Wonder Woman, Flash and the Justice League of America

[zuludelta]

Superman is inherently tied to space travel & life on other planets (and aliens having super-powers), so it's a better fit, and easier for a non-comic reading public to buy into.

That's true enough (and we did have Zod and friends back in Superman II). But in a movie that already has Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and possibly Martian Manhunter vying for screentime (with some type of origin subplots for the latter four), there's probably not enough time to properly set up the White Martian invaders as a credible plot element.

As always, I'll judge the film when I see it, but I can't help but go off thinking about the ways it could be done wrong.

[Mr. Hamrick]

Thanks Hamrick for the clarification.  Yeah, Bale and Nolan weren't entirely too disinterested, they just thought the timing(and I agree) is bad and they wanted to wait until they are done with their third film.  Routh wasn't totally against it.  In fact, he was interested(come on, he's a former unknown getting the role of Superman.  Like Jackman with Wolverine, he's having fun and the role made him).  Unfortunately, contractually he would probably not be able to participate.

I'd like to clear up a misconception here.  Both Bale and Routh have signed 3-movie contracts, and an optional ensemble film is already built into the contracts as being the studio's option to do instead of a starring role film.  So if the actors are being allowed to refuse, then it's because the studio is giving them the option.  They have their own reasons for wanting to use other actors.  Their contracts oblige them to do the movie if the studio actually insists.

I'd like to counter that assumption.  While both of them have been signed for "3 picture deals", without seeing the exact wording of the contracts, then its impossible to know rather that was "Three Batman or Superman films" or playing said characters in three films.  I've had to deal with contracts recently with regards to a project that I am involved with and the language can be rather vague and a bit of a gray area at times.  However, with a contract that is between two distinct parties like that, I suspect that there was some very specific language as to what Bale and Routh signed on for.  For that matter, I doubt the two of them probably signed the same sort of deal, particularly Bale.  The bottom line is without seeing that contract then we can only go on what has been reported and we do not know for sure if that "ensemble film" option was in place or not.   

[detourne_me]

how is it so hard to set up a white martian invasion storyline?  they could modify it from the comics easily.
heres what I'd do:
open with Superman taking out some mechanicial behemoth thing  (maybe a giant spider) he does it and is getting honored in some sort of way...   his super hearing picks up a bank robbery, or something, he leaves the celebration to go stop it,  only to see that the heist has been foiled already, in super-fast time. enter the flash.
supey and flash can do some banter and have some high-speed hijinxs... maybe simultaing a race around the world type thing.
as they're racing,  across the atlantic or something,  flash gets distracted by a hot girl sunbathing or something...  y'know slows momentum and falls into the water.  turns out the girl is wonderwoman...  maybe she starts running to catch up to them or something...  they take a breather.  supes introducesd diana, and we get a whole origin story from her through a flashback or something.  she asks about Flash.  he just has a witty quip about his origin.
yadda yadda yadda.  batman calls out and interrupts the three.   says he found something odd.  turns out it's Jonn Jonnz.   he's all like psychic backlashy and stuff from coming to earth,  so when the heroes confront him,  he starts putting up a fight. and since the heroes are unprepared, and well manhunter's pretty beast its a good fight until diana can rope him up.   then we get the MM origin and he explains that all the green martians were killed by the white or something, and now the white martians are coming to earth.
insert some plot and intrigue here.
then we've got batman, superman, flash, WW and MM.  they'll be facing off against a horde of white martians... things start looking bleak (maybe get luth0r involved to,  just so he can use a line like "Well, I for one, welcome our new alien overlords.")
yeah so things are looking pretty dark for our heroes, when,m whats this, a green light from space shows up and yeah turns the tide.  Enter green lantern,  short backstory there,  including how he's an intergalactic cop, and these white martian dudes are bad guys.
Ta-Da!  justice league.

you gotta remember,  we're not going to be getting a christopher nolan type story with this movie. or even a bad rendition of watchmen.  it's going to have to be more akin to Fantastic Four then any of the X-men movies too.  a nice mix of humour, and action

[AncientSpirit]

If they're not going to use Routh, wouldn't it be great if they got Tom Wellig to do it?   By the time JLA is out, Smallville will be done and I'm hoping the very last shot of that series is Tom sporting the S and flying out of the fortress as Reeve did in Superman 1.

[stumpy]

I wonder if this is going to be an "Origin of the JLA" movie or one where the team is presumed to already be established? I think I prefer the latter, though I can see the former providing a more convenient backdrop for character origins.

