BAB seems to be pretty active this weekend. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Drops a pearl or two for us as well.
QuoteAs far as I know the plan is to continue to shoot for 3 issues/year. We're still on schedule for Issue 12 and you guys will be seeing more details about that very soon.
[edit]
Should clarify this. The plan is to continue with 3 free issues/year, at least on par with what we've done since Issue 9 (hopefully better), as well as branching out into development in other areas that I'm not allowed to talk about because they haven't been announced yet.
Edited by BackAlleyBrawler (03/02/08 02:39 PM)
Just to let you know, the emphasis on free is BAB's, not mine.
Let the wild speculation begin.
RTT
Sounds like a hint toward more pay mini-packs.
-MJB
You can bet there will be something substantial in 2009 to counter the release of Champions Online. A paid exansion, CoH2, CoH on consoles, etc.
There is where I worry a bit. Back Alley Brawler mentioned that they are still in the process of getting all of their positions filled. He also stated that we won't really feel the effects of the new team until "... Issue 13 at the earliest...". This doesn't leave much time to develop a new expansion, sequel or console port.
-MJB
They're going to have to innovate (or at least try) in the light of Champions Online being announced - they really have no choice! The chatter about CO on the official forums is already amping up, and people will start to dream big about what it will offer that CoX doesn't or hasn't yet. Soooo the CoX devs are going to need to sweeten the pot to keep the faithful from wandering.
Nonetheless, this may only cause the current game's limitations to become more obvious. As we've talked about endlessly before, there's only so much that can be changed on top of the mountains of existing code. But, who knows: there's so much that's good about CoX, too, that CO will have to at least surpass the standard that's been already set.
I'm hoping that this will continue to whip up the fire currently flickering under the devs' collective butts and get them to go hardcore after new ATs/sets/content/etc. Healthy competition (hopefully) means better stuff! :thumbup:
EC
I just hope they start listening to the players more. Yes they have added some QOL stuff people have been asking for but there's tons of little things they could do to woo the fanbase into sticking around.
-MJB
Quote from: MJB on March 03, 2008, 11:49:55 AM
I just hope they start listening to the players more. Yes they have added some QOL stuff people have been asking for but there's tons of little things they could do to woo the fanbase into sticking around.
-MJB
Listening more? Man, you definitely are new. They've given more of what we've asked for in the last 3 issues than ever before. Before that it was the attitude "we'll listen, and pretend to care, but in the end, you'll take it...and YOU'LL LIKE IT!" But in the end, we're talking about a 4 year old game so badly coded we should be glad they add anything, versus a game designed by many of the people who made their mistakes on their very competition. CoX just can't handle that under its current form. Unless of course CO fails miserably on many of its features. Hell, are capes even going to be in that game at launch?
CoX is going to stay alive on its "casual old folks" The guys who only play 5 or 6 hours a week and love the fact they never have to worry about their toons being deleted. Does CO even have a sidekick system? Or an exemplar system? They've got lots of flash and pizazz, but is their going to be all those little things we take for granted now?
I don't -want- a sidekick or exemplar system in CO... at least not the way it's implemented in CoX. It makes sense for CoX, don't get me wrong, where teaming is pretty much the enforced norm and you need to be able to pick up a player no matter what their experience level is.
For CO, I'm hoping that there isn't so much of a drastic difference between levels. I should be able to start with a good number of the powers that will be my mainstay, I shouldn't be tied to graded powersets so severely, and it shouldn't be blooming impossible to 'hit' a target that's a few levels higher than I am. On the flipside of the argument, I hate losing access to powers just to play at a 'lower level'.
It should be less about levelling and more about adventuring, if you know what I mean. I don't know how they're going to balance that against the powergamers, but I hope they figure out a way.
Instancing at a more granular level would help. The game should calculate the average effective level of all of the participants and adjust the enemies accordingly. CoX does that to a limited degree, true, but most often it just means that the big guns are less effective than usual and the small fry are mostly cannon fodder and support.
In my view, sidekicking should help more than exemplaring hurts, which isn't true of CoX. Sidekicking isn't too far off the mark in CoX but exemping sucks.
Actually, I think sidekicking and exemplaring would be best expressed in terms of bonuses and penalties to 'accuracy' and 'effect' rather than as an effective level.
The sidekick experiences some benefit in teaming up with higher level heroes without actually functioning as if they were higher level than they are. The greater the difference in levels, the higher the benefit up to some cap.
The exemplar experiences some penalty that reflects how they are 'holding back' so as not to expose their sidekicks to excessive danger. The greater the difference in levels, the greater the penalty. But without the unnecessary penalty of losing access to powers. Effectiveness, sure, but not in the basic use of the power itself. Once gained, powers shouldn't be lost.
