It gave Steve peak human performance. Luke Cage's treatments gave him Titanium hard skin and enough strength to lift 25 tons. Simon William's experiment gave him immortality, bulletproof skin and enough strength to lift a tank like you would a cup of coffee. Robert Reynold's serum that he drank turned him into a god. I understand that the super soldier serum was created in WW2 but still, couldn't they enhance Steve, make him a real super soldier? I prefer Ultimate Cap anyway by far. At least he is a metahuman.
The Super Soldier serum did more than give Cap peak human performance (depending on the writer!). Of course, you'd have to define what 'peak human performance' is, which is not easy to do.
For one thing, it allowed him to survive being frozen all those years. Yes, people have been revived after being sort-of frozen. But not popsicle frozen and not for decades.
I'm sure others more versed in Cap lore can come up with other specific examples. But I would say that both his perceptions and his reflexes were heightened to what I would call superhuman levels of precision and reaction time. Granted, he's no Quicksilver, but nobody with anything remotely near human reactions can beat Cap. I might even argue that there was something of a mental boost as well, considering how easily he was able to reason out tactical situations.
You also have to remember that the Super Soldier serum that Cap took is different from what everybody else took later on.
Yes. Nobody else was bombarded with "Vita Rays" (whatever the hell they are) either. It could be that professor Erskine's (sp) recipie affected people randomly, or that the later attempts to reproduce the process were less than successful.
about how many times stronger is captain america?in the handbook he can military press 800lbs and ive seen him bench pressing 1200-1250 lbs.in one avengers issue he was curling( reps) 500 lbs. if you start doing the math,say you are 10 times stronger.everything you can normally lift now is multiplied 10 times.its cool to think about.
His strength boost while impressive to normal humans is nothing compared to other humans that became metahumans by ingesting serums or undergoing trials/experiments. People like Luke Cage for example would not be impressed with Steve benching 1200lbs or curling 500lbs. Luke could do that with his index finger. But I have to remember that the serum was created in WW2 and in that time period, Steve's transformation did make him a super soldier. In today's age with metahumans everywhere, Steve is not so impressive.
Captain America is like Batman... at the upper limit of human capacity (stronger and faster than Bats but not as smart or well trained) but honestly no match for a super powered character unless you want to use some serious deus ex machina to get him to win. Then again cap does have his shield and you can often say that extremely good strenght + shield can knock out mid level villains.
So yeah, so far as super serums goes it's not the best stuff on the market but it sure beats the time Batman spent doped up on Venom or Nick Furies stuff that just keeps you young but that's it.
yet despite his lack of power all the other more powerful heroes still look up to him and would dread having to go toe to toe with him.ive got a question about strength.how did luke cage go from a 3 ton limit to 25 tons?
The Bendis effect, a little known consequence of being a favoured character by an over-indulged writer.
"It gave Steve peak human performance. Luke Cage's treatments gave him Titanium hard skin and enough strength to lift 25 tons. Simon William's experiment gave him immortality, bulletproof skin and enough strength to lift a tank like you would a cup of coffee. Robert Reynold's serum that he drank turned him into a god."
I think the fact that Cap could still kick the crap out of Luke Cage and Simon Williams by using a combination of his attributes instead of just brute force is what makes him super.
"I understand that the super soldier serum was created in WW2 but still, couldn't they enhance Steve, make him a real super soldier?"
Obviously not. Also, Superman vs The Nazi's would have been a pretty boring comic.
"I prefer Ultimate Cap anyway by far. At least he is a metahuman."
Meh ... different strokes for different folks. You must think Batman, The Punisher, etc are pretty lame too, which is a shame...
"I think the fact that Cap could still kick the crap out of Luke Cage and Simon Williams by using a combination of his attributes instead of just brute force is what makes him super."
You seriously think Cap could beat Luke? Luke Cage? How is he going to beat a guy who has Titanium hard skin and a 25 ton strength range? His shield will not hurt him, his fists and feet will not hurt him and even if he manages to drop tons of steel beams on top of him, that still will not hurt him. Luke may not be a trained soldier but he is a experienced street fighter and knows how to win fights. No way could Cap take Luke.
"Meh ... different strokes for different folks. You must think Batman, The Punisher, etc are pretty lame too, which is a shame..."
