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Hmmm. I guess I'll need to add another Cap variation. Paging C6!
And for the record, I don't care for the costume design. Reminds me of the golden age Shield too much. But we'll see how it plays out, eh?
Bucky? Is that you?
:o Whoah! That is great news! Though, they are still not sure who this new Cap is. :blink: I really thought Steve Rogers had come back to life there for a moment. :P
Quote from: Podmark on October 11, 2007, 09:25:28 AM
Bucky? Is that you?
Gotta agree its Bucky, the gun and knife seem to fit his winter soldier persona. Cant say I care much for the costume, the top half looks shiny. :thumbdown:
The idea of Cap carrying a gun and a knife is AWESOME! Makes him more of a man. That's also why the new costume is so GREAT! The point of the old shield design points directly to his MANHOOD! How macho is that?
Can't wait for what's next. Maybe Cap can do a drive-by? Or pop a knee cap? Or join a really cool gang?
Kudos on the team who re-imagined this historic icon. They're almost as the team who so brilliantly killed him.
:doh:
I'm totally on your side AS, but to be fair, it's not like Cap (the real Cap) never used a gun before.
Quote from: AncientSpirit on October 11, 2007, 10:01:45 AM
The idea of Cap carrying a gun and a knife is AWESOME! Makes him more of a man. That's also why the new costume is so GREAT! The point of the old shield design points directly to his MANHOOD! How macho is that?
Can't wait for what's next. Maybe Cap can do a drive-by? Or pop a knee cap? Or join a really cool gang?
Kudos on the team who re-imagined this historic icon. They're almost as the team who so brilliantly killed him.
I hate to tell you but Alex Ross did the costume redesign with nods toward the Ultimate design (like we needed another 616 character redesigned to look more like their Ultimate counterpart) and a mourning look for the original.. but I'm still at a draw that it's between Winter Soldier or a new soldier under the suit.
- CrimsonQuill
Is this some sort of joke? April isn't until next year Marvel. :rolleyes:
I'm fine with Bucky taking up the mantle, along with sporting the knife and gun (Winter Soldier-esque and because I know this whole thing is temporary) but that costume is ugly. It's pretty much a black leather suit with a Cap cutout for the chest and Cap's mask.
:thumbdown:
Epic fail, Marvel.
You know, this isn't the fist time that Ross's redesigns haven't been awesome....but it is pretty rare. I'm rather surprised.
Y'know, I'm okay with it.
At least Ross was thinking about the character when he did the design. I don't mind that it hearkens back to old-timer Cap in a way and the reflective armor looks kinda cool.
It's rather sad that an artist spends more time thinking about the character's history than the writers do...
Ha, true BB.
Heh... I've seen worse. Does anyone remember Cap's Exo- Suit he wore when the Super Soldier Serum overloaded Steve's nervous system?
The costume is pretty cool. I agree with Crimsonquill though. This "new" design has aspects of the old and the ultimate Cap costume. It just has some black areas and it's shiny. Otherwise, it's all something in another Cap outfit.
Guns and knives? Hmmmm. I know Cap is (was- Steve?- now someone else...) a soldier, so a gun wouldn't be out of the question. Steve used guns in WWII, but didn't in the modern age. This new guy will definitely use them. I'm not sure what message they are sending by having the symbol of America running around with a gun and a knife drawn (pun intended). I'll have to think more about that. :unsure:
Hmm...
Warning: artistic nattering to follow.
In all honesty, I have not been a big fan of Alex Ross' original costume designs. There's something about the line of them that I often find unflattering. It's... hard to explain, but it's just in the way they're put together that just never works for me even if the overal concept feels sound. This is another one of those cases. The way the point of the red/white/blue segment curves outward as it enounters the black gives Cap's body an usual shape (his lower chest almost appears rounded). I know he's going for the shield shape, but for that to work on the frame, I think the point wound need to stop at the base of the sternum and keep the curves, or lose the curves altogether and make it a straight cut between the color and black. I also feel a belt wound break up the costume, but I think Alex and I differ on the usefulness of belts in general. ;) And finally, I think the the flexable chrome is a bit off-putting. I think it would work better to have the chromy parts as rigid armor, or preferably, not use the chromy shininess on the costume.
The gun and the knife don't bother me that much actually, as long as he isn't written like the Punisher with them. Non-lethal should be the primary method of attack, falling back on the other weapons as a last resort.
Gonna have to see what they do with him though before I can really do a verdict.
Quite simply, it sucks.
I don't care for that type of gloves at all. The only character I can think of offhand that it works on is the Spectre. I can deal with the red, white and blue parts being shiny, but most of the suit being black sucks. It would look less awful if the belt and boots were colored differently, and with maybe red, white and blue stripes down the side of each leg.
Here's hoping someone at Marvel gets some sense and Steve is back by #50, if not sooner.
ummmm.....ICK!!?
While I might have liked the basic costume design (shiny/black) on a *new* character, it's definitely NOT Cap. All it does evoke from me (aside from the initial revulsion) is "ooh, look, someone is disgracing Cap's memory." I predict this will go the route of all the *other* post-WWII non-Steve Rogers Caps......unsuccessful and mostly forgotten. (no offense, USAgent ;))
Upon reading the article, a couple things stuck out that bothered me:
Quote from: Alex Ross"Well, funny enough, there's this awful movie serial made in the '40s with Cap where he had no shield, no wings on his mask, no white sleeves, little tiny gloves, and he carried a gun."
If it was that awful, why bother incorporating anything from it???
Quote"Well I think in many ways we want people to react with whatever emotions that come to mind," says Ross. "The idea that Captain America would have an offensive weapon like a gun...if it's an upset feeling, we want it to be so. We want it to feel like, 'Oh, he's got a gun now. Captain America with a gun?!' You know, it should stick in your mind that that's something."
Quote from: Brubaker"I'm not worried about it that much because the costume design looks so cool I figure everybody [will] love it, but I'm sure that there'll be people who are furious about it."
So, not only are we still stuck with the "every thought & reaction is valid", but we're also getting "I love it, so everyone else will, too!"? How blind, ignorant, and arrogant is that?
Quote from: Brubaker"You know, nobody's really complained about it, but after nine months I think people will be glad to have at least somebody running around in a Captain America costume in the book.
So, in essence, we should just be happy with what we get, and not make waves.......or they'll just take him away again. <_<
Quote from: Alex Ross"This is not your father's Captain America, so to speak. It's a more brutish interpretation, at this point, for the modern age."
Do you have any idea how *tired* I am of hearing that "this is not your father's _____" garbage? It has become such a way overused catch-phrase for anything that was successful and been reworked into something almost completely different, just so that it could be "hip" or "current", and usually fails miserably. And if I understand that second line right, he's saying that the "modern" age is much more brutish than what came before. I guess the next cool title Marvel will be doing will be Captain Caveman.
gah....*throws up hands in disgust*.......Every day, Marvel gives me more reasons to celebrate that I got out of comics when I did. :thumbdown:
Not a fan of the chrome but the rest works for me. I find it funny that people automatically called it a Ultimate style costume. To me thats a modern style costume, anything that somewhat utilitarian is a fairly modern costume style that most newer costumes follow.
Bru's been doing a pretty good with the Cap title so I have faith this will work well with what he's doing. To be honest, I didn't agree with killing Steve, but I'm in no hurry at all to see him back. I'm not big on resurrections, unless there's a reasonable out in the story (it was somebody else or a body double do NOT fit under that category). So as long as the Cap title is successful I'm not in any hurry to see Steve return.
Alex Ross designed that monstrosity!? :huh: :lol:
I would have expected much better from him. He usually makes fantastic costumes. A swing and a miss here that's for sure!
Whatever...when Steve gets back (in his classic costume)...he'll send this chump running!
Quote from: Podmark on October 11, 2007, 09:25:28 AM
Bucky? Is that you?
Here's a hint! *Bucky transforms into a cannon*
Kind of iffy on the design. Like GG - um... belt? Anytime Steve get's snagged somethings going to pull. As for the weapon, he better be carrying something like a Desert Eagle or an AMT Automag V, using the .50 Action Express round. Maybe even have it use vibranium slugs. After all, how are you going to take down Juggernaut with something smaller? The knife is a good idea, a decent commando knife is infinitely useful, though perhaps a boot sheath would be more appropriate. Maybe after Cap finds a belt, he could replace the knife with an adamantium billy club or something. The sheild seems to be right out of place, only thing I could see him doing is using it to pin someone on the ground or against a wall while he dispenses justice with the automag. Of course being the comics, he'll probably jump in the air, do fifty flips, throw the sheild, shoot the sheild with each bullet defelcting perfectly to hit a bad guy, then catch said sheild just in time to twirl and holster the pistol.
And then when the story line plays out, Death will let Steve find the revolving door...
Quote from: Courtnall6 on October 11, 2007, 03:10:07 PM
Alex Ross designed that monstrosity!? :huh: :lol:
I would have expected much better from him. He usually makes fantastic costumes. A swing and a miss here that's for sure!
Whatever...when Steve gets back (in his classic costume)...he'll send this chump running!
Does that mean you won't be skinnin' this version? :D Just out of curiosity, of course. :D
on a side note......has anyone concidered Vance as the NEW Cap? I have been out of comics for a bit but is Vance not a possible candidate? the costume is Vance-like.
Quote from: Zivon23 on October 11, 2007, 04:35:25 PM
on a side note......has anyone concidered Vance as the NEW Cap? I have been out of comics for a bit but is Vance not a possible candidate? the costume is Vance-like.
Vance as in Vance Astrovik aka Justice? I thought about him as Cap, along with Falcon he was one of my preferred choices for a new Cap (I'm not a big Winter Soldier fan). I actually had a story idea spinning out of Civil War starring the surviving original New Warriors going up against Stark that culminated with Vance taking up Steve's mantle. I had a costume design too. One for Falcon as well.
But that's not him, Vance would never use a gun or knife he's too much of good guy to do so plus he has no need what with his telekinesis.
Quote from: Podmark on October 11, 2007, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: Zivon23 on October 11, 2007, 04:35:25 PM
on a side note......has anyone concidered Vance as the NEW Cap? I have been out of comics for a bit but is Vance not a possible candidate? the costume is Vance-like.
But that's not him, Vance would never use a gun or knife he's too much of good guy to do so plus he has no need what with his telekinesis.
Picture this.....Vance was Cap's Biggest fan.......Cap dies......Now Vance has no one to look up too.....he goes 'Dark'. The Gun and knife are just props to honour Cap's memory. Since the US is at war...they would fit the soldier persona......Future Vance wore a similiar costume.... as Major Victory. What is to say the Future Vance didn't call on a memory for the design.........?
Quote from: Glitch Girl on October 11, 2007, 01:12:54 PM
In all honesty, I have not been a big fan of Alex Ross' original costume designs. There's something about the line of them that I often find unflattering. It's... hard to explain, but it's just in the way they're put together that just never works for me even if the overal concept feels sound. This is another one of those cases.
Ah, and here I thought it was just me. From my perspective, I think the problem (if it can be called that) is that Ross' designs harken back to the garish (for lack of a better term) style of the Golden and Silver Age comics, but he renders them in his distinctly "realistic," on-model style, which makes for quite an odd fit. Many of the classic Silver Age and Golden Age costumes were designed with little concern for practicality or how they would look like if worn by an actual human being, many were created with a very simple thought-process in mind: it looked good in the context of comics art at the time.
When rendered "realistically" by Ross, many of these superheroes end up looking like costumed fans who just walked out of a comic book convention. Superman cuts a powerful and imposing figure in the comics, but a real person wearing a Superman costume, even one with an athlete's build, is invariably still going to look like a weirdo who wears his underwear on the wrong side of his pants.
Quote from: Zivon23 on October 11, 2007, 05:11:43 PM
Quote from: Podmark on October 11, 2007, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: Zivon23 on October 11, 2007, 04:35:25 PM
on a side note......has anyone concidered Vance as the NEW Cap? I have been out of comics for a bit but is Vance not a possible candidate? the costume is Vance-like.
But that's not him, Vance would never use a gun or knife he's too much of good guy to do so plus he has no need what with his telekinesis.
Picture this.....Vance was Cap's Biggest fan.......Cap dies......Now Vance has no one to look up too.....he goes 'Dark'. The Gun and knife are just props to honour Cap's memory. Since the US is at war...they would fit the soldier persona......Future Vance wore a similiar costume.... as Major Victory. What is to say the Future Vance didn't call on a memory for the design.........?
If anything would have truned Vance dark it would have been the death of the New Warriors at the start of Civil War or maybe the collapse of his engagement to Firestar, but he's fine in Avengers the Initiative as far as I'm aware.
That's not Vance, I'm positive of it. I'll eat my hat if it's not Bucky. I think Vance could make a decent Cap, but he's too far removed from the mainstream and creates too much of a different dynamic with his powers.
Quote from: zuludelta on October 11, 2007, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: Glitch Girl on October 11, 2007, 01:12:54 PM
In all honesty, I have not been a big fan of Alex Ross' original costume designs. There's something about the line of them that I often find unflattering. It's... hard to explain, but it's just in the way they're put together that just never works for me even if the overal concept feels sound. This is another one of those cases.
Ah, and here I thought it was just me. From my perspective, I think the problem (if it can be called that) is that Ross' designs harken back to the garish (for lack of a better term) style of the Golden and Silver Age comics, but he renders them in his distinctly "realistic," on-model style, which makes for quite an odd fit. Many of the classic Silver Age and Golden Age costumes were designed with little concern for practicality or how they would look like if worn by an actual human being, many were created with a very simple thought-process in mind: it looked good in the context of comics art at the time.