And it should work like that at all times, so that you can't sidekick without an exemplar and vice versa.
Coding nightmare? Maybe. But that's how I think it would work ideally.
If they can find a balance in CO between "the entire game plays like Rikti Invasion" and "new players can't just jump to Peregrine Island", they'll have a lot of people very happy.
Quote from: BlueBard on March 04, 2008, 10:54:14 AM
Actually, I think sidekicking and exemplaring would be best expressed in terms of bonuses and penalties to 'accuracy' and 'effect' rather than as an effective level.
The sidekick experiences some benefit in teaming up with higher level heroes without actually functioning as if they were higher level than they are. The greater the difference in levels, the higher the benefit up to some cap.
The exemplar experiences some penalty that reflects how they are 'holding back' so as not to expose their sidekicks to excessive danger. The greater the difference in levels, the greater the penalty. But without the unnecessary penalty of losing access to powers. Effectiveness, sure, but not in the basic use of the power itself. Once gained, powers shouldn't be lost.
And it should work like that at all times, so that you can't sidekick without an exemplar and vice versa.
Coding nightmare? Maybe. But that's how I think it would work ideally.
What is so bad about losing access to powers? If you were the level of the person you're exemplared too, you woudln't have access to most of the powers you'd lose. And if you're respeccing and not planning for any possible exemplaring, than it's your fault for poorly planning your character. Of course that is the CoX system, with it's rigid archetypes and such. It would actually be easier to bring the system in for CO if they go with a point based system. Just start deducting points.
But your point about CoX requiring teaming, sometimes I wonder if some of you guys play the same game I do. This game is the only online game I know of where you can literally never team with another person, and still end up as powerful as the guy who's teamed since popping up in AP. On WOW, you can solo, but the best gear only comes from raids as far as I understand it. If you solo, you end up half the character you could be. CoX makes soloing, in many instances, the better choice. For gear, a fast killing character, like a fire/kin or a brute, is the best way to get IO drops and earn the heaps Inf for the ones you would normally get from teaming in task forces. The only time you'd need another person is too twink to new characters, and even then you can pass off inf by just being clever with the market. Of course there's the entire fact that IO's are completely unneeded, and any character can get by and fully succeed on just SO's.
CO has some big boots to fill, and some flashy simplified combat system is just not going to be enough in my eyes to steal CoX's thunder.
Quote from: Verfall on March 04, 2008, 05:54:34 PM
CO has some big boots to fill, and some flashy simplified combat system is just not going to be enough in my eyes to steal CoX's thunder.
I think you'll find that there are a lot of players who are in my boat, with no major complaints with CoH except that they're just finished the game. CO doesn't need to be a mind-blowing game to steal CoH's market share-- it just needs to provide a
comparable game experience to make people feel comfortable, and then the fact that it has new content and mechanics will provide enough "new and shiny" to keep people interested.
Add in the fact that gamers are mindless lemmings who tend to jump on anything new, and CO is pretty much guaranteed to gut the CoH playerbase unless it turns out to be a steaming turd (which is, of course, still possible).
I'm fairly tired of CoH's neverending grind already and I've never even got a character to 50. I'm giving serious thought to cancelling.
It doesn't help that I've never quite been able to build the characters I really wanted to build and that is squarely the fault of the rigid AT system and the practical constraints on power selection. Stamina as a power is still the one thing that sticks in my craw the worst... that I have to give up powers I really want because I have to have this non-power and it's dependencies in order to succeed. Why must I have Swift or Hurdle to get Stamina? Why do I have to take Combat Jumping or Jump Kick to get Super Jump?
CoX really needs to expand and change their elective power system if they want to compete with a more flexible game system. And they really really need to anti-nerf Endurance so Stamina isn't practically a requirement.
On exemplaring, I hate the accompanying power loss with a passion. It doesn't matter that I have respecs with which to reorder my power selection... I have so few powers to start with and many of those are predetermined. Again, it forces 'vanillization' for the sake of playability; I have to take x power at level y and slot just so in order to be really effective.
I have enjoyed playing CoH at times and I don't really regret playing it. What it does well, is good. What it doesn't do well, is mostly just annoying and not really show-stoppers. But I can see why people are getting excited about Champions Online.
I'm going to address a few people here:
First off I am all for a paid expansion at this point. I thought CoV was a paid expansion and I think another one with it's accompanying marketing blitz would be good for CoH. Never underestimate the power of simply having boxes in Futureshop (with it's accompanying time cards). I love new content and I think the past year has probably been the best for the game since it's release. Really I look at all the improvements over the past year, just about everything I ever wanted has been added to the game. I still recall hanging out with Ver nightly and grinding on the streets of Bricks on the mobs there and having a lot of "wouldn't it be cool if...." conversations.
