Poll
Question:
Should Benton be allowed to release his Mod; DCUG?
Option 1: No, it breaks a rule by having extra content not used in the campaign
votes: 1
Option 2: No, I have another objection to it (please state)
votes: 3
Option 3: Yes, there is no clear rule on Mod content and it breaks no other rule.
votes: 22
Option 4: Yes, other Mods have done this, the precedent is established (see my LSH MOD for one)
votes: 33
Option 5: Add Missions to the Mod which use the extra content and we are good
votes: 7
Option 6: Other: please state.
votes: 3
So, here we are, as a community, deciding our community's rules and practices by a vote (sort of).
Feel free to sound off, debate and discuss.
Try to keep it rational and civil.
I've set it for 30 days. Please try to think and vote and post before then.
You may change your vote if you wish.
This is not necessarily binding to anyone in any way, but I think we need to hear from the community as a whole, and not just us mouthy ones. If we want to be a community, we must be one. Not just those of us (me included) who talk loudest deciding what happens.
OPTION 5:
As to any middle ground, I would propose a solution which may allow the Mod as Benton wants it to appear, and satisfy its critics too;
I propose a new campaign, of several missions of a Crisis in the DCU. The Antimonitor or Darkseid or anyone else gathers all the villains for a final clash with the heroes. the player picks a team from all the heroes, and as his team gets knocked out, replacements are scripted in. The player must either defeat all the villains, or survive a given time (depending on the numbers involved). This way, every mesh/skin/character now considered "extra" is playable and in the Mod.
I'm sure some will already be rolling their eyes and saying "getting around the rules". It's not. It's abiding by the rules you set out. There are no rules about the intent of any given mission within a Mod, nor who writes it, nor how quickly or slowly it is produced or to what end.
I have PM'd this idea to Benton already, but have yet to hear back from him. If he says no, clearly its a non-starter.
I would hope it's a way to satify everyone to some extent, as even those arguing against the Mod have said they would not mind if all the characters appear in missions.
I am prepared to do this myself, or to assist anyone else who may wish to do it better than I would.
I'm all for the mod, I plan to download it (once it's bug free I have hell installing stuff to begin with don't wanna do it 20 times)
Do I think including the entire DC universe went against what people meant when the no torrent rule was made YEP. Did I agree with the no torrent rule? NO
I think it's high time the community made some written down rules. No more gentlemen's agreements.. no trying to remember exactly who agreed to what and what they really meant. Decide what everybody wants for rules and write them down. This being said... honestly there's nothing anybody here can do to enforce a rule.
First. This poll is going to turn into another nuclear testing site.
Second. I honestly feel like mods with 4gb of additional unused content is mass file transferring and if we are going to do that why not just open up the hub again and allow people to set up private torrents?
Third. I don't care either way. This whole subject has destroy this community (content-wise) in my eyes and it is obvious that certain people have no real say, no matter how much content they create or how often they post because this community will use you when they want something and discard you post something they don't like.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 04:23:35 PM
First. This poll is going to turn into another nuclear testing site.
Second. I honestly feel like mods with 4gb of additional unused content is mass file transferring and if we are going to do that why not just open up the hub again and allow people to set up private torrents?
Third. I don't care either way. This whole subject has destroy this community (content-wise) in my eyes and it is obvious that certain people have no real say, no matter how much content they create or how often they post because this community will use you when they want something and discard you post something they don't like.
First, yes, that is one possibility. But here we are.
Second, you should have mentioned your feelings back when I released my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod. We have a precedent, a rule that says this type of Mod is done. Your precious "rule" on Mod content was broken years ago, and you know what? Anarchy did not follow. The sky did not turn red. Some people downloaded the Mods and everything else was fine. As it was with Benton's Mod, till IPS started in.
And the Hub can start up any time at all. It was never banned or shut down by the "community", just the guy who was the owner of the "server".
Third, for someone who doesn't care, you've been remarkably vocal. You have a say in what happens to your own content, that is the whole point of my Mod Permissions thread. And as Vertex says, we need to start writing stuff down, and to work out what we want as a community. You should either start to care, or think about why you keep posting quite so vehemently on a subject you profess to not care about.
Fourth, I note with some interest you neither accept nor dismiss my suggestion of a way to end this by adding extra missions to the Mod. Would it satisfy your personal concerns, or do you feel it to be a way to sneak around the rules, and still counter to the "spirit" of the rules?
Quote from: tommyboy on January 27, 2009, 04:44:58 PM
Second, you should have mentioned your feelings back when I released my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod. We have a precedent, a rule that says this type of Mod is done. Your precious "rule" on Mod content was broken years ago, and you know what? Anarchy did not follow. The sky did not turn red. Some people downloaded the Mods and everything else was fine. As it was with Benton's Mod, till IPS started in.
And the Hub can start up any time at all. It was never banned or shut down by the "community", just the guy who was the owner of the "server".
Tommy, I never mentioned anything about a rule. I said I feel and the mods have said in the past that torrenting is not something the community wants so if we are going to start ignoring mods because we want to save the feelings of one person, why not allow any sort of file transferring option and this would not be an issue.
Quote from: tommyboy on January 27, 2009, 04:44:58 PM
Third, for someone who doesn't care, you've been remarkably vocal. You have a say in what happens to your own content, that is the whole point of my Mod Permissions thread. And as Vertex says, we need to start writing stuff down, and to work out what we want as a community. You should either start to care, or think about why you keep posting quite so vehemently on a subject you profess to not care about.
I'm vocal because I was asked by a friend to make an observation and comment. I did and then people starting attacking me because of my opinion. I'm not going to let noobs and freeloaders rally around and make up the rules for the whole community because they want what they want. That is my major problem with this whole issue. If vetern content creators opinions are disregarded so easily for this community greater good what leverage or say do I honestly have in this community? Why shouldn't I just nuke HF and my yahoo groups? Of course, I'm not going to but the blatant disrespect for content creators' opinions is disgusting.
Quote from: tommyboy on January 27, 2009, 04:44:58 PM
Fourth, I note with some interest you neither accept nor dismiss my suggestion of a way to end this by adding extra missions to the Mod. Would it satisfy your personal concerns, or do you feel it to be a way to sneak around the rules, and still counter to the "spirit" of the rules?
I honestly thought that is what this mod was originally when I gave my permission. So I don't have a problem with that. My problem is with collecting a bunch of content by different people making it the one stop source for said content and ignoring other people's work based on the packager's whim.
Tommy: You forgot to add "Eat Grilled Cheese Sandwich" to the list of possible answers. That'd get my vote.
Honestly, as a "one- time contributor" but mostly just a member nowadays, I am getting sick and tired of all this... all of this. Everyone's right, and everyone's wrong. Rules were broken, but only because rules weren't stated. Guidelines need to be made, but now isn't the best time because someone... ANYONE... mentions the words "Rules" or "Mods," and the boards crack in half. I get it. People are ticked off. End of story.
For crying out loud, there is no reason (NO. REASON.) why this community, a community that I was happy to be a part of, one that was very close- knit and devoted to a seriously- defunct game and all things comic booky, should be on the brink of crumbling after a minor oversight of (unstated) rules. Let it drop.Just let it dorp.
Or don't, and watch our member numbers drop lower than they already are, as we all march valiently towards the end. I just don't care anymore.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 04:58:37 PM
Tommy, I never mentioned anything about a rule. I said I feel and the mods have said in the past that torrenting is not something the community wants so if we are going to start ignoring mods because we want to save the feelings of one person, why not allow any sort of file transferring option and this would not be an issue.
I'm vocal because I was asked by a friend to make an observation and comment. I did and then people starting attacking me because of my opinion. I'm not going to let noobs and freeloaders rally around and make up the rules for the whole community because they want what they want. That is my major problem with this whole issue. If vetern content creators opinions are disregarded so easily for this community greater good what leverage or say do I honestly have in this community? Why shouldn't I just nuke HF and my yahoo groups? Of course, I'm not going to but the blatant disrespect for content creators' opinions is disgusting.
I honestly thought that is what this mod was originally when I gave my permission. So I don't have a problem with that. My problem is with collecting a bunch of content by different people making it the one stop source for said content and ignoring other people's work based on the packager's whim.
My position on distribution is the same as on Mod use or NifSkoping. Creator decides. If you say yes to a torrent, away it goes. If you say no, I trust people to report it if your wishes are breached. I get that to some extent it's a Pandora's Box with an open can of worms inside, so I don't press the issue. We may need a vote on it someday.
I understand and respect loyalty to a friend, if you feel they are unjustly attacked. I have loyalty to my friends too. Of course if my friend goes and starts a pointless fight they will not win and which will hurt a lot of people, personally I hold my friend back, not start swinging at other people, if I can. But if I can't stop my friend, then I guess I would hope I'd do as you have done and back them up. That's honourable.
And I thank you for having the flexibility to consider my "extra missions" solution, and for having no problem as yet with it.
I think maybe you and I are reaching a bit more agreement, and that's good. This started with two people disagreeing, it can start to end if people find stuff to agree on.
Other: The people who run Freedom Reborn should evaluate why they are paying good money to run a set of forums dedicated to a game most of them don't even play anymore when one mod causes a crapload of drama over ownership of content, none of which is the creator's Intellectual Property to begin with. So yeah, this sure would be a lot more peaceful place if Freedom Force was dumped altogether and FR became a dedicated City of Heroes forum. No Freedom Force = No Freedom Force Drama. Problem solved.
Tommy, I never had a problem with the mod per say my problem was with the way the extra content was being distributed. It is no different than the hub or torrents and I don't have a problem with those things but if the mods have said "no" and even banned people for it, why would I allow one person to do it because they put so much work into their mod/ content pak?
Second, the only reason I got pulled into this fight and continue to fight is the name calling. There was a point during this whole thing where I actually tried to have a little fun with the fact that this fight was stupid but once you start attacking people and calling people names because their opinion is different than yours I have a major problem with that.
Do I want to see Bent's mod released, yes, very much so and he knows that but I think either we change the rules to allow it in it's current format or we ask him to release just the mod part of it.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 04:58:37 PM
I'm vocal because I was asked by a friend to make an observation and comment. I did and then people starting attacking me because of my opinion. I'm not going to let noobs and freeloaders rally around and make up the rules for the whole community because they want what they want. That is my major problem with this whole issue. If vetern content creators opinions are disregarded so easily for this community greater good what leverage or say do I honestly have in this community? Why shouldn't I just nuke HF and my yahoo groups? Of course, I'm not going to but the blatant disrespect for content creators' opinions is disgusting.
You're full of it. It's just like TaskmasterX said in another thread: you and your buddy ips are nothing but elitists.
This post of yours is not even the best example of the point I'm trying to make, but I'll quote this one anyway out of convenience. Basically, from what you've said here and in other threads, you are a contributor and, therefore, people should be biased towards your opinions. That's right. When someone disagrees with you, you get all upity and you start spouting that "freeloader" mumbo-jambo.
Have it ever crossed your mind how would it be like a community composed only of content-creators? How many people do you think would be part such community? Very little, I assure you. And, in such a community, what would be the point of releasing your content? Why would you release a skin for a community of people who can make a skin of the same character, only fitting their tastes better? You'd be nothing then.
You people should quit it with the elitism. Everbody respects a content-creator for what he has done. But that does not make him more a member of the community than anybody else.
Anyway, staying on topic, I support Benton's mod and I don't see what's wrong with it. Even :ffvstr: has content that is not used in the campaign. I don't remember seeing Deja Vu, Pinstripe or any dinosaurs in the main campaign.
Just for the fun of it, I've looked for some of the meshes included in the DCUG in some of the mesh lists I know of, and there were many I did not find listed. This mod is also serving the purpose of bringing back some content that, otherwise, could have been lost forever to the regular user.
