This is the thread where you can talk about both the cool parts and the shortcomings of the show without spoiling the enjoyment of those who don't want to dwell on that. If you're one of those people, it would be a good idea not to come in here.
My thoughts on this week:
[spoiler]
Claire's storyline was horrible. At the beginning of every scene dealing with that, I thought that it couldn't possibly get any worse. Then it did. It made me dislike West even more (seriously, "I don't have to listen to my parents because I can fly"? "you're better than her because you're hot and have a power"?), and I'm actually starting to dislike Claire too. Their whole plan was so incredibly stupid. Why risk detection over this? If Claire had left blood on the bleachers where she fell, or someone had wandered over to where they were, it would have been all over. And even when they completely succeeded, they left an eyewitness and a police report mentioning Claire supposedly dying and a flying guy. Exactly what the Bennets need to stay undercover. And as unlikeable as Debby was, I really don't think she deserved to have that happen to her.
Maya and Alejandro were also really stupid. Near the beginning, they talked about hiring a coyote to get them across the border. What happened to that plan? Did they seriously think they could just find a hole in the fence and drive through it?
Peter ending up in the future has potential, but it feels a lot like a rehash of last season. The end of it did chill me like many cliffhangers from the previous season, but that was mostly because of the promo after the episode. It's a shame that it needed that. Also, the times square green screen effect was horrible.
The pacing was better, but still not that good. Monica did basically nothing. Sure, she got an Ipod with a lot of mimicable videos on it, but she could easily have done something equivalent to that by herself.
Hiro's storyline had some very good parts (I love the scene where Kensei got stabbed), but there were some big weaknesses. There's the very badly done love triangle, and much of it didn't flow well. Like, why did Hiro teleport away when he was shot at? They showed time stopping, so he didn't just reflexively teleport away. With time stopped, he could have just moved the musket ball so it wouldn't hit him, then walked back to where he was and restarted time. And would it really take several hours to cut through a metal chain with a sword?
On the positive side, HRG is awesome. His storyline was excellent. Mohinder's was also pretty good.
[/spoiler]
I must say that, overall, I liked this episode much more than the last couple. Not all of the arcs were great or anything, but the pacing was much better and I didn't find myself rolling my eyes nearly as much and wondering, "Why are they showing us this?" and feeling like the writers are deliberately writing arcs where nothing really happens.
[spoiler]
I have to agree about the Claire/West story being pretty poor, which has sadly been the case for much of this season. I have to assume that doing something that gets reported to the police is the exact sort of thing that HRG would have warned Claire against. Moreover, it's pretty contrived that the plan to embarrass Debby involved using both Claire and West's powers. And, being caught drinking isn't really much of a social comedown in high school anyway, though, by unplanned coincidence, it left an opening on the cheer squad.
(Not that I feel any sympathy for Debby, though. She's one of these mean little snots who maintains her status by trying to make other people miserable. I wouldn't have cared if they had found some way to make her walk around school naked with a target painted on her butt.)
I know the point of this storyline is at least partly to have Claire and West have a believable relationship, likely to be followed by a formulaic tragedy or separation later on. But, the scene where West first takes Claire flying and they wind up on the beach has been the high point between them so far and this other nonsense is just making them less likable, to me anyway.
I am less disappointed with Maya/Alejandro/Sylar. I mean, their arc for the whole season so far has been 90% holding pattern (which is pretty bad considering Maya and Alejandro are totally new characters). But at least this episode is showing a little character development in that there is friction between Maya and Alejandro, that Maya is corruptible, and that Sylar may be amenable to a change in strategy, which might be interesting. It's still kinda slow and I am not really invested in the twins yet, but at least there is some motion and they are getting to the point where they could meet up with some of the other specials.
Peter and Caitlin: yawn. I really want to like Peter's arc because the story will almost certainly come to center around it, but it seems like just another stalling tactic so far. They got all the way to Montreal and what did they find? A name. Pfeh. Honestly, they could have just skipped all of Peter's storyline so far this season and just had him show up in the future with amnesia and Caitlin and told what little needed to be told of the last several episodes in some expository dialog ("I woke up in a crate in Ireland with no memory and this woman has been helping me.") or in a flashback. What's worse, I haven't seen the preview of the next episode, but this has the earmarks of another foray into nowhere. Peter and Caitlin will spend a short time in 2008, learn some detail about what causes that future or what needs to be done, and then blip back to finally engage one of this season's plot themes.
And, for just losing her brother is a particularly gruesome way, Caitlin didn't seem especially broken up about it.
I think the point of the Monica storyline in this episode was to advance the idea that The Company isn't just a case of moral black and white. It is showing signs of compromising in its methods and people like Bob are listening when Mohinder takes the approach that doing good is as much about means as about ends.
BTW, I like the Bob character. He's supposed to be a bad guy, but I keep expecting him to counter one of Mohinder's objections with "Am-I-right-or-am-I-right-or-am-I-right?" (http://home.graffiti.net/stumpyanker:graffiti.net/emoticons/laughing.gif) I hope he is around for a while, though I suspect that he may only have an episode or two left before he joins Kaito et alii in the show's mortis personae.
I also think that Mohinder's new partner is more Jessica than Nikki. I was almost expecting to see a tattoo at some point, but I guess we will wait for that.
Hiro's story was better this week than last, but it's still a little forced, I'll agree. And, my biggest problem with that chain-cutting scene was that Kensei used his valuable sword to cut that chain at all. No swordsman would risk dulling or chipping his best blade by hacking away at a steel chain with it. Yeesh.
I like the fact that HRG has a certain cool forcefulness in his arc. But, he is getting sort of ruthless. I mean, what was the point of killing Ivan? He has already said that The Company already knows that he is around and is looking for him. He could have removed Ivan's memories of the visit and slipped away. By the time Ivan or The Company realized what had happened, it could be weeks later. Batman is cool, tough, and scary. But he doesn't pull the trigger. HRG is drawing lines between himself and those I think of as good guys. But, the story arc is great. (I am not one of those who thinks everyone needs to be likable to be watchable. I enjoyed The Sopranos and I never thought any of those characters - mobsters, cops, wives, kids, celebrity guests and other peripheral schlubs, etc. - were very likable.)
And, I think you have zeroed in on a good point in that the romances on this show are a serious weak aspect of it. I'm not sure if it's just the formulaic writing or if there is just so little chemistry on screen. I don't mind romance and a good portrayal of realism involves people pursuing some sort of love life, but none of what is going on this season is compelling to me. Last season, I thought the Hiro-Charlie romance was great; this season, the romance just grates.
[/spoiler]
My personal opinion on the show now: Just watching it, pretty much for the sake of watching it. Little to nothing makes sense, from the powers, to physics, to character interactions, to romantic(!) entanglements...the list goes on. Its a good show...if you ignore pretty much a lot of whats been established. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely Luh-huh-huv the show, but I do oh so like complaining just a tad bit more :P
Lets start with a few examples...
Maya and Alejandro:
[spoiler]Yes, it WAS nice to get that tiny itty bit of sadistic character development from Sylar...but thats pretty much all I got from this. Same holding pattern, except - Sylar. Yes, Maya and Alejandro argue, but because of Sylar. Yes, people finally properly die from this disease, but because Sylar stopped Alejandro. Oh yeah, and death from disease! ...Um. Why? It's been shown that Alejandro can cure someone even after they've gone all full-stage black eyed, even after a long period - woman who helped them through that pipe, to name one, cops and jailbird, to name two, three and four. Why leave them to die? Alejandro could call it back and they'd spend a few minutes going WTH happened while they hightail it out of there. Bit silly.[/spoiler]
Claire and West:
[spoiler]Oh, sweet mother of Jehosafat. Where did this guy learn the meaning of discrete? Getting noticed by the cops = huge tipoff to the company. Hello, have you heard of blood spatter?! Come on, she hit her damn head and blood was running out of her mouth! Broken bone fragments, lost teeth, any number of things would be falling out of her. Although, considering the height she fell from, I'm surprised anything above her thighs was damaged, I mean, she fell straight down. It wasn't even that high! Sheesh. Also - what high school, in this modern day and age, doesn't have security cameras? Even in Podunk County with a grand total of 50 people the high school would have security cameras. Major creepiness with the parents...how does Claire even like this guy? Because he has a power? Wha? Although then again she was falling all over Peter when she discovered him, maybe its just her fetish or something. I'll have to join the 'West is with the company' bandwagon, but on the subject of his parents...he doesn't have to have run away from home, he could fly in and stop over without his parents ever knowing...Although a locked window would be a pain :D (Note: Even flying weirdos need to lay their head somewhere to sleep (meaning grounded or at the very least highrise building or tree, which is all sorts of uncomfortable/noticable - not like that would matter to Mr Subtlety)) [/spoiler]
Speaking of Peter...:
[spoiler]Totally agree with Stumpy. Absolutely zero advance to their storyline over the past few weeks...they could have started it off here and we'd have missed nothing. There's not even any development cos Tada! He has amnesia, and development = 0 when its reset. Heck, he won't even have any cool scars to remind him of this experience, because of healing. Yeah, his chick seemed REALLY upset her brother had been, you know, flash fried, but hey. That could be shown offscreen, right? The future seems really, really familiar...weapon of mass death...hmmm...that seems familiar. Maybe instead of Biological or Nuclear next time they'll go for New York being destroyed by the man made of water. They could even reuse footage! Heh. Poor New York. I mean, yeah, theres a reason why shows/movies always destroy New York/Manhattan but for the life of me it escapes me right now[/spoiler]
HRG...WOO! Love the guy. No complaints here, except the whole "Didn't have to kill him just wipe his memory" thing, but I take that as an integral part of his storyline/character, one of the few I feel they nailed just right. He's willing to go to hell to protect his family...awww, cherish his twisted blackened morality
Mohinder:
[spoiler]I have nice things to say about him...Nope, still stupid smart guy. Love him to bits though, hes so damn adorable! Being all sciency and moronic at the same time...you have heard of a placebo, right, Doctor? Inject water, pretend to have it not work, and say to Bob biological removal of an inherent ability would be homicidal, considering the way some abilities work. If you removed Claires, would it just remove her ability as it is, or all the effects? Ugh. Sliced, diced, burnt Claire, on a plate. Or even just tell Monica to fake it, because the companys not in her best interests. Although the whole subject of video cameras seems to make that a moot point, and things worked out for the best anyways. Bless. [/spoiler]
Hiro:
[spoiler]Oh man, is this going so to how I planned. It's stupid, but it's going how I want it to go. I mean, I knew Takezo turns out to be, you know, petty and mean and a downright scoundrel, caring more about personal gain than being the saviour of the entire future, but hey, this leaves him time to redeem himself or something. Who here would ignore the advice of a man from the future? Hands up? Anyone? No? Didn't think so. Dumbest. Guy. Ever. He already knows hes immortal, and almost impossible to kill to boot (Could always be vaporized. That would kill him) so why not nudge the guy from the future for a few tips in the money department? And Hiro, Hiro, Hiro...Did we already forget about Charlie? Talk about love'em and leave'em. Did it seem abrupt to anyone else that she twigged?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I don't believe that West is with The Company. Of course, his "I was abducted" story and the tattoo could just be a cover designed to engender trust among any specials he meets. But, it seems like if he knew that Claire was a special, then he would have checked her out and known who she is and who her father is and then there is no way he would reveal that he has a vendetta against HRG. Why risk that Claire might tell her dad and, even if she didn't, why make it so that she will never let him meet her dad, on whom I am sure The Company would love to keep tabs? If he worked for The Company, he wouldn't throw this wall between himself and Claire and, by proxy, between himself and HRG.
I think it's more likely that he doesn't work for The Company and he is going to be legitimately surprised when he finds out that Claire's dad is HRG, possibly leading to some sort of romantic melodrama between West and Claire. I think that's the angle the writers are likely to play. But, either way, I don't see him as being undercover for The Company.
But there is something a little mysterious and a little off about his being a student. But it's probably just because he looks so much older than a high school kid. The comic makes it seem that he's just a kid with a special power who thinks of himself as a loner, not as a secret agent.
[/spoiler]
AICN is reporting that due the the looming writers strike, Heroes:Origins is effectivley cancelled :(
NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
Looks like Protomorph either exceeded the board limit for exclamation points per post or his poor shift key gave out at the end there. :P
So, um, what the heck is Heroes: Origins?
Heroes: Origins was a planned spinoff. Each episode would introduce a person with a power, then chronicle their personal journey. It would take place apart from the main story, though occasionally there may be references (Kring used the example of a mailman character delivering mail to the Bennet house in an interview). It was planned to run for 6 episodes after the Season 2 finale. Kevin Smith was signed on to direct the first episode.
Not too worried that they may not extend the series with Origins. They really need to concentrate on getting back to basics with their main story. My wife and I are both clearly bored with this season so far, just watching by rote. Couldn't care less about Hiro in the past. Miss my favorite psycho blonde. Not thrilled with Claire hooking up with a flying peeping Tom. (Although I didn't mind her using her powers to get one over on the head cheerleader ... to me that was no worse than Clark going back to the diner at the end of Superman II and beating up on the local bully.) Still, can't buy Peter not wanting to know everything about himself ... or his Irish girlfriend INSISTING on it, now that it's resulted in her brother's death. Still can't buy for a moment that our Dr. friend for a second was going to inject the girl with that goo, so there was no drama there for me, no real tension. And the biggest let down is that they still don't have Nichelle Nichols DO anything. What a waste. Equally confusing is the fact that no matter how long Hiro "remains" in the past, why he can't come back to today TODAY ... unless he lived his entire life in the past and died there, which we know didn't happen because we've already seen "future Hiro" in the present on the train. ARRRGGGGHHHHH!
It's a shame that Heroes wound up on NBC and the 4400 wound up on cable. 4400 stories seem more compelling and would be even better with the NBC budget behind them.
Still, I continue to watch ... out of habit and hope ... Not sure that would be the case if anything interesting came on opposite it.
You miss the point of Origins, AS. While a spinoff, it wasn't related AT ALL to the main story, and wasn't actually going to air while Heroes was still on- the overall goal was for Heroes to take less breaks (as the two massive breaks it took last year hurt the series), but as a result of less breaks, the season would effectively end sooner.
Origins was their answer- a 6 episode "mini" focusing on individual heroes not in the main cast to extend the season to where a normal TV show would end; plus the gimmick of allowing the audience to vote- with the winner joining the main cast the following season. I thought;heck I think it's a fantastic idea and I'm sorry it won't be happening.
As for your other complaints, I believe you're right on (with the exception of Future Hero- that Hiro ceased to exist when the bomb didn't go off. I also think their going to bring Hiro back to the main characters present and just use the "well, he doesn't have good control over his powers" excuse to explain why.) but I think the show is beginning to turn itself around and rise back to last year's heights, and I'm upset that the writers strike will probably cut that rise short.
