Ok, this for some reason bothers me and I don't know why. Many years ago Marvel and DC did the vs game with their two universes pitted against each other. Hulk vs Supes, Cap vs Bats and Storm vs Wonder Woman. Ok, the 1st 2 I could see. Both pretty similar builds. But Storm vs Wonder Woman? WHy? Storm is nowhere even close to a match with the Amazon. SO, my question is this; who is Wonder Woman's counterpart in Marvel? Mine is going to probably be Ms. Marvel due to the fact I think she's the most powerful female on the earth for marvel.
Also, feel free to do other compariosons as well. Now, before you go and say all DC heroes are written to be more powerful, remember if they fought, the power levels would be at a even playing field as was seen in that crossover and the JLA/Avengers one as well. Oh, Squadron Supreme does not count as they are just the JLA.
i always hate marvel/dc crossovers.especially when they clash.when they did the dc v.s. marvel awhile back it was crap.it was one big popularity contest.yeah,i guess ms.marvel is the closest thing marv. has to wonder woman.my opinion is this on the battles...1.)hulk v.s. superman-strength wise a raging hulk has the edge on supes but supes strength plus speed would probably eventually win out unless hulks rage enhanced healing countered the punishment.(hard call) 2.)storm v.s. wonderwoman-storms weather abilities would be brutal but what ww didnt deflect i think she could take the pain long enough for a knock-out. 3.)aquaman v.s. submariner-sorry benton but they're matched in every way but power and namor has way more.gotta go with namor. 4.)cap v.s. batman-no shields or gadgets i'd put money on the red,white, and blue.eventually he'd wear batman down.5.)lobo v.s. wolverine-lobo..no doubt. 6.)capt. marvel v.s. thor-power wise evenly matched but thors hammer would give him the edge 7.)superboy v.s. spiderman-i think power would win the day.spidey's speed and danger sense would help him avoid alot of punishment but eventually i think supes would get him.8.)flash v.s. quicksilver-hands down flash is just to fast. 9.)silver surfer v.s. green lantern-i'd have to go with the herald of galactus.not knocking gl's power but he's flesh and blood where norran is cosmic enhanced off the charts physically not to mention his power cosmic.id say the surfer could even take down superman.
Damn herodad1, I wished that you wrote that crossover! I completely agree with you on every fight. If it would have been done right, that crossover could have been fantastic.
Heh, Namor got beat by a whale falling on him. Sad sad sad.
If they did the crossover today, we could have:
Superman Vs Sentry
Wonder Woman Vs She-Hulk (a much better match up)
Nightwing Vs CapBucky
The DC vs. Marvel crossover had one flaw: the results of the fights was determined by fan vote, not off what would really happen considering each character's skills, experience and powers (if it had been, Thor, Namor and possibly Captain America would have been the only Marvel characters to win - remember: the Spider-Man in it was Ben Reilly; Peter would have figured out a way to beat Superboy).
I think the fights that were handled best were Superman vs. the Hulk, Thor vs. Captain Marvel, and Captain America vs. Batman. A Batman vs. Captain America fight could go either way, depending on the circumstances. Cap is stronger and has more endurance, but I'd give Batman the advantage when it comes to fighting skills (Cap no doubt has more experience, but Batman is trained in more fighting styles), plus Batman would fight dirty.
As much as I like both characters, Aquaman vs. Namor would be no contest. Namor has a serious strength and durability advantage and he can fly. Aquaman would have to get fish to help to even have a chance of surviving the fight!
Oh, and tommyboy, nice crossover list, but I'd add:
Green Arrow vs. Hawkeye - they'd probably shoot each other's arrows out of the air then have to go at it mano y mano, and I'd have to give the advantage to Green Arrow, since he's had his hand to hand combat skills upgraded the last few years.....unless Clint has some growth serum handy. (Hawkeye was trained in hand to hand combat by Cap, but we rarely ever see Clint actually fight hand to hand unless he's Goliath) Would be interesting if Clint uses trick arrows and Oliver uses regular ones.....
interesting about GA and Hawkeye...are you not including Clint's recent handle of Ronin? Cause under that identity, he does a little more melee combat...albeit usually with weapons.
Some other obvious vs. battles, imo, would be:
Deadpool vs Deathstroke
Ice vs. Iceman
Fire vs. Torch
Aquagirl vs... um...namora or namorita?
I would say both She-hulk and Ms. Marvel would be better counterparts to Wonder Woman than Storm.