I actually like Bats and Frank. I don't think they are lame at all. I mostly prefer Ultimate Cap not because he is a metahuman but because he isn't afraid to kill. I think that it is silly for a super soldier to be against using firearms like 616 Cap is. Ultimate Cap used a flame thrower to torch Thor and a tank to fight Hulk and killed the Middle Eastern super soldier with his own blade, now that's a super soldier!
Quote from: captmorgan72 on June 25, 2008, 04:07:33 AM
"I think the fact that Cap could still kick the crap out of Luke Cage and Simon Williams by using a combination of his attributes instead of just brute force is what makes him super."
You seriously think Cap could beat Luke? Luke Cage? How is he going to beat a guy who has Titanium hard skin and a 25 ton strength range? His shield will not hurt him, his fists and feet will not hurt him and even if he manages to drop tons of steel beams on top of him, that still will not hurt him. Luke may not be a trained soldier but he is a experienced street fighter and knows how to win fights. No way could Cap take Luke.
When it comes to experience and hand to hand combat skill, Cap would have a significant edge over Cage. Cap probably wouldn't be able to beat Cage unless it was by wearing him down (one of the benefits of the super soldier formula is that it takes a long time for Cap to get fatigued), but Cage wouldn't be able to beat him in hand to hand combat, either. (Hey, if Cap can toss the Hulk around using Judo.....)
Quote"Meh ... different strokes for different folks. You must think Batman, The Punisher, etc are pretty lame too, which is a shame..."
I actually like Bats and Frank. I don't think they are lame at all. I mostly prefer Ultimate Cap not because he is a metahuman but because he isn't afraid to kill. I think that it is silly for a super soldier to be against using firearms like 616 Cap is. Ultimate Cap used a flame thrower to torch Thor and a tank to fight Hulk and killed the Middle Eastern super soldier with his own blade, now that's a super soldier!
I use the same name for Ultimate Cap that I use for USAgent: A-Hole America. I have no problem with superheroes killing terrorists, but a superhero who packs guns and is willing to kill is not a superhero I want to read about too often. (I have a problem with Bucky packing weapons other than the shield as Cap, but at least he's trying NOT to kill when forced to use them; but I laughed my head off when he fought Crossbones....and stabbed him in the thigh with his knife)
And Cap not killing unless there's no other option is one of the many reasons I like the real Cap. I don't remember the issue #, but back during the run on Cap where Mike Zeck was drawing the comic, there was a story where the terrorist group ULTIMATUM took a bunch of people hostages and one of them was going to kill a woman and Cap had no other choice but to grab an uzi and shoot the scumbag dead, and he wasn't happy about it. (His shield was on the other side of the room at the time, so he couldn't take out the bad guy by tossing it upside his head)
The thing about Captain America - and I do mean the real Cap, Steve Rogers - is that he's not respected just because he's a living legend but because he's also a natural leader and a brilliant strategist; he wasn't trained just to be another guy in a costume who kicks the crap out of the enemy after he was given the super soldier serum. Cap is able to defeat enemies by using his brains as much as his physical abilities and there have been times when other people have been the Avengers' leader but deferred to him due to his expertise. If I was building a superhero team from scratch, Cap is THE guy I'd have as leader; I wouldn't even have a second choice on my list. (Batman doesn't really work well with others, and most of his strategy takes planning - he has a lot of files on people for a reason - while Cap works well on the fly)
I totally understand what you are saying. I just like the fact that Ultimate Cap is a true super soldier. His enhancements are greater and like a true soldier he kills because he is ordered to. Now, that is the interesting part for me anyway. Here we have a hero like Captain America, the symbol of America and the hero of WW2 helping defeat the great evil Third Reich. He returns to modern times and continues being the hero he was in WW2. But now things are very different, the line that separates the bad guys from the good guys is very blurry. This is so true in our times. How do we know who the real enemy is? Because the government tells us so? Is that a good enough reason to kill? It is for our troops isn't it? A soldier is not supposed to question the orders of his/her government. I mean why should they? Isn't the government the good guys? So you are calling Ultimate Cap an A-hole because he is willing to kill what he and his government perceives as terrorists? I wonder what you call our troops in the real world?
Cage can be damaged by admantium weapons ... Cap's shield is made of admantium.