When rendered "realistically" by Ross, many of these superheroes end up looking like costumed fans who just walked out of a comic book convention. Superman cuts a powerful and imposing figure in the comics, but a real person wearing a Superman costume, even one with an athlete's build, is invariably still going to look like a weirdo who wears his underwear on the wrong side of his pants.
You may have a point with original designs ZD, but I really love his realistic renderings of characters. I think Superman never looks more imposing and heroic than when depicted by Ross.
Quote from: BlueBard on October 11, 2007, 12:10:44 PM
Y'know, I'm okay with it.
At least Ross was thinking about the character when he did the design. I don't mind that it hearkens back to old-timer Cap in a way and the reflective armor looks kinda cool.
It's rather sad that an artist spends more time thinking about the character's history than the writers do...
Just out of curiosity, are you reading Cap? Bru has been doing a terrific job with it; I'm wondering why you think he doesn't respect the character's history.
I've got the same feelings as Zulu about most of Ross's art. I'd never go out of my way to get a book done by him. Not my thing.
Captain America is one of my favorite comics. In fact, its the ONLY Marvel title I have in my subscription box at my local comics shop (which is actually a Sci-Fi City store in a mall here).
I do NOT like the costume design, but if its Bucky in the suit, I'll probably keep reading. However, if they pull some bs and do something like having USAgent suited up as Cap again (and I don't consider USAgent "Captain America #whatever", but an imposter), I'll drop the comic so fast it'll make heads spin.
Alex Ross mostly sucks at costume re-designs, quite frankly. I did like his un-used Spider-Man redesign for the movie and one of his Wolverine re-designs, but that's about it. Some of his Kingdom Come designs were also pretty good, but I am talking for original characters in that case. I can't think of a single hero re-design in Kingdom Come I liked that wasn't more or less a minor change (ie, the new Superman logo).
No... no... no... no!!!
Please dont let the new movie follow this crap.
Someone needs to so burn in hell for this.
RTT
Quote from: Zivon23 on October 11, 2007, 04:35:25 PM
Quote from: Courtnall6 on October 11, 2007, 03:10:07 PM
Alex Ross designed that monstrosity!? :huh: :lol:
I would have expected much better from him. He usually makes fantastic costumes. A swing and a miss here that's for sure!
Whatever...when Steve gets back (in his classic costume)...he'll send this chump running!
Does that mean you won't be skinnin' this version? :D Just out of curiosity, of course. :D
on a side note......has anyone concidered Vance as the NEW Cap? I have been out of comics for a bit but is Vance not a possible candidate? the costume is Vance-like.
If Ren made a mesh I'd skin it...but I wouldn't enjoy it! :P
I am not happy with the new look, i also gave the comic three issues or so after cap died....i did not like it, well we all cant be pleased. they wont get my money untill steve comes back
male_effects_CaptainAmerica? :o
Of all the ugly....he could have at least made the boots red to give it some form of aesthetics. And a pistol? Really? And one that looks to be of a caliber that 95% of the characters that aren't generic Hydra-esque soldiers would basically point and laugh at.
Seriously, why did they kill the man? Is this really leading to more sales? They plan to do a Cap movie, and we already have an Iron Man movie on the way, and yet both characters have been @#$%&* over so bad I'm not sure they can really recover from the last few years of idiocy. Iron Man alone has had his character destroyed so many times over they may as well just let him take over Mephisto's realm, since he seems to be Marvel's answer to the devil lately.
So much convoluted bullcrap, so much character assassination, it's no wonder I generally prefer Ultimate based ideas nowadays. At least over there the characters are basically just homages, so I can give the authors some leeway in terms of their stupidity.
Quote from: Bujin on October 11, 2007, 05:48:54 PM
Quote from: BlueBard on October 11, 2007, 12:10:44 PM
Y'know, I'm okay with it.
At least Ross was thinking about the character when he did the design. I don't mind that it hearkens back to old-timer Cap in a way and the reflective armor looks kinda cool.
It's rather sad that an artist spends more time thinking about the character's history than the writers do...
Just out of curiosity, are you reading Cap? Bru has been doing a terrific job with it; I'm wondering why you think he doesn't respect the character's history.
I am not reading it regularly, no. I am referring to the Civil War mess. And I suppose Cap's role in that wasn't completely mis-characterized, so I will stand corrected.
Boy, with that costume re-design, Cap's new battle cry should be:
"Hey buddy! EYES DOWN HERE!"
its complete crud in my opinion.. why is it half black?? it's not like you can be stealth when your top half is so shiny??
why don't the boots match the gloves? pretty ridiculous if you ask me... on another message board, someone mentioned hoer it reminded them of the newwest union jack redesiogn. thats whjat i think of too. with the utility belt and whatnot... but it really makes his hield seem out of place.
I usually love Ross' work but the spider-man redesign and now this blow.
anyone else got the sneaking suspicion that ross's brain is being drugged up by liefeld? >_>
Quote from: UnfluffyBunny on October 12, 2007, 11:53:16 AM
anyone else got the sneaking suspicion that ross's brain is being drugged up by liefeld? >_>
Hey, the new costume didn't have shoulder pads, did it? *That* is when we should start to worry.
Quote from: Panther_Gunn on October 12, 2007, 12:52:56 PM
Quote from: UnfluffyBunny on October 12, 2007, 11:53:16 AM
anyone else got the sneaking suspicion that ross's brain is being drugged up by liefeld? >_>
Hey, the new costume didn't have shoulder pads, did it? *That* is when we should start to worry.
Plus, unlike Liefeld's costumes, Cap has feet.
I actually kind of like it. It suits Winter Soldier, and particularly Bucky's early commando days.
i'm gonna get a lot of flack for this but i'm sick of alex ross's art. i will never deney the man as an amazing talent but he been so over played and i've yet to see a redesign of his i fully liked. i know it sounds stupid but a lot of his characters seem to look exactly the same even the women
not that i have any right to talk about an artists skill level
Quote from: Bujin on October 12, 2007, 01:10:58 PMI actually kind of like it. It suits Winter Soldier, and particularly Bucky's early commando days.
Has it been confirmed that Winter Soldier is the new Cap?
If he is, I agree that the pistol and knife would make sense (although I'm still not digging the new duds).
Quote from: zuludelta on October 12, 2007, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: Bujin on October 12, 2007, 01:10:58 PMI actually kind of like it. It suits Winter Soldier, and particularly Bucky's early commando days.
Has it been confirmed that Winter Soldier is the new Cap?
If he is, I agree that the pistol and knife would make sense (although I'm still not digging the new duds).
[spoiler]
My understanding is that Winter Soldier will be taking over as Cap and going on a vendetta against Tony Stark. [/spoiler]
Quote from: zuludelta on October 12, 2007, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: Bujin on October 12, 2007, 01:10:58 PMI actually kind of like it. It suits Winter Soldier, and particularly Bucky's early commando days.
Has it been confirmed that Winter Soldier is the new Cap?
If he is, I agree that the pistol and knife would make sense (although I'm still not digging the new duds).
Confirmed? No. But if you're paying even remote attention to the ongoing Cap title you gotta know he's the most likely canidate.
First off let me state that I am a huge fan of Alex Ross' work.
Secondly let me state that I have not read every issue of Ed Brubaker's run on Cap.
Now that has been said here is my opinion. The chrome on Caps costume looks like <bleep>. Seriously. I don't care who's under the costume, in fact I hope it's Bucky and not Cap. I don't think they should EVER bring Steve back. I'm a firm believer in "dead is dead".
Alex Ross has designed some classic costumes in his time but this is NOT one of them. It looks like crap. This is NOT one of those situations where someone says something and then looks back and accepts it.
Gun, knife, or shield I don't care about the weapons. The suit looks like poo-doo. Bottom line.
-MJB
Quote....he could have at least made the boots red to give it some form of aesthetics.
Ross must have thought red boots would make him look ridiculous...so he gave him
reeeeeeaaaaaaally shiny "Cap armour". :P
QuoteFirst off let me state that I am a huge fan of Alex Ross' work.
Secondly let me state that I have not read every issue of Ed Brubaker's run on Cap.
Now that has been said here is my opinion. The chrome on Caps costume looks like $h!t. Seriously. I don't care who's under the costume, in fact I hope it's Bucky and not Cap. I don't think they should EVER bring Steve back. I'm a firm believer in "dead is dead".
Alex Ross has designed some classic costumes in his time but this is NOT one of them. It looks like crap. This is NOT one of those situations where someone says something and then looks back and accepts it.
Gun, knife, or shield I don't care about the weapons. The suit looks like poo-doo. Bottom line.
That sounds about right...except for Steve staying dead...that will never happen. "Dead is dead" doesn't really work in superhero comics. There's just too many ways to bring them back to life. The problem is the killing off of characters has become far too rampant these days.
I guess I'm just indifferent towards the whole thing. I really like "Winter Soldier" and his deal...it only makes sense for him to be the one in "this" suit 'cause why reintroduce this specific character and have over 2 years of story if he wasn't going to the next Cap. And the new suit also makes sense because Bucky would never wear Caps Flag....for him nobody should. I don't mind the gun...I don't mind the knife....but I agree with GG and say that a belt of some kind would enhance the look of the suit...I don't super hate it...it's just like "whatever" to me. Just waiting for however long it takes Marvel to bring Steve Rogers back.
is it just me or does the upper body remind anyone else of what happens when you overdo your refl layer on a FF skin?
Quote from: Tomato on October 13, 2007, 09:33:01 AM
is it just me or does the upper body remind anyone else of what happens when you overdo your refl layer on a FF skin?
Now that you mention it..........yes it does :lol:
I like the costume less everytime I look at it. I thought it was alright at first, but many good points have been made about it's somewhat poor design. It does seem to point at his crotch.
Costume aside, I do think the weapons he is carrying is an issue. A gun slinging Captain America? With a knife no less? Steve used a gun during a war. Did I miss the memo? Are we at war? Wars aside, you are left with characters like the Punsiher who carry guns. Is that what Marvel wants to create? An american icon or hero with the same conceptual make-up as the Punsiher? Isn't there enough of a bad image of america already without making our all american super hero into something out of a Dirty Harry flick? Seems misplaced to me. Don't get me wrong, I like the Punsiher just fine, and Dirty Harry flicks as well. But that isn't what Captain America is about, is it? Maybe I'm too old fashioned.
I'm with Verfall.... what did they have to kill the original anyway? Less than a year later and their gonna throw a Cap suit on someone else. Eh. <_<
And Bucky is going after Iron Man? Yeah I read that too. Even in his current super-villain re-write, Tony would make very short work of Bucky. That story is pretty silly in my opinion. :rolleyes:
Yeah Caps supposed to be a hero other heroes aspire to, now he probably the going to end up the punisher with a flag(wait a minute didnt they already do that???)
:eek2: Jaw-droppingly bad.
I can't say I really hate the new "Cap" look, but I'm definitely not liking it, either.
My biggest gripe?
Belt.
Belt, belt, belt.
What is holding those pouches and gun holster up on that clearly streeee......ee......eetchy material? (And if it's hard to stretch then I fear for the well being of "li'l cap", if you catch my drift)
Why are the pouches there anyway (I mean at the waist, rather than existentially)? If you have a belt, it determines what the pouches are attached to, and therefore where they go, but without the belt, they just look stupid where they are, even by Superhero Costume Standards.
I sort of agree with the complaints of others regarding "shiny+matte black=no", and "hey, look at my loins!" being Not Good Looks.
And then of course we have the ubiquitous Gun And Knife, so we know he's a real bad-bottom. I was certainly much more impressed by the thousands of gun and knife toting nobodies dispatched by Steve Rogers than by the man himself. They were so much more awe-inducing and effective than he could ever have been. My hope is that they all get to take it in turns to be the "new" Cap and finally get the respect that they deserve....
Quote from: tommyboy on October 15, 2007, 05:41:34 PM
I can't say I really hate the new "Cap" look, but I'm definitely not liking it, either.
My biggest gripe?
Belt.
Belt, belt, belt.
See, I'm pretty sure there's actually a belt in there somewhere (it would be a pretty egregious oversight for an artist of Ross' caliber if there wasn't, considering all the doodads he's got hanging off of Cap's waist), and all the pouches and whatnot are meant to suggest the belt's existence.
The thing is, people are so used to Ross' level of rendered detail (putting tailored seams on Batman's costume, for instance) that when he attempts any measure of minimalism or understatement (a design error, if I do say so myself, since minimalism isn't exactly his strong point), it just falls apart and looks "wrong."
Grah, hate to dissapoint you zulu, but...
Last image on the page http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/lib/view2.htm?filename=/i/content/st/1582new_storyimage2051160_full.jpg
Gah, I take my previous post back then (This is the first time I've seen that particular pencil sketch).
It is pretty ridiculous looking as far as superhero costumes go, with the lack of a belt making it worse. And it just cements further in my mind why rendering superheroes and their wacky costumes realistically doesn't work most of the time... ironically, rendering superheroes realistically makes it a lot harder for me to take them seriously (a grown man wearing a skin-tight spandex costume in real life just looks horribly silly, it reminds me too much of the 1960's Batman show, and the gun just takes the unintentional hilarity over-the-top).
QuoteLast image on the page http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/lib/view2.htm?filename=/i/content/st/1582new_storyimage2051160_full.jpg
I took this picture and put back in the colors like Captain America would of wore the uniform and it still looked like a joke. If they ever use this costume in a movie, alot of people will be disappointed.
Quote from: Courtnall6 on October 13, 2007, 06:20:38 AM
Quote....he could have at least made the boots red to give it some form of aesthetics.
