beware, i'm trying to think again

[bearded]

if all of reality were a bowl of marbles, and you were the center marble, then every marble would be affected by everything you do.  thoughts and feelings and willpower and awareness are physical things.

and, what if the egg that was half of your dna were impregnated by a different sperm?  even if it were the same dna, would you be you?  i mean by that would you have the same awareness that is you now?  what slight change in your stucture for 'you' not to have the awareness you have now?  what exactly is it that is peeking out of your eyes right now?  what if it were someone else?

[ow_tiobe_sb]

if all of reality were a bowl of marbles, and you were the center marble, then every marble would be affected by everything you do.  thoughts and feelings and willpower and awareness are physical things.

Ah, but what if the center were everywhere?...

and, what if the egg that was half of your dna were impregnated by a different sperm?  even if it were the same dna, would you be you?  i mean by that would you have the same awareness that is you now?  what slight change in your stucture for 'you' not to have the awareness you have now?  what exactly is it that is peeking out of your eyes right now?  what if it were someone else?

I have something to confess, BiL: I'm your twin, and I absorbed you before I was born.  You've been reduced to a voice in my head that makes posts on this forum, thinks strange thoughts, and compels me to watch 24 every bloody awful season.

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and The Prat in the Hat

[bearded]

You've been reduced to a voice in my head that makes posts on this forum, thinks strange thoughts, and compels me to watch 24 every bloody awful season.

exactly so.  you should try watching all episodes straight through.
i'm trying to puzzle out the nature of self awareness and the impact of willpower on everything.  'everything' being connected.
self awareness is hard to understand.  if you have memory problems, like i do, then all you have is the moment.  my 'belum is fine tho, thanks for asking.
what i mean is, all that connects you to the person you were 10 years ago is memory.  but even without memory, you still have the current awareness of seeing and hearing.  what if you weren't you?

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

If you weren't you, then you wouldn't exist.  If the egg you came from united with a different sperm, the resulting person would have been someone completely different.

what i mean is, all that connects you to the person you were 10 years ago is memory.

There are more things.  Even a person with amnesia retains certain things, like the ability to speak.  They there's your physical body, which is definitely altered by your past.  Then, there is also the effect of your own life on the history and timeline of the world.  Subtile for some people, more obvious for others, but it still has an effect.  Your actions in the past do effect you, and everyone around you, in the present, whether you remember them or not.  In other words, who you are, matters, no matter what.

[bearded]

i'm trying not to sound to plebia.
if i am in my head, my brain to be specific, then what if.  what if my brain matter were sliced away in increments and replaced with exact bio duplicates?  would i stop being me at some percentage?  not questioning if there would be life, just if my particular awareness would be there. 
what if, instead of bio matter, it were replaced with exact nano mechanicals, that did the same functions?
i think, in my head.  i know what i'm thinking.  you have thoughts, but i don't know what they are.
updated thoughts.
do we know where self awareness is in the brain?  what if my brain were seperated in half, and placed in a clone body?  there would be 2 people, one of which would be me?  my own particular awareness. 
cat, if a different sperm would make a different person, what changes to my dna would it take to effect a change of 'self'?  so that a person would go on living, but not me.

[ow_tiobe_sb]

There are two things that 'twere best you discarded: the concept of fixed identity (which is perhaps better understood as fluid yet replicable) and the concept of representative government (which perhaps 'twould be better fired and replaced).

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and The Prat in the Hat

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

cat, if a different sperm would make a different person, what changes to my dna would it take to effect a change of 'self'?  so that a person would go on living, but not me.

I sort of agree with ow_whatever.  One's identity is fluid.  Changing sperm at birth would be one thing, altering your dna after you are born and have an identity is another thing altogether.  Would that consitute a different self?  I would say no, but that's partly out of my spiritual beliefs, and partly (and somewhat related to that) because I believe in the concept of a soul, a self attached to your body, but not part of it.

[tommyboy]

Discussions of this nature are problematic in that one falls back on metaphors to speculate.
For instance, the "river" metaphor for consciousness and identity: the water in a river constantly changes, but each river remains itself, even though its course may shift and twist over time. So although the River Thames that flows through Oxford today is in every physical sense NOT the River Thames that flowed through Oxenford in AD 1100 (its path is different, the water is different, the banks are different etc etc), it is still the Thames. So my "self", (even though my physical, mental and metaphysical properties are not what they were ten years ago), is still my "self". The things that define an object, entity, or concept are generally Pattern, and Relationship To Everything Else.
If these are not varied too much, the definition remains true.

[bearded]

these are all good enlightening answers.
i'm finding it peculiar to try and define it from the perspective of the current river thames as compared to the past one, and the tributaries (you guys).
cat, what if there is an exchange of souls?  who's to say how many souls have been filtered through?  do you consider memory an aspect of soul, or body? 

[ow_tiobe_sb]

For instance, the "river" metaphor for consciousness and identity: the water in a river constantly changes, but each river remains itself, even though its course may shift and twist over time.

Does it remain itself, or does it become a drink of water for a miner in Harlech, or an ice cube in a CEO's cocktail in Beijing?  Who's the force of identity in this instance: the river, the observer of the river, the monad of monads (a.k.a. the eternal observer of the river and the human observer)?  To what extent does identity reside within a thing (which may or may not be a simple congeries of qualities and quantities) or is ascribed to a thing?  Moreover, where do the boundaries lie between thing observed and observer?

*he smiled mischievously (as the thread participants turned over and over very old philosophical questions) and waited patiently for the resident FR cognitive neuroscientists to arrive*

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and The Prat in the Hat

Trivia: Wilde studied Hegel a great deal at Magdalen College, Oxford.  ^_^

[bearded]

so.  i percieve you, and take you into my awareness, making you a part of me.

i'm pretty sure i remember prebirth incidents, but ow_whatever is there, so it may have been a dream.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

cat, what if there is an exchange of souls?  who's to say how many souls have been filtered through?  do you consider memory an aspect of soul, or body?

One can alter the memory with drugs, a hit on the head, damage to the brain. That makes it, or at least the part that interacts with the physical world, physical.  And yes every belief about an afterlife or a soul has a person retaining memories after either death or separation from the body, so perhaps it's both.  I'm afraid I can't give a straight answer on this one.

cat, what if there is an exchange of souls?  who's to say how many souls have been filtered through? 

I find such a possibility improbable.

[BWPS]

Gross, you said sperm!

[bearded]

Gross, you said sperm!

with queititude and reverence, is this one of the resident FR cognitive neuroscientists we are waiting for?

[ow_tiobe_sb]

is this one of the resident FR cognitive neuroscientists we are waiting for?

'Tis unlikely; however, what he is rhymes with "neuron." :P

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and The Prat in the Hat

[detourne_me]

I think the main problem in your query is this:  you are so concerned with self-awareness and defining your own identity. but in the original bowl of marbles question, you state how every action you, as the center of your own little universe affects everything else. 
The true question is; how do all of the other marbles perceive your identity, since they are they ones that are affected by it?

now, since i believe objectivity is an unattainable ideal, you only have your own subjective opinion of your own identity, and every other marble in the bowl has their own similarily subjective thoughts of the identity of the marble in the center.
change is inevitable in mind and body, however you are not limited to only your own memories, but the subjective memories of the marbles around you too. revel in that.