Married Superheroes Equal Low Sales?

[Spe-Dog]

I know this debate has come up before on this board and others, but I put it to you: is superhero marriage in comics a bad thing?  Editorial at the Big Two seem to think so, or at least keep claiming "the fans demanded it".  I don't seem to recall any huge uproar from the fanbase regarding Superman's, Spider-Man's, The Flash's (Wally or Barry), or even Hulk's marriages, but the editors claim that people are "clamoring for it".  Is that true and I am just deaf or is it more the hamfisted approach to voiding/ending/retconning the marriages out of comics that is just ridiculous and creators just use the "fans broke the internet asking for it" claim as an excuse?

[BlueBard]

I believe you're right... it's a ridiculous excuse.

In the cases of both Spider-Man and Superman, the marriages to non-super people gave the main characters depth and grounding.  It made it more interesting to see how they tried to balance their responsibilities.  It made them seem more real.

Admittedly, I'm not sure that the challenges of having a healthy, normal relationship in abnormal situations were depicted all that realistically.  On the other hand, you can't help thinking, "If Peter Parker can hold a relationship together, maybe I can, too."  But then, suddenly, the relationship went "poof".

I'm pretty sure that the true rationale is to allow writers to depict any kind of relationships they want to under the banner of "sex sells".  I'm sure they are also trying to look as if they are "inclusive" toward alternative "lifestyles" and "relevant", even though the reality and normality of married relationships is very relevant to a lot of people.

But I've got to say that I don't really know anything about their target demographic.  Maybe they are on target for the people they want to reach, and we married folks aren't they.

[BlueBard]

It's also kind of interesting to note that the respective writers and editors couldn't figure out how to end either of these marriages (Spider-Man, Superman) in any way that wouldn't make their characters look bad... so they waved the magic retcon wand and "poof".

Kind of silly, when you think about it.  Normal people don't have the option of magic retcon wands... they have to deal with the mess.  If their superheroes were really relevant, they would too.

[Spe-Dog]

One other thing that springs to mind is that, Quesada, Didio, and others have said ad nauseum that one of the things going into these decisions aside from "fan demand" was also that it opened the door to so many more "interesting story" ideas for the characters in the long term and created drama that wasn't there or present with the character being married.  I have read a lot of comics in my time and I cannot recall one story since any of these marriages ended that could not have been told with the married character.  I use Spider-Man a lot just because he has had more stories published since the "un-marrying", but can anyone point to any of his stories told since "OMD" that could not have been told with the same amount of depth and gravitas as they could have been if he was still married to Mary Jane?  Anyone?  In all cases, the story itself that caused the split-up is always told badly and shoehorned into continuity leaving the reader scratching their head and then getting brain melting headaches trying to make the character's history fit, and I'm pretty sure that no fan demanded that.

[Spe-Dog]

Reed and Sue are still married and they have 2 ongoing titles that are doing pretty well in sales and they have been married for 40-50 years.  Aquaman is AWESOME and he and his wife Mera will stomp all comers, and their book is in the top ten!  Bruce Banner and Betty are still married, at least on paper anyways and Hulk's book is doing well and part of the huge "Marvel NOW" relaunch.  And yes, even in limbo, Wally West is still married...although since he doesn't exist as part of the "New 52" perhaps that is not the best example.  Well, there's Animal Man...although his family goes through hell monthly so maybe not the best example either. 

[Tawodi Osdi]

When I was young and reading comics, most of my favorite heroes were either married or had significant others.  The Flash had Iris, the Atom had Jean, Elongated Man had Sue, Aquaman had Mera, Hawkman had Hawkgirl, and Green Arrow had Black Canary (yes, I know they were never officially married, but they had a stable relationship), and I think those relationships enhanced their characters and helped to define who those characters were.  Now, everyone is broken up and troubled making comic books seem like soap operas in tights.  I have never liked soap operas.

[Tomato]

The problem has never been that the fans demanded that the relationships end: That is and always was ludicrous. I have never seen one single fan conclude that any of these break ups was ever a good idea for the character, and have heard nothing but grumbling from fans every single time this happens. The entire notion is a giant pile of garbage wrapped in manure frosting.

The real reason breakups inevitably happen between characters is because it is a lot harder for writers to create artificial drama in a married relationship then it is to do so in an unmarried one. And God forbid we expect our writers to put any effort or thought into their characters at all, to put in the necessary effort in to tell good stories instead of just dipping into the "Duhr, I want to have another cheap break up, duhr."

[BlueBard]

And God forbid we expect our writers to put any effort or thought into their characters at all, to put in the necessary effort in to tell good stories instead of just dipping into the "Duhr, I want to have another cheap break up, duhr."

I could accept break-ups.  Messy break-ups are realistic and full of drama.  Heck, they wouldn't even need to make up a whole lot.  Some of the worst real life break-ups I've known about have been plenty unbelievable all by themselves without superpowers.

I could even accept a death or two.

But no.  They use the absolute WORST comic-book tropes and excuses they can find to just rewrite the relationships out of continuity.  They fail to grasp that readers don't really accept those kinds of changes very well... they just aren't real enough.

Or, if they don't have the time to do that, they suddenly make what was previously portrayed as a very deep relationship into something shallow enough to throw away.  Good writers would develop the situation first, but that would cut into their panel budget over the course of several issues.  Can't have that.