"I just like the fact that Ultimate Cap is a true super soldier. His enhancements are greater and like a true soldier he kills because he is ordered to."
That's disturbing, man. :blink:
You do realise that The Ultimates announced at the end of Volume 2 that they couldn't be held accountable by the US Government anymore, because messing around in international affairs on behalf of the US would only escalate global conflict?
Also, Captain America is deliberately presented as a pretty flawed dude in the way he interacts with "modern times", with the writer (who is Scottish) clearly having fun with Cap's gung-ho attitude and over the top patriotism.
Lastly, Ultimate Cap executes a literally "unarmed" combatant near the end of Ultimates Vol.2. Would you do that if the government told you to do it? Would any real-life soldier do that?
Why is that disturbing? Is that not what real soldiers in any government's military do? Yes, I do know what they said at the end of Ultimates volume 2. It's really to bad that real soldiers don't follow suit. I think you might be misunderstanding what I am saying though. I am not supporting what Ultimate Cap did but I like that this behavior is being shown by the symbol of America. The Ultimates is a more accurate representation of our generation as it is now. Today's political problems are symbolized in the Ultimate storylines. You asked if my government told me to kill an unarmed man would I do it? First of all he was trying to kill Cap before he lost his hands, so that makes him fair game, but anyway if I was a soldier it would be my duty to follow orders, even if they conflicted with my own personal beliefs. The pilots of the Enola Gay killed millions of unarmed people because they followed orders. People of military from every nation and empire on earth has been doing the same thing for thousands of years. I could talk about many other examples but that would no doubt start arguments and I'm not interested in doing that.
You guys are treading way too close to political grounds (yes, i know it's a theme in ultimates) and may want to back off of it before you get your thread closed. Also, seems like a lot of spouting off is pretty misinformed and pretty under-researched.
You can't really talk about today's issues and refer back to the Enola Gay and the fall of ancient Rome as examples of good soldiering, man. I could just rebutt by mentioning all the massacres and rapes during the Vietnam War that were committed by soldiers "following orders". Obviously today we're more informed about the effects of war and are able question why we're involved in conflicts due to the increased powers of the media. Soldiers are able to be more accountable for their own actions without feeling that they're going to be imprisoned for not following questionable orders.
"First of all he was trying to kill Cap before he lost his hands, so that makes him fair game, but anyway if I was a soldier it would be my duty to follow orders, even if they conflicted with my own personal beliefs."
Executing an unarmed prisoner would be a violation of the Geneva convention anyway ... so following those particular orders would be illegal. Cap executing the dude was a pure fantasy comic book moment.
Edit: CaptMorgan is just explaining his opinion ... there's been no name-calling or arguing.
Let's get the discussion back on topic.
"You can't really talk about today's issues and refer back to the Enola Gay and the fall of ancient Rome as examples of good soldiering, man."
Why not? The fact remains today as it did back then, soldiers follow orders without question.
"I could just rebut by mentioning all the massacres and rapes during the Vietnam War that were committed by soldiers "following orders".
Rebut what? I completely agree with this statement. In fact you enforced what I was talking about.
"Executing an unarmed prisoner would be a violation of the Geneva convention anyway ... so following those particular orders would be illegal. Cap executing the dude was a pure fantasy comic book moment"
I know you are not so naive that you think horrible things like this are not going on even today in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure there are violations upon violations of the Geneva Convention going on everyday. So it wasn't just pure fantasy, it was a reflection of the times.
Back to the topic however, after reading a ton of Captain America issues I am beginning to see just how super that serum was. Of course the serum and Steve Rogers was a perfect union, it's being inside of him that truly makes the serum super.
Let keeps this on the topic. Thank You
I find more offense at the possibliltiy that Cap could lose to Cage than the discussion going here...
Compared to other forums this is downright civil discourse.
And IMO Cap would completely use Cage's skin etc against him. Cap's beaten FAR tougher oppponents, and stopped for lunch. That is, until he got shot on the steps of the courthouse.
Yeah, my thinking on this matter has changed. I have been reading tons of Cap comics and reading all the fights he has been in. Seems I seriously underestimated Cap's ability to take down people much more powerful than himself. Now I have to figure out a way for this to be represented well in the rumble room. I use USAgent's hero files for all my guys but the AI isn't as strategic as Cap is.
