I enjoyed The Ultimates volumes 1 and 2. But volume 3's first issue has me scratching my head. Any help here would be appreciated: (Possible spoilers ahead)
- Why is Haweye dressed like a cross between JSA's Sand and Bullseye?
- Why is Thor sporting arm wraps (ala every generic anime or video game character) and the old school hammer?
- Why is Wasp wearing a mask even though her identity is public knowledge? And her hair turned red-brown?
- Panther (Black Panther I guess) is already a member when the story starts... and nobody cares that he got thrown many blocks away and never came back?
- Venom can actually fight the Ultimates, namely Thor?
I have more questions, but that should do for now. My head is dizzy. :wacko:
Quote from: Mowgli on December 07, 2007, 03:40:04 PM
My head is dizzy. :wacko:
My head's still dizzy. :penguinspin
Joe Mad has a very anime inspired kind of art style. Hopefully that explains all the costume changes to you.
I have no idea how Venom can stand up to Thor. maybe he's just that strong in the Ultimateverse.
I have no idea how Black Panther got there. :blink:
How helpful I am. :P
If I remember correctly, ultimates 3 doesnt answer questions right away. The writer plans to answer those questions down the line and not right off the back. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Valkyrie's appearance. ;)
Quote from: Mowgli on December 07, 2007, 03:40:04 PM
1. Why is Haweye dressed like a cross between JSA's Sand and Bullseye?
2. Why is Thor sporting arm wraps (ala every generic anime or video game character) and the old school hammer?
3. Why is Wasp wearing a mask even though her identity is public knowledge? And her hair turned red-brown?
4. Panther (Black Panther I guess) is already a member when the story starts... and nobody cares that he got thrown many blocks away and never came back?
5. Venom can actually fight the Ultimates, namely Thor?
Note: The writers have said that Ultimates 3 takes place a year or so after Ultimate Power ends.. and this storyline ties into the upcoming "Ultimatium" event that somehow shows that the 616 Universe and Ultimate Universe are tied to each other and after all of the dimensional traveling that the Fantastic Four and The Ultimates have done is causing them to crumble into each other.
[spoiler]1. Hawkeye has taken on a more "snake-eyes"-esque look because of his death wish after watching his entire family butchered in v2 of the series. The bullseye on his forehead is obviously a nod to the Bulleye character since the Ultimate version of Hawkeye has shown to be deadly with throwing things as well as a dead shot with any ranged weapon as well. I don't mind the new look because it's better then the Matrix inspired outfit that kept changing with each artist.
2. Thor has arm wraps and an old school hammer... well...because of the artist wanting him to be drawn that way. Plus I think certain artists didn't like his "ultimate hammer" for some reason (too big? more hi-tech then Asguardian?). And it might be connected to Thor finally accepting his magicial origin and getting a real Uru Hammer from his father as a reward for finally taking out Loki. Plus I think it might tie into Ultimate Valkyrie's own gain of power after being powerless for so many past storylines.
3. Wasp is quite well known for changing costumes all the time and probably decided to have that particular costume with a mask. Plus I think it also has to do with her new leadership role and having her identity protected since she now needs to appear in full size in public now.
4. Black Panther is just a new addition who probably showed up in the time between v2 and v3. I'm very sure that Hawkeye (who left to find him after the battle) will stumble across him blocks away dealing with having his butt handed to him by Venom within seconds after the start of the battle. A conversion will commence which has Black Panther flashing back to how he was discovered by Nick Fury or SHIELD or whoever and having Hawkeye tell him that being an Ultimate has it's share of lumps and rewards as well.
5. Venom has very much undergone a major power-up (which I'm sure will be revealed many issues down the line) and no longer has the need of a human host (as being nearly chopped in half didn't phase him). The Ultimate Spider-Man writers have stated that Venom and Carnage will return in a early 2008 storyline that deals with what happened just before v3 started.[/spoiler]
- CrimsonQuill
Quote from: crimsonquill on December 07, 2007, 04:46:05 PM
Note: The writers have said that Ultimates 3 takes place a year or so after Ultimate Power ends.. and this storyline ties into the upcoming "Ultimatium" event that somehow shows that the 616 Universe and Ultimate Universe are tied to each other and after all of the dimensional traveling that the Fantastic Four and The Ultimates have done is causing them to crumble into each other.
