DC/Marvel comparisons

[DrMike2000]

BWPS:
That fight in Identity Crisis was one of the worse written ones I've ever had the pleasure to read and then rant about on the internet.
I mean, Slade shows how clever and skilled he is by handcuffing Black Canary and sticking a ziploc bag over her head mid-combat?!!!? Did he suddenly forget every single punch/nerve blow/whatever that can stun or knock out a non-invulnerable opponent? Come to think of it why didnt he do the same to hairy chested Hawkman or man-in-tights Green Arrow? You cant fly if you cant see, and cant fire a bow and arrow in handcuffs. Or would that look too [MOD EDIT]corny[/MOD EDIT]?

Anyway...
Thank you deeply for giving me the opportunity to rant about this scene once more

Herodad:
Both DC and Marvel are heavily based on fantasy and reality, and I think that magic can occur when the two universes are brought together. Not every time, but X-Men/Teen Titans by Clarement and Simonson was one, and JLA/Avengers by Busiek and Perez was the other that springs to mind, like I said before.

Go read JLA/Avengers. Busiek addresses the different power levels really well. He isnt showing favouritism to either, even acknowledging that Marvel's heroes have to work harder than DCs to protect their world.
But all the way through these little "facts" are dropped - Marvels Earth is slightly smaller due to the extra fictional countries and cities DC accomodates, Superman finds the Marvel sunlight has a "greasy" quality (like its drawn by a different artist). Cap and Supes are both sort of unnaturally on edge due to the bad cosmic vibes brought about by the universes colliding, and used as mouthpieces to criticise what each thinks are the worse features of each other's worlds.
It is really well done like that, while at the same time being a cool action story. Its full of comic magic, if you ask me.

With regards to character's weaknesses making them more interesting, I agree that's true, but I think its an argument that's sometimes overstated in the case of Superman and other DC characters. Superman's powers are very well defined, and he has multiple weaknesses, and really there are many ways that a writer can still challenge a being of that power level. Not only Kryptonite, magic and red-sun energy, but his parents, his wife, co-workers, the fragile secret identity that keeps them safe, his refusal to play dirty, the tug of his alien heritage vs his American upbringing. All of these can and have been used to tell good stories, in just the same way that Spidey's money troubles and insecurities do.

[Uncle Yuan]

If Batman is equally matched to Cap in fighting, then what the hell are Cap's abilities anyway if he isn't guaranteed victory over a normal human?

But Cap is a normal human.  He just took a serum to get where Bats got through hard work and determination.

[zuludelta]

In all honesty, I don't find much that separates DC's stable of super-people from Marvel's or vice-versa. At their core, the majority of their superheroes (and most of Image Comics and Wildstorm's as well) are hewn from the conservative and patriarchal archetypes that populate a lot of classic and modern folklore. Attempts at revising the role of the superhero in his/her fictional universe, for some reason or another, don't seem to succeed on a commercial level or are limited to a niche readership (such as Marvel's failed New Universe and Epic Comics experiments during the mid-1980s), or if commercially successful, are relegated to "What If... ?" or "Elseworlds" type alternative-reality stories (see Mark Waid's Kingdom Come, Moore's Watchmen, Grant Morrison's Animal Man run or the first 6 issues of Millar's The Ultimates). 

The differences between the two companies were more pronounced, I think, during the period between the 1960s and the mid-1970s, when Marvel, under the tutelage of editor-in-chief Stan Lee, made a consistent effort at distancing itself from DC, painting itself as the more "hip" and "with it" publisher in contrast to DC's more traditional stance. Lee's efforts resulted in characters that were significantly different from DC's mainstays at the time (for instance, while teen sidekicks like Robin, Speedy, and Kid Flash were a common occurrence in 1960's-era DC, Marvel generally eschewed them in favour of full-fledged teen superheros headlining their own books like Spider-Man and of course, the first generation of X-Men). To that extent, Marvel succeeded in breaking away from the patriarchal model (Marvel superheroes, at least in the case of guys like Spider-Man and the X-Men, weren't father-figure stand-ins but were meant to be the readers' contemporaries).