Ross must have thought red boots would make him look ridiculous...so he gave him reeeeeeaaaaaaally shiny "Cap armour". :P
QuoteFirst off let me state that I am a huge fan of Alex Ross' work.
Secondly let me state that I have not read every issue of Ed Brubaker's run on Cap.
Now that has been said here is my opinion. The chrome on Caps costume looks like $h!t. Seriously. I don't care who's under the costume, in fact I hope it's Bucky and not Cap. I don't think they should EVER bring Steve back. I'm a firm believer in "dead is dead".
Alex Ross has designed some classic costumes in his time but this is NOT one of them. It looks like crap. This is NOT one of those situations where someone says something and then looks back and accepts it.
Gun, knife, or shield I don't care about the weapons. The suit looks like poo-doo. Bottom line.
That sounds about right...except for Steve staying dead...that will never happen. "Dead is dead" doesn't really work in superhero comics. There's just too many ways to bring them back to life. The problem is the killing off of characters has become far too rampant these days.
:bandwagon
Biggest gripe is THE GUN. Cap would never carry that, and I don't care who is in the suit; as a symbol he shouldn't do it. I look at this more as Knightfall over at DC. Brubaker has said many times that he wanted to show why only Steve should be Cap and it seems that they are making the replacement look more like Azreal did when he replaced Bruce as the Batman. It is supposed to suck to so more people will want Steve back...I hope.
You don't need a belt to have pouches. Have you guy's never seen Snickers work wear? They've got pouches all over them. Us tradesmen don't like belts :P
Getting back to the costume design, I personally don't like it, and I'm afraid I'm one of those in the camp of "I want Steve Rogers back!". I must admit that I haven't read any Marvel or DC comics since the mid 90's, but I still try to keep abreast of whats going on through forums and the like. Sounds to me like Marvel are messing up big style.
i never understood why people go up in arms about the idea of cap using a gun, his core concept is a WWII solider of course he used a gun, come on.
hell even back then batman was drawn using them
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on November 07, 2007, 04:20:05 PM
i never understood why people go up in arms about the idea of cap using a gun, his core concept is a WWII solider of course he used a gun, come on.
hell even back then batman was drawn using them
Yes, but that was during different times and it was justifiable for Cap to be packing heat back then because we were at war.
Batman didn't use guns per se. At least, not against normal crooks, anyway. I have Batman Chronicles vol #1, and the only times he used guns that I seem to recall (don't have my copy handy, and don't feel like getting up to go get it) were against the Monk and Dala (who were vampires) and Hugo Strange's monsters (who were mutated humans that couldn't be changed back).
However, Batman did willingly kill criminals in some of those early stories. Even Robin killed one or two during his first appearance (fighting Zucco's men up high on a construction site he swung around and knocked one off a girder and may have knocked another one off with a shot from a slingshot)....
The only time I recall Cap using a gun and shooting someone outside WW II was during the Mike Zeck era, when he was forced to grab an uzi and shoot an ULTIMATUM terrorist who was threatening to kill an innocent hostage. Cap's shield was on the other side of the room and he had no choice but to use the gun, and he regretted having to do it. But it was a terrorist and not a super-villain or normal criminal.
Besides, how do we know the gun the new Cap (who hopefully will be Bucky\Winter Soldier and won't be around as Cap for long - I'm predicting Steve will be back by issue #50, if not sooner) is packing is a normal gun? Maybe it'll be like that needle gun that Nick Fury used sometimes or it'll be using specialized ammo - sort of a handgun equivalent to Hawkeye's bow and arrows, or just loaded with some kind of high-tech stun bullets.
I feel that it is wrong because Captain America is a symbol of the American ideal. As such, it was one of the reasons that Steve never carried or used one on a regular basis. The message it sends symbolically is what really gets me about having a gun as part of the costume now.
Batman is a symbol of fear, but really, in Gotham who is really afraid of guns anymore anyway?
Actually, I think it's pretty appropriate that Cap, Symbol of America, would carry a gun. He represents ALL Americans, not just "you guys", and a huge chunk of Americans consider the right to bear arms some kind of borderline-religious right.
Besides... Cap has actually killed a fair number of people over the years. He avoids it if possible, but I could name three or four without even thinking too hard.
"us guys"? I'm not against gun rights at all; just against anyone with the name Captain America doing it. He has the name of Captain, but not the rank. In the Ultimate universe Steve was a military man, but in the regular Marvel U the 'captain' in his name is honorary. I'm just saying that he is the symbol that is the essense of America, a bare knuckle fighter using his brains, fists, and shield to defend liberty-not shoot it out like a thug. Are they going to give US Agent a gatt next? Captain America is a symbol to aspire to, but what is that now? Anyone can "aspire" to be a man with a gun.
In that same vein, isn't that what the image of America is right now? I mean, we've got Captain Bombs-a-lot as our president. Everyone outside of America sees us as the guntotting hicks. We are actually evil in the eyes of many countries and cultures. At least when people die in other countries, most time they are in wars. American's kill ourselves with guns even in times of peace.
Quote from: Spe-Dog on November 08, 2007, 09:16:04 AM
"us guys"? I'm not against gun rights at all; just against anyone with the name Captain America doing it. He has the name of Captain, but not the rank. In the Ultimate universe Steve was a military man, but in the regular Marvel U the 'captain' in his name is honorary. I'm just saying that he is the symbol that is the essense of America, a bare knuckle fighter using his brains, fists, and shield to defend liberty-not shoot it out like a thug. Are they going to give US Agent a gatt next? Captain America is a symbol to aspire to, but what is that now? Anyone can "aspire" to be a man with a gun.
Spe, as usual, you and I think alike. I don't really have that big of a problem with Cap using a gun in war time, after all, he IS an old soldier, but I agree with your take on it.
Quote from: captainspud on November 08, 2007, 07:48:32 AM
Actually, I think it's pretty appropriate that Cap, Symbol of America, would carry a gun. He represents ALL Americans, not just "you guys", and a huge chunk of Americans consider the right to bear arms some kind of borderline-religious right.
You honestly have no idea what most Americans are like...
The costume still sux. :P
-MJB
Quote from: thanoson on November 09, 2007, 09:51:45 AM
In that same vein, isn't that what the image of America is right now? I mean, we've got Captain Bombs-a-lot as our president. Everyone outside of America sees us as the guntotting hicks. We are actually evil in the eyes of many countries and cultures. At least when people die in other countries, most time they are in wars. American's kill ourselves with guns even in times of peace.
This isn't really the place for this, but just to correct a sterotype: America may have more gun crimes than many other first world nations, but we hardly corner the market on violent crimes. I've traveled over a good portion of the Western world, and there is violence everywhere. You've got machete gangs in Edinburgh, beatings in Denmark, and riots in Paris. After outlawing guns in Denmark violent offenders began to use bats, knives, anything at hand, but the violence remained. For heavens sakes, Switzerland is one of the safest countries in the world, and it's BECAUSE everyone is armed.
Benton is right, this isn't the place for this. I'm guilty of egging it on as well.
Keep it on subject people. This goes double for that Emjaybee guy...
-MJB
Ok, I worship the feet of Alex Ross as much as everyone else, but I swear, the guy just reuses the same costume multiple times. The new Captain America looks like a patriotic Silver Agent, gun and all.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/Gorarat_greatclaw/SilverAgent.jpg)
Thanks Em.
Also: Assuming that the new Captain America isn't Steve, then wouldn't the new one be hired and maintained by the Initiative/current establishment? If Iron Man wants the new Captain America to have a gun, then the new Captain America is going to have a gun. Steve represented the American Ideal that created the country, the new one is going to represent the Ideal who ever is in charge wants to believe in. Although, it's not that the new Captain America is going to get to kill anyone important with the gun, since guys like Red Skull and Crossbones (Well, maybe not Crossbones...) are his main villains. It's like how Magneto will never be finally defeated for the last time.
Heh. Someone needs to model Minute Man with a bazooka to represents Patriot City's reaction to Captain America's upgrade in weaponry.
Fine. Sheesh, you guys never let me have any fun. Eh, I welcome change from time to time. Heck, most of the time. Gun doesn't bother me. When USAgent was killing his enemies wearing Cap's outfit, I was thinking "awesome". BTW, how do you wash blood off of that suit? Nobody liked the Punisher/Cap outfit either. I thought it was pretty good. It crossed both outfits fine. Was it the traditional Captain and his his views/outfit? Hell no. But, they both served it's purpose in entertaining me.
I've said it before but if the new Cap isn't Bucky I'll eat my shirt.
Meh ... from what I've read, I'm guessing the 'new' storyline is going to be something similar to when John Walker aka Super Patriot aka USAgent became Cap: idealistic patriot starts off well then shows how inferior he is to Steve Rogers by going crazy/obeying the government/being a spaz. The costume has a gun and knife, so you know something is going to go awry.
Steve Rogers returns, in his old costume, doing the same old stuff he's being for the past 50 years. Comic readers eat it up, and the new guy in his unpopular costume is relegated to Jack Flag status ... or just plain bumped off.
I don't feel like quoting, so I'll just jump in:
Thanoson, if you thought USAgent killing people as Cap was "awesome", you didn't get the point. Quite frankly, as much as I think the Watchdogs got what they deserved, Walker was disgracing the "uniform" of Captain America the entire time he was wearing it, and that was the high point of it.
Jakew, you're probably right about the new storyline in some way, and what will happen. The problem is it seems to be too much a rehash of what Mark Gruenwald did by putting Walker in the costume, except the real Cap is apparently dead this time.
The characters in the MU (Like that idiot Sally Floyd in "Frontline") who saw Steve as an out of touch anachronism and the real life writers who have said it doesn't matter who is in the Captain America costume just don't get it:
Steve Rogers represents the American Dream and the way things *should* be, not how they are. And he was NOT that out of touch; Cap actually used a computer BBS for a while back when they were popular to help him fight crime, and I'm pretty sure he kept up with modern computer technology. Who gives a rat's rump if he watched NASCAR or all that other crap that was mentioned in "Frontline"? I sure don't.
USAgent represents this country the way it is, and what's wrong with it, quite frankly, more than he does the American Dream. (I usually refer to USAgent as "A-Hole America")
And its probable that whoever the new Cap is (and I am betting its Bucky\Winter Soldier...or will be (ie, if its one of Stark's flunkies they get taken out pretty quick by Winter Soldier, who takes over the identity)) will be just as bad a representation of Captain America as USAgent was.
If the new Cap is a brand new character, I don't want them relegated to Jack Flag status when Steve returns; I want `em either dead or with enough permanent physical damage that they can't take on a different super-hero identity, because you just know that's what would happen.
I still believe, however, that Steve will be back by issue #50, if not sooner.
Quote from: GhostMachine on November 09, 2007, 09:58:30 PM
Steve Rogers represents the American Dream and they way things *should* be, not how they are.
Well said. That sums it up quite nicely. As Joe Simone said, "We need him now more than ever."
No, I got it. I just enjoyed it more than some people did.
SUPER BUMP!
New Cap is revealed and it's none other than...
[spoiler]Winter Soldier/Bucky[/spoiler]
Quote from: Spitfire on November 09, 2007, 03:10:12 PM
Heh. Someone needs to model Minute Man with a bazooka to represents Patriot City's reaction to Captain America's upgrade in weaponry.
http://freedomreborn.net/archive/index.php?topic=42111.0 (http://freedomreborn.net/archive/index.php?topic=42111.0)
Quote from: Previsionary on December 30, 2007, 04:42:53 AM
SUPER BUMP!
New Cap is revealed and it's none other than...
[spoiler]Winter Soldier/Bucky[/spoiler]
I'm not sure where that revelation ranks among comics' biggest "non-surprises"
Somebody should make some sort of comparative scale that we can refer to.
Quote from: Previsionary on December 30, 2007, 04:42:53 AM
SUPER BUMP!
New Cap is revealed and it's none other than...
[spoiler]Winter Soldier/Bucky[/spoiler]
Well duh. Seriously who else could it have been?
Quote from: Previsionary on December 30, 2007, 04:42:53 AM
SUPER BUMP!
New Cap is revealed and it's none other than...
[spoiler]Winter Soldier/Bucky[/spoiler]
and in other shocking news, waters wet, sky is blue and marvel have there head up there arse
[spoiler]What about Bucky's arm beating the snot out of all those scientists?[/spoiler]
I laugh out loud on more then 1 occasion during my weekly read of new issues, but never out of pure absurdity.
While it wasn't a surprise, I'm glad Winter Soldier became the new Cap. He really is what American is now. Violence, brainwashed, technologically enhanced, and always packing heat. I still hate that costume though. Just ugly.
[spoiler]I liked how they portrayed Iron-Man in this issue, looks like he`s trying to redeem himself.
[/spoiler]
Why is Cap wearing a Puerto Rican flag?
Quote from: AfghanAnt on December 30, 2007, 12:21:39 PM
While it wasn't a surprise, I'm glad Winter Soldier became the new Cap. He really is what American is now. Violence, brainwashed, technologically enhanced, and always packing heat. I still hate that costume though. Just ugly.
Let's not go through this again.
-MJB
Quote from: Zippo on December 30, 2007, 03:58:28 PM
Why is Cap wearing a Puerto Rican flag?
Heh heh heh.
A few years ago for July 4th I put on my Cap America shirt I got in Chicago at Wizard World. The GF at the time looks at me and says, "Rich, I didn't know you were Puerto Rican."
RTT
Someone brought up the Puerto Rico thing over at Byrne Robotics a while back.