Wow! I remember years ago numerous writers and editors including JoeQ stated that they would never cross the two universes. They were fairly adamant about this as well. Go figure. <_<
it's JQ...why does that really surprise you? :P ALthough this is the first time I've heard that the ultimate/616 universe were crossing paths beyond non-important cameos.
click (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=11387) <----here's an article you might wanna check out for more info about ultimates 3 and Ultimatum
:spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler:
After reading the issue, I feel like I can address you better. Hawkeye took on a new costume because of everything he's been through. It was referenced how hawkeye stopped being Clint in the actual issue. If you mean the design alone...ask the artist. Thor, wasp, Wanda, etc. new costumes I'm expecting to be answered down the line. Especially Wanda's considering it looks like her old 616 costume only...more revealing. Black Panther, someone cared about him as he was brought up at least twice. Jan, thor, and valkrie didn't care. Captain wasn't there and he's brooding right now. I'm not sure why you're confused about Venom vs. Thor. It wasn't even really a fight. Venom got him from behind (as referenced by dialog) and we don't really know *what* happened before hand. Afterwards, Thor quickly put him in his place so it's not like Venom owned him or anything.
Also, iirc, ultimate venom is stronger than 616 venom, but I wouldn't rule out that venom may have been powered up a bit in this arc. We'll see, no?
Ok, how come nobody is bringing up the two things that almost offended even me;
1. The obvious sex between Black Widow and Tony all over the tv screens. I mean, imagination was not needed at all to understand what they were doing.
2. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were IN love. Not love each other like a normal brother and sister. In love with each other in the bad way. Eww...
Thanoson,
Ultimates is more teenage/adult oriented than a typical comic. That's kinda what they were shooting for. It shocked me that they got away with that much, but it's not something I focused on either.
Wanda and Quicksilver isn't a surprise since that's how they *always* been. Since their early appearances in Xmen to all of the ultimate arcs, so that shouldn't really surprise you either. The only time Wanda cared about someone else (cyclops), quicksilver instantly took on the jealous role. SO basically, all Loeb did was make it *more* apparent than it already apparently was.
I read a description of Ultimates 3 as coming off like Ultimate Ultimates, and I think that's pretty spot on. Colour me unimpressed, at least with that first issue.
Quote from: Previsionary on December 07, 2007, 06:04:35 PM
it's JQ...why does that really surprise you?
It really does though. It was said that it would defeat the purpose of the ultimate line which is intended for newer readers without all the continuity baggage(but there is plenty now.) I think a few Marvel heads simplified their opinions on a crossover into a few simple words like: stupid, idiotic, moronic. There were a few more choice words and phrases but I won't place them here.
I could really care less, just as long as they leave ultimate spidey alone.
About the Wanda/Pietro and Tony/Widow tape, I really think this is Loeb trying to match and beat what Miller did on the other two Ultimate runs because it felt a bit forced or just way too extreme. Miller did have some extreme moments in his run as well but I felt they were more subtle to the story and not the actual story. Like when the Hulk expresses how he wants to reproduce with Betty while rampaging in New York. Or, when Black Widow explains how her new surgically "enhanced" chest is itching.
Despite this books flaws, it is interesting, and I'll be sticking with it. ^_^
I agree that it'd defeat the purpose, but I can't flip out on a rumor that I haven't seen anywhere else yet...so...I'll form thoughts about ultimates/616 slowly merging later. Though, it would conveniently explain away some writers' errors in certain books that happen to be very close to 616.
Also, I never understood the continuity thing. Anything that has more than one book will have a continuity baggage for new readers, so that was never a realistic goal, imo. It got even worse when they started doing those team up books and crossovers. I think their original goal was to toss out the continuity of the original universe, but they never had a plan for all the continuity problems that would pop up for the mainline ultimate universe, though, a good "this is what happened so far..." book would aid with that.
U3 didn't feel like the same characters I came to love, in fact this felt more like the Marvel Mangaverse than the Ultimate Universe.
I wanna know why Cap's now being played by a max sized tanker from COH o_O
Quote from: Previsionary on December 08, 2007, 09:21:30 AM
I agree that it'd defeat the purpose, but I can't flip out on a rumor that I haven't seen anywhere else yet...so...I'll form thoughts about ultimates/616 slowly merging later. Though, it would conveniently explain away some writers' errors in certain books that happen to be very close to 616.
I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that they'll be re-tooling the Ultimate universe soon (either by dissolving it entirely or contracting the line and making it more of a niche product-- more minis and less on-goings maybe?). Six years ago, the idea of the Ultimate Marvel Universe was a great way to revive interest in the then-flagging fortunes of many of the 616 characters (I was never interested in the Avengers, not even when one of my favourite writers, Larry Hama, took over the book in the late 1980s/early 1990s and the
Ultimates was the first incarnation of the Avengers that I actually liked). Now that the 616 universe is back in the forefront of readers' and marketers' minds and are more profitable than they were a few years ago, the Ultimate imprint only serves to dilute the properties.
the art was interesting but the colouring really let it down and made a lot of pages hard to look at.
i knew it was always joked that old wanda and petrio were a bit fmessed up but it was still a serious what the hell moment
about the death
[SPOILER] i'm betting on the whole magneto angle, seems to be the most logical.
though it still may be a bit more of a inside job.
what i'm surprised about is no one hasnt mentioned it yet. the doc at the end if thats not thor its a hell of a red herring[/SPOILER]
I did notice that. I'm thinking Wanda did something. Notice she was casting something in the background.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on December 08, 2007, 11:20:48 AM
U3 didn't feel like the same characters I came to love, in fact this felt more like the Marvel Mangaverse than the Ultimate Universe.