In a supposed Sentry vs. Superman fight, all Supes would have to do is say, "You know you're a pale imitation of me, right?" And the resulting existential angst would leave the Sentry crippled for months.
Lol. That, or soap operas are on. He loves him some General Hospital.
What about Thor vs. Superman? While I don't think either of them is going to one punch the other, Supes is NOT going to like magic lightning bolts...
Iron Man vs. Steel? IM has it all over Steel.
Creeper vs. Spider-Man. Now THIS would be a fun fight to watch. Preferably from a distance. And don't say "But Spidey would just web Creeper", Creeper should be able to dodge the webs. I think Spidey would win in the log run. Creeper vs. Daredevil might be fun too. Or (Ted Kord) Blue Beetle vs. either Spidey or DD.
A combat between Captain America and Batman should go pretty much like the two times I've seen them go to it: after a miknute, each steps back and they talk it over. Not that either has any doubts that they could win, it's just likely to take a llllooooonnngggg time.
Captain Marvel vs. any Captain Marvel: The Big Red Cheese SHOULD be able to win, but, as we all know, his Wisdom of Solomon is on an 8- Activation roll (Champions players know what I mean).
What might be fun is if The Squadron Sinister went to DC Earth.
My favorite bit in the older crossovers was when Lex Luthor threatened to blow up the Earth when faced with defeat, and Doc Ock said (basically) "Are you out of your mind?"
And you know that who would actually win any such contest would depend on who was writing it...
Quote from: Previsionary on December 27, 2008, 06:47:11 PM
Deadpool vs Deathstroke
Old skool Deathstroke would pwn Deadpool. In the first Marvel vs. DC I read Deathstroke beat down a good portion of the X-men by himself. I think it would work better as Deathstroke vs. Cap.
My question is this can adamantium cut Superman? :mellow: My guess is no! And I know he is probably not as popular as Sentry is now but how about Gladiator vs Supes? :huh: even better I would love to see the Imperial Guard vs the Green Lantern Corp even though the Imperial Guard is the Marvel counter part to the Legion of Superheroes
This is how I see it:
Superman vs Gladiator
Batman vs Daredevil
Wonderwoman vs Rogue
Flash vs Blob :P
Green Lantern vs Magneto
Wolverine vs Lobo
Spider-man vs Plasticman
Captain America vs Deathstroke
Ironman vs Lex Luther(Battlesuit)
Hawkman vs Falcon
Nightwing vs CapBucky (good pick TB)
Captain Marvel vs Thor
Catwoman vs Blackcat
General Eiling vs Hulk
Adamantium can't cut a number of people in the Marvel universe already - the Sentry, the Silver Surfer, X-23's handler whose name I can't remember - so I'd say Superman is definitely safe.
Gladiator vs. Superman also goes to Superman due to legeal precedent. I believe it was set by the landmark case of Carbon Copy vs. Source Material.
The real question comes down to this: who wins? Mohawk or spit-curl? Who really has better hair? :doh:
Spit curl? What about post-Doomsday swinger mullet Superman? :)
Kurt Busiek's take on the two universes in JLA vs Avengers handled this the best in my opinion.
Both sets of characters are totally given their due, whilst acknowledging that the DCU is generally higher powered. The reaction of both groups on seeing each others worlds is really well done. No fanboy choices as to who'd win, just a seasoned impartial professional writer who obviously loves both universes.
Its also drawn by George Perez, and even features a picture of the Marvel Universe and DCU incarnated and snogging. If that dont convince you I dont know what will. :)
Quote from: Spe-Dog on January 02, 2009, 10:55:39 PM
The real question comes down to this: who wins? Mohawk or spit-curl? Who really has better hair? :doh:
I've always been partial to "crazy comic book hair" myself... guys like Timber Wolf and Wolverine... I mean, the only way you can get hair to stand up that way is to either not shower for months on end or dunk your head in a tub of hair gel, and neither guy looks like the type to invest in grooming materials.
Quote from: zuludelta on January 05, 2009, 06:28:46 AM
Quote from: Spe-Dog on January 02, 2009, 10:55:39 PM
The real question comes down to this: who wins? Mohawk or spit-curl? Who really has better hair? :doh:
I've always been partial to "crazy comic book hair" myself... guys like Timber Wolf and Wolverine... I mean, the only way you can get hair to stand up that way is to either not shower for months on end or dunk your head in a tub of hair gel, and neither guy looks like the type to invest in grooming materials.
Be glad this isn't a manga forum.
