Here's an old article (http://www.freedomfans.com/KenMessage.html)(probably for most of you guys) but one i just recently have come across.
Quote
August 2003
Dear Freedom Force Users and Fans:
It has been brought to our attention by Marvel Enterprises, Inc. that some Freedom Force users are allegedly creating and distributing characters for the Freedom Force game based on Marvel and DC comic book characters. While we are flattered by the mods and missions that people have created for the Freedom Force game and applaud the creativity that has spawned thousands of unique and original heroes, we wish to take this opportunity to remind you that Irrational Games' Editor's End User License Agreement ("EULA") provides that end user modifications ("Mods"):
"...may not contain any material subject to copyright or trademark unless you have obtained the consent of the copyright or trademark holder."
Irrational Games is concerned that copyrighted material belonging to third parties not be wrongfully duplicated and distributed by our users. One of our goals in creating Freedom Force is to allow the community to share in the joy of bringing their own creations to life and we do not want to discourage you from continuing to do this. While we appreciate your desire to see your favorite comic book characters in Freedom Force (and many other video games for that matter) and we understand that many of you think that Marvel's zealousness in pursuing this issue may be misplaced, we implore you to exercise your creativity and create your own heroes for the Freedom Force world!
As many of you may be aware, a Freedom Force fan site was recently shut down because it was distributing unauthorized copies of Marvel and DC characters. There may be numerous other websites doing the same. While Irrational Games has no control over or relation to these websites (including www.skindex.net), we hope anyone owning or operating such a website realizes the seriousness of this problem and acts to resolve these issues accordingly, to protect your own interests, as well as Marvel's and ours.
We have also noticed that some websites may be using the Freedom Force logo on their websites. We ask that any websites, Mods, etc. that are using the Freedom Force logo please stop doing so without our specific written approval (please email wgardner@irrationalgames.com for more information). You may, however, still describe your Mod as a Freedom Force mod or a "mod for the Freedom Force game", that is, in a way that merely states that your mod works with the Freedom Force game. We hope that you can see that if everyone used the Freedom Force logo on their websites, no one would know which site is the official Freedom Force website (e.g., Irrational Games' website).
I thank you for your attention. I sincerely hope you recognize the importance and gravity of what I have discussed and will act accordingly.
Sincerely,
Kenneth M. Levine
General Manager, Irrational Games
And it just made me remember this nagging question i always had.
I had always wondered why some of the old Freedom Force fan sites have disappeared.
In the past, I remember reading notes from some skins i downloaded something about copyright issues with Marvel and DC characters. So i pretty much assumed, there were some problems as with regards to skinning copyrighted characters. And when i discovered that most of these Freedom Force fan sites were lost, i couldn't help but think that some of them if not all were forcefully shut downed by Marvel or DC? Do you guys have some personal experience with this? Have some of you guys been approached or contacted by Marvel? DC? or Irrational? and asked to stop making mods/skins or hosting fan sites with copyrighted characters?
I am only aware of one web site ever that was asked to shut down, and some folks say they were charging money in some form or fashion.
Don't upset yourself, ips. This is Outcast's modus operandi (which has become well established over the past few months): post ancient history that is news to him/her to provide an invaluable service to the community. That service, in my interpretation, is to remind us of our ahistorical/amnesiac postmodernity. ^_^
ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Fop o' th' Morning
damn is anyone else cOLD in here
just curious wasn't it established that it was due to the sims content rather than FF, though irrational just took the smart decesion
I have to agree that this thread isn't really a problem. The Skindex C&D happened before I was aware of Freedom Force and I only learned what little I know about it by searching through old posts here at FR. I think it's sort of natural to be curious about the fate of older FF fan sites, given how often they are mentioned here and how easy it is to come across a dead link to one. With those older FR posts unavailable, this is a legitimate way to try and find out what has come before and generate some discussion of it (and, apparently, some meta-discussion about that discussion :P). Obviously, this will be old news to many here, but no one is forced to participate, either.
As to the issue itself, I don't think the Marvel C&D to the Skindex owner is really the cause of shutting down much more than just that site. As far as I know, they only targeted that site. One has to suppose that most of the FF fan sites that have disappeared are gone because some folks who were initially enthused about the game have not maintained that enthusiasm. The C&D might have had a chilling effect on some people and Irrational was always careful to distance itself from sites with copyrighted content, but I don't think that's the primary cause of fan site attrition.
BTW, I hadn't heard that Benson was charging for the content on the Skindex. I had heard that part of the concern was related to material for The Sims game hosted there. I don't have any definitive knowledge about either of the preceding two sentences and I would be curious if someone knows more.