People will still visit the site to look for Marvel/Image/DBZ/whatever meshes, and if there is a new DC one out there, they might check it out as well. As for the complaint about the skins, brought up by ips in the DCUG thread, I've never heard anything about a mod's purpose being to fuel the ego of Random Skinner #26. I've never made a mod myself, but I believe it's common sense that, when you make a mod, you'll try to make it as good as possible, in both gameplay and aesthetics. If Benton thinks C6 skins are better-looking than the others there are out there, it's nothing but natural that he'd choose to use them. Also, not everbody thinks C6's skins are the best ones. Unless you're talking about players who will make do with whatever you place in their hands, there will always be those who will look for better/alternative. There is possibility that those who will look for better/alternative will not find it, and will just stick with C6's skins, as there are also those who have used a skin by, for example, the_ultimate_evil, and then found out that someone made a better one, in his opinion, and will delete the old skin from his HD and switch it for the new skin. You'll never know which skins from which creators a person is using, so all of the skin whini--... I mean argument, is moot.
I think we need to expand the question here, Tommy. This is about more than BG's mod. As near as I can tell, he's not going to release it again. The pertinent question is, as near as I can tell, what are the limits of modders who use others' content? I'd even venture another: how do we resolve conflicts of this extent in the future?
While I don't produce any artistic content that someone would want to incorporate into a mod, and my opinion as a contributor is therefore moot, I'd like to chime in as a member of the community at the very least. I think the best solution would be for individual artists to decide what can be done with their content. IPS expressed his desire for BG to remove his content from the DCUG, and he did; Vertex argued against it, but wanted the situation to be resolved allowing the mod to survive, presumably with any additions of his still included. While I understand artists' concerns over the principle of the thing, it would serve the community best if each creator decided it on their own, and other artists respected their wishes.
In the future, should an event of this magnitude rear its ugly head again, I think the best option would be a conference of the Administrators and Moderators to decide the solution. The reason this needed a resolution was not because of the issue itself, but because of the harm the drama caused us. Words were said, tempers flared, and most importantly, it spilled out of the relevant thread and poisoned other interactions. The damage done to this community was massive and depressing. In the future, that kind of damage needs to prevented, and compromising to resolve the issue quickly, quietly and definitively is, I believe, more important than either side getting their way. However, as I said, my bias is in protecting the community as a whole, not towards the rights of creators, modders or players, and as such may be irrelevant, although I feel it is not.
I killed this response because Grem asked.
Both of you, please, take this to PM if you wish to continue arguing. This thread should be about resolving this issue, not stirring up more trouble.
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 06:41:27 PM
Both of you, please, take this to PM if you wish to continue arguing. This thread should be about resolving this issue, not stirring up more trouble.
Don't worry, I'm done.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 06:42:05 PM
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 06:41:27 PM
Both of you, please, take this to PM if you wish to continue arguing. This thread should be about resolving this issue, not stirring up more trouble.
Don't worry, I'm done.
Thank you. Now, to the details.
QuoteDo I want to see Bent's mod released, yes, very much so and he knows that but I think either we change the rules to allow it in it's current format or we ask him to release just the mod part of it.
Well, the problem with that is the mod is primarily supposed to be those characters and such. If anything, in BG's vision the missions were the "extras." While I'd like to see that option, it isn't what he wants to release. So, how should the rule be changed, specifically? Should we allow torrents if creators agree to their material being used?
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 06:39:04 PM
Exactly who am I saying I am more elite than? All I've ever said was as an active community member who has published countless work, I think content distribution should be discussed with those who distribute it.
That's no what you have been doing. I agree that a content-creator has the rights over what he has created; however, you went far beyond that. If you had a problem with your content being part of the DCUG mod, you could have just asked for it to be removed, and it would have been, just like ips's content was when the latter asked Benton to. You'd be exercising your right then. But instead of that, you and ips began this whole argument because you and him took it upon yourselves to speak in the name of the community, and began spouting non-archived rules about a limit to content released in a mod. So, in that case, you were not exercising your rights over YOUR content; you were trying to control how the content of other creators, who had nothing against Benton's project, is used.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 06:39:04 PM
At one point most of the active people who made the decisions around these parts were content creators and community mods, but again maybe you are too much a noob to know about that.
You didn't even get what I was trying to say.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 06:39:04 PM
Actually I don't agree with that and it's my opinion (and let me stress how it is just an opinion and people should stop crucifying me for it) that if you lurk, freeload, or you are an active requester, you shouldn't decide what direction the content community moves towards. You movements are based purely on you receiving more free stuff. You aren't looking after content creators interests just your own "give-mes" and "I needs".
You don't have any more rights because what you have done, you've done out of your own volition. I might be wrong, but back when you were a noob, I don't think somebody came over to you and said: "Hey! Why don't you start making skins a meshes for the community?" You simply decided that you wanted to contribute, and began to. You were not forced into doing anything; nobody asked you to do anything, and you do not have any responsibilities towards doing or not doing something for the community.
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 06:46:24 PM
Well, the problem with that is the mod is primarily supposed to be those characters and such. If anything, in BG's vision the missions were the "extras." While I'd like to see that option, it isn't what he wants to release. So, how should the rule be changed, specifically? Should we allow torrents if creators agree to their material being used?
Well not just torrents per say, but we should allow mass file transfer if Bent wants his mod to see the light of day. Honestly I wish we could organize something like FFCenter of the days of past where everyone stuff is there for the picking and choosing.
The whole concerned over people's work not being seen or used because of how the mod could effect the community is really lesser of my concerns. That is how things essentially work around here. Honestly while I don't like it, I'm not a preference nazi. If you like certain things, just use them if not people could always replace them in the character folder.
Breathe. We're all cool here.
Quote from: Blitzgott on January 27, 2009, 06:59:45 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 06:39:04 PM
Exactly who am I saying I am more elite than? All I've ever said was as an active community member who has published countless work, I think content distribution should be discussed with those who distribute it.
That's no what you have been doing. I agree that a content-creator has the rights over what he has created; however, you went far beyond that. If you had a problem with your content being part of the DCUG mod, you could have just asked for it to be removed, and it would have been, just like ips's content was when the latter asked Benton to. You'd be exercising your right then. But instead of that, you and ips began this whole argument because you and him took it upon yourselves to speak in the name of the community, and began spouting non-archived rules about a limit to content released in a mod. So, in that case, you were not exercising your rights over YOUR content; you were trying to control how the content of other creators, who had nothing against Benton's project, is used.
Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:01:31 PM
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 06:46:24 PM
Well, the problem with that is the mod is primarily supposed to be those characters and such. If anything, in BG's vision the missions were the "extras." While I'd like to see that option, it isn't what he wants to release. So, how should the rule be changed, specifically? Should we allow torrents if creators agree to their material being used?
Well not just torrents per say, but we should allow mass file transfer if Bent wants his mod to see the light of day. Honestly I wish we could organize something like FFCenter of the days of past where everyone stuff is there for the picking and choosing.
The whole concerned over people's work not being seen or used because of how the mod could effect the community is really lesser of my concerns. That is how things essentially work around here. Honestly while I don't like it, I'm not a preference nazi. If you like certain things, just use them if not people could always replace them in the character folder.
The biggest problem I can see with mass file transfer is a lack of permission, which is why I think people need to get the okay from the artists whose content they use. And what's to stop someone from uploading their custom_characters folder? Perhaps we should include the caveat that a mass file needs a) permission from all involved, and b) some kind of context, such as a mod. Perhaps there are other criteria that we can establish to deliniate between acceptable and unacceptable mass file transfers.
One thing that I'm looking at for precedent is the EZFX and VPMAX packs. How were those organized and okayed by the community? I think they're a good starting point for deciding what to do here.
Agreed, and since it's not something that holds immediate relevance (although I may be wrong), since it cannot be regulated, I would say that further discussion on people being inadvertently excluded is not terribly salient to our current discussion.
Personally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it. The community itself shouldn't be deciding what or how a content creators' stuff is used or distributed. It should be up to the content creator and only that content creator. No one else needs to chime in on behalf of that content creator. They have a mouth, let them use it. Ecspecially if you want to keep stating that it doesn't matter to you.
Those that don't have an issue should keep there mouths shut. There's no need to add arguments on anothers behalf. If there has been a precedent, then why is it even an issue? I voted for the precedent.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:01:31 PM
Well not just torrents per say, but we should allow mass file transfer if Bent wants his mod to see the light of day. Honestly I wish we could organize something like FFCenter of the days of past where everyone stuff is there for the picking and choosing.
YAY now let's get a FR wiki codex created like I'm pushing for (shameless plug)
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 07:06:26 PM
Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?
Exactamundo.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 27, 2009, 07:14:27 PM
Personally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it.
Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.
Quote from: Vertex on January 27, 2009, 07:15:12 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:01:31 PMWell not just torrents per say, but we should allow mass file transfer if Bent wants his mod to see the light of day. Honestly I wish we could organize something like FFCenter of the days of past where everyone stuff is there for the picking and choosing.
YAY now let's get a FR wiki codex created like I'm pushing for (shameless plug)
I don't know if that's the same thing. Having links to where the creator hosts their files is entirely different from having all the files gathered in one place for convenience.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 07:06:26 PM
Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?
Exactamundo.
AWESOME. So, just so we're explicitly clear, it is entirely possible for a consensus to be reached here. Now we need to figure out what, exactly, that consensus is.
Quote from: Blitzgott on January 27, 2009, 06:59:45 PM
You don't have any more rights because what you have done, you've done out of your own volition. I might be wrong, but back when you were a noob, I don't think somebody came over to you and said: "Hey! Why don't you start making skins a meshes for the community?" You simply decided that you wanted to contribute, and began to. You were not forced into doing anything; nobody asked you to do anything, and you do not have any responsibilities towards doing or not doing something for the community.
Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.
Voicing my opinion about Benton Grey's Mod:
I voted for yes with precedents.
I was quite happy that the mod was to include hero files for all characters being built-in.
I though that this would be great for EZScript stories as not just Benton, but ANYBODY could write EZ script stories that could be plugged into the mod.
I thought this would be an innovative way to keep all of the custom content fresh.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:38:35 PM
Quote from: Blitzgott on January 27, 2009, 06:59:45 PM
You don't have any more rights because what you have done, you've done out of your own volition. I might be wrong, but back when you were a noob, I don't think somebody came over to you and said: "Hey! Why don't you start making skins a meshes for the community?" You simply decided that you wanted to contribute, and began to. You were not forced into doing anything; nobody asked you to do anything, and you do not have any responsibilities towards doing or not doing something for the community.
Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.
I don't think this discussion is necessarily relevant to the issue at hand.
Now, I'm a little confused here. I'm seeing two conflicting precedents.
"Wrong," resulting in banning in the past
-Electro's fx pack
-
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:21:44 PMQuote from: TaskMasterX on January 27, 2009, 07:14:27 PMPersonally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it.
Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.
"Okay," resulting in no conflict.
-EZFX
-VPMAX
-
Quote from: tommyboy...my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod.
How do we define the difference? DOes anyone have more information on who has been banned in the past for stuff like this?
Okay I was asked to post this for Benton because he felt compelled to say something.
" I have been informed that this discussion is still going on, and what's more, still going on in the kind of destructive fashion that I took my mod down to counteract. I feel compelled to take some measure, be it ever so indirect, to try and restore an element of peace to the community. I am not willing to get engaged in this conversation while it is still taking this kind of form, but I will offer this statement in the hopes that the situation will be improved and the community spared more damage.