And there it is. Thanks for putting that into words. It REALLY did not feel like the Ultimates from the past two volumes. I guess that's why there are so many questions.
Previsionary: Of course I'm confused about Thor vs. Venom.... in the regulr Marvel universe, if Venom hit Thor from behind, Thor wouldn't budge. Thor would then hit Venom once... fight over. This Venome knocked Thor through a wall and knocked Thor out of the fight for more than a page. Powered up indeed.
- Hawkeye's new look is just... bad. Bullseye's costume combined with Sand's... eh.
- Wasp's costume to protect her identity... isn't her identity public? I mean, she has run around in public for volumes one and two with no mask using her powers.
- Thor's hammer? Couldn't we at least maintain one difference between Thor and Ultimate Thor?
- Caring about Black Panther? Yeah, they mentioned it, and that's about it. Wasn't that conversation about the fight on the next day? "I'll go look for him" a day later doesn't show a lot of concern.
It just doesn't feel like the Ultimates anymore. And I REALLY want to like tyhis book because I enjoyed the other two volumes. The question that I keep returning to is, "Did Loeb read the first two volumes?"
Part of the problem may just be that the book started with a bunch of questions rather than answers...and Loeb's writing style. I dunno, you should at least give it a book or 2 to *attempt* to explain that stuff to you before taking a definite stance.
Quote from: Mowgli on December 10, 2007, 12:49:26 PM
Previsionary: Of course I'm confused about Thor vs. Venom.... in the regulr Marvel universe, if Venom hit Thor from behind, Thor wouldn't budge. Thor would then hit Venom once... fight over. This Venome knocked Thor through a wall and knocked Thor out of the fight for more than a page. Powered up indeed.
Um...we're in the ultimate universe where something like Venom beating up thor in an event
we did not see at all shouldn't be all that questioned unless it was revealed later on down the line to be extremely stupid. Ultimate venom is much stronger than 616 venom so you probably shouldnt be comparing them to begin with. That's one of the problems with the ultimate universe now so a few changes here and there is good for them. This is the same venom than can toss cars with very little effort, jump as high as hulk, and swing around town using his tendrils (see ultimate spider-man game which was in continuity at one point).
Point being, I'm sure we've all seen thor beaten/thrown about by worse than venom WHILE he was on guard, so I really dont think that it's all that hard to believe that, within the right circumstances [momentum, element of surprise, etc.], venom knocked thor through a simple brick wall. Now if it was say...a steel or adamantium wall, I would question it more. Also, iirc, thor wasn't even hurt by it so...yeah.
Quote from: Mowgli on December 10, 2007, 12:49:26 PM
- Caring about Black Panther? Yeah, they mentioned it, and that's about it. Wasn't that conversation about the fight on the next day? "I'll go look for him" a day later doesn't show a lot of concern.
Before the battle there is a banner that says
"Tony Stark's Mansion, Last night..." and while Venom is melting into a pile of smoking goo after being stuck by Thor's lightning strike - Hawkeye takes a few shots at the goo with his gun and gets into a fight with Wasp where he ends the discussion with "@#$%, I'm Going To See If I Can Find The Panther". That whole thing takes place within just 5 minutes time and the next page has a banner that says
"Today" where Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver runs into Capt. outside their apartment.
Maybe it's the artist that made the story hard to follow... *scratches head*
- CrimsonQuill
Previsionary: I guess I just assumed since the writing is trying so hard to make Thor so much like his regular Marvel universe alter-ego, they would do the same with Venom. I haven't read any Ultimate Spider-Man, so I wouldn't know if he had been powered up. BTW- why are you referring to the regular Marvel universe as 616? I don't recognize that term.
CrimsonQuill; I checked and you are right. I guess it was the stortytelling, but it was after the fight when Hawkeye said he would go look. I wish they would stop with the heavy digital painting over Madueria's work. He can draw just fine without all of that. I think all the darker tones may not be helping his work.
I refer to it as 616 because that's the earth number that was given to the main universe since the early 80s (by the UK branch). It also appears in one of those guide books marvel regularly releases as well as a few eXiles comics (reality time hoppers). That and I see it so much on message boards (here included before the board wipe) that I subconsciously do it from time to time. *shrugs*
Wow.
I'm giving it one more issue to stop being a 616 comic before I stop buying it.
Quote from: Mowgli on December 10, 2007, 03:20:26 PM
BTW- why are you referring to the regular Marvel universe as 616? I don't recognize that term.