One thing ive always wondered about Superman concerning his weaknesses ..besides kryptonite i mean how good are his abilities in defending some sort of mental attack from say Professor X. Granted Superman could snap baldy like a twig but could Prof throw some mind attack on him to the point of doing any serious damage?
I would die and go to heaven if Garth Ennis wrote a Punisher and Hellblazer crossover.
I think the Prof could definately do damage to Supes. Max was no Professor X. Yet he was able to completely control the man of steel. Charles could probably just say, Sleep. Goodnight Irene.
I concur.
Charles would just need to look at Superman funny to stop him in his tracks.
Conversely, Superman could fry him with his heat vision from the stratosphere before the Professor could form a coherent thought, so its a first strike wins match.
question...what did you mean by DCU being higher powered?
I don't know about DCU now, but in the past it's characters were waaaayyyy over powered compared to Marvel. Take a look at the DC Heroes role playing game.
Yeah, I just meant DC characters are generally more powerful in terms of what they do in the comics.
The Flash is a pretty good example. He's fast enough to vibrate through solid matter, run through time, create tidal waves on request and search a city house by house in a few seconds.
Marvel superspeedsters tend to run at 100s of miles per hour, in comparison.
Neither approach is better than the other, its two kind of different takes on the superhero genre. Both universes have their different power tiers of course. Marvel has the whole cosmic stuff - characters like Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel, Adam Warlock and Drax, or the Eternals could probably match a few of DC's heavy hitters.
DC has its fair share of non-powered martial artists, like the Bat-family or Birds of Prey.
But Marvels main ground tends to be the sort of semi-powered hero with a few interesting tricks like the X-Men or FF, whereas DC deals mostly with the plot-device level characters like Green Lantern, Supes and the Flash, who can handle natural disasters by themselves.
Yeah, let's not forget Silver age Supes being able to move planets. Hell, Superboy Prime was moving planets because he was from that age. Recently, Superman fried about 100 Doomsday clones with his x-ray vision at one time. Granted though, in a fight between the 2 universes, they would have comparable power levels as shown in past altercations.
Quote from: thalaw2 on December 30, 2008, 01:45:58 AM
Quote from: Previsionary on December 27, 2008, 06:47:11 PM
Deadpool vs Deathstroke
Old skool Deathstroke would pwn Deadpool. In the first Marvel vs. DC I read Deathstroke beat down a good portion of the X-men by himself. I think it would work better as Deathstroke vs. Cap.
I read a comic in which he defeated the a majority of the Justice League except for GL (who he almost took out). Identity Crisis? He cut Zatanna's throat, and held his sword out so Flash would run into it then I guess he had . Though maybe that was just because their most powerful member, Batman wasn't there. Anyone can beat anyone if that's how it's written. Dr. Fate could defeat the JL by himself. OR Batman could defeat all of The Avengers. But in a straight fight with Batman, Captain America should win every stinking time:
Batman - Bat Fu and projectiles
Captain America - Superhuman fighting abilities and a shield.
If Batman is equally matched to Cap in fighting, then what the hell are Cap's abilities anyway if he isn't guaranteed victory over a normal human?
Personally I'd rather see Captain America pitted against Uncle Sam of the Freedom Fighters.. The symbol of America versus the Spirit of America. Cap being very heavily emotionally affected by how Americans feel about something and Sam physically affected by how much faith and American Spirit currently is out there.
I believe Batman has never beat Deathstroke one on one. I personally would like to see Deathstroke vs Taskmaster. Slade is smart and all and very cunning, but with all the fighting styles Task has mastered he'd be in for a long fight. Plus, the longer they fight goes Task would have the upper hand.
drrr sorry I see that as a very short fight, Slade is only in trouble if Task manages to get video of him ahead of time to prepare. Besides honestly.. Taskmaster doesn't have the heart for battle that Slade does and in a fight like that.. it's all about who wants it more.
all these reasons are why the two universe's are better off separated.the differances are to big.one based more on fantasy,the other more on reality.one doesnt give an inch where the other a mile.i myself like a more reality based world where the weaknesses of the characters makes them interesting.the characters of stan lee,jack kirby,ect..werent created to be better than the compitition, they just wanted to tell great stories.sometimes i wish both dc and marvel could be like they were years ago.simple times and better stories.things have gotten too complicated and out of hand and have lost that comic magic.i miss the feeling i would get picking up an issue of one of my favorite comics and really enjoy the stories and the characters i grew up with.
BWPS:
That fight in Identity Crisis was one of the worse written ones I've ever had the pleasure to read and then rant about on the internet.
