A poorly organized, not very original rant about anime

[captainspud]

Fair warning: I doubt the following rant is very original. I don't claim to be the first person having these complaints.

The first anime I ever saw was Akira. I was about 12, and I was absolutely baffled about what the hell was going on. I know it's supposed to be this seminal work, and criticizing it apparently means there's something wrong with me, because there's clearly nothing wrong with the movie. Apparently. But I came away from it with only one impression: There is something seriously wrong with Japanese people.

Over my teens, I had a few friends who were into anime, and I caught a few episodes of random shows every once in a while. And I was always excited to watch them, because when my friends explained the stories beforehand, they sounded pretty freaking awesome. But then I'd watch them, and a) The stories were WAAAAAY weirder than my friends had told me, and b) The stories that my friends exlained to me in two minutes? Yeah, apparently they required in excess of twenty hours to tell. So yes, A fights B and it's really awesome, but they fight each other over the course of eight episodes of a show, during which they throw maybe 15 punches. And the rest is composed of staring, thoughts, flashbacks, analysis, and lots of stern talking-tos.

I just... I don't get it. The basic stories they're telling are fantastic, but they're being told SO. FREAKING. POORLY. They take WAY too long to get even the simplest things done. Sure, I was excited to see A and B fight, but that was in episode 2 of their showdown. By episode six, I'm literally shouting at the screen, "STOP ALL THE [MOD EDIT]darned[/MOD EDIT] TALKING AND THROW A [MOD EDIT]darned[/MOD EDIT] PUNCH ALREADY!"

I'm watching Naruto right now because I'm REALLY bored and it's all free on YouTube, and it's driving me insane how bad the storytelling is.

1) As mentioned, everything takes too damn long. A two-minute fight has no reason to last ten episodes. There's just no way to justify all the time they're wasting
2) The dramatic toolset they're using is getting pretty tired. And by toolset, I of course mean tool, singular. All of the drama in this show—ALL OF IT—is generated by having something happen, and then having people act ABSOLUTELY, UNBELIEVABLY SHOCKED that it happened. A throws a punch, B dodges it. "What?! He dodged it?!" Um... yes. He dodged it. In fact, he ALWAYS dodges it. YOU'RE FREAKING NINJAS. YOU DODGE EVERYTHING. WHY IS THIS SHOCKING TO YOU EVERY SINGLE TIME?!
3) People accuse American film and TV of being cheesy and formulaic, but Death Killerz XII can't hold a candle to this thing. Hey, let's see if I can predict the next 200 episodes of the show!

-Villain appears, explains his ENTIRE plan and the minutiae of ALL of his powers to the heroes, waits half a season, then fights them. Fight is... inconclusive. Villain slinks off, to return... some day.
-Every fight featuring the male leads will consist of: Hmm, he looks tough! In head: It will take all my power to defeat him! Out loud: You stand no chance of defeating me! Fight ensues. Opponent pulls out ridiculous unfair advantage, kicks male lead's [MOD EDIT]buttocks[/MOD EDIT]. EPISODE CUT. Start of next episode, opponent hits male lead one more time, which apparently reminds main hero: "Oh wait! I forgot! I'm a ridiculous uber munchkin!", male lead proceeds to win for no apparent reason. Rinse, repeat.
-Female characters continue to be paperweights. [ I've been counting... in 52 episodes, Sakura has done 5 things that can be considered to have been productive: throw dagger, throw dagger to catch male lead from falling, throw shuriken, fight Ino (part one, before 30 minute block of flashbacks, duration: ten seconds), fight Ino (part two, after 30 minute block of flashbacks, duration: 20 seconds). ]
-Male leads continue to learn new super powers at a glacial pace, despite the fact that, from what they've told us so far, learning a new move is as difficult as... opening a book.

For anybody who's seen it... did I about cover it?

4) I took an animation course once, and the prof loved anime. He made a comment once about how Japanese animation is superior to American animation, because it's fluid, with a higher framerate. I agree with him entirely—it's not hard to have 60 frames per second of animation when you're TRANSLATING STILLS ACROSS THE SCREEN. I would guess that roughly 1/3 of the shots in any episode have NO internal motion of ANY kind. They're either translated/zoomed stills, or just plain full-screen, non-moving still shots.

(Point #4 doesn't actually bother me that much, it's just something I like to point out when people make that really stupid argument.)

