Freedom Reborn

So, we still need to start putting together whatever rules we as a community have.
I hope that we've all calmed down enough to discuss and debate it reasonably.
If you haven't calmed down enough, then don't post yet. I'm thinking we should take a few weeks to debate and think about it anyway, so everyone should get a chance to have an input, unless you plan to be mad forever..
If you think it's Too Soon, then don't post. Clearly I want to start now, if you don't, then don't. But I'm going to. And I hope others will also have an interest in expressing their views.
I am not in charge. I am not a moderator, my opinion holds no special weight. Everyone is welcome to join in as far as I am concerned, provided that they are civil to others.

What I was thinking is that we already have some rules I think that we mostly know about, and mostly agree with.
It may help to break the rules down into categories pertaining to (in no special order);General, Mods, Meshes/skopes/Hexxing/Animation, Skins, FX, Sounds,and Scripting.

They might go something like this;

GENERAL

1. We are a Family Friendly community. No explicit sex or horrific violence. No swearing. No Nudity.
2. We respect our fellow community members, and try not to insult, flame, troll or make their life in the community unpleasant.
3. We respect and abide by the wishes of our creative contributors. If they say "please don't do X", we don't do X.
4. On this website, we are guests, and explicitly and implicitly agree to and abide by the rules of our hosts.
5. Public distribution or alteration of some stuff is forbidden, but if it's just for your own private use and will not be publicly distributed, some things are your own business.
6. We believe in giving credit where it is due. Do not claim other peoples' work as your own, do not strip out readmes or credit.txt files.


MODS
1. Please check for permission in the appropriate threads, or by email or PM, if you are using someone else's work in your Mod.
2. The Creator(s) of the Mod get final say as to how or where it is distributed, same as other content creators.


MESHES/SKOPES/HEXXES/ANIMATIONS
1. The creator(s) of a mesh get final say as to how or where it is distributed, and whether it can be 'skoped or hexxed. We have permission threads for all these, (links to be added).
2. The creators of 'skopes and hexxes have similar rights to their creations, provided that they have all the necessary permissions for any parts used in their work.
3.The creator(s) of any Keyframes, or Animations get final say as to how or where it is distributed.



SKINS
1.The creator(s) of a skin get final say as to how or where it is distributed.
2. No Kittbashing of skins, unless specific permission is granted by the person who made the original is obtained. Base skins are assumed to be for public use unless otherwise stated.


FX
1.The creator(s) of an FX get final say as to how or where it is distributed.
2. Do not edit, kittbash or otherwise alter an FX without the permission of the original creator.


SOUNDS
1.The creator(s) of a Voicepack, Song or other Sound get final say as to how or where it is distributed.



SCRIPTING
1.The creator(s) of a Script, or piece of Code get final say as to how or where it is distributed.


Now, I think those are fairly uncontentious, but if anyone wants to debate any of them, please post here.
Obviously these are not necessarily Final, nor are they the Only rules. These are just my immediate thinking on what we already know and have.
I very much would like others to add to, amend, contest or discuss these, and I hope over the coming weeks that we can together thrash out something together.

Good idea Tommy, I think everything looks good so far. 

I can think of nothing really that needs to be added, except for one note.

Irrational skins, meshes, keyframes, scripts, and FX's can be safely modified or used as the based for other such things, as permission to do so comes with the games.

Not everyone reads readme and such, you know.

Well, we do need to add a rule addressing the definition and disposition of content torrents, or agree that there are no boundaries other than individual artist's wishes.

I don't believe that quite covers it.  We obviously have need of more specifics, since no one can agree on what defines a content torrent, if such a rule was ever agreed upon by anything resembling a majority of the community (creator or otherwise), nor if such an agreement is in any way binding.  I do not wish to discuss my mod, I believe that has been done quite enough, but I do wish to protect the rights of others in the community against one individual or small group interpreting nebulous "rules" to enforce an agenda, whatever it may be (either beneficial or harmful to my own projects).  We have an pressing need to hash out the details here.  If we don't all agree that a rule even exists, then there are some fairly fundamental problems that need to be addressed.

I suppose that I may as well suggest what I am in favor of, which is an idea that I know many others are in favor of as well.  That is that we define a content torrent as art assets of whatever variety being distributed without permission, and without any type of frame of work having been done on the part of the creator.  Thus, releasing a big bundle of meshes and skins of various artists is forbidden, but Tommy's Avengers special is within the rule. 

Quote from: ips on February 05, 2009, 07:50:15 PM

Quote from: BentonGrey on February 05, 2009, 07:31:56 PM
I don't believe that quite covers it.  We obviously have need of more specifics, since no one can agree on what defines a content torrent, if such a rule was ever agreed upon by anything resembling a majority of the community (creator or otherwise), nor if such an agreement is in any way binding.  I do not wish to discuss my mod, I believe that has been done quite enough. [snip]

we don't need to agree on the definition of content torrent. it's not part of the rules. instead, it #5 clearly covers it. rule #5 says no to (re)distribution without explicit permission. period. it doesn't make exemptions or allowances depending on anyone specific's need or agenda.

torrents happen to be a form of distribution that is their nature. so are websites. so is the hub. if you host someone else's work on your site without their express permission you are in violation of #5. if you host and redistribute someone else's work on vuze or any kind of peer2peer network without their express permission to redistribute their work you are in violation of #5.

if you would like to argue what the nature of your "mod" is please discuss it in another thread. it can then be determined in that discussion whether or not it violates any rules that end up being 'agreed on' here.

Quote from: BentonGrey on February 05, 2009, 07:31:56 PM
I do wish to protect the rights of others in the community against one individual or small group interpreting nebulous "rules" to enforce an agenda, whatever it may be.

good then we agree on that much. :)

You've been hinting that Tommy needs to add in the "rule" concerning content torrents, and I was pointing out that no such rule exists in any quantifiable form.  Yes, #5 covers the need for permission, but that doesn't cover everything, as you have spent the last month arguing that permission is not necessarily the only factor in the acceptability of a mod.  Thus, with permission, everything is...well, permissible.

Quote from: ips on February 05, 2009, 08:05:46 PM
i haven't been hinting anything benton. he made a statement about including only the rules everyone agrees with. if there are any he can think of that he may not agree with they should be included also. i haven't added anything myself because i think so far everything is very clear.

and ... i'm quite happy with #5 just the way it is.

there is no rule against content torrents and never has been. the rule is against re-distribution in general without explicit permission (to redistribute) by the authors. this is regardless of the method chosen to redistribute. it means that i can torrent my own stuff if i want to and it means i have to have permission to redistribute (just like if i was trying to host someone's stuff on my website) someone else's work via torrent.

I'm with IPS here. We don't need a specific torrent qualifier if the only criteria for redistribution is the agreement of the original creator. Torrents, mods, whatever are golden if the creator gives their say-so.

Quote from: ips on February 05, 2009, 07:14:08 PM

Quote from: tommyboy on February 05, 2009, 04:28:55 PM

GENERAL
1. We are a Family Friendly community. No explicit sex or horrific violence. No swearing. No Nudity.
2. We respect our fellow community members, and try not to insult, flame, troll or make their life in the community unpleasant.
3. We respect and abide by the wishes of our creative contributors. If they say "please don't do X", we don't do X.
4. On this website, we are guests, and explicitly and implicitly agree to and abide by the rules of our hosts.
5. Public distribution or alteration of some stuff is forbidden, but if it's just for your own private use and will not be publicly distributed, some things are your own business.
6. We believe in giving credit where it is due. Do not claim other peoples' work as your own, do not strip out readmes or credit.txt files.

1, 2 , 4 are not community rules. they are forum rules. there is a difference and any discussion had here is not binding to the forum moderator team or titans and not open to debate. although i do think #2 should be a forum rule when it currently is not. if it was, a lot of behaviour would be punishable around here. this is something for everyone to think about

Again, with IPS. FR is outside the "jurisdiction" of the community proper. 1 and 4 are included in the current FR rules anyway, if I recall correctly.

Yeah, "guidelines" is a better term. 

I would also agree that "distribution" should mean any type of outlet.

Sheesh!  Next thing you know we will need a "definitions" section for our guidelines.

Are we the Federal Government now?  j/k

:)

Quote from: ips on February 05, 2009, 09:14:19 PM
3. When contacting a creator and requesting permission, clearly state what you are asking permission to do. It is your responsibility to clearly understand how you are using someone else's work and be able to communicate how you will use it when asking for permission so that the creator can fairly give their permission. Failure to do this (understandably) implies permission is not given and rescinded.

This was probably one of the biggest issues of contention, and I hate to open a can of worms again, but I think the last sentence is a little off. I agree it is "your" responsibility to communicate your intentions clearly. However, I don't think that being unclear immediately implies that permission is stripped once the creation is released. That wording seems to imply that being unclear automatically makes the product invalid, even if the creator would've been comfortable with the idea had it been explained clearly. Rather than that, I think it should be that any creator has the right to retroactively rescind permission for use of their work should they feel uncomfortable with the final product.