I mean, Slade shows how clever and skilled he is by handcuffing Black Canary and sticking a ziploc bag over her head mid-combat?!!!? Did he suddenly forget every single punch/nerve blow/whatever that can stun or knock out a non-invulnerable opponent? Come to think of it why didnt he do the same to hairy chested Hawkman or man-in-tights Green Arrow? You cant fly if you cant see, and cant fire a bow and arrow in handcuffs. Or would that look too [MOD EDIT]corny[/MOD EDIT]?
Anyway...
Thank you deeply for giving me the opportunity to rant about this scene once more :)
Herodad:
Both DC and Marvel are heavily based on fantasy and reality, and I think that magic can occur when the two universes are brought together. Not every time, but X-Men/Teen Titans by Clarement and Simonson was one, and JLA/Avengers by Busiek and Perez was the other that springs to mind, like I said before.
Go read JLA/Avengers. Busiek addresses the different power levels really well. He isnt showing favouritism to either, even acknowledging that Marvel's heroes have to work harder than DCs to protect their world.
But all the way through these little "facts" are dropped - Marvels Earth is slightly smaller due to the extra fictional countries and cities DC accomodates, Superman finds the Marvel sunlight has a "greasy" quality (like its drawn by a different artist). Cap and Supes are both sort of unnaturally on edge due to the bad cosmic vibes brought about by the universes colliding, and used as mouthpieces to criticise what each thinks are the worse features of each other's worlds.
It is really well done like that, while at the same time being a cool action story. Its full of comic magic, if you ask me.
With regards to character's weaknesses making them more interesting, I agree that's true, but I think its an argument that's sometimes overstated in the case of Superman and other DC characters. Superman's powers are very well defined, and he has multiple weaknesses, and really there are many ways that a writer can still challenge a being of that power level. Not only Kryptonite, magic and red-sun energy, but his parents, his wife, co-workers, the fragile secret identity that keeps them safe, his refusal to play dirty, the tug of his alien heritage vs his American upbringing. All of these can and have been used to tell good stories, in just the same way that Spidey's money troubles and insecurities do.
Quote from: BWPS on January 07, 2009, 01:38:29 AM
If Batman is equally matched to Cap in fighting, then what the hell are Cap's abilities anyway if he isn't guaranteed victory over a normal human?
But Cap
is a normal human. He just took a serum to get where Bats got through hard work and determination.
In all honesty, I don't find much that separates DC's stable of super-people from Marvel's or vice-versa. At their core, the majority of their superheroes (and most of Image Comics and Wildstorm's as well) are hewn from the conservative and patriarchal archetypes that populate a lot of classic and modern folklore. Attempts at revising the role of the superhero in his/her fictional universe, for some reason or another, don't seem to succeed on a commercial level or are limited to a niche readership (such as Marvel's failed New Universe and Epic Comics experiments during the mid-1980s), or if commercially successful, are relegated to "What If... ?" or "Elseworlds" type alternative-reality stories (see Mark Waid's Kingdom Come, Moore's Watchmen, Grant Morrison's Animal Man run or the first 6 issues of Millar's The Ultimates).
The differences between the two companies were more pronounced, I think, during the period between the 1960s and the mid-1970s, when Marvel, under the tutelage of editor-in-chief Stan Lee, made a consistent effort at distancing itself from DC, painting itself as the more "hip" and "with it" publisher in contrast to DC's more traditional stance. Lee's efforts resulted in characters that were significantly different from DC's mainstays at the time (for instance, while teen sidekicks like Robin, Speedy, and Kid Flash were a common occurrence in 1960's-era DC, Marvel generally eschewed them in favour of full-fledged teen superheros headlining their own books like Spider-Man and of course, the first generation of X-Men). To that extent, Marvel succeeded in breaking away from the patriarchal model (Marvel superheroes, at least in the case of guys like Spider-Man and the X-Men, weren't father-figure stand-ins but were meant to be the readers' contemporaries).
That difference began narrowing almost as soon as it was engendered, however, and now we're at the point where any "comic book civilian" probably wouldn't be able to tell you which company publishes what characters.
Yeah. You're dead right, this is like discussing the difference between McDonalds and Burger King vs all other foodstuffs out there. There's still some kind of minor differences for the connosieur to pore over but they're pretty much the same.
At the end of the day they're often being written by the same people, so its hardly surprising. I don't think theres anyone quite as influential as Stan Lee is currently working exclusively at one company for their entire career.
Quote from: DrMike2000 on January 08, 2009, 11:58:41 PM
At the end of the day they're often being written by the same people, so its hardly surprising. I don't think theres anyone quite as influential as Stan Lee was currently working exclusively at one company for their entire career.