So, you ask, why don't I just stop watching and quit my [MOD EDIT]complaining[/MOD EDIT]? Because deep down, there's still a really great story being told. It's interesting, it's fairly original, and it's compelling. And when a guy DOES throw a punch, the animation is fantastic. It's a beautiful show with a compelling plot... I just wish it was available in a format where I can get a whole 25-episode season compressed into about 3 hours. Edit out the recaps (which take 1/3 of some episodes, just to remind viewers what happened last episode), the flashbacks (to remind viewers of things that happened, say, four episodes ago), the interminable stare-offs... basically, just cut out all the BS and let me watch ninjas beat the crap out of each other. I wouldn't even lose any of the story.

I get that it's meant for a different audience. Maybe Japanese kids have the patience for this stuff. I'm not a completely crass North American viewer—I have episodes available to me subbed AND dubbed, and I'm choosing the subs because I'm getting a lot more of the subtle details and such out of them. I'm willing to put in the effort to enjoy the show, but as I said, it's driving me insane to watch the show do the same stupid things over and over and over again.

Is it me? Am I just missing the point?

Am I just watching a particularly awful show?

Sigh. Rant over.

:(

[Verfall]

Naruto is just Dragonball redux.

For anime you want to go for the Cowboy Bebops, the Samurai Champloos, the Spirited Aways etc.
The problem with the ones like Naruto is they're practically infinite. They cram tiny amounts of good stuff into every episode. The 24 episode series', the ones that have endings planned out ahead of time, are the ones youn want to go for.

Watch Cowboy Bebop, if that doesn't make you feel better about anime nothing will.

[The Pwime]

Yeah, Cowboy Bebop was pretty sweet.

In fact, I even like Ghost in the Shell... there's no uber powerfulness, no *gasp, he evaded my attack!"...just lots of yummy storyline, guns, and a great animation style.

[Blitzgott]

The "OMG HE SO STRONG NOT KNOW IF CAN WIN" thing is standard. I'm yet to watch an anime/read a manga where it doesn't appear. It's quite lame, indeed. There's no need to keep reminding us how strong the enemy is; just make it evident on the fighting sequences.

Like Verfall said, you should check Cowboy Bebop. Personally, I didn't like it very much, but most people tend to change their way of viewing animes after watching it. If you think you're the same, give it a go.

[gengoro]

Id also add Berserk(fantastic series), Ninja Scroll, Mobile Suit Gundam The 08th MS Team  and Gungrave to the above recommendations.  Stuff like dbz, naruto, etc aint really the best representation of anime.

[captainspud]

-I've seen Ghost in the Shell, it was okay. Very pretty, but it didn't shake me to my core or anything.

-Also saw all of Evangelion, which started out as a perfectly serviceable giant robot cartoon and then turned into a colossal philosophical mess at the end. I just felt... deceived.

-Saw the Cowboy Bebop movie (never seen the show), it was a while back and I don't remember much, but I think I liked it. I'll try to track some more of it down. A question though-- is it easier to watch because it's good and the rest sucks, or because it's just more like "our" cartoons and such?

-Saw Spirited Away. Kinda clever, but just way too weird for me.

I've never come away from anything in anime and had that "wow" feeling still on me. It's ranged from utter bafflement, to "It was okay". Even the best ones weren't THAT interesting.

Sigh... I guess I'm just not the target audience. :/

[Blitzgott]

Id also add Berserk(fantastic series), Ninja Scroll, Mobile Suit Gundam The 08th MS Team  and Gungrave to the above recommendations.  Stuff like dbz, naruto, etc aint really the best representation of anime.

Berserk is really cool. I really like the protagonist. I wish someone made a mesh of him.

The manga is even better than the anime, IMO. It's worth checking it out (I think Image is distributing it on the US).

Edit: Changed "love" to "really like". Yes, I'm moronic as that.

[Midnight]

Sigh... I guess I'm just not the target audience. :/

What a concept! :P

[Zippo]

I think a lot of it is the anime you've seen. Dragon Ball (Z/GT), Naruto, Bleach etc. are all "infinite anime"s as I call them. They're based off mangas (all 3 of which are quite good in that form) but because of their popularity they constantly add fillers, flashbacks and random crap that deviates from the main story. Anything to cash in on the series' popularity.

Personally, I'm a fan of the new(ish) 13 episode series format, because they have a much shorter ammount of time to tell the story, so it cuts out most flashbacks and hour-long pre-battle "charge up" sequences. Which is just fine by me.

Then again, if you are really opposed to the surreality of anime, I fear that many of the best series will be lost on you.

Some of my favorites are: Evangelion, Excel Saga, Gantz, Ergo Proxy, and Mezzo is pretty good too. 