It's not that hard to track own discussion on other sites about this incident via Google, though it's worth keeping in mind a couple things. 1) When reading fan accounts of what happened, be aware that some fans can be... [diplomacy]given to hyperbole[/diplomacy]. As a fan, I hate to say it, but, with this sort of issue, it's less often that you will see a comment like "It is unfortunate that they are taking a short-sighted view" and more common that you will see a comment like "This is pure evil, straight from the fiery depths of Hades and they should be shot in the street like the rabid dogs they are!" That attitude will tend to color the descriptions of an event. And, 2) much of the ill-will felt toward Marvel was, IMO, due to the heavy-handed and frankly rude character of its letter. Many took that as Marvel giving the finger to fans, many of whom reacted in kind.
[Aargh! Ninja'd!]
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on February 23, 2008, 12:22:18 PM
damn is anyone else cOLD in here
just curious wasn't it established that it was due to the sims content rather than FF, though irrational just took the smart decesion
I'm not sure if we confirmed it, but it was the more likely possibility.
It wasnt too much longer after the skindex got the C&D letter, I got one from my internet provider. Back when the Freedom Force hub was around I shared all my meshes and skins there and I got this nasty email from my IP stating that I have copyrighted material that I am distributing and if I dont desist sharing it my provider will cancel their service to me and may get a fine up to $250,000.
But the funny part was, the file name that was mentioned was "Kirby". It was a Kirby mesh from the old Nintendo game. My IP wouldnt tell my who was filing the complaint but at the time everyone thought it was Marvel because of the name "jack Kirby" but it could of well have been Nintendo or someone with Jack himself. Because why would that file get picked out instead of all the other marvel characters?
Oh....very old news anyway.
I'd just like to say that the remarkable thing isn't that some site shut down years ago. The remarkable thing is that, after all this time, there are still fan sites around. Not many games can say that after six years.
Viva :ff:!
Thanks for the replies folks. Sorry if my question was a bit too old. But well, Freedom Force is kind of an old game, and i'm practically still a newbie in these forums. :doh: So, i hope some of you guys would understand. I was just curious and wanted to get some idea as to what happened before. Thanks for letting me know and bearing with me. I'll try and be more careful the next time around. Peace! ^_^
Quote from: HumanTon on February 23, 2008, 03:53:36 PM
I'd just like to say that the remarkable thing isn't that some site shut down years ago. The remarkable thing is that, after all this time, there are still fan sites around. Not many games can say that after six years.
Viva :ff:!
But another reason it is a touchy subject is that as late as 2007 certain sites where dropping their marvel content because at some point maybe some site had been threatened... allegedly. In other words the whole skindex debacle really shaped the face of how much content people where willing to host and how they did it, even if 'nobody' was watching.
RE: Lugaru
Hrm, I don't recall anything happening in 2007 involving Marvel. If you're talking about NPI, I'm pretty sure that was HQ taking the site back to its root as an "original" content site for FF/FFVTTR. Otherwise, I'm kinda a bit in the dark about that statement.
Quote from: Previsionary on February 25, 2008, 03:13:41 PM
RE: Lugaru
Hrm, I don't recall anything happening in 2007 involving Marvel. If you're talking about NPI, I'm pretty sure that was HQ taking the site back to its root as an "original" content site for FF/FFVTTR. Otherwise, I'm kinda a bit in the dark about that statement.
The NPI move complicated things for me given how much good material was there but they still have marvel/dc characters on their meshworks site. I was thinking more of Alex Freedom Fortress and all of the marvel content being dropped, effectively leaving 1/3 of C6's work homeless. It may have been earlier than 2007 but not much and certainly feels recent. Also undeniably it was a "marvel sues people" related move.
Out of curiosity, did Marvel ever actually sue any of the fan sites? I mean, actually file a claim and take them to court?
I ask because there is a world of difference between sending out a C&D and taking someone to court. Not that a C&D isn't scary (that's the point of it), but it doesn't have any legal force. It's not as though a judge can hold someone in contempt or have their computer seized or their site shut down because they ignored a C&D. It just notifies the recipient that the sender doesn't like what he's doing. One doesn't even have to be a lawyer to send one, thought it is also trivial to have a lawyer do it.
So, did Marvel actually go to a court and have a fan site shut down or fined or anything? Or did this never get beyond the nasty letter stage?
Quote from: lugaru on February 26, 2008, 03:51:53 AM
Quote from: Previsionary on February 25, 2008, 03:13:41 PM
RE: Lugaru
Hrm, I don't recall anything happening in 2007 involving Marvel. If you're talking about NPI, I'm pretty sure that was HQ taking the site back to its root as an "original" content site for FF/FFVTTR. Otherwise, I'm kinda a bit in the dark about that statement.