First, let me ask all of you, on both sides of this debate, to stop personal attacks. This is the kind of thing that makes people drop out of the community, and any loss diminishes us more than we can afford. It does not matter who has done what, nor who has said what, we need each other, both creators and players. Thank you all for caring so much about my work that you feel the need to keep the battle going, but it is not worth the health of the community to pursue it in this way. I meant every word I typed in my thread, and I am and will be open to an arbitrated discussion. However, I will not be releasing a mod to a divided community. I have poured my heart and soul into this project to help the community, and not to hurt it. I have every hope that this community can solve these problems, and I believe that we must if we are to survive AS a community. That does not necessarily mean that I have every confidence that things will go 'my way.' This should not be about me, nor my work, at least not entirely.
If you wish to use my mod as a yardstick, to give you concretes to talk about, very well, but if we approach the questions at hand as merely an attempt to get my little project released, we are missing much larger issues. These issues need to be addressed, and need to be addressed sooner rather than later, apparently, as the continuing uncertainty is, by all accounts I am hearing, producing even more strife. While our entire community has a stake in this, I am afraid that the final decision cannot be made merely by a majority vote of said community. In the end, the question of torrents, the definition thereof, and the rules concerning them need to be codified, and this needs to be done by the content creators. I know this may seem like a strange thing for me to say, but in the end the question is 'how shall we treat THEIR work,' and only they have the right to decide that.
I feel that I, myself, am not much of a creator, but to my everlasting pride, I am regarded as such. Still, I feel like I am walking a line somewhere between the two, and therefore sympathetic to the concerns of both. This does not mean that the rest of us have no right to speak on the matter, however, this decision is theirs and theirs alone. Inversely, it cannot be made by one or two of the content creators, but must be discussed and decided upon by the content community as a whole. Just as I have no right to tell a skinner how their work should be treated, they have no right to dictate to another artists how their respective work should be used. I suggest that, for the good of the community, the skinners, meshers, FXers, and modders, the content creators that form our foundation, be invited to discuss the matter, but under the arbitration of some authority, be it elected or an admin or Titan, to make certain that things stay rational and unemotional. This should be done in private, out of the eyes of the public, so that artists are not attacked for a view that they may or may not hold, and to avoid more strife while the issues are resolved. I will not organzie this, as I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not trying to manipulate things in my interest, but I do want what is best for the community. This is a suggestion on a way to resolve the matter, and for the good of us all, I hope that someone steps up to bring order here. Now, I will continue my vacation from the boards, and I hope that in my absence, matters will improve."
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 07:06:26 PM
Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?
I think it's both sad and amazing that a "long-standing" rule of such (apparent) relevance was not recorded anywhere for the purpose of reminding the community of its existence.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:38:35 PM
Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.
Except you're not in a torrent website. Here, for all I know, all you're gonna get is respect and appreciation. Your "privileges" are having people treat you a little nicer than the next guy and/or listen to your opinions more attentively. Please enlighten me of any other privileges you might have, if any.
Quote from: Blitzgott on January 27, 2009, 08:03:40 PM
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 07:06:26 PM
Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?
I think it's both sad and amazing that a "long-standing" rule of such (apparent) relevance was not recorded anywhere for the purpose of reminding the community of its existence.
Actually, I'm curious about this too, and am researching it now to see if there is precedent for such thing. A shame we don't have access to the oldest parts of the boards, but even if we don't, there should still be information concerning who is banned. It may even be that the consensus to avoid torrents was never really written in stone, just suggested when the community was young. Hopefully we'll soon see.
Quote from: Blitzgott
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:38:35 PM
Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.
Except you're not in a torrent website. Here, for all I know, all you're gonna get is respect and appreciation. Your "privileges" are having people treat you a little nicer than the next guy and/or listen to your opinions more attentively. Please enlighten me of any other privileges you might have, if any.
As near as I can tell this discussion is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 27, 2009, 07:14:27 PM
Personally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it.
Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.
So, wait a second. You mean to tell me the FR community made a rule that forced content creators to not allow their content in a torrent or be banned? You can't, as a content creator, decide how your own work is distributed?
EDIT:
After re-reading this, I think I see where the misunderstanding is. What I meant was
Content Creators that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones that should be binded by it. If a content creator states that their content is free to be used in any way as long as credit is given, then the content should be allowed in a torrent that includes credits, no? And no one else, no matter what their position is on the "torrent rule", other than the content creator can come along and voice his/her issue with a modder for how their own content was used.
EDIT again: Actually after reading my first post, it's quite clear what I meant. AA either didn't read my whole post or took my sentence out of context.
Quote from: Gremlin on January 27, 2009, 07:51:02 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:38:35 PM
Quote from: Blitzgott on January 27, 2009, 06:59:45 PM
You don't have any more rights because what you have done, you've done out of your own volition. I might be wrong, but back when you were a noob, I don't think somebody came over to you and said: "Hey! Why don't you start making skins a meshes for the community?" You simply decided that you wanted to contribute, and began to. You were not forced into doing anything; nobody asked you to do anything, and you do not have any responsibilities towards doing or not doing something for the community.
Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.
I don't think this discussion is necessarily relevant to the issue at hand.
Now, I'm a little confused here. I'm seeing two conflicting precedents.
"Wrong," resulting in banning in the past
-Electro's fx pack
-Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:21:44 PMQuote from: TaskMasterX on January 27, 2009, 07:14:27 PMPersonally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it.
Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.
"Okay," resulting in no conflict.
-EZFX
-VPMAX
-Quote from: tommyboy...my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod.
How do we define the difference? DOes anyone have more information on who has been banned in the past for stuff like this?
Honestly I'm not sure why there were distinctions but they were made. To be fair, the first EZFX was around before the rule and it created by all the people who were involved with it.
I still haven't installed VPMAX and I assumed it was all of Crim's work.
Unfortunately I never dled AvengersSpecial.
Edit: Electro did more than a FX pak. He gathered content together and hosted it on yahoo groups, and while I never personally had a problem (I remember asking him to just link to the other yahoo groups or websites) but the whole decided him put everybody's work together in one area for easy dl was frowned on.
Regardless, this topic is stupid and if the majority of the people want to be able to gather content together and redistribute it, I say why not pitch in and create a new search based resource. It would solve a lot of these problems.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 27, 2009, 08:24:07 PM
EDIT again: Actually after reading my first post, it's quite clear what I meant. AA either didn't read my whole post or took my sentence out of context.
There have been threats of banning by mods regarding the use or posting of torrents. That is what I was referring too. As for the rest of your post tl;dr.
Partly in response to Benton's message above (for which, thank you, Vertex);
Yes, there have been some bad feelings, and some name calling. But I think it fair to say that both those things are the minority of posters and posts. A lot of other people are willing to rationally and reasonably discuss matters, and even those who have flared up a bit are generally managing to hold their tempers, as long as respect is shown.
To what extent the community is being destroyed by this, I couldn't say. I've seen some post that this arguing is putting them off the site, and off the community, so I suppose the effect must be a negative one. But I'd wager a lot of others simply dont mind or care if some of us argue sometimes, as that is what tends to happen on forums.
How do we go about outlining what rules we want? We try to establish a public consensus, then iron out details with creators individual consents.
I'll use NifSkope as an example. It came along relatively late in the FF timeline, and there were no existing rules which covered what it did. So we established the basic principle that it was to be allowed (by common consent from public discussion), then Podmark created the Permission thread so that individual meshers could state their specific preferences as to how their work was to be used, or not used, by 'skopers. So first we agreed publicly on general principles, and then individual creators could sign into or out of the deal. Result? that any skoper can know whose meshes are available for use, and that skoping in general is OK with the community, provided that permission has been given. Everyone gets a say about the basic principle but the rights of the individual creators are protected by the opt-out option. We know that model works.
There is no reason why we cannot publicly codify a rational principle about Modding and "extra content" Modding, and have a permissions thread for usage of individual creators work. It may be that 90% of non-creators will vote for "everything to be available, all the time, in every way", but the creators are protected by the right to opt out, as well as by the general goodwill of the community. The fact is, that we do look out for each other here. Even this mess was caused by someone concerned that a rule had been broken.
We blow whistles when we see "wrongdoing".
Likewise, there can be an accord as to the general principle of whether content torrents are allowed or not, along with the right of any given creator to opt out or into them. Those worried about floodgates opening, don't. People have been privately sending each other CDs, or using the Hub or other file sharing for years, and the community survived. And that was when the game was current, and relatively popular.
In the case of Benton's Mod, if there is public feeling that it should be released and Benton decides to, any creators unhappy with that can opt out of the Mod. And those in the Mod should explicitly state that they know the "type" of Mod it is, and that they are OK with that. If the vote goes the other way on it, or Benton declines to release it, we will still have a Permission/Forbidden list if a similar Mod emerges in future.
I'm not 100% sure, but I have an impression that any torrent bannings were perhaps to do with a lack of permission, or credits or both. If both proper permission and credits are present, I don't think personally that torrents are intrinsically evil, any more than Mods or Websites or emails or any other way we distribute content. That may be a community consensus, or the reverse may be true. But without discussions we cannot know either way.
It's been a long time since my last post here. I want to tell you a little tale about mods, games and creators, it's a real story:
There's a racing game called rFactor with a huge community that produces great mods. One of the groups of the community made a F1 mod, named FSOne. One day, another group released another F1 mod (f1rt08). This mod has lots of stolen models, kitbashed skins, etc, etc... lots and lots of them from the FSOne mod. All the forums in the community have banned the 'illegal' f1rt mod but... it is widely massively played on the internet. No matter how the FSone creators (spanish by the way) protested, no matter the 'official' ban of the mod... players around the world decided to play the illegal mod.
Benton didn't break any rule. He got all the permissions. He did everything 'by the book'. So please, put the ego aside and feel part of the mod because that's exactly what you are. Benton in particular and this community in general is very well mannered and here will never be anything like the 'illegal' F1 mod thing. However, creators must remember that even though they may have worked a lot and they can decide about their work, once it's released they can't do anything to stop people/users/others to use it as they want to. 'OMG, what's he saying?' you're thinking. I'm sorry but it's true, any of your great and talented work could be kitbashed or missused in any way that you can't control or it even could be modificated and they could say it's their own work, not yours. These things happen everyday: X-Wing Alliance, Bridge Commander, Starfleet Command, GTA saga, rFactor, ... Lots and lots of games with lots and lots of modders that steal something from others creators of other games and the claim that work as theirs. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. BENTON FOLLOWED ALL THE WRITTEN/UNWRITTEN COMMUNITY RULES So creators, please have in mind all the respect and care that everybody has always had here with you. This mod should be released because: i) it broke no rules, ii) there are no rules (for the final player, I don't mean for the community)
Freedom Reborn has principles as a community. This community always understood the importance of the creators: modders, programmers, skinners, meshers,... All of them. However, it is a pity that the same ego that fosters one to skin, mesh or whatever and gives us the chance to enjoy these work will also destroy the community.
It's a pity to see how a thing like this could finally kill the community.
I believe TaskMasterX has summarized it all.
Basically, there is no precedence to the "torrent rule" that has been brought up by the instigators as the main focus of this discussion, as it is not written down anywhere. I don't see how can you enforce a rule that only you and a small circle of people know of and/or care about.
And, regardless of such rule have ever been documented in the past, it contradicts the instigators own belief that a content-creator should have the final word on how their content should and/or should not be used.
There was never any precedence to the beginning of this discussion. The instigators themselves believe that content-creators should have full control over their content, while at the same time they are trying to bind them to rules that restrict how these same creators distribute or allow the distribution/use of said content.
In a nutshell, this discussion does not make any sense.
Quote from: detourne_me on January 27, 2009, 07:43:39 PM
Voicing my opinion about Benton Grey's Mod:
I voted for yes with precedents.
I was quite happy that the mod was to include hero files for all characters being built-in.
I though that this would be great for EZScript stories as not just Benton, but ANYBODY could write EZ script stories that could be plugged into the mod.
I thought this would be an innovative way to keep all of the custom content fresh.