Based on what you've said so far, you might try Ergo Proxy and Mezzo out and see what you think. Mezzo is a finished 13 ep series, and Ergo proxy has the first 8 episodes out in english so far.

[Cardmaster]

I had the same thoughts as you regarding anime till I watched a series called Haibane Renmei. The story told is amazing, it tells it at a really great pace, full of drama as well as humor, and the animation is FRICKIN' GORGEOUS. It's all done in this watercolorish style with crisp, clean pencils..
Also, I just loved the characters, they were all very intriguing and well-developed, and when one of them died over the course of the show, I actually welled up a bit..

Don't know if it's on YouTube, but if you happen to come across it, it's AWESOME.

-CM

[Lycus]

I've only seen three. Spirited Away, which you already admitted to finding too weird. Princess Mononoke, might be less weird, but hard to say when there's gods and magic in play. Last was Kiki's Delivery Service, definitely not weird, but it comes at the cost of being aimed at younger (female) audiences - Still a nice story though.

[Mr. Hamrick]

I'm going to echo a lot of what Verfall and Zippo said.  I'd also recommend "Perfect Blue" and "Serial Experiments Lain", "Armitage the III", "Noir".  I really enjoyed Cowboy Bebop too but it's been mentioned, though I will say that the series is WAY better than the movie.  

In general, Spud, one thing that I have always stated in defense of anime is that there is anime material created for multiple age groups, tastes, lifestyles, etc.  Whereas the American market (not speaking for the Canadian market as I am not Canadian) of animated work has traditionally been considered to be roughly 3 - 12 in age range (those numbers are arbitrary but its a good range for the purpose of my point).  The age range is as much "cultural" as it is "market research" and other factors.  For the longest time, the biggest sources of animation were coming our of Disney and Warner Brother's and were being geared toward kids.  There are obvious exceptions to this rule and I think this is slowly changing but still for a good chunk of well beyond my 31 years this has been the case.  It is the same as the general perceptions about "who reads comic books" that has gradually changed over the years and is changing still today.  

Having said all that, certain Anime still gets pushed more toward younger audiences and audiences in general due to "established market factors".  Your "Pokemon" and your "Inuyasha" and your "Naruto" definitely fall into this catergory.  The "Gundam" series is too for the most part.  

And as you said, you may just not be the target audience.  I have a few friends who are in the same boat.  

[Spam]

www.anidb.com

Check that site out for any info on any anime you may be interested in watching. And I might also suggest a few, myself. Cowboy Bebop, which was already mentioned hundreds of times... Um, there was also FullMetal Alchemist. That runs about 51 episodes, but its worth to watch every one. Trigun was really good and humerous. Great ending, too. FLCL is supposed to be really good, but its only an OVA, which is about six episodes. Hellsing was another good one, sorta weird, but good.

And... Yeah. =p

Hope you find the anime that calls out to you, Spud. 'Cause nobody can live without anime. Just not Naruto and crap...

FORIAMSPAM!

[UnfluffyBunny]

without going into huge details of why I love anime :P

naruto in short:
if you're going to watch, for the love of jeebus watch the japanese with subtitles, if I hear one more kid scream believe it i'm gonna start breaking things >_<
and... naruto IS etremely dragged out, and it's full of fillers which have nothing to do with the show.

why? because some how, the anime takes less time to make than the manga, and so they make it take longer so the manga has a chance to get ahead, then when they cant stretch it any further and they've run out of story, they give you weeks of absolute irrelivant garbage till the manga gets ahead again.

Bleach is made by the same company who made naruto and also suffers from the prolonged dragging out and occasional filler, tho nowhere near the standard of naruto, and atleast their whole filler arc was good.
anyway, insomnia, coming upto 5am... must return to sleep

[Verfall]

I actually watched, and have, a 2004 series called Area88. It's a 12 episode series based off a manga and an OVA from the 80's. It's about a group of pilots in the middle east who have been forced in various ways to sign contracts worth a million+ to fight in a mercanary air force. They rack up money per kill and have to spend that on their planes, ammo and basic living expenses, with the rest going towards paying off their contract so they can leave. Fantastic anime for a plane nut like me, and it's only 12 episodes long so you know it actually ends. It has a main plot involving the main character, a photographer and a love triangle that actually works with the action of the movie. There is also one epsiode involving a sniper that is easily one of the best pieces of storytelling I've ever seen in an anime.

On a different note, never EVER watch an anime in english. Dubs are disgusting. If it's not subbed, it's not worth watching.

[GhostMachine]

Naruto sucks. Bigtime. Its soooo overrated it isn't even funny. The manga is sometimes slow paced, but is a LOT better than the anime - Naruto himself isn't even nearly half as irritating in the manga, for one thing.

