DC Comics Reboot

[Spe-Dog]

My only real problems with the DCnU is (of course the seams, geez everyone is wearing armor-Superman, the most powerful man on the planet is wearing armor, does that not seem redundant to anyone else- and SEAMS ON EVERYTHING) but the Kents being dead and the lack of Wally West!  C'mon, DC throw him a bone!  Even Kyle Rayner is still around and Wally definitely is more deserving of headlining a book...or at least...you know...EXISTING.

[John Jr.]

Rebooting the reboot, or, why we "love" DC:

Spoiler

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/09/16/retconning-robin-out-of-teen-titans-1/

Fixed.

[Silver Shocker]

Whatever you posted, it's not showing up for me.

My only real problems with the DCnU is (of course the seams, geez everyone is wearing armor-Superman, the most powerful man on the planet is wearing armor, does that not seem redundant to anyone else- and SEAMS ON EVERYTHING) but the Kents being dead and the lack of Wally West!  C'mon, DC throw him a bone!  Even Kyle Rayner is still around and Wally definitely is more deserving of headlining a book...or at least...you know...EXISTING.

DC is really weird like that. They're hesitant to even acknowledge the existence of Wally, Cass and Steph, presumably on the grounds that there's not an organic story-driven way to integrate them into the canon, yet Kyle remains, every male Robin remains, and they've been able to keep Solstice, a character who was only a few months old,  in the Teen Titans books alongside the older characters, even in a tweaked form.

[John Jr.]

I thought DC rebooted their universe to made things less confusing, not more...
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/09/24/bat-times-they-are-a-bat-changin/

[Talavar]

I thought DC rebooted their universe to made things less confusing, not more...
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/09/24/bat-times-they-are-a-bat-changin/

This is the problem with only rebooting 3/4s of your universe.  There's no way to fit everything Batman's supposed to still have done, along with all his various sidekicks, into the greatly condensed timeframe of the new DC universe.

[Podmark]

So I read Teen Titans #0 today:

Spoiler

So Tim Drake, one of my favorite characters, is apparently not really Tim Drake in the New 52. His name is Tim but his last name is fake as his parents have been put in witness protection after an attack by the Penguin. Also he never figured out who Batman is and as we've all heard he started as Red Robin not Robin. Additionally he's a natural athlete and genius, and extremely ambitious.

Some pretty big changes to Tim's origin. Not quite sure how I feel about them just yet. Taken on their own I'm probably fine with them, but as the character I've known and loved for so long I'm not sure. Now the thing that bugs me the most isn't that he was never Robin, or a Drake, or discovered Bruce's identity. No, instead it's that now Tim was naturally awesome. That's not who Tim was before, Tim was the Robin any geek could become. Now he's young Bruce Wayne, and that's a pretty big change.

So far I've been okay with Tim's New 52 portrayal. He's not the same but he's been pretty close. We'll see how these new revelations affect me.

More Batman reveals from the zero issues: http://www.newsarama.com/comics/10-batman-revelations-from-zero-issues-1.html

[thalaw2]

That's terrible!  Absolutely terrible!

[Spe-Dog]

Trying to make all of these changes fit and still have Hal Jordan's and Bruce Wayne's timelines pre-existing timelines still work has liquified my brain and made it run out of my ear.

[BentonGrey]

Well, this is what happens when you try to have your cake and eat it too. 

For my part, I'm extremely frustrated and more than a little disappointed, despite my low expectations.  Ahh...man, they've just squandered such great potential...such wonderful ideas....I knew from the beginning that the bright spots couldn't carry them for long, nor would they last forever....and I tried very hard to not invest any hope in these guys...but it still makes me very sad.  I've loved the Flash book from the first issue...yet even that title is really weakening.  DC has made a profound and foundational mistake in all of this, and I see it extremely clearly with the Flash.  He's a great character, and they created an interesting world for him...but honestly, the untold history they keep referring back to, the years of previous adventures the Flash is supposed to have had, they all seem more interesting than what is going on with most of the book.  I want to read those stories.  I want to see Barry become the Flash, meet these characters that are already his established villains, see the world grow....that's one of the many ways DC has strapped the albatross around their own necks.  Instead of starting fresh, REALLY starting fresh, we get this very uneven experiment, and although the resulting world has interesting facets, its past seems more interesting than the current pockmarked age.