Very much agreed. I don't see how packaging everyone's work with proper credit is a bad thing, this should have been done a long time ago with constant updates if anything! I can't ell you how much time I had spent downloading and installing individual content into one mass folder for the game, only to eventually lose it and have to start all over again. And by lose it I mean due to the eventual Viruses or computer upgrading, where even though I may have backed up the content long ago, a few different times, some how some way over the years it gets lost. Obviously this is not a game where it is the only thing I'm playing over and over again, there are plenty of other fun distractions on the computer to take away from it, BUT, this game is one of the few that can be revisited over and over again because the great work put in by the modding community. But if I'm forced to start from scratch all over again it takes away from the experience, believe me. So if BG's mod broke a rule that's unfortunate, but it's even more unfortunate that the rule exists.
Sorry if I'm butting in and my opinion doesn't count, if it does then great! :)
OT.
Quote from: Blitzgott on January 27, 2009, 09:21:31 PM
I believe TaskMasterX has summarized it all.
Basically, there is no precedence to the "torrent rule" that has been brought up by the instigators as the main focus of this discussion, as it is not written down anywhere. I don't see how can you enforce a rule that only you and a small circle of people know of and/or care about.
And, regardless of such rule have ever been documented in the past, it contradicts the instigators own belief that a content-creator should have the final word on how their content should and/or should not be used.
There was never any precedence to the beginning of this discussion. The instigators themselves believe that content-creators should have full control over their content, while at the same time they are trying to bind them to rules that restrict how these same creators distribute or allow the distribution/use of said content.
I hope youre referring to everyone besides me because there is a precedence that was set obviously before you were a member. While there are no written rules, there are a lot of unwritten ones. Such as don't kitbash, don't take mod code and make a few changes and call it your own, and what was most important a few years ago, don't take a bunch of content and shuffle it to the masses.
I'd like to point out a few things I've actually been saying throughout this whole thing:
1) I want Benton to release his mod
2) I don't care if it came with all the content out there allowed if everyone reached agreement that we can all do this in the future
3) I am all for a resource that has everyone's work so this argument could go DIAF
Quote from: Blitzgott on January 27, 2009, 09:21:31 PM
I believe TaskMasterX has summarized it all.
Basically, there is no precedence to the "torrent rule" that has been brought up by the instigators as the main focus of this discussion, as it is not written down anywhere. I don't see how can you enforce a rule that only you and a small circle of people know of and/or care about.
And, regardless of such rule have ever been documented in the past, it contradicts the instigators own belief that a content-creator should have the final word on how their content should and/or should not be used.
There was never any precedence to the beginning of this discussion. The instigators themselves believe that content-creators should have full control over their content, while at the same time they are trying to bind them to rules that restrict how these same creators distribute or allow the distribution/use of said content.
In a nutshell, this discussion does not make any sense.
Bingo. You actually summarized it better than I did.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 09:07:52 PM
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 27, 2009, 08:24:07 PM
EDIT again: Actually after reading my first post, it's quite clear what I meant. AA either didn't read my whole post or took my sentence out of context.
There have been threats of banning by mods regarding the use or posting of torrents. That is what I was referring too. As for the rest of your post tl;dr.
But yet with Bliztgott's post, which is longer then mine, you did take time to read and quote the whole thing. If you can't take the time to read the whole post then don't quote part of it and take it out of context. Actually, don't even reply to my post if you can't read all of it. :doh:
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 27, 2009, 10:03:32 PM
But yet with Bliztgott's post, which is longer then mine, you did take time to read and quote the whole thing. If you can't take the time to read the whole post then don't quote part of it and take it out of context. Actually, don't even reply to my post if you can't read all of it. :doh:
I read his post because he personally attacked me which has happened a lot in the last two days because I voiced my opinion which, as I've been told, has no impact on this community. So I'm not going to even bother anymore.
And obviously you didn't read my pm which I thought would put an end to this bickering but I guess not and I don't know why I would have thought trying to be the bigger man would work in this place anyway.
The other side of the argument keeps stating that torrent-type Mods are anti-competitive, when this argument really should only hold any weight if this was a booming Community for a popular game. Most of us here already know about other skinners, meshers, FXers etc. As a matter of fact, me and I'm sure there are many others that probably already have the meshes, skins, etc. that are included in the DCUG, already downloaded from their original sites and installed in the game. All of us veteran FR members, which last time I looked, make a majority of this community, already know of alternate sources for these characters, and also know that the creators of the content have other work that can be downloaded from their sites on the net.
So, I guess that leaves the noobs who happen to purchase this game on eBay or at an Electronic's Store in the Used Section. How are they going to find other people's meshes, skins, etc. that aren't included in the DCUG? You mean to tell me the noob will find Bent's DCUG first, and through his searches that led him/her to the download page of the DCUG, they never would have encountered other FF-related pages with other content from other creators? It seems to be a pretty weak argument, IMO.
i've lost it with whole thing, i've spoken to BG and he knows where i stand on the mod, and i made my feeling clear in the last thread
but i will say this the few that are for a lack of a better term opposed to aspects of the mod are basically being vilified by what could be described as mob mentality. i have spoke to many people on the new gimme gimme gimme attitude this board has developed over the past year and it is simply pathetic.
honestly the main reason i stay on FR is simply a small group of mates and the fact there is no where else to go for the game
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 10:35:12 PM
-Quote from: tommyboy...my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod.
tommyboy's mods are also NOT precedent setting in any way since they are all HIS own work and do not cover something as large in skope as the entire DC universe. and his work won't result in people not having to look for alternatives because it's simply not that good. his work won't result in lower demand for other meshers' work. c6's work is considered the best in the community by the majority and a pack like this means less people requesting dc characters since they'll already have them all by the best there is (in their minds). the problem with torrents has never been permissions it's been it's agreed impact on the community and the other creators. i don't have an opinion on torrents in general but in this case it amounts to an anti-competitive practice that will suffocate any remaining creators over time. admit it or not. that's how it's gone down so far and it will repeat itself again.
i was the one that originally asked for benton to release his mod. i wanted it. but not with the extra content if it is unused. if he created missions which made use of all the characters and the story included the entire dc universe then i would have had no problem. and i said that initially after which you all vilified me. considering my recent interest in dc characters i wanted this mod out more than anyone here probably but after looking at what it really was i became really concerned with the implications it would have for the community.
c6 himself suggested he didn't know the real nature of the mod, none of us did. and he also suggested as an alternative to my suggestions for getting it released, replacing the content with a variety of other people's content so as to avoid my concerns also.
Umm...no, sorry, wrong again.
Please don't post about my Mods because you clearly know nothing of them.
The AvengersSpecial Mod contained meshes and skins from a vast variety of people. Each character had multiple skins, set to randomly appear.
From the "credits.txt" file:
Spoiler
MESHES:
Irrational
Beyonder -human torch, male basic wings(,hawkman), Hawkeye, Thor, firestorm, Darkseid, Green Arrow, Hawkgirl, Scorpion, Rhino, Male_basic_gloves_boots(iceman,cyclops), Azrael_Helm(melter,annihilus),Diablo,Steel,wolf
Male_alpha_collar(booster gold),blob!!,
Jude Martin - Thing
Mienk - female cape
ComicBookFan - Beast
X-Dud - Sentinel
Abdul Brown - Juggernaut
JiK - Hero_with_shield(Cap. America, Usagent),Spiderman
Keyframe swap thanks to KennX - Male_hulking_lean
Halfscan - Female_Tiny_Alpha(wasp), Female_Insect_Alpha(mantis
)
3dMaster - Beast, Iron_Man_Final, Iron_Man
Mike D. Swain
Sean Latham
Bobby69 - Dr.Fate,Magneto,Unicorn,Flash69,Captain Marvel69,Scarlet Witch69,Quicksilver69,Ray69,Colossus69,Warbird69,Whirlwind69,Yellowjacket69,Wolverine69,Tigershark69,Ironman_v69,Antman69,CyclopsBC69,Hellcat69, Iceman_crystal69, Iron_Fist69,swordsman69
Vertex - VxJocasta,VxLivingLaser,VxWizard-Marvel,
Valandar - Thanos, Microwave_Armour_Faceplate, Iron_Man_Classic,Dormammu,Galactus
interceptor - Female_bald_cape,Valkyrie
Beardedinlair - Classic_batgirl(scarlet witch),Superman,AwBatman,Wonder Woman,Medusa,Vixen,Electro,
AntmanNext - Quicksilver*, Yellowjacket, Cyclops,
Renegade - Male_Titan(atlas),Male Muscle Tall collection(Captain(Shazam)Marvel),Dr.Spectrum,GL_johnstewart,Guy_Gardner,Hal_gl,Kyle_Rayner,wrecker
Grenadier - almost too many to count, and almost all the Max files from which my own (inferior)meshes derive;
absorbing_man,Annihilus,Batroc_Gren,bishop,Black_Panther_Gren,firelord,FVE_Sersi_Gren,FVE_Thena_Gren,Galactus's Punisher_Gren,hyperion,Ikaris_Gren,joh,Makarri_Gren,Male_Hulking_Brute,Nighthawk_Gren,Sasquatch_nohair,Sentinel_Blue,Sentinel_Classic,Sub-Mariner,taskmaster,terrax,vision1,Whizzer_SSinister,wrecker,AND the Max files from which most of my "own" meshes derive.
Ink - Moondragon,Storm,Shadowcat,Madrox,Psylocke,Banshee_green,Bishop,Blackcanary,Magneto,nightwing,Photon,Sentinel_Blue,Sentinel_Classic,sunfire,zantana
TexasJack - AtomTJ,Plastic_man
Felideo - CapitainMarvel-DC
Gni - Gambit,Red skull(hex by tb from the_mask)
----------------------------
MESHES and SKINS:
----------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
Absorbing_man
by Grenadier
skin by Gummo
------------------------------
Airwalker
by Grenadier(?)
skin by?
------------------------------
Angel
by tommyboy
angel by ink4884@aol.com (ink)
Angel Classic Created by Styles email address: stylesstan@aol.com
angel_blue by ink4884@aol.com (ink)
angel_classic_csn by DarkJared(?)
angel3_csn by DarkJared
angelC6 by C6
archC6 by C6
archC62 by C6
archC63 by C6
C63 by C6
-----------------------------------
Annihilus
skin: annihilus
skinmesh: male basic draconus notail
Mesh: Grenadier
----------------------------
mesh: antman tiny
author: kraven
note: this a mesh modification of antmans antman mesh, using the hex editor. the mesh fits the scott lang version of antm
Antman
Skin by: Friction
listenbub@aol.com
MARVEL
Base skin by: Strangefate@ www.Strangefate.com
Mesh: Antman
www.meshforce.com
FTP: http://68.68.170.136:8080
~(ANT MAN)~mesh:the_Ant
Skin created by "INK"
skin: antman
mesh: antman
author: kraven
note: the scott lang version
----------------------------
Animal_man by tommyboy
skin by tommyboy(from Juancho's Mimic_classic skin)
-----------------------------
Atom_tj
by TexasJack
skin by Courtnall6
----------------------------
Attuma
by tommyboy
skin by tommyboy
----------------------------
Aquaman
by BeardedInLair
Skins For Freedom Force
by DarkJared
The skindex - Comic Skin Network
http://www.skindex.net/ff/ffmain.htm
skindex@shaw.ca
----------------------------
AWBatman
this batman made in honor of adam west. skin by trainwreck.
altered from male cape by irrational for freedom force.
by beardedinlair (knyghtwill@aol.com) i welcome email.
batman with robin coming soon!
----------------------------
Azrael_Helm Mesh created by The Beyonder 5-18-02
jpj802@hotmail.com
Gryphon male_belt base skin used to help create the Azrael Skin.
Melter skin by tommboy adapted from Azrael skin by Beyonder(?)