It popped up in Marvel UK's Captain Britain comics. There's a whole corps of Captain Britains in various realities, and they keep track of who's who by numbering the dimensions they come from. Ours is Earth 616 (making him Captain Britain 616), and that's the only descriptive we've ever gotten (apart from "the main universe"), so it's the one the fanboys use.
Quote from: captainspud on January 24, 2008, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Mowgli on December 10, 2007, 03:20:26 PM
BTW- why are you referring to the regular Marvel universe as 616? I don't recognize that term.
It popped up in Marvel UK's Captain Britain comics. There's a whole corps of Captain Britains in various realities, and they keep track of who's who by numbering the dimensions they come from. Ours is Earth 616 (making him Captain Britain 616), and that's the only descriptive we've ever gotten (apart from "the main universe"), so it's the one the fanboys use.
The 616 was chosen based off some date. But I'd have to look it up to give specifics. If you've ever read Exiles or one of the handouts they started giving all the other universes numbers too and they're based on the same date format as well.
Wasn't 616 an in-joke referring to Marvel's old address number?
And Ultimates 3 has been pretty lousy so far. More than that really as it's changed some characters for the worse, which is a crime more tragic than just telling a bad story (or a story badly).
Quote from: Renegade on January 24, 2008, 10:04:29 PM
Wasn't 616 an in-joke referring to Marvel's old address number?
That's ultimately (ha ha!) where the number came from according to some people, although David Thorpe, Alan Davis, and Alan Moore (the Marvel UK guys generally credited with coining the term) insist that it was just a random number with no real significance.
Quote from: Renegade on January 24, 2008, 10:04:29 PM
And Ultimates 3 has been pretty lousy so far. More than that really as it's changed some characters for the worse, which is a crime more tragic than just telling a bad story (or a story badly).
I think how bad the writing is in the first two issues is magnified by how conventional it all seems when compared the scope and writing of the first
Ultimates mini-series. By itself, it reads like a standard superhero tale, and there's nothing inherently wrong about that, but when you consider how different
Ultimates is supposed to be from your standard Marvel superheroics, it does seem like Loeb's starting off on the wrong foot (although the argument can be made that the end of
Ultimates 2 basically forced this type of change in the approach).
Well, in my opinion, issue #2 was more of the same that we got in #1. It's incoherent, not really answering any of the questions that it has brought up. Plot's pretty similar to #1 as well.
-Group in mansion- they get attacked- they fight the invader(s)- Tony's drunk- Tho's hanging out with some unexplained fan girl with asgardian powers- Cap's ticked about... something- Hawkeye acts like a jerk.
I didn't give a spoiler alert there because it's a summary that fits #1 and #2. Now the next section may have spoilers for issue #2.
-On a different note from the first issue, Hawkeye does run around looking for Black Panther and decides to arbitrarily start shooting at Spider-Man, because the Ultimates were attacked by Venom??!!?? Bwu-huh?
-Thor explains that he was just "pretending" to speak with normal grammar and actually speaks in Shakespearian verse. Um, so was he pretending when he spoke to Volstagg in the club? Was Volstagg also prentending to do the same when he spoke back? Was Loki also pretending, before and after he was defeated?
-Thor's hammer is now drawn just like the 616 hammer- and it seems Tony has donned the 1980's armor again... what's ultimate about them again?
I'm not writing off the book just yet. Perhaps there will be some miraculous bit of writing coming soon that will explain everything and make the writer's choices make more sense. But for now.... I'm just disppointed.
I really liked the Ultimates. Afghan Ant said it best: "U3 didn't feel like the same characters I came to love, in fact this felt more like the Marvel Mangaverse than the Ultimate Universe."
Yeah, pretty much.
I can't really say anything positive about issue 2, dialogue/plot wise, since it gave me headaches. I don't really see anything getting much better and this worries me for the ultimate verse since Loeb is taking over 2 of the core books to tie it into ultimatum. I'll direct you all to Ultimate Power and how...blah it was as my source as to why I don't want Loeb doing another event for a universe that's already crumbling fast.
Wow the more I hear about this the less I like it.
Although I do like Mad's art from previews. Some cool designs, though not necessarily the right direction for Ultimates.
I've written this one off. Loeb's writing rarely works for me, and this is just a mess. It doesn't make a lick of sense or seem to flow out of the other Ultimates series, so I'm done.
Quote from: Talavar on January 26, 2008, 11:06:03 AM
I've written this one off. Loeb's writing rarely works for me, and this is just a mess. It doesn't make a lick of sense or seem to flow out of the other Ultimates series, so I'm done.
I'm with you. I knew it wasn't going to be as great as the previous two volumes, but I wasn't expecting it to be bad either.
