invunerability

[Hiroki8]

how much would be enough to reflect the invulnerability of characters like:

Hulk level (Sentry)
Thor level (Gods? Hercules, Wonderman)
Colossus level
She Hulk level (Juggernaut?)
Thing level
Loki level (Enchantress)
Ironman level (armored characters)
Ms Marvel level (Rogue, Luke Cage, Rhino)
Fin Fang Foom (Giant monsters)
Sentinels (giant robots)
Giantman (growing characters at their max height)
Galactus (entities, Dark Phoenix)

[wickerman]

Yikes!   That's a big time list and i am not very well versed in some of the people on it.

I would say it all depends on how much damage your hero files dish out ona  regular basis.  Keep min mind as well that invulnerability does not equal toughness all the time.  Iron Man is a great example.  He is VERY hard to hurt, but he is just a flesh and blood guy inside the armor.  The Thing on the other hand doesn't have a soft and squishy center.  there is no armor to 'get through' on the thing.

Let's say you are comparing the Thing and Colossus just as an example.  I personally think the Thing is MUCH tougher than Peter, but a tad easier to hurt.  No let's say they are each going to fight a Sentinel.  Assuming we say it is all hand to hand, and further assuming this sentinel has been designed with enough physical strength to actually hurt these guys, we can use the 3 combatants to rate each other's strength and defense.

If we are to assume that Colossus has the best body armor (invulnerability) of the bunch, we need to see what it would take for this Sentinel to hurt him - however minor that injury may be.  If the Sentinel's attack consistently does 15-20 points of damage, giving colossus 15 points of invulnerability gets you a good defense.  You may want to give the Thing 10 points in this instance (remember these are examples, I am not suggesting these are going to actually work in the long run).  Now if you also give the Thing a high Endurance and Colossus lower Endurance, the Thing will get hurt mnore often, but have mpre ability to suck it up (more hitpoints) Colossus will get hurt less, but go down faster if more lucky shots get in.

Likewise, if your thing has more powerful punches than your Colossus, scale your Sentinel's invulnerability to match. 

Keep in mind too, that material types give protection from some attacks.  Metal material would make the Sentinel and Colossus 50% resistant to crushing attacks.  As such, a 10,15 or 20 invulnerability may make them invincible unless they are fighting a ticked off Hulk.

Again, it depends very much on how you scale your heroes.  My Thor only has 5 points of Invulnerability, but he has the Physical Resistance attribute and a 9 Endurance.  He can stomp the crap out of my Thing, Colossus and a platoon of Sentinels at the same time.

[Hiroki8]

sorry for the long list its just that the invulnerability that I placed seems to make the characters that have them almost impossible to beat but when I lower them (I lower the rates for all that have them so they would be proportionate) it would be too easy for a 4 man team to beat for example the Hulk so I was wondering how to do this..

What exactly did you do for this? :unsure:

[wickerman]

I would say if Hercules, Iron Man, Thing and She Hulk are beating the Hulk 4v 1 there is no problem at all.  On the other hand, if Cap, Wasp, Hawkeye and Black Widow are chipping way - yes there is an issue. 


I'll try to pull Thing and Colossus from memory and give you a example of how I balance them.  I think it is about how much damage is being done vs invulnerability and hitpoints.




Thing
Strength - 8
Agility - 3
Speed - 4
Endurance - 8
Energy -5

Material - stone

Attributes:

Grim resolve
Tough Guy
Invulnerable 10
Heavy Hitter
Temperature Control

Powers (the relevant one anyway)

Clobberin Time  Crushing melee, high intensity, 0 cost, medium knock back, medium stun, normal speed

Colossus
Strength - 8
Agility - 3
Speed - 4
Endurance - 5
Energy -4

Material - metal

Attributes:

strange visitor
Tough Guy
Invulnerable 15
Heavy Hitter
Temperature Control

Powers (the relevant one anyway)

crushing blow -   Crushing melee, high intensity, 0 cost, medium knock back, medium stun, normal speed


Now with 8 strength and high damage, each guy does 13-54 damage with an average of 27.  Both have 50% crushing resistance due to material types.  So, each takes 27/2 or 14 points of damage per shot.  The Thing has 10 invulnerability so he will take 4 on average.  Colossus with 15 invulnerability will take none.  HOWEVER, Thing has 8 endurance vs Colossus at 5.  That means about 200 hitpoints vs 100.  The Thing can be nickeled and dimed, but needs only land a few big time shots to drop him (assuming no overpowering)

Using this type of comparison, you can then just take a third character and say 'Ok where does Wonder Man rank in comparison to these folks?'