----------------------------
Aztek
by tommyboy
skins, by tommyboy,AfghanAnt
-----------------------------
Banshee_Green
by Ink
Skin by AfghanAnt
------------------------------
BeastAlpha2
by tommyboy
-----------------------------
Beast_Classic(classic_beast)
Male_heavy by Irrational Hexxed by tommyboy,keyframes by tommyboy
Skins by C6,Styles,
----------------------------
Beetle
by tommyboy
skin by tommyboy
----------------------------
Bishop
Mesh By Grenadier and Ink
Basic shape was orignally a Male heavy. Modified the height and shape slighty.
Male heavy = 1.09m Bishop = 1 m and hands made more proportinate.
Animation - Base Set by Dimmoro from Female_two_guns_jacket
Modified and Tweaked by Grenadier
Skin - by Ink
-----------------------------
Big Barda
(formerly Mesh Female_Versatile_more_goodies,by Captain (or Commander)Carrot,hex edited by tommyboy)
Now by tommyboy
Skin by tommyboy,based on the Jack of hearts skin by ? , and the FVMG2 standard.
----------------------------
Black Canary
Mesh Model: Black Canary
Mesh: Ink (storm)
Animations: female_basic
skinner: Courtnall6
E-mail:ink4884@aol.com
Email: Courtnall6@hotmail.com
Base skin: Court6's base skin
---------------------------------------------
Black Knight(bk)
by Grenadier
Skin by DarkJared
The Skindex - Comic Skin Network
http://www.skindex.net/ff/ffmain.htm
skindex@home.com
BK3 by Courtnall6
bkcsn by Darkjared(?)
----------------------------
Black_panther
black_panther by tommyboy
Standard by Courtnall6
Panther2 by Thunder
Black_pantherNL by NextLegend
C6new by C6
----------------------------
Black_lightning
black_lightning by tommyboy
Standard by tommyboy
---------------------------
Black_widow
by tommyboy
Standard by ?
1 by DarkJared(?)
2 by Courtnall6
Black widow by Interceptor
Gryphon by The Gryphon
-----------------------------
Blob
mesh created by The Beyonder 09-01-02
jpj802@hotmail.com
I am making most of the new generic meshes where you don't have to rename
the .tga files.
Standard skin by Ink
----------------------------
Blue_Eagle
Male_basic_wings by Beyonder
blueeagle by MijMan
------------------------------
Booster Gold
(formerly Male_alpha_collar)
by tommyboy
Skin name: Booster Gold
Created by Styles
email address: donaldgoines@netzero.net
mesh: male_basic_effects
Comic Universe: DC Comics
BGC6 by C6
BgC6new by C6
----------------------------
Cable by Grenadier
Skin by Ink
----------------------------
Etc etc etc
And I had to truncate that to fit under the 2000 character limit here.
Similarly, the LSH MOD was mostly my work for meshes, but as the credits reveal, plenty of skins by other people are included:
Spoiler
Other meshes:
Composite_Superman_REN_FFvT3R by Renegade
dragon by Jik
Eagle by Bamphalas (bamphalas@cfl.rr.com) w/ animations by Aphex
Kryptonite by Renegade
Medusa by Bearded in Lair
Professor X by Ink
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SKINS:
Skins by tommyboy:
Many of the "standard" skins for any "tv" or "thv" mesh, exceptions should have a "readme.txt" in the "standard" folder
Since all the _tv or _thv meshes are new and unreleased, most of the extra maps in them are by me, even when the main skin is by someone else.
All Skysphere skins by tommyboy.
All Other skins by:
GREYCOUNT:
Blok,
Bouncing Boy,
Calorie Queen,
Chameleon Boy,
Colossal boy,
Cosmic Boy,
Cosmic King,
Dawnstar,
Dr. Regulus,
Dream Girl,
Dev Em,
Element Lad,
Emerald Empress,
Ferro Lad,
Fire Lad,
Flare
Invisible Kid2,
Infinite Man,
Karate Kid,
Kent Shakespear,
Kid Quantum2,
Jo Nah,
Laurel Gand,
Lightning Lad,
Lightning Lass,
Lightning Lord,
Magno Lad,
Mano,
Mist Master,
Mon El,
Nemesis Kid,
Neutrax,
Night Girl,
Ol Vir,
Persuader,
Phantom Girl,
Phantom Girl2,
Polar Boy,
Radiation Roy,
Saturn Girl,
Saturn Queen,
Shadow Lass3,
Shrinking Violet,
SOD Kalibak,
SOD Orion,
SOD Superman,
Sun Boy,
Sun Emperor,
Star Boy,
Star boy2,
Superboy,
Tharok,
Timberwolf,
Tyr,
Tyroc,
Ultra Boy,
Universo,
Validus,
Westerner,
Wildfire,
Wildfire_reboot,
WYLDFYRE:
Brainiac 5
Chameleon boy
Chemical King
Colossal boy
Cosmic Boy
Dream Girl
Element Lad
Ferro Lad Iron
Ferro Lad
Invisible Kid
Karate Kid
Light Lass
Lightning Lad
Lightning Lass
Matter Eater Lad
Mon El
Phantom Girl
Ultra Boy
Lightning Boy
Saturn Girl
Shadow lass1
Star boy
Timberwolf1
EL INSENSATEZ:
Bouncing Boy
Universo
White Witch
Bouncing Boy
Chameleon Boy
Wildfire
Chameleon Boy
Element Lad
Phantom Girl
Karate Kid
Lightning lass
Molecule Master
Mordru
Night Girl
Phantom Girl
Polar Boy
Princess Projectra2
Starboy
Supergirl
Time Trapper
Ultra Boy
Colossal Boy2
C6:
Blok
Karate kid2
Mon El
Superboy
THUNDER:
Wildfire,
Timberwolf,
Triad,
Saturn Girl,
Mon el,
Karate Kid,
Violet,
Cosmic Boy,
Chameleon,
Cosmic boy,
FIRESTORM:
Duo Damsel,
Element Lad2
Brainiac5
Invisible kid2
JKCARRIER:
Calorie Queen
Charma
Esper Lass
Grimbor
Spider girl
FORCER:
tyroc
ultraboy
wildfire
timberwolf
starboy
blok
cosmic boy
dreamgirl
lightning lad
dawnstar
mon el
TIMBER WOLF:
Dawnstar
JUSTIN:
Duo Damsel
Matter Eater Lad
MRS.ARATAK:
Lightning Lad1
Mano
Triplicate girl
INTERCEPTOR:
Triad
ACE FRANKLY:
Brainiac 5,
Wildfire,
Chemical King,
Dream Girl,
Lightning Lad2
Princess Projectra2
Saturn Girl2
Shadow lass2
Sun boy
Timberwolf2
TOXICJ:
Wildfire,
Timberwolf,
Sun Boy,
Star Boy,
Ferro lad,
Element Lad,
Cosmic Boy
AFGHAN ANT:
Kalibak
Supergirl
BFSKINNER:
Cosmic boy (new, cosmic boy pink)
LIGHTNING MAN:
Ferro lad
Mano
DMENACER:
Lightning Lad2
DARKJARED:
Supergirl
FUSION:
Saturn Girl
Lightning Lad2
Ferro Lad
Sunboy
Ultraboy
Timberwolf
Phantom Girl2
Light_lass
Wildfire
Element Lad2
Duo Damsel
Cosmic boy2
So tell us again they are not established precedents for Benton's Mod.
Because it's very plain that A) they are exactly that, and B) their existence has caused no problems whatsoever.
Face it.
Your arguments do not hold water. None of them.
Your facts are wrong.
You are wrong.
You may have meant well, but look at the harm you have caused and tell me truthfully, would Benton's Mod have done as much harm as your arguments against it have done? Have MY mods done the community as much damage as you have in the last few days?
Oh, and thanks for the public insult about the quality of my work being "not that good".
Shows what a classy guy you really are.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.
....
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 11:17:26 PM
avengers special is not as sweeping in skope and lacks polish
lsh is featuring your meshes which is a deterrent for most quite frankly regardless of the skins included. and it is not that sweeping in scope.
no your mods are not precendent setting. you didn't collect the best of the best and try to create something that would elminate a need for people to get anything else.
again with the insults?
Wow, must be getting pretty desperate, looking at those votes, realizing that you really don't speak for anyone, not even your "friends" here.
I know! Insult me again. You'll feel a bit better, and look so clever and reasonable, too.
Deny the factual precedent I've established by some convoluted guess as to what Benton or I was "trying" to do, or how much my meshes "deter" people.
If you are really lucky, you can goad someone into a personal attack on you and you can play the victim card you have been using since you started this. But it wont be me.
But don't let that stop you from the same sort of snide comments you've made about my work for years now, if that makes this all a little less bleak for you.
Honestly, now I just pity you.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 11:53:36 PM
i'm not insulting you tommy. i'm being honest. i'm being frank. lose the ego. you aren't the c6 of the meshing world.
you spent 2 pages taking shots at me and you think i'm going to be complimentary? i'm not even insulting you, i'm not taking shots at you, i'm telling you how the majority perceives your work when compared against your claims. you have fans no doubt. we all do. we can't all be superstars like c6 but that doesn't mean that you can claim your work is strong enough to create a monopoly the way his can and set any sort of precedent.
i'm not desperate at all. the community can vote all it wants.
BG himself acknowledged that the community doesn't have a say in how the creators work gets used. we have to decide that amongst ourselves.
in fact your whole thread here goes against BGs wishes which vertex relayed. instead of taking time off to respect both side of the arguement's wishes you created this thread. you have an axe to grind. keep grinding for the next 30 days until no one is left to listen.
Lol, that's the ticket, imply that I'm egotistical and oversensitive, as well as talentless!
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 11:53:36 PM"i'm telling you how the majority perceives your work when compared against your claims"
Umm...what claims? I haven't "claimed" anything about my work, just pointed out you trying to insult me, yet again.
What else you got? because frankly, I'm loving this.
The stench of desperation clinging to every word you write.
Although I sort of feel bad for you, too. I mean, you can't even get ME irritated anymore. ME.
With the amount of talk about how popular C6's skins are and how no one will want to download any one else's by IPS and his supporters, any noob that happens upon these forums, will realize pretty fast which skins are the most popular. With such statements they've already done more damage than tommyBoy and Benton's Mods combined.
And to think that noobs would only find Benton's Mod and no other custom content before they come across Benton's Mod when searching the Net for FF stuf. Sheesh! Apply reality to your arguments, people.
I may as well give my opinions since I expect this place will be long dead soon :rolleyes:
On the mass content thing I don't really have a problem with it. I missed it when the rule was established so I'm not really sure what the main issues were. Actually I think having a mass resource of older content particularly would be a good idea.
That said permissions would be an absolute must, but that's the usual around here. Might even be best to set guidelines on how we allow such packages to be setup. For example they must include a variety of skinners rather than one say just C6.
-----
Honestly I haven't played a mod in forever so I'm not invested in anyway with Benton's mod. I think the sheer size makes it unwieldy and kinda scares me, but otherwise I think it's good. Now I seen IPS on the subject but I don't recall anyone else other than C6 speaking on the subject of a monopoly (I have only skimmed many posts). I certainly agree with them that a variety of skinners work would be good, but unless there's more skinners concerned about the Monopoly I am withholding an opinion on it.
-----
I can only speak for myself on the monopoly thing IPS speaks of. It's of no consequence to me. I have 100s of characters I'm willing to skin if I had the time, and that's just mainstream stuff. If I ever finished those I work on my original ideas. But this is just me, it's quite likely others will feel differently.
-----
If the mod and titans are anti-torrent for whatever reasons, and aren't planning to change that view, all this talk of mass content packages is moot. They own this place, they get last call on what is posted here.
-----
Lastly, if there had been a sticky somewhere of rules (or perhaps a better term would be expectations) Benton would have seen it and this whole thing might have been averted (although probably not because the mod is in the gray area of that rule). So whatever we decide needs to be written down.