I also think the micropayments are fine as long as it's never associated with AT's, Power sets, or Zone content. I don't want marriage costumes, and if it's going to cost dev time, let them get paid for it. I like the ability to choose. I never bought GvsE, even though some of my friends did. They made the choice that the Pocket D teleporter was worth the money.
Spud's pretty much right about a significant part of the population just having finished the game. I'm sure the numbers are declining slowly at this point and you know what? He's right CoH is going to be gutted by CO at least temporarily. I'm sure most everyone that reads this part of the board will at least try it. I know I will.... After all, I grew up playing Champions and V&V.
I personally have been a spotty participant since the first year and a half on this game where I was playing for hours a night. It gives me a different perspective. There's a lot of new stuff for me to check out. But you know... if I had been playing solidly for the past 2 years I would also probably have an active account on another MMO. There really isn't a ton to do once you hit 50. I know the whole "it's not the destination, it's the journey" argument, and have used it myself. But the FIRST thing I do whenever I come back for a time is log my main and see what I can do with him.
I am with Ver on the whole "what game are you playing" when talking about the teaming element in CoX. I could solo a blaster to 50. Wouldn't be that hard. Easier (and heaps more fun) than soloing a mage to 20 in WoW I assure you (which I have done). You could probably solo a slightly borked build to 50. I also think there's enough content to make that a mostly fun journey. You would miss out on some of the game's highlights (Eden and The Sewer Trial being good examples) but I bet by 50 you could have a nice toon, have seen A LOT of the content, and have enough infl for some toys. You might even be able to manage a nice little base. In fact I am sure that even the lowliest of Blaster or Scrapper builds would make a fun solo journey to 50.
Bluebard, I have much to say about your posts:
Exemplaring RULES. It's that simple. It's an excellent social function. I will listen to no debate on the matter. Back in the days when debt actually mattered I was constantly examplaring down, and having fun with my friends while grinding off debt and making huge amounts of Infl. (Infl at that time that had absolutely no purpose). I just did it cause I like the game and playing it with my friends.
Exemplaring is one of the most fun ways to do that. Don't like it?... What would you prefer, me having the ability to use an Inferno at level 16? It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense in terms of game mechanics and it doesn't make sense in terms of the "Idea of Examplaring". The idea of Ex'ing down is like Captain America and Bucky going into a warehouse full of thugs that Bucky found on his travels. They're pretty tough for Bucky but Cap's level 50. So he limits himself to set the example for Bucky on how to use his existing powers.
You believe you should have complete freedom to choose whatever powers whenever. If I am not mistaken they tried this in the original CoH beta.
Guess what?.... didn't work.
Really the last thing this game needs is a character with the defensive power on an Inv tank and the destructive power of a fire blaster. The class system really does do away with a good amount of this. I'm sure I would love status protection on my blaster but then the game would become way too easy.... So I would probably love feeling like a god for 3 days before I got bored and went and played Portal.
Your wish to just take Teleport and not require Recall Friend flies in the face of character progression. Doesn't it make more sense to have to learn to throw a punch like Jab from the Boxing pool before you can learn the high conditioning of a boxer? It's just a loose example.
Why should I have access to my blaster nuke at level 10? Doesn't it mean more when it's something I plan for and achieve?
My main.... He didn't get Stamina until the upper 30s. I didn't even really figure out what it was until my mid 20s. I took leadership instead. And this was before respecs. Personally I find the AT system to be VERY flexible. The pool powers lend to a lot of wacky ideas. People saying you *need* certain things? Don't listen to them. I six slotted hurdle on a blaster once just cause I thought it would be fun as hell and made sense for the toon.
Stamina is not needed. I've put a couple toons into their 30s without it and there are many builds out there where it's optional.
I actually find it funny Bluebard, that you... probably the most casual of the regular players still left are the one arguing for "whatever I want , when I want it".
It's the same desire that powers the PL beggars in PI ;)
-rain
First post after truth.
Rain,
Actually, I think RTT beats me in the wishlist department... he doesn't even still play the game as far as I know. ;)
My money is as good as everyone else's, so I figure I'm entitled to a wishlist as long as I understand it doesn't mean a darn thing to the devs. Being a casual player has nothing to do with it.
The game is what it is. If I express the opinion that I hope CO does it better and makes a game I'll enjoy playing more, then so be it.
I'm not against exemping in theory. I know what it's for. I'm not stupid. I just happen to think it's not implemented in a reasonable way, especially in the cases where Auto-Exemp kicks in. It's not reasonable that heroes lose access to abilities just because they're associating with other heroes and sidekicks. Does Superman lose his Super Strength when he hangs out with Batman? Or even with Jimmy Olsen? It took Ouroborous to create a good (plot-driven) rationale for the way the exemp system currently works. Still don't like it, but in the framework of time travel or flashbacks it works.