As for Bucky (lets not use Winter Soldier, as that was his brainwashed name and he's not brainwashed anymore) being the new Cap, I think its the best choice and I kind of like the way they're setting it up (I just read #33 a few days ago) and I like how they had Bucky get the drop on Stark and Tony getting him to listen to him rather than having Iron Man beat Bucky and force him to listen.
Other than when he pulled the trigger on the gun Dr. Faustus gave him when Faustus attempted to brainwash him, not knowing whether or not it was loaded (and frankly, that was kind of justifiable under the circumstances), does anyone know if Bucky has actually killed anyone (or attempted to) since Cap used the Cosmic Cube to restore his memories?
Hopefully, Bucky won't kill people as Cap, but I wouldn't be all that upset if he does kill the Red Skull (who'll get better - Zola probably has a cloned body or two already waiting), Dr. Faustus, or any members of ULTIMATUM if they show up (is ULTIMATUM even around anymore? I know Flag-Smasher, who was their leader, was killed off).
*edit* Forgot to mention: I wonder if the fact that Cap's corpse reverted to pre-Super Soldier formula 98lb weakling form was either bad writing or a clue that the corpse isn't really Cap. When Steve had the Super Soldier formula removed from his body temporarily before he didn't revert, so why should his corpse?
Quote from: GhostMachine on January 03, 2008, 10:30:45 PM*edit* Forgot to mention: I wonder if the fact that Cap's corpse reverted to pre-Super Soldier formula 98lb weakling form was either bad writing or a clue that the corpse isn't really Cap. When Steve had the Super Soldier formula removed from his body temporarily before he didn't revert, so why should his corpse?
You're refering to the time in the '80s when when the serum was temporarily removed from Cap's body and later regenerated itself. However, there was an earlier story, in the late '70s, I think, where Cap temporarily psychologicaly rejects the serum, and his body does indeed revert to "98 lb weakling" mode. In other words, they've never been consistant about this.
after seeing one page of the new cap in action, all my doubts washed away
[spoiler]http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/Cap34_gun.jpg (http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/Cap34_gun.jpg)[/spoiler]
Okay... that page goes a fair way toward making me feel better about the new Cap. Unfortunately I'm not up on my Winter Soldier history so I only have a vague clue as to how this Cap ticks and what his abilities are. But that, I have to admit, was not bad.
Quote from: Thor Reborn on January 29, 2008, 06:58:35 AM
after seeing one page of the new cap in action, all my doubts washed away
[spoiler]http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/Cap34_gun.jpg (http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/Cap34_gun.jpg)[/spoiler]
Just another new comic I won't be getting. Even that one page really ticked me off.
Just read the issue, I liked it, it`s worth picking up. And i kinda liked the new costume, looks much better in comic than on the preview photos.
Just like the previous 33 issues, this one was solid gold. It may not be Steve Rogers, but a good book is still a good book.
I keep hearing great things about Bru's Cap, might be worth getting a trade perhaps.
yes, the issue was a good read and the costume, as I expected, wasn't as shiny on actual paper. Though, it does make me think the shiny bits are some type of liquid at times. *shrugs*
Steamtech, what ticked you off about Bucky using his own methods to honor Steve? I wouldn't expect him to be a carbon copy because that kinda negates change. Besides, it will give Bucky some new characterization and probably bring him fully mainstream. Also, this + his appearance in Young Avengers really paints his stance on Steve and being captain america, me thinks.
Was Bucky Cap in the Young Avengers issue? Or was he still the Winter Soldier?
Quote from: Podmark on January 30, 2008, 07:20:03 PM
Was Bucky Cap in the Young Avengers issue? Or was he still the Winter Soldier?
He was winter soldier, but he and Eli had a pretty good talk about the old[er] caps.
Took a peek at the debut issue of "new" Cap in my LCS... I have to admit, I'm pretty impressed at how Brubaker has managed to pull this coup off. Just like his concurrent work on Marvel's Immortal Iron Fist (in collaboration with Matt Fraction) and the late, lamented Gotham Central for DC, he's treading the fine line between serious drama and costumed superheroics and for now, at least, he's making it work. Just further proves the notion that a skilled writer can take most any concept, even one as allegedly contrived as the "shock death" of Steve Rogers, and turn it into a good read.
Still not a fan of Alex Ross' "Captain Puerto Rico" costume re-design, but Steve Epting and the rest of the art team did a good job of not making it look too garish and shiny the way it looked in Ross' previews.
Quote from: Podmark on January 30, 2008, 06:52:39 PM
I keep hearing great things about Bru's Cap, might be worth getting a trade perhaps.
Pod, I highly recommend getting the omnibus.
Ditto, one of the best books around
Quote from: Previsionary on January 30, 2008, 07:02:48 PM
yes, the issue was a good read and the costume, as I expected, wasn't as shiny on actual paper. Though, it does make me think the shiny bits are some type of liquid at times. *shrugs*
Steamtech, what ticked you off about Bucky using his own methods to honor Steve? I wouldn't expect him to be a carbon copy because that kinda negates change. Besides, it will give Bucky some new characterization and probably bring him fully mainstream. Also, this + his appearance in Young Avengers really paints his stance on Steve and being captain america, me thinks.
If he honors Cap by shooting people in the kneecaps he really doesn't deserve to be in the costume anymore than the punisher IMO.
Quote from: steamteck on January 31, 2008, 11:47:16 AM
Quote from: Previsionary on January 30, 2008, 07:02:48 PM
yes, the issue was a good read and the costume, as I expected, wasn't as shiny on actual paper. Though, it does make me think the shiny bits are some type of liquid at times. *shrugs*
Steamtech, what ticked you off about Bucky using his own methods to honor Steve? I wouldn't expect him to be a carbon copy because that kinda negates change. Besides, it will give Bucky some new characterization and probably bring him fully mainstream. Also, this + his appearance in Young Avengers really paints his stance on Steve and being captain america, me thinks.
If he honors Cap by shooting people in the kneecaps he really doesn't deserve to be in the costume anymore than the punisher IMO.
Because someone with enhanced strength hitting a person in the face with an indestructible shield would never do any lasting damage? I didn't realize breaking cheek, nose and jaw bones is more acceptable than kneecaps.
Well, technically Talavar, shooting someone in the kneecaps could cripple them for life. Pulverizing someone's cheekbones is just going to make them ugly.
Quote from: steamteck on January 31, 2008, 11:47:16 AM
If he honors Cap by shooting people in the kneecaps he really doesn't deserve to be in the costume anymore than the punisher IMO.
You said it!
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 31, 2008, 01:52:00 PM
Well, technically Talavar, shooting someone in the kneecaps could cripple them for life. Pulverizing someone's cheekbones is just going to make them ugly.
technically, hitting someone in the face with a large shield with enhanced strength could easily snap someone's neck, bruise an eye to the point of surgery, break bones, cause internal bleeding, etc. etc. You just drop that realism and go with what you see and forget the consequences.
Steamteck, he's not honoring steve by shooting people, he's honoring him by donning the suit and trying to be heroic [something cap wanted him to do, btw]. Him shooting peeps in the kneecaps may be an action you disagree with, but it fits Bucky's character as of now. Technically, you can't really judge him without giving him a try. If you don't wanna do that, well, you don't really have a full leg to stand on in the judgment area, me thinks. Besides comparing bucky to Punisher is a little extreme. They're nothing alike in personality or actions taken or even background.
PS. He used the gun in one scene while being surrounded and trying to adapt to Cap's style while mixing in a little of his own flair. Just because he wears a modified cap armor does not mean his personality should suddenly change to fit into Steve's mold. No other cap were carbon copies of each other and they've all changed something. If you don't like Bucky taking over the mantle, who would you have chosen and why?
Thanks Bentongrey. Punching someone is sure lots more heroic and shooting off their kneecaps and crippling them for life. Maybe they'll all come back with bionic legs and attack him. :D
I dunno its kind of discouraging this seems hard to fathom. My best friend saw that page and said he really wished marvel would just tank so maybe the characters could be bought by someone who gets it and cares. Cap was always his favorite but not this guy. "One step below the Punisher" was the call. Killing them outright is at least clean. Comparison is not extreme no matter what the circumstances around the action because of the action itself and the way it was depicted.
Methinks by just that page I have plenty of legs to stand on. If you think that's even vaguely in Caps spirit we simply can't communicate.
There's a whole big difference in a punch and a gunshot wound that everyone knows the consequences of in the real world. It was purposely sadistic p[lain and simple. He choose to take those particular shots and enjoyed it.
I realize we wouldn't convince each other and this conversation is really depressing me so I think I'll just bow out. My style hero doesn't seem to exist or even be understood anymore. They just get smaller and smaller every year.
Yep, the convo is going nowhere because I don't see Bucky as just a steve clone or someone that has to stick to steve's EXACT image. No one is asking you to change your opinion of Steve Roger's cap/classic cap, but you do realize that the mantle was passed on, no? That's why I don't have a huge problem with it because it's Bucky doing it...something he's been doing for awhile. We don't know how he'll change down the line and everyone is coming down on him hard because he's doing something Steve wouldn't do in the past few years (though, iirc, Steve has used weapons before, but that point has been argued to death).
The difference between me and a few of you guys is...I'm seeing this as a Bucky trying to fill someone else's shoes. Someone he probably doubts he can fill (as he expressed), but he won't let anyone else try. I don't just stick in the closed box where I think, "this is what steve would do," because Steve, as of this moment, isn't around anymore. It's similar to when DC changes their mantles, you shouldn't expect the new guy to do the same things as the previous owners and that seems to have worked out well enough.
Now, I could probably understand all the complaints and backlash a lot better if it was Steve Rogers or someone similar to steve that started going around shooting guns and such...but it's Bucky and this is how he operates...for now on a single mission on his first day as captain america...the tenth guy to hold the name.
But yeah...I'm done.
I did notice you ignored my, "if not bucky...then who"--but that's fine. :P
Quote from: Previsionary on January 31, 2008, 02:30:51 PM
If you don't like Bucky taking over the mantle, who would you have chosen and why?
I don't have a problem with Bucky being Cap as it's the logical progression of Bru's run as I understand it.
That said I always thought the Falcon would have been the ideal Cap. And I kinda like the idea of Hawkeye in the role.
Quote from: Podmark on January 31, 2008, 03:10:48 PM
Quote from: Previsionary on January 31, 2008, 02:30:51 PM
If you don't like Bucky taking over the mantle, who would you have chosen and why?
I don't have a problem with Bucky being Cap as it's the logical progression of Bru's run as I understand it.
That said I always thought the Falcon would have been the ideal Cap. And I kinda like the idea of Hawkeye in the role.
Yes, I can see falcon doing a fairly good job if his other personality is fully gone. Fun Fact: Falcon has replaced Steve before. See: Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty #8 and #9
Quote from: Previsionary on January 31, 2008, 03:31:13 PM
Yes, I can see falcon doing a fairly good job if his other personality is fully gone. Fun Fact: Falcon has replaced Steve before. See: Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty #8 and #9
Yep I knew that :)
Sorry Previsionary, I didn't ignore it , just lost it in my passion. To me Bucky's still dead guy so he isn't real to me. If he is Bucky then he is the logical choice but that doesn't change anything else about his conduct or worthiness. The Falcon wouldn't be bad and unless he has been Retroconned also he'd stick more to Caps ideals.
Quote from: GhostMachine on January 03, 2008, 10:30:45 PM
Hopefully, Bucky won't kill people as Cap, but I wouldn't be all that upset if he does kill the Red Skull (who'll get better - Zola probably has a cloned body or two already waiting), Dr. Faustus, or any members of ULTIMATUM if they show up (is ULTIMATUM even around anymore? I know Flag-Smasher, who was their leader, was killed off).
I'd rather him kill people than shoot off their knees.
I really don't know how to see this situation. Somehow, it would be better if Bucky shot them in the face than in the leg?
And just to address my earlier point - getting knocked out by a metal shield to the head could do a lot worse than making people ugly. Brain damage, eye damage, neck damage - all are significantly impairing, and a very real risk from how Capt. America always fought.
If one form of non-lethal fantasy violence - smashing people unconscious with a metal disc to the skull - is acceptable, is it anything other than the fetishization of guns, for good & bad, to see leg shots as worse, or particularly, worse than kill-shots? I know I'd take walking with a cane over mouldering in the dirt.
Quote from: Talavar on January 31, 2008, 05:01:45 PM
I really don't know how to see this situation. Somehow, it would be better if Bucky shot them in the face than in the leg?
And just to address my earlier point - getting knocked out by a metal shield to the head could do a lot worse than making people ugly. Brain damage, eye damage, neck damage - all are significantly impairing, and a very real risk from how Capt. America always fought.
If one form of non-lethal fantasy violence - smashing people unconscious with a metal disc to the skull - is acceptable, is it anything other than the fetishization of guns, for good & bad, to see leg shots as worse, or particularly, worse than kill-shots? I know I'd take walking with a cane over mouldering in the dirt.
Many thanks, talavar, for pointing out that damage by a shield is just as bad as a gun shot wound. I pointed that out above, but I'm assuming it was ignored. Again, people just wipe that aside because it's not a weapon we associate with life-threatening wounds or ramifications because it's fantastical in its nature. Like I said, somehow we wipe all that under some magical blanket and forget that Cap, with super human abilities, is swinging around a large metal shield that could easily take someone's head off, can cause major damage, can cut through several different material, and can reflect *gasp* bullets (which could actually hit someone), because he's Steve and he's never been shown to actually damage people like that (robots on the other hand...)?