BTW, if I were guessing (and I have no idea), I would think the chances of getting Routh to do Superman are greater than those of getting Bale to do Batman. Bale is a hot property right now (and deservedly so, IMO), so he may be looking to move on to other projects by the time this gets going. I don't know if Routh will have made a name for himself by then.

[bredon7777]

Biel has turned down the wonder woman role..

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/34223

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

The bottom line is without seeing that contract then we can only go on what has been reported and we do not know for sure if that "ensemble film" option was in place or not.   

]

Indeed, what I said earlier has been reported, but professional entertainment news reporters.  Both contracts specific three films in the Batman/Superman franchises, with an option to make one of them an ensemble film.

[zuludelta]

I was reading a review of the Fantastic Four 2: Rise of the Silver Surfer DVD when I read an interesting comment posted by none other than Peter David, where he pretty much says the same thing that I was saying in my previous post regarding the notion of having aliens show up in a superhero film (emphasis in bold my own):

I'm sorry, but I think it's absurd to dwell extensively on comparisons between a movie and the comic story on which it was based. Especially since--let's face it--if "The Galactus Trilogy" was seeing print for the very first time today, readers would be shredding it. A silver guy on a SURFBOARD? How stupid is that? The Cosmic Nullifier would be dubbed "the Cosmic Deus Ex Machina." Taking a movie that one experiences as an adult and stacking it against a comic book story that one experienced through the far more credulous eyes of a ten year old...it's ridiculous.

The Watcher? Uh uh. When you're dealing with suspension of disbelief in a film, you want to introduce one outlandish plot device and one only. The Surfer, and the being he represented, was the plot device. On top of that, you're going to layer a gigantic bald alien voyeur? Forget it. It's too much for an uninitiated audience. You simply can't tailor a script to the sensibilities of the hard core comics fans if you're going to leave the vast majority of the audience behind.

I had no problem with the concept of leaving Galactus as mostly a creature left to the viewer's imagination, especially since the sight of a giant purple and blue guy with giant metal antlers striding around New York might have provoked laughter. Personally, I thought the film was a lot of fun, and a vast improvement over the first one.

PAD

Introducing the Silver Surfer and Galactus in FF2 worked because they were the only outlandish plot device (as the Fantastic Four and Dr. Doom were already introduced in the first film, and thus were already part of the audience's "normal" background information). In a Justice League movie, even if you take the position that the recent Batman and Superman films serve as pseudo-sequels, there still too many disparate outlandish plot elements to reconcile into a 2-hour film palatable to the uninitiated viewer, even without the introduction of a White Martian or Starro invasion.

One major problem (in terms of writing a story suitable for film) is that the Justice League members all have different origins that rely on similarly outrageous premises, unlike films like Fantastic Four or X-Men, where the characters all basically derive their powers from one source. With the FF, you only have to show the accident that gave them all their powers, and with the X-Men, the writer only needs to introduce the idea and concept of mutation and mutant superpowers to give the audience enough background information to be able to invest in the characters. With the Justice League, even taking away Superman and Batman, you'd have to introduce (and make plausible within the context of the film) an island nation populated only by warrior-females (Wonder Woman's origin), an intergalactic police force that just so happens to choose a human to work for them (Green Lantern), and an extradimensional "Speed Force" that can be tapped into to provide superhuman speed (Flash's origin). That's just way too much character set-up for a single film. Of course, a writer can just go in there and do a quick, throwaway set-up for each character, but then you'll just end up with something like the live-action Street Fighter movie, where every other line contains a painful amount of exposition. It's this same reason that I think doing a good Avengers movie will be a lot harder than doing a decent FF or X-Men movie.     

[BentonGrey]

Bah

[Protomorph]

Ok, let's take the "Hollywood Writer" method of these characters' origins.

If they intend to spin off Flash and Wonder Woman movies from this, the origins in JLA will be brief and skim.

Flash: Struck by lightning
Wonder Woman: Ambassador Amazon from a Greek Island

Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern are trickier.

Green Lantern: Found an alien ring in a box of Cracker Jack
Jo'nn Jonzz: Insane mutant that thinks he's from Mars.

They are brought together by Batman to fight...a giant metal spider. Or something else equally as lame. Terrorists, then. why not? This film will be as much about getting together and finding trust than any other threat they may face, perhaps more.

Even though Superman has never gone out of his way to actually meet these other heroes before now, Batman has complete dossiers on all of them, including aliases and weaknesses.

They call him paranoid, etc, but he is justified when one of them acts TOTALLY out of character and thye need that info to stop him/her.

Once the threat is over, and he gets to know them as people, he trusts them and they decide to make a team.

Ho hum.