I'm pretty sure it was the other way around. Heroes was still going to take that second break, but Origins would air in it's place. They are nowhere near ahead enough to run the whole season solid like that without that break.
On bredon7777's speculation that they are going to return Hiro to the same present the rest of the characters are at, some months after he disappeared to 1671 instead of just after he left, I agree. And I think it's a good idea. 1) I think that simplifies the storyline, since the other approach would tend to invalidate much of the current season's present-day stories. And 2), I find it believable that he doesn't have great control of his time traveling. To think otherwise would be to deny the premise of the entire 1671 arc, since he certainly didn't consciously decide to go there. He seems to have developed better control over stopping time and moving from place to place. But the actual jumping back in time is something I don't think we've seen him master.
He seemed to be pretty confident about jumping back to the present. Also, he only ended up in the past when he was forced to jump out with no preparation and concentration.
I am willing to buy, however, that his time jumping is not quite exact, just not that it's that far off.
Has anybody else heard about this:
http://www.heroesrevealed.com/news/heroes-may-end-at-11th-episode/
QuoteAs you may know, Heroes Season 2 is planned 22-23 episodes long, but first 11 were labeled as "Volume 2″. 11th episode, which will be air on December 3th, planned to be last episode of Volume 2...
Unfortunately, that 11th episode may be last episode of season 2 as well, because of the writer's strike, again!
Our Michael Ausiello just reported :
Heroes' second season may be coming to a close a lot sooner than expected due to the forthcoming apocalypse, also known in some circles as the damn writers' strike.
Sources confirm that the show is going back and shooting an alternate ending to the Dec. 3 episode that, if used, would allow the episode to function as a season finale in the event of a strike. Originally, the episode was only supposed to serve as the conclusion of the current "Generations" arc. Should an 11th-hour agreement be reached and a strike averted (fingers crossed!), the alt ending would likely be scrapped.
In related news, the reality of this whole thing is only now hitting me. And I'm not happy.
Well, crap. :(
Yeah, that is too bad. This whole writer's strike stinks, and it's over a premise which, I hate to say it, but the writers are clearly in the wrong here. At least for now.
The major issue is money form online distribution--but online distribution is so new that no one's making any money from it anyway. That will change eventially, then it will be an actual issue, but to be demanding more money for it now. . .
Cat, it's not just about online distribution -- its about getting paid for DVDs. And that's a "now" issue.
Writers should get their fair share.
You're both right - the writers are clearly wrong about online distrubition (and I say that AS an aspiring writer) though they should be paid their fair share for DVD's; I think we can all live with the extra whole four cents they desire.
The studios however are wrong for insisting that those two issues are linked. Were the studios to treat them as seperate issues, from what I've read, I really think some sort of compromise could be reached rather quickly.
So the current story arc was always supposed to end in December? And it's still this padded to stretch it out? Wow. Anyway, here's hoping the writer's guild strike is a short one, and that the second storyline of the season gets made.
The two parts of the season were intended to have different storylines, one for the first 11 , and the other for the rest.
QuoteCat, it's not just about online distribution -- its about getting paid for DVDs. And that's a "now" issue.
Writers should get their fair share.
Not really. As someone else said, they are being wrongly linked together. A few reports I have read have said that the production company's are not as adamant about DVDs. There is an issue, but they're willing to hear what the writers have to say and negotiate on that.
It's online distribution that is the issue that they are not willing to negotiate, saying simply that they aren't making any money to give them. Which is true. Give it a few years, and then they ask for money, but for now it's a future moneymaking business, not a present one.
actually, there is some but very limited routes in which money is being made via the online distribution route. that amount of money is going to increase though in the next few years. The money that is being made is off places like ITunes where you can buy the movies for download and I believe there are similar sites that allow movies to be rented via download.
And Amazon has an arrangement where many TV shows available for download on a per episode basis, often before the DVDs are actually released. I haven't tried it, but I noticed when checking out the release date on a DVD set for a show and saw I could buy it a month early at US$1.99 per episode. I haven't tried it because they require use of their player (which may be fine, but I am hesitant about that) and I kind of like the DVD extras. But, whatever further refinements to the concept, it has arrived.
It has arrived, yes, but is it making money? The answer is no. Give it a few years and it will, though.
As of October 17th, the iTunes store has sold over 100million TV episodes, and at a regular price of 1.99USD each, I find it very hard to believe that studios aren't making money off that. If television studios were not making money at this point, they would stop making their shows available in this way as it would clearly just be hurting more lucrative methods of getting their shows out there (like DVD sales.)
Quote from: bredon7777 on November 04, 2007, 06:24:21 AM
You're both right - the writers are clearly wrong about online distrubition (and I say that AS an aspiring writer) though they should be paid their fair share for DVD's; I think we can all live with the extra whole four cents they desire.
The studios however are wrong for insisting that those two issues are linked. Were the studios to treat them as seperate issues, from what I've read, I really think some sort of compromise could be reached rather quickly.
Online distribution is the wave of the future. It is how I regularly watch the shows I like ever since I stopped paying for cable service in my apartment. I think the writers have good reason to ask for a piece of that pie.
Still, the whole strike is ridiculous. In the end, everyone will lose money and people will actually start reading books and becomming pro-active. I've already read 1 and a half in the past week. Very dangerous for society if you ask me [end sarcasm].
The reason I think the writers are unwilling to listen to the "we aren't making money online" statement, is that the same thing happened with home video in the early '80s. The writers' guild agreed to take a small cut of that pie, because, at the time, it wasn't making much money. That's why they are currently getting hosed on DVD sales, and it seems to be why they're unwilling to compromise much on what they see as the next big thing.
Regarding the writers strike . . .
thank goodness I am not union yet.
:D
I think they should hire me as a scab writer. Then I'll consult with all of you guys and we'll write a show with actual character development that makes sense . . .
Seriously, I was already planning to see if there was interest in a virtual season over in the fan-fiction forum once the episodes run out...
Man, that was a fantastic episode! Great stuff, I don't really have many complaints at all, and I'm really happy to see most of my speculation has come true. I am annoyed that HRG and Claire are STILL not being honest with each other, but we're moving quickly to a resolution.
Agreed! The show I love is back, just in time for the writers to go on strike.
Quote from: bredon7777 on November 05, 2007, 07:11:43 PM
Agreed! The show I love is back, just in time for the writers to go on strike.
Not all writers are going on strike. A lot are, but not all. So far, I haven't found any information saying that Heroes won't finish up all 24 episodes of Season 2.
Quote from: kkhohoho on November 05, 2007, 07:17:54 PM
Quote from: bredon7777 on November 05, 2007, 07:11:43 PM
Agreed! The show I love is back, just in time for the writers to go on strike.
Not all writers are going on strike. A lot are, but not all. So far, I haven't found any information saying that Heroes won't finish up all 24 episodes of Season 2.
That's because, as of yet, they still intend to finish with a full season. There are a number of episodes already filmed and waiting - it will only become an issue if the strike goes on for weeks or months.
Quote from: Talavar on November 05, 2007, 07:23:54 PM
Quote from: kkhohoho on November 05, 2007, 07:17:54 PM
Quote from: bredon7777 on November 05, 2007, 07:11:43 PM
Agreed! The show I love is back, just in time for the writers to go on strike.
Not all writers are going on strike. A lot are, but not all. So far, I haven't found any information saying that Heroes won't finish up all 24 episodes of Season 2.
That's because, as of yet, they still intend to finish with a full season. There are a number of episodes already filmed and waiting - it will only become an issue if the strike goes on for weeks or months.
I wish that was true, but sadly it's not:
http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry/TVGuide-Editors-Blog/Ausiello-Report/Strike-Fallout-Heroes/800026358
Quote from: TV guide
Heroes' second season may be coming to a close a lot sooner than expected due to the forthcoming apocalypse, also known in some circles as the damn writers' strike.
Sources confirm that the show is going back and shooting an alternate ending to the Dec. 3 episode that, if used, would allow the episode to function as a season finale in the event of a strike.
They're currently planning to end the season Dec 3, though I don't think that they didn't
intend not to have a full season- they're just bowing to the inevitable consequences of the strike.
Everything I read gives me no indication this will be resolved quickly. I predict, myself, at a minimum, that it will last until June- when the actors will go on strike. Once the actors join with the writers, and only then, will they have enough power to settle this thing, I think.
I don't see how that linked article invalidates what I said - they have a number of episodes ready - those to air through the rest of November - and they're making contingency plans for if the strike continues longer than that.
The contigency plan is to end the season Dec 3. There has been nothing printed anywhere about airing a full season of episodes if the strike goes on longer than that.
I mean I really wish there was- no one on this board wants a full season writers strike or no, more than me. But it just aint gonna happen (unless the strike gets settled within the next week- which I really don't see happening), and there is no evidence anywhere that they're going to make more episodes if the strike doesn't get settled soon.
Now if I misunderstood you, please clarify and I'll apologize. But I'm reading your position as 'Regardless of how long the writers strike goes on, Heroes is going to finish out the season with 24 episodes", and no matter how much we both would like it to be, that's just simply not the case.
On a slightly related note, I'm looking for a little help on finding this week's episode (not online.....if I want to watch something longer than 5 minutes, it'd better be on an actual TV sized screen, not on the laptop.....[sidetrack] movies on an iPod? are you freaking serious??? [/sidetrack]).
I forgot to reset the clock on the VCR until it was too late tonight, so I recorded an hour of stuff that I don't want. I know Sci-Fi was re-airing them last season, but I haven't noticed that this time around. Is any network/cable channel showing this week's episode again some other time during the week that I can catch it? If anyone knows what channel specifically for the Seattle area market, all the better.
Quote from: Panther_Gunn on November 06, 2007, 03:46:59 AM
On a slightly related note, I'm looking for a little help on finding this week's episode (not online.....if I want to watch something longer than 5 minutes, it'd better be on an actual TV sized screen, not on the laptop.....[sidetrack] movies on an iPod? are you freaking serious??? [/sidetrack]).
I forgot to reset the clock on the VCR until it was too late tonight, so I recorded an hour of stuff that I don't want. I know Sci-Fi was re-airing them last season, but I haven't noticed that this time around. Is any network/cable channel showing this week's episode again some other time during the week that I can catch it? If anyone knows what channel specifically for the Seattle area market, all the better.
...
Quote from: Previsionary on October 30, 2007, 04:57:27 PM
Just popping in here to give a general announcement:
As many of you may or may not know, Heroes season 1 and 2, will now be showing on G4tv with viewer interaction with the cast (Edit: Live Heroes Post Show) after the episode airs. Last weekend, they had a 3 day marathon of season 1.
Anyway, I figured I'd let people know since this is the third channel that shows the show (the second being sci-fi).
Anyway, they typically run a marathon including showing the last episode, then do the live post show on Saturday. :P
Quote from: bredon7777 on November 05, 2007, 09:47:30 PM
The contigency plan is to end the season Dec 3. There has been nothing printed anywhere about airing a full season of episodes if the strike goes on longer than that.
I mean I really wish there was- no one on this board wants a full season writers strike or no, more than me. But it just aint gonna happen (unless the strike gets settled within the next week- which I really don't see happening), and there is no evidence anywhere that they're going to make more episodes if the strike doesn't get settled soon.
Now if I misunderstood you, please clarify and I'll apologize. But I'm reading your position as 'Regardless of how long the writers strike goes on, Heroes is going to finish out the season with 24 episodes", and no matter how much we both would like it to be, that's just simply not the case.
No, my position is, we may still get a full season of Heroes if the strike is resolved quickly. If the strike goes on for weeks or months, the best we can hope for is a season that has some kind of resolution in December.
Quote from: Talavar on November 06, 2007, 08:15:49 AM
Quote from: bredon7777 on November 05, 2007, 09:47:30 PM
The contigency plan is to end the season Dec 3. There has been nothing printed anywhere about airing a full season of episodes if the strike goes on longer than that.
I mean I really wish there was- no one on this board wants a full season writers strike or no, more than me. But it just aint gonna happen (unless the strike gets settled within the next week- which I really don't see happening), and there is no evidence anywhere that they're going to make more episodes if the strike doesn't get settled soon.
Now if I misunderstood you, please clarify and I'll apologize. But I'm reading your position as 'Regardless of how long the writers strike goes on, Heroes is going to finish out the season with 24 episodes", and no matter how much we both would like it to be, that's just simply not the case.
No, my position is, we may still get a full season of Heroes if the strike is resolved quickly. If the strike goes on for weeks or months, the best we can hope for is a season that has some kind of resolution in December.
Ok, agreed. Your position is essentially correct, though you appear to be much more optomistic than I am about the prospect of this being resolved quickly.
Sorry for misunderstanding.
Quote from: Previsionary on November 06, 2007, 07:38:35 AMQuote from: Previsionary on October 30, 2007, 04:57:27 PM
Just popping in here to give a general announcement:
As many of you may or may not know, Heroes season 1 and 2, will now be showing on G4tv with viewer interaction with the cast (Edit: Live Heroes Post Show) after the episode airs. Last weekend, they had a 3 day marathon of season 1.
Anyway, I figured I'd let people know since this is the third channel that shows the show (the second being sci-fi).
Anyway, they typically run a marathon including showing the last episode, then do the live post show on Saturday. :P
I'll be the first to admit that I did *not* read any of the rest of the thread before I posted, contrary to my usual habits. That being said, as far as I can tell from my channel surfing, G4TV doesn't seem to be a channel in the Comcast repetoire around here (which seems a little odd, now that I think about it). At the very least, it's not included in the list of channels that you don't have to pay extra for (on both regular and digital cable).
As for this week's episode, don't get me wrong. It was much better than the previous episodes this season. I really enjoyed many parts of it. But it definitely had problems.
[spoiler]
The pacing has really improved. With the exception of Sylar and the twins, the plots are finally starting to move.
I really enjoyed the Parkman vs. Parkman scenes, but it created some huge plotholes. For one, it says that Molly has been trapped in a dream of Matt's old house ever since she fell into a coma. That contradicts an online comic from a few weeks ago, which showed her trapped in a much scarier nightmare. For another, if Matt's powers include the ability to trap people in their nightmares and he's now starting to learn how to do it, why did he never do that in Five Years Gone? That ability sure would have come in handy in the confrontation at the Homeland Security building. Also, at the beginning of the episode, they were convinced that Maury was behind the killings. Unless I missed something, there was absolutely no evidence of that. And while I can see how he could have pulled off the attack on Angela (how and why would he mess with the lights, though?), the murder of Kaito doesn't fit with him at all. Of course, it could have been someone else, but the characters didn't realize that.
Mohinder is on the stupid pills again. He's already seen Bennet kill Thompson, why is he suddenly turning against Bennet because he killed some guy he's never met? Couldn't he at least call Bennet and talk to him about it?