Great point. Back in the 1960s, you had creatively far-reaching guys like Carmine Infantino doing almost exclusive DC work, and being one of the major architects of the DC universe at the time, his personal stamp could clearly be seen on everything from character design to editorial decision-making. Same thing with Stan Lee (and to a lesser extent, Jack Kirby and John Romita Sr.) over at Marvel.
These days, there's a lot of cross-pollination in between the Big Two in terms of talent and editors working for the one publisher and then the other, such that they've blurred the lines of distinction when it comes to a lot of the Big Two's respective published material.
Why do we always end these discussions with it depends on writing?....it seems like a crap out IMO.
Fact..Cap and Bats are at the peak of human fitness. Bats did it through intense training whereas Cap swallowed done a formula. Taking that into account I think that 9 times out of ten Bats will whip Cap up and should no matter what the writers write.
Fact..Deathstroke also downed some drugs and got endurance and speed and strength beyond normal humans. Plus, he also had intense training in killing and such. Therefore, he should beat Bats (and has on more than one occasion).
Quote from: thalaw2 on January 09, 2009, 03:00:15 AM
Why do we always end these discussions with it depends on writing?....it seems like a crap out IMO.
Fact..Cap and Bats are at the peak of human fitness. Bats did it through intense training whereas Cap swallowed done a formula. Taking that into account I think that 9 times out of ten Bats will whip Cap up and should no matter what the writers write.
Fact..Deathstroke also downed some drugs and got endurance and speed and strength beyond normal humans. Plus, he also had intense training in killing and such. Therefore, he should beat Bats (and has on more than one occasion).
Actually, its NOT fact about Cap, Bats or Deathstroke. It's FICTION.
Which is exactly why it ALWAYS comes down to who is writing the piece (as well as who is editing and approving it for publication). Sorry.
Well...it's a fact of fiction..... :thumbup:
that's oxymoronic!
You make Cap seem like a marshmallow compared to Batman and that's just not true. Cap did also continuously train until his death, so he has a pretty good percentage of fighting Bat for quite awhile. He may not have a higher percentage of winning, but he could hold his ground and probably win much more than you let on, law. But who CAN beat batman? The dude has shark repellent. Clearly he could even beat Randy. ^_^
Only the anti-batman could beat batman! That's right...Prometheus.
Wouldn't Anti-Batman be Bruce Wayne?
Fact..that is my new thing. made me laugh.
Fact..we have a combat simulation right here. let's agree on some stats and start a match. player vs player would be fun, but danger room ai vs ai would be good enough.
Quote from: thalaw2 on January 09, 2009, 03:00:15 AM
Why do we always end these discussions with it depends on writing?....it seems like a crap out IMO.
Fact..Cap and Bats are at the peak of human fitness. Bats did it through intense training whereas Cap swallowed done a formula. Taking that into account I think that 9 times out of ten Bats will whip Cap up and should no matter what the writers write.
This age old one again, My two cents.
Cap seems even a more a superhuman normal human than bats to me personally. he's certainly stronger. Both are pretty intensely trained and remember batman had to train himself to do a lot more things than Cap did so Cap's training was more focused. I'd call them pretty close myself. Your personal feelings obviously give Batman the edge. I think Cap has the edge but Batman would cheat and win if needed.
Quote from: Uncle Yuan on January 08, 2009, 04:43:45 AM
Quote from: BWPS on January 07, 2009, 01:38:29 AM
If Batman is equally matched to Cap in fighting, then what the hell are Cap's abilities anyway if he isn't guaranteed victory over a normal human?
But Cap is a normal human. He just took a serum to get where Bats got through hard work and determination.
Yeah, right. Need to buy a bridge?
could cap beat the hulk? what about superman?
cause, ya'know...batman beat both those goons.
there's a big difference in the two.as far as fighting skills theyre equal but power wise cap has the advantage.batmans more like a natural athlete where caps the steroid version.under optimal conditions cap can press overhead 800 lbs.,bench around 1,200 lbs.,and reps( curls ) 500 lbs.theres no way batman can do that.bruce trained himself to the physical perfection of his own body.ive worked out for 25 years and know that everyone has their own " peaks ".if you remember in the marvel v.s. dc popularity contest batmans blows hardly phased cap where caps blows sent batman flying.also batman was starting to tire where cap wasnt.thats why batman whipped out the bat-a-rang because the fist-a-cuffs was getting him no-where.cap is at the peak that a human can be before he's considered superhuman.batman is more like daredevils power level.even in the avengers/jla crossover batman admitted that cap could eventually beat him.hulk and superman?sleeping gas, kryptonite,and batman fanboy writers beat them.i have my favorite heroes but compared to some others sometimes youve got the bite the bullet and accept the truth.