I'd recommend the aforementioned Cowboy Bebop, and also The Big O if you can find the first season anywhere. The Big O is a darn good series, but you pretty much need to see a good chunk of the first season before watching ANY of the second, or you'll be going `WTF?!' big time. The series ender is also a bit weird, but doesn't really distract from the rest of the series that much.

Bebop and Big O have a lot of the same voice cast; Steven J. Blum\David Lucas (he's used both names as a voice actor) does the voices of the male leads in both series, and Wendee Lee who does the voice of Faye Valentine does the voice of a recurring character named Angel in Big O, for instance.

What I'd suggest is going to a bookstore or looking online to find some translated manga books, browse and find if there's anything you like, and see if its been made into an anime. If you have a Borders or Waldenbooks nearby, take a look there.

If you like harem comedies (one guy with a bunch of girls around), I'd suggest Love Hina or Negima as good manga series. Love Hina had a bit too much fan service, but was still a good series. I've seen several subbed episodes of the Love Hina anime and it was well done, but you do have to read the manga for the real end of the series.

Anime recommendations:

The Big O
Cowboy Bebop
Martian Successor Nadesico
Tenchi Muyo
Tri-Gun
Both Vampire Hunter D movies (Vampire Hunter D and Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust)
Robot Carnival (Its a movie made up of various short stories)

With Tenchi Muyo, look for the first set of OVAs, since they're the start (and have really kick butt opening and ending themes if you get the dubbed version), and avoid Tenchi In Tokyo like the plague, as Tenchi In Tokyo is downright boring for the majority of the episodes. I highly recommend the dubbed, as the voice acting is top notch.

Interesting bit of anime trivia: Johnny Yong Bosch does the voices of the male leads in Bleach and Tri-Gun (and maybe some other stuff, but that's all I've watched with him in it that I can think of). He used to be a live action actor; he played Adam, the second Black Ranger in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and was also on Power Rangers Zeo and Turbo. He's a darn good VA.

Oh, and frankly I didn't like Akira either. It did have some groundbreaking animation for its time, but that was about it.

And Verfall is an anime purist, I guess. I prefer dubbed over subbed myself, if the voice cast is good. I'll watch dubbed or subbed but generally prefer dubbed as if I have to get up to do something I don't have to rewind to go back and read what I missed, dialog wise.

One series I want to check out and will be getting subbed if I ever do? Excel Saga. Because I've seen previews of the dubbed version and the lead character's voice is extremely irritating.

[BatWing]

the anime shows i like is
gundams series
naruto
rouroni kenshin
cowboy bebop
bleach
vampire hunter d(of course)

[Zippo]

On a different note, never EVER watch an anime in english. Dubs are disgusting. If it's not subbed, it's not worth watching.

On the contrairy, IMO FLCL had amazing english voice acting. I'd recommend it aswell Spud, its got great art and music. Only thing is, it's just about the most insane thing ever.

Certain companies do a much better job of dubbing than others.

[GhostMachine]

I have an intense dislike of FLCL. I can understand why some people might like it, but I'm convinced that show causes brain damage. I watched 2 episodes of it, and that was 3 episodes too many. (No, that's not an error)

I picked up the Jan\Feb issue of Protoculture Addicts at Waldenbooks yesterday - no idea why they still have it but don't have the March\April issue yet - and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suziyama is getting released in North America in May. I'm going to check it out because is has two of my absolute favorte voice actors in it - Wendee Lee as the lead character, and Crispin Freeman as Kyon. Wendee Lee is easily my favorite female voice actress (well, actually tied with the voice actress who does Major Kusanagi in the Ghost In The Shell Stand Alone Complex series, but I can't think of her name at the moment), and Crispin Freeman is just downright awesome. (He REALLY rocked as Albedo in the Xenosaga games)

Anyone know if Coyote Ragtime Show is any good?

(I've got quite a bit of reading to do - besides the issue of PA, I also picked up Negima vol 13, and got the latest Shonen Jump and a couple of mainstream comics from my subscription box at the comics shop, and all I've had time to read are the two comics and a couple of articles in PA)

[captainspud]

I think we're getting a little off-track here... I was trying to start a flame war.

:angry:

[GhostMachine]

I think we're getting a little off-track here... I was trying to start a flame war.

:angry:

You suck at life. -1 level\overness\whatever

[Volsung]

DBZ,Kenshin/samuraiX,Naruto or any of those 'burning youth' fighting series are always inferior to the original book...Rushed and stretched to last tons of episodes...
That's the shame of the japanese animation and sadly the most famous part.