I've maintained the nikskope list very closely because I wanted to avoid any and all problems with nikskope. If someone was planning a skope of Fusion's stuff I wanted to be able to very nicely tell them that wasn't allowed and direct them to the nifskope permissions thread.
I'm willing to maintain all such lists in the future if need be.
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 12:18:32 AM
you're making claims that your work is precedent setting etc. is there something here that i missed when you posted your mods as some sort of reason why bg's mod is justified? i didn't say you were talentless i said your work wasn't good enough to substantiate your claims. specifically i said "not that good." in fact you've made many discoveries the community has benefited from etc. but this isn't about you is it?
again, you spent 2 pages taking shots at me, i don't need pity from the masses over it, but it's pretty hard to be surprised if i'm not specifically nice regarding you.
maybe you're reading into this what you would like to see. you're ranting and raving btw. at least that's how your posts read.
Excellent!
The old "ranting and raving" tactic, one of your favourites. I mean, I've GOTTA bite on that one, right?
Sorry no.
The "claims" I made about my Mods had nothing to do with quality, that is a seperate issue brought up by you. I said that my Mods set a precedent by containing "extra content" (which is factually correct, they do), lots of characters/meshes/skins (also factually correct), thereby proving no "rule" has ever been enforced as to Mod content. And that no harm comes of mods which have those things in. All true.
Your frankly pathetic attempts to goad me by switching this to a discussion of my talent, or ego or axe grinding just aren't working.
Maybe you aren't well. Do you have a temperature?
Let's review our little exchange.
You made a claim that was either a blatant lie, or was wildly incorrect. I picked you up on it. Rather than having the good grace and simple common decency to apologize, you continue to try and bait me, which only serves to amuse me.
Remember?
You falsely stated, as bold as brass, that :
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 10:35:12 PM
tommyboy's mods are also NOT precedent setting in any way since they are all HIS own work..
I rather gently pointed out to you that this was not in fact true, and provided ample proof thereof.
So you changed to:
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 11:17:26 PM
avengers special is not as sweeping in skope and lacks polish
lsh is featuring your meshes which is a deterrent for most quite frankly regardless of the skins included. and it is not that sweeping in scope.
no your mods are not precendent setting. you didn't collect the best of the best and try to create something that would elminate a need for people to get anything else.
though how you would know what I was "trying" to do is beyond me, since you didn't even know what was in the Mods. Oh, you may want to use a spellcheck if you are going to try to use words like "precedent" or "eliminate". Or stick with the little ones.
Next up was the claim of ego on my part, followed by my favourite so far, "ranting and raving".
Have I left any of it out?
Very much looking forward to your next bout of self-humiliation,
Tom
The thread below this one could use some thought out opinions as well. :D
You know as a newer member and player I resent this whole "gimme gimme gimme" thing I don't see it. Plus it makes me and I'm sure others feels as if were ungrateful. I think most of us who don't contribute content due to a lack of time, tools, or sadly talent, are pretty much in awe of those who do or can, but we are also at your mercy, i mean i can request a Snapper Carr skin til my face turns blue that doesn't mean someone will actually do it. We need you guys, plain and simple. You guys really run the show around here. you're the guys who anybody who's still interested in even playing this game turn to .It's sad that something that should have been handled privately or through mods has degenarated into this. Personally i basically dload everything i see, whether i use it or not; everything I ever got off the old websites I lost in a crash, that was like 6 yrs ago, I finally got back to this game last year and am very grateful that this forum (and the yahoo groups) exist. I downloaded the dcug and it's just sitting there, right now I'm too obsessed with sifting thru yahoo grps to play it. In other words I'm a collector, and i bet i'm not the only one here. I thinks it's fair to say that most of us are comic fans ( maybe even disillusioned fans ) and that is the reason we stick around, that's also what brings us together, we shouldn't let a misunderstanding( and that's really what is) tear us apart. Finally, and I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but a lot of this just seems like ego, and i think with a community this small that can only hurt, not help. If this continues i feel i will be forced to make deal with devil and forget all this craziness (and my wife)
I don't even know where to begin...I have tried to stay quiet, to just watch this whole mess unravel and hope that this crap will fix itself. But it has become apparent to me that this will never happen. Why? Because you people won't listen to each other. So I am going to state my opinion on the matter. Like it or not it is my opinion and is not right or wrong, just different.
The "main" issue is about mass downloads, or torrents or whatever right? It seems to me, that ips has a point in the matter that mass downloads may deter some newer members from downloading other content. But it so what? If they enjoy your skin better than mine, then they should by all means use it. This isn't a competition, its about making others happy, and mainly yourself. If we can't see that, then maybe we should sit back and question our own motives before attacking others.
Now the other issue I see, is creators rights. I believe that the creator has the right to have full control of where and how their content is distributed and think that tommyboy's thread is a perfect place to start.
I understand a few of you are hurt that your "fans" have basically told you your opinion doesn't count and you should shut up and get to creating content. I understand the pain and frustration you are going through, but that does not give you the right to insult each other for any reason. We are adults here, I don't think the mods or anyone else should be having to referee your stupid, insignificant fights. I think all those involved should shake hands like gentlemen, agree to disagree and walk away from the situation. I understand there is a need for rules, but those rules should be decided on by the individual content creator and not some sort of faux-Illuminati or the boards as a whole. So stop acting like a bunch of idiotic teenagers, and grow up.
If you have any problem with my post, I am sorry you feel that way. If I offended you, I am sorry, but I assure you this was not aimed at any specific person. If you want to take this personally, then do so, but please tell me through pm as opposed to fighting it out here like you have already done. I respect all of your opinions, and would like the same from you. Thank you
...But did you vote? :P
No, I didn't find the point. Its really just up to Benton, not us.
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 02:00:57 AM
it's about ensuring that there is a variety of creators creating content sharing a variety of work in a year or 2 from now.
I still don't see how Benton's mod or a content pack will actually affect that.
*also completely irrelevant to this conversation "ZWA!"*
Quote from: Podmark on January 28, 2009, 12:36:31 AM
Honestly I haven't played a mod in forever so I'm not invested in anyway with Benton's mod. I think the sheer size makes it unwieldy and kinda scares me, but otherwise I think it's good. Now I seen IPS on the subject but I don't recall anyone else other than C6 speaking on the subject of a monopoly (I have only skimmed many posts). I certainly agree with them that a variety of skinners work would be good, but unless there's more skinners concerned about the Monopoly I am withholding an opinion on it.
Well, why don't we find out who is actually concerned about a monopoly. Which content creator is actually concerned about their content (meshes, skins, FX, etc.)
not being in the DCUG? Which content creators think that the DCUG will actually inhibit players from downloading
their creations, and are actually worried about it? Speak up. Your opinion counts.
IPS I'd leave my wife for your Black Canary
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 02:00:57 AM
vamp i pretty much don't have a problem with what you've said except that i don't feel it extends far enough in scope basically. this isn't about competition and individual rivalry at all... it's about ensuring that there is a variety of creators creating content sharing a variety of work in a year or 2 from now.
I understand your view point. I am sure that it might make some people less likely to try or continue skinning if they think they aren't good enough. But look at it this way, I am a c list skinner, and you are a A list skinner, if the two of us make the same skin, and get into the mod, it doesn't because in the end its going to be the downloader who decides which he likes better. If we are to ensure a variety of content providers are to exist in the future we have to nurture them from when they start, by actually paying attention to their skins from the get go. You could critique, tell him what he is doing good, help with the stuff that need work. Sure he is no C6, but heck C6 wasn't C6 when he started :lol:
I guess what I am getting at is that we as a community are to ensure we exist in the years to come, it is our job to help the newcomers from day one.
Quote from: Podmark on January 28, 2009, 02:08:16 AM
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 02:00:57 AM
it's about ensuring that there is a variety of creators creating content sharing a variety of work in a year or 2 from now.
I still don't see how Benton's mod or a content pack will actually affect that.
*also completely irrelevant to this conversation "ZWA!"*
I'd have to disagree pod,I think that is what the whole mass download thing is about.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 28, 2009, 02:13:00 AM
Quote from: Podmark on January 28, 2009, 12:36:31 AM
Honestly I haven't played a mod in forever so I'm not invested in anyway with Benton's mod. I think the sheer size makes it unwieldy and kinda scares me, but otherwise I think it's good. Now I seen IPS on the subject but I don't recall anyone else other than C6 speaking on the subject of a monopoly (I have only skimmed many posts). I certainly agree with them that a variety of skinners work would be good, but unless there's more skinners concerned about the Monopoly I am withholding an opinion on it.
Well, why don't we find out who is actually concerned about a monopoly. Which content creator is actually concerned about their content (meshes, skins, FX, etc.) not being in the DCUG? Which content creators think that the DCUG will actually inhibit players from downloading their creations, and are actually worried about it? Speak up. Your opinion counts.
I think that is a lovely idea, but I think it may be wise to start in a new thread. One with a little less, um, bloodshed? ;)
Quote from: President Raygun on January 28, 2009, 02:14:08 AM
IPS I'd leave my wife for your Black Canary
:lol:
Quote from: vamp on January 28, 2009, 02:16:56 AM
I'd have to disagree pod,I think that is what the whole mass download thing is about.
It's not really something you can disagree as my comment is really more of a question than an opinion.
Quote from: vamp on January 28, 2009, 01:57:00 AM
No, I didn't find the point. Its really just up to Benton, not us.
well, yes and no.
Benton himself posted this in the thread that spawned all this discourse:
"That's it. This is over. I'm officially asking the Admins to take some sort of action here. I think voting on it as a community, or a ruling by the admins to solve this would be acceptable."
Since the admins seemed otherwise engaged, or perhaps thought it outside their jurisdiction, I started a poll.
Benton may have changed his mind about a poll since.
And Benton of course gets final say on whether it's released or not.
So yes, it's his call, about his mod. But this poll/discussion on his Mod leads to a discussion about Mod Rules, and that is the business of everyone here.
Maybe you are right, and the poll is pointless. If nobody participates in it, it definitely is pointless, so that is sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy you have going on there.
To those tired of all the arguing, to those who want it all to stop, a demonstration of the will of the community will settle
some disputes. I'm sure that there may be others it won't settle, but you have to ask whether you are part of the problem or the solution by not bothering to make your wishes known (other than your wish for us to shut up, of course).
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 02:00:57 AM
ugh. tommy it's just not about you. not even a little bit.
Now that, I have to agree with. All of this is about you. You've started it, you perpetuate it, you won't leave it alone. You, you, you.
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 02:00:57 AMyour mods set no precedence over the issues we're concerned with.
Well, again, and with all due respect, that's something only you have said. Other people agree with me.
In fact, if one were to look at the votes, the community seems to feel that it's you who are wrong, by quite a margin, so far.
Of course that's not binding in any way, so you keep posting and I'll always be here for you.
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 02:00:57 AM
please get over yourself. incidentally, i really hope i spelled something wrong.
I have, and don't worry, you did, Oscar, you did.
:lol: My bad, Pod. I guess I should have asked how you meant it first. I read it as in you saying what IPS said was irrelevant. Whether that is what you meant or not i don't know. Either way, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
And as for IPS and Tommyboy, I understand their are hurt feeling between the two of you, but please settle that through pm. This is far more important than any one of us.
Quote from: vamp on January 28, 2009, 02:29:29 AM
:lol: My bad, Pod. I guess I should have asked how you meant it first. I read it as in you saying what IPS said was irrelevant. Whether that is what you meant or not i don't know. Either way, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Nah it's cool, it wasn't a really clear post. And it is part opinion because I don't see it, the monopoly thing.