It's good to see Peter back in the main story again, but with Caitlyn gone, the Irish storyline has had no long term effects whatsoever.
On the one hand, it's good to see that certain stupid actions did have consequences. On the other hand, that just underscores how stupid those actions were. HRG and Claire should really have known better.
I could tolerate all of the above if not for Claire's storyline. West totally ignored her desire to keep things secret, showing up uninvited at her house and introducing himself to her parents for no reason. And she just accepts this. Her tantrum at the end was horrible. It was incredibly annoying and very out of character. I'm really starting to dislike Claire as well as West, which is a shame considering she was one of my favorite characters last season.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Quote from: Conduit on November 06, 2007, 03:26:16 PM
I really enjoyed the Parkman vs. Parkman scenes, but it created some huge plotholes. For one, it says that Molly has been trapped in a dream of Matt's old house ever since she fell into a coma. That contradicts an online comic from a few weeks ago, which showed her trapped in a much scarier nightmare. For another, if Matt's powers include the ability to trap people in their nightmares and he's now starting to learn how to do it, why did he never do that in Five Years Gone? That ability sure would have come in handy in the confrontation at the Homeland Security building. Also, at the beginning of the episode, they were convinced that Maury was behind the killings. Unless I missed something, there was absolutely no evidence of that. And while I can see how he could have pulled off the attack on Angela (how and why would he mess with the lights, though?), the murder of Kaito doesn't fit with him at all. Of course, it could have been someone else, but the characters didn't realize that.
I don't really see Parkman's not using his power that way as a plothole. In the future presented in Five Years Gone, Parkman likely never tracked down his father and never learned that his father had a similar power and could do that, so he never tried to use his power in that way. Just because he doesn't use his power that way in the future, doesn't mean he couldn't theoretically do it, he probably just never thought he could so he didn't try.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Quote from: Adamence on November 06, 2007, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: Conduit on November 06, 2007, 03:26:16 PM
I really enjoyed the Parkman vs. Parkman scenes, but it created some huge plotholes. For one, it says that Molly has been trapped in a dream of Matt's old house ever since she fell into a coma. That contradicts an online comic from a few weeks ago, which showed her trapped in a much scarier nightmare. For another, if Matt's powers include the ability to trap people in their nightmares and he's now starting to learn how to do it, why did he never do that in Five Years Gone? That ability sure would have come in handy in the confrontation at the Homeland Security building. Also, at the beginning of the episode, they were convinced that Maury was behind the killings. Unless I missed something, there was absolutely no evidence of that. And while I can see how he could have pulled off the attack on Angela (how and why would he mess with the lights, though?), the murder of Kaito doesn't fit with him at all. Of course, it could have been someone else, but the characters didn't realize that.
I don't really see Parkman's not using his power that way as a plothole. In the future presented in Five Years Gone, Parkman likely never tracked down his father and never learned that his father had a similar power and could do that, so he never tried to use his power in that way. Just because he doesn't use his power that way in the future, doesn't mean he couldn't theoretically do it, he probably just never thought he could so he didn't try.
Molly told Matt about the man who could see her before the explosion. Since Hiro never interacted with either of them, that should have happened in the FYG timeline too. I don't see any reason why Matt wouldn't want to track down that guy in the FYG timeline, especially with the agenda against specials which he was a part of. And even if he didn't track Maury down, he should have been able to develop at least something approaching it on his own. Maury developed it on his own, after all, and Matt started projecting thoughts to Nathan even though Maury never told him that he could.
[/spoiler]
Quote from: Conduit on November 06, 2007, 03:26:16 PM
As for this week's episode, don't get me wrong. It was much better than the previous episodes this season. I really enjoyed many parts of it. But it definitely had problems.
[spoiler]
The pacing has really improved. With the exception of Sylar and the twins, the plots are finally starting to move.
I really enjoyed the Parkman vs. Parkman scenes, but it created some huge plotholes. For one, it says that Molly has been trapped in a dream of Matt's old house ever since she fell into a coma. That contradicts an online comic from a few weeks ago, which showed her trapped in a much scarier nightmare. For another, if Matt's powers include the ability to trap people in their nightmares and he's now starting to learn how to do it, why did he never do that in Five Years Gone? That ability sure would have come in handy in the confrontation at the Homeland Security building. Also, at the beginning of the episode, they were convinced that Maury was behind the killings. Unless I missed something, there was absolutely no evidence of that. And while I can see how he could have pulled off the attack on Angela (how and why would he mess with the lights, though?), the murder of Kaito doesn't fit with him at all. Of course, it could have been someone else, but the characters didn't realize that.
Mohinder is on the stupid pills again. He's already seen Bennet kill Thompson, why is he suddenly turning against Bennet because he killed some guy he's never met? Couldn't he at least call Bennet and talk to him about it?
It's good to see Peter back in the main story again, but with Caitlyn gone, the Irish storyline has had no long term effects whatsoever.
On the one hand, it's good to see that certain stupid actions did have consequences. On the other hand, that just underscores how stupid those actions were. HRG and Claire should really have known better.
I could tolerate all of the above if not for Claire's storyline. West totally ignored her desire to keep things secret, showing up uninvited at her house and introducing himself to her parents for no reason. And she just accepts this. Her tantrum at the end was horrible. It was incredibly annoying and very out of character. I'm really starting to dislike Claire as well as West, which is a shame considering she was one of my favorite characters last season.
[/spoiler]
Conduit, I don't think you're really applying enough thought to some of this, although I agree with some of your criticisms. Let's take a look:
[spoiler]Molly's prison: I didn't read this comic, but if that's true (and I believe you) then that's stupid. Maybe that was where she was at first? Ugh, we shouldn't have to play that game though. The comics should be canon, period, end of story.
Parkman's ability: Why did it manifest here? He was told he could do it and put in extraordinary situations. Those are two things that may never have happened in the alternate storyline. You're sort of comparing apples and oranges here. Think about it, he was CONVINCED that he couldn't do that type of thing. He probably never really pushed himself. I think that's one of his character's weaknesses, he doesn't really push himself very often. When he does, as in this episode, he's really capable of great good.
Mrs. Petrelli: I think you've got a point here, but my memory of that episode is a bit spoty. Maybe we only saw the "lights" from her perspective? If not, then maybe something else is at work?
Sulu's murder: Come on man, think about it. How did he die? A skinny guy in a hoodie ran into him and knocked him off a building, CRASHING into the pavement ALONG with him. Then he vanished. Hmm...who does that sound like? Oh right, the guy that is thin and can heal? Adam/Kensei!
I agree about the stupidity of HRG. When he was wrecking that guy's place I was like "he's not wearing gloves, he's GONNA' leave fingerprints. I'm just glad that they acknowledged that. I HOPE that this is part of a larger plan on his part, because I'd hate to think that he was that stupid and sloppy.
Yeah, I agree that Claire is being really stupid, and my wife and I have already decided that we don't like West.
One new thought, a lot of people are saying that they are starting to see the company differently. My wife and I were actually just talking about how we were starting to like Bob, and hoping that they were turning into a force for good. HOWEVER, in the previews for the next episode, there was a tiny snippet of Elle's finger shocking Peter while he was being held by the company. In the background we hear Bob say "Elle, he's not a toy." This implies that she works for or HAS worked for, the company, and that Bob knows about her. It also COULD mean that Bob's newfound conscience is just a blind. I hope not.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
QuoteAlso, at the beginning of the episode, they were convinced that Maury was behind the killings. Unless I missed something, there was absolutely no evidence of that. And while I can see how he could have pulled off the attack on Angela (how and why would he mess with the lights, though?), the murder of Kaito doesn't fit with him at all.
Actually, as seen in this episode, Maury uses his powers to manipulate others to do his dirty work for him, so none of that means anything. While Kaito seemed to recognize his assailant, he could just as easily have recognized one of Maury's trance victims.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 06, 2007, 04:44:40 PM
HOWEVER, in the previews for the next episode, there was a tiny snippet of Elle's finger shocking Peter while he was being held by the company. In the background we hear Bob say "Elle, he's not a toy." This implies that she works for or HAS worked for, the company, and that Bob knows about her. It also COULD mean that Bob's newfound conscience is just a blind. I hope not.
Or Bob is Elle's dad, whom she speaks with on the phone at the end of her episode.
[/spoiler]
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 06, 2007, 04:44:40 PM
One new thought, a lot of people are saying that they are starting to see the company differently. My wife and I were actually just talking about how we were starting to like Bob, and hoping that they were turning into a force for good. HOWEVER, in the previews for the next episode, there was a tiny snippet of Elle's finger shocking Peter while he was being held by the company. In the background we hear Bob say "Elle, he's not a toy." This implies that she works for or HAS worked for, the company, and that Bob knows about her. It also COULD mean that Bob's newfound conscience is just a blind. I hope not.
You complain about Bob's newfound conscience possibly being fake, because you saw the bit with Bob and Elle. However, Peter was held by the company before the show started. And if Bob's conscience is indeed newfound, then that would mean that it might not be a blind, because if he does act bad on the show, it might only be before he got his newfound conscience. ;)
Kk, I wouldn't say complain, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. As a matter of fact, I very much like the unfathomable nature of the Company, as long as it will EVENTUALLY be made clear. However, you're absolutely right. I hope next episode tells us!
Hitman: Whoops, I meant to say that!
Cat: No dice, the killer fell several stories and then disappeared.
How does that change what I said? I never said anything about the person being manipulated NOT having powers, now did I?
[spoiler]
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 06, 2007, 04:44:40 PM
One new thought, a lot of people are saying that they are starting to see the company differently. My wife and I were actually just talking about how we were starting to like Bob, and hoping that they were turning into a force for good. HOWEVER, in the previews for the next episode, there was a tiny snippet of Elle's finger shocking Peter while he was being held by the company. In the background we hear Bob say "Elle, he's not a toy." This implies that she works for or HAS worked for, the company, and that Bob knows about her. It also COULD mean that Bob's newfound conscience is just a blind. I hope not.
Tim Kring said at one point in an interview that Elle was raised within the company. So they definitely know about her, and I think what she said during her first appearance about being part of 'a company very concerned about keeping Peter out of trouble,' just adds that inside the show as well. [/spoiler]
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on November 06, 2007, 05:54:34 PM
How does that change what I said? I never said anything about the person being manipulated NOT having powers, now did I?
Well, (and this is assuming we can believe a word that comes out of Bob's mouth) we've been told that Adam is Maury's boss, so it isn't terribly likely that Maury is manipulating him.
I never said anything of that sort.
I was giving an even or situation. Two alternative situations. One or the other, most definitely not both.
*shrug* Okay.
Why is it that i find adam/kensei to be a joke as the big bad? ok from the view that he is over 400 years old and has been manipulating things for a long time....ok i can see that in a sense, becoming rich and powerfull and setting up the company, but where are we supposed to beleive that a regenerator/immortal is top dog, one to be scared of or impressed with? maury or sylar would seem way more convincing bad guys who could manipulate things and be able to defend themselves from harm, i hope we find out adam is a mimic also or has developed more than one power
well one thing is peter, claire. nathan and posibily mrs petrelli know the sweet spot to keep a regenerator down
I hope there is more to adam/kensei then meets the eye
Oh noes! I can see the thread descending into another time-travel discussion thread! *relating to Matts powers* Noooooooo! *head explodes prematurely
Well Starlock, look at Lex Luthor, he doesn't have any powers at all, but he's one of the greatest villains of all time. A man who is completely unstoppable, like Adam, who was also a mastermind, could be dangerous indeed. Every time you think you've put him down for the count, he comes back with a vengeance. Yeah, physically he may be no match for some of the heroes, but with a little tech and a few weapons (like Maury) he can be an incredible threat.
*cough cough* Vandal Savage :P
Excellent point Sevenforce, why didn't I think of that!
There's also Linderman from last season. All he could do was heal other people and he managed to be a pretty serious threat.
In other news, Kring recently gave an interview here (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20158840,00.html) where he admitted that the season has had problems. He talked about a lot of the things that we've been talking about. In particular, he admitted that the pace was too slow, the Feudal Japan arc should have taken only 3 episodes, and they don't do romantic storylines well. It's good to hear.
Quote
Yet while Heroes has finally found some dramatic traction, this second volume is pretty much a wash. The Dec. 3 episode has been retooled to function as a potential season finale — a move inspired by the writers' strike and a desire to give the show ''a clean slate'' when it goes back into production for Volume 3. At that point, Kring wants to craft a rebooted Heroes that can attract new fans and win back those who've tuned out: ''The message is that we've heard the complaints — and we're doing something about it.''
Here's hoping they don't make a clean slate and reboot by killing off everyone. :wacko:
I very much doubt that's what he meant.
But really, there are very few times when producers hear their fans like that. It's a great sign for the show's long-term future.
Technically, Adam could be considered an evil Immortal ala Highlander, except he's English instead of Scottish and we don't know if cutting off his head would actually kill him (but it sure would inconvenience him!).
If they want to improve the show for a third season, I have three suggestions:
1. Get rid of Maya and Alejandro. The Hiro in ancient Japan storyline may have been extended too long, but Maya and Alejandro's storyline is BORING and has been from the beginning. Hopefully, either their powers somehow ties into the big threat virus (doubt it) making them actually relevant or Sylar gets his powers back and kills both of them.
2. Kill off Sylar, and make it good. ie, don't give us a quick, lousy battle like the we got at the end of last season and have an identifiable corpse so we KNOW he's dead. And make it permanent.
3. Either de-power Nikki, have her get a grip (ie, get over DL and anything else she's feeling guilt over), or kill her off. Its getting old.
Quote from: GhostMachine on November 08, 2007, 02:20:04 AM
Technically, Adam could be considered an evil Immortal ala Highlander, except he's English instead of Scottish and we don't know if cutting off his head would actually kill him (but it sure would inconvenience him!).
If they want to improve the show for a third season, I have three suggestions:
1. Get rid of Maya and Alejandro. The Hiro in ancient Japan storyline may have been extended too long, but Maya and Alejandro's storyline is BORING and has been from the beginning. Hopefully, either their powers somehow ties into the big threat virus (doubt it) making them actually relevant or Sylar gets his powers back and kills both of them.
2. Kill off Sylar, and make it good. ie, don't give us a quick, lousy battle like the we got at the end of last season and have an identifiable corpse so we KNOW he's dead. And make it permanent.
3. Either de-power Nikki, have her get a grip (ie, get over DL and anything else she's feeling guilt over), or kill her off. Its getting old.
1. Maya and Alejandro's story should have been put in an
Origins episode. It would have made more sense there.
2. Sylar needs to go. And just kill him, don't turn it into an elaborate fight. Last season was as far as we should have gone with him anyway. This is a good example of why a good actor should have his fifteen minutes and then dropped. His character was solid in the last season and it made sense when he "died" then. But why bring him back when all he's done is bash people in the head and otherwise not done much of anything of interest.