[Hiroki8]

so basically the level of invulnerability determines how tough your skin or armor is but not how much endurance you really have?

[wickerman]

pretty much the way i see it.

Some people like Superman are very hard to hurt and very hard to take down on top of it.  Others, like Iron Man as i mentioned - are tough to hurt but just people underneath.

Likewise, Aquaman is minimally resistant to damage, but a heck of a tough guy to bring down.  I would give him 2 or 5 points of invulnerability at the most but a 6 or 7 endurance to bulk up his hitpoints.  Lex Luthor in his battle armor on the other hand would be tough to hurt but once you got through, any street level guy could physically hurt him.

Now none of this matters much in the context of, say, Thor vs the Hulk.  If a really ticked off Hulk hits Aquaman as ard as he can, Aquaman is going down, period.  Thor, on the other hand has more endurance and probably some resistances/attributes that keep him in the fight.  Accounting for this can make for a big gap between Sub Mariner/Rogue level heroes and Hercules-types, but unless you want Rogue beating Hercules in a fist fight, sometimes you have to accept the limits of the game and make your decision as to whether or not you want the super heavy weights in their own class or not.


I would say Superman and Sentry have about 30 or so Invulnerability and Stone material types (this is great for supes because it is weak vs mystical attacks).  This basically makes them impervious to any crushing shot 60 points or less.  (30 invulnerability and 1/2 damage from stone material.)  That means that the minimum strength needed to scratch them (assuming no overpower) is a 5 with an extreme damage attack and it will barely tickle them.  Only characters with an 8 strength and very high level attacks will cause them any real trouble.  also, ranged powers do MUCH less damage in FF than melee.  The lightspeed attribute is basically required if you want some one to be able to hurt big guns with invulnerability.   For this reason, be very careful making high invulnerability chars resistant to fire, energy, acid, electricity or rads unless you really want them to be unstoppable (like Juggernaut.)



hope this helps.

[Hiroki8]

ok wow thats a lot of adjustments to think out..I followed this chart for the endurance:

1 - Old or kids
2 - Normal
3 - Thugs Soldiers Cops
4 - Basic superhuman
5 - Fighters
6 - Enhanced human (Cap, Wolverine)
7 - Superhuman Durability (Rogue, Luke Cage)
8 - Invunerable (Thing)
9 - Class 100 and above (Thor, Wonderman)
10 - Unmeasurable (Hulk, Galactus, Silver Surfer)

Now for the invulnerability I started out at 7 with about invulnerable 10 each...then 8 had invulnerable 15 and so on although I was having trouble with certain individuals like Dark Phoenix who isn't really a very durable but is practically untouchable...

should I still follow this and just adjust the invulnerability..I find that enemies that don't have super strength do very little damage to those with Invulnerability if at all.. what if I just remove it all together? and is physical resistance attribute better? 

[Hiroki8]

I tried the physical resistance and seems to be a bit lacking...

[wickerman]

Physical Resistance does not actually block damage at any set level - it just makes you take 1/2 damage from ALL attacks.  It basically doubles your hitpoints to look at it another way. 


For DP, I'd go with a very high invulnerability or body aura (or both) and a mid-level endurance - kinda iron man style - hard to hurt but not hard to take down (well if you happen to be Paralax or Spectre anyway)

I am not sure what you mean by

Now for the invulnerability I started out at 7 with about invulnerable 10 each...then 8 had invulnerable 15 and so on ...

Do you mean you agve everyone that had a 7 endurance 10pts of invulnerability?  I would advise against marrying the 2.  Luke Cage for instance (Well back in the Power Man days, I have no idea what he is like now) was bullet proof, but large caliber rounds and overall badasses could still hurt him.  I certainly would not give him 10 invulnerability.

Likewise, the Thing is alot more armored than Thor - Thor just happens to be a beast to bring down.  I have seen Thor bleed...