Though, it strikes me as odd that'd people would accept Bucky *killing* under the "Captain America" moniker, but for shame if he chooses to add in a few of his own weapons besides a shield. :P
Just to expand, my main problem with most of the complaining is that people are unfairly judging bucky on Steve's merits. I don't think that's right because, surprise surprise, Bucky is not Steve. Judge him on his own merits and actions under the name Captain America, not just Steve, Jeff, Isaac, etc. He's his own character and should be treated as such. Also, all this complaining is sending a message; the first time Marvel finally tries to do a major change (which, iirc, people complained because marvel didn't change much after all their events), people try to shoot it down because Bucky isn't Steve. I'd understand it more if it was a really bad way of forcing a change (see Spider-man OMD or the clone saga), but this story was plotted out fairly well and Bucky didn't instantly take up the mantle. At least give the guy time to get adjusted before you all start throwing dirt on him cause we all know Steve will be back soon enough and you can be glad that Steve isn't the one pulling the trigger cause I'd think that'd hurt your vision of him more than say...Bucky under a new moniker. Besides, new guy under the suit trying to adjust while keeping his own flair/personality and trying to come to terms with stuff that's happened to him and those around him = new stories that probably couldn't be explored with Steve as the Capt.
Ok, Lets try it this way. I won't enjoy reading about ANY superhero who crippled people on purpose That's its Captain America makes it infinitely worse. If Superman ever really dies will his successor heat vision peoples legs off and it be OK because he's not quite the original Superman?
The Knee shots are just nasty petty and unheroic. If Cap is just another guy with a gun I have no use for him.
Quote from: steamteck on January 31, 2008, 08:31:13 PM
Ok, Lets try it this way. I won't enjoy reading about ANY superhero who crippled people on purpose That's its Captain America makes it infinitely worse. If Superman ever really dies will his successor heat vision peoples legs off and it be OK because he's not quite the original Superman?
The Knee shots are just nasty petty and unheroic. If Cap is just another guy with a gun I have no use for him.
:thumbup:
Stopped collecting captain america the issue before he died and never looked back
this all reminds me of az-bats. remember? changed the costume, killed and hurt ppl a lot. didn't last.
Quote from: bearded on February 01, 2008, 05:03:29 AM
this all reminds me of az-bats. remember? changed the costume, killed and hurt ppl a lot. didn't last.
One of my least favorite characters ever. So yeah but worse in this case IMO.
i think what's worse is that ppl seem to be buying it. literally. which means it will last.
new generation of readers. i mean, who am i to say?
i'm putting my vote with "Senoirity", by zuludelta and tortuga, when it comes out.
I guess if it sells it'll stay but I sure hope not. I just wish they'd have more comics with the traditional heroes my kids including my teenager could read. she devours manga but she also really loves the old comics in my collection. She would love some new Wonder Woman or Batman for example, but the new stuff just doesn't have it for her.
If guys with conventional basic handguns are so effective though. Why should we need superheroes?
I burrowed this from Bill Keyes on the HERO games forum:
CapGun is awesome! I can see the next 6 months of storylines:
Exciting Issue #1:
Red Skull: Captain America! You are too late! My nefarious scheme...
CapGun: *Blam!*
Red Skull: *Dies*
Sensational Issue #2:
Baron Zemo: Once again, verdammt Amerikaner, you see that...
CapGun: *Blam!*
Baron Zemo: *Dies*
Thrilling Issue #3:
MODOK: Foolish human...
CapGun: *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* ('cause MODOK is a machine, see, so he takes more than one shot)
MODOK: *Dies*
Fantastic Issue #4:
Batroc: Now I, Batroc ze Leapaire, shall steal ze...
CapGun: *Blam!*
Batroc: *Dies*
Fundamental Issue #5:
Madame Hydra: So you see, Captain...
CapGun: *Blam!*
Madame Hydra: *Dies*
Spectacular Issue #6:
CapGun: Hello? Anyone? Hello?
Black Widow: Sorry Cap. You've killed your entire rogues' gallery with your pistol. There's no one left.
CapGun: No one? At all?
Black Widow: Well... there's one guy left you could go after...
Galactus: FEAR ME, TREMBLING MORTALS!
CapGun: *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!*
CapGun: Well, f***.
__________________
(\/)
Yes, you got your point across. Hate gun. You overexaggerated it as well. You can cut it out and let the discussion progress elsewhere now because this discussions is slowly going back to what it was BEFORE Bucky took over and brubaker started all that development. It's not for you, fine. Let other people who do enjoy it roll with it without all the hyperbole about a weapon he's used once as cap and you don't know how it'll develop down the line...or maybe you do. Your minds are already made up. *shrugs*
FYI: He hasn't purposely crippled anyone. Being shot in the kneecap doesnt mean insta-crippling and you technically can't be sure where each bullet hit. Until the art/writer begins stating that, then you can't claim that as a reason you don't like new cap. If Steve as cap can do equal or more damage and it's not portrayed to you or you don't make acknowledgment of it because it's not specifically stated, then that same rule should be applied to Bucky Barnes. Just a thought.
Quote from: starlock on February 01, 2008, 03:57:14 AM
:thumbup:
Stopped collecting captain america the issue before he died and never looked back
Well, you're missing out on one of the greatest plots of all time. If I had to drop every single title I currently read except one, this would be the title I keep.
Quite frankly, I never thought of this book as a true Captain America title anyways. He's in it of course, but the star in the series is the Red Skull. Always has been. They should just change the title to "Red Skull: How I finally killed Captain America and destroyed his beloved country." :P
Inevitably and eventually, Steve is coming back. So, quit giving yourselves heart attacks. Sit back and enjoy the ride, cause it's a great one.
In Brubaker, I trust. :lol:
I agree with you completely Murs. ;) It's a good book....period.
I said before that Bru's whole run has lead to this, and I kinda think that Steve will return by the end of it. I think Bru has a complete story in mind.
Anyway Murs I'm seriously considering your advice.
Quote from: Podmark on February 01, 2008, 12:43:05 PM
I said before that Bru's whole run has lead to this, and I kinda think that Steve will return by the end of it. I think Bru has a complete story in mind.
Anyway Murs I'm seriously considering your advice.
You won't be disappointed. The omnibus runs at about $40-50 U.S. currency but you could probably find it cheaper on ebay or something.
If you're still not quite sure, just go grab the first 2 TPB's. I got the hardcovers of the first 2 for around 8 bucks each on ebay, I'm sure you could find the paperback ones for less.
Captain America is the only Marvel book I am reading, and the fact that Cap (Steve) is my favorite hero (well, favorite Marvel hero, anyway) and I haven't dropped the book should say a lot.
I'd rather Bucky not be using a gun at all or at least be using specialized, non-lethal ammo (like stun bullets, rubber bullets, gas capsules, etc - ie, like Hawkeye but with a gun instead of a bow), but him packing heat makes sense since he is a highly trained marksman. I think he's trying to honor Steve in his own way, and using a gun isn't that big a deal, as long as he doesn't use lethal force unless absolutely necessary. Maiming someone to stop them is one thing, but permanently disfiguring them or killing them is altogether different. HOWEVER, I actually kind of hope he does kill Faustus and the Skull (hey, they've got to find some way to get him out of Lukin's body eventually, and I'm sure Arnim Zola has more cloned bodies standing by or can make some fairly easily).
I know this is going to make a few people roll their eyes or nod their heads, but Bucky's history was retconned so that he was actually a young adult trained as a marksman and packing heat instead of a kid sidekick using hand to hand combat skills and acrobatics, and if you think about it that actually makes sense. And I'm sure that Cap and Bucky killed their fair share of Nazis during WWII, anyway; most if it just hasn't been shown.
Look at it another way: Bucky can't tarnish the image of Captain America much worse than USAgent did. Walker is a big tool and he slaughtered the Watchdogs (although, he did have good reason - they murdered his parents) with his bare hands while wearing the costume. Bucky actually has a connection to Cap and is trying to redeem himself for the things he did while brainwashed as Winter Soldier, so I think he'll be creative with his use of the gun instead of blasting every bad guy in sight with it.....hopefully.
And I'll say it again: I think Steve will be back by issue #50.
P.S. Come to think of it, I think they're trying to make Bucky as Cap a bit like Batman, except Batman cripples crooks with his bare hands instead of busting a cap in their knees.
Cap carried a gun in the Republic movie serial, of course. I think this new variation is appropriate, given the current sad state of the United States. American idealism is dead, and so is Captain America. In his place we have a gun-toting former assassin for a totalitarian government. Fitting.
you're treading political grounds and you're pushing the discussion towards something that it has been moved away from...twice. You know, silly thing, everytime the cap moniker gets a revamp doesn't always mean it's a symbol of current American OR the world state. Sometimes it's just a change. If it fits your "generalized" image of how america is today, fine, but save it for somewhere more appropriate, plz. The last thing this thread needs is yet another semi-political debate.
Quote from: danhagen on February 02, 2008, 03:27:59 PM
Cap carried a gun in the Republic movie serial, of course. I think this new variation is appropriate, given the current sad state of the United States. American idealism is dead, and so is Captain America. In his place we have a gun-toting former assassin for a totalitarian government. Fitting.
There is NO place for discussion like this on these forums. This thread alone had had a couple warnings. Stay on subject and out of the political realm. 'Nuff said.
-MJB
the question is, do superheroes carry guns? real heroes carry guns, in the real world.
there was an early phase in which superheroes carried guns. i just saw "next", the movie with cage. there was a kneecap shot, and it was done by bad guys. it just seems to me like something bad guys would do.
the writing is good. i'll give it that. it has vestiges of robin becoming nightwing, doing his own thing. or even speedy becoming arsenal.
it's just that guns are, in general, something that bad guys use, in superhero comics.
Quote from: steamteck on February 01, 2008, 06:08:45 AM
Quote from: bearded on February 01, 2008, 05:03:29 AM
this all reminds me of az-bats. remember? changed the costume, killed and hurt ppl a lot. didn't last.
One of my least favorite characters ever. So yeah but worse in this case IMO.
I'm one of those who liked Az-bats. I think marvels first answer to the popularity of Az-bats was bone claws, which i didn't like. I'm willing to give Buc-Cap. After all, writing is nothing more than re-inventing the wheel.
Quote from: bearded on February 03, 2008, 12:58:33 AM
it's just that guns are, in general, something that bad guys use, in superhero comics.
Except that's not true at all.
- Batman has used a gun
- Captain America (Steve) has used a gun
- Ultimate Hawkeye now uses a gun
- Cable
- Bishop
- Deadpool
- Agent X
- Green Lantern - John has created a green sniper rifle, iirc
- Ghost Rider/Johnny Blaze
- Vigilante
- 2-gun kid
- Jonah Hex (depends on how you look at him)
- The Rawhide Kid
- Bat Lash
- "Pow Wow"
- Trigger Twins
- Phantom Rider
- GI Joes
- Nick Fury
- Renee Montoya
- Union Jack
- Dum Dum Dugan
- Black Widow
- Crimson Avenger
- Shooting star
- The Green Hornet
- Angela St. Grace/Codename: Knockout
That's only 27 or so heroes that have used guns and do you consider them bad guys? I mean, even in freedom force we got Black Jack and Tombstone. Again, no complaints. In fact, people embraced them fully. Ironic in a way considering how people respond to guns in comics. Soory, that's a broad statement (like some of the statements in this thread). It's like how some people react to certain characters that carry weapons, guns in particular. ;)
Notice, most of these are people without any sort of offensive power like heat rays and such. If written correctly, heroes with weapons are fine. If you can tolerate hawkeye, huntress, and green arrow running around with arrows that can do the same potential damage and can kill just as easily (or more easily in some cases with their specialize arrows), then I don't understand how a gun can get you all up in a twist if it's depicted similarly. Besides, powered heroes can cause much more damage without our silly weapons and yet we nary complain about the destruction they do on a weekly basis. When was the last time you thought, "I wish Batman, Superman, Cyclops, etc. would just talk a villain down or use some other cunning to stop him without immediately resorting to violence. Don't they know they could do major harm! GAH!"?
Let us not forget that most heroes also have some sort of projectile weapon or power that does more harm and has way more uses than our 'petty' weapons. Heat beams, Ice blasts, lightning blasts, and tk/tp are shown to do way more damage and can take a life more quickly than a gun or an arrow (with less conscious effort) and no one complains. My point is, we can accept ALL of that and not say a word, but once we see something real used (ignoring bow and arrows for some odd reason)...there's a problem? That just seems kinda...odd to me.
I'm pretty sure, for the most part, most of you are reacting off of how guns were portrayed negatively/overpowered in some form of comic (90s?) in the past and you're just prejudging without seeing how NuCap will change his arsenal or attack pattern. At least, I'm assuming that. But remember, just like anything else, it can also be portrayed positively under the right pen. I can understand not liking it or agreeing with him having one, but how can you judge it fully when he's only been on a single mission? For those that didn't read the book, he didnt use the gun the whole issue, he used the shield and his own abilities [note: he's weaker and slower than steve], so it's not like he was trigger happy.
I leave you with this quote:
Quote from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/15/AR2007101501494.htmlBrubaker, who has been writing the comic book for nearly three years, says he's had people from the left and the right tell him what Captain America should stand for. But Brubaker says he's always tried to emphasize Captain America's military background. And the truth is, he adds, this isn't the first time that the Captain has been armed.
"I've leaned on the 'soldier' part of super-soldier," Brubaker says. "If you look at Cap in the 1940s, they have him with a shield in one hand and a machine gun in the other, and Bucky [the Captain's World War II teen sidekick] has a flamethrower.
"In the '80s they started changing his history, saying he'd never killed anyone. A guy who fought in World War II isn't going to care if terrorists die. I've always approached the book as a superhero espionage comic."