3. Niki should just die as well. Her story ended last season when Jessica merged back into her main personality. There isn't much else to do with her.
Quote from: OutsiderNo11 on November 08, 2007, 09:23:56 AM
3. Niki should just die as well. Her story ended last season when Jessica merged back into her main personality. There isn't much else to do with her.
I disagree with that. There's a lot that they can do with Niki. She has a pretty useful power, a connection to the Company, and was involved with Linderman's death. They are plenty of potential hooks there. The problem with her is that the writers couldn't think of anything, so they pointlessly brought back the Jessica storyline, then resolved it again offscreen and replaced it with a slightly different form of crazy, then infected her with the virus. Really, the character deserves better.
I definitely agree with you about Sylar and Maya, though.
There's a lot they can do with all of their characters that doesn't involve killing them off. I'm actually a little tired of way they've been handling characters on the show. I find I can't appreciate new characters because I'm forced to just assume they're going to get killed off and it makes the show feel like it's a revolving door of characters. At least 8 characters who appeared in 3 episodes or more were killed off up to this point in the series. Instead of just killing off characters and bringing in new ones every four episodes, they just need to start utilizing the ones that they have.
I'm sure the twins will be plenty involved with the Virus storyline as long as the writers use them properly, so while their storyline has been agonizingly long and slow so far (one of those tempo problems that Tim Kring was talking about) doesn't mean they should just be offed.
Now that Niki's working with the company, and has been infected with the Virus, I can see her character becoming much more interesting until they inevitably kill her off.
And I must say, I like Sylar, and I hope they don't just kill him off. And I'm not just saying that because they're killing too many characters off. With Sylar's power, he has the chance to be an incredibly powerful villain, and with Peter being so damn powerful, they need to have someone who can at least slightly pose a challenge to him, instead of the route they'd likely take if they kill of Sylar, and bring in more and more powerful villains for Peter to have something to do.
It was my understanding that Zack Quento (Sylar) was going to be absent from Heroes for the latter half of the season anyways because of the new Star Trek movie he's in (he's getting all Spocked up), so even if they don't kill him off, he's not going to be around for Volume 3. I could be wrong, though.
Quote from: The Hitman on November 08, 2007, 01:29:19 PM
It was my understanding that Zack Quento (Sylar) was going to be absent from Heroes for the latter half of the season anyways because of the new Star Trek movie he's in (he's getting all Spocked up), so even if they don't kill him off, he's not going to be around for Volume 3. I could be wrong, though.
Of course, with the writer's strike it's very possible that those episodes may end up not being filmed at the same time he's filming the new Star Trek movie. So if they planned to write him out, they may not need to anymore.
Quote from: Conduit on November 08, 2007, 02:02:51 PM
Of course, with the writer's strike it's very possible that those episodes may end up not being filmed at the same time he's filming the new Star Trek movie. So if they planned to write him out, they may not need to anymore.
True, but if the writers are smart, they will anyways. Cool it with Sylar for a season, then have him be a "forgotten threat" or something.
:spoiler:
What looks like a piece of poor placement to me is that Hiro didn't come back to the exact time he left the future. He looks like he has pretty good control of his powers, so why wouldn't he go back to where he left off?
Can Adam really hold a grudge for nearly 500 years or so? I mean come on......build a bridge and get over it! Sure he could have been a king in Japan, but with is power he could have traveled anywhere in the world and started over.
From what I've been reading about the strike it seems the writers are a little greedy...are the production companies making money off of the internet distribution thing?
Quote from: thalaw2 on November 11, 2007, 12:47:23 AM
From what I've been reading about the strike it seems the writers are a little greedy...are the production companies making money off of the internet distribution thing?
No idea, but you know what I think would be funny? Other people are victims of this, and I assume that since the late night talk shows aren't being taped that the people working on those and other projects affected by the strike probably aren't getting paid. So I think it would be funny if the strike ends and whichever guilds\organizations the people losing work from the strike are represented by turn around and sue the writers guild.
I just thought of something.....didn't Peter leave the Irish chick behind in the future?
Quote from: thalaw2 on November 11, 2007, 12:47:23 AM
What looks like a piece of poor placement to me is that Hiro didn't come back to the exact time he left the future. He looks like he has pretty good control of his powers, so why wouldn't he go back to where he left off?
Hiro's always had trouble with the time travel part of his power. Of all the times he tried to time travel, he only once managed to end up when he wanted to go. The other times, he's usually overshot it by months or years. Considering the massive time difference that he teleported over, four months within the target is pretty good for him.
QuoteNo idea, but you know what I think would be funny? Other people are victims of this, and I assume that since the late night talk shows aren't being taped that the people working on those and other projects affected by the strike probably aren't getting paid. So I think it would be funny if the strike ends and whichever guilds\organizations the people losing work from the strike are represented by turn around and sue the writers guild.
They've announced that studios have already begun massive layoffs of rank and file workers. With the studios down they just don't need the everyday folks who work there anymore.
There are even speculations that the economy of California as a whole could begin to suffer if this goes on too long.
However, they won't be sued. If they are, and it works, striking is in effect illegal, since anyone else effected by a strike can now make things much, much worse for the strikers. Striking, and unions, would have a hard time even existing. No one would want to be held responsible for doing that.
Quote from: GhostMachine on November 11, 2007, 02:54:06 AM
I just thought of something.....didn't Peter leave the Irish chick behind in the future?
I had that same thought.
Quote from: thalaw2 on November 11, 2007, 10:03:15 PM
Quote from: GhostMachine on November 11, 2007, 02:54:06 AM
I just thought of something.....didn't Peter leave the Irish chick behind in the future?
I had that same thought.
Boy that would be a real bummer if Peter stopped the virus, thereby changing the timeline so the future he visited ceased to exist. Caitlin wouldn't even die, she would simply cease to exist at some point.
Quote from: Kommando on November 12, 2007, 12:59:44 AM
Quote from: thalaw2 on November 11, 2007, 10:03:15 PM
Quote from: GhostMachine on November 11, 2007, 02:54:06 AM
I just thought of something.....didn't Peter leave the Irish chick behind in the future?
I had that same thought.
Boy that would be a real bummer if Peter stopped the virus, thereby changing the timeline so the future he visited ceased to exist. Caitlin wouldn't even die, she would simply cease to exist at some point.
Not necessarily. She could simply be ejcted from that future to show up back in that warehouse,
Quote from: bredon7777 on November 12, 2007, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: Kommando on November 12, 2007, 12:59:44 AM
Quote from: thalaw2 on November 11, 2007, 10:03:15 PM
Quote from: GhostMachine on November 11, 2007, 02:54:06 AM
I just thought of something.....didn't Peter leave the Irish chick behind in the future?
I had that same thought.
Boy that would be a real bummer if Peter stopped the virus, thereby changing the timeline so the future he visited ceased to exist. Caitlin wouldn't even die, she would simply cease to exist at some point.
Not necessarily. She could simply be ejcted from that future to show up back in that warehouse,
Well I suppose if the writers want to do it the Disney way. But where's the fun in that? :P
OR the future could just change around her after the changes are made. Changing the past doesn't change the event that put her there(IE: Peter's power hiccup), just the future they went to.
He could go back and rescue her.
With his total lack of control?
I'm betting that Hiro will help him out instead.
Not thrilled with Niki's storyline for a couple of reasons:
[spoiler]
The MPD thing is now officially cliche. Plus, again- mental health semi-professional nitpick- It don't work that way. If they're not going to end it and end it soon, then Niki needs to die.
D.L. went out like a chump. If he was gonna die, why not have him die the hero he wouldve been last season, taking the bullet for his wife. This was just demeaning, not to mention unbeliavable- his assilant threw a punch THROUGH HIS HEAD, but thought- "Oh, ok yeah, a bullet will kill him." Nope, don't buy it.
[/spoiler]
Other than that, no complaints at all. Heck, I actually even cared about the emo wonder twins for the first time tonight. The show is rapidly regaining its former "must watch" status- just in time for the sadly shortened season finale.
Now, I may have missed the odd minute or two discussing with Mrs. Bredon- did they, or did they not cover what happened to Sylar?
Sylar was left out completely. He doesn't wake up until his first appearance in Season 2 anyway.
Anyway, some things I wouldn't say in the other thread.
[spoiler]
I agree about DL's death. For one thing, it makes no sense that he reacted so quickly with the punch, yet couldn't with the gun. Secondly, the guy just coming up to him and shooting him out of the blue for taking her away with little lead up? It would have gone down better had they had an argument about it first. I have no problems with him dying, and even due to jealously, but still, it's not fully believable.
The rest of that scene, however, I found to be very touching, the way he comes after her in spite of everything, and refuses to give up on her. That, plus the first scene, left me liking the character more than ever.
I personally think the whole Alehandro and Maya segment was completely and utterly worthless. There were some good scenes, but we didn't learn a single real thing that we didn't already know or guess. It's obvious that her powers killed a bunch of people and it was mistaken for murder. The exact circumstances did not turn out to be all that important, and we already know how dedicated he is to her. So why break up the good part of the story to show us that? I would have rather seen what was happening to Matt.
[/spoiler]
I also found it somewhat hilarious that...
[spoiler]
the woman the male Wonderless twin married couldn't even get through her own wedding without cheating on her new husband. I mean, come on!
[/spoiler]
edit: fixed spoiler tags
[spoiler]we have no idea how long niki was gone for so i suspect (given her past employment) that she might've been making that dude some serious cash. Guy coming in and taking away that paycheck, i don't think murder is too far out of the question for the guy.
not just a simple jealousy thing. although this just made me wish DL was back in the regular cast again. definitely one of the best characters, and him becoming a hero firefighter too, y'know actually being a hero. (the only others one Parkman and Hiro) Well, he's way up there on my list of favourites. [/spoiler]
I liked this episode enough that its issues didn't spoil my enjoyment. These issues still bothered me, but if they keep this level of quality up, I may be able to overlook them should they show up again in the future.
[spoiler]
I really think that the episode's format helped it avoid many problems that this show has had. DL is alive, and there isn't that much of a sense that the writers don't know what to do with Niki. West hasn't met Claire yet, so of course he doesn't show up. Maya's story is at its beginning, so it can do more besides just run through the same plot for the nth time. Sure, it didn't tell us much that we didn't know, but it was still enjoyable.
Major continuity error of the week: apparently the Company has drugs that suppress the abilities of specials. Interesting, considering how in Five Years Gone Mohinder made it very clear that even after years of extremely well funded research they hadn't even come close to finding a cure for special abilities. Sure, they were mainly interested in a permanent cure, but a law requiring all specials to go to a government clinic and take these drugs under supervision every day, with a harsh penaltly if they voluntarily missed a dose would have a similar effect. There was a scene where Sylar/Nathan talked to Mohinder about the measures they've put in place, restricting their movement, outlawing their breeding, etc. There's no way that he wouldn't have mentioned something like this. Also, why has the Company never put that stuff in darts and used it as a weapon a la X-Men 3? Or use it at all before this episode, for that matter.
I'm okay with the general idea of regeneration healing a memory wipe, but I don't like how they handled it. Why would Peter need to consciously make it happen? Regeneration has always been shown to be a totally passive ability, and he's activated it a few times before without doing anything to his amnesia.
I don't like the healing blood transfusion thing. If Kensei, and by extension Claire, can heal people via blood transfusion, then what, exactly, was the point of giving Linderman the ability to heal others? Beyond that, it doesn't fit with what we've seen so far. Regeneration, like all abilities, comes from the brain, so after blood has been removed from a regenerator's body and disconnected from the brain, it should just be ordinary blood.
The timeline has some problems if you start to think about it. Nathan was healed 3 weeks ago, and it definitely took the actor longer than that to grow his beard. A cargo ship would take at least 4 or 5 days to get from New York to Ireland, yet Peter seemed to be perfectly healthy when we saw him in episode 1. I guess I'll just have to repeat the last few lines of the MST3k theme song to myself and ignore it.
I actually enjoyed most of Niki's storyline this week, but I still don't like the direction that her storyline has taken. The MDP issue is really tired and should have ended with Jessica, and I agree with you guys about DL's death being really lame.
[/spoiler]
about the company and their drugs:
[spoiler]i don't think it actually is a specific power inhibitor drug. its probably just a boatload of tranqs and prozac or something. you think it seriously took two months for Peter to realize he was imprisoned? I think he was just so doped up to the point where he was unable to activate his powers. for example look at Niki's medication, I've got a friend who was under a similar medication for a while. he literally slept 12 hours a day, and ate a lot, Niki looked as if she was in a depressed paralyzed state.
I think the company just handed out tranqs and lied about it being a semi-cure.[/spoiler]
Quote from: detourne_me on November 13, 2007, 08:16:46 PM
about the company and their drugs:
[spoiler]i don't think it actually is a specific power inhibitor drug. its probably just a boatload of tranqs and prozac or something. you think it seriously took two months for Peter to realize he was imprisoned? I think he was just so doped up to the point where he was unable to activate his powers. for example look at Niki's medication, I've got a friend who was under a similar medication for a while. he literally slept 12 hours a day, and ate a lot, Niki looked as if she was in a depressed paralyzed state.
I think the company just handed out tranqs and lied about it being a semi-cure.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Agreed. And knowing that Peter's ability stems from his own thoughts, dulling his mind was the best way to deal with him. Same with Niki as her powers are similiar to Gladiator's in that her strength is relative to her confidence.
One thing that really annoyed about his episode was what happened to Sylar. They went over pretty much everyone else of importance, even giving us two scenes with Maya and Alejandro explaining how they realized their own powers. But for some reason, they didn't include a scene with Bob overlooking surgery on Sylar and administering the viral agent to test on him or him ordering "Michelle" to keep an eye on him. At this point I'm convinced that they could have done this whole season without Sylar at all and nothing much would have changed. I find it doubtful that he will even be a large part of the final story and even if he is, it won't be significant in comparison to others. I'm betting that Adam will kill him, after Sylar manages to acquire all his powers again.
I'm still convinced that they could have reserved Maya and Alejandro's story to Heroes Origins. Unless Maya is destined to kill Adam, then there is no point to their story, especially given the timeframe in Volume 2.[/spoiler]
About the drugs:
[spoiler]
First of all, Niki wasn't taking them. One of the pills that Peter was taking does look similar to Niki's pills, but he was taking a few others with it, and a lot of pills are red and white, at least on television. I doubt they were tranquilizers or anything. Peter seemed pretty normal when he was on them. Other than suppressing his powers, they didn't seem to do anything. So without any evidence to the contrary, I just have to assume that Elle was telling the truth, and they are a power inhibitor.
[/spoiler]
That was much improved. I really liked this episode, but I still have some things I'd like to say here.