[steamteck]

So is the gist of this that the Mainstream audience is too Unadaptable and stupid to accept a decent Justice League movie and it needs to be simplified and mundaned down to an unacceptable level? Personally I think that's nonsense that smacks of Hollywood's superiority complex coupled with the active ( yes, active not passive) stupidity of its higher ups. Look at the idiocy at Warner Brothers anyway

[zuludelta]

So is the gist of this that the Mainstream audience is too Unadaptable and stupid to accept a decent Justice League movie and it needs to be simplified and mundaned down to an unacceptable level?

Not really, at least from my perspective.

The point is that there are elements in certain long-running serialized stories (particularly one with as extensive a background as the JLA) that make it particularly difficult to adapt into a 2-hour feature film of reasonable quality. The problem isn't that non-comics reading audiences won't respond favourably to a well-done ensemble superhero movie that is reasonably faithful to the source material (because they will, if the first two X-Men films are any indication), the problem is that condensing the JLA source material into a suitable feature-length script and plot is a pretty tall order given the characters' individuated origins.

The same type of thing happens with the Star Trek movies. There is such an extensive backstory, implicit continuity, and history with the characters and their universe that it's virtually impossible to give audiences unfamiliar with the TV shows a fair approximation of their depth and characterization. To somebody who has never seen the Star Trek TV show, Mr. Spock is just guy with funky ears and a bad haircut and the screenwriter will be battling uphill all throughout the movie trying to make the uninitiated viewer feel even a fraction of the emotional investment a fan of the Star Trek TV show has in the character of Mr. Spock.

By that same token, Green Lantern is just a guy in two-toned long johns and a mask until the writer gives the naive viewer a few good reasons to care. The most relaible way the the writer can make the uninitiated viewer care about the character is if they actually spend a significant amount of screen-time on characterization, and in an ensemble JLA movie that has at least 3 or 4 major leads and at least that number again in significant supporting characters (all whose powers originate in unique contexts), that's a lot of time to spend on what Freytag would call the exposition.

[Mr. Hamrick]

The X-Men and Justice League comparison really doesn't hold much water first off.  The reason being that most of The JLA was meant to be a gathering of the "Big Guns" of the DCU plus Martian Manhunter and Hawkgirl.  It would more the equivalent of trying to get a decent Avengers movie not an X-men movie.  The X-Men were always designed to be a team and, while some of that has been upstaged by the popularity of a certain admantium clawed Canadian, they have always been a team.  In movie terms, they are an ensemble.  Not saying your wrong with the rest of the analysis, Zuludelta.  In fact, you're spot on. 

Doing a JLA movie with the aforementioned "big guns" plus Martian Manhunter and Hawkgirl would never work quite as well as someone is going to get short changed.  Usually its going to be the "fan-boy" who will be screaming bloody murder about how their favorite character wasn't given enough screen time or wasn't 100% accurate.   The latter will happen with ANY comic adaptation.

Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, and Batman are the "big five" in the DCU and all have extensive backstories.  We all know that here.  I would dare say that all of us would say give each of them their own film over putting them all in one film.  Before anyone goes and cites the series, it is a SERIES and had multiple episodes.  There is no guarantee of a proposed JLA movie being a franchise.  Given the WB's recent statements, I wouldn't hold my breathe for much character development in certain characters anyway.

So no Steamteck, that is not the gist at all.  It's not that the mainstream audience is too unadaptable and stupid.   It's that there is too much material on the individual characters to avoid having to simplify it down.  Otherwise, you're going to have a 3 hours or so origin story before you even start to bring the characters together.  As for what you term as "an unacceptable level" vs. an "acceptable level" as far as having to fit 60+ years of back story for Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman not to mention Green Lantern, Flash, Hawkgirl, and Martian Manhunter (the last two probably has the least amount of the bunch to fit) in roughly 40 pages of a script.  On and before you ask, 40 pages of a script is roughly 40 minutes of film time.  The next 60-70 pages would be the action of the movie, most likely.   With the last 30-35 pages being the climax and resolution.  That would put the movie at the two hour mark right there.  Yes, you could make a three hour movie.  The average film though is about two hours presently.  Many studios will tell you that the average should be about 1 hour and 45 minutes.  Now, having established that, how exactly do you propose putting backstory for seven major DCU characters in to that little of space without simplifying it to some degree.  And remember, we only got a handful of Xmen backstories in the Xmen movies.  We didn't even get complete backstories on most of the ones we got.   
   

So is the gist of this that the Mainstream audience is too Unadaptable and stupid to accept a decent Justice League movie and it needs to be simplified and mundaned down to an unacceptable level?