Ultimate Captain America is a jerk, IMHO. The Original is not. Which of the two is more heroic? The guy who does what he's told (sort of) no matter whether it's ethical as long as it wins? Or the guy who does what's right with all of his heart, even if he's not always right?
I know which one I'd rather read about. Steve Rogers was and is missed. Nobody I know would cry a single RL tear over Ultimate Cap if it happened to him.
Technically, NO soldier is ever supposed to blindly execute unlawful orders, and anyone who's ever been in the military should have a pretty good idea as to what that means. Disobedience to unlawful orders can still get a guy in trouble, but in the end nobody's going to hang an Abu Ghraib on him. A soldier's job is NOT to kill the enemy. A soldier's job is to win battles and protect national interests. That may involve killing, but not necessarily.
I would also point out that the Geneva Convention works both ways where *legal* combatants are concerned. Americans should uphold it because we wouldn't want our troops abused in the opposite situation. If it ever gets violated, shame on us. (but IMHO terrorists don't abide by the Convention and don't deserve any legal protection.)
to me i enjoy the classic characters and their morale codes and values.something that the world is quickly loosing.i know we're in different times and things change but what are we changing into?the real captain america did kill during the war but later i think he learned theres always a better way.taking lives should be the very last option.killing him off was a cheap shot at making a profit.caps not dead...theyre waiting for sales to drop, then bring him back to boost sales.
On a side note: I think Cap should have kicked Batman butt in Marvel vs DC. I like both heroes, but I feel Cap should have won.
I agree that Ultimate Cap is a total jerk, but that's why I love the character. I'm also a fan of the original Cap and I think if you needed to go for an alternate re-imagening of the character this is pretty much the right way to do it. A living anachronism of 1940's "Let's kill some natzis" fanaticism mixed with the modern lethality of post deconstruction heroes. Also I love the fact that he is an extremely liberal guy... for the 1940's. In present day he's more than a little sexist, racist and insensitive.
So far as Cap versus Batman I agree that Cap should of won and I prefered the JLA vs AVENGERS take that maybe Batman and Captain America would be too smart to even fight each other.
in the JLA/AVENGERS mini series batman said that cap could beat him toe-to-toe.
Quote from: herodad1 on June 30, 2008, 07:55:47 PM
in the JLA/AVENGERS mini series batman said that cap could beat him toe-to-toe.
As it should be. Batman is trained in more hand to hand combat styles than Cap (he's practically a freakin' ninja!), but Cap has the advantages when it comes to experience, agility and strength. Batman would have to use dirty tactics and his utility belt, and most of his gadgets wouldn't get past Cap's shield.
I wasn't too happy Batman beat Cap in Marvel vs. DC, but I like the fact they made it a fluke, with Batman being lucky.
I always thought Cap should be at least as formidable as Deathstroke The Terminator in the DC universe, considering Deathstroke is essentially an morally ambiguous / evil version of Cap.
Quote from: Jakew on June 30, 2008, 08:56:16 PM
I always thought Cap should be at least as formidable as Deathstroke The Terminator in the DC universe, considering Deathstroke is essentially an morally ambiguous / evil version of Cap.
Agreed. And DtheT has cleaned Batman's clock more than once.
Weird, I always thought Taskmaster was the equal to Deathstroke. Taskmaster should be able to take down Cap with ease, but the writers lately have it in for that guy.
Quote from: thanoson on July 01, 2008, 08:06:34 AM
Weird, I always thought Taskmaster was the equal to Deathstroke. Taskmaster should be able to take down Cap with ease, but the writers lately have it in for that guy.
Well, you've got to understand what makes Tasky tick.
His 'power', if it be called that, is essentially being able to perfectly recall and duplicate someone's "moves" within human limits. Tasky has no superhuman reflexes or super-strength or super-speed so far as I've ever read. A side-effect of his ability is enabling him to predict what an opponent is going to do. That allows him to take on guys like Spider-Man whom he shouldn't even be able to touch.
But he's got his limits, and by now pretty much every hero he has a run-in with knows what they are. He's not quite Cap's equal physically, IMHO, so Cap will always have that edge. And of course Tasky can be outguessed occasionally. Not to mention, the guy's getting old... he's got to be slowing down :)