Brubaker realizes that everyone in the country doesn't read the comic book, let alone know the character's history, and that for some the Captain is more a symbol of untainted righteousness.
"To me, I'm telling a story," he says. "The idea that he has a gun really grows out of who it is that's in the suit. But that's how symbolism works. Some people see [the image on the Web site] and go 'Oh, my God.'"
[.....]
he adds, he hopes the attention surrounding the new Captain America won't center on the fact that he's armed.
"The actual content of the story won't just be about the gun," he says. "We knew it was a provocative symbol to put a firearm in Cap's hand. That choice wasn't made in ignorance. . . . When people read the story, they'll get a broader view of what our new Cap is about and hopefully he represents American ideals the same way Steve Rogers did in the past."
So maybe all of our attention will FINALLY move off of the gun and see where brubaker is trying to take the story and bucky and hopefully, we'll enjoy the ride. And maybe when Steve returns, which I'm hoping Quesada doesn't put him back on square one after the upcoming invaders storyline, we can appreciate this slight departure and people will stop complaining. One can dream, right? Cause, good gravy, I hope this is the last long-winded post I'll have to do for awhile or I'll start charging all of you. I'm not even kidding.
Bravo sir. That was awesome.
Quote from: steamteck on February 01, 2008, 07:23:59 AM
Spectacular Issue #6:
CapGun: Hello? Anyone? Hello?
Black Widow: Sorry Cap. You've killed your entire rogues' gallery with your pistol. There's no one left.
CapGun: No one? At all?
Black Widow: Well... there's one guy left you could go after...
Galactus: FEAR ME, TREMBLING MORTALS!
CapGun: *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!* *Blam! Ping!*
CapGun: Well, f***.
Yet, somehow, the Punisher still has the few enemies he repeatedly fights. Well, ok, I guess it's just Jigsaw who's the only member of his Rogue's Gallery. But still, even with him killing all the bad-guys he can find, he still has an interesting series which has lasted for far longer than 6-issues and he has never had to pick a fight with the Eater-of-Worlds to fill out an issue.
Anyway, I assume Captain-Bucky won't shoot the important people like Madam Hydra merely because he wants to capture them. Bad news for the mooks, though, they just won't get away with broken teeth and ribs next time they fight the Captain.
Sorry. I didn't regard that comment as particularly political. Just an observation about the zeitgeist.
<nitpick>Batman very quickly stopped using guns, and now doesn't as a matter of policy. And the Green Hornet's and Crimson Avenger's guns didn't fire bullets; they were KO gas guns.</nitpick>
During the 90s even the Fanstastic Fource used guns:
http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/comic_coverage/2008/01/worst-cover-eve.html (http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/comic_coverage/2008/01/worst-cover-eve.html)
Which in and of itself is a reason not to have heroes use them: flashbacks of giant shoulderpads and holographic covers.
Super heroes regularly used guns in the movie serials of the 1940s, and killed people in the comics of the 1930s. After all, they began as power fantasies made necessary the Depression, and were sustained by the desperate situation of WWII. But the guns were quickly discarded for two reasons, I think — because people were uncomfortable creating fantasies for children about killing, and because gunning people down does not reflect civilized values. I can't imagine the people on the Planet Krypton using guns, for example.
I have seen The Hulk use guns too.
Quote from: HumanTon on February 03, 2008, 10:40:53 AM
<nitpick>Batman very quickly stopped using guns, and now doesn't as a matter of policy. And the Green Hornet's and Crimson Avenger's guns didn't fire bullets; they were KO gas guns.</nitpick>
During the 90s even the Fanstastic Fource used guns:
http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/comic_coverage/2008/01/worst-cover-eve.html (http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/comic_coverage/2008/01/worst-cover-eve.html)
Which in and of itself is a reason not to have heroes use them: flashbacks of giant shoulderpads and holographic covers.
many people on the list used specialized bullets. that wasn't the issue. People are freaking out simply because Bucky has a gun (were you guys as bothered when Bucky as Winter Soldier and afterwards used a gun? Just wondering). Also, heroes DO have guns, that shouldn't be an issue either. Vigilante is more or less a fan favorite and people loved him in JLU...he used a gun. Also, I point out FFVTTR again, tombstone is a fan favorite. He uses a gun. Doesn't matter what he uses as a bullet...he has...a gun. Bucky, at any moment, can drop the gun or switch to rubber bullets or paralyzing cartridges and still keep the gun. Also note, I didn't mention a time limit...I said they've used a gun...not that they kept it. And from it came development. It wasn't really needed in batman's circumstances, but it reinforced his already held ideals. The fan 4 and their villains use gun like objects quite a lot. Ray guns, nullifiers, etc...doesn't shoot bullets...gun none the less. Guns have been in fantasy for a good amount of time and they're not just gonna disappear from it. It all depends on the depiction and you shouldn't just hate it because it's there. Also, I already negated your 90s comment. Leave that period alone...do you want us to explode? :P
I really wish everyone would just move pass this and wait until you have more proof or evidence to fully form an opinion. Now it just seems like we're running in circles and arguing/debating just to do it because everyone is being stubborn. Removing guns from heroes isn't an answer. Some heroes actually depend on them and if you remove guns, you remove part of their character. Removing guns in general, means you should remove all variants. If you're able to remove guns, then what's next? Grenades, bows, boomerangs, then all weapons? Eventually you'll have to remove super powers too and that's just boring. I, speaking for myself alone, don't know what the big deal is at this moment. He's not mowing down people, he's not gung ho with a gun, he hasn't done anything to warrant all this negative reaction YET. You can all go crazy when you actually have something in ink that proves all this hyperbole and you can go rant happy...when it and if it happens, but for now, I wish everyone would just give the story a chance to actually evolve into something so, you know, actual discussion can take place without referencing weapons.
Comics books are not longer for small children, so there's no problem with guns there. And as for whether guns are appropriate to civilized beings, that's a theme that could be explored and developed in super hero tales that include guns.
Ok, I guess it's time that I get back into this one again.
Quoteit's just that guns are, in general, something that bad guys use, in superhero comics.
QuoteExcept that's not true at all.
- Batman has used a gun
- Captain America (Steve) has used a gun
Ok, first lets not confuse rare usage... with the common use of. He did say in general and off the top of your head... this list, of which I have some issues with, you said 27 are heroes. Lets say common use of, like criminals. Second, lets also not forget that the above two characters had major issues with using the gun when they did. So including a character who uses a gun once or twice in a 60 year run to me - is bogus.
Quote- Ultimate Hawkeye now uses a gun
Do Ultimates really count? I mean really, the whole idea behind the Ultimates line I thought was that characters be more "realistic" - which kinda' means slapping a gun on half the characters. Thats like including Elseworld & What If characters as examples.
Quote
- Cable
- Bishop
- Deadpool
- Agent X
Ugh. Could care less for the top two characters, but again... but lets examine their origins. Two characters from a post apocalyptic/bleak future that travel back to our time. Key phrases to me is post apocalyptic/bleak and future. My opinion only, but I pretty much toss them in the same category as Elseworld & What If characters. Not only that, but if I recall - wasn't it Liefield himself who pretty much said Cable was based off Dirty Harry? 'Nuff said about that really.
Ugh. I could care less for Deadpool and really, this now Anti-Hero started as an established gun wielding villian. I wouldn't count him.
- Green Lantern - John has created a green sniper rifle, iirc
Really? Which writer was this? Of all the things he can construct and imagine --- he lowered himself to that? Man, thats just bad writing. Again, as with Bats and Cap I wouldn't toss him in because of one time usage and while we're at it - I'd have the writer fired.
I don't recall Ghost Rider ever using guns, much less needing them, he's a demon. If he ever has, again ---- I'd fire the writer. Johnny Blaze, yes, a magic shotgun that spews hellfire. I wouldn't count that, considering it's magic and not bullets. Now... if you said Crimson Avenger III we may have a good discussion, despite the fact the guns do fire bullets, the gun and bullets themselves do appear to be magical as well. The fact they are guns and still firing bullets although magical - I would say yes. You should include Crimson Avenger I & III.
- Vigilante
- 2-gun kid
- Jonah Hex (depends on how you look at him)
- The Rawhide Kid
- Bat Lash
- "Pow Wow"
- Trigger Twins
- Phantom Rider
Not to split hairs, but which Vigilante? Not that it matters, both were gun toting. The first being a western themed hero and the second (of which there were several) being more like DC's own Punisher. Way cool bit of trivia for you, Vigilante is also one of the few early DC heroes with his own serial. Still trying to get my hands on that!
Ok, now your stretching things. All those heroes are Western heroes and written for those genres specifically. No fault of there own they were pulled out of their own genre and into modern day like poor Rawhide or someone decided to continue their legacy into a modern day counterpart like the Trigger Twins.
If you're going to add them though, you have to remember; the Gun Hawks, Johnny Thunder... man I can point you two several sites with dozens of western genre comic heroes you missed. I have to exclude this whole section.
- GI Joes
- Nick Fury
- Renee Montoya
- Union Jack
- Dum Dum Dugan
- Black Widow
- Crimson Avenger
- Shooting star
- The Green Hornet
- Angela St. Grace/Codename: Knockout
Your kidding right? Your including the Joes? Your including a MILITARY UNIT? Alright. I see you included Nick Fury & Dum Dum Dugan --- why not the rest of the Howling Commandos? What about Sgt. Rock and Easy Company, man??? Why not the rest of the War genre heroes? What about the Haunted Tank guys? Now theres a big gun weilding bunch of heroes. What about the Unknown Soldier? Dude, again, you're pulling another genre in where it doesn't belong. The Joes' are out. I'll give you Nick Fury & Dum Dum Dugan though, at least they made them full fledge agents of a modern outfit.
I see Renee Montoya and agree with you there --- but then again, should we add every cop who is given depth in Gotham? You add Renee Montoya and you need to add the rest of the Gotahm Central group - at least Jim Gordan and Harvey Bullock.
Agree on Union Jack and Black Widow.
Green Hornet? No sir. He's a radio chap who was much later converted to comics. Cross media, now thats another can of worms besides... he uses a gas gun and a stun gun --- but not one that shoots bullets. Surely you must be mistaken and thinking of the Shadow... right? That must be it... because no way can you do this list and not include The Shadow.
No Phantom either?
And strangely - no Punisher?
Man --- I love... love... LOVE gun toting heroes and here I am trying to fight you on this... and here I am, giving you not one, not two, but three of the biggest that you some how missed on your list. The Punisher, the Shadow and the Phantom.
Now a hero slinging a gun doesn't make him a villian, but lets face it, heroes using guns isn't exactly common. Of that list I'd say only a dozen of those are full time gun toting heroes. Off the top of your head name as many heroes as you can... how many you got, easily 100 right? At least 150 with some struggle. 200 and if you're given some time to think and start using more common characters from the other companies? For all the characters out there... how many did we think up? Were talking a small percentage. How many on this list are in their own titles, at least a back up to main story or heavily featured? Smaller percentage still.
QuoteThat's only 27 or so heroes that have used guns and do you consider them bad guys? I mean, even in freedom force we got Black Jack and Tombstone. Again, no complaints. In fact, people embraced them fully. Ironic in a way considering how people respond to guns in comics. Sorry, that's a broad statement (like some of the statements in this thread). It's like how some people react to certain characters that carry weapons, guns in particular. ;)
Black Jack was a great tip of the hat to the secret/war agent characters of the time period who were often featured on the radio, as was Tombstone the same to the darker pulps. Neither was a reflection of the direct comic heroes of their time. One shot a simple gun... the other a magical one... yet you're forgetting the guy with the big gatlins.... Sky King! What gives?!?!
I think the true issue that you mentioned and I have highligted is not heroes using guns, but
which heroes use guns.[/quote]
Now setting aside the rest of you post, which is an excellent bit of argument... let me offer this to you. Were those the whole comics Brubaker read with Cap and Bucky doing those things... or were those just the great covers he looked at it? Do I even have to tell you about judging a book by its cover? Theres a whole gallery of covers to sensational Superman stories that make him seem anything but.
Also, lets apply the time and what we did and did not see. War time stories. And how many of those soldiers did you see slaughtered from the onslaught of Caps machine gun toting? How many men did we see burned and melted from Bucky? We didn't --- we saw them running away in terror, often comically. Sign of the times. If it was now a day, I'm sure we'd see something different.
Does that mean we should?
I thought this is what the What if, and lately the Ultimates line was for.
Again, the issue is not a hero who is gun slinging. The issue is which one... and why.
Its like when someone turned the Shadow into just a head on top of a robotic body. What was next? The Shadow ditching his dual 45's and firing repulsors from his hand? Maybe even a shield? See what I'm getting at?
I'm sure Brubaker is writing a good story, I'm sure he's writing a damn good story and he's doing a great and bang up job with it. He's taking a bad idea and making it gold.
Doesn't change it for me though.
Doesn't change the fact its a bad idea.
Doesn't change the fact what happened, never should have happened --- especially with all the other lines we have out there. Why do we need the Winter Soldier to be the new Captain America with guns. We don't. Thinking like that should be for the What Ifs and Ultimates.
Which leaves me to say this.
The idea that most of America and the rest of the world think that the new Captain America wielding guns is a direct reflection of the modern America...
... is all the more reason why we need a Captain America that does not use guns.