The Flash series, perhaps, is what makes me the most sad, because it is so close to an excellent book...but between the weakness of current stories, the frustrating revamps of classic villains (they all just scream "We're Ultimate and hip!" to me), and the needless inclusion of elements that trouble me, morally, I don't know that I can justify sticking with it.

Aquaman is another example.  "The Others" storyline has just been dead weight.  We're tossed into a tale already in motion.  En media res may be a good storytelling tactic, it may work for the Iliad and Odyssey, but it isn't a panacea, and it doesn't work if you don't take the time to fill in the necessary history.  We're presented with half a dozen new, completely unknown characters, told nothing about them at all, then asked to care about their trails, tribulations, and brutally violent deaths...if we had started with Aquaman's history with these guys, if we had seen him meet them, seen them developed, well, that is a story I would have enjoyed. 

I'm debating whether to cancel all of my DC books, or just JLA.  There's just so little heroism to be found in that book that, as much as I wish I could enjoy those stories, it is the easiest title to drop.  Flash is tougher.  Just as I had made my decision, they told a pretty decent and compelling story in the annual...though it was also crippled by a weak ending and the return of Grodd....their version of whom I really don't like.  I feel like I need to at least ride out the current storyline with Aquaman, but my patience is wearing thin.

It all makes me more than a little anxious to return to the DCUG, to be honest.  With so many examples of what not to do, it makes me long to do it right.

[Spe-Dog]

I have to agree, Benton.  Aquaman, Swamp Thing, and Batman have really come out of this the best and I look forward to reading (reading about what happened online in the books anyway) what happened here monthly.  Superman is my favorite superhero and I have made no secret about it, but they are trying way too hard to make this guy Emo-Man.  They should change Action Comics to Angsty McAngst Comics.  Grant Morrison is interesting and I am still following his take on the character since I trust him and know he plays the long game, but Superman's main title is going nowhere right now; this is NOT the world's greatest hero.  I have no problem with going back to the social crusader version of the character from the 30's but he seems so indecisive and green, even in his own book and JLA which both take place in the modern day!(but you know, Batman has all his stuff under control as always, because he always has a plan for everything, because he's the....well, he's The Batman).

Tim...whatever his last name really is, but it sure ain't Drake.  Wally West doesn't exist.  Hal Jordan is dead or trapped in a Black Lantern ring in favor of making yet ANOTHER Earthling a GL.  The JSA exists on a parallel Earth again.  Barry Allen decided to model his costume after the characters in 'Tron'.  Hawkman is a displaced Thanagarian again I guess, minus the Egyptian reincarnation angle.  Martian Manhunter is not part of the league in favor of CYBORG!?  Everyone has been around for five years...or at least acts like they are five years old.  How is any of this better than what came before?

[Podmark]

The biggest problem with DC's reboot is that it's only half a reboot (if that) and from what I've read not all creators have been 100% on the same page.

A true reboot should have started from day one. So you wouldn't have 4 Robins, you'd just be starting up the first one. A problem with this is that DC would risk alienating a large chunk of it's current audience with no guarantees anyone would buy into the new stuff. Another problem is that many of your writers were invested in those newer characters and story elements. Morrison wouldn't want to give up his Batman Inc stuff, Johns doesn't want to give up all the Green Lantern stuff he's been building up, etc. A third problem for DC is that they need to put out a certain number of titles (around 52) to maintain regular business.