You would figure that maybe Ultimatium somehow tied into both the 616 and Ultimate worlds being connected together... but having the start of Volume 3 literally revamping heroes into their 616 counterpart without explanation (especially Iron Man and Thor) makes the first time reader wonder if he picked up a miscovered comic. And I'm getting more confused with each issue because the writer is now contradicting what the first two volumes already established (not to mension totally stereotyping the characters).
And why would Spider-Man be responsible for Venom attacking someone else?!.. It's not like Webhead has him on a leash or anything.
Quote from: Mowgli on January 25, 2008, 12:50:02 PM
Thor's hanging out with some unexplained fan girl with asgardian powers
Actually, That's Valkyrie of The Defenders that showed up briefly in a cameo or two when Hank Pym was kicked off The Ultimates. She was just a blonde slut in a revealing outfit that was a huge fan of Thor. I'm assuming that somewhere in between Volume Two and Three that Thor had met her and taken her on a date to Asgard to find her new sword so that she can hang with him and not be totally out of her league.
- CrimsonQuill
If any of you are feeling brave to see previews of ultimates 3 #3 before it hits shelves...
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12970 -- read your poison.
what gets me is venom throws black panther 10 blocks and nobody but hawkeye cares.i sure miss the george perez/ kurt busiek avengers days.they captured the spirit of the avengers.
Quote from: herodad1 on February 13, 2008, 10:09:41 AM
what gets me is venom throws black panther 10 blocks and nobody but hawkeye cares.i sure miss the george perez/ kurt busiek avengers days.they captured the spirit of the avengers.
To be fair to Loeb, the Ultimates aren't the Avengers despite his inability to see that. Loeb set them up vol 3 as if it was the Avengers which disappointed Ultimates fans and forced a bunch of anime/manga designs and throw in a bunch of sort of obscene things to remind us "oh yeah this is Ultimates because Hank overdosed, Janet has bulimia, and Cap is an @$$".
I hate you Loeb. I hate you and your Ultimate Manga Avengers!
What's most disappointing to me, even beyond the fact that my favourite series-of-series is now ruined, is that this is what Joe Mad's grand comeback amounted to.
I've been a huge Joe Mad fan since, basically, forever. The first comic I bought for myself from an issue of UXM during the Onslaught crossover, and it was just fantastic. I'd been drawing all my life, but I'd been doing mostly generic monsters up to that point (I was like... what... 10? 12?). Joe Mad's art is what single-handedly made me a comic lover; he's the reason I haven't drawn anything but superheroes for like a decade and a half. I learned to draw human beings by tracing UXM on a lightbox. Granted, super-distorted-anime isn't exactly the best starting point for an artist, but hey. I liked it.
My man-crush continued when he jumped to his own book. Battle Chasers was just a derivative stack of clichés, but it didn't matter. He drew those clichés in a way that I liked. The comic was terrible, but I loved it anyway. And then... yeah. The delays. First there was a one-month gap. Then a three-month gap. The time between the sixth and seventh issues? Fourteen months.
And what were the delays for? Wizard informed me, during a tour of his studio, that the delays were because Joe had recently acquired a Playstation, and was busy playing Final Fantasy 7. I was heartbroken. I was like 14 years old, and I just didn't understand. I thought when people grew up and had real jobs, they stopped farting around with video games to the extent that they had no time to work for over a year. I mean, sure. I did that, but I was 14! Joe was a grown-up, he's supposed to know better.
And with that, I just kinda stopped caring. He didn't care about us, so why care about him? I went on with my life; I guess he ran out of money at some point, cuz apparently he worked on designs for three games that never actually got made. He tossed together some EGM covers every once in a while. That's about it.
I still like Joe Mad's art, but I'd lost most of my respect for the man holding the pencil. When I heard he was coming back and doing Ultimates 3, I was genuinely hopeful. As before, I was willing to completely ignore the total mismatch between his style and the Ultimates universe; I just wanted to see more of his drawings.
And then... I dunno. I'm just not seeing it. This is the guy who gave us all those fantastic AoA costumes, and the best he can do is 616 transfers and a comically bad Hawkeye outfit? And what's with the lack of inks? The style that's emerged where the penciller shades the drawing and the colours are laid on top actually has a fairly specific purpose-- it's supposed to increase the realism of an already realistic drawing style. And I don't think anybody's ever accused Joe Mad of drawing realistically.
I was hoping that perhaps he'd grown up a bit and was ready to take on the (comparatively) more serious Ultimates line, but everything I've seen tells me that he's still got the same maturity level I questioned when I was 14. He wants to go inkless because it's a fad; and his costume designs show that he fundamentally does not understand the Ultimates universe.
So, yeah. I think I'm done with Joe Mad. He was fun when I was 10, and I was totally ready to give him a second shot, but I think I've basically just outgrown him. He's still mentally in same place as he was a decade ago. He's one of the most talented artists I've ever seen, but his lack of maturity is showing up in his work.
Sigh... I feel like I need a drink.