RTT
*sigh* THose were names off the top of my head that use guns! I didn't make a case on any of them. I never mentioned anything EXACT about them. I said they used them. If you're gonna argue them, atleast stick to things I actually said. My gah. This is basically what I'm talking about...we're arguing just to argue now and it's kinda irritating. I didn't stretch anything, I didn't condense anything, I made a general list. FYI, cap and bucky...military background. ALso, Punisher was brought up a lot. How many times do we as a group of debaters need to go over him. All this negativity is just unnecessary in my opinion. Agree with me or not, atleast debate on stuff I actually said and don't blow it up just to make a case. I didn't do it to anyone else so I think it's only fair that the same standards should apply to me, no? ;)
Quote from: danhagen on February 03, 2008, 11:45:34 AM
Comics books are not longer for small children, so there's no problem with guns there. And as for whether guns are appropriate to civilized beings, that's a theme that could be explored and developed in super hero tales that include guns.
A great deal of the older comics weren't for kids either if you look at them in hindsight. There's a reason so many jokes about Wonder woman and bondage exist. :P Anyway, there's still plenty of young oriented books out there for kids. Marvel Adventures being one of them.
EDIT: Green Sniper Rifle was in one of those sinestro corps issues. That's a question for...Murs as I may be misremembering. Regardless, he also has a military background and that event, as far as I know, was well received. I don't think you can call something bad writing without having read it or just because you don't like a particular piece of it.
Quote from: Previsionary on February 03, 2008, 11:50:35 AM
*sigh* THose were names off the top of my head that use guns! I didn't make a case on any of them. I never mentioned anything EXACT about them. I said they used them. If you're gonna argue them, atleast stick to things I actually said. My gah. This is basically what I'm talking about...we're arguing just to argue now and it's kinda irritating. I didn't stretch anything, I didn't condense anything, I made a general list. FYI, cap and bucky...military background. ALso, Punisher was brought up a lot. How many times do we as a group of debaters need to go over him. All this negativity is just unnecessary in my opinion. Agree with me or not, atleast debate on stuff I actually said and don't blow it up just to make a case. I didn't do it to anyone else so I think it's only fair that the same standards should apply to me, no? ;)
If you're going to use them as examples... you need to bring the knowledge sir and the reason WHY they are examples. It helps, you know, strengthen an argument.
Its very important you understand certain heroes ARE not gun toting heroes. You're trying to argue that Green Hornet is a gun toting hero because he has a gun like mechanism. Which is a poor argument. Anything that propels than would be considered. Anything with a projectile would be considered - and your argument becomes broad and very inspecific and we are discussing something very specific.
If you were to include Green Hornet because him using a gun like mechanism made him a gun toting hero --- than why not The Sandman, or Blue Beetle? Both who used gun like mechanisms for their weapons - with anything but lethal ammo. Gas and light. You're arguing its the same.
No sir. You can't. It weakens your argument and I have to call you on it. Especially, when you include heroes who are not gun toting heroes and exclude obvious ones who are.
RTT
Uh, no, I didn't argue that. I said he has used a gun. That's not arguing to say he is something one way or another. It says...he uses or has used a gun type weapon. What you expand that into is a you thing and not what I painted it out to be. That's what happens when you assume things and throw a whole argument into it. But thanks for proving my point again, that's why I asked EVERYONE to move off the gun subject until more stuff comes out to actually discuss. Now, it's getting messy and you (as well as I) are contributing to it. May I suggest we both stop and actually take my previous suggestion of...you know...waiting?
I personally think that the image of the post-WWII Captian America helped define the rule that "Role Model" heroes during the early political correctness years needed to be unarmed. Everyone in the Marvel Universe had a gimmick (Hawkeye with his arrows, Black Widow had her wrist darts, Spider-Man with his web shooters, Moon Knight with his throwing moons, etc) and unless they were part of SHIELD, police force, or a military organization that they carried weapons that their kid readers couldn't find around the house unless it was replicated as a Nerf toy or homemade from around the house. Punisher was an anti-hero who was hyped as being a killer of criminals which made him a villian by nature using firearms/explosives so having everyone chasing him down balanced out that part of his character - he would have been treated like any other killer if he was caught and remained that way without his backup crew breaking him out or one of his arch-enemies trying to kill him and freeing him in the process.
The '90s era of comics just threw caution to the wind because Liefield started making other anti-heroes (Cable, Deadpool, The Six Pack) which fans liked and everyone else started to follow. Hence that costumes everywhere started growing more pockets, belts, shoulder pads, ammo belts, and a dozen or so lethal weapons strapped to every limb on their body. Of course that nonsense was retconned out of existance when the fad was over with along with the entire "Clone Spider-Man" mess. Less said about it the better.. ;)
The new writers on Captain America are reconning a few things just so things in Steve's history made a little more modern sense (Bucky being a young soldier and not a teen sidekick and a small arms and long ranged weapons expert - which makes sense that while Cap was smashing heads in close combat that Bucky would be hiding and taking out enemy soldiers from behind). Having the comic being handled like a graphic novel version of '24' and most action suspence shows these days then it would make more sense to have a Captian that would handle this situation in his own way. Bucky knew that Doom, Red Skull, and the Skrull Invaders had a bigger plan in motion which requires him to confuse his enemies and strike at them using non-Cap methods (Cap with a Gun? Why leave the AIM guys alive?) plus it feeds into the whole espionage mood. We still have the whole untold story of what happened with Nick Fury and who is involved with the Secret Invasion which when fully explained might actually make a huge amount of sense if you step back far enough (and hopefully not far enough that Quesada makes us all fall backwards off a cliff).
We still have the third Genie that Quesada wanted to put back in the bottle ("No More Mutants" and "Peter/MJ's marriage" being the first two for those who have not seen the scorecard) and I'm sure that Secret Invasion and Ultimatium are the tools for that to happen.
- CrimsonQuill
Quote from: Previsionary on February 03, 2008, 12:08:18 PM
Uh, no, I didn't argue that. I said he has used a gun. That's not arguing to say he is something one way or another. It says...he uses or has used a gun type weapon. What you expand that into is a you thing and not what I painted it out to be. But thanks for proving my point again, that's why I asked EVERYONE to move off the gun subject until more stuff comes out to actually discuss. Now, it's getting messy and you (as well as I) am contributing to it. May I suggest we both stop and actually take my previous suggestion of...you know...waiting?
The issue is not being argumentive --- the issue is being way to inspecific about something. You saying the Green Hornet is a gun toting hero is wrong. You are the one who brought the list in as examples. I had hoped to help you in seeing your mistake as seeing certain heroes as such when reality --- they were not.
I even went so far as to help designate certain genres for you.
Not only that, I gave you some examples of better people instead to use as examples.
I even conceded with you on certain examples and told you why.
Thats not being argumentative. That's called debate.
You said the issue than is that its not guns and heroes. But which hero is using guns and you know what --- I agree. But you have to use your examples correctly in supporting you're argument. You simply didn't.
You also said to wait and see before I make my opinion.
Wait and see on what? To read a story I don't care for? I don't want to read about a Captain America that uses guns, plain and simple. I don't care how good the story is. Its why I'm not interested in Ultimates or other such stories. I LOVE the Shadow. But I'm not going to read a Shadow story when he's a robot - the same as I'm not going to read about as gun toting Captain America. I simply refuse to do it.
You saying the type of gun it is doesn't matter. I disagree. It's also why your examples are so important as well.
Theres a big difference in a gun that shoots bullets and gun that sprays gas (not bullets!) and flashes light (not bullets!). So big to me.... would it make a difference to me if the new Cap used those weapons instead, would I read it? Maybe. I would give it a chance. I certainly wouldn't refuse it flatly --- like I do now knowing Captain America flat out uses a gun.
RTT
RTT, I'm being serious here. You're just attacking things now just to attack it. I didn't say The green hornet was anything. Perhaps you need to actually read all my posts, eh? I haven't accused any character of being anything. My focus has been fully on Bucky under the cap moniker. I really wish you'd just drop that and stop trying to start something when nothing is there. Heck I even said, and this is important:
Quote* Black Widow
* Crimson Avenger
* Shooting star
* The Green Hornet
* Angela St. Grace/Codename: Knockout
That's only 27 or so heroes that have used guns and do you consider them bad guys?
That does not translate into gun toting, trigger happy, or having a gun club membership card superhero. It means exactly what it says, they have used a gun at one time or another [doesn't matter what it shoots. I've pointed that out too. A gun is a gun whether it shoots bullets or not. Like a balloon is a balloon whether it's full of air/helium or not]. Stop making arguments or will a moderator have to be called in to handle this particular matter? You're way overboard here and it's not necessary. The examples weren't even a major point to anything. They were there for one purpose and one purpose alone...to show that those particular characters HAVE used a gun. You, and only you thus far, have been expanding it beyond that point. That's not a problem of mine as I didn't even reference them beyond that point, I didn't bring up any genres, and I didn't bring up any situations because that just opens up more cans of worms that can become much messier than this thread has already become. I named characters and I moved on. Perhaps you should too. Don't wanna read the book, then don't read. Just understand that you can't argue fully on something you haven't read or experienced, just like all things experience related. No one is forcing you to or anything. Now really, if you have more steam to blow my way, there's a handy function--a pm function. You can send me all the messages ya want there, bud. I'll read them and hey, I might even respond with some witty banter and more indepth replies that require more time than necessary...but here in this thread...it's just becoming a little rude, ya know.
So, perhaps you can move on now and other people, for or against, can as well...when there's actually stuff...to...discuss...and...complain...about? :P
Whatever...
Someone made a statement that in general heroes don't use guns.
You presented a list of heroes who do.
You used examples of heroes who used guns, I debated them. I don't care if they toted, wield or slung them. Makes no difference. But your examples were to broad and in some cases, at least in my opion wrong. You also said bullets are bullets - magical or not and I agreed with you. But what if what comes from a gun is not a bullet? What if its not even really a projectile? But a gas or flash of light? You said they were still guns and compared them to the same as guns with bullets - said there was no difference what comes out of them. I disagreed.
You're argument is a gun is a gun is a gun, irregardless what comes out of it. I disagree. You even used some poor examples assuming they used trick bullets, when some didn't.
You used some poor examples of heroes who used "guns". I introduced better examples.
You can't handle the specifics, of the debate - fine.
Find better examples next time for your debate.
I agreed with you on the second half of the post and it was indeed a very nice post and very insightful and well presented. For you the issue is clearly not that Cap is using a gun. You want to discuss Cap being Bucky. Then do so.
But the issue is for many that Cap is using a gun, irregardless of who it is. I had hoped I made that clear, that I don't mind who Cap is. What I'm in issue with is the gun, plain and simple.
You want to introduce a mod into it, fine. I consider it arguing the finer points. You don't want to fine.
Someone made a general statement, you made a list to support an argument of... what? Heroes that used guns to support, what argument?
I tried to come along and help clarify and maybe steer this into something more specific.
I'm not blowing steam. I'm not being personal. I'm not even trying to be witty. I'm trying to flat out debate. If you can't handle someone coming back and debating you about guns and heroes and certain heroes that do use guns generally, and those that don't... then don't present a list in hopes to clarify heroes who generally DO use guns when --- especially if thats not what you care to debate or discuss.
I suggest you steer clear of the issue of the gun then, plain and simple.
I'm sorry you feel like you're being attacked, or whatever... but some people have different opinions than yours. Some people have stronger opinions even. I'm not sure if you feel you're enjoyment is being lessened from it --- apologies if it is. But opinions are a fact of life. You feel the gun isn't an issue. Others do. Plain and simple. No reason why it shouldn't be present and debated about. No one is flat out attacking you, flaming, or being demeaning to you.
RTT
Quote from: crimsonquill on February 03, 2008, 12:12:40 PM
Having the comic being handled like a graphic novel version of '24' and most action suspence shows these days then it would make more sense to have a Captian that would handle this situation in his own way.
I just think that point is worth noting. Whatever arguements you can make for or against guns alot of them hinge on the genre of the series. And the current Cap title isn't a classic superhero book, it's well like quil said.
Within the context of this series it makes sense. Although I've never really seen anyone attack Bru's series (actually in all honesty I can't recall ever reading a negative comment about it), the problem seems to stem more from the image of Cap as an iconic figure.
many thanks, RTT. You've managed to fully misunderstand and blow out several of my statements [and somehow twist them into something I never stated. That takes skill]. Again, regardless of what comes out of a gun, a gun is a gun. Bullet types don't make a gun and it's silly to think so. It could be a bubble gun for all i care, it's still a gun. But yes, I really appreciated that.
also, I don't feel attacked and i can accept other peoples opinions without making a huge ordeal/scene and I try not to assume something that's not specifically stated. I, me alone, am just tired of the long drawn out arguments. I asked respectfully several times to stop it so the discussion could progress because this thread has been close to being locked several times. Sorry I tried to respect other people who may have wanted to join in and avoid arguments. That's why I offered you the pm option because what you're doing now, is rude to everyone that may glance in. It's not about me, it's about them, k. Oh, I didn't realize it was so much to ask for to stick to stuff I actually said without throwing in your several wrong assumptions, but that's cool too. Hopefully you'll tune it down soonish and perhaps even...move on to something else to debate about? It's only a comic sir, not something to actually act so extreme over.
Anyway, I, too, agree with crimson which is probably why I don't have a huge issue with it personally.
come on its been one issue with him in the suit and even then he knee capped someone, its not like he placed 2 between the eyes here. give it some time. i have no problem with him carrying a gun as long as they dont use it as a crutch, but the same could be said for wolverines claws, the punisher's guns or hell even batman's gadgets
[Moderator hat] Ok, you two. Debate is over now.