[spoiler]
I have absolutely no complaints about Hiro and Matt's storylines. They were some of the best stuff this show has done. They more than make up for the bad parts of this episode. If they can keep this up, then I won't even think of giving up on this show. There were a few inconsistencies with them, though, like how no one at the funeral noticed the older Kaito. I was willing to forgive little things like that.
The Bennets' storyline was a very mixed bag. Parts of it were as good as last as some of last season's best. The other parts were very bad. West is as bad as ever (though somewhat less useless), and he's starting to seriously damage other characters. Claire is acting totally out of character. In her tantrum at the beginning of the episode, she said that she had never seen anyone more terrified than West when he saw HRG. So he was more terrified than her family at any point in Company Man, Peter when he was seconds away from killing millions of people and Jackie when Sylar killed her? Claire's known about the bag and tag missions for months, she's met a guy who killed his wife because HRG let him go without telling him the risks of his power. There's no reason for her to get upset now because of West, and the same goes for Sandra. He's been a total jerk to Claire since they've met and now she's willing to give up her whole family just to continue to see him, and feels that she's the one who needs to apologize? I'm not even going to talk about Sandra's line that HRG is like West. I did, however very much enjoy seeing him get beat up by HRG and shocked by Elle, and he had a few cool moments. For a more minor complaint, I think that they overplayed HRG's ruthlessness somewhat.
I'm very glad to see that HRG is sticking around, and the revival scene was very well done. That does not, however, change the fact that it's a big cop out, and it has the potential to drastically reduce the dramatic tension of this show. If no one can die, then why should we be worried about anything?
All of that aside, this was still an excellent episode, and I hope that the next 2 are at least as good, and that this continues whenever the next season starts.
[/spoiler]
Conduit...
[spoiler]Quite frankly, with Hiro around, anyone could potentially be brought back if they die, if you think about it.[/spoiler]
Best thing about this week's episode? NO MAYA AND ALEJANDRO!!!
Now, as to the episode itself....
[spoiler]I'm glad there was a swerve with what happened. Before the reveal at the end, when they showed Mohindar in the van looking at the gun, I was thinking "okay, now stick it in your mouth and pull the trigger".
Adam turning out to be the killer was disappointing. I was hoping for a swerve and that it would turn out to be Claude (Christopher Eccelston's character from the first season), West or Nathan.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Quote from: GhostMachine on November 20, 2007, 12:20:55 AM
Quite frankly, with Hiro around, anyone could potentially be brought back if they die, if you think about it.
No, he can't just bring anyone back to life. His quest to save Charlie was supposed to prove that time travel can't fix everything.
[/spoiler]
Quote from: Conduit on November 20, 2007, 08:07:33 AM
[spoiler]
Quote from: GhostMachine on November 20, 2007, 12:20:55 AM
Quite frankly, with Hiro around, anyone could potentially be brought back if they die, if you think about it.
No, he can't just bring anyone back to life. His quest to save Charlie was supposed to prove that time travel can't fix everything.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]What I meant is, Hiro is a deus ex machina, more or less; if the writers decide that killing someone off was a mistake, they could in fact have Hiro go back and save them (even if he does it inadvertantly) if they wanted. Doesn't mean they'd ever actually do it, however.
And more than likely it would be Peter doing it than Hiro, come to think of it, because I don't think Peter would have as much of a problem `playing God' as Hiro would....if he ever gains decent control of the time travel powers, that is.[/spoiler]
A-HA!!! I am now one step closer to finalizing my Universal Theories on Time Travel in Heroes!
[spoiler]
1) If several episodes are spent showing the resulting series of events from a major occurrence (like a death), then that major occurrence cannot be changed via time travel.
2) However, if only a single episode is spent exploring the future repercussions of a major occurrence, then that major occurrence can be averted.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
QuoteQuite frankly, with Hiro around, anyone could potentially be brought back if they die, if you think about it.
Ditto for Claire/
Doogie Howser, M.D.Adam's blood. From now on every death should involve travelling back to the beginning of time, severing the victim's head and throwing it into the sun. Wow, that's lame. Thank god I don't write for this show.[/spoiler]
Quote from: bredon7777 on November 12, 2007, 07:52:46 AM
Not necessarily. She could simply be ejcted from that future to show up back in that warehouse,
Something like that happened to Bishop at one point.
Btw I loved the final scene of last episode but I hope doing that dosent become commonplace, or the show will lose a lot of it's weight.
I just read an article with Tim Kring apologising to fans for Season 2 of Heroes ... am I the only one who hasn't noticed a drop in quality between Season 1 and 2? I thought the pacing was fine, the acting had improved and the plot-holes were a lot smaller. We even got a fair bit of hero vs hero action in there (compared to Season 1).
I think it's definitely got its weaknesses, but I agree that it's not significantly worse than the first season.
Quote... am I the only one who hasn't noticed a drop in quality between Season 1 and 2? I thought the pacing was fine, the acting had improved and the plot-holes were a lot smaller. We even got a fair bit of hero vs hero action in there
No, I agree with you, the problem is people have strangely forgotten what the first season was like and have an idealized version of it that nothing else can possibly live up to.
I mean people complained about the pace of Season 2 being too slow, but it was not nearly as slow as the first half of Season 1.
In fact, in Kring's apology, he didn't apologize for not living up to Season 1, he apologized for for trying to, basically, instead of trying to live up to expectations. I have no doubt that the changes he is talking about will improve the show, but the haters are the ones with the issues.
Sorry folks who fall into that category ('cause this topic is made for you anyway) but that's how I see it.
Cat, I hardly think that this topic exists purely for people with an irrational view of the quality of season 1. It exists so people can talk about all aspects of the show without worrying about "ruining someone's enjoyment," which is rather ridiculous in my opinion. I enjoy reading a good critique of the show, one which incorporates both the good and the bad. I also enjoy the unfettered speculation that can be done here. Since those things apparently offends some people, we can't do that in the other thread.
QuoteI also enjoy the unfettered speculation that can be done here. Since those things apparently offends some people, we can't do that in the other thread.
Not true. It was the constant complaining about how much worse Season 2 was than Season 1 that was bothering some people. It wasn't offending them, they were giving up on the show because all they could think about it was negative stuff that they read on the forums.
If it was only some negativity, there would have never been a problem.
That being said, people have generally been happy with the last few episodes, so the worst is over.
[spoiler] Could it be that Claire and HRG are children of Adam, sister and brother respectively? It would make sense since Adam is more than 400 years old...Having children 20 or 30 or more years apart is no problem for him.[/spoiler]
That makes absolutely no sense, and contradicts some things that have already been revealed.
One hint--we now know how long Adam's been locked up, since the 70's, and Claire's only 17.
Maybe Claire is older than we think she is...after all regeneration slows down the aging process. Maybe "The Company" erased all of her previous memories of her past life and set up a sound stage somewhere and placed false memories in her head...but she was busted out before they could um...lace her bones with adamantium.
OR
Maybe Hiro has to travel back in time to fight Adam before he does something sinister that will destroy the world or at least his foes. Hiro goes back to the 1990's fights Adam and has to take him to the 1970's for imprisonment, because it was during that time that Adam made a crucial move that set him up to destroy his enemies at the turn of the millennium.
You're just making things up.
By the way, we already know that Claire was a young infant when handed over to HRG. This was actually shown in one episode. It's also been established that she is Nathan's daughter and Mrs. Petrelli's grandaughter, a fact which was just repeated the last episode, I believe while Matt was mindscanning her, so no deception there.
As for HRG being his son, that's so far-fetched I won't even bother to comment on it.
[spoiler]I think they may be confused with HRG healing from the bullet wound. It's not entirely clear Claire's blood healed him. However, I must agree with Cat - most of that, going from what we've seen before, is quite hard to lineup with your hypothesis...and is quite, uh, far fetched. Although cat is much more eloquent :P [/spoiler]
This might be my least favorite episode by far, i can feel the rush to end the season and get thru this writers strike.....
That said ...bad episode for so many reasons... :thumbdown:
What! I thought it was one of the better ones.
First folks complain when it's too slow, now they're complaining that it's not slow enough.
By the way, this was all written and being produced before the writers strike. They had planned to end the story at episode 11 from the beginning. They did change the ending of next episode in case it's the last one of the season, but that's the ONLY difference the strike has made.
Quote from: starlock on November 27, 2007, 06:23:36 AM
That said ...bad episode for so many reasons... :thumbdown:
Really now? Could you then Elaborate on your reasoning behind it being your "least favorite episode by far", so that we can actually review them, not just "I didn't like it because it was STOOPID!"
This is a
discussion thread. Oddly enough, that means you "discuss"
I don't mind if you don't like something, but you can't just post "I didn't like it!" it's an unnescessary negative statement, and despite this being the place for negative comments, those comments are to be tethered with actual reasons and not pointless statements.
Cat, there were also people complaining about the speculation going on in the other thread, so that was also part of the issue. Maybe offend isn't the right word, but that's splitting hairs.
Goodness gracious people, if he didn't like it, that's his prerogative. I would like to hear his reasons too, but it's not the end of the world if we don't.
As far as I'm concerned, I am somewhat ambivalent about this episode. Something about it felt a little off to me, and I can't quite put my finger on it.
[spoiler]I know Peter's acting seems to have actually gotten WORSE this episode, but other than that...Anyway, there were still tons of things I loved, but there were also a couple of holes and things that I really hated. Mohinder has really taken a turn for the worst, as far as I'm concerned. He KILLS HRG in cold blood, then after restoring him, he locks him away from his family. Man, that's cruel. Mohinder is really turning into a jerk. Here's something that bothered me, West can fly crazy fast, right? So it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal for him to visit Claire in Utah. I mean, he could visit her once a week if he wanted. The biggest thing that bothered me was the fact that Sylar found where Mohinder and Parkman were living with Molly. How? No one knows where they are!
Still, the episode had a lot of great things going for it. Claire's reaction to her Dad's death was touching, even her wanting to wipe away her memories. She did a good job with that. Her Mom should have shot Bob. I'm definitely starting to lose all the sympathy I had for the company. It was great to get some answers about the way in which Adam is manipulating Peter. I like how they brought everything together. It looks like we're going to have quite a finale next week!
That said, there was one more thing that bothered me. Why would Hiro just attack Peter without taking the time to talk to him? I mean, it's not like Adam is going anywhere, and he knows Peter. That was a bit frustrating.
Ohh! And was I the only one who was disappointed by Echo-girl's abortive attempt at heroics? I mean, I understand what they're doing, and it doesn't bother me or anything. It's just that I was hoping for more.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Tomato on November 27, 2007, 07:57:05 AM
Quote from: starlock on November 27, 2007, 06:23:36 AM
That said ...bad episode for so many reasons... :thumbdown:
Really now? Could you then Elaborate on your reasoning behind it being your "least favorite episode by far", so that we can actually review them, not just "I didn't like it because it was STOOPID!"
This is a discussion thread. Oddly enough, that means you "discuss"
I don't mind if you don't like something, but you can't just post "I didn't like it!" it's an unnescessary negative statement, and despite this being the place for negative comments, those comments are to be tethered with actual reasons and not pointless statements.
Don't like pointless posts. Why post that then? :huh:
[spoiler]
Quote from: BentonGrey on November 27, 2007, 08:23:02 AM
The biggest thing that bothered me was the fact that Sylar found where Mohinder and Parkman were living with Molly. How? No one knows where they are!
Mohinder, Parkman and Molly are all living in Mohinder's apartment, which is the same one from Season One. Sylar visited that place last season, so he just headed over there and got lucky when he found that Molly is now living with Mohinder.
On another note, I'm a little dissapointed at how little we've found out about the group of elder heroes. This story arc was supposed to be about their story and with it coming to a close we only know the powers of 5 of them. I really would have liked to see Victoria use her power this episode.
[/spoiler]
Benton, in addition to what Conduit pointed out:
[spoiler]
Mohinder DIDN'T kill HRG in cold blood. HRG was about to kill Bob in cold blood (arguably, he has a reason of sorts) and Mohinder was defending Bob. The way I see it, he didn't really have any choice. He didn't want to kill him, and bringing him back again is very much in character.
As for him being kept from his family--I got the impression that he wasn't sure if it would work. What were they supposed to do--leave the family hanging without a body?
[/spoiler]
Ok...well maybe that sample of blood taken from Claire healed HRG....but she could still be Adam's daughter.
Let me repeat for you again, slowly.
Claire is only 17. She was shown as an infant 17 years ago. Adam's been locked away for 30 years. In addition, it has clearly been established that Nathan is her father. While Matt was interrogating Mrs. Petrelli, this fact was brought up and he detected no dishonesty. Add this to the fact that children of supers do not normally have their parents power (with multiple example of this and only one exception) and people who are not related in any known way sometimes do. (West and Nathan)
There is therefore absolutely no way she is his daughter. Descendant of some kind, maybe, but most definitely not daughter.
Lack of dishonesty does not equal truth. I can make all kinds of wild claims with absolute honesty and they could be wildly untrue.
George Costanza once said that "It's not a lie if you believe it." If Mrs. Petrelli believes that Nathan really is Claire's father (possibly because that's what Nathan told her because that's what Claire's birth mother told him) then she would make the claim that Claire is her granddaughter without any sort of dishonesty.
As for Adam being locked up for 30 years, with all the time traveling that's possible, there could have been plenty of opportunities for Peter (or maybe even Hiro) to take Adam back in time for whatever reason, or it's entirely possible that over that 30 year span Adam broke out at some point. I'm sure over the course of 30 years that he would have tried to escape a time or two.
I don't necessarily believe that Adam is Claire's father, but I can see how the possibility would be there.
Quote from: thalaw2 on November 27, 2007, 04:59:32 PM
...but she could still be Adam's daughter.
Which is exactly what I see suggested here.
Conduit: Ohh! I COMPLETELY didn't see that. It doesn't really look all that similar to me, but I suppose that is only a matter of my being unobservant. That makes me much happier, because that perceived plot hole really bothered me.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on November 27, 2007, 04:44:22 PM
Benton, in addition to what Conduit pointed out:
[spoiler]
Mohinder DIDN'T kill HRG in cold blood. HRG was about to kill Bob in cold blood (arguably, he has a reason of sorts) and Mohinder was defending Bob. The way I see it, he didn't really have any choice. He didn't want to kill him, and bringing him back again is very much in character.
As for him being kept from his family--I got the impression that he wasn't sure if it would work. What were they supposed to do--leave the family hanging without a body?
[/spoiler]
Cat:
[spoiler]I don't think it's quite that easy Cat. Mohinder hit HRG IN the freakin' eye, that's a pretty dead on shot. That tells me that he probably could have shot him in the arm, the gut, the leg, anything else that would have disabled him without killing him. He outright MURDERED a fellow who he was friends with a few weeks ago, all on the strength of the word of a man who is, in Mohinder's own words "morally gray." Yes, he DID bring him back, but as you pointed out, he didn't KNOW that the blood would heal him, meaning that he MURDERED HRG knowing full well that he could be ending his former friend's life forever. Even though he's brought him back, HRG is still left locked up in a Company facility. Mohinder didn't indicate that he would be letting him out any time soon. In fact, he pretty much told him "screw you."[/spoiler]
Hmm... anyone think West could be Nathan's son as well?