That difference began narrowing almost as soon as it was engendered, however, and now we're at the point where any "comic book civilian" probably wouldn't be able to tell you which company publishes what characters.   

[DrMike2000]

Yeah. You're dead right, this is like discussing the difference between McDonalds and Burger King vs all other foodstuffs out there. There's still some kind of minor differences for the connosieur to pore over but they're pretty much the same.

At the end of the day they're often being written by the same people, so its hardly surprising. I don't think theres anyone quite as influential as Stan Lee is currently working exclusively at one company for their entire career.

[zuludelta]

At the end of the day they're often being written by the same people, so its hardly surprising. I don't think theres anyone quite as influential as Stan Lee was currently working exclusively at one company for their entire career.

Great point. Back in the 1960s, you had creatively far-reaching guys like Carmine Infantino doing almost exclusive DC work, and being one of the major architects of the DC universe at the time, his personal stamp could clearly be seen on everything from character design to editorial decision-making. Same thing with Stan Lee (and to a lesser extent, Jack Kirby and John Romita Sr.) over at Marvel.

These days, there's a lot of cross-pollination in between the Big Two in terms of talent and editors working for the one publisher and then the other, such that they've blurred the lines of distinction when it comes to a lot of the Big Two's respective published material. 

[thalaw2]

Why do we always end these discussions with it depends on writing?....it seems like a crap out IMO. 

Fact..Cap and Bats are at the peak of human fitness.  Bats did it through intense training whereas Cap swallowed done a formula.  Taking that into account I think that 9 times out of ten Bats will whip Cap up and should no matter what the writers write. 

Fact..Deathstroke also downed some drugs and got endurance and speed and strength beyond normal humans.  Plus, he also had intense training in killing and such.  Therefore, he should beat Bats (and has on more than one occasion). 

[AncientSpirit]

Why do we always end these discussions with it depends on writing?....it seems like a crap out IMO. 

Fact..Cap and Bats are at the peak of human fitness.  Bats did it through intense training whereas Cap swallowed done a formula.  Taking that into account I think that 9 times out of ten Bats will whip Cap up and should no matter what the writers write. 

Fact..Deathstroke also downed some drugs and got endurance and speed and strength beyond normal humans.  Plus, he also had intense training in killing and such.  Therefore, he should beat Bats (and has on more than one occasion). 

Actually, its NOT fact about Cap, Bats or Deathstroke.   It's FICTION.   

Which is exactly why it ALWAYS comes down to who is writing the piece (as well as who is editing and approving it for publication).   Sorry.   

[thalaw2]

Well...it's a fact of fiction.....   

[Previsionary]

that's oxymoronic!

You make Cap seem like a marshmallow compared to Batman and that's just not true. Cap did also continuously train until his death, so he has a pretty good percentage of fighting Bat for quite awhile. He may not have a higher percentage of winning, but he could hold his ground and probably win much more than you let on, law. But who CAN beat batman? The dude has shark repellent. Clearly he could even beat Randy.

Only the anti-batman could beat batman! That's right...Prometheus.

[thalaw2]

Wouldn't Anti-Batman be Bruce Wayne?

[bearded]

Fact..that is my new thing.  made me laugh.

Fact..we have a combat simulation right here.  let's agree on some stats and start a match.  player vs player would be fun, but danger room ai vs ai would be good enough.

[steamteck]

Why do we always end these discussions with it depends on writing?....it seems like a crap out IMO. 

Fact..Cap and Bats are at the peak of human fitness.  Bats did it through intense training whereas Cap swallowed done a formula.  Taking that into account I think that 9 times out of ten Bats will whip Cap up and should no matter what the writers write. 

This age old  one again, My two cents.