Other than that I think these guidelines are clear and succinct.

Well, some interesting stuff so far.

I split the rules/guidelines/whatever up into sections because different people make different things. And the rules are not the same for skins as they are for meshes, and Mods are different from keyframes. So I believe that we need a separate section for each. That to me is less confusing than trying to describe everything in one long convoluted sentence with a half dozen sub-clauses. My way, if someone wants to find the rules pertaining to skins, they look in the skins section, rather than try to work out which parts of some general blanket statement might apply to skins.
Frankly, less is not more in these matters. Less is less. General blanket statements and assuming "everyone knows that" have only gotten us some very bitter arguments to date. If that is what you want, by all means be brief, truncate, hint rather than state. We should know that road only too well.

As for the rules that may appear to be needless because they are rules at FR, let's remember that the community is not FR, (though it has largely been the community's primary 'home' for the last few years), nor is FR the community. Which is why I felt that we needed to cover some of the same rules as FR does, but as the community. Just because I post on MeshMatters, or 4ColorExplosion, or elsewhere, doesn't mean I'm not part of our community there. So I think that as a community we need to decide on rules like 1, 2 and 4, regardless of their presence or absence here at FR.
There are ways I can insult someone here on the FR board that break none of it's rules. Perhaps there should be community rules to encourage me to keep my dislike offline.
Maybe it is redundant to strive for politeness and respect when we've done so well with backbiting, infighting and staying just under the rules which stop out and out flaming.


On content;
For me, the Permissions Threads are the backbone of the rules about content, and what can be done with it, or not done with it.
If those threads are worded clearly, each creator may make it very clear what their policies are. And that has worked for nifSkope. It means that I'm not constantly bombarded by PM's or emails requesting permission to skope or hexx any given mesh, because I've made it clear. So I see no reason that everyone be constantly PMing/emailing everyone else to check permissions if all the permissions are already clearly given. If something arises not covered by the rules or permissions threads, checking makes sense. Otherwise it's a waste of time and effort to PM me to ask if you can skope my meshes or use them in a Mod if I've already said "yes, anyone can" in the Permission Threads.
If the permissions threads are linked to in the rules/guidelines, and are clearly stated, there is little scope for ambiguity or misinterpretation.

On rules as opposed to guidelines.
If you say to someone this is a rule, you clearly expect them to abide by it. If you say it's a guideline, then you are saying it's entirely optional, in their discretion, a matter of choice, negotiable. Of course, either way we have little way of enforcing anything, but I favour making it clear that this is what we expect of our community members, not what we suggest. These are our Rules. Not our Suggestions, or Hoped Fors or If You Feel Like Its, or Guidelines. But, if enough people want guidelines as opposed to rules, then I suppose I'll take that as a guideline..

Plus, let's try to refrain from telling each other what is, or is not, a proper subject for discussion here. If someone wants to discuss additional rules about Mods, here is exactly the right thread to do so, no other thread need be started for now.
Maybe we will need a different thread for mods, meshes, skins to debate and discuss the rules of each, but for now, we can do it here.

I'd also disagree with a Community rule on NO swearing, nudity or explicit sex, if we're talking about the content of mods.

Al Kemyst's BB mod was a great piece of work, sharp and a bit edgy but not beyond the bounds of good taste. The superhero genre has always had a sexy fetishistic side to it, he just decided to make a conscious nod to that rather than pretend it was all about violence.

And is it really that horrific when King Zero uses the word "bloody"? That's swearing, and also somehow crucial to his character and speech patterns.
The Strangers also contained some comical nudity, in the form of a male streaker who appears in a couple of episodes, disrupting a football match and then later on in the human assault on their base. The Teen Titans Mod has a brief bit of comical nudity in a cutscene with StarFire getting out of the bath didn't it?

Strangers also contains a graphics scene of sexual reproduction between energy entities, but I'm just being facetious mentioning that.

I have no problem with rules about no excessive swearing on the boards, or keeping the contents of these discussions family friendly. But if someone wants to make a more adult mod and label it so, I'd hate to see this community ignore it - its not like there's anywhere else to go to publish FF mods these days.

Quote from: DrMike2000 on February 06, 2009, 01:06:54 AM
I'd also disagree with a Community rule on NO swearing, nudity or explicit sex, if we're talking about the content of mods.

Al Kemyst's BB mod was a great piece of work, sharp and a bit edgy but not beyond the bounds of good taste. The superhero genre has always had a sexy fetishistic side to it, he just decided to make a conscious nod to that rather than pretend it was all about violence.

And is it really that horrific when King Zero uses the word "bloody"? That's swearing, and also somehow crucial to his character and speech patterns.
The Strangers also contained some comical nudity, in the form of a male streaker who appears in a couple of episodes, disrupting a football match and then later on in the human assault on their base. The Teen Titans Mod has a brief bit of comical nudity in a cutscene with StarFire getting out of the bath didn't it?

Strangers also contains a graphics scene of sexual reproduction between energy entities, but I'm just being facetious mentioning that.

I have no problem with rules about no excessive swearing on the boards, or keeping the contents of these discussions family friendly. But if someone wants to make a more adult mod and label it so, I'd hate to see this community ignore it - its not like there's anywhere else to go to publish FF mods these days.

Agreed.
A labeling system for Mod content works for me.
I vote for it.

Quote from: ips on February 05, 2009, 11:07:38 PM
the reason i worded it that way, was because the permission is initially given for what the creator understands as the purpose of the permission. if (accidentally or intentionally) the explanation is inaccurate for permission being requested, i think it should be automatically rescinded and then the requester should be obligated to proactively remedy the situation by re-requesting permission properly. i'm going to justify my position on this because otherwise, you get into a situation where the permission remains as implied because the creator may not have been keeping current with the project. unless the original creator is actively following the community and intervenes, their work will be used then. for example, they may not be involved in the community any longer and may not have wanted their permission implied or they may just be only a casual visitor and have given their permission for something they thought they understood and while they are away, it turns out the project was not what they may have permitted. but because they are not active, their work gets used in their absence until they contest it - if they ever become aware of it.

permission should never be implied. we have always assumed permission is not given unless specifically stated it is given (maybe that should be another rule to be discussed?). my thought process is about trying to teach the person the responsibility intrinsic to using others' work and being clear or upfront (not making any statements - simply covering all possibilities) in your intentions. obviously, this can make or break a permission being granted.

i thought about the idea of retroactively rescinding permissions... i don't know where i stand on it. in principle it's not cool but practically speaking the threat of it guards against misuse or being mislead etc. so i can see it as useful. what are other people's thoughts on it?

For the purposes of my post I am going to use the term creator to mean anyone who first creates the content, and designer to mean anyone who uses a creator's content in another form, i.e. a mod, mesh, etc. A player is one not involved with the creation but cn download the files in question.

The biggest problem I see with that is there is no way to judge whether or not the creator was confused when the designer outlined their project. Say a designer asks Creator A and Creator B if they can use their meshes in a mod and they say yes, then it is revealed that the mod in question has a lot of sexually explicit dialogue. A doesn't like that and feels the designer was unclear in their intent, while B thinks they were clear enough and has no problem with it. Creator A can call foul, but with the qualifier that all permission is then rescinded, permission for B's work is assumed to be gone too. Let's say in the intervening time, B has left the community and the designer cannot get ahold of them. That complicates the issue even further, and the designer may be unable to release their mod.

I think there's something of an impasse here. I say it is bad if a designer had permission from a creator and then cannot regain it. You say it is bad if a creator would rescind their permission but cannot. I believe the former is worse, because then it ultimately puts the entire project at the whim of a creator. Say a creator gives a designer permission to use their creation, but between that time and the project's release they get into an argument. Once the project is released, the creator can cry fowl and force the designer to jump through the tedious hoops of re-acquiring permission from every creator involved. Should the latter occur, and a creator would find something objectable but wouldn't be keeping up, then frankly, they won't have the opportunity to be offended, so why should it matter as much? I know that sounds terrible, but there is no way a compromise can be attained while both of these possibilities are an option. Retroactively rescinding permission can be unpleasant, but it's a way around the mess I've described above. Rather than attempt to re-seek and re-acquire all that permission again, they only need to remove and/or replace the content of a single creator.

Quote from: tommyboy on February 06, 2009, 01:14:08 AM

Quote from: DrMike2000 on February 06, 2009, 01:06:54 AM
I'd also disagree with a Community rule on NO swearing, nudity or explicit sex, if we're talking about the content of mods.

Al Kemyst's BB mod was a great piece of work, sharp and a bit edgy but not beyond the bounds of good taste. The superhero genre has always had a sexy fetishistic side to it, he just decided to make a conscious nod to that rather than pretend it was all about violence.

And is it really that horrific when King Zero uses the word "bloody"? That's swearing, and also somehow crucial to his character and speech patterns.
The Strangers also contained some comical nudity, in the form of a male streaker who appears in a couple of episodes, disrupting a football match and then later on in the human assault on their base. The Teen Titans Mod has a brief bit of comical nudity in a cutscene with StarFire getting out of the bath didn't it?