Also, I know for a fact I'm not the only person wishing for a more flexible powers system. I'm not saying that the most powerful abilities have to be available on Day One. What I am saying is, I believe I should be able to create a reasonably unique character in the game that goes beyond mere cosmetics and that character should have many of his or her defining powers on Day One, albeit not at their maximum potential. Certainly more than two or three highly limited 'powers'. Waiting until level 14 before attaining Flight, for example, goes beyond unreasonable IMO. I also happen to believe that I should be able to have some form of defenses AND ranged combat... at a cost. I believe the current AT system is TOO limited, directly contributes to the grind effect, and I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you are.
Not needing Stamina? You're probably in the minority who says it isn't needed. Without it, certain AT's and builds constantly run out of End in tough battles where the team is charging through the mission from one mob to the next... and that's with End Reduction slotted. It interferes with my enjoyment of playing a 'powerful' super hero when my character effectively runs out of breath in the middle of every fight. I wouldn't mind taking Stamina if it didn't limit my other choices so severely, if I didn't have to sacrifice two power slots to get it. I wouldn't mind stopping to Rest, except it slows the rest of the team down.
Is Teaming absolutely necessary? No. But you can't deny that the game is weighted so that teams advance faster than solos. Way faster. Especially for squishies, which is what I tend to play. So, essentially, solos are unfairly penalized. Controllers and Defenders are actually designed not to function most efficiently except as parts of a team, a well-stated design paradigm from way back. I happen to not like that. I also dislike XP Debt, see no real purpose to it, and wish they'd do away with it. But since I'm not an executive of NCSoft, I have no real expectations in that regard.
I do not deny that CoH has made major changes since I've been playing and that the game is better than when I started. The most recent updates, for the most part, have added to the game immensely across all levels. I doubt I'd pay full price for a new expansion at this point, though. The 'wedding pack' was a joke, as far as I'm concerned, but I'm sure some people liked it. I bought GvsE for the jump pack, basically, but the Pocket D teleporter has also turned out to be very useful. And a lot of people continue to ask me about the Prestige Power Slide that came with the DVD edition. I'm even sure that there are some people who've actually paid a premium for renames and transfers. I won't be one of them, but I'm glad the option is open for those who will. I'm one of the folks who regarded ED as a good thing (it's the way I tended to slot anyhow, even before ED). Inventions have very effectively funded many of my characters' upgrades, so that's okay too.
At the end of the day, though, I find myself wishing for a super hero game that COH simply is not and may never be. So I really am interested in Champions Online, I really hope they make a better game, and I really hope they avoid some of the mistakes they made the first time around. I even like the pnp Champions background and feel better than that of CoH, and I hope they get that right too.
And I really hope they launch with capes. :D
Quote from: Midnight on March 05, 2008, 11:01:54 AM
First post after truth.
In this context, at least, truth is in the eye of the beholder. But I will graciously allow you to have your own opinions on the matter. At least until I rule the world and all game development companies. After that, maybe not.
Quote from: BlueBard on March 05, 2008, 11:49:48 AM
Quote from: Midnight on March 05, 2008, 11:01:54 AM
First post after truth.
In this context, at least, truth is in the eye of the beholder. But I will graciously allow you to have your own opinions on the matter. At least until I rule the world and all game development companies. After that, maybe not.
LOL!
Yeah, I second your dislike of XP debt, BB. It really doesn't have any purpose other than to annoy the player and make leveling take EVEN longer.
I hadn't even heard of Champions Online until a couple of days ago, either. I'm so excited to see more about it. Maybe it won't have a monthly fee? I'm all for purchasing a couple expansion packs a year, as long as their optional. That way you aren't paying the steep price of $15 a month..
Quote from: Figure Fan on March 05, 2008, 12:51:49 PM
Maybe it won't have a monthly fee?
Keep dreaming, stretch.
Quote from: Figure Fan on March 05, 2008, 12:51:49 PM
Yeah, I second your dislike of XP debt, BB. It really doesn't have any purpose other than to annoy the player and make leveling take EVEN longer.
Debt is there to discourage reckless playing and keep characters in their level-appropriate circumstances/zones.
I'm going to go with Rain about Stamina. I have several low to high end toons that don't have it. For others, it's nice, but it's not necessary.
And I'm going to sit on the fence about power selection. I like the AT/Power Sets structure of CoX, but I wish there were more choices, even purely aesthetic ones, within those power sets. I am looking forward to seeing how CO's power selection compares to Freedom Force's. I could see an Inv/Fire Blaster, in which both powers are limited (if I think of how the FF model would've worked), or the cost for those two powers limits what else the character can afford.