*Also irrelevant I love Scrubs*
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 10:35:12 PM
Quote from: Kommando on January 27, 2009, 05:45:28 PM
Other: The people who run Freedom Reborn should evaluate why they are paying good money to run a set of forums dedicated to a game most of them don't even play anymore when one mod causes a crapload of drama over ownership of content, none of which is the creator's Intellectual Property to begin with. So yeah, this sure would be a lot more peaceful place if Freedom Force was dumped altogether and FR became a dedicated City of Heroes forum. No Freedom Force = No Freedom Force Drama. Problem solved.
this is very easily taken care of.
Really hard to convey sarcasm in a forum. Of course I wasn't serious about dumping FF in favor of COX, but in the last few days seeing the mood of the posts is not a pretty picture. FR has bar none been the reason FF has lasted this long. Every snipe I see is another nail in FFs coffin to me, and I have to wonder if anyone even realizes this. I have an interesting perspective as kind of an outsider to Freedom Force. I know that sounds odd, but when my laptop died a couple of years back I lost everything I ever did for the game: skins (including all my bases), hexes (as redundant as they are now), maps, voice packs, hexed keyframes, music, even mods I was working on (I was partway through an AVP mod when my lappy died, not to mention the Dreadstar work I had done with Rain) and the only stuff I have left is a paltry few hexes I have on FX Force. That's actually why I stopped doing FF stuff. So yeah, as someone who comes here to check and see how friends are doing its kind of sad when things get ugly.
Personally, if I were to create content again (which would require finding disks which are in a storage space somewhere), I would make sure that readme file stipulated how I wanted my content to be distributed, and including the readme in the distribution would be one of the conditions. Thus, if creations were distributed without said readme, that would be the first indication that my wishes were not being respected. Of course I would really only care for stuff that was my own creation, thus my own IP. I've said in the past if someone wants to use something of mine, go ahead. Its not my Intellectual Property anyways, so I don't expect more than a mention. Heck if that had happened more, than maybe more of my work would still exist. However, if I happened to care more how my stuff was distributed, and someone did not respect that, the most I would likely do is go on record stating that I dissociate myself with any work done by so and so, and leave it for the community to work out themselves.
Then again, I am surprised when people even read my comments, even more so if they care.
Quote from: vamp on January 28, 2009, 02:29:29 AM
And as for IPS and Tommyboy, I understand their are hurt feeling between the two of you, but please settle that through pm. This is far more important than any one of us.
Sorry, no, I don't think I should do that.
I will continue to reply to IPS. I have not insulted him, called him names or done anything wrong. I have been quite patient about his repeated personal comments, slurs and innuendo about me, but have no intention of allowing him the luxury of continuing to do that via PM, which is all that would happen.
So no.
If he posts at me here, I'll reply. It's my thread, such is my right.
I am not following him to other threads, I am replying directly to his posts here on their content, which has been me, my mods, my lack of talent, my ego, my ranting, etc etc.
If a Moderator or Admin commands me to stop replying to personal comments about me (made by someone who has followed me in here to do that), I will cross that bridge when I get to it.
Otherwise, I would prefer to discuss the topic, but will reply to any post directed at me, whomever it's from. That's only polite.
Sorry if that offends anyone, that is not my intention.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 09:28:43 PM
I hope youre referring to everyone besides me because there is a precedence that was set obviously before you were a member. While there are no written rules, there are a lot of unwritten ones. Such as don't kitbash, don't take mod code and make a few changes and call it your own, and what was most important a few years ago, don't take a bunch of content and shuffle it to the masses.
If it's important, write it down. That's common sense. Is this community above common sense, perhaps? That was a semi-retorical question, because, from some of the posts I've read, it seems it is.
Do you even know what your "unwritten rules" are? Discussion bait. Basically, because you people insist on keeping those rules a secret, you're risking some well-intentioned, yet ignorant of the community's inner-workings sod joining the community, doing something against your secret rules, and then getting flamed out of the community because of it. But I'm sure that's fine with you.
As for you PM, I could only laugh. It is interesting to know how you envision yourself in this discussion, and how hypocritical a view it is.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 10:35:12 PM
wow. what a joke. firstly, blitzzgott is clueless and has no grasp over what's been said at all. if you can't describe the opposing arguement back when trying to describe it, you didn't understand it correctly. like when your waiter repeats your order to you. it's confirmation that they understood what you're requesting. why are you bothering with this conversation?
Do you mind pointing out which post of mine you were referring to? Making an ambiguous comment about something that you're not being clear what it is and then claiming you've won is not exactly fair. Either way, I'll just assume you're responding to my second post in this thread (my response to AfghanAnt). If that's the case, then the joke is on you, because it seems you don't even know what YOU are talking about. What I've said is just that, and you can refer to your own posts over at the DCUG thread if you don't believe me. What you're trying to do is speak for a community that has a voice of its own. I'm quite sure nobody would ever have brought up any arguments against BentonGrey's mod until you did it yourself. How? By deciding, in the name of the creators of the content that was part of the DCUG mod, that their content should not be distributed as such. That's what I've said there. If you refuse to understand that, too bad. But don't worry - you won't be letting anyone down by ignoring facts or "understanding" them in the way best fit for your snobbish responses. That's all you've been doing ever since this struggle began.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 10:35:12 PM
if we were a creator community? that would be great. tons of those exist and thrive. but you know what would happen without creators? you would have moved on 6 years ago. like it or not, without creators as the backbone of this moddable game you would have no activity in this community and people wouldn't still gather here to form a community.
Don't speak for me, because first: I wasn't around six years back, and second: I'd still play the game regardless of user-content. As a matter of fact, DCUG aside, the only meshes I have in my PC are the ones I am using for hero files, which do not even amount to fifty, and I have even less when it comes to maps, FX and what have you. Anyway, as I've said before, "backbone" or not, creators are just users, and are not entitled to more rights than the average user. That's not how I think it should be; that's how it is. The existance of the community wasn't even an issue. I just made that point because AfghanAnt suddenly felt like he should have an active voice in everything, regardless if his comments are harmful or not to the community, simply because he has contributed.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 11:02:48 PM
conversely, as vet members there is NO need for a content pack like this, since we've all collected it over the years already.
this pack is for the noob. it's there to make it easier to just come in here and request a single all in one solution eliminating the need to request more. so by intention it is doing what i'm concerned it will do, and you say it won't do. if it wasn't going to actually do what i say it will do, why would he create it and why would anyone want it?
And so, because you already own everything, the rest of the community can go screw itself? Let the noobs scratch themselves if they want any content? What you're saying does not make any sense. Please list any communities out there that value making the lives of their users HARDER instead of EASIER.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 11:02:48 PM
it's a catch 22. it will do what he wants it to do, and at the same time kill off the remaining creators slowly. do you know how many skinners say... oh so and so already did that character really well, there is no need for me to do that character again. bam. no more content creation. that's how it works.
"Minor skinners filled with hubris", as you have referred to them yourself in the DCUG thread, such as laughting paradox and FigureFan have already given their input on that matter. They don't feel threatened by the work of others. If they skin, they do it because they want to. Besides, all of the skins released on this site, and in any other active website, for that matter, have screenshots showing what they look like. Therefore, the problem you've mentioned would exist regardless of DCUG mod. The only difference is that the users would have to download the same skins Benton used in his mod individually.
Oh, man... So many new posts. I'll just summarize my thoughts, then.
Basically, like I've said before, there is no point to this discussion. People have disagreed with you over and over again. First of all, your points are moot. Everything you say is based on something you believe the community itself believes, which has already been proven not to be true. Your worries? Baseless. The community won't die because of this project, but it certainly will if we follow your policy, since you actually believe that it's all right to make the lives of the community members harder instead of easier, and because apparently you think that spamming the Requests board or browsing countless Yahoo Groups in hopes of finding a certain mesh is a big turn on to the community.
Why don't you look at the poll results, if the other members' posts are not enough to convince you? People do not agree with you. Let go of your pride and finish this asinine discussion you've started yourself, therefore saving the community of a lot of head(and heart, I suppose)ache.
I have one problem with this whole rights argument about whose skins are used and whose aren't, and if someone could explain it to me that would be cool. It's Benton's mod isn't it? He made it. Shouldn't he get to say whose skins he uses. He is spending his time and effort to put this together, why should he have to use skins that he doesn't like? I understand the whole "it's set up for new player's", but they are going to have to come to these boards at sometime. My first post at the old crave boards was because I downloaded Alex's JLA mod. A friend got me to buy the game, and download his mod, and when something didn't work right with the mod I went to the boards and posted. That's how I found out about other people's skins, meshs, etc. And after I discovered all the content, someone on the board was nice enough to tell me how to change meshs, skins, etc, in the game, in mods, and everything else. I don't think the board has changed that much, and I still see older members help out all the time. So I think if it was released people would still have to come to the boards, and then they would discover other peoples stuff. Also didn't Kssaints do a whole lotta skins for this mod? I didn't get to download it, but I'm pretty sure C6 hasn't skinned every DC character.
Quote from: jeremy355 on January 28, 2009, 03:25:26 AM
I have one problem with this whole rights argument about whose skins are used and whose aren't, and if someone could explain it to me that would be cool. It's Benton's mod isn't it? He made it. Shouldn't he get to say whose skins he uses. He is spending his time and effort to put this together, why should he have to use skins that he doesn't like? I understand the whole "it's set up for new player's", but they are going to have to come to these boards at sometime. My first post at the old crave boards was because I downloaded Alex's JLA mod. A friend got me to buy the game, and download his mod, and when something didn't work right with the mod I went to the boards and posted. That's how I found out about other people's skins, meshs, etc. And after I discovered all the content, someone on the board was nice enough to tell me how to change meshs, skins, etc, in the game, in mods, and everything else. I don't think the board has changed that much, and I still see older members help out all the time. So I think if it was released people would still have to come to the boards, and then they would discover other peoples stuff. Also didn't Kssaints do a whole lotta skins for this mod? I didn't get to download it, but I'm pretty sure C6 hasn't skinned every DC character.
Well, its a little more detailed than that. Had he used only the amount of skins/meshes that were going to be in the story, I'm guessing it would have been fine. But he had a some extra content which was not used, so to some it appeared more like a mass downloader. Thats about all the facts for now. What you get from it, and decide is all up to you. ^_^
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 03:08:53 AM
grind grind grind that axe bud.
Lol, weak. But keep posting to me, and I will reply. Every. Single. Time.
Is that axe grinding on my part, or simply replying to you? I think the latter.
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 03:08:53 AM
it's not all about me. i'm not the one creating threads on any of the issues. 30 days. you just couldn't leave it alone no matter BGs actual wishes. isn't this your poll? getting enough attention? you're the one carrying the torch grinding that axe.
Well, allow me to answer this by referring you to my quote of Benton on holding a poll, in which he says he wants one (just after one of your many, many posts in his thread, actually) and also to this post of yours earlier today:
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:31:41 PM
if you want to discuss bentons mod let's do it now. i personally don't want to wait 30 days for an argument if it's really just a ploy to discuss benton's mod again.
I took you at your word that you wanted to discuss Benton's Mod today. I'm sorry, my mistake.
Whilst I may be grinding an axe here, I think everyone in this community who has followed this can see who owns the axe. It has your initials monogrammed on it. I promise I'll give you the axe back so you can continue to protect us from ourselves.
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 03:08:53 AM
your poll which includes non-creators is 32-1 in favour of releasing the mod. guess what i voted? the bold option. i'm the one little guy that voted "Add Missions to the Mod which use the extra content and we are good"
*sarcastic mode* I wonder who could possibly have put in that option which you so bravely voted for? Was it you? No, because you don't want a poll. You just made that clear, with your hilarious "axe grinding" comment, above. *sarcasm off*
I'm glad someone voted for it though, because I felt it a reasonable compromise attempt. So all sarcasm aside, thank you for that, at least. I appreciate that someone else thought it a viable alternative.