Cap seems even a more a superhuman normal human than bats to me personally. he's certainly stronger. Both are pretty intensely trained and remember batman had to train himself to do  a lot more things than Cap did so Cap's training was more focused. I'd call them pretty close myself. Your personal feelings obviously give Batman the edge. I think Cap has the edge but Batman would cheat and win if needed.

[steamteck]

If Batman is equally matched to Cap in fighting, then what the hell are Cap's abilities anyway if he isn't guaranteed victory over a normal human?

But Cap is a normal human.  He just took a serum to get where Bats got through hard work and determination.

Yeah, right. Need to buy a bridge?

[bearded]

could cap beat the hulk?  what about superman?
cause, ya'know...batman beat both those goons.

[herodad1]

there's a big difference in the two.as far as fighting skills theyre equal but power wise cap has the advantage.batmans more like a natural athlete where caps the steroid version.under optimal conditions cap can press overhead 800 lbs.,bench around 1,200 lbs.,and reps( curls ) 500 lbs.theres no way batman can do that.bruce trained himself to the physical perfection of his own body.ive worked out for 25 years and know that everyone has their own " peaks ".if you remember in the marvel v.s. dc popularity contest batmans blows hardly phased cap where caps blows sent batman flying.also batman was starting to tire where cap wasnt.thats why batman whipped out the bat-a-rang because the fist-a-cuffs was getting him no-where.cap is at the peak that a human can be before he's considered superhuman.batman is more like daredevils power level.even in the avengers/jla crossover batman admitted that cap could eventually beat him.hulk and superman?sleeping gas, kryptonite,and batman fanboy writers beat them.i have my favorite heroes but compared to some others sometimes youve got the bite the bullet and accept the truth.

[Previsionary]

Wouldn't Anti-Batman be Bruce Wayne?

Uh, no. All the anti-batmen are villains. Bruce isn't a villain as far as I know. But anyway, Grant described Promy as an Anti-Batman and you can easily tell that from his origin and even his tactics in his first JLA story. That and I hear he was originally supposed to be "Wrath" who is also an anti-batman. But obviously, we just need a random villain like Bane to beat Batman. If Bane could do it, me thinks Cap could. ^^

[Zippo]

Are Bats and Cap really equal in fighting skills? Wiki says Cap is a master of multiple martial arts, but that just totally doesn't add up for me. I mean, he gets suped up from a scrawny "fine arts student", then I assume goes through basic training and is shipped off to battle, eventually being blown up and frozen at the end of the war, right? Fighting in the war would give him some combat experience, but as he'd be combating enemies with little hand-to-hand training, I don't think it would hone any useful martial art skills.
Anyway, he gets unfrozen and joins up with the Avengers. This seems like the most logical time for him to be attempting to master "multiple martial arts". So he's got more or less from then until his death to do that. I have no idea how long that is in Marvel time.

Batman on the other hand, has been going at this sort of thing since his first opportunity. He's more or less dedicated his life to it, and trained under multiple great masters in far off lands on inaccessible mountain peaks and the like. He's in a constant state of self-improvement.

Whether Wiki and the books say Cap is such a martial arts master or not, I just can't see how his skills could possibly come close to Batman's when he'd never so much as stepped foot in a dojo until his early to mid twenties.

Perhaps this is why I never likes Steve Rogers much... He comes off as too much of a Mary Sue (stu?) for my liking...
Then again, I'm by no means an expert on the guy, so I could be totally wrong.

[zuludelta]

Are Bats and Cap really equal in fighting skills? Wiki says Cap is a master of multiple martial arts, but that just totally doesn't add up for me. I mean, he gets suped up from a scrawny "fine arts student", then I assume goes through basic training and is shipped off to battle, eventually being blown up and frozen at the end of the war, right? Fighting in the war would give him some combat experience, but as he'd be combating enemies with little hand-to-hand training, I don't think it would hone any useful martial art skills...

... Batman on the other hand, has been going at this sort of thing since his first opportunity. He's more or less dedicated his life to it, and trained under multiple great masters in far off lands on inaccessible mountain peaks and the like. He's in a constant state of self-improvement.