Teams should level faster -- in many real-life situations, people that work together get the job done sooner and more efficiently.
To sum it all up: I like stuff.
I'm basically quoting States here, heaven forbid, but what is reward without risk? You say you don't want debt, what are would you prefer as a death penalty? Loss of experience? A major debuff for half an hour? Loss of all enhancements if you do not return to your body within a certain time period? All of those are current examples of penalties in other MMO's. With all the crazy xp nerfing lately, I'm often out of debt before I have a chance to hit the hospital. Usually 2 groups and your debt is gone. And yet that penalty is too great for some people? Why not just ask for the infamous /50 command?
The biggest problem this group has is many of you are hoping for FF: the MMO. CO won't be it. They can not properly do the FF point system, or power customization, in an MMO environment. Tank mages have always been one of States biggest burrs in his fur, and the FF system was rife with them. I personally want to know what has changed so much since CoX came out that some how Cryptic is able to go with the previous system they ditched for the AT system? People already complain about CoX feeling like "City of Civilians" after the GDN and ED, how nerfed are toons going to be in CO in comparison? Is it going to be possible to fight many guys at once, or is the full team going to be required for every mob in the mission? I stopped playing WoW at 10 just because if one other mob wandered by, my "tank" Tauren was dead. Even the lowliest of blasters can handle 3 mobs at once.
But overall, the more I look at CO, the more I read interviews and stuff, it just seems to me that Cryptic is all about crapping on CoX. States interviews don't seem to be about doing anything interesting, or anything worth a damn, they just seem to be a mix of "CoX sucks, but we're taking all their ideas and making them better!" It's like calling CoX a turd, but than whipping out the grinder to polish it up and calling it a new name. Never mind the fact Cryptic doesn't have the big pockets of NCSoft to keep it afloat if they do screw something up. A large portion of the developer team that worked on the early days of CoX, and brought down things like ED, are still with Cryptic, so well know incompetency runs deep in that brood.
CoX is far from perfect, but it's amazing how people are jumping on the CO bandwagon when all we have is some pretty pictures and promises. And as most of you know, I believe anything that comes out of States mouth is about on par with what comes out of his other end. Zeb Cook was the main reason I stayed around in CoX, and you can tell how well CoV went after he departed. Grandville in comparison to the rest of the zones shows how well States and the old guys could handle something brilliant handed to them.
I truly believe that if CO was being run by any other company, I'd have more faith in it.
There's actually a pretty simple way to balance a points system with open power selection-- you use the system from Final Fantasy VII. Each character could hold X number of materia, and could slot anything into each of those slots. Each materia does two things-- it has a primary function (shoot fireball, counter attacks, etc) and a stat modifier (a big summon would have +10% magic attack and -10% physical attack). If you equip "blasty" magic, your physical damage is pathetic. If you slot durability materia, your magic stats hit the toilet. If you mix and match, your character sucks at everything. You always have the OPTION of being a tank mage, but if you go that route, you'll have the blasts of a Dark Defender and the shields of a Dark scrapper.
It's a very simple system-- if you take a power, you get the stats you need to run it, and lose the stats you don't need. As long as they use a variant on that, a points-based grab bag of powers has no inherent balance issues. The best solution will always be to specialize, but there will still be the option of diversifying if that's more your thing.
QuoteCoX is far from perfect, but it's amazing how people are jumping on the CO bandwagon when all we have is some pretty pictures and promises.
Which should tell you something about the player base-- they're just tired of CoH. Its merits and detriments completely aside, the game is howevermany years old, and there's only so long people are going to keep playing it. Right now a lot of people are sticking with it simply because it's the only choice. The playerbase is desperate for
any new superhero MMO, and CO's just the first thing to come along. People will play CO even if it's slightly worse overall than CoH, just because it's something new. The NCSoft team has basically just had an ultimatum put on their desk-- they need to stop improving CoH, and start working on CoH2. If CoH2 hasn't been announced and at least partially previewed by next spring, they're going to suffer irreparable damage to their subscription numbers. And as we all know, losing players causes more lost players. Once they lose the people who are going to CO, they'll then start losing the people who just don't like the deserted servers. And so on and so forth.
It's a really crappy situation for States and crew to put their old friends in, but that's the reality of it at this point. CO is in an awesome position-- the game is going to do well, at least initially, whether it's good or not.
Not only will CoH lose players to Champions, but CoH would lose players to CoH2. Not everyone can run a nextgen engine (hi ephy's old computer!) so NCSoft is screwed six ways to Sunday on this one.
Quote from: BlueBard on March 05, 2008, 11:43:28 AMActually, I think RTT beats me in the wishlist department... he doesn't even still play the game as far as I know. ;)
Now what does that mean? :P
Just be happy I'm not going to torture you all with my in-depth wish of detective missions.