Strangers also contains a graphics scene of sexual reproduction between energy entities, but I'm just being facetious mentioning that.

I have no problem with rules about no excessive swearing on the boards, or keeping the contents of these discussions family friendly. But if someone wants to make a more adult mod and label it so, I'd hate to see this community ignore it - its not like there's anywhere else to go to publish FF mods these days.

Agreed.
A labeling system for Mod content works for me.
I vote for it.

Agreed. I vote for the ESRB system for simplicity.

Rules is incorrect, guidelines not strict enough. I'd like to suggest the title Expectations.
If you want to be part of our community, you are expected to follow these guidelines.

I'm with Tommy on the organization of the list. Divided it up makes it easier to read. Easier to read is always a good idea. Remember we have people in this community who don't have English as a first language and younger members. Being clear here is infinitely important.


I'd also like to point that as far as I can tell we haven't listed any rule that would have forbid Benton from releasing his mod. #5 from Tommy's original list wouldn't have effected his work as he had permission, although he may have had to recheck with people to be clear about what he was doing.


Also I think we need clarification on permissions.
Say I'm making a mod, am I expected to directly check with everyone whose content I'm using to make the mod? Do I have to pm Ink, C6, Renegade, AA, etc etc etc before I even get started? Personally I think that's ridiculous. Permission threads should be the primary check. If what you want to do clears that permission you're good, if it doesn't you contact. If you can't contact and/or they're not on the permission list you check readme's. If the readme doesn't clear you in a clear manner then it's a no good.
If the permission thread isn't the primary check they basically serve no purpose.

Entries in a permission list should be as clear as possible. Keep in mind that permission lists can use "please contact for permissions" for a creators rule, and they can be easily updated. Once again I'd like to say that I'm willing to maintain any and all permission lists as I have with the nifskope list. Also a creator can always veto their work being used.


Also how would the newly codified rules on distribution affect email and short term linking usually used in the requests section?

I totally agree that you can't go beyond "guidelines" or "expectations" on this. Honestly we can all agree to whatever we like but if someone violates a guideline there's really nothing anybody can do about it. This is a "gentleman's agreement" of sorts. We all agree on our honor to follow what we agree to, and anybody joining our little club agrees simply by joining. We all have to understand that if someone does break these guideline the only real action the community can take is to kick the person out of our community.... but that certainly can't stop someone from still releasing things so it's all a matter of honor.

Regarding the veto clause:

Again I think the permission lists should be the primary check. If a creator fails to make their wishes clear in the permission list then that's their fault. However they would be protected by the veto clause. If it comes to their intention that something is being made with their work that they disagree with for whatever reason they can simply contact to have it revoked.

However, if something has been released for a significant period of time (a few months? a year?) the veto clause should be revoked.



The reason I'm pushing the permissions list as the primary check is that it's easier for everyone involved. This way C6 does need to get a pm for every mod that uses his work when he's already stated his intention in that matter. Tommy doesn't get dozens of pms regarding skoping his work. On the other side, if I'm making a mod or a skope I don't need to be sitting around waiting for responses for stuff that is clearly laid out in the permission list.

All we need to do is make sure the permission list clearly states the creator desires. If they don't want their skins etc used in a R-rated mod then they state that in the list, etc. If we're clear on the list there shouldn't be a problem.

I'm sorry, I know I said that I didn't want to talk about my mod, and I still don't....but I'm just well and truly confused. 

Quote from: Podmark on February 06, 2009, 05:10:35 AM
I'd also like to point that as far as I can tell we haven't listed any rule that would have forbid Benton from releasing his mod. #5 from Tommy's original list wouldn't have effected his work as he had permission, although he may have had to recheck with people to be clear about what he was doing.

That's right Podmark.  Interestingly enough, I did check with everyone who didn't seem to understand, and retained (I use the word retain intentionally) their permission.  I only had one person ask me not to use his stuff, and I agreed.  As I stated many times, I had permission for everything I was releasing, and that state of affairs continued, even after the two or three skinners who didn't realize what I was doing had figured it out.  However, for some strange reason, that didn't seem to matter.  And I quote:

Quotehow does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

So....if that was all that mattered to him, why did he waste a month of the community's time?  Demand that I take out the content that I had permission to release, or take the mod down altogether?

I do not agree that permission should be automatically revoked if there is a misunderstanding.  If the artists doesn't want his or her work used in a specific way, they have every right to ask that it be removed, and the whole weight of the community is behind any such request.  We should all endeavor to make our intentions clear, but Gremlin makes a good point, just because a misunderstanding occurs, that doesn't mean that it will have the same effects in all quarters.

The adult content thing....well, I'm very happy with the way the boards work, but I agree that it shouldn't really effect a mod (other than the decision of an artist whether they want their work used in whatever "adult" way).  A ratings system would be fine by me, but, as I don't have kids, I'm not terribly worried about it.  In my experience, most mods that have that kind of thing are fairly upfront about it.  The one Dr. Mike mentioned definitely was frank about it.

since I play these mods with my 5 year old son.. yes a ratings system would be ESSENTIAL to me if we're gonna include adult content.

Or perhaps more to point a warning or advisory..... telling me THIS mod..  is a no no.

Yeah I'm in agreement that profanity and nudity has nothing to do with what we're doing here.

That said I think a content rating should be established, but really I'd only use for 'mature' content levels. If you use profanity, nudity, excessive violence, sex, and anything I'm missing then you flag it as mature.

yeah I really don't wanna see Podmark nude.. I really don't.

Quote from: Vertex on February 06, 2009, 06:06:20 AM
yeah I really don't wanna see Podmark nude.. I really don't.

Dude you're missing out then  :cool:

#125:  the ultimate evil is king you will all bow and respect him and provide him with any mesh he desires and eliza dushku on a harley :D

Quote from: ips on February 06, 2009, 05:56:12 AM

Quote from: BentonGrey on February 06, 2009, 05:51:25 AM
I'm sorry, I know I said that I didn't want to talk about my mod, and I still don't....but I'm just well and truly confused. 

Quote from: Podmark on February 06, 2009, 05:10:35 AM
I'd also like to point that as far as I can tell we haven't listed any rule that would have forbid Benton from releasing his mod. #5 from Tommy's original list wouldn't have effected his work as he had permission, although he may have had to recheck with people to be clear about what he was doing.

That's right Podmark.  Interestingly enough, I did check with everyone who didn't seem to understand, and retained (I use the word retain intentionally) their permission.  I only had one person ask me not to use his stuff, and I agreed.  As I stated many times, I had permission for everything I was releasing, and that state of affairs continued, even after the two or three skinners who didn't realize what I was doing had figured it out.  However, for some strange reason, that didn't seem to matter.  And I quote:

Quotehow does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

So....if that was all that mattered to him, why did he waste a month of the community's time? 

don't worry benton, we know you want to keep bringing up your mod. we're just covering forum rules here for now. we haven't even gotten close to grey zone stuff that will address your "mod" and any effect it may have on the community.


Anyhow, staying on topic...

Again, Benton is on topic.
The whole point is to clarify matters like his Mod, and anything else we as a community might argue over.
The reason we haven't listed any rule that would have forbidden Benton's Mod is that there never was one. Anyone in any doubt on that check the Poll out which I made about his Mod:
http://freedomreborn.net/forums/index.php?topic=49300.0
Please note that, to date, not one person has voted that the Mod broke any rule.

Quote from: ips on February 06, 2009, 05:56:12 AM
no one wants to read a huge list of rules or guidelines. and it shouldn't be necessary. most of those rules say the same thing about different disciplines in the community. it can be shortened and will be more effective AND the primary resource can still be permissions threads. that's no problem, but, the longer the list of these rules, the more likely it will be ignored or accidentally misunderstood. keep it short and simple for everyone including non english speakers. that's just how people are.

No one wants to read a list of rules of any length. Unfortunately we now have to.
Since we have yet to hear from many people who make FX or Script, I leave them each a section where they can specify their own rules and preferences, and I do not presume to speak for, or dictate to, them.
As Benton rightly reminds us, the impetus for doing this is your attempt to "interpret" the non-specific rules we've had up until now. We had a vague general agreement about one thing which you interpreted as pertaining to something different, because we lacked specific rules spelling it out. We need specific rules for each section to prevent your "mistake" recurring. I would have thought it pretty obvious, but am happy to explain my point of view.
But, if no separate rules are mooted for all the sections, I suppose we can have a blanket rule covering more than one type of content, though I honestly don't feel what I laid out, (one or two lines per subject) to be that long.

Quote from: ips on February 06, 2009, 05:56:12 AM
also, creating a rule for things like profanity and nudity? way outside our rights to dictate as a community. i'm not on board. what kind of family friendly environment are we talking about here? the average age of the community members here is 30 or something like that. 6 years ago that was reasonable but not anymore. we probably have less than a handful of under 20s but they *are* over 16.

We probably need a ratings system for Mods, and maybe for some individual skins and meshes. There are kids out there, and there are people who play the game with their kids, or give the game to their kids. We have a duty to label clearly.
That's the sort of rule I'm OK with on this subject, one that states we must label clearly.