The point is that there are elements in certain long-running serialized stories (particularly one with as extensive a background as the JLA) that make it particularly difficult to adapt into a 2-hour feature film of reasonable quality. The problem isn't that non-comics reading audiences won't respond favourably to a well-done ensemble superhero movie that is reasonably faithful to the source material (because they will, if the first two X-Men films are any indication), the problem is that condensing the JLA source material into a suitable feature-length script and plot is a pretty tall order given the characters' individuated origins.

[Revenant]

My wish for the plot of a JLA movie is:

Lex Luthor hires Professor Ivo to find a way to de-power Superman.  The initial attempts prove inadequate and attract the attention of Batman and a certain shapeshifting green guy.  Ivo steps it up, and a Bizarro clone or two is born, along with the prototype for "Amazo".  This would be the nano-tech version from Justice League the animated series.

Perhaps there are cameos from Ra's Al Ghul, a terrorist warlord who spies on Batman's every move, and Barbara Minerva, an archeologist who specializes in Ancient magical artifacts.  They are business partners of Lex's and lend their expertise to his nefarious scheme.

Then Amazo is unleashed, and nearly kills Superman, Batman and Jonn with their own powers, along with some extra powers that nobody has seen Superman use before, like green energy constructs and reflective arm shields.  When all hope seems lost, enter Green Lantern, Flash and Wonder Woman, who were summoned telepathically by Jonn.

The League has a titanic battle with the andriod.  It demolishes Washington DC.  Lex Luthor has a change of heart and gives Batman kryptonite, which Wonder Woman and Flash use to destroy Amazo (who looks like Superman by the way.)

Lex escapes before the League can capture him.

[stumpy]

I think zuludelta and Mr. Hamrick have nailed the major hurdles a JLA movie will have to overcome. And, I think you guys even agree on the X-Men, since zuludelta was only using them as an example of audiences accepting comic book-based ensemble movies. He pointed out earlier the difference between and X-Men or F4 teams where there is only one origin story to tell and a JLA or Avengers team where there are several.

As one of the nutty comic book fans who worries about these sorts of movies, my issue isn't that they aren't 100% true to the comics or that my fav'rit doesn't get enough screen time. After all, I thought Spider-Man was very good and they changed aspects of the comic version. The concern I have is that they fail to capture the feel of the character. For example, it was creepy to see Superman using his powers to stalk Lois and break up the stable home she and Richard had created for Jason. For me, things like that were worse than other big plot holes in the movie. If they can capture the feel for the big seven in a JLA film, then I won't be as concerned about whether they got every part of the origin stories right or if Hawkgirl doesn't get enough screen time.

[steamteck]

As to the background, I then still maintain the cartoon audience must be at least more savy  because the Timm Justice league  Beginning was a pretty good story and just an hour and a half. Back ground on most characters was minimal and they just told a good story. You don't have to find everything huge for intros IMO, Just a micro introduction is really all you need for each. Non braindead people will understand most things I'd expect or prove my generally low feelings about average intelligence true. ( he's an interstellar cop, he's a Martian, She's a visiting alien ) Tons of movies introduce tons of characters and give them a little background quickly , these techniques don't cease to exist just because they're strange. A good team can make it work. Weather it will be great is less likely unfortunately.

[Talavar]

As to the background, I then still maintain the cartoon audience must be at least more savy  because the Timm Justice league  Beginning was a pretty good story and just an hour and a half. Back ground on most characters was minimal and they just told a good story. You don't have to find everything huge for intros IMO, Just a micro introduction is really all you need for each. Non braindead people will understand most things I'd expect or prove my generally low feelings about average intelligence true. ( he's an interstellar cop, he's a Martian, She's a visiting alien ) Tons of movies introduce tons of characters and give them a little background quickly , these techniques don't cease to exist just because they're strange. A good team can make it work. Weather it will be great is less likely unfortunately.

Except that first episode of JL is one of the weakest of the series, GL, Flash, Hawkgirl and Wonder Woman are virtual ciphers to those without prior knowledge of the characters, Batman & Superman rely on being established by the individual series of each, and the abilities & personalities of all of the characters are short-changed in the conflict with the White Martians/Imperium.  Only J'onn of the newly introduced characters is given any real character development, because the plot hinges on him.  The cartoon manages to pull it off, but it not particularly well, and it was definitely up hill for the series from that opening episode.