Wouldn't it be cool if you had to actually look around for something, and not go to a glowing item, or something with a ring around it? I'd like them to see taking the random clicking of items a step further as actual clues with activated emotes. As an example, instead of just clicking on a morgue door and getting a silly block of text for no reason. Say you click on a file cabinet, it opens and an emote starts of you actually looking through the file cabinet and a window pops up with some type of clue to be applied to something later. Say that clue leads you to a dumpster on a certain street corner named in the previous clue. You click on the dumpster and find an important clue. You then take that clue to police headquarters and use the crime labs to go to the next step, etc.
I see this things being used in one way or another, without purpose. I'd like to see them actually applied to usage to deepen the game.
I don't think my wish list is that bad. :P 3 years later, and I still can't get a hero the exact way I imagine. Do I think CO will change that? Nope. Do I think CO will make CoH that much better to where I can finally get a hero the exact way I imagine over there? Nope. I do hope it helps them step it up though.
And I don't mean that to be mean. The last few issues were great, a real improvement. But... after 3 years, they weren't enough to deepen or enrich my gaming experience enough to keep me around. Same old - same old. I don't think CO honestly is going to be much different. I don't care how incredible or in depth the powers there are. I have a feeling the play style is going to be the same (albeit perhaps faster). Just not interested in that anymore, even if it is with powers exactly the way I want. I did it for 3 years already.
RTT
Quote from: RTTingle on March 05, 2008, 08:40:22 PM
Quote from: BlueBard on March 05, 2008, 11:43:28 AMActually, I think RTT beats me in the wishlist department... he doesn't even still play the game as far as I know. ;)
Now what does that mean? :P
Just be happy I'm not going to torture you all with my in-depth wish of detective missions.
Wouldn't it be cool if you had to actually look around for something, and not go to a glowing item, or something with a ring around it? I'd like them to see taking the random clicking of items a step further as actual clues with activated emotes. As an example, instead of just clicking on a morgue door and getting a silly block of text for no reason. Say you click on a file cabinet, it opens and an emote starts of you actually looking through the file cabinet and a window pops up with some type of clue to be applied to something later. Say that clue leads you to a dumpster on a certain street corner named in the previous clue. You click on the dumpster and find an important clue. You then take that clue to police headquarters and use the crime labs to go to the next step, etc.
I see this things being used in one way or another, without purpose. I'd like to see them actually applied to usage to deepen the game.
I don't think my wish list is that bad. :P 3 years later, and I still can't get a hero the exact way I imagine. Do I think CO will change that? Nope. Do I think CO will make CoH that much better to where I can finally get a hero the exact way I imagine over there? Nope. I do hope it helps them step it up though.
And I don't mean that to be mean. The last few issues were great, a real improvement. But... after 3 years, they weren't enough to deepen or enrich my gaming experience enough to keep me around. Same old - same old. I don't think CO honestly is going to be much different. I don't care how incredible or in depth the powers there are. I have a feeling the play style is going to be the same (albeit perhaps faster). Just not interested in that anymore, even if it is with powers exactly the way I want. I did it for 3 years already.
RTT
Personally, I'd rather see the things you've been talking about RTT in a NWN or Oblivion style environment than an MMO environment. A true Super hero RPG with a massive construction set to go with it. As well as online multiplayer. The Champions license would have been perfect for that. MMO's always have to provide a Grind, something that makes the player keep paying their 15 bucks. CoX had a less noticeable Grind, but it was still the essential point of the game. Everything else in an MMO environment is either just filler for the Grind, or is a whole new out of combat Grind.
MUA and FF are close to that ideal, but I'm not a big fan of multiple characters to control. Give me MUA's combat, with FF's customization, toss in some Elder Scrolls modding abilities, some reliable multiplayer and make the main Storyline 100 hours long at the minimum. I'm willing to bet this forum would have multiple servers of their own up days after the release. MMO's just won't bring the satisfaction we as a group want, they can only half-arse it as they're stuck in that MMO format to make money.
At this point, I just have to pray Fallout 3 won't suck. If I play that nearly as much as I played the first 2, I won't have to worry about paying for an MMO for the next 2 years :thumbup:
Quote from: rain on March 04, 2008, 09:03:33 PM
First off I am all for a paid expansion at this point. I thought CoV was a paid expansion and I think another one with it's accompanying marketing blitz would be good for CoH. Never underestimate the power of simply having boxes in Futureshop (with it's accompanying time cards).
They're going to have to do a lot better than CoV though. Solely in terms of drawing more players to the game, CoV was an abysmal failure. I enjoyed CoV but even at its best, I played heroside more. A lot of time and money went into an expansion that did little but provide to people who were already playing the game.