That could be possible. It's likely that Micah is the only case of parents and Children not sharing the same powers. Maybe Claire's mom and Adam hooked up and West comes from some other affair or a secret that Nathan's wife was hiding or he was grown in captivity...Have we met West's family?
EDIT: Was Bob's daughter born with powers or did he give them to her via experiments?
Conduit and Cat:
[spoiler]
1)I'd take it that shooting someone, in the FACE, is pretty much an "I want you dead" even if you ARE bringing him back. I mean, how much more of a message could you send? Shooting the corpse? And all to help protect the company which is, at best, misunderstood and, at worst, a stereotypical villainous company...which he has seen mistreats normals AND supers - AND, just to top it off, stores deadly viruses! Just a teeensy weensy bit out of character, no?
2)Even if he didn't know his blood would bring him back, he shot him in the brain! I'm assuming that this is why "Theres no coming back" from having your head taken off, which leads to a few questions about Claire and Peters spikes in the head. Or this could be conjecture and not a plot hole.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Tomato on November 27, 2007, 07:57:05 AM
Quote from: starlock on November 27, 2007, 06:23:36 AM
That said ...bad episode for so many reasons... :thumbdown:
Really now? Could you then Elaborate on your reasoning behind it being your "least favorite episode by far", so that we can actually review them, not just "I didn't like it because it was STOOPID!"
This is a discussion thread. Oddly enough, that means you "discuss"
I don't mind if you don't like something, but you can't just post "I didn't like it!" it's an unnescessary negative statement, and despite this being the place for negative comments, those comments are to be tethered with actual reasons and not pointless statements.
Well i would have but i did not want to offend anyone, and yes its my right to post how i want when i want, show me the rules to the site which state i must explain myself, i have been a member for over five years and had my time in making fx, skins, hexxing, and helping with mods and even used the donation button on a regular basis, i have a site i pay for just for these boards which has skins and mods for all to download and i have not even played the game for over 2 years i pay for my site to please this community, so dont tell me what i have to do!
Sylar's acting was horrible period, alexandro goes to stop sylar and knocks on the door? alexandro knows he is a murderer and just goes to his room to knock and say leave her alone? and the whole sylar kills alexando was so dumb and lame...seems like i was watching a bad soap opera...a very bad soap opera
Sylars character should have been killed and stayed dead, his involment in this season only distracts me from the advancement of the plot, and his first season would have been amazing to end on, not ruining the character by keeping him involved
Peter... what is wrong with his character, just bad writing, his assesment of adam is annoying and plain dumb...peter after getting his memories back should be growing as a character not going backwards
St Joan....why did i see this coming a mile away, why not have her get out the way she came in and have some friends just arrive to catch her or have micha get in trouble and get away causing her to be captured, her getting caught in the house was just lame
Mohinder suresh... what can i say about him, i am getting annoyed with his character,maybe it is what the writers want, but his going back and forth with his morality issues is boring and done way to much
This is the setup to the season finale and yet seems like a chaotic rush of events that are not thought out and fitting for the characters development, or for the developement of the plot
I love the show and its my love for the show which makes me dissapointed in it, i love superman, but that did not stop me from speaking my mind about the horrible movie called superman returns, and i will continue to post how i want to, let the mods handle whats wrong or what rules i break, if the cry babies did not want to see negative comments in the original thread i would have explained myself, but there is the problem trying to pacify the weak and easily depressed people who cant take critisism of their favorite show
I do not want this show to get cancelled, and trust me with the ratings it was getting it was not safe, and for the creator to come out and speak about the problems we were discussing ,shows great promise, its really disturbing for people to post what the creator was appologizing for as if nothing was wrong with their favorite show..done ranting ...happy?
Dont like my post ...report me, delete it whatever,its my opinon and it just that... deal with it
See, that was better.
Your first post was whining. You gave no reasons for anything and really didn't say anything worth saying.
The second post, while a bit difficult to read at times, at least is a discussion. Ranting is fine in this topic.
And the reason I asked folks to stop being negative in the other one, isn't because some people are behaving like babies, it because they were about ready to give up on the show--and realized it was all the negativity that was turning them off to it. I think folks should care enough about each other to give up a bit of whining in order to not spoil someone else's time.
Your response was interesting though. You needn't be so defensive, there just is really no point to a post that just says "I hate this." You're latest post is the kind of thing we wanted, so chill.
Quote from: thalaw2 on November 28, 2007, 12:13:20 AM
That could be possible. It's likely that Micah is the only case of parents and Children not sharing the same powers. Maybe Claire's mom and Adam hooked up and West comes from some other affair or a secret that Nathan's wife was hiding or he was grown in captivity...Have we met West's family?
Really? You're going from one case of a parent & child sharing a power to Micah being the exception? So Mr. and Mrs. Petrelli must have had flying and power absorbtion as their powers? Seems like a jump.
Quote from: thanoson on November 27, 2007, 11:29:11 PM
Hmm... anyone think West could be Nathan's son as well?
What? Having two characters MOUTHKISS ON-SCREEN and then later reveal they are brother and sister?!?!
That could never happen.
Dude, that would be awesome. Talk about angst and emo there. Topic at the Bennet home over dinner?
Mom's Bennet "So Claire, what did you do today?"
Claire "Nothing much mom. Made out with West some more."
HRG comes in whith a puzzled look on his face.
Claire " What's wrong dad? You look like you've seen a ghost."
HRG "Oh Claire Bear, I don't know how to tell you this. Umm, West is your brother."
Claire starts to projectile vomit.
Quote from: BWPS on November 28, 2007, 09:47:53 AM
Quote from: thanoson on November 27, 2007, 11:29:11 PM
Hmm... anyone think West could be Nathan's son as well?
What? Having two characters MOUTHKISS ON-SCREEN and then later reveal they are brother and sister?!?!
That could never happen.
Yeah, that's something not even George Lucas would be a part of. <_<
Wow, this is getting ridiculous. One example of a child having the same power as his parent, and now you're assuming it is the norm, even when they are 3 contradictory examples (4 if you count the online comics)? If you're going to argue that the examples of power duplication are due to heredity, you'll have a difficult time with the online comics, as in them we've seen 2 people who can control electricity, both of whom are around Elle's age.
Quote from: thalaw2 on November 28, 2007, 12:13:20 AM
EDIT: Was Bob's daughter born with powers or did he give them to her via experiments?
Given that it has never even been suggested that experiments could give someone powers on this show, it's almost certainly the former. Her life story describes her developing her powers then being given to the Company.
As for West, this quote from here (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12002) should clear things up a bit:
QuoteClaire's new classmate West can fly. This brings up an interesting question about the heroes - can two different people have identical powers? And going back to Neal's theory above, does this necessarily indicate a genetic link? Are Claire and the classmate going to end up being the Luke and Leia of "Heroes?"
First off, Ew. And no, similar powers do not mean a genetic link. We've seen that the existence of powers may be something passed on, but the powers themselves are a crapshoot of sorts. For example, phase-man + strength-girl = talks to machines.
Oh, and I'd just like to point out that Meredith seemed pretty sure that Nathan was the father. I don't see any reason why she would pretend otherwise, especially after Nathan thought she died.
:spoiler:
[spoiler]at least now we got a clue how the Chanti Virus mutates, probably Maja's power mixed with the virus or something...[/spoiler]
Episode's not even over yet, but I have one thing to say:
[spoiler]
Maya's dead. So why even have her in the first place? She has been here for 11 episodes and serves absolutely no purpose in the plot whatsoever. I had faith in the heroes folks that she would end up important, or they would not have had her. I feel betrayed. All you guys who said her storyline was a waste were just proven right.
[/spoiler]
EDIT: Okay, called it too soon. However, they've already used the same gimick two episodes in a row, and I'm already thinking it was a bad idea to introduce it.
I mean, I know that the writers strike is causing a lot of trouble, but this finale was seriously underwhelming. They said it was over and I was just like, "Are you serious?" as I checked the time on my phone. Lo and behold it was 9:59. I was still waiting for something to happen..
I like the premise of Part 3 "Villains" but seriously, they need to start making things happen that don't just become meaningless the next time you watch.
I agree that this was somewhat underwhelming. I think that the writer's strike may have contributed to this, as they did some last minute rewrites so this could function as a season finale. But it was still a pretty enjoyable ride.
[spoiler]
So Sylar had the virus for at least 2 weeks without showing any symptoms apart from loss of his abilities? That's a very slow acting disease. I had gotten the impression that it killed people a lot quicker than that.
It's a little dissapointing but not unexpected that Niki was killed off. I guess they really didn't know what to do with her. I'm also dissapointed that Monica's storyline amounted to almost nothing in the grand scheme of the plot. She had some real potential, but at least she's still alive.
I'll probably post more thoughts about this episode and the rest of the season when I think of them, maybe tomorrow.
[/spoiler]
About the last minute rewrites, they were some very detailed spoilers published before the rewrites. They got everything else right, so they're probably legitimate.
[spoiler]
The original plan was for the virus to actually break out in Odessa, and it would be quarantined. Nathan's press conference was to thank the people of the city for being brave enough to carry out the quarantine. Claire would watch this on TV and find out that Peter is alive. After the speech, however, Nathan would start to get sick, with the implication that he has the virus. There was also something about Elle bringing down Sylar, but I don't know if that means anything more than what we saw in the final episode.
[/spoiler]
Well, I've definitely got to disagree with those of you who said that this was underwhelming. Considering the fact that this wasn't MEANT to be the season finale, perhaps I'm just cutting it a bit of slack, but still, I found it pretty entertaining.
[spoiler]I do wish Maya had stayed dead, though. When Sylar shot her, my wife and I were like "at last!" The only thing that we were disappointed at was that she hadn't killed Sylar first. If it weren't for Molly having been in the way, I wish she would have wiped out both Sylar AND Mohinder in his apartment.
Once again, Mohinder is pretty stupid. He could have simply smashed the vial with Claire's blood, and Sylar would be doomed to die. Yeah, Sylar might have killed him, but it's more likely that he would have kept him around in hopes of finding another cure. Still...I wouldn't weep over Mohinder biting it.
The part with HRG was somewhat surprising, and I am not entirely thrilled with it, but I suppose it makes sense. I hope it turns out for the best next season.
I was, like some of you, also really disappointed with Echo girl's story. I kept thinking, OK, now she remembers seeing something on escape artists and slips out of the ropes....ok NOW she uses kung-fu skills to beat the crap out of that guy even while tied up....ok NOW she manages a daring last minute escape.....but....she did......nothing.
I was really sad to see Nathan die, although it certainly made sense in the story. He has, perhaps, had the most dramatic journey of any of the heroes, and we've seen the least of it. With the last couple of episodes, he had quickly become one of my favorites, and I was really looking forward to him putting his life back together. This time around, he could have served as the group's moral compass instead of Peter. I do have a couple of problems with that scene though. Peter could have A) Frozen time when he heard the bullets, B) Reversed time when Nathan got shot, C) Frozen time long enough to get Nathan to a hospital. Also, Nathan's death would in no way stop them from spreading their message. Peter could demonstrate his powers even more effectively than Nathan, and it's not like they've got any lack of press power there. I'm hopeful Nathan will come back next semester, but I don't really think he will.
Also, did Peter's blind faith in Adam bother anyone else? He's known this guy for a fairly short time, he's murdered at least two people that he knew of, and he's heard reports of him murdering others. Then, people he knows and has fought along side start showing up, all telling him that Adam's evil.........hmm......maybe it might be worth freezing time and going to check out what he's doing in there with the virus...all alone....where he LET HIM GO. At least after Hiro tells him Adam is evil, you'd think Peter might want to go inside the vault WITH him.
However, there were tons of great things too. I loved the Hiro/Peter fight, even if it was brief. Hiro's mastery over his powers put him on ALMOST even footing with Peter, which was cool and believable.
Adam's fate was comic book awesome.
Hiro's silence after giving him said fate........also awesome, and showing us a new darkness to the character. This is interesting, although I hope it doesn't ruin him.
Micah showing off his powers was cool, although that little storyline should have happened a little faster.
Seeing Maya die, however briefly was satisfying.
Elle questioning her father, and her reaction to the new knowledge. It was surprising, and she is more and more becoming a really interesting character. I also really want to know exactly what is going on with Bob.
Mrs. Petrelli's stone cold reception of her son's death....man, that woman is HARD. My wife and I STILL want to know what the original's powers are. Are there any clues on that?
[/spoiler]
If anyone watches lost, Maya and her brother really reminded me of the two characters introduced in Lost's last season that everyone hated.
[spoiler]Frankly, if Sylar isn't stopped....and by that, I mean either deceased with an identifiable corpse present or given a frontal lobotomy and tossed in a mental institution.....next season, I may not watch a fourth.
Maya needs to go. Seriously. Unless she learns how to control her power better instead of just being able to shut it off, I don't see what use she'll be, powers-wise, when its dangerous to anyone around her. I like the actress well enough, but the character sucks.
I do have a theory about why they're keeping her around, though, and if I'm right, I'm going to be ticked off, and I bet I won't be the only one:
Its quite possible that Sylar will gain a power that makes it hard, or impossible, for Peter or any of the other heroes to stop him. Conveniently, this power won't save him from Maya's. Personally, I'd rather see Elle do to Sylar what she did to Kaitlyn's brother, if Peter or Hiro isn't the one who takes him out, and if they do go the "Maya defeats him" route, I hope she gets written out of the series afterward (dies defeating him, decides to go back home, gets depowered and decides to start a new life somewhere else, etc).
Mohinder was too much of an idiot this season. Seriously. I was almost hoping he'd bite the dust![/spoiler]
[spoiler]ARGH! This is the worst thing that could happen...both niki and nathan, and Adam is sealed under the ground...3 good characters perished
The guy that shot Nathan looked like Noah, is this what he ment with "go with them?"[/spoiler]
Despite being sad that the season ended so soon, I thought it was a good finale.
[spoiler]There's no way Nathan stays dead. It'd just be stupid if no one thinks to give him a simple blood transfusion from his daughter. If they wanted him actually dead, he would've gotten the head shot. Niki is probably dead, I assume she'll just burn up. Which is ok because she didn't do ANYTHING this season, not even a popular wrestling finisher. That girl who got captured must have spent a day watching the "Staying Tied Up Competition" marathon on TV. Still a possibility that Niki escaped. So does healing make you unable to starve or get dehydrated? Even if not, isn't that a worse punishment than death?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Kring gave an interview with TV Guide where he said that they don't know whether Nathan or Niki are dead and will decide after the strike ends. So I guess we can't really tell if Nathan's dead. I highly doubt Niki will survive, though. That explosion looked pretty final, and it's clear from this season that they don't know what to do with her.