[Hiroki8]

yeah thats what I meant..how would go about determining which characters would have how much invulnerability and how much durability?..is it just by how much you think they should have?

so here goes:      Durability        Invulnerability    Material Type - really have no idea how to balance this one
     Thing                 8                     10                Stone
   Colossus               6                     15                Metal
Ironman/Doom          5                     10?               Metal
   Luke Cage             7                     5?               Metal?
Thor/Hercules?         9                      10?
Ms Marvel/Rogue       7                      5?
  Wonderman            9                      5?
Hulk/Abomination      10                    15?
   Apocalypse           9                      10?
     She Hulk             9                      10?
    Ares/Loki?            8                      10
    Armadillo              7                      10
Wrecking crew         8                      10?
   Sasquatch            8                       10?
Blackheart/Mephisto  9                       15?
    Giantman             7                       5
      Ultron               7?                      10 
    Sentinels             7                       10
      Cargill               7                       5?
      Dragon              8                      15?
     Galactus            10                      20?
   Juggernaut            8                      15?
Namor/Blackbolt       8                       10?
   Silver Surfer          ?                        ?

     Magneto             6                 Energy Shield   Energy = 8
   Dark Phoenix          6                 Energy Shield   Energy = 10

[TaskMasterX]

The key thing to know when converting resistances and invulnerability is to know how much damage the Powers do. If you know that then you basically just design the resistance to block that amount of damage. What Magnitude do you give your Melee Powers? If you consistently give your characters with 5 Strength a Medium Magnitude Melee and 6 Strength High Magnitude, then you can design the invulnerability based on whether or not you think the target can shrug off the blow of someone with a 5 or 6 Strength and design the invulnerability/resistance to block that amount of damage. You also need to make sure that you match the damage being done from other Powers (energy beams, radiation explosions, etc.) to the damage being done by the punches so they are blocked equally. I made charts for this in my Conversion Document.

I found that Invulnerability alone isn't the best thing to use to simulate a character's resistances. For one, damage that is suppose to KO the target will KO them, even if they have enough Invulnerable Points to block the damage. Also, Invulnerable Points are considerably less effective against Overpowered attacks, which the AI uses often. I found that using a combination of Material (I use the Concrete Material because it gives resistance to all damage, except Energy, Mystic, and Mental, even for characters made of metal, like Colossus. Remember that you can add the subtype 'metal' to their m25ai file so they will still be affected by Magnetic Repel, Attract Powers and the Magnetic Swap normally), Resistance Attributes (Strange Visitor, Armoured, etc.), Invulnerable Attribute, and Passive Defenses work the best for me.

[Hiroki8]

basically I made everyone with super strength have medium melee attacks except for some cases where they have high..wouldn't high damage attacks be too much for non super strong/durable characters to handle already?

where did you get the concrete material?

[TaskMasterX]

basically I made everyone with super strength have medium melee attacks except for some cases where they have high..wouldn't high damage attacks be too much for non super strong/durable characters to handle already?

Well, that depends on how many HP your 'normal humans' have. If you set your 'normal humans' to have no higher than 4 Endurance, then they'd have 70 HP and 40 HP for a 3 Endurance. I usually play in Very Hard/Impossible Difficulty level so all characters have the same amount of HP as Player-Controlled Characters. A character with a Strength of 6 and with a High Mag. Melee could drop a character with 3 Endurance (Scarlet Witch)in approx. 2-3 hits (or maybe 1-2 OverPowereded hits). Someone with a 4 Endurance (Captain America) will go down in approx. 3-4 hits (or 2-3 OverPowered hits) but a character with a 8+ Strength might be able to take them out in quicker. That is, if the character getting pummeled doesn't use a Hero Point.

where did you get the concrete material?

I use MrBrdo's Hero Tool to change the material to concrete. Just make sure you re-check the character in game if they have any powers that didn't exist in  :ff: (like Cones, Buoyancy, Remote Active Defenses), to redo them.

[stumpy]

You can also just hex the material setting for the HERO file. If you open the file and search for material. Somewhere around byte 2970, you will see several strings that are the template attributes for the character. The material string looks something like

Code Select Expand

6D 61 74 65 72 69 61 6C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 for a flesh character.

For concrete, change that to

Code Select Expand

6D 61 74 65 72 69 61 6C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 41

For air, change that to

Code Select Expand

6D 61 74 65 72 69 61 6C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C0 40

For cloth, change that to

Code Select Expand

6D 61 74 65 72 69 61 6C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 41

(Only the last two bytes are changing.)

See Alex' material chart for the various material resistances.