And I don't drink.
:(
Quote from: AfghanAnt on February 13, 2008, 10:48:46 AM
I hate you Loeb. I hate you and your Ultimate Manga Avengers!
Heh, awesome. I second the sentiment!
Quote from: Previsionary on February 12, 2008, 11:20:10 PM
If any of you are feeling brave to see previews of ultimates 3 #3 before it hits shelves...
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12970 -- read your poison.
i hate you prev. i read every page of that preview. gawdf its awful, i just kept reading to see how low it could go. i think wolvewrines last line was the lowest point......
it's not my fault marvel hired loeb and loeb keeps writing bad characters! From what I saw around certain message boards, people think Loeb wrote ultimate wolverine correctly. I don't happen to agree, but...*shrugs*.
Sidenote, does Hawkeye have 2 or 3 kids? I want to say wolvie's line is an error.
it is an error, he had 3 kids.
now what i don't get is that i used to LOVE Loeb's work, i think his Batman GN's are on par with Year one (Long hallowe'en in particular) and didn't he write Daredevil:Yellow too? that one was great as well.
Quote from: captainspud on February 13, 2008, 01:19:17 PMWhat's most disappointing to me, even beyond the fact that my favourite series-of-series is now ruined, is that this is what Joe Mad's grand comeback amounted to...
<snip!>
... I was hoping that perhaps he'd grown up a bit and was ready to take on the (comparatively) more serious Ultimates line, but everything I've seen tells me that he's still got the same maturity level I questioned when I was 14...
<snip!>
... So, yeah. I think I'm done with Joe Mad. He was fun when I was 10, and I was totally ready to give him a second shot, but I think I've basically just outgrown him. He's still mentally in same place as he was a decade ago.
This really sums up how I feel about many of the "hot" artists I used to idolize when I was a kid. I was all over Jim Lee, Whilce Portacio, and Marc Silverstri (the original Homage Studios pencilers) back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. But the thing that I noticed was, they never seemed to significantly improve their craft as time went on. Sure, they render more detail and don't flub basic anatomy as much these days, but the fundamental weaknesses of their panel-to-panel work is still there.
Take a cover from Lee's 1990s
WildCATs comics (http://comicartcommunity.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=24957) and put it side-by-side with a random page from the recent failed re-launch that was
WildCATs #1 from a couple of years ago (http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Oct06/previews/Wildcats_01p02_03.jpg)... they could have been drawn within a couple of weeks of each other.
Compare that with say, former
WildCATs penciler Travis Charest, whose clumsy and derivative early work (http://www.bicworks.com/graphics/conv/page-Charest1.jpg) looks nothing like the stuff he's doing now (http://www.travischarestgallery.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=image&id=370).
Even Brandon Peterson, one of the weakest artists to follow-up Portacio's run on
Uncanny X-Men (as evidenced by this decidedly plain-looking cover from 1992 (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=97792366288%20292)) has grown so much artistically in the decade-and-a-half since (check out his work on
Chimera (http://www.brandonpeterson.com/wordpress/?page_id=26). By way of contrast, Portacio, Silvestri, and Lee's development as comic book artists seems to have ground to a halt. I still like their early work and what it represented in terms of a paradigm shift in comic book art, but I just don't derive any measure of awe or enjoyment from the stuff they do now.
I noticed the same thing happening with Joe Madureira. I read
Ultimates 3 #1 and what really stood out to me, besides the mediocre writing, was that Mad still drew as if he was stuck in a 1990s time-warp. I still like his exaggerated, off-model take on the human form, but there were a lot of flashy, offset panels with no storytelling logic (violating fundamental principles of sequential storytelling). Those were excellent back then, and I'm sure they still hold a certain naive charm for most of us who enjoyed the comics of that era, but outside of that context, it was just one terribly-laid out comic book that could have used a more professional layout/storyboard artist.
Quote from: zuludelta on February 14, 2008, 01:50:58 PM
I still like their early work and what it represented in terms of a paradigm shift in comic book art, but I just don't derive any measure of awe or enjoyment from the stuff they do now.
hear hear! however guys still going from the 70's and 80's like chaykin, JR JR and the kubert brothers have constantly been getting better.
Well...I read a summary and some reviews of ultimates 3 (one thing this book has going for it...it comes out more regularly than the other two volumes) and...
[spoiler]more pietro/wanda/magneto/wolverine backstory and the team finally does something other than stand around.[/spoiler]
Black panther seems to have finally landed and is actually on a team. Wolverine seems to know who he is or w/e. Um...Savage land origins are revealed and it's kinda lame (only because it reminds me of why I don't like certain characters)...and...that's about it. Oh...Tony's odd behavior is finally addressed...
I walked into the comic store yesterday to pick up my books. My eyes vaguely pass by Ultimates 3 when I'm reaching for Umbrella Academy. I ask the owner while flipping through UA, "So, did Ultimates 3 get any better?"