Quote from: rain on March 04, 2008, 09:03:33 PMI could solo a blaster to 50. Wouldn't be that hard. Easier (and heaps more fun) than soloing a mage to 20 in WoW I assure you (which I have done).
I have to disagree here. I leveled my Gnome Mage to 60 without a hitch. Leveling to WoW is pathetically easy even to solo; far easier than CoH. No debt and, thanks to the Rest feature, if you don't play a toon for a few days, you basically get half a level for free. The only time I ever teamed was the dungeons where I needed my next good staff (Westfall, The Scarlet Monastery, etc.). I got that Mage (Frost/Arcane; so he wasn't even the high dam. mage) to 60 in less time than a regen Scrapper to 35 in a game I played less and was less familiar with. WoW has always been one of the easiest games to level in and, from what I've heard, it's even easier now
Quote from: rain on March 04, 2008, 09:03:33 PMYou believe you should have complete freedom to choose whatever powers whenever. If I am not mistaken they tried this in the original CoH beta.
Guess what?.... didn't work.
To be fair, this was because the code they wrote couldn't hack it, not because open-ended character creation is the suxxor. When you have an idea for a game (and open-ended character creation was the initial idea for CoH) and then you write code that, at no point, was able to handle it, it's no wonder the idea was dropped. But that in now way makes the idea a bad one.
Quote from: rain on March 04, 2008, 09:03:33 PMThe class system really does do away with a good amount of this.
ChampionsO has a class system; it's just much less restrictive than CoX's AT system.
Quote from: rain on March 04, 2008, 09:03:33 PMPersonally I find the AT system to be VERY flexible.
To each his own I suppose. I find the AT system to be one of CoX's biggest failings. Soloing usually means Scrapper; especially on any difficulty past heroic. You can do it sure, but the mechanics of the game stear you away from it. I also hate how certain powersets within an AT are so clearly superior to others (Regen for one, despite it's many nerfs) and how other sets have been garbage for going on 4 years now (War Mace and Ice Melee for example). Can you still make fun toons with these sets? Sure. But when even a noob comes in and can visibly see how bad a set or combination is after one week of playing, there's a serious problem.
Quote from: rain on March 04, 2008, 09:03:33 PMStamina is not needed. I've put a couple toons into their 30s without it and there are many builds out there where it's optional.
No power is absolutely needed but the majority of builds, without Stamina, are seriously gimped. You might not need it at 20, but by 30 most builds are hurting without stamina.
Quote from: rain on March 04, 2008, 09:03:33 PMIt's the same desire that powers the PL beggars in PI ;)
I thought that was sidekicking.
ChampionsO had better be an inferior game than CoX. CoX has had four years to make themselves better. If Champions comes out of the gate and is already comparable to CoX, CoX is going to be hurting big time.
DK
Quote from: Verfall on March 05, 2008, 11:58:08 PMGive me MUA's combat, with FF's customization, toss in some Elder Scrolls modding abilities, some reliable multiplayer and make the main Storyline 100 hours long at the minimum.
Sign me up for that one, Ver! :P
Anything the devs of any of these games do to make the experience more super-heroic and comic booky would get my motor revving. I do love playing CoX, but mostly on it's own terms now rather than for any feeling of being a superhero it gives me (which it really doesn't much). If you were to compare FF to CoX for that feeling of being a great costumed crusader right out of the comic pages, FF would win it for me in a blowout.
I like the idea of more flexible character creation within the balance limitations of an MMO. I think that they just need to lock a bunch of people with really good imaginations in a room together with that goal, and then only let the coders get to work once an innovative solution has been fleshed out.
As far as debt goes, there has to be some kind of penalty for screwing up. Otherwise, the game would turn into a bunch of knuckleheads that just run around with heedless abandon. Yuck!
EC
Here's my problem with XP Debt.
I don't get it because I screwed up, most of the time. I get it because some other knucklehead is in blind charge mode. Or I forgot to turn off team teleport on a given toon and some knucklehead sucks me into a losing fight. Or because I'm trying to be a good teammate and help some other poor schmo survive the fight when our ever-present knucklehead draws in even more aggro.
What does that teach me? Not to play MMO's? Great marketing, there.
I'll agree with you Verfall, I'd play a standalone multiplayer game that played the way you're talking about in a second. Maybe I'm just not cut out for MMO's...
At any rate, I'm done debating CoX's downsides. Like I said earlier, it is what it is. I'm as entitled to my viewpoint as anybody... being a paying customer and all that... but in the end if I'm not willing to put up with it I quit paying. Maybe I will. Probably going to have to anyway to pay for another kid.
Back to the main point of the thread. CoX v2, paid expansions, minipacks...
Is CoX v2 inevitable? Is there another case of an MMO that made and survived that kind of transition? Will they try to run the two systems side-by-side independently of each other?