... Whether Wiki and the books say Cap is such a martial arts master or not, I just can't see how his skills could possibly come close to Batman's when he'd never so much as stepped foot in a dojo until his early to mid twenties.

[Takes off detached observer hat and puts on comic book geek hat]

See, I'd take somebody with decent practical hand-to-hand training and real in-theater warfighting experience over a dojo rat (even one with multiple black belts) in a knock-down drag out fight any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Put them in a boxing ring or a mixed-martial arts cage fighting under a formalized set of rules and sure, Batman would probably wax Cap's behind with ease, but not in a lethal consequences match-up.

I've talked to and trained with some decent martial artists and most of them would say that there's nothing in contemporary formal martial arts training that compares to the mental commitment that a professional warrior/soldier undergoes when they take the oath to potentially take a life in defense of their country/political party/religion/whatever else it is they're fighting for. Batman might have Captain America beat in knowledge of formal hand-to-hand combat techniques and whatnot, but ultimately, Bruce Wayne's code of non-lethality closes off certain options that remain open to a professional soldier and warrior like Cap, options that, I think, would outweigh any advantages Batman might have in training (assuming that they have comparable physical conditioning and that they're fighting in a winner-takes-all type match, of course).      

In terms of practical fighting skills, an encyclopedic knowledge of technique isn't really that much of an asset. In most modern warfighting organizations, the focus in hand-to-hand combat training has always been in the minimization of the number of applied techniques while increasing the potential for lethality.

EDIT:
Basically, what I'm saying is that it isn't so much formal fighting knowledge that will determine the outcome of a no-holds barred physical confrontation between Batman and Captain America (or any two real people with comparable physical conditioning and resistances, for that matter), but what limitations they impose upon themselves on what they are willing to do to win. Broadly speaking, the most effective threat-neutralization techniques in any martial arts system (outside the most practical option of running away and avoiding physical conflict altogether, of course) are the ones that contain the most potential for permanent debilitation and lethality (even in "soft" and "non-aggressive" martial arts like aikido and tai chi chuan). Bruce Wayne, because of his vow to never willingly take a life, will probably consciously avoid such techniques. Steve Rogers, on the other hand, being a soldier first and foremost would probably be more likely to use them, if not in a standard fight situation, at the very least in extremis.

[thalaw2]

Under most circumstances Cap won't be seeking to kill Bats.

For example, if they happen to chillin at the After Hours Cafe and Cap. accidentally spills a little coffee on Bats's cape.  Bats says let's step outside.  Cap accepts...and they dance.  It's unlikely that Cap will try to kill Bats.  However, Bats will fight to the death in order not to lose the fight...once Cap recongnizes this he will likely give up becuase he doesn't want to kill Bats over a cup of coffee...Bats wins.

However, if some illusionist gets Cap to believe that Bats is an evil scientist bent on destroying the country, then Cap would likely use lethal force to stop him...But if that same illusionist tricks Bats into believe that Cap is an evil android out to destroy Gotham then Bats will also use lethal force.

[zuludelta]

For example, if they happen to chillin at the After Hours Cafe and Cap. accidentally spills a little coffee on Bats's cape.  Bats says let's step outside.  Cap accepts...and they dance.  It's unlikely that Cap will try to kill Bats.  However, Bats will fight to the death in order not to lose the fight...once Cap recongnizes this he will likely give up becuase he doesn't want to kill Bats over a cup of coffee...Bats wins.

ha ha ha. That's a good set-up for a Starbucks-sponsored crossover.

Yeah, the way I see it is that Cap basically is capable of two settings in a fight: (a) Beat the Other Guy Up Pretty Badly Mode, and (b) Kill The Other Guy Dead Mode. Batman, on the other hand, would have a whole range of settings between the two. In a contest where Cap is given the ethical leeway to use lethal force against Batman (and 616 Cap has shown that he is quite capable and willing to dispense lethal force againt non-powered humans in the appropriate situations), he'd probably win. Any other situation that disallows lethal force, and Bats could probably take him out handily. 