"Take a look, and you tell me."
I reach for it, and my hand stops.
"There's... there's a dinosaur on the cover."
:blink:
"I guess that does kinda answer my question."
Yep...savage land origins were told in ultimates instead of ultimate x-men...for some reason. I don't think the main plot has even been clearly defined yet as the subplots seem more interesting and get more play.
Well, I decided to pick it up. What a colorful "love" scene that's depicted between Wolverine and [spoiler]Magneto's wife[/spoiler]
I kind of liked Barton telling Janet and Cap to go (expletive) themselves. I snickered. ^_^
Everything else was garbage, I'm not even remotely interested on where Wolverine knows Black Panther from, as he hinted at it.
One cool thing was the last page. It's just a really nice piece of art. Other then that, this book is just over-priced toilet paper.
Matt Fraction or Ed Brubaker would have been a better choice for Ultimates 3. Maybe Marvel will keep them in mind for volume 4.
Quote from: murs47 on February 21, 2008, 02:10:53 PM
Matt Fraction or Ed Brubaker would have been a better choice for Ultimates 3. Maybe Marvel will keep them in mind for volume 4.
Actually the original plan for volume 4 was Loeb writing with Ed McGuiness on art. I'm pretty sure this plan was ditched for Ultimatum.
Just saw Ultimates 3.3 and needless to say I'm only reading it now to punish myself. This issue was probably the most insulting story wise and the most offensive character assassination I've ever read.
So... think they'll let the series continue to the end? This can't be selling well.
There are people that actually like this (even when compared to volumes 1 and 2) and, iirc, it's been said to be selling in the top 10 (#1 even?) everytime it was released...
That is disgusting.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on February 26, 2008, 01:20:53 PM
Just saw Ultimates 3.3 and needless to say I'm only reading it now to punish myself. This issue was probably the most insulting story wise and the most offensive character assassination I've ever read.
See, now I almost want to read it just to see how bad it is. Almost.
Quote from: Previsionary on February 26, 2008, 01:47:42 PM
There are people that actually like this (even when compared to volumes 1 and 2) and, iirc, it's been said to be selling in the top 10 (#1 even?) everytime it was released...
People read Rob Liefield's Youngblood too.
Volume 1 and 2 were so good.... why does this one have to suck so bad?
I just read through the first few issues .... poor on every level. Even the art is hamstrung by average costume/character designs.
It has a weird, deliberate badness akin to All-Star Batman & Robin.
there are elements of this book that are holding my interest, not many mind you. the best way i can describe the book is a car accident, you dont want to stare but you can't look away
I know mowgli or someone usually bumps this book, but reading some reviews and...issue 5 will have A LOT to tie up and make sense of...A LOT is not even a big enough word for what Loeb will have to explain. I'll point out a few problems I had just from the reviews alone:
:spoiler: :spoiler:
1. Um, Juggernaut is on the brotherhood? Loeb, dude's at most dead and at least missing from action since the rogue/gambit adventure.
2. ROBOTS?! REALLY?! WTEFF!
3. So, you gonna get back to QS and SW anytime soon and I'm just gonna ignore Hank and Janet for now
4. Pyro...brotherhood? Loeb, do you know he's currently on the x-men and getting along with everyone? You know he's not evil and a potential rapist (according to reviews), right? He's a good guy...literally...a good guy.
5. So...Thor changed hammers on a whim?
6. Maybe I'm forgetting something or whatever, but why are you shoving Savage land history and characters into an avengers-lite book?
7 *explodes*
Now, I eagerly await any actual feedback on this issue until I browse it somewhere since I refuse to buy it at this point. I now know for sure I won't invest in yet another Loeb 'color' book even if it is Cap related.
Gonna bump this to see if anyone bought it, have any thoughts, or threatened loeb yet. I'll say the art finally looked brighter.
What basically happened:
[spoiler]-Some members of the ultimates are found out to be robots created by Hank Pym. Wanda was attracted to one and it was attracted back (ultimates 2).
-tony's sex tape was leaked by the robots because they knew tony would go to alcohol (to keep him from noticing the robots).
-Venom robot was created to kidnap Wanda to save her from whatever was to come. Because of a technical difficulty, Venom melted when he was defeated.
-the robots drugged Hank
-the robot that fell in love with Wanda shot her because he knew he would never have her
-Wanda was killed to incite the Human/Mutant war (Ultimatum)
-Captain America is Panther to NO ONES surprise (readers...not the characters)
-Pyro is still an evil rapist for some reason...continuity isn't loeb's strong point this year. Heroes...watch out.
-Valkryie got her powers from Thor because of some unknown deal. She then kills one of her attempted rapists and cuts off pyro's hands...