Quote from: thalaw2 on January 09, 2009, 07:41:10 AM
Wouldn't Anti-Batman be Bruce Wayne?
Uh, no. All the anti-batmen are villains. Bruce isn't a villain as far as I know. But anyway, Grant described Promy as an Anti-Batman and you can easily tell that from his origin and even his tactics in his first JLA story. That and I hear he was originally supposed to be "Wrath" who is also an anti-batman. But obviously, we just need a random villain like Bane to beat Batman. If Bane could do it, me thinks Cap could. ^^
Are Bats and Cap really equal in fighting skills? Wiki says Cap is a master of multiple martial arts, but that just totally doesn't add up for me. I mean, he gets suped up from a scrawny "fine arts student", then I assume goes through basic training and is shipped off to battle, eventually being blown up and frozen at the end of the war, right? Fighting in the war would give him some combat experience, but as he'd be combating enemies with little hand-to-hand training, I don't think it would hone any useful martial art skills.
Anyway, he gets unfrozen and joins up with the Avengers. This seems like the most logical time for him to be attempting to master "multiple martial arts". So he's got more or less from then until his death to do that. I have no idea how long that is in Marvel time.
Batman on the other hand, has been going at this sort of thing since his first opportunity. He's more or less dedicated his life to it, and trained under multiple great masters in far off lands on inaccessible mountain peaks and the like. He's in a constant state of self-improvement.
Whether Wiki and the books say Cap is such a martial arts master or not, I just can't see how his skills could possibly come close to Batman's when he'd never so much as stepped foot in a dojo until his early to mid twenties.
Perhaps this is why I never likes Steve Rogers much... He comes off as too much of a Mary Sue (stu?) for my liking...
Then again, I'm by no means an expert on the guy, so I could be totally wrong.
Quote from: Zippo on January 09, 2009, 06:27:25 PM
Are Bats and Cap really equal in fighting skills? Wiki says Cap is a master of multiple martial arts, but that just totally doesn't add up for me. I mean, he gets suped up from a scrawny "fine arts student", then I assume goes through basic training and is shipped off to battle, eventually being blown up and frozen at the end of the war, right? Fighting in the war would give him some combat experience, but as he'd be combating enemies with little hand-to-hand training, I don't think it would hone any useful martial art skills...
... Batman on the other hand, has been going at this sort of thing since his first opportunity. He's more or less dedicated his life to it, and trained under multiple great masters in far off lands on inaccessible mountain peaks and the like. He's in a constant state of self-improvement.
... Whether Wiki and the books say Cap is such a martial arts master or not, I just can't see how his skills could possibly come close to Batman's when he'd never so much as stepped foot in a dojo until his early to mid twenties.
[Takes off detached observer hat and puts on comic book geek hat]
See, I'd take somebody with decent practical hand-to-hand training and real in-theater warfighting experience over a dojo rat (even one with multiple black belts) in a knock-down drag out fight any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Put them in a boxing ring or a mixed-martial arts cage fighting under a formalized set of rules and sure, Batman would probably wax Cap's behind with ease, but not in a lethal consequences match-up.
I've talked to and trained with some decent martial artists and most of them would say that there's nothing in contemporary formal martial arts training that compares to the mental commitment that a professional warrior/soldier undergoes when they take the oath to potentially take a life in defense of their country/political party/religion/whatever else it is they're fighting for. Batman might have Captain America beat in knowledge of formal hand-to-hand combat techniques and whatnot, but ultimately, Bruce Wayne's code of non-lethality closes off certain options that remain open to a professional soldier and warrior like Cap, options that, I think, would outweigh any advantages Batman might have in training (assuming that they have comparable physical conditioning and that they're fighting in a winner-takes-all type match, of course).
In terms of practical fighting skills, an encyclopedic knowledge of technique isn't really that much of an asset. In most modern warfighting organizations, the focus in hand-to-hand combat training has always been in the minimization of the number of applied techniques while increasing the potential for lethality.