Quote from: ips on February 06, 2009, 05:56:12 AM
also, trying to make rules against any sort of discord or disagreement amounts to censorship. as tommy points out people can be hurt by more than just outright insults and flaming but that would open a door for popularity contests resulting in bans and more people leaving. if the drama that's gone on this month doesn't lead to an empty forum that sort of strongarm leveraging will remove anyone left.

Actually, I have nothing against discord or disagreement, they can be healthy. I simply think that if a person is hurtful to or destructive of a community then perhaps its better if they do leave. One person can make a place unpleasant for many others. If they do so, the others should have some recourse to asking them to stop, or go. I don't want witch-hunts, or a mob mentality, but I do not see why a vocal minority should be able to make life unpleasant for others without the community being able to deal with that.

Quote from: ips on February 06, 2009, 05:56:12 AM
anyhow, a rating system would be great for mods if modders would like to take part. i don't think a rating system should be part of our community "rules" (or expectations) discussion but it is something modders may want to consider.

I think it should be a rule that stuff is labeled clearly if its of an adult nature.

Unless there's some system of consequences deterring an individual from doing something unsuitable, everything we come up with here is going to be entirely voluntary. And what's more, it'll just be voluntary among those who've actually read the agreement to begin with.

I'm not a contrarian by nature, but I have to say that I don't see any of this going anywhere. And really, I don't see why it should be necessary now after all the years we've been here. Bear in mind, I missed the big fuss that was made a few months ago (or whenever it was), so I'm not as personally invested as some of you may be. So believe me when I say I really just don't see this amounting to much more than another pretext to heated arguments.

If the community as a whole wants to formalize a set of guidelines for creating, distributing and redistributing content, perhaps a panel can be appointed. They could confer with one another privately and hammer out a broadly defined set of guidelines.

Again, I'm leaning toward this all being unnecessary, but if it's insisted upon, it should be done fairly and dispassionately by a group of community members we all respect and trust. This could never work any other way, and certainly not the way it's being done now.

Ha, I believe you've proved that this is quite necessary IPS.  However, from the beginning I have been suggesting that the matter be handled by some authority, be it established (mods and titans) or elected.  SHJ, because of the lack of written rules we had a very nasty debate in which one person tried to dictate right and wrong to the community.  I'm afraid that this is very much necessary.

IPS, I'd be careful about throwing around accusations of hidden agendas and pretexts.  You still haven't given a halfway decent reason as to why you continued to attack a project after it had the exact kind of permission that you keep pointing to here. 

I don't agree with what Tommy said about someone who may be damaging the community.  As much as I may dislike an individual, I think we can ill afford to lose anyone at this point in our community's life.  Instead, I think we need to address the issues that this person used to create strife, and get life back to normal around here.

Forgive us for bringing the discussion back to my project, but your statements here simply haven't made sense.  I would like to understand why you are saying something different now than you said last week, but what I'm really interested in is making sure something like that doesn't happen again.

If this wasn't so maddening, it would be funny.

I did not talk about attacking a person, I specifically said project.  As for your claim...it is enough that I did not say that, whatever the truth may be.  Your explanations simply don't make sense, but you are right, that really isn't the matter at hand here.  I just couldn't help asking for clarification of something so baffling.  This is too important to waste time arguing semantics with you.  I would support an elected group solving this problem. 

I would nominate Podmark for the skinner slot, Vertex for that of mesher, and Premon for mod maker (but I don't think he'd care to do it).

It is important. So IPS, Benton, no offense, but maybe you should give this thread some space and see what develops? I'm not saying either of you are wrong or right, nor that you're unwelcome, but your disagreements are pulling us far, far away from the task at hand.

Whatever the original cause of all this discord, it's best to put it in the past and think instead of what can be done to keep something similar from happening again.

You are right, SHJ.  I had intended to steer clear of this discussion, because I knew that my presence would do more harm than good.  I'm afraid that reading something that so confounded me overcame my good judgment.  If IPS will also take a step back, I will try to let events continue unimpeded.

Quote from: ips on February 06, 2009, 06:00:04 PM
i also suggest that nominations should be restricted to people who are active in the community both by leading and participating in freedomforce specifically related discussions and by showing progress of production or releasing produced content for the freedomforce community within the last 3 months. these will be the people with a vested interest in the community.

I kind of resent this. Not saying that I should have a part in the "official" discussions, because what I think rarely matters around here, but saying that I do not have a "vested interest" in this community just because I havn't had the time to release anything lately is ridiculous.

QuoteSince we have yet to hear from many people who make FX or Script

I knew I was transparent.  Didn't think I was invisible.

But seriously, the scripters of this community pretty much steal from each other constantly.  Nobody minds much, nor does anyone try to hide the fact.  Plus we all go to each other for help, correct each other's coding a lot of the time, so any finished work often ends up containing bit of quite a few people's work.  C4 may be an exception there, but then again he may not.  I simply cannot say.

Me personally I've only ever stolen from FFX or Irrational for coding, both of which sources are allowed anyway.

I haven't wanted to get involved with this, but what a load of crap!
I have been a contributor to FFX , back when Dr Mike first handed over the torch, I have skinned and I have coded a mod, which was almost ready for release. I haven't been active here in awhile, but I was going to get active again. That said with all this going on I'm not sure I'll bother.

Do you guys want to be known as the ones that destroyed the community?
You're succeeding in taking all the fun out of the forum. Anyone visiting this forum with a view to joining our community will be put off when seeing this.

Thread after thread keeps getting created and all you do is fight. Why don't you just leave this well alone? It's hurting the community.

IPS: No prob, I had actually thought of that after I posted. No worries.

Let's just get this nasty stuff over with so we can get back to being a fun place again.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 06, 2009, 06:22:39 PM

QuoteSince we have yet to hear from many people who make FX or Script

I knew I was transparent.  Didn't think I was invisible.

Sorry, I did say 'many' rather than 'any', is my only defense.
What I meant and failed to get across clearly was if anyone making any other content had any rules/guidelines/suggestions exclusive to their area, and not to meshes/mods/skins etc. Apologies if I seemed to have ignored you.

I'm not immediately inclined towards a council myself, but I suppose it might have it's merits. Maybe we should have a Poll on that question, to see what people who don't post in this type of thread think?
And I sort of want to bow out here. At least for a while.
Time for other voices to be heard.
(If anyone else wants to be heard).

Will you guys just calm down and appoint me Supreme Dictator of the World already?

I promise to rule wisely and cruely, sparing none in my rise to glory. All who bow before me will be blessed with joy and my enemies will be crushed beneath my heel. All matters will be swiftly dealt with... those punished will never be heard or seen from again. Such is my power and glory.

Where did the idea of a council come from?

At the most, I suggested a group of people put their heads together and--if this was entirely necessary--draft a few guidelines for reference should something like this happen again. I don't think bureaucracy or administrative overreach is the answer, for sure.

And I'm almost entirely convinced that a Vertex dictatorship isn't the right idea either. Too soon, V.

Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on February 06, 2009, 09:40:21 PM
Where did the idea of a council come from?

At the most, I suggested a group of people put their heads together and--if this was entirely necessary--draft a few guidelines for reference should something like this happen again. I don't think bureaucracy or administrative overreach is the answer, for sure.

And I'm almost entirely convinced that a Vertex dictatorship isn't the right idea either. Too soon, V.

... and I was gonna appoint you minister of groveling. I'm gonna miss you  :(

Do we honestly have enough people who really care about these rules to even form a council?

Most of the rules Tommy posted and IPS edited were basically just writing down stuff we've all followed for years, it's just about having them written down to simply those types of issues that pop up (ie newbie skinner is kitbashing). We don't need a council for that.

The only major rule we'd need to discuss is stuff related to the Benton's mod debacle. Even if we don't touch to no torrent rule, we still need to make a final determination about whether Benton's mod should be subject to that rule. That was the cause of the dispute so something definitive does need to be decided there.

There may also be other issues people want to bring up. So I could see a council being used there.

i have an issue.  it's the issue i had from the beginning.  the lack of politeness, the rudeness, and the hostility.
i pm'ed the major that was super rude before this even began.  i saw it coming, and i begged him to be polite.  he could not.  now that all the drama has happened, he is being superpolite.  very politely baiting.
how many creators have we seen say in various ways, 'i'm not releasing my mod.' or 'should i even bother?' as a result of the rudeness?  how many regulars are no longer posting?  or even logging in?  i've been keeping track.  and i've been very active in the pm's with ppl.
what needs to happen is there needs to be a private forum, maybe not even connected to fr for these ppl that care about minutaie rules to fight it out.  maybe post rules results here.
for me, and a large silent majority, i want to create content, and enjoy other ppl's content.  i don't want to deliberate over technicalities or see ppl argue and bait and torment.
thank you.