If I'd been in charge I'd probably have done an incremental reboot. I wouldn't cancel any existing books (not for the reboot anyway) but I'd start up a handful of reboot books with top creative teams. These books would start up the New DC universe, so a Batman book, Superman, Green Lantern, maybe a few others, whatever makes sense. You'd need to make sure these writers and the editors are all on the same page and moving everything in a unified direction. As time goes on I'd introduce new books leading up to Justice League and continue until you'd built up a full new universe. Also it's important to tell fans up front that this is the plan.

At the same time I'd continue to publish the existing books, but I'd tell the writers that the long term plan is to move on to the Rebooted universe. Writers would be encouraged to think about proper endings to their books, but without a strict timeline to do so. As time went on books would come to an end/be cancelled, and eventually the universe would come to a close. Maybe quietly with a final Superman story, or maybe loudly with a big final event.

The idea is similar to how Marvel started up the Ultimate universe, but I'm not aware of any strong plan to replace the universe and clearly things didn't play out that way at all.



Anyway that's how I'd handle a company wide reboot (at either company). There's still problems that would arrive. It's still a universe of books and continuity will build up, but to me that's what super hero comics are and some version of that should always exist. To counter that I'd make it much easier for creators to make "elseworlds" style books that could even be ongoings.

[Cyber Burn]

On-going Elseworlds books, that would be cool.

[Spe-Dog]

On-going Elseworlds books, that would be cool.

I second this.  Something along the lines of Elseworld's featuring specific characters or something like Marvel's "What If..." books dealing with specific storylines.

[SickAlice]

I wish I could formulate half the opinions the rest of you can about the New 52, as myself I'm still at odds. I can say " enjoying some, but would enjoy better if " would sum me up.
A lot of the larger name franchise series became less interesting to me, the Batfamily books, Super books (well Superboy is kind of intriguing to me), Flash, ect. I still gobble up the Lantern books, if not out of force of habit, and probably enjoy the structure and storytelling on the main Green Lantern series the most. Surprisingly I don't really get excited for the Red Lanterns series as I thought the opposite effect would take hold. Unlike many, I wasn't riveted by Animal Man nor the Frankenstein stuff. Maybe it's not my personal cup of tea. I seem to be more enjoying Suicide Squad, Birds Of Prey, Stormwatch and Teen Titans than the rest for now. These seem a little more removed to me I guess and therefore a little more surprising...or maybe I'm on a team book kick, I dunno. My opinion of the zero issues was...well hard to place since their seemed to be a variation in what the books where trying to accomplish. Some read like just another issue of their respective series, some like something that should have been saved for a larger handbook or origins type 1-shot, some past stories. I probably could have done without that whole lot to be honest. Personally, just outside of the stories I was reading spontaneously ending as they did for everyone else, I lost my top favorite DC reads at the time prior (Secret Six, Doom Patrol and R.E.B.E.L.S.) I had a bummed out emotion coming in. I can say I'm not that let down ultimately and am enjoying it a bit more than I expected. I'm still reading them anyways, that much is true. I keep looking for comparisons to Jim Lee's Heroes Reborn and it's redux, WW3 (this was a four issue story where the revamped Marvel Universe was amalgamated with Wildstorm for those that don't know) for some reason, but I'm finding it less the case. Lastly, I can say I fully understand the " had to " reasons for this happening, in every detail, which I'm noting where it's happening at Marvel as well. I get it, and I get how things changed so the comics had to radically and fast too, but do find myself asking if they're taking advantage of the situation and maybe changing them too radically and in ways not for the better nor artistic presence, but more for what is tailored to the seemingly best marketing stratagem. Due to the had to's as well, I do not believe we will see a return to the DCU prior anytime soon nor am I going to fixate on hope for that, and will try instead to ride this and whatever comes next out and dig on what seems to appeal to me the best. It's curious to say the most, disorienting the least. Again it's also the new way of course though (where to begin with the huge shuffling process over at the other big company, oy!).