In that sense, they're right.  Taking the time away from superhero stuff to realistically portray relationships would affect their sales.  Nobody's going to want to buy an issue that's all about Clark and Lois having an argument over the household budget.  Thing is, if they'd cut the angst level by about 50% they could do that stuff in a small number of panels and save the rest of the issue for superhero action.

[Talavar]

And God forbid we expect our writers to put any effort or thought into their characters at all, to put in the necessary effort in to tell good stories instead of just dipping into the "Duhr, I want to have another cheap break up, duhr."

I could accept break-ups.  Messy break-ups are realistic and full of drama.  Heck, they wouldn't even need to make up a whole lot.  Some of the worst real life break-ups I've known about have been plenty unbelievable all by themselves without superpowers.

I could even accept a death or two.

But no.  They use the absolute WORST comic-book tropes and excuses they can find to just rewrite the relationships out of continuity.  They fail to grasp that readers don't really accept those kinds of changes very well... they just aren't real enough.

Or, if they don't have the time to do that, they suddenly make what was previously portrayed as a very deep relationship into something shallow enough to throw away.  Good writers would develop the situation first, but that would cut into their panel budget over the course of several issues.  Can't have that.

In that sense, they're right.  Taking the time away from superhero stuff to realistically portray relationships would affect their sales.  Nobody's going to want to buy an issue that's all about Clark and Lois having an argument over the household budget.  Thing is, if they'd cut the angst level by about 50% they could do that stuff in a small number of panels and save the rest of the issue for superhero action.

They want to have their cake and eat it too.  If Spidey & MJ divorce, you need a major reason - infidelity, realization of serious incompatibility, or something big.  That means their relationship is pretty much poisoned - them getting back together is off the table.  But if their marriage magically disappears, they can flirt, date, potentially get back together, and then introduce lots of minor blips and drama that a married couple would just ignore or plough through.  It's crappy writing, no question.

[BlueBard]

They want to have their cake and eat it too.  If Spidey & MJ divorce, you need a major reason - infidelity, realization of serious incompatibility, or something big.  That means their relationship is pretty much poisoned - them getting back together is off the table.  But if their marriage magically disappears, they can flirt, date, potentially get back together, and then introduce lots of minor blips and drama that a married couple would just ignore or plough through.  It's crappy writing, no question.

Exactly.

[lugaru]

My era of Spidey is Married Peter and as a kid I thought it was awesome... he would go out, get in fights, get his but kicked, and come home to a GORGEUS model who was very happy to see him alive. For me it was a soap opera for somebody my age.

For me Peter has always been the most grounded hero... usually broke, real world problems, long term relationships and frequent injuries. If being a bachelor was a big deal, my other favorite hero (Daredevil) would be more peopular than Spidey.

[deano_ue]

joey Q is that you?

[SickAlice]

Overall it smells of the usual and now long standing approach of the Big Two to anything else: Take away what makes the respective character the character they are, or book what it is, sell it as " All New All Different ", wait a bit, then return the missing element back to the story and sell it as " Return Of, The Classic Is Back, ect ". Essentially what they've done is sell the reader both a repainted variant of the same thing, and then resell the version to the reader that they paid for the first time around. Which in fact works, in pretty much any market you can bring up. Is it original or ground breaking? Of course not. But it does work and any company out there is more generally apt to go for what is proven to work and sell as opposed to gambling on a fresh idea. Bringing it to marriage, specifically Spider-man and Superman. So the company takes the element away (in this case the relationships with Mary Jane and Lois Lane) for awhile, and presents us with " What If, What Would Unfold if said characters weren't together ", and as this grows stale and they run out of story ideas for it, then have the characters love reignite (they've already been placing the seeds for this with Mary Jane for some time). You can likewise see the same with the current developments for these two characters, Spider-man achieving a contrasting status in his world as opposed to how he " classicly " operated, and of course Superman being a revamped version of the old, as well as the currently proposed " new Superior Spider-man ". As for the ideal that it's what " the reader wants ", that's ALWAYS how they sell anything friends. " This is what everyone has been clamoring for! Back by popular demand! YOUR Universe! Ect, ". Noting how they always above all else tell you that what they're selling is what your buying. I won't even doubt for a second that my premonition will come true in time, whereas we'll see things become " the way they were ". Then again of course to afterwards see more " All New All Different ". Thus the cycle continues, snowflake becomes blizzard. On a personal level do I care whether these relationships are maintained? On one hand it does seem like the writers perhaps shirked trying to keep writing the marriages because they weren't up to the challenge, or because writing married superheroes was actually not in their element (and it maybe wouldn't be a good thing to have the relationship written if it were done poorly anyways?), and/or it was 86'd just so a story could be told that wouldn't work with that in place. Above all else then I want to see more done with the cast offs, particularly Lois Lane and Mary Jane, and not just that they maintain a status as a cast member in their exes books either. These two are long standing characters with gigantic fanbases of their own who have done much for the medium itself in their now long runs as respective comic characters, and each deserves more than to just props in series they gave more to, as do their longtime fans and readers deserve more as well. I'm sure I won't see that unfold (though again with these two it almost seemed for a moment: See= Mary Jane/Spider-Island, Lois Lane/Flashpoint), but it's what I would want. It's a good discussion topic anyways as far as I'm concerned, thanks for bringing it up.