Quote from: Podmark on February 07, 2009, 06:50:11 AMThe only major rule we'd need to discuss is stuff related to the Benton's mod debacle. Even if we don't touch to no torrent rule, we still need to make a final determination about whether Benton's mod should be subject to that rule. That was the cause of the dispute so something definitive does need to be decided there.

Unfortunately, this is the case. I say unfortunately because this is also the hottest topic to be discussed here, and is entirely based on underlying assumptions. I doubt that those who believe this is a mod will relent, nor will those who believe this is a torrent.

I'm one for making even torrents entirely the perogative of the creator and not outlawing them altogether, since I highly doubt we'll ever be able to get a definition that makes everyone happy.

Quote from: bearded on February 07, 2009, 07:27:20 AM
i have an issue.  it's the issue i had from the beginning.  the lack of politeness, the rudeness, and the hostility.
i pm'ed the major that was super rude before this even began.  i saw it coming, and i begged him to be polite.  he could not.  now that all the drama has happened, he is being superpolite.  very politely baiting.
how many creators have we seen say in various ways, 'i'm not releasing my mod.' or 'should i even bother?' as a result of the rudeness?  how many regulars are no longer posting?  or even logging in?  i've been keeping track.  and i've been very active in the pm's with ppl.
what needs to happen is there needs to be a private forum, maybe not even connected to fr for these ppl that care about minutaie rules to fight it out.  maybe post rules results here.
for me, and a large silent majority, i want to create content, and enjoy other ppl's content.  i don't want to deliberate over technicalities or see ppl argue and bait and torment.
thank you.

YES. The drama created here is ridiculous. I know passions flare, but there is too much tearing us apart, and the peace of the community should be our top priority.

QuoteI pm'ed the major that was super rude before this even began.

i was pm'ed that this statement was confusing, so, clarification:  i meant i pm'ed before any of the drama began.
and also, i want to state for my own peace of mind, i'm not trying to bait anyone with this.  i don't mention names purposefully.  just stating that i don't like the rudeness, and i saw it coming, and predicted the outcome.  correctly.
someone who displays anger or hostility or lack of self control should not be taken seriously, should recieve sympathy.  and i include myself in that category.  i become emotionally involved when i shouldn't.  so, try not to take me to serious in anything.
a man with a sword is very dangerous.  a man with a rubber dagger is just silly.
(apon consideration edit:)

Quotefor me, and a large silent majority, i want to create content, and enjoy other ppl's content.

1.  i don't want to imply i am speaking for the silent majority in regards to anything other than this specific quote.  by nature of my speaking out, i differentiate myself from them.  i just wanted to remind everyone they are present.  not actively involved with the crisis of infinite posts, but affected by it.
2.  after thinking, i realized, no one can say anything regarding the crisis, without it being taken under suspicion.  so...
2.  a.  remember, i'm a man with a rubber dagger.  don't take me to serious.
    b.  if you feel the need to chastise me, send me a pm.  or...
    c.  if you have to belittle me publicly, send me a link to a different forum.  let's keep this one peaceful.  please?
3.  i'm going to make some new meshes soon.  Vertex inspired me to try again.  they are in progress.  i hope no one is so angry at me, they disregard them.  i like meshing.  i like making things that other ppl enjoy.

What needs to happen is an end to threads like this. Then you will have peace in the community. These threads just keep alive the hostility. Whats done is done, so lets just leave it there.
You can ignore me if you like, I'm getting used to it. I have always tried to be polite to folk here.

I think Pod summed it up, there is no need to have a "council", there is certainly no need for a private thread, that's a bad idea. Can you imagine the uproar from people that were not allowed to participate. The rules that have been mentioned are rules we've all followed, and from time to time they do get broken, mainly through ignorance. Those that have broken them in the past seldom break them again. Lesson learned.

If this keeps up, you can soon rename this board from Freedom Reborn, to Fascist Reborn.

Please, lets try to get back to how it used to be, when we all helped each other.

I know its been 1000 years since I've been active here, but I DO pop in now and again to see what's up.  I still work on mod stuff (albeit in spurts due to having 0 free time) and always figured i put stuff out there for people if they want it when it is in good enough shape.

Now, I was never one of the 'in' crowd.  I did my own mod - plus 2 others that never got released :) - helped a modder here and there with some scripts, playtest for some folks and generally enjoyed the folks around here back in the day.

Looks like those days are gone.

Shazam has hit the nail on the head.  This is drama for the sake of it.  Step back and look at this mess.  'Let's have a few folks get together and come up with some rules for the community'.  What?  If you are a content creator and you don;t want anyone using your stuff, don't release it.  If you want it only used for specific purposes, only give it to people you trust.  Other than those extremes, all you can do is include a note w/ your stuff ASKING people not to abuse it.  You are taking your chances.  That's life when you make content like this.

If the 4 or 6 or 8 people who really care about all this stuff want to argue about, PM each other.  Make up a list of rules.  Form a council.  No one will care.  Period.  As a fellow creator, I'll respect Tommyboy (or whoever) if they ask that a mesh not get redistributed, but what about the folks who don't?  Are we going to hunt them down and kill them?  It's like a record company asking you not to burn Aerosmith CDs.  It'd be nice if everyone listened - hell they even threaten you with legal action - but it doesn't work.  This won't either.  So stop wasting your time and pissing each other off. 

If you love the game, play it, mod it, create content for it and enjoy what little bit of a community remains.  Don't finish it off with something foolish and petty. 

Everyone in this discuss thus far has contributed incredible amounts to this game and perpetuated it far beyond what I think most people would have guessed possible.  Be proud of that.  Celebrate it.  Enjoy it.  But don't get bitter.  When it is all said and done and the anger and the fighting drives even more content creators away, where will the fun be then?  Will a strict set of rules and a committee be fun when there is no one left to be subject to them?  Will anyone in their right mind create content knowing they are subject to the 'council'?  Even if the intention behind all of this are honest, the outcome is going to be insulting at best and fractious at worst. 

Everyone step back and really think about how far this has gone and how much further it can go before you've pushed to the point of irreparable harm.   

Quote from: Shazam on February 07, 2009, 03:27:56 PM
to Fascist Reborn.

lol I like that.

Well, it's always great to hear from the "shut up and give us more free stuff! you're destroying the community!" contingent.
See, what I love about you guys is, when I argue something, and post my opinions, that is "destroying the community".
But when you argue that I should shut up, and when you post your opinions, that is for the good of us all and completely different.
My Opinions= drama for drama's sake fascist crap that is ruining everything.
Your Opinions= the sweet voice of reason and harmony that is saving the community.

Where we seem to differ is that I think that you have every right to post your opinions, whereas you think I should just keep churning out the free content for you and STFU.
Of course, your contributions weren't subject to censorship and you weren't told what meshes or skins you could or could not use by a third party, so why should you care? As long as the meshes/skins/mods keep coming, who gives a fig what the suckers who actually make them think, right?
Well, I did ask for everyone's opinions.
Don't worry, I'll shut up now.
I wouldn't want to "destroy the community" any more than I already have.

Tommy,

I was afraid I was going to come ff exactly the way you took it an dit wasn't my intention - sorry for that.

I guess i really don't see things the way you do, because I have only ever done original characters and mods, so there was no where as much interest in my stuff as yours.  I'm not trying to compare apples and oranges - even though I apparently did.

Let me be SUPER clear here.  You OWE the community NOTHING.  No one does.  I know there are alot of ingrates out there who take what he make, never say thank you - or worse whine about it - and never give anything back.  I understand that and I know it is frustrating.  MY post wasn't about them though.

My post was about the core group of contributors here at FR.  I just think there has to be a way for the long time members to iron this out and get aong without airing dirty laundry.

I certainly have no expectation that you - or anyone else - should 'shut up and hand out more free stuff'.  On the contrary - as I pointed out - I, personally, think respecting a creators wishes is the right thing to do.  One of my points was simply that most people do not feel like you and I do.  That ticks alot of us off, but I think we can;t let that ruin our enjoyment of the game and the community.

I don't think your opinion = drama and mine = clarity of thought.  I think your opinion is fine - respectable even.   Hell, I share it for the most part.  I think the drama starts when the talk of 'rules' and 'councils' starts.  It's an understandable response to frustration, but it is impractical.  The people who respect you and others will respect your wishes regardless.  The people who took you for granted and thumbed their nose sat your requests regarding your content are not going to reverse course because the community posted rules and convened a council.  I just think the frustration on your part (and others) - while 100% understandable - has boiled over to the people who built this community kinda taking it out on each other.

None of this is a snipe at TB specifically (or anyone else).  I just think the frustration factor has got people looking at this from a place where they are too angry to be objective.

Just my opinion - no better or worse than yours, just trying to offer another side to the argument.

I think wickerman summed it up pretty well.

I'm not sniping at anyone either, but this thread proves my point and thats the only reason I say let it be.
I watched my two little ones squabbling today and the first thought that entered my head was Freedom Reborn. They are just 5 and 3 respectively. They fight for little gain and neither wins. It's getting to the point where threads are started, but if anyone offers an opinion they get flamed, thats why I think these threads are damaging.