[steamteck]

[

Except that first episode of JL is one of the weakest of the series, GL, Flash, Hawkgirl and Wonder Woman are virtual ciphers to those without prior knowledge of the characters, Batman & Superman rely on being established by the individual series of each, and the abilities & personalities of all of the characters are short-changed in the conflict with the White Martians/Imperium.  Only J'onn of the newly introduced characters is given any real character development, because the plot hinges on him.  The cartoon manages to pull it off, but it not particularly well, and it was definitely up hill for the series from that opening episode.

Bah! It may be one of the weakest of the series but if a live action version were that good everyone would be Raving. 10,000 times a better plot idea for a start than Tower of Babel. Cyphers, maybe but They still had plenty of personality and thats more than you get in lots of  "good"  live action movies. My wife just doesn't watch cartoons and the characters intrigued her enough to sit down and watch. It wouldn't be hard to add a 5-10 minute little intro for each to get people up to speed as the character comes on the scene. Any one who doesn't know basically  who Superman and Batman are won't get out of their bomb shelter to see a movie and Wonder Woman is pretty close. You just need the basics. If the movie fails it will be because WB screwed it up not because it was impossible IMO.

[Mr. Hamrick]

no one is saying that is is completely impossible, Steamteck.  I am saying that based on the standards you seem to be placing on it that it's pretty close to impossible.

[steamteck]

I'm not sure what standards I was placing on it. I said that Tower of Babel was a stupid first story but that's about it.  Personally I've liked most  the Superhero movies that have come  out recently. Only the Hulk has majorly disappointed me. I even liked Daredevil. We are apparently speaking different languages. I heard everyone saying there were massive problems to  a JLA movies and decades of character history could not be caught up with. All I was saying is the audience could get the characters with minimal explanation and introduction without being mind boggled.  I'm sure ti won't be up to Timm standards but still has potential. Superman/ Doomsday has proven to me even a sucky comic can make a good movie. I think  problems that really aren't problems were being cited. That's all I meant. Sorry if I was misunderstood.

[bat1987]

Possible cast:

Superman: Scott Porter
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2187603/

The Flash: Adam Brody
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0111013/

Green Lantern: Common
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0996669/

Batman: Armie Hammer
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2309517/

I got this info from http://www.batmanytb.com/news.php

[Ajax]

Looks like it may be cancelled.

[Mr. Hamrick]

Looks like it may be cancelled.

me happy if it is cancelled

[Figure Fan]

I hope it gets cancelled, too.

They need to make this movie when all of the right pieces can fall into place. It is a big deal of a production, and half-arsing it on the "fast track" is surely not the way to go. To be honest, I'd rather see a few separate movies with deeper character development and mythos than a crammed FX spectacle of 'flat' characters. Make Wonder Woman in her own film. Green Lantern might be cool, especially with the popularity of the new book. The Flash? I guess..

[the_ultimate_evil]

see sadly you wont ever get all the pieces falling into place. there will never be a perfect time. if you do seperate films then if they do well studios will push for sequels which will hold it up longer.

and if you want to wait for the likes of bale and routh then forget it now. both bale and nolan have said that is they wont touch JLA unless its done exactly how they want.

[BentonGrey]

see sadly you wont ever get all the pieces falling into place. there will never be a perfect time. if you do seperate films then if they do well studios will push for sequels which will hold it up longer.

and if you want to wait for the likes of bale and routh then forget it now. both bale and nolan have said that is they wont touch JLA unless its done exactly how they want.

Do you have a quote about that TUE?  I've heard that Bale said he didn't like how Bats was portrayed in the JLA script, but that's it.  Considering that it was supposedly a Tower of Babel treatment, that makes perfect sense to me.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

It looks like Routh won't be playing Superman any more in any form anyways.  Got that news a few days ago.

[BentonGrey]

Well, he wasn't bad in the part, but he wasn't fantastic either.  'Course, that probably had more to do with the story than anything else.

[the_ultimate_evil]

see sadly you wont ever get all the pieces falling into place. there will never be a perfect time. if you do seperate films then if they do well studios will push for sequels which will hold it up longer.

and if you want to wait for the likes of bale and routh then forget it now. both bale and nolan have said that is they wont touch JLA unless its done exactly how they want.

Do you have a quote about that TUE?  I've heard that Bale said he didn't like how Bats was portrayed in the JLA script, but that's it.  Considering that it was supposedly a Tower of Babel treatment, that makes perfect sense to me.

not off hand sorry, it was post over at superherohype.com. it was coming from nolan that bale didnt want to do two back to back batman performaces, and that it ruined what they had established and it should follow there leads, which while i can agree does come across as a really childish  mine mine mine attitude

[BentonGrey]

I can see your point of view on that, but considering the context (what I know about it) it makes perfect sense to me.