But you do know I will have to keep replying to you if you address further posts here to me, don't you?
I'm a stickler for good manners.
Blitzgott, I don't have any beef with you so if you want to continue to "bait" me in public, go ahead. You are of no concern to me or my life so I've decided I'm not going to waste time fighting with you or anyone else on this forum. It's pointless and dangerous to my presence in this community.
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 03:13:03 AM
i still haven't figured out why you've involved yourself. it's like we're speaking an alien language. at least when tommy insults me or makes his arguements they are coherent and pertinent.
I find it hilarious that you can take yourself seriously when you post stuff like this.
To enlighten you: I'm part of this discussion because I'm part of the community. There is no sign anywhere saying that only the instigator may choose who takes part in it.
Anyway, I have nothing to say to someone who has nothing to say. Have fun trying to destroy the community.
I know this is the Internet, but a flame war isn't going to solve this issue, and it will drive people away. Everyone please reconsider your next post.
Quote from: Blitzgott on January 28, 2009, 04:15:50 AM
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 03:13:03 AM
i still haven't figured out why you've involved yourself. it's like we're speaking an alien language. at least when tommy insults me or makes his arguements they are coherent and pertinent.
I find it hilarious that you can take yourself seriously when you post stuff like this.
To enlighten you: I'm part of this discussion because I'm part of the community. There is no sign anywhere saying that only the instigator may choose who takes part in it.
Anyway, I have nothing to say to someone who has nothing to say. Have fun trying to destroy the community.
Although we may be destroying the community, I doubt it's what any of us want.
But we seem to have so few options other than further (possibly pointless) discussion. I hope the polls may provide an insight to what the community wants, at least. Knowing that may provide a route forward.
For my part, your views and opinions are very much welcome here, everyone's are.
I realise my own culpability in continuing to engage and debate, after others have suggested leaving it for a while (sorry again, cat), or doing it via PM (sorry again Vamp), or just not doing it at all (sorry again everyone else who has asked for that).
All I strive for and ask of others in this debate is honesty, consistency, civility and to think "what's for the best here?". The last is the trickiest because there are different viewpoints as to the answer. And I aknowlege that my answer could be wrong.
I'm tired, and doubting my actions and motivation. I wish I could be certain I'm all right, all the time, but have been too wrong, much too often.
I was really hoping to avoid doing this, but the level of venom in this and other threads, as well as some...I think exaggerations is the best word, have convinced me to cut short my vacation and make another appeal for civility. I can only assume that many of you people just don't read the posts on these boards. Ha, many people seemed to think I packed up and left forever because of what happened in my thread. I wrote that I was going to leave the boards for a week or two, relax, and get away from all the stress, but that I would be back. Well, I am back, for the moment, but only to try and help the situation here. Apparently the statement I asked Vertex to relay had no effect at all. Please, I am asking one last time, as the author of the mod at question here, stop the personal attacks. They aren't doing any good. This poll is a good idea, although I would have preferred that the matter be handled differently, as I suggested. None the less, we have what we have...including the opinions of many of our content creators, as well as the community at large. I appreciate the support, but the larger issues do need to be solved. I hope that AA's thread will help do so. To that end, I think that I should clear up a few things that have been said about my project.
IPS has stated that my mod is predominantly C6 skins, and this is not strictly accurate. Out of somewhere around 330 characters, 85 are skinned by C6. That may seem like a rather large proportion, but it isn't quite as big as it seems. You see, C6 is a PROLIFIC skinner, and of those 86, 55 are of characters that only he has skinned, or rather, that his are the only skins available for. Alex's Freedom Fortress is a pretty powerful tool for filling out the DC rank and file. You can go right there and download tons and tons of C6 skins, most of the ones that are in my mod. The rest can be found at Ren's site, because most of them are the standard skins for his meshes. So, instead of two locations, my mod makes those skins available in one location. It isn't that big of a change, especially when you consider the fact that 245 skins in my mod are by OTHER skiners. In fact, Kissaints outnumbers the C6 skins that I had any choice in by a decent margin. He has 45 skins in my mod. That is 45 skins that might not see that big of a circulation otherwise, given that he is a "lesser known" skinner. AA, TUE, Rev, Tommyboy, Unkoman, they each have over or around 20 skins in the mod. In fact, my little project includes the work of over 30 skinners, most of them "lesser knowns." While I think this illustrates a point about my work rather nicely, I don't post it to accomplish such. I really am just trying to clarify what I imagine many people don't understand. I myself wasn't clear about the exact layout (although I had my suspicions) until I actually made the count.
On another matter, an excellent suggestion has been made by Tommy, and it is one I myself mentioned in my previous thread. When I mentioned it before, it was with the caveat that I did not think it would solve the problem, because I did not think it would be allowed to solve the problem. Still, it was certainly worth the effort. Perhaps I should have made it more stringently then, but I foolishly thought I could put a stop to this nonsense by removing my mod. Tommy has suggested a massive brawl mission "using" all of the characters. I would be willing to work on this with him. Furthermore, I'd be willing to delay a release until I finished my next two campaigns, which would include several of the characters that are not currently used in missions. Specifically, the JSA, the CSA, several other villains, Aqualad, and several Aquaman villains, and supporting characters.
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 06:40:40 AM
sounds like my and c6's original suggestion personally, not tommy's - although he specifically mentioned how to use it all. but whatever, use the extra content and end this.
Happily. May we all quickly get over the ill-will that this debate has caused.
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 28, 2009, 06:52:23 AM
Quote from: ips on January 28, 2009, 06:40:40 AM
sounds like my and c6's original suggestion personally, not tommy's - although he specifically mentioned how to use it all. but whatever, use the extra content and end this.
Happily. May we all quickly get over the ill-will that this debate has caused.
Yes, it's true.
IPS did try to suggest compromises early on before we all attended the international festival of dumb.
And the idea I put into the poll was, I believe originally mooted by IPS, or Benton, or both at different times.
So we finally have a way out with regard to Benton's Mod, and maybe some new ideas for codifying our rules, and what those rules are.
I'd like to repeat my apologies for my part in perpetuating any of the needless bickering, to both those who asked in various ways that I not do it, to those I argued for, or against, and to the wider community. I promise not to do it again until next time...No, seriously, I hope I've learned something here. I hope the community has.
Oddly, I'm leaving the thread open because reasonable people may have reasonable points to make, and not everyone has been as bad as I have.
Please learn from my mistake, that a good intention doesn't make everything you post right, or nice.
But I think I may have said enough.
We have an accord, and, I hope, more than five people left here.
OK EVERYONE START MAKING UP SMART INTELLIGENT DECISIONS, NEXT ONE ACTS LIKE A SMARTASS WILL BE GET MY BOOT SO FAR UP THERE arse THEY'LL TASTE SHOELACES
:banghead:
Man, I'm glad nobody liked my content enough to use it in anything.
Ahem.
Is this on?
Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on January 30, 2009, 01:13:57 PM
Man, I'm glad nobody liked my content enough to use it in anything.
Ahem.
Is this on?
I use your skins, they are great.
Dunno why none got into AvengersSpecial, it was released in 2004, how many skins of avengers had you released back then?
Oh. I think the four old-school Avengers were released by then. Quicksilver, The Vision, Captain America and Wonder Man, I think.
I wouldn't have minded if they were included. All I've ever asked is that my skins aren't altered and re-released, and that I get a heads-up if they're ever used in any other capacity, just so I know. :D
Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on January 30, 2009, 02:05:23 PM
Oh. I think the four old-school Avengers were released by then. Quicksilver, The Vision, Captain America and Wonder Man, I think.
I wouldn't have minded if they were included. All I've ever asked is that my skins aren't altered and re-released, and that I get a heads-up if they're ever used in any other capacity, just so I know. :D
I know I added all those into my personal playing copy, but I must have missed them somehow prior to release :(
I've been away from the FF community the last while for the usual reasons (FF machine died, got a new job that demands my attention, etc.)
I stopped by Freedom Reborn last night to see what cool things people are up to and ... oh my. I feel like the time-traveler in a science fiction story who returns from the past only to find his cosy, happy home turned into an apocalyptic wasteland.
I've cast my vote, and having done that I intend to get back into my time machine and travel far, far away. Perhaps the next time I return to FR the bitter, hostile, prickly wasteland full of empty talk will have returned to the happy, welcoming, supportive place full of cool things I used to know.
I didn`t get involved in discussion, because I`m not a content creator (I did few skopes for Alberik, but thats it), but as a member of the community I`m glad that common sense prevailed. Both sides had some good points, and I voted for using the extra content option, because it deffinitely seems like the best solution both for Benton and the content creators. Cheers! :thumbup:
Now see....I was intending to add a couple of Non-playable characters that I hexed and skinned with my mod...Now I'm not, just so I won't peeve anybody off.
Hopefully, the fact that I made all the maps, skinned all the characters and made all the voicepacks isn't going to inadvertently cheese somebody off. I gave credit for everything that's included as part of the mod, so I should be safe.
Dana
Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on February 02, 2009, 04:47:12 PM
Now see....I was intending to add a couple of Non-playable characters that I hexed and skinned with my mod...Now I'm not, just so I won't peeve anybody off.
Hopefully, the fact that I made all the maps, skinned all the characters and made all the voicepacks isn't going to inadvertently cheese somebody off. I gave credit for everything that's included as part of the mod, so I should be safe.
Dana
Actually, I don't think original content is in contention here. You can add those original characters, no problem.
Quote from: Kommando on January 27, 2009, 05:45:28 PMSo yeah, this sure would be a lot more peaceful place if Freedom Force was dumped altogether and FR became a dedicated City of Heroes forum. No Freedom Force = No Freedom Force Drama. Problem solved.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :eek2: :shock2: :eek2: :shock2: :charonwow
The Freedom Force aspect of this community isn't like it used to be. I think the odds of someone downloading the mod just to use all the extra skins and stuff is low. Not a whole lot of new people are buying up Freedom Force and starting to get into it, the rest of the people know how to get resources and know who made them. It's not me getting "hurt" by this, so maybe that's why but I think there's nothing to worry about. Benton just wanted to have all the characters available to use, he didn't work 3 years on this mod because he wanted to make a content torrent and he isn't advertising it as such.
The people who are upset about this either
1.) Didn't have any content they made in the mod and I guess think that someone won't download their stuff because everyone can just download DCUG to get the stuff from there. Which is unlikely to have much of an effect (because I'm pretty sure very few people are downloading things these days), wasn't Benton's intention, and is really not different from any other mod, their "problem" would still exist if he DID use all the characters in campaigns. But why should he have to put them in campaigns before releasing this?
2.) Did have content they made in the mod and don't want him using it. Well then I'm not sure why you made it, but I can understand that and I'm sure Benton would have removed it. But I don't think anyone even complained about this.
I voted No, I have another objection.
The problem with Benton's mod was that he distributed and used content in a manner that is against the intent of some of the content creators. He is working to correct that situation however. Once the content is used towards the intent of the content creators then I no longer have an issue with the mod. I wouldn't post here, but if the poll is used in any sort of decision making then I wanted to get my vote in, and the option I voted for specifically asked for a reason why I voted the way I did.
That's not true, Nymie, I distributed the content in a way that was against the intent of ONE creator, who's work I removed. The rest of the creators gave consent and supported the project in one way or another. Even those who had reservations still agreed that I could release it.
Folks, I have removed some recent posts and I am locking the topic, as will surprise no one who saw some of the posts removed. Which posts were split out is somewhat arbitrary, since it was tough to decide where things went too far.
My current intent is that the locking be temporary. The posters with itchy trigger fingers need to give this topic (in this thread and others) a rest for a while and it won't hurt anyone to let this go until tomorrow.
Okay, the thread is unlocked again. If people want to continue this discussion, then let the watchword be "civility".