Quote from: tommyboy on February 07, 2009, 06:12:58 PM
Well, it's always great to hear from the "shut up and give us more free stuff! you're destroying the community!" contingent.
See, what I love about you guys is, when I argue something, and post my opinions, that is "destroying the community".
But when you argue that I should shut up, and when you post your opinions, that is for the good of us all and completely different.
My Opinions= drama for drama's sake fascist crap that is ruining everything.
Your Opinions= the sweet voice of reason and harmony that is saving the community.

I could take that the wrong way as you have done TB and get offended. I haven't contributed to the community as much as you, but I have contributed nonetheless. The reason that I did was as a small token of thanks to all such as yourself who created custom content that enhanced my enjoyment. I don't like being termed the "shut up and give us more stuff" contingent.

Anyway the long of the short of it is that there has been too much fighting and no side will ever win. You've had plenty of say as has everyone else, please just let it go. I'm not trying to make any enemies here, I would just rather have the old friendly community back. For the record, I download very little if anything these days, so I'm definitely not saying shut up and give me.

One last post by way of an apology to Shazam and Wickerman, and any one else reading.
My tantrum was uncalled for, and added little or nothing of merit.
Sorry.
The one thing in there I got right and that I stand by is that I do believe everyone has a right to post their opinions, (especially if they differ from mine).
Now I really will leave this thread alone for a while, as clearly I'm starting to take it a little too personally, and that is dumb.
I do ask that people continue to post, even if it is "why don't you just stop this?", because that's a valid opinion too, (contrary to what I said earlier).

Again, apologies for my last post.

Tommy it's very big of you to apologize in this thread, I didn't take any real offense to your post and I'm sure wickerman didn't either. Don't feel badly since no harm has been done.

I think everyone is getting rattled to a degree and it's natural. I just think that everyone should stand back, take a few breaths, count to ten, take stock of the situation and start over. I don't think that anyone here really wants to fall out with each other and we all from time to time have a bit of a blarney. I know I recently did and felt very silly afterwards and embarrassed. Things like this have happened before, but generally I think everyone learns from it. I'm sure this isn't the last time it will happen either. The reason that this community has always been so strong is because it has been friendly and forgiving.

I now frequent Karate forums mostly, since thats my number one passion, but I still return here now and then, because it's like home.

I'm pretty sure that nobody knows me here as I am a long time lurker that has never participated in any conversation here or released anything to the community.  I realize that limits any impact of what I might say and I am fine with that.  The people that are an active part of the community should have more of a say in things than me, but it is nice that I can at least share my concerns.

First, I would like to apologize for a long post.  I'm trying to cover a few things as they are all a bit interrelated.

I think it might help to first set down some basic goals as to what we want the rules/guidelines/whatever to achieve.  I am sure that there are more goals than what I am suggesting and the idea should be expanded on.  Here are the three basic goals I have thought of.  If a rule can address one or more of these without being detrimental to the others then it is probably a good rule that the community would likely voluntarily follow.

Goal One
Protect the content creators.

Goal Two
Protect the community.

Goal Three
Promote the community/game.

As I said, there is probably more, but these are the ones that I have seen pretty much every modding community I have been even indirectly involved in easily get the community behind.  Pretty much any modding community will follow rules that work towards those three.

An example rule that promotes rule one is that content creators should have every say in how there content is distributed and/or altered.  Such a rule does not violate the other goals.  Tommyboy basically wrote this out in more elegant terms in the first post and broke it up by the type of content in question.

The tricky part is in the gray areas.  What if I were to create an Avenger's story mod and wanted to use Tommyboy's Avenger collection (let's pretend for the conversation that it is for Freedom Force and not Marvel Ultimate Alliance).  The normal route would be for me to approach him about using his content and with his permission include it as part of the mod.  What if however, I did not include his content.  Instead, as part of the install process I provide a link to his web site.  He is still in control of the delivery method and the work is unaltered.  What if I end up using the content in a way he didn't foresee and doesn't want?  He still controls distribution, and the work is unaltered, but it's a gray area in that it's still possible to use the content in a manner inconsistent with his wishes.

Technically, such a thing would not break the rules, but would it break the spirit of the rules?  Would I have broken that first guideline even though it probably brought more exposure to his work?  Things like this would almost always have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

This is a bit easier than I make it sound but it's something to think about.  What about a trickier one?  I'm not up on the particulars, but what about something along the lines Mod Graveyard.  Even though the creators aren't around, and the content would not be available to the public otherwise, without the consent of the content creators (again, I do not know if this is the actual case with the Mod Graveyard or not, but it is easily an issue that could come up as other people might attempt to do similar things without acquiring permission) it blatantly breaks a rule where content creators are the ones to decide how/if their content is distributed/altered.

Now, for the case at hand.  I feel that Benton's mod is very central to the discussion seeing as how it is the very thing that kicked things off.

The problem with Benton's mod is not mass content (I refuse to use the term "torrent" in this manner as a torrent is a delivery method and making a rule about torrents is like making a rule against file compression formats).  Now, how can I state this as if it were fact considering all the recent fighting over it?  I can do so because if the problem with the mod was a matter of mass content then Benton would not be able to address the problem by adding more content.  I'll repeat as I feel this is one of my main points.  If the problem were a case of mass content, then the only way for Benton to appease anyone would be to cut content.  Adding to the mod adds more content and would be the exact opposite of fixing a max content issue.  Yes, he is cutting the content of one creator, but if this were a mass content issue then the only fix would be to cut content.

Then why all the fighting over mass content?  It's basically the same reason some states keep anal intercourse illegal.  They use that to tack extra years onto defile cases as a lot of defile cases involve anal intercourse.  Basically, some are trying to find extra things wrong so that they can attach extra penalties.

So, Benton did nothing wrong then?  No.  What is wrong with the mod is that he distributed and utilized content in a manner that was against the wishes of the content creators.  Seeing as how he is working to change things to address the concerns of the various content creators it is likely a matter of miscommunication somewhere along the line.  Now that he is aware of the issue, he is fixing it.

I would like to address the mass content issue.  I have seen two basic arguments presented.  The first is that it was decided before, but no one can state why it was decided so before.  The other is an issue of exposure.  There seems to be two ways this goes.  One is that of overexposure for those creators featured in the mod, and the other is underexposure for those that aren't.  I've even seen the argument that we should suppress excellent work as it overshadows mediocre work and may make some people feel inadequate.  I think we should throw out this last argument because any rules created for such a purpose would be an attempt to protect egos and we would never be able to protect everybody's ego.  Nor should we try as ego issues are generally a shortcoming of the individual and should have nothing to do with the community.

So I guess the only issue with mass content that could really be addressed is the matter of overexposure or underexposure.  First, we must decide exactly how exposure affects the basic goals for any rules or guidelines before we can decide if a rule is needed or not.  Second, where and how do we decide to limit exposure?  There are many gray areas here.  In the case of mass content, at least the exposure is for the content creator's own work.

It can very easily be argued that offering to host the work of others for free on one's website brings unfair exposure to the person offering the free hosting.  The case can be made that they are getting exposure for the work that other people do.  Are we to ban anyone from the forums that offers in a post to host files for someone?  I really hope not seeing as how this is the only way some content gets released.  However, if we start making rules about unfair exposure, this creates a lot more unfair exposure than a mass content mod does.

Yay for long posts!  On the issue of a council, I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other.  I lean a little towards no real council for a few reasons, but as I said, it's not a strong leaning.  My reasons for leaning that way are one) they would have no power outside of these forums, and even at that only as far as the mods permit.  The second is that this is a community, and not a large community.  There is absolutely no reason why issues couldn't be handled in a town hall format so to speak.  Third, it feels sort of like saying we need parents because we can't keep our hands on our side of the car.  Really what it breaks down to is that we don't want to decide for ourselves, so we want someone else to be able to decide for us.  Either that, or we want to be the ones to decide for others.  Having other people have ultimate say over my decisions has never really sat well with me.  Plus, the type of people that would volunteer for such a position tend to want the power that goes with it.  People make jokes all the time about politicians, and while there are many good ones, there are reasons the jokes persist and we are basically asking people to be politicians.  If a council is formed, and people don't agree with its decisions, then you can expect people to either leave the community, or if enough have a problem with a decision, move parts of it to other places where our council and rules don't apply.

I don't see a problem with rules being about the community because the rules only apply here at these forums so only affects those that are a part of the community.  We are fooling ourselves if we try to convince ourselves otherwise.  If people decide to adopt any rules applied on these forums away from here then that is their business, and the only way that will happen is if the rules created are things that they readily agree with.  That's the main reason I think it is important to hammer out the goals of the rules before actually coming up with the rules.

In closing, I would hate to see rules discussions moved to a private section.  Even the lurkers have a bit of a vested interest in what is going on.  Also, everyone is going to want to at least have an idea of what might come out of it even if it is decided we can no longer have a say.  A closed discussion not only removes our ability to speak for ourselves, but also restricts any information we might get on what is going on or how things are being handled.  I know that there are probably many that are tired of the discussion and would rather not see it.  These same people would agree to anything decided as long as it means that it looks like the community is altogether.  Most people don't care for confrontation and will submit just so they don't have to deal with it.  I am not one of those people.  I believe that having a set of rules that few actually agree with would do more harm in the long run than the damage any fighting from hashing things out now would cause.  That's why, even though I am just a lurker, I felt now was the time to speak up.