[/spoiler]
They should have left her as Mohinder's partner. That development had potential.
Why, oh why, is there no budget for a decent fight sequence on this show? They've cut fight sequences that should be epic, short. :(
Definitely enjoyed this episode, even though it did feel rushed due to the writers' strike.
[spoiler]So now they've asserted, repeatedly, that a shot to the head is straight-out fatal to a Hero, and that there's no coming back from it. Which makes me wonder just how far the bullet drilled into HRG's head when he got shot in the eye. Still, based on the canon established from Season One, it would seem that the use of powers is tied to a specific area of the brain. (Peter Petrelli got that shard of glass embedded in the back of his head, which prevented him from regenerating until Claire pulled it out.) But if they're not careful with this mechanic, the regenerative blood could become way too much of a plot crutch.
True to comic book rules, no character should be counted on as dead until the corpse is confirmed as cold, and the ashes are verified as belonging to the corpse. And even then it's not certain.
Nathan Petrelli was definitely one of my favorite characters this episode. There was a great brotherly dynamic between him and Peter. I also liked how his hair was still in disarray, suggestive that while he may be sober, he's still recovering from his bout with alcohol.
Elle also had some nice character development this episode. She desperately wants to have a father-daughter relationship with her dad, and she showed a a surprised satisfaction as she realized that she saved Mohinder and company from being killed by Sylar.
It's definitely puzzling as to why the virus injected into Sylar didn't give an indication of its long-term lethality. It's not necessarily inconsistent with what happened to Nikki, though. As far as I know, they never set a timetable on how long the virus would take to kill its host. So it could have been slowly killing Sylar as well as Nikki. In any case, maybe Mohinder's discovery that Sylar was injected with the same virus as Nikki will cause him to Get A Freaking Clue that the Company is not to be trusted.
I'm curious as to what Ma Petrelli envisions as the result of "opening Pandora's Box." Mobilizing Heroes to band together and adopt a scorched-earth policy with regards to the Company?[/spoiler]
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on December 04, 2007, 07:33:03 AM
They should have left her as Mohinder's partner. That development had potential.
True Cat, that would have been interesting.
[spoiler]What really frustrates me about this episode is that they have Molly, Elle, and Maya sitting there and Suresh doesn't realize that they can stop Sylar right then and there by finding him and frying/diseasing him. If the writers for the show went on strike, then good riddence I say. Stupid plotholes.
Having Nathon and Nikki die (thought that remains to be seen) was a good way to go. I also enjoyed Adam's fate at the end of the episode.
I wonder if Angela was talking to Bob or Linderman? Malcolm McDowell did hint that his character could return later.[/spoiler]
I'm not too bothered by what Hiro did to Adam. Hasn't one of our most honored heroes done the same thing to Darkseid before?
[spoiler]
QuoteI wonder if Angela was talking to Bob or Linderman? Malcolm McDowell did hint that his character could return later.
Uh...how? He got a fist IN the brain. Then again, magic blood! God...[/spoiler]
Yeah, Thanoson, if I remember right Superman also dumped Mongul in a black hole...
Quote from: Podmark on December 03, 2007, 10:41:59 PM
If anyone watches lost, Maya and her brother really reminded me of the two characters introduced in Lost's last season that everyone hated.
Ironically, with those two characters, their backstory was real interesting. Of course, that was the episode where they were killed off...
Maya is a solid character now that Alejandro is dead and she's no longer with Sylar. In fact, she may join up with the Company and won't that be an interesting take. With her being some kind of doomsday-type weapon used on special people whose abilities are too dangerous and out of control.
While that would be interesting, I would think that, having been manipulated by Sylar, she wouldn't like being manipulated by anyone else. But we'll see.
QuoteWhy, oh why, is there no budget for a decent fight sequence on this show? They've cut fight sequences that should be epic, short.
Because these guys can't do action. They don't know how, and any attempts to do so would only look ridiculous. They are, however, getting better at shorter super-powered fights, so we may at least see more of those. Besides, if you think about it, the presence of powers really show garantee that any fight does stay pretty short.
Some thoughts on this volume:
[spoiler]
Now that this volume is over, what exactly, was the point of Maya and Sylar's storylines? Maya did nothing, and all Sylar did was get back to where he was at the end of last season. The only effect that he had on the main storyline was killing Candice, which could have been done any number of ways.
Another thing I'm a little dissapointed about is the Elder heroes storyline. This volume was supposed to tell us about the previous generation and their group, but now that it's over, we only have a thumbnail sketch. We found out how many were in the group, and learned that Adam tried to lead some astray, but that's about it. 4 members were simply killed offscreen without us ever meeting them or even learning anything about them. They apparently all have powers, but we only know the powers of 4 of them. Would it have been so hard to have Victoria use her power before her death, perhaps against with Adam and Peter, or to have Hiro ask his father what power he has before taking him back to die? Angela's power has been a nagging question for a while now, and by this point I'm not sure we'll ever find out. What we saw of this storyline was great, and gave us some of the best moments of the season, but it was underused.
The virus storyline provided a pretty good conflict. I think that it was about as good as it could have been given how it was drastically cut short due to the writer's strike.
[/spoiler]
And more specific to this episode:
[spoiler]
I'd just like to say again how cool Adam's fate was.
Quote from: Viking on December 04, 2007, 08:56:53 AM
It's definitely puzzling as to why the virus injected into Sylar didn't give an indication of its long-term lethality. It's not necessarily inconsistent with what happened to Nikki, though. As far as I know, they never set a timetable on how long the virus would take to kill its host. So it could have been slowly killing Sylar as well as Nikki. In any case, maybe Mohinder's discovery that Sylar was injected with the same virus as Nikki will cause him to Get A Freaking Clue that the Company is not to be trusted.
This wouldn't have bothered me as much if we could see that it was slowly killing him. If he had gotten a small fever, a cough, a general lack of energy,
something to indicate that the virus was doing damage besides suppressing his powers.
It's a little wierd how Hiro didn't react to Matt at all. The last and only time Hiro met Matt, he beat him up and killed his future self. Sure, that's his dark future version, but Hiro doesn't know what Matt's like now.
When Sylar prepared for the blood test, he put his gun down on the table. Couldn't Mohinder have just grabbed it then? Of course, this is Mohinder we're talking about.
[/spoiler]
About the virus and Sylar:
[spoiler]
Mohinder states it was the same strain used on the Niki. The strain used on Niki was an experiment to see if they could develop a version of the virus that removes powers without killing. That's why they wanted to test it on Niki's relative. It's not perfected and may or may not work as advertised. That's why Mohinder wants to cure it. It may very well not kill, or work very, very slowly. That fact that Sylar's had it for a while but is not sick is not, therefore, a mistake. That's what that strain was designed to do.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
I really think Maya and Micah's cousin were being set-up in this volume for a more important role later in the season, plans that have been derailed by the writers' strike. We had Micah's cousin learning the dangers in trying to be a hero, and we had Maya get a serious grudge against Sylar, who's back powers-wise now, both character developments that had little to nothing to do with the over-arching plot of volume 2.
One nit-pick: Peter was trying to avert the release of the virus because he couldn't get back to the future to save his Irish girlfriend when he encounters Hiro, who has much better control over his time/space manipulation. Couldn't he have just asked Hiro to save her? Also, by changing the future that the Irish woman is stuck in, what happens to her? Does reality just change around her and she's in a different future, having skipped a year of her life? Or might she have vanished along with that possible future?
[/spoiler]
Also, the more I think about the abyss the show has opened in having Claire/Adam's blood cure anyone of anything up to and including death, the more I conclude that they've got to get rid of Claire at this point. Adam is taken care of, but having a character that can basically undo any significant character death or injury without any risk or damage to themselves is pretty horrible in terms of story-telling. Even Hiro's power, which could be used to undo the same things if the writers wanted to, isn't quite as bad, since he actually has to risk himself by going to the past and making changes, changes that could potentially make the future worse.
The imagine what Peter's blood could do.....
A few gripes about the episode and the volume in general:
[spoiler]
The healing blood is getting tiring, and they've only used it twice to bring people back already. It really makes death a joke on this show, which is kind of annoying.
Speaking of death being a joke, I've brought it up before, and I'll bring it up again, they really need to stop killing off so many darn characters. It is really becoming kind of annoying. I mean, it's normal for a show to move on, and evolve and need to get rid of characters, but they've killed off some that could definitely have future use, and they've killed off some that they could have gotten rid of by other means.
It is certainly annoying that we don't really have much clue about what the last generation could do. Especially given that this volume was really supposed to link the two generations together. It was almost as if they weren't at all important, other than to show that they "screwed up" 30 years ago and it was coming to bite the world in the butt now. I'd really be interested to know what they can do, and why they don't seem to want to do it now.
I didn't really care for Monica or her entire related storyline. All it seemed to do was introduce her character, which really did nothing, give Micah something to do, which was practically nothing and kill off Niki, which could have been done in any number of ways.
[/spoiler]
I just saw the last episode and it seems like they are going the route of most major Marvel comic characters..
Dying and coming back is all a part of comics...lets not forget the old rule...."Everybody but Bucky" and we all know that rule is broken now. It's funny that watching a show about comic super heroes dying and coming back makes comics fans upset maybe it's because there is no space a few years between resurrections.
[spoiler] I don't think this is the end of Niki...she's too fine to die. I wish they had killed off Elle, i'm sick of her or even Molly because of her bad acting. Will lack of oxygen kill Adam or will he just come back to life when the coffin is opened by some future archaeologists digging up ancient remains of the 21st century? Was that Peter who caught Nathan when he was falling?
I thought this was a good episode considering that the story could not be told as it was meant to be. They were wise to end it early instead of causing more damage. [/spoiler]
Okay, I got bored with the show several weeks back and finally got around to watching the last four episodes tonight. Honestly, if it weren't for the fact that this thread has been so active and I've been missing the discussions, I don't know that I ever would have gotten back around to the show. ^_^
But, I am glad I did. I must say these last several episodes were pretty good. They were at least much better than the first several episodes of the season. The pacing was much better and some of the plot points were pretty good, IMO.
Anyway, thoughts, mostly about the finale:
[spoiler]I don't really buy The Company re-recruiting HRG. They've been shown in the past to value agents who are fiercely loyal and who follow orders without hesitation. HRG doesn't really fit the bill anymore, in my estimation. Of course, all of that previous approach could have been a symptom of Linderman's influence. It could be that, with Bob at the helm, The Company is being a little more flexible about its agents (e.g. Mohinder).
And, meanwhile, Bob is probably the world's worst dad. But, it's perfectly reasonable to think he really is acting on behalf of what he sees as the greater good. I think his methods are deplorable, but he wouldn't be the first who takes a "you have to break a few eggs" view of figurative omelet-making.
I don't know about this "going public" plan of Claire and of Matt/Nathan/Peter. I don't believe for a second that The Company is the only organization with an ends-justify-the-means approach to what constitutes good. Many institutions (including governments) would be more than willing to lock the specials away in a lab for the rest of their lives for testing "for the public benefit" or in prisons "for public safety". It would be about thirty seconds after hearing what Claire's blood can do for injuries before someone started demanding she "donate" whatever her physiological limit is in order to benefit the injured. And, even if no organization targeted specials, Claire is crazy to think she wouldn't hounded to the ends of the Earth by individual people who want her to heal their hurt baby and so on. Whether or not it might bring down The Company, the whole scheme is utter nonsense as a plan to improve the lives of specials and their families.
I agree that the "regenerator blood = extra healing potion" device is already played. Because of it, we really can't be sure anyone is dead for good (unless we actually see them cremated, I guess). We don't even know how long HRG was clinically dead before Claire's blood brought him back. I am a little curious how a transfusion works for someone with no pulse, but that's a technical point.
The "a shot in the head kills regenerators dead" theory sounds bogus to me. As someone here pointed out, there is no way they could know that. (And, before someone mentions that Adam said it himself, that's irrelevant since there's no way he could know either.) It is, of course, possibly true. But, even if the company has experience with some other regenerator (which they may well have), it is still blind presumption that all healing powers work the same way and have the same limitations. Moreover, we have seen the regeneration power heal Claire from a brain injury, heal Peter, and heal HRG's shot to the head. None of those may be absolute proof but they certainly carry the implication that a bullet through the brain is not a definitive way to kill a regenerator.
BTW, apparently, either Matt has some inherent immunity to his own suggestion power that Peter picked up or Peter picked up the immunity from somewhere else. This is another one of those powers that puts Peter over the top in terms of uber-ness.
Also, that new power kind of puts Matt on the uber list as well as on the moral hazard list. Which makes me wonder about his father. Does it strike anyone else as odd that Parkman senior never used any direct mind control power in that way? He always tricked people into doing what he wanted via his nightmares, not by direct suggestion. It's possible that Matt's power is not exactly the same as his father's...
Also, as far as speculation goes, I would have no problem if there were certain specials whose powers Peter cannot duplicate, like the Haitian's. There is no rule that every power must be duplicable. Thus far, we've seen Peter duplicate many powers he was exposed to. But there is no proof he got all of them.
I like that Sylar is still around and will be a threat. I do agree, though, that we don't have to have a Sylar arc every season just because he isn't dead. Same deal with Adam. Although, I have to agree that it would make perfect sense for Sylar to want to get Adam's power, if he ever found out about it. And, if Molly is to be a regular character, the fact that Sylar would be constantly after her (what better power to further his "evolutionary imperative"?) would be a decent plot device.
So, who shot Nathan? It kinda looked like Syalr, but I re-watched it and the face was definitely never shown and anyone can wear a dark overcoat and baseball cap. To be honest, it could have been a job the company would give to HRG, both as a test of loyalty and because of his experience with wet work.
Finally, I did think it was a bit of a stretch that Matt, Nathan, and Peter are holding this press conference to reveal things that they know a powerful group doesn't want the world to know about and they apparently gave almost no thought to security.[/spoiler]
As an aside, this thread is not just for negative comments. It is for all discussion of the show, positive or negative. It is the other thread in which the participants voluntarily limit the area of discussion. If someone wants to post a wholly positive comment about the show here, that is perfectly fine.
Stumpy:
[spoiler]
The "kill regenerators by destroying the brain" does have some truth. We know that cutting the head open and removing the brain does the trick, because Sylar killed Claire that way in FYG and Future Hiro's original timeline. I think that a head shot might work, if you hit them in the right spot (I think more towards the bottom of the brain, where the tree branch ended up lodged in Claire's brain, remember in the first season finale when Peter told Claire to shoot him in a specific spot if he went nuclear) and the gun was powerful enough to actually blow a lot of brain material out of the exit wound. At the very least, it would kill them temporarily and give you time to get close and follow up with a few more head shots. Victoria's shotgun from the previous episode, at least, would definitely work at the ranges she was going to shoot them at.