[thanoson]

I think we have the Cap vs Bats fight wrong. Cap is not the right person. Black Panther is the right one. He is able to counter a foe, is filthy rich and is super smart just like Bruce. He can play dirty too and doesn't have a problem with killing. Your thoughts?

[zuludelta]

I think we have the Cap vs Bats fight wrong. Cap is not the right person. Black Panther is the right one. He is able to counter a foe, is filthy rich and is super smart just like Bruce. He can play dirty too and doesn't have a problem with killing. Your thoughts?

The problem, I think, regardless of whom you match up against whom, is that winning is incumbent on variable fight context. To have any fruitful discussion about hypothetical fights, you'd probably want to lay down some strict ground rules first.     

[daglob]

I think we have the Cap vs Bats fight wrong. Cap is not the right person. Black Panther is the right one. He is able to counter a foe, is filthy rich and is super smart just like Bruce. He can play dirty too and doesn't have a problem with killing. Your thoughts?

The problem, I think, regardless of whom you match up against whom, is that winning is incumbent on variable fight context. To have any fruitful discussion about hypothetical fights, you'd probably want to lay down some strict ground rules first.     

Rules? We don't need no stinkin' rules...

[herodad1]

i agree with thanoson, cap shouldnt be parred with bats.bats is closer to black panther,daredevil,the shroud and maybe ironfist.

[Valandar]

Cap also shouldn't be forced to fight Uncle Sam. The two would likely feel some sort of bizarre connection and be almost unable to fight each other.

Either that, or the fact that Uncle Sam has strength only one step down from Superman, plus all the fighting spirit of every patriotic American, combined, would make it a short fight.

A much closer potential combatant would be Guardian - even uses a shield, as well. But in this case, Cap would totally flatten poor Joe Harper.

Really, there is no one appropriate for Cap to face thematically speaking without being squished, or clobbering them.

[thanoson]

Hmm... maybe Cap vs Deathstroke?

[Blitzgott]

I believe Deathstroke can defeat Captain America. He is superior physically and mentally, more resourceful, has about the same skill as Captain America in hand-to-hand combat, a healing factor, will try to kill Captain America and wields lethal weapons, both melee and ranged.

[Vertex]

Cap also shouldn't be forced to fight Uncle Sam. The two would likely feel some sort of bizarre connection and be almost unable to fight each other.

Either that, or the fact that Uncle Sam has strength only one step down from Superman, plus all the fighting spirit of every patriotic American, combined, would make it a short fight.

A much closer potential combatant would be Guardian - even uses a shield, as well. But in this case, Cap would totally flatten poor Joe Harper.

Really, there is no one appropriate for Cap to face thematically speaking without being squished, or clobbering them.

sorry disagree on Sam vs Cap    especially if Sam had to fight Cap in the marvel universe... patriotism there is much more like the real world.. I think Sam would find himself far more ... human there

[Valandar]

I disagree.

A majority of people in the United States have at least a little patriotism. Several people have a LOT of patriotism. And after the huge election turnout, a lot more have rekindled that spark.

Even if we say that there are only a hundred "completely patriotic" people in the Marvel US, and the remaining 300,000,000 or so are only 0.01% Patriotic... that adds up to 3000+100 = 31,000 times normal human strength, or able to lift a little over 2300 tons (assuming an average human strength able to lift 150 lbs). Squish goes Cap.

Of course, shortly after 911, that likely would have been closer to the strength of about 150,000,000 people, pushing him into the 1,1250,000 ton range, or a little STRONGER than the latest quantifiable editorial mandate on Superman that we have (the old DC Heroes RPG Post-Crisis, many of his stats were editorial mandate), or even or ever so slightly less than the current Superman (assuming that he really HAS gotten slightly stronger as has been claimed.)

[thanoson]

During that Batman/Superman arc with Supergirl, didn't he claim she was stronger than him?