I'm not sure if I will be able to get back here soon to reply to any responses due to real life issues.  Please respond as you normally would, but I thought I'd mention it in case I don't get back to respond to anyone.  A lack of response from me is not me ignoring an individual or an issue or anything like that.  It's simply a matter of me not being able to get on to respond.  Any and all may email me if they like as well at NymiethePooh@gmail.com.  Again, I can't always check my email so it might be a few days or a week before I respond, but I will eventually get back to anyone that writes.

IPS, say a person or anyone does not follows these so called rules..  :unsure:
what type of punishemnt would you all suggest?  :huh:
im not being a smart ars but how does it hurt.. taken money out of any ones pocket?
make a living on this game?
im still trying to figure it out..
pm me. explain to me so i can see the big picture
right now the only picture i see is the closing of a bad movie
i really dont think anyone is trying to rip off anyones work
give credit where credit is do

seriously me as a mod collecter.. im not going to take the time to run thru every file and folder to get a specific item.. im sure alot of the content we have already even befor the mishap.. im not going to mention names but, i was curious and went thru alot of my mods and found there is more then 1 more out there with the same issue. that was never brought in the past, as for not going to creaters sites id still go there for the fact never know whats new.. even down load something i didnt think i had .. but then again thats me

Taking content out of one mod and redistributing it without permission is a problem that is a separate issue from mass content mods.  Each content creator should have every right to say how their content is distributed.  Just because someone downloads a mod does not give them the right to take content from that mod and redistribute it.  It's the same as downloading a skin from a content creator's web site does not give me the right to put it in the mod.  No matter how the content is obtained, the content should not be distributed in any form without the content creator's permission.  Downloading anything in any form does not automatically grant the right to redistribute the content unless the creator gave specific rights or some sort of form (sort of like a GPL) granting such rights.

com'on Nymie_the_Pooh im not dumb i know your a member already geese think im dumb?
for the fact you know way too much for a newbie ha  :P

Quotemost people will always go for what's easiest and takes the least amount of work. that's life. you can't stop that but you don't have to help it along.

going threw a mod looking for a specific items seems like alot of work i think.. going to there site would be easier.. thats my real life   :P

this really old game not many has interst in anymore
and what little we have will go away sooner or later
enjoy life man its very short . im not greedy or selfish
that wasnt the way i was brought up.. i do try thats all i can say for my self
but any hoot im staying out of this now  i spoke my peace
you wont see me any more
thanks for letting me see that clear picture
:wacko:

Quote from: ips on February 07, 2009, 11:09:17 PMit promotes modding but hurts (or will hurt) content creators.

This is your central issue, and I understand your concern, but I highly disagree with it. There is more, far more, than just DC content available. There are a plethora of other types of content, like Marvel, or Image, or original characters. Even creators who do a character once have gone over and updated the skin (C6 does this frequently, for instance) or do multiple versions of one character (like Atomic Robot's panophaly of Supermans and Batmans). In addition (all taken from the original DCUG release thread [if you don't like me using your quote here, please PM me and I'll remove it]):

Quote from: steamteckPersonally it encouraged me to look more into stuff rather than made me complacent. I would have never know lots of these meshes existed if not for DCUG.

An example of a player seeking more content from more sources.

Quote from: Cyber BurnHow, specifically, does the DCUG keep other artists work from being discovered? If someone really wants their work to get attention, well...that's what the "Skins" section of the forum is for.

Another skinner who did not feel threatened.

Quote from: Cyber BurnWhen I first started playing  , Flash_22798 had given me all of his back-up disks with FF content. I'm talking meshes, skins, mods, etc, both from other creators, as well as stuff that he did. I was basically given a "mass content file" that had almost every character that I could ask for in one shot. At no time did I draw the conclusion that I was set for life or that I had no reason to return to these boards. If anything, it gave me a curiosity to find out what else was out there, to check out other creators, to check out original characters, and an opportunity to belong to something where I could escape from everyday stress.

Same creator, once a player, inspired not only to seek out new content but join the ranks of creators himself.

Quote from: President RaygunFirst off I'd like to say that I'm  a player not  a creator/ artist and I sympathize with IPS' view that (new) players may not seek out other content if presented with so much of it at one time, that being said,I have to say (and this is no knock on BG) the the DCUG is not the end all be all of dc related content.When I 1st started playing this game and discovered that mods were great way to get skins & meshes I thought "Great", but as my love for this game grew I realized I had to seek out more and thats what drew me to this site. I think if the players have even half the passion for the game that you the artists do I don't think they'll settle for just whats in this mod. I know i didn't settle for the original DCU ;I've spent hours searching for websites, going thru yahoo groups, even the internet archive. I've practically downloaded everything I could find even if I didn't need it. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't believe We (the players) will stop requesting dc content because of this mod, just as I don't believe You ( the artists ) will stop creating it (whether it's requested or not) If a player's gotten to this site they have to know there's more out there than just the DCUG.

Another user inspired to seek more content.

Quote from: tommyboyFor the Record, any of my Meshes, keyframes or skins may be used in any Mod, including DCUG, as main or "extra" content, as long as the readmes are present, or credit is given.
I'd be a little less happy about a giant torrent or Content pack, but so long as I get my credit, would not hunt you down like a dog.

"A little less happy," yes, but still, a creator that does not feel threatened.

Quote from: PodmarkThe concern of a mass content release screwing over other creators is probably not significant. The type of people who would be getting it are either a) People who lost their old content, b) new users who need to get caught up or c) people who don't care about the community at all and just want to play the game (these people shouldn't matter to us as they won't be posting here anyway). I really can't think of many others who'd even want such a thing in it's entirety, and individual meshes, skins etc can be acquired much easier.

A creator not threatened by the DCUG.

Quote from: The HitmanThird...ed? Yeah, I'm barely a content provider, and I'm gettin' razzled by some of these responces....

Anyways, I think we need to take into consideration who will be downloading this... "project" (and I say project as to not tick off the overlords). The vast majorty of us that still play the game are, in some way, shape, or form, content providers. I have to ask- how many of you have multiples of the same character that you use. I don't mean varient costumes and such, but the same character done by two or three or four different skinners/meshers? Has that stopped you from using similar content?

What I'm getting at is, most of us know that when one skin is done, unless it's an obscure character, that skin is not the end- all for the character. That would be silly.

A player who would still seek out new content and, to a lesser extent, a creator who is not threatened.

Quote from: FigureFanHow does including extra content in the mod--directly used or not--screw over creators? Last I checked, I had a brain and free will, which allows me to seek out alternative content besides what's included in the mod download. If I don't like, say, a particular skin or mesh, I'm well aware that there are alternatives by other artists.

Player and, to lesser extent, creator that isn't threatened.

Quote from: Ares_God_of_WarI'm going to preface this by saying I respect every creator that has been in this thread and probably have multiple skins from just about everyone here. My train of thought on this issue is basically "where is Benton advertizing his Mod?" Save for the actual download I believe everything has been on this website. I'm pretty sure that any searching for this mod would bring about 5 or 10 hits to this site. People are curious and if they are looking for content I am pretty sure they would search around the website. Me, when I find a forum I usually go around and poke a bit just to see whats going on. I personally believe for every random person who just downloads this mod and nothing else there would be another 4 or 5 who poke around and find all sorts of new things they like.

A player who continues to seek new content.

Quote from: USAgentI am one who can't see how by having extra characters in the mod is going to hurt the community at all (it might be because I am a player and not a creator) Since this community is so small anymore, we all know where to get skins, who's sites to visit, and what we like, I guarantee by him having extra characters in his mod will not cause anybody to stop coming to FR to check out any new skins/meshes and visiting sites and downloading anything. Like I said maybe I feel this way because I am only a player now a days, i don't know.

A player who would continue to seek out content.

Quote from: billdamn22As a skinner who is not as popular as C6, AA or even IPS. I do not feel slighted by this in any way.

A creator not threatened.

Quote from: laughingparadoxIPS, I know what you're trying to do is to look out for the 'little guy', but we don't need the help.. we have a voice and if we refrain to speak, it's because maybe we don't want to add to any drama. But that doesn't mean we don't have an opinion or that we are scared to say it. As Bill already said, and as I'm saying now, I support Benton's project and I don't feel slighted that someone's work like C6 is looked at over mine. I also don't hold any jealousy over it.. it actually inspires me to do better. Just recently I was finished up an Amalgam Hawkeye skin and looked at C6's extras and thought, "Damn, how does he do it?!", in admiration.

A skinner who did not feel threatened by the DCUG.