I don't think that Matt's suggestion ability is insurmountable. Angela was able to resist it for a while, though she got a nosebleed. Trying to get someone to do something that they have strong inhibitions against doing, like murder, could be pretty hard. I imagine having the telepathy ability to push back helped Peter to defend himself, that plus he is pretty loyal to Adam. I would have loved it if Matt had tried to influence Adam, and he had laughed it off, saying that between a willpower built up over four centuries and practice with Maury, he's pretty much immune.
[/spoiler]
For those who don't know, G4 re-runs the week's episode on Saturday night, with a 1 hour Post Show on afterward. This week they had the actor who plays Ando on as co-host, with producer Tim Kring, director Allan Arkush, and the actors who play HRG, Maya and the Haitian on as guests.
STOP READING NOW IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE LAST EPISODE AIRED, AS THIS CONTAINS SPOILERS!
A few things they revealed:
[spoiler]Originally the plan was for the virus to get loose - ie, Peter didn't catch the vial in time - but they changed their minds and decided to go in a different direction.
When they shot the scene with Elle attacking Sylar, the glass Sylar crashed through was actually CGI; the rest of the glass windows were real. Good thing, because they had to film the scene 3 times due to technical problems (the explosive charges they used for sfx didn't go off the first two tries), and the scene was supposed to be longer but they ran out of time due to having to reshoot twice. (There was going to be more footage of Elle standing in the hallway afterward)
This past episode wasn't necessarily the season finale, just the end of Volume 2. They planned for this season to actually be Volumes 2, 3 and 4, with the breaks throughout the season marking the end of each Volume. If the Writers' Guild strike ends in time, they do plan on trying to do Volume 3 if they can.
The meaning of the helix symbol (which keeps popping up everywhere) was actually going to be revealed in the first episode of Heroes: Origins, but they haven't decided when they'll reveal it now.
The interactive poll for who shot Nathan had "A New Character" in the lead, with "HRG" second.
It was kind of hinted at, but not actually said, that Nathan may not be dead.[/spoiler]
A couple things I thought were interesting:
The actor who plays the Haitian really IS Haitian, and he originally auditioned for the role of DL.....3 times. The Haitian was originally going to be a Maori.
The actor who played DL is now doing the lead role in a play that Adrian Pasdar is involved with. (I'm guessing he's the producer, or something) This was revealed in a text window thing at the bottom of the screen, not discussed by the guests.
Good points, Conduit.
[spoiler]I agree that the regeneration has definitely been shown to be halted by some brain injuries. In those cases, it seemed like it was the presence of some obstruction that was key. In the FYG case with Claire, I think it's likely that whatever Sylar does to the brain (whether it is literal eating or something else) represents permanent tissue destruction, the same way immolation does. But you are right that the regeneration process has been shown to be stoppable.
I guess my issue is with the way the characters were acting as if a shot to the head is sort of a general Achilles' heel, when it may well take a pretty lucky shot to do the right kind of damage. Adam's "there's no coming back from that, mate." comment made it sound as though if he were decapitated, that would be the end of him, and maybe it would keep him from regenerating on his own. But, I don't think it would be surprising if he were recapitated (someone puts his head back in the right place), that he would regenerate fine. (Nevermind that decapitation isn't really a brain injury anyway.)
Angela was able to stall long enough to convince Matt to take the pressure off, though it seemed like she definitely would have crumbled if Matt had pushed her again. I am glad the power isn't shown to be irresistible, though it was pretty strong to affect a strong-willed Angela that powerfully when Matt barely had any practice with it.
I still contend that Peter is already too uber and the addition of this sort of power is really taking the character in a direction where we start asking "the Superman question". That is, he has so many very effective powers that, whenever he faces a setback, we want to ask, "Well, why didn't he just use his X ability?" in the same way people wonder why Superman didn't use super speed or heat vision or whatever in a given situation.
I also like the idea that some characters can be immune to the powers of others, either because of exposure or because of some aspect of their own special powers. I think a good power for a new special to exhibit would be to make other people (specials or normals) immune to various powers.
BTW, did we ever find out what Kaito meant by the "I never thought it would be you!" comment when Adam pushed him over the ledge? Why the heck wouldn't it be Adam? It was Adam's symbol on the pictures, to start with. But, more to the point, nothing we've seen about the Adam-Kaito history leads us to believe they parted on good terms. Not the least of which history was Kaito tossing Adam in a cell for thirty years. It would have made as much sense for Kaito to say, "I always thought it would be you!"
Meanwhile, it's interesting to me that Kaito and Adam were in The Company together for years. I wonder if Kaito knew that Adam was Kensei and if Adam ever wondered if this Kaito Nakamura would be the father of the Hiro Nakamura from the future that he met four hundred+ years ago. Of course, it looks like Adam was locked up at the time Hiro was born, but still...[/spoiler]
Stumpy:
[spoiler]
When Peter asked Adam if he really had killed Hiro's father, Adam answer yes without hesitation. I would guess from that, that he was somehow well aware of Kaito's connection with Hiro.
Actually, given that the two were together for possibly months in the past, and that Adam seems to know more about Hiro's abilities than was shown being discussed in the show, we can assume they had plenty of times to discuss things like Hiro's family.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on December 09, 2007, 05:51:03 PM
When Peter asked Adam if he really had killed Hiro's father, Adam answer yes without hesitation. I would guess from that, that he was somehow well aware of Kaito's connection with Hiro.
Well, yes, by that time, he definitely knew. I probably wasn't clear that I was curious if Adam had figured out the Kaito would eventually have a son named Hiro back when he and Kaito were on ostensibly good terms. That would have been before Hiro was born.
I guess, I partly can't tell because I have no idea how common a surname Nakamura is in Japan. If it's like Jones is in the U.S., then he might have never thought twice about it. If it's a name like Schimmelpfennig, then he would probably consider the connection.
Adam may have met many Japanese specials, in his long life. He wouldn't necessarily connect all of them to Hiro.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on December 09, 2007, 05:51:03 PMActually, given that the two were together for possibly months in the past, and that Adam seems to know more about Hiro's abilities than was shown being discussed in the show, we can assume they had plenty of times to discuss things like Hiro's family.
Quite likely. I don't have any idea how long Hiro was supposed to be in Kensei's time or if Kensei and Hiro spent a lot of time discussing the details of their personal histories. But, it's worth noting that, for the most part, Hiro's details would be meaningless to Kensei, even aside from the whole "don't reveal too much of the future" business. I don't mean that friends don't talk about that stuff, I just mean that if I am buddies with people who I know will never meet my father, then I may never tell them his name.
[/spoiler]
stumpy:
[spoiler]
Regarding the brain: I had much the same thought- when Mrs. Petrelli said you had to put a bullet through Adam (and/or Peter's) head to kill them, I actually yelled at the screen " A bullet THROUGH the head wont do jack!" You'd have to somehow arrange for something to lodge there forever to keep them out of the picture.
Regarding Kaito: I'm a little confused about the timeline- is it possible that Kaito didn't KNOW of Adam's escape, and his comment was simply something along the lines of "I thought we'd taken care of you. I never thought you'd escape."? ETA: We know they know Adam's immortal. We don't know if they know he was Takeo Kenzei...
Regarding Peter: Having a ton of power != knowing how to use said power, so I really don't consider Peter to be all that uber. I still don't think he should have TK at all, but that's another thread. Plus, he has a lot of powers he simply doesn't know he has - reducing his uberness even more.
Lets make a list:
Powers Peter knows about: TK, telepathy, invisbility, super strength, phasing, electric bolts, flight, going boom, healing, time/space manipulation, future painting. He'd be a <bleep> to beat in a fight, sure- but I'm not ready to stick the uber label on him.
Powers Peter doesnt know about: super hearing, machine control, eidetic memory, freezing things, melting things, transmuting things, extreme intuition.
I miss any? [/spoiler]
He might only be able to take powers from Sylar that he's used around him. That would severely limit the list. Sure, it's not a prerequisite for anybody else's ability, but we don't know how Sylar's mucked-up DNA screws over Peter's mimicry.
That's exactly what the writers said.
Of course, the writers have a habit of saying something as if it's set in stone, only for the series to contradict that a few episodes later, so believe what you want.
Quote from: Gremlin on December 09, 2007, 07:56:33 PM
He might only be able to take powers from Sylar that he's used around him. That would severely limit the list. Sure, it's not a prerequisite for anybody else's ability, but we don't know how Sylar's mucked-up DNA screws over Peter's mimicry.
Not to mention that when the Company had Sylar captured in the first season, they found no other powers besides telekinesis. That may be the only ability that Sylar uses constantly and as such is the only one that Peter knows. Perhaps his other abilities have to be activated, much like Peter's, in some fashion for him to use them. Or maybe Peter's own power is limited to the amount of time he has exposure to the person. In Sylar's case, he has so many powers that may Peter didn't have time to absorb them. Or maybe the overload in the first season was caused by the fact that Peter couldn't absorb Sylar's power along with all the others who were present at the time.
As for the shot to the head:
When Victoria Pratt was going to shoot Peter, it was a shotgun blast to the head. That doesn't lodge a bullet in the brain, that destroys a significant portion of the brain. For Noah, the bullet was most likely removed before Mohinder applied Claire's blood. We've seen how in the first season that objects lodged in the brain prevent regeneration (and total removal or destruction as well).
Regarding the new plot device that the blood of Adam and Claire regenerate other people:
This is most likely due to the source of regeneration in the characters. There is probably some unknown gland in the brain that creates some kind of enzyme that provides fast healing and tissue restoration. Maybe some kind of stem-cell creator or something.
Trailer for Vol 3, made out of the bits and pieces of stuff they were able to film before the strike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iBLZ_4rTuQ
Quote from: bredon7777 on December 19, 2007, 07:27:06 AM
Trailer for Vol 3, made out of the bits and pieces of stuff they were able to film before the strike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iBLZ_4rTuQ
[spoiler]And, I suppose, made out of the bits and pieces that fit closely to their new plan for Volume 3. Hence, absolutely no Peter, Nathan, Matt, or Mohinder as they would have been tied up with the virus storyline in the original plan. Of course, part of the reason there's so much Sylar in the trailer is that they tried to film his scenes early, because he would have had to do that Star Trek film later in the year.
That said, I wonder if they did write and film a few scenes at the last minute just for this trailer. I find it hard to believe that HRG would have been talking about the "villains" storyline, as that wasn't going to come up until much later.[/spoiler]
My thoughts on endless regeneration:
[spoiler]Hiro had a chance to save his father, and learned it was not heroic to do so. I think all saves will be done by badguys, and as such will only be there to create drama/conflict. In other words dont expect Hiro to constantly go back to save people and Clair infusing everyone with her blood. I expect good guys to die and people who are useful to the badguys to live long, frequently ressurected lives. [/spoiler]
The graphic novels are still coming out. It looks like last week's one hints at how they plan on getting Adam out of his prison and this week's one features Bob turning a man into gold (which is pretty evil).
Anyway, the next volume will feature loads of more villains, so we may get a much nicer conflict and probably a series of murders committed by Sylar that we won't feel too bad about.
One thing I would like to see, that wasn't in this past volume, is someone who can take on Sylar and Peter without the need for copying or stealing other people's powers. And it would have to be a power that is wholly unique and not seen before in the Heroes universe. Also, it can't be reality manipulation, because that's way too clichéd.
So far, though, they have given us several characters who can probably take on Sylar on their own, namely Matt Parkman (should he realize his full potential), Elle, the Haitian, and, of course, Peter. So I don't really regard him as a huge threat, though he will be a considerable one.
Well, fortunately, comic book writers don't fall under the screenwriter's union. In fact, they may even be the same writers (they were before) but it's okay since this is a comic book.
Oh and don't forget Hiro. He is perfectly capable of taking on Sylar as well, expecially as his powers and sword skills increase. He nearly took him out at the end of season 1, and Sylar found it frustratingly difficult to fight him, due to his teleportation.
For someone who could take on Sylar without copying/stealing powers, I'd like to see someone with old-school invulnerabilty. It always bugged me how promotional material for Heroes has called Claire indestructible, when she just heals really fast. If invulnerability was someone's only power - and most heroes still only have one - it's not overpowering compared to Sylar, Peter or Hiro.
Quote from: Talavar on January 11, 2008, 06:14:21 PM
For someone who could take on Sylar without copying/stealing powers, I'd like to see someone with old-school invulnerabilty. It always bugged me how promotional material for Heroes has called Claire indestructible, when she just heals really fast. If invulnerability was someone's only power - and most heroes still only have one - it's not overpowering compared to Sylar, Peter or Hiro.
You mean someone like Diamond Lil? I could definitely see a villain along those lines. Someone who Sylar could throw around, freeze, fry, and whatever else and (s)he just keeps on coming. Not even Sylar's telekinesis could penetrate his/her tough skull. A villain of that caliber would be a tough fight indeed.
I also think there should be a new character who has telekinesis but is levels above Sylar and Peter in terms of effectiveness and experience. Both the aforementioned characters have only had those abilities for a short time. Think of someone with 10 years of experience and practice.
ok, i've seen all episodes up to season 2 episode 10. is there anything after eleven?
i'm really impressed with claire's dad. he's scarier than batman to me.
Quote from: bearded on February 06, 2008, 12:16:30 PM
ok, i've seen all episodes up to season 2 episode 10. is there anything after eleven?
No, thanks to the writer's strike, this season is eleven episodes long.
Quote from: Conduit on February 06, 2008, 02:35:50 PM
[No, thanks to the writer's strike, this season is eleven episodes long.
Yeah, quite true.. The producers and writers started looking at the negative forum feedback from the episodes coming out as the strike loomed on the horizen and decided that if it happened then they would put Volume Three on hiatus until the Fall 2008 season. I'm sure that the writing team has been hammering out the new storyline while the strike was on just unofficially and putting more effort into the online comics (since the strike didn't include comics) to keep the fans going until their return.
- CrimsonQuill
You know, the graphic novels are still going.
This week, a young Linderman encountered someone who could also steal other people's powers, although she didn't have to remove their brains.
On that note, I still think that Sylar's abilities are not actually "stolen." I think he, as a result of his power, knows where to look and learns how to do it himself after looking at the brains he removes. In a sense, he is acquiring powers we all could if we had the intricate knowledge that he naturally possesses as a result of his original power.
Yeah, the general thinking is along those lines. He examines the brains, maybe takes them apart, figures out how the power works, and then does something to replicate the power in himself.
And then he should eat them. Just for the rush.
Seriously. That would be the coolest serial killer compulsion ever. "I steal your powers...and then eat your brain to show my dominance over you/make sure nobody else can have them! BWAHAHA!"