely support Aquaman as Namor and the Defenders would probably stay neutral.
I admit my assessments are based on silver age standards, and I am not an expert with either character. I welcome a review by those who know the characters better, and of course, if you want to use the modern versions, you would have to change some of the assumptions.
Quote from: JeyNyce on March 15, 2010, 09:01:07 PM
wolverine beating lobo??????!!!!!!!!
Dude, you have to give me some of the stuff you're somking, LOL!
Anyway, I though it would end up as a tie. I can't believe this topic has been going on for so long now.
the point is and i still stand by it in the rules of the fight in marvel vs dc. wolverine could have beat lobo
the rules stated that to win you just had to immobile your opponent for 3 seconds, and i do think logan could have outsmarted lobo
in a straight up fist fight, logan gives it good but in the end lobo destroys him
Anyone else besides me read this months "Aquaman & Etrigan vs Cthonian-esque demon" story in "The Brave and the Bold"!
Aquaman rocked.
More material for Benton's collection of "Aquaman-is-underrated-and-I-can-prove-it" stuff!
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a141/BrooklynCrippler/aquaman-meets-cthulhu.jpg)
some where BG just had a heart attack of pure joy
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 23, 2010, 07:09:59 PM
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a141/BrooklynCrippler/aquaman-meets-cthulhu.jpg)
some where BG just had a heart attack of pure joy
I've seen this, and it was good.
NONONONONOOOooooo!
ANYTIME Cthulhu is in the mix it is BAD. VERY VERY BAD!
It's a great idea thought...
Seriously, go get your hands on a copy of "Brave and the Bold" #32.
It has a very real Aquaman VS Cthulu feel.
Quote from: Kenn on March 24, 2010, 04:20:02 AM
Seriously, go get your hands on a copy of "Brave and the Bold" #32.
It has a very real Aquaman VS Cthulu feel.
Yeah, I've read a summary of it, and I'll give it a look next time I go to the comic shop. It looks pretty cool.