There were creators who agreed with IPS on the potential harm to the community, however, and it would be intellectually dishonest to not include their opinions as well.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evilthe more i've thought about it, the more i'm leaning towards the artists side of my personality rather than the gamer. i've had more work stole be it photos, illustration or skins, and trust me now matter what the end result it is in simple terms a kick in the nut sack. now before anyone says i'm accusing BG of stealing, wind your neck in. I'm not. BG did the right thing and got permissions, would i prefer he used my versions of characters rather than c6's or aa. bloody straight i would. thats not a slight at the other creators i'm sure everyone would feel the same. my main point is what is to stop someone who doesn't give a crap about the artists coming along and using BG's work as a base and basically screwing over the artists along with bg by releasing a mod or pack with no credit.

A creator who sees the potential for harm in a project like this.

Quote from: Afghan AntIt's like if someone said I'm going to make a DCU psd file with all the pieces from other people's skin on different layers but I made these three master meshes that can be skoped into any DCU character you want. Why would I (a skinner who learned it the long and hard way) bother skinning anymore? The masses have essentially a Hero Maker for skins. You don't think that would be upsetting?

A creator who sees the potential for harm.

Quote from: Courtnall6I can see how this mod would hurt other creators. I knew Benton was using some of my skins...hell I was planning to update my Hawkman/girl skins plus adding Thanagar soldiers for it...but didn't have the time. It would be very disappointing to me if a player downloads the mod and doesn't bother to look for other people skins to use because mine are "standard". There are talented creators here who deserve to have there work appreciated. For this kind of mod it would have been better to include as many different creator works as he could squeeze in...or none at all.

A creator who sees the potential for harm.

I didn't include anything from IPS, since he made his points known, or Vertex, because he seemed to be more concerned over the rules being broken rather than the artistic implication--in fact, Vertex has stated he wanted the rules changed so BG could release his mod, which implies that he isn't threatened by the project in and of itself. Now, I'm going to do some commentary. If I misrepresent the views of any people here, please correct me.

TUE did say that he believed that Benton had done the right thing because he got permission and was mostly afraid of people who would ignore that step in the future. Well, that's an issue of permission, and if BG or anyone else did not get permission from creators for the use of their work, I would join the board in rebuking them, as I'm certain everyone here would.

AA, like Vertex, has stated that he would've ideally preferred the mod being released, again implying that he was more concerned with the precident for mass file releases rather than being stifled artistically. I may, however, be misunderstanding, since AA has referred to himself as a devil's advocate, and I'm not 100% clear on what his actual positions are.

C6 did see the potential harm, but rather than decry the project, suggested that the work of a plethora of skinners was included, thus preventing other creators from having their work ignored.

Now, I understand this doesn't take into account the number of people who would in fact do as IPS fears. But those people aren't making themselves known, and I believe the reason for that is because those who would ignore the artistic work of the community don't participate in it. The only people who would be content with nothing beyond the sandbox wouldn't have any real incentive to be here anyway.

Quote from: Johnny Patches on February 08, 2009, 12:21:42 AM
com'on Nymie_the_Pooh im not dumb i know your a member already geese think im dumb?
for the fact you know way too much for a newbie ha  :P

That's entirely unnecessary, JP. This isn't the place for suspicion. If Nymie is new, then he's new, and he's got a fresh perspective and a level head. If he's not, respect his decision to remain anonymous.

and i thought all newbies were not welcome for this type of discussions
see its catch 22 around here read between the lines
newbie was stated befor to stay out of this type of discussions
if he wants to remain a newbie stay out of this.
i have nothing to hide my life is not on the line
i can say what i want to say .. its called freedom of speach
does not say anything about suspicion in the rules .. and if so point me to it
im not afraid to admitt i broke rules  and kicked things out the back door...

Quote from: Gremlin on February 08, 2009, 12:31:53 AM

Quote from: Johnny Patches on February 08, 2009, 12:21:42 AM
com'on Nymie_the_Pooh im not dumb i know your a member already geese think im dumb?
for the fact you know way too much for a newbie ha  :P

That's entirely unnecessary, JP. This isn't the place for suspicion. If Nymie is new, then he's new, and he's got a fresh perspective and a level head. If he's not, respect his decision to remain anonymous.

I'm a new poster in this community, but have lurked for a while.  I have been a little active in other modding communities, but nothing major.  A few may recognize the name as I used to be active on the City of Heroes forums (I still miss Cuppa Jo), and can be found on splinter forums from there such as Comics Haven under this same name.  I can understand the suspicion however considering recent events.

I think there comes times when pretty much every modding community goes through something like this.  Case in point is take a look the Neverwinter Nights community recently?  Even with Bioware still being an active part of the mod community there was a recent blow up along these same lines.  Basically, content creators were finding their content in other mods without their permission.  This is content they created to be used by others, but the intention was that the content would be downloaded separately and not as part of any other mod.  It was a bit of a gray area as they did upload it for others to use, but the content creators always thought that others would make a download of their content a requirement for their mods rather than include the content outright.  Also, a much less gray area was where sometime the content was being altered.

This all lead to a few different sites creating a Bill of Rights.  I agree with quite a bit of what is presented in each of those that I have read, but never everything covered in any one.  That will likely always be the case, but I can give in on a position or two as long as I agree with the spirit of each rule.  The reason for all these Bill of Rights (there were probably about half a dozen written up with different flavours depending on which web site you are at) came about because Bioware refused to deal with this issue as it didn't break any of their rules.  So, as far as they were concerned it was a non-issue.  It was pretty much left up to the community to determine what they wanted.  Not that they could back anything they decided without Bioware, but it was important for them to hammer it out nevertheless.

Quote from: ips on February 08, 2009, 12:40:07 AMbut for the record, as long as there is one person who will be affected by this, i will fight. period. thankfully, from my inbox over the weeks and support i have received privately i don't have to worry about that at all.

Then we will never, ever, ever reach an end. Someone will be hurt by whatever this results in. There is no solution that will please everyone, because people are standing in direct opposition to each other in certain fundamental ways--i.e., to what extent is permission the primary factor in mods, is the DCUG a mod or a content pack, etc. People will have to surrender on some points. And no, I'm not singling you out, because I know everyone here has been stubborn. But if toes are going to be stepped on, better to make it so as few people as possible are hurt.

Quote from: ips on February 08, 2009, 01:27:15 AM
i'm saying this just so you understand that statement of mine that you quoted...

i don't do prop6, i don't do prop8, i don't do slavery and i will never stand for any kind of "democratic agreement" to harm a group of people regardless of how small the "vocal majority" view the opposing voices.

the only solution is that we agree to only do things that do NOT harm each other. we should not be fighting on whether or not harm is being done or will be done. it's obvious. and it's rationale.

we just simply restrict our efforts to positive things that don't harm anyone. and i'm sorry, but it's not rocket science.

I understand and agree with you to some extent. However, the people who you claim will be harmed by this are themselves stating that they would not be hurt by it. Some feel they would be, and they have been in contact with you. But the question of whether or not this will harm people is still up for debate. However, we don't know exactly how to judge that. The best way, in my mind, would be to figure out what the majority of the community believes, or perhaps the majority of creators, and abide by that choice.

Wouldn't it be easier to just have everyone agree that if someone has an issue with a mod, torrent, or whatever, to contact the creator of the mod, torrent, or whatever, privately? -and settle it privately? Instead of posting their concerns in the the creator's thread and creating a bandwagon for others to jump on, which then leads to an us vs. them environment, alot of the headaches over the fast few weeks would have been avoided, I'm sure.

Let the person that is offended have their content removed from the torrent or mod. If they don't have any content in the mod and no one else is bothered by it, then the answer is pretty obvious.

Quote from: TaskMasterX on February 08, 2009, 02:12:26 AM
Let the person that is offended have their content removed from the torrent or mod. If they don't have any content in the mod and no one else is bothered by it, then the answer is pretty obvious.

I think that part of the problem here isn't the original mod.  Here is what I mean by that.  Let's say I release a sandbox mod.  Someone comes along behind me and creates a mod using the sandbox I put out.  Creators that gave permission to be included in my sandbox mod enter into it with the agreement that any content they include in that mod can be freely used by any member of the community as any mod can be created off of the sandbox.  The content creator waves any rights to what is done with the content from that point forward.

I'm not against sandbox mods, but people that permit their content to be used in a sandbox need to realize that they are signing away any rights to how that content is used in the future.  The moment their content is put into a sandbox is the moment they no longer have a say in how the content is used and can no longer request that their content be removed from a mod as entering into a sandbox they permit anyone to use their content in any way they see fit.

That's why what you suggest here works in most cases, but not in all.  If a mod is made off of a sandbox, then the original creator has no say in what happens to their content.  They can not request that their content be removed.

Folks, I have removed some recent posts and I am locking the topic, as will surprise no one who saw some of the posts removed. Which posts were split out is somewhat arbitrary, since it was tough to decide where things went too far.

My current intent is that the locking be temporary. The posters with itchy trigger fingers need to give this topic (in this thread and others) a rest for a while and it won't hurt anyone to let this go until tomorrow.

---

Okay, the thread is unlocked again. If people want  to continue this discussion, then let the watchword be "civility".