-Hulk-esque Thor vs. Magneto...it's blah
-after the messy, not very clear battle, Hawkeye goes super emo and tries to shoot Magneto. Quicksilver is shot and killed.
-Magneto is upset and vows to make everyone pay
-it's revealed dr. doom is behind ultron and the other robots.[/spoiler]
Seriously, this book was all over the place. ALL. OVER. THE. PLACE. Loeb finally got to explaining what was going on...4 issues ago...8 months ago...but he ripped apart continuity to do it and his writing was beyond subpar. I don't feel like anything was actually resolved here except the questions raised in issue 1...then he twists the plot at the end. Wow. Well...hopefully the ultimate verse will be restructured after this...and i get to look forward to more continuity holes and pointless deaths.
Wow that sounds horrible. Simply horrible. I think Loeb single handily ruined the Ultimate universe.
So is Hank dead or what? Actually whats the total bodycount going into Ultimatum?
Luckily we'll be getting Ultimate Avengers by Miller, and if it's anything like Ultimates volume 1 and 2 then it'll be awesome.
No...Hank survived. He was instrumental in saving tony, Janet, and the ultimates in general...in Ant man gear. Um...since i dont remember all the issues and I only read...2? 3? Somewhere around 4-5.
Wanda, Quicksilver, some rapist mutant, possibly Pyro (though he's an X-man...), bunch of robots, Hawkeye shot Sabretooth A LOT...don't know his outcome.
So yeah...Venom being able to take out Thor, Venom melting, Thor's speech (kinda), his hammer (kinda), BP mystery, sex tape, tony's alcoholism/OOC behavior, the plot...all came from this single issue....all in a rush. Issues 2-4 basically weren't needed, imo. :P
Yeah, I caught the final issue myself and still making this face :blink: after reading it like 5 times thus far... and then going :banghead: after rereading all five issues. I so believe that Miller is begging to come back after Ultimatium finishes wreaking the Ultimate Universe so he can help rebuild that world and remind the editors what their job is before starting Ultimate Avengers.
And I also noticed one major nitpick not already talked about that made me go.. WTF?!...
[spoiler]Magneto catches (he is actually holding it in a panel) Thor's classic hammer which is technically Odin enchanted like the 616 version (but it's not even made of metal which would explain how he could stop it from hitting him) and then Thor is forced by Valkyre to retreat and leave it behind but she promises they will come back for it later. Wha?!?! I'm already confused about Thor looking like the 616 version already but having robo-Thor show up looking like his old Ultimate self and then still not explaining what happened between vol 2 and 3 with him besides dating Valkyre and giving her powers.[/spoiler]
Crimsonquill: They don't explain anything else... so why start now? I mean, Cap was pretending to be Panther and even gets asked why and if Panther was ever real.... but no one answers any of that meaningless plot diversion. I think Loeb has been using beer comercials to create his own M.O.... "Why ask why?"
It ended as badly as it started... and that's setting the bar pretty high. Well, at least he's consistant. :(
That's just sad. I really like Loeb's writing.
-MJB
Bump again.
Ultimate Cap annual came out this week, so I'll just put this here for anyone that has any interest.
Before I begin...I will point out that there IS an ultimate T'challa (Ultimate Origins #5):
- the book opens with "The Trial of the Panther" which explains the origins of the true Black panther.
- T'challa is defeated and loses a lot of blood during the trial. He wasn't meant for it...his brother was.
- T'chaka reaches outside of Wakanda for help with his son which is against the law
- T'challa is sent over to weapon X (part of Origins fits in here)
- This means "Black Panther" was made by Weapon X...more or less.
- This explains why Capt never spoke as BP...his (BP's) vocal chords were damaged during the "Trials..."
Next story:
This takes place before Ultimates 3 and before Ultimate Fury ends up in Squadron Supreme.
- Capt and T'challa battle. This is just training and it has lasted for over three hours. Capt wins in the end before the training is called off.
- Fury wants Panther on the team. Capt doesn't want to make that choice, but Fury asks him to be Panther's mentor.
- During an actual mission, BP comes up against thunderball. BP easily beats him and finally shows Steve his neck scarring.
- BP is definitely a mutant in this continuity and has claws similar to Wolverine (see weapon X statement/Origins)
- We see Tony and Capt talking about Hank Pym being back on the team...kinda
- BP reveals that he misses his father and tells (well...types) that Fury won't let him go home
- Capt tells Fury that BP is ready to join the team and Fury says that Janet will just take his, Capt's, word (we're at the beginning of Ultimates 3 now).
- Capt talks to Jan (we also learn Thor suggested Valkyrie to Jan as well).
- Capt replaces BP and has Tony make him an outfit to simulate BP's abilities. He does this so T'challa can go home.
And that's pretty much it. Everything that Loeb should have explained in Ultimates 3 which was plotless...was explained in an Annual that was basically actionless. Balance is something Loeb lacks these days.