Cowboy Bebop,Samurai champloo or Wolf's rain are way more elaborate on any point.(By the way the targeted audiance is older)

I'm a standard japanime fan, but American animation is not inferior to japanese one.
It only a matter of effort,budget and time.I'm still amazed by the care of some old batman Tas episodes.(Speaking of framerate!)
The fact is animation (and mangas) are one of the spearhead of Japan.
They're really productive...and like any country they can create masterpiece or commercial botched bull*hit.

I must add...that some japanese series suffered a lot when they were translated and dubbed in american...
Plot...dialogs are often modified, simplified and filled with 'Fu*in' ubercool gimmick sentences'.

So captain if you really want to give japanime a chance, you should try something better
As an exemple you can't summarize all american cartoons to nickelodeon's stuff.
(Oops^^ wrong exemple^^ I love SpongeBob SquarePants)

Try Satoshi Kon ,Mamoru Oshii,Katsuhiro otomo,Koji Morimoto,or Hayao Miyazaki work

[Mr. Hamrick]

Wendee Lee is easily my favorite female voice actress (well, actually tied with the voice actress who does Major Kusanagi in the Ghost In The Shell Stand Alone Complex series, but I can't think of her name at the moment),

her name is Mary Elizabeth McGlynn.

Mimi Woods did the English dub in the first movie.  

[Jakew]

Mate, you really have to be a bit picky with anime to enjoy it.

Aim for the good stuff, ignore the trash that's aimed at selling toys.

Great TV series I can guarantee you'll enjoy: Samurai Champloo, Cowboy Bebop, Gantz, Neon Genesis Evagelion, Slayers, Paranoia Agent, Giant Robo.

Great anime films if you liked Akira: Castle of Cogliostro, Ninja Scroll, Ghost In The Shell, Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, anything by Miyazaki (just watch them on rainy weekend, with a beer).

You'll find a lot of the series/films I mentioned are by the same directors.

[thanoson]

Guess I'm the only one that liked DBZ. But I had seen most of it subbed 10 years before most episodes made it to the states. The original voices were much better. I was also a bigger fan of the movies and anything Brolly related.

So, does Robotech and Starblazers make it on the list of acceptable anime? Starblazers may have been before "traditional anime" but it was surely an inspiration to me growing up. And Robotech was cool because it was 70% drama, 30% action. And everybody died on that show. Which was a new concept from what was out there in the world of cartoons.

Loved Akira. Wish I had takin an hallucinogen to really have been tripped out. As it was, I thought they captured that high pretty well.

Supernatural Beast City was another I liked. Guy had a big Gun. Spiderchick had webs coming from.... well, can't really say.

Legend of the Overfiend. Hmm.... wife was pretty put off by this movie. It's got some naughty scenes in it. But, if you like tentacles, this was the movie for you.

Fist of the Northstar. Ok, I'm a big fan of the fast fight scenes. This one had them and more. From the hundred hand punch to Shin's slicing attack, this had fighting. Just stay away from the live action version.

Liked the 1st Vampire Hunter D. The Undertaker never looked so good.

Guyver and Giant Robo were both good. Was Giant Robo a manga before it was Johnny Socko and his Flying Robot?

Robot Carnival was supposed to be the japanese version of Heavy Metal. Not the same impact, but was fun to watch.

I agree on the Trigun, Bebop, Wolf's Rain, Samurai Champloo, Full Metal Alchemist assessments. These are very good series. Was Perfect Blue the one with the insects? I liked that one too.

[UnfluffyBunny]

perfect blue was the one about the thing and the person that wanted to be that thingie who was doing that other thing.
(post made now non-sense'a-tized for volsung's pleasure :P)

I think I can pretty much say I have access to what has to be one of the largest anime collections in england, belonging to my brother, i'll have to take pics later to prove i'm not exagerating, lol

[Volsung]

Bunny I suggest you replace your first sentence with something else than MASSIVE SPOILERS! :P

[thanoson]

So, anyone know what the title was for the giant insects cartoon? They had an armed force fighting these bugs.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I second Robotech, and there's even a new movie that just came out that continues the series.  I'm also quite found of the books series connected with it.

[Flying_Infant]

I'd hafta agree with whats been said alot too.... Bebop, Champloo, Wolfs Rain all were great watches to me.  I liked Trigun too, but not as much. I'd always recommend anything Lupin related, movies and tv show for humour.

Though I do hafta ask.....am I the only one who liked Eureka 7?