The NPI move complicated things for me given how much good material was there but they still have marvel/dc characters on their meshworks site. I was thinking more of Alex Freedom Fortress and all of the marvel content being dropped, effectively leaving 1/3 of C6's work homeless. It may have been earlier than 2007 but not much and certainly feels recent. Also undeniably it was a "marvel sues people" related move.
I don't even remember alex's fortress ever having marvel skins to begin with after it re-opened/changed hosts. Anyway, c6's skins weren't homeless even then. They were linked to and hosted on gamma patrol and it stayed that way until GPL effectively went down.
Alex's Freedom Fortress Did host Marvel Skins and Meshes, and did remove them all over concern that Marvel seemed, at that time, to be actively pursuing sites with Marvel based content. Whether Marvel were actively pursuing sites or merely perceived to be doing so is something thats open to debate. In retrospect, it seems that they weren't.
I would have to agree that after all this time, Marvel do not seem to be overly troubled by the skins, meshes and mods enjoyed by a few thousand people in this community, any more than DC are. And I think thats sensible on their part. Nobody makes any money, it's free publicity for their characters, and is arguably 'fan art'.
Quote from: ips on February 26, 2008, 10:19:38 AM
Quote from: tommyboy on February 26, 2008, 09:52:55 AM
Alex's Freedom Fortress Did host Marvel Skins and Meshes, and did remove them all over concern that Marvel seemed, at that time, to be actively pursuing sites with Marvel based content.
iirc... alex's move to remove that content was a year or 2 later than the skindex incident. if not that amount of time, it was still a large amount of time (at least) to say marvel was doing anything "at that time".
lol - i'm dizzy trying to say that...
Yes, there was a gap between the 'skindex incident' and Alex being uncomfortable with hosting Marvel content. How much of a gap, I honestly cannot recall. You may be right in that it was a long time.
I'm just clarifying, as someone who had (Marvel) content hosted there, that
A) There WAS Marvel content there at one point, and
B) That the choice to remove it WAS
influenced by the skindex C&D, amongst other things, as far as I can recall.
If it was a long time after the C&D, you'd have to ask Alex himself about any delay, as my memory gets hazy about it. I know I did 'discuss' it with him at the time of removal, but can't recall all the details.
I'm reasonably confident that, had there been no Skindex C&D, Alex would not have felt he needed to remove the Marvel stuff. I could be very wrong about that, but that is both my impression and recollection of events. I'll ask him about it, since I can't remember clearly.
The only reason that the Skindex was threatened was because of TWO mentions of skinning licenced characters in Wizard Magazine; One for Sims and one for FF. Wizard's take was that it was really cool. Marvel's take was "They're stealing from us!" DC has never threatened anyone over this, no letters were sent. DarkJared made the decision himself to remove the Marvel content from his site, leaving the DC and original stuff, but the whole thing left such a bad taste in his mouth that he killed the site. Marvel did not shut the site down, it's owner did. A while after that, IG made it clear that Marvel scared the hell out of them. And would brook no discussions of characters that IG didn't own. FR continued as it always has, creating and displaying copyrighted characters. And have WE ever been served a C&D by Marvel?
No. We never did.
Marvel was still on the prowl when CoH started and people were running as Marvel characters in that game.
Marvel is a bit sue crazy. It was said at that time that Marvel was developing their own MMORPG, but years later, where is it? Much ado about nothing. All they succeeded in doing was angering their core fanbase.
Yeah, for a while I was in the same place as those website owners and actually emailed several people at Marvel (I dont have contacts, just the addresses you see on their site) saying that modding is the best thing that has ever happened to them, that meshing maniacs like Ink found himself getting into older comics thanks to freedom force and that they should spotlight the mod comunity instead of persecuting them. No response of course, since I guess they where neighter interested in persecuting or spotlighting.
Still if I was marvel (or DC) I would find myself encouraging people to use other franchises to introduce new readers to intellectual property without ruining exclusive liscencing deals since it's all amateur and non profit stuff.
Quote from: Protomorph on February 26, 2008, 08:39:13 PM
It was said at that time that Marvel was developing their own MMORPG, but years later, where is it? Much ado about nothing.
A quick rundown of what happened to it: Marvel Universe Online was in development for a while at Cryptic Studios, who made City of Heroes. But then around Xmas Microsoft, the publisher for Marvel Universe, cancelled it. Cryptic is now working on Champions Online.
(Champions, for those who aren't old pen-and-paper RPG geeks, was one of the first supehero-based pen-and-paper RPGs. It was one of the main inspirations for both City of Heroes and Freedom Force.)