EDIT:Basically, what I'm saying is that it isn't so much formal fighting knowledge that will determine the outcome of a no-holds barred physical confrontation between Batman and Captain America (or any two real people with comparable physical conditioning and resistances, for that matter), but what limitations they impose upon themselves on what they are willing to do to win. Broadly speaking, the most effective threat-neutralization techniques in any martial arts system (outside the most practical option of running away and avoiding physical conflict altogether, of course) are the ones that contain the most potential for permanent debilitation and lethality (even in "soft" and "non-aggressive" martial arts like
aikido and
tai chi chuan). Bruce Wayne, because of his vow to never willingly take a life, will probably consciously avoid such techniques. Steve Rogers, on the other hand, being a soldier first and foremost would probably be more likely to use them, if not in a standard fight situation, at the very least
in extremis.
Under most circumstances Cap won't be seeking to kill Bats.
For example, if they happen to chillin at the After Hours Cafe and Cap. accidentally spills a little coffee on Bats's cape. Bats says let's step outside. Cap accepts...and they dance. It's unlikely that Cap will try to kill Bats. However, Bats will fight to the death in order not to lose the fight...once Cap recongnizes this he will likely give up becuase he doesn't want to kill Bats over a cup of coffee...Bats wins.
However, if some illusionist gets Cap to believe that Bats is an evil scientist bent on destroying the country, then Cap would likely use lethal force to stop him...But if that same illusionist tricks Bats into believe that Cap is an evil android out to destroy Gotham then Bats will also use lethal force.
Quote from: thalaw2 on January 10, 2009, 01:42:17 AMFor example, if they happen to chillin at the After Hours Cafe and Cap. accidentally spills a little coffee on Bats's cape. Bats says let's step outside. Cap accepts...and they dance. It's unlikely that Cap will try to kill Bats. However, Bats will fight to the death in order not to lose the fight...once Cap recongnizes this he will likely give up becuase he doesn't want to kill Bats over a cup of coffee...Bats wins.
ha ha ha. That's a good set-up for a Starbucks-sponsored crossover.
Yeah, the way I see it is that Cap basically is capable of two settings in a fight: (a) Beat the Other Guy Up Pretty Badly Mode, and (b) Kill The Other Guy Dead Mode. Batman, on the other hand, would have a whole range of settings between the two. In a contest where Cap is given the ethical leeway to use lethal force against Batman (and 616 Cap has shown that he is quite capable and willing to dispense lethal force againt non-powered humans in the appropriate situations), he'd probably win. Any other situation that disallows lethal force, and Bats could probably take him out handily.
I think we have the Cap vs Bats fight wrong. Cap is not the right person. Black Panther is the right one. He is able to counter a foe, is filthy rich and is super smart just like Bruce. He can play dirty too and doesn't have a problem with killing. Your thoughts?
Quote from: thanoson on January 14, 2009, 07:48:05 AM
I think we have the Cap vs Bats fight wrong. Cap is not the right person. Black Panther is the right one. He is able to counter a foe, is filthy rich and is super smart just like Bruce. He can play dirty too and doesn't have a problem with killing. Your thoughts?
The problem, I think, regardless of whom you match up against whom, is that winning is incumbent on variable fight context. To have any fruitful discussion about hypothetical fights, you'd probably want to lay down some strict ground rules first.
Quote from: zuludelta on January 14, 2009, 08:31:11 AM
Quote from: thanoson on January 14, 2009, 07:48:05 AM
I think we have the Cap vs Bats fight wrong. Cap is not the right person. Black Panther is the right one. He is able to counter a foe, is filthy rich and is super smart just like Bruce. He can play dirty too and doesn't have a problem with killing. Your thoughts?
The problem, I think, regardless of whom you match up against whom, is that winning is incumbent on variable fight context. To have any fruitful discussion about hypothetical fights, you'd probably want to lay down some strict ground rules first.
Rules? We don't need no stinkin' rules...
i agree with thanoson, cap shouldnt be parred with bats.bats is closer to black panther,daredevil,the shroud and maybe ironfist.
Cap also shouldn't be forced to fight Uncle Sam. The two would likely feel some sort of bizarre connection and be almost unable to fight each other.
Either that, or the fact that Uncle Sam has strength only one step down from Superman, plus all the fighting spirit of every patriotic American, combined, would make it a short fight.
A much closer potential combatant would be Guardian - even uses a shield, as well. But in this case, Cap would totally flatten poor Joe Harper.
Really, there is no one appropriate for Cap to face thematically speaking without being squished, or clobbering them.
Hmm... maybe Cap vs Deathstroke?
I believe Deathstroke can defeat Captain America. He is superior physically and mentally, more resourceful, has about the same skill as Captain America in hand-to-hand combat, a healing factor, will try to kill Captain America and wields lethal weapons, both melee and ranged.