Paid expansions? Maybe. Selling minipacks won't indefinitely extend the life of the game and won't even delay the inevitable; they cater to the select few. Although you could consider Vet Rewards to be a form of 'minipack' that actually did delay the inevitable, at least in my case. (I wanted Wings!)
Quote from: BlueBard on March 06, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Here's my problem with XP Debt.
I don't get it because I screwed up, most of the time. I get it because some other knucklehead is in blind charge mode. Or I forgot to turn off team teleport on a given toon and some knucklehead sucks me into a losing fight. Or because I'm trying to be a good teammate and help some other poor schmo survive the fight when our ever-present knucklehead draws in even more aggro.
What does that teach me? Not to play MMO's? Great marketing, there.
That's a bit of an excessive leap of logic, I would submit. By your description, that should only teach you not to team with the knucklehead, or to find some way to throw that knucklehead under the bus - all in the name of heroism, of course...
QuoteChampionsO had better be an inferior game than CoX. CoX has had four years to make themselves better. If Champions comes out of the gate and is already comparable to CoX, CoX is going to be hurting big time.
DK
That's the thing, Cryptic has full access to not only the basic coding, but a large portion of the developer base that started on CoX. If they aren't at least as good the dev team finally proved they are as big of idiots as States is. CoX is incredibly successful in MMO numbers. 150k users on average for 4 years in a genre that no one else would touch, with no real loot, and tacked on PVP. If CO can't easily get their playerbase to 250k and keep it there, knowing all the problems that CoX has, than somebody screwed up big time. CoX broke ground that no other developer had the jimmies to touch. They just made a lot of mistakes once they got out the gate.
I expect CO to be a good game, but to end up every bit as flawed as CoX. I don't think we'll see the genre properly done till either CoX2 or another company steps up to the plate. The only reason many of us have stuck around in CoX is because of the friendships, not the game itself.
I do think that Posi, BAB and Castle can make CoX2 a better game than CO if given the chance. They've done a good job of trying to clean up the previous regimes messes so far.
Quote from: Viking on March 06, 2008, 01:30:20 PM
Quote from: BlueBard on March 06, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Here's my problem with XP Debt.
I don't get it because I screwed up, most of the time. I get it because some other knucklehead is in blind charge mode. Or I forgot to turn off team teleport on a given toon and some knucklehead sucks me into a losing fight. Or because I'm trying to be a good teammate and help some other poor schmo survive the fight when our ever-present knucklehead draws in even more aggro.
What does that teach me? Not to play MMO's? Great marketing, there.
That's a bit of an excessive leap of logic, I would submit. By your description, that should only teach you not to team with the knucklehead, or to find some way to throw that knucklehead under the bus - all in the name of heroism, of course...
Well, when I'm playing at midnight at levels all of my FR contacts have bypassed long ago, and playing heroside when they're mostly villainside, I don't have a lot of choices in who to team with.
I'm the Pick-Up Team Poster Child. And knuckleheads don't put that fact (that they're knuckleheads) in their tells.
Most of the time lately, though, Teaming has been very good even for PUG's... I assume most of the knuckleheads have moved on to other games. I haven't seen a wipe in awhile.
Quote from: Verfall on March 06, 2008, 02:56:01 PM
I don't think we'll see the genre properly done till either CoX2 or another company steps up to the plate. The only reason many of us have stuck around in CoX is because of the friendships, not the game itself.
I admit I don't know. There were a lot of fantasy MMO's out there before WoW but even EQ2 did nothing to stop the nuke that is WoW. Sometimes a game can come out and blow everyone else out of the water, regardless of it's flaws. And a sequel, even to a popular game, is no guarantee. EQ and EQ2 were/are much more successful than CoX, in a more saturated genre, and WoW still crushed them. I would fully expect CoX2 to be a much better game than the one we have now but that won't necessarily translate into a larger fanbase.
That being said, do you think it's time for CoX 2.0?
DK
Quote from: Dweomer Knight on March 07, 2008, 08:28:19 AM
That being said, do you think it's time for CoX 2.0?
If NCSoft wants the brand to continue, then yes. They need to get working on a full sequel,
quick-like.
Only problem is, if they are working on CoXv2 they are on the hush-hush.
CO is blaring from the rooftops that they're coming and they're better than CoX, even though they're basically a website and some vaporware at this point.
NCSoft needs to get out in front in a hurry and let people know they aren't standing still.
It's my opinion that if NCsoft were working on CoX2 they would have announced it. If they had anything to show they would have done it to try to steal some of CO's thunder.
NCsoft hasn't quite beefed up their team yet. BaB said they are still hiring. With the small team they have just working on new issues has been difficult. They don't have the man power to work on CoX2 yet.
-MJB