[Silver Shocker]

Anybody read part one of "Death of the Family" in Scott Snyder's Batman? I did and I thought it was great.

Spoiler

The Joker breaks into the GCPD and steals back his missing face, killing quite a few officers in the process, without being seen. He later broadcasts a video recording of a hostage being forced to read a message (a clear homage to The Dark Knight), who turns out to be descended from the victim of the very first Joker case. Batman talks with Alfred, Damien, Nightwing, Tim and Barbara, but tells them not to help him as he has to take of this himself. He claims the Joker is acting out of character. Next The Joker kills the Mayor of Gotham, causing victims to have a frown rather than a smile. Following a clue Batman goes to the ACE chemical plant, where the Red Hood fell in to become the Joker. He finds Harley Quinn who lures Batman into a trap, whereas he is locked in an acid vat. Harley tells Bats the Joker made her do this and he's going to do something bad. The main story ends with the Joker attacking Alfred at the front door of Wayne Manor. There's also a backup story about the Joker forcing Harley to help him with his plan.

[Podmark]

I also read and I also loved it. It is good stuff.

[SickAlice]

Read it, as well as the Batgirl #13 prelude. I didn't read any of the other DCnU bat-books as of yet, sans the #0 issues, and was going to hold out but this crosses into other books I'm current on. I liked it, no real complaints. It already stands up as traditional Bat story, and seems that it will accomplish the job of answering a few lingering questions in DCnu (Harley's stuff in particular of interest to me, yes I'm one of those people).

[Glitch Girl]

Apparently DC took Gail Simone off of Batgirl...

...and she was notified via email.

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2012/12/gail-simone-no-longer-the-writer-of-batgirl/

[Tomato]

I want to give DC the benefit of the doubt on this one, since we don't know why she was taken off the book and she doesn't seem angry about it either... but it's dc, so I dunno. It seems to me like right now they wouldn't want to mess with one of the few well received books coming out of the new 52.

[detourne_me]

Dc has really lost me in recent months, going from 15+ books a month down to 6 (Batman, Wonder Woman, Batwoman, Animal Man, Swamp Thimg and Frankenstein)

This latest blunder....

Apparently Mike Nelson joked on twitter "what? You haven't put enough women in refrigerators?" and Gail tweeted back "funny you should mention that"

[Cyber Burn]

I had to cancel my pull due to financial reasons (I only had four books), but I was getting disappointed with the titles anyway. I was reading Earth 2, Nightwing, Green Arrow, and Flash. Had I been able to, I only would have kept the Flash going, I would have dropped the rest soon anyway.

[Previsionary]

DC has been making some real head scratching decisions lately. The Gail thing is just another example of a creator being forced off a title or a creator willingly leaving. There's been a few this year at DC. Makes one wonder what's happening behind the scenes.

[Talavar]

If this is over ...

Spoiler

something terrible happening to Batgirl in the "Death of the Family" event, I will be angry.

[Podmark]

Gail being kicked off Batgirl is really lame.

[detourne_me]

Snyder's leaving Swamp Thing too, but I think this is voluntary.  I wonder who's going to take over? I might be dropping that book after rotworld

[murs47]

Snyder's leaving Swamp Thing too, but I think this is voluntary.  I wonder who's going to take over? I might be dropping that book after rotworld

Indeed. Unless duties are passed on to Lemire. One can hope!

[John Jr.]

Gail Simone is back on Batgirl.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/12/21/dc-comics-put-gail-simone-back-on-batgirl/

[bat1987]

New 52 Dr Fate debut on the cover of Earth 2#11

http://redbird08.tumblr.com/post/40320724820/earth-2-11-the-new-dr-fate-looks-great-no-more

I actually think he looks awesome.

[Podmark]

That is a pretty cool look.

[BentonGrey]

Now there's a decent redesign.  I prefer the blue, but that is pretty darn awesome looking, and no denying it.