Quote from: Valandar on January 15, 2009, 10:44:31 AM
Cap also shouldn't be forced to fight Uncle Sam. The two would likely feel some sort of bizarre connection and be almost unable to fight each other.
Either that, or the fact that Uncle Sam has strength only one step down from Superman, plus all the fighting spirit of every patriotic American, combined, would make it a short fight.
A much closer potential combatant would be Guardian - even uses a shield, as well. But in this case, Cap would totally flatten poor Joe Harper.
Really, there is no one appropriate for Cap to face thematically speaking without being squished, or clobbering them.
sorry disagree on Sam vs Cap especially if Sam had to fight Cap in the marvel universe... patriotism there is much more like the real world.. I think Sam would find himself far more ... human there
I disagree.
A majority of people in the United States have at least a little patriotism. Several people have a LOT of patriotism. And after the huge election turnout, a lot more have rekindled that spark.
Even if we say that there are only a hundred "completely patriotic" people in the Marvel US, and the remaining 300,000,000 or so are only 0.01% Patriotic... that adds up to 3000+100 = 31,000 times normal human strength, or able to lift a little over 2300 tons (assuming an average human strength able to lift 150 lbs). Squish goes Cap.
Of course, shortly after 911, that likely would have been closer to the strength of about 150,000,000 people, pushing him into the 1,1250,000 ton range, or a little STRONGER than the latest quantifiable editorial mandate on Superman that we have (the old DC Heroes RPG Post-Crisis, many of his stats were editorial mandate), or even or ever so slightly less than the current Superman (assuming that he really HAS gotten slightly stronger as has been claimed.)
During that Batman/Superman arc with Supergirl, didn't he claim she was stronger than him?
Quote from: thanoson on January 16, 2009, 10:42:53 AM
During that Batman/Superman arc with Supergirl, didn't he claim she was stronger than him?
It was hinted that she
might have been stronger in the Supergirl arc, but a later issue then said Superman's almost always holding back, even subconsciously, and that he is stronger.
It was dumb to even bring up though - why would Supergirl be stronger than Superman? Equal strength, maybe, but I subscribe to the law of diminishing returns when dealing with character copies and derivations, and copies should be inferior to the original.
Which Superman and which Supergirl?
Generally, a man built like Kal El and a woman built like Kara Zor El, the man would be stronger. This would apply, I would think, to two Kryptonians with similar builds. Now, if we put some non-Kryptonian Supergirl in there, I don't know. And I still remember the Sand Thing Saga...
I think I still have a RPG that has a strength table for DC characters on the bottom of the pages. Most of the heroes cluster around on the first few pages. Then a page or two have but on or two entries, then there are a blank page or two, and in there you have J'onn J'onzz, a little further Supergirl, then Captain Marvel, then another blank page or two, and Superman.
The Super-Cousins I grew up with could move planets.
so, daglob's supergirl is stronger than modern superman. take that, you sexists!
who would win, supergirl or she hulk? the fight of the derivatives!
Me and one of my closest friends actually have these discussions alot. He is a hardwired Marvel junkie, and I find myself too attatched to my DC legends. But, we agree that instead of matching heroes up who have similar powers, we try and figure out battles that would either be impossible to call, or just fun to see. Here is a list of some of our fantasy crossovers:
1. the Flash vs the Hulk: Unlimited speed against unlimited strength...too tough to call
2. Blue Beetle(Ted Cord) vs Spiderman (Peter Parker): Peter is easily the more celebrated and experienced, not to mentioned more powerful hero, but how much fun would it be to read a comic with a gageteer insect against a powered spider? C'mon!
3. Deathstroke vs Captain America: the super soldiers of their respected worlds, the confrontation between to two would be a beautiful "Mirror, mirror" moment, one using his powers for justice, the other for profit...again, hard to call
4: Hawkman vs Wolverine: In the end, I usually concede that the Marvel champion in this fight would eventually win...but this battle could rage for a 5 comic series without getting boring, ha ha
5. Batman vs Nick Fury: This is our favorite to talk about. Both men can find anyone anywhere, and both are impossible to find when they don't want to be found. Easily the two most dangerous men in both universes, I can't help but feel that it would be more of a game of "espionage chess" between two masters than an all or nothing fight to the finish
6. Alan Scott vs Magneto: Both old, experienced men who wield awesome power and hold steadfast to their convictions. Not only would this battle be amazing to witness visually, but the dialogue between the two elder statesmen would be worth the price of the comic.
If you liked reading these...I've got more