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on February 03, 2008, 02:30:10 PM
come on its been one issue with him in the suit and even then he knee capped someone, its not like he planet 2 between the eyes here. give it some time. i have no problem with him carrying a gun as long as they dont use it as a crutch, but the same could be said for wolverines claws, the punishers guns or hell even batmans gadgets
Given that I hate Woooooverines Klwas and Punishers Guns, saying it's only been one issue and he's only crippled three people (not one) carries little weight with me.
The "old" Cap may well have knocked out thirty Aim agents, with all the attendant "realistic" questions about skull fractures and brain damage. The difference is, unless otherwise stated, we can assume (or hope) that a "knocked out cold" villain always recovers without brain damage or loss of motor functions, because it's never (except one story where the Constrictor sues Hercules, and that had no lasting effects) been shown as otherwise. Ever.
In this issue we see three men shot in the kneecap from the front. From the back it is a non-crippling injury, (assuming no bone damage is done). Shooting someone in the patella, from the front (a smaller target than the calf, incidentally) is a crippling injury. If it isn't, then they can still shoot back, and they didn't. It is very painful, and very debilitating to be shot there, as opposed to a flesh wound elsewhere (ie, calf, thigh, bicep).All wounds hurt and are potentially life threatening, but the patella is bone, and shatters, the bicep calf and thigh are muscle and heal more quickly and completely. That is not my opinion, it is fact.
So we have to assume, reasonably, that "Bucky", as a highly trained agent of both the American and Russian secret services, knows all this, and chooses to use the shield as a decoy, then cripple them. And if you assume he is entitled to do that, as a "good guy", even though it is specifically cited that he acts outside of the law as a rogue, unlicensed hero (wherever you stand on that question), then you are OK with it. It's only "one issue", and three "terrorists". Morality only comes into play when he's crippled, or tortured, or murdered, thirty, or three hundred, or three thousand people, without arrest, due process, proof, evidence, or any of those other pesky barriers to waterboarding or naked human pyramids of "illegal non-combatants".
And citing that in WW2 comics Cap had a gun, or Bucky a flame thrower is about as valid as saying in those same issues all "Japs" were ugly buck-toothed cowards, so it must be OK to portray them that way now, huh? What was "true" then MUST be "true" now, ipso facto?
I never saw Kid Colt shoot a man in the kneecap, or Rawhide Kid. They always "unrealistically" shot the guns out of the Bad Guys hands. And it was absurd. Hooray for writers, editors and publishers who have the courage and honesty to show how a "real" bionically-armed-cryogenically-frozen-reprogrammed-assassin would act if confronted by "real" terrorists in yellow beekeeper outfits. Long may he apply electrodes to their gonads in the name of "liberty". After all, Cap would have, in WW2.(That is sarcasm, since theres no Emoticon for it)
I cannot deny that it is well written, and well drawn.
I have to concede that I cannot know "where it is going" in future issues.
And that worse has been shown by other heroes, or in other comics, (even WW2 Captain America comics).
But all those are criteria which matter not one whit when weighed against this issue.
He could have thrown the shield at their knees or heads, but doesn't (he chooses to bounce it twice then hit the AIM agent near Black Widow, arguably a trickier shot). He, and Brubaker, and those who enjoy this type of thing, make a deliberate choice, which is that shooting a man in the kneecap is "cooler", and "tougher" and "more realistic", than bouncing a Vibranium/adamantium shield off his head.
Yes, Adamantium/vibranium shields, men frozen in ice for 50 years, super-soldier formulas, blows that knock villains out without brain damage, all these are ludicrous. Ridiculous. Absurd. So why are you reading/writing comics about them if you hate it all so much?
If the conventions are so stupid, leave us "fanboys" to our stupid fantasies about decent, just, men and women who strive do do the right thing without killing or crippling, and have comics about the brave torturers and killers who strive to "protect freedom" like "Bucky" does.
And if we are going to cite the racist propaganda of WW2 as the model on which modern comics are to be based, let's go the whole hog. Have the courage of your convictions. Bucky has a flamethrower, Cap a gun, all "krauts" and "japs" are malformed cowardly thugs. Negroes are thick lipped caricatures and comedy relief. Women? Bait. Don't pick and choose, bring the whole unpleasant package, or leave it in the past where it belongs.
Stan Lee was a revisionist of the first order in his tales of Cap and Bucky in WW2 (under the restrictions of the CCA in the 60's). But do you know what? I prefer those 60's comics to WW2 propaganda, or to Brubakers nauseating "realistic" tribute to the sociopathic nonsense printed during WW2. This isn't 1943. We should know better by now.
I've read worse comics.
I've read more disturbing ones.
But this (Captain America #34) is still Wrong.
In. My. Opinion.
Well, referencing one thing doesn't exactly mean you're pulling up everything or agree with everything either. That's a huge jump to make for anyone. The cap with guns back then was relevant to the point now. I must say you really went a little too far in some of your points, but that's neither here nor there. Again, I must say, I said those people used guns, the question wasn't how they were used, the question was, were heroes really heroes if they used a gun.
I don't care for a good deal of many of the older comics that people refer to as the golden age because I don't agree with some of the depictions that came across then regarding races and women in general. Hello, they actually did an issue where Lois was an african american for a whole day and let's not forget that it used to be ok to show superman being super arrogant and they used to toy around with spanking. Saying it happened, doesn't mean anyone agrees with it...it means there's already a set precedence of it happening. But that'd only matter if superman came out spanking again or someone in his image. That's neither here nor there either. But people bought those issues, so I guess people back then thought it was ok...yet it's not around anymore either, right?
Buying an issue sends many messages and not one just set in stone. It can say, I enjoyed this issue for it's writing, but I didn't agree with this. It can say, I didn't enjoy this issue, but I loved the art. It can even say, I didn't enjoy anything, but I'm buying this so I can argue while supporting you Brubaker. It can say anything. If you really want Brubaker to know how you feel, send him a letter with your thoughts "spread out point for point" to him. That's actually sending him an exact message with your name letting him know exactly how you feel...and hey, sending a message is a lot cheaper than buying the issue then ranting/raving about it for days on end. :P
Sometimes, we readers, need to understand not everything is made for us. Comics have been changing every decade and complaining about it and fighting with each other over something we can't really control is pointless. They're gonna be more or less realistic depending on the core demographic (see zulu's thread for a good discussion about that) and it's really no worse than what we see on tv everyday. As crimson has stated, the current capt book has a new style to it. If this is the cap that fits the style for now, so be it...but we all know it isn't permanent and getting an aneurism over it isn't helping anyone, ya know.
A handful of major super heroes are more than fictional characters. They are memes, meaning that they change to reflect the society they inhabit while retaining something of the culture that created them. Captain America is one of those. All those super heroes carry the cultural DNA of the 1930s into the present, but they also evolve with the times. If readers accept an armed Captain America, then it's an accurate reflection of the times, and will become part of the meme. If they don't, it's not, and it will be forgotten. The society at large is really the custodian of such characters, more than the company that owns them, and the public will ultimately decide.
Previsionary, yes, it's a little silly to pull up everything from WW2 comics.
But you, via the Brubaker quote, cited Bucky as a gun carrier via WW2 comics. I merely point out how selective he is being choosing those comics as his starting point. And how odious those comics are in so many ways, perhaps including gun-toting.
I prefer Stan Lee's constricted-by-the-CCA version where they carried no guns and killed/maimed as few as possible on-panel. That was good enough (until Brubaker's resurrection of Bucky) for 50-odd years. Realistic? No. Stupid? Yes. (In many ways the defining characteristics of the Superhero genre per se).
And I have read the issue, not bought it, and posted twice, not "ranting/raving about it for days on end". Those would appear to be your characteristics, not mine, to judge by this thread, (and your inability to let anyone post criticism without your reply).
I can post my opinions and let it rest, you are compelled to post again and again. Maybe YOU should be e-mailing Brubaker, then you could let this thread go.
Whatever you post in reply, I've said my piece, I think it (the story) a bad choice. Not Eeeeevil, just wrong. Not The End Of Days, just wrong. If later issues supply a context that makes my two posts wrong, I'll be happy, and you'll be right. I concede that in advance, since I've been wrong often enough in the past.
But today, this issue, I didn't like much.
If you're willing to believe that everyone beaten unconscious in comics makes complete, perfect recoveries except when told differently in those rare cases, it's unreasonable to not extend that same conceit to non-lethal wounds of other kinds.
Sure, with medical knowledge from real life we know that knee shots are generally crippling. With medical knowledge from real life we should also know that getting beaten unconscious has serious consequences including neck damage, permanent nerve & spinal damage, brain damage, facial & skull fractures requiring reconstructive surgery, brain hemorrhages, etc.
Superhero comics are full of fantasy violence, but to bring that violence under the scrutiny of medical/biological fact only when it involves gunshot wounds is ridiculous. Unless a storyline references a non-lethal gunshot victim as being crippled, I'm willing to cut that storyline the same slack I cut those where super-strong people punch others in the head. To do otherwise is to have a weird double standard on what violence is acceptable, demonizing guns, but finding other types of violence perfectly fine.
Personally, I don't really like the death of Captain America storyline; I've enjoyed Brubaker's run quite a lot earlier, but this just doesn't appeal to me very much. Condemning it on the basis solely of gun-use, however, bothers me.
I've tried to stay out of this for the most part, largely because I haven't entirely made up my mind about the issues at hand. It's funny, because I've started to post several times, but felt like what I had to say wasn't really necessary. However, Talavar, I believe you're being a little illogical in your approach to the question of guns in comics.
It seems to me that the problems with guns is not one of "fetichizing," as you termed it earlier, but a practical one of image and interpretation. When Cap hits someone with a shield, you can look at it and say, "Wow, that looks like it hurt, but he's probably still alright." As you read, you fill in the blanks to make hand to hand combat less brutal than it might factually be (in most good hero books, but there are those that intentionally play up the violence of the world, which can be appropriate in certain contexts). However, when someone gets shot, it is a great deal more difficult to make that mental leap. A bullet is simply more deadly than a fist, a shield, a bo-staff, or any number of other objects, at least in the schema that we've been taught to read with. That's the key, we're working in a world with an established logic, the acceptance of which is part of the suspension of disbelief that we all undergo when we pick up a comic book. It's the same logic that dictates to our imaginations that a man can fly, aliens find something absolutely compelling about our little planet, and that a man dressed as a flying mammal could possibly be an effective crime fighter. It's not a matter of consciously interpreting these signs, we're simply following the patterns of reading that already exist. In mainstream superhero comics, the sign of the gun is, if not necessarily evil (which I don't believe you could generalize), most certainly a signifier for deadly force and traumatic wounds, whereas a punch or other hand combat blow signifies something completely different.
That being said, you should not be surprised, or for that matter, upset, when someone reacts very strongly to the sequence of signs presented in this comic. There reaction is only to be expected. I'm rather neutral on the whole issue. I don't approve of any of the circumstances that exist around this story, or with his use of deadly force, but on the other hand, I understand that this could produce a very interesting story. I even see a possibility for the issue itself to be the subject for a great character development. I just don't really enjoy the apples and oranges arguing that's going on here. Let's be reasonable. The hero's use of a gun does carry certain logical narrative burdens and stigmas, the questions is not whether this is true or not, the question is whether it is worth it or not. Prev. obviously believes so, Tommy obviously does not agree. It's as simple as that.
I just have to say that I found both Talavar and especially Benton's points to be quite interesting. Well said.
Ha, silly tommy. You're as funny as a hot pink lion dancing in a lime green tutu.
as I said in pm to ya, sir Benton, I can see your point and I'm glad you finally posted your opinion, sir. And surprisingly, it most likely won't spark a war of a million raving suns! May your aquaman finally get his just recognition. :P
danhagen really impressed me, with the talk of memes.
supers are all about symbolism and iconography. cap more than most.
winter soldier was a bad guy, right?
here's something to consider:
what would steve say to bucky, if he saw him shoot someone in the leg? ok, let's take it out of context, the symbolism of cap and bucky being blurred by ultimates and military backgrounds. switch the characters. what would batman say to robin about shooting someone with a gun? or to make it more accurate, what would bats say to nightwing, even as a peer and adult?
edit: i just want to say, i'm having a blast with the dialogue here, and i'm sorry ppl seem to actually getting upset. if i say anything that offends someone, at the slightest hint, i will drop so fast, you will think i was steve rogers.
edit again: i said nightwing and bucky on purpose. to draw a distinction. 'cause in this scenario it isn't nightwing/bucky, it is the former protege taking on the mentors actual identity! he, at this time and moment, captain america!
Wolverine has cut of some terrorists arm, stabbed some guy through the head, cut of silver samurai's arm and slaughtered countless members of the yakuza in cold blood. I agree that guns are more a bad guy thing but Bucky isnt the same guy as steve, i cant understand how people compare the two anymore even if both used the mantle.
my point is that it is the mantle that counts. it would be like capt america smoking cigarettes.
Quote from: Talavar on February 03, 2008, 06:18:23 PM
If you're willing to believe that everyone beaten unconscious in comics makes complete, perfect recoveries except when told differently in those rare cases, it's unreasonable to not extend that same conceit to non-lethal wounds of other kinds.
Sure, with medical knowledge from real life we know that knee shots are generally crippling. With medical knowledge from real life we should also know that getting beaten unconscious has serious consequences including neck damage, permanent nerve & spinal damage, brain damage, facial & skull fractures requiring reconstructive surgery, brain hemorrhages, etc.
Superhero comics are full of fantasy violence, but to bring that violence under the scrutiny of medical/biological fact only when it involves gunshot wounds is ridiculous. Unless a storyline references a non-lethal gunshot victim as being crippled, I'm willing to cut that storyline the same slack I cut those where super-strong people punch others in the head. To do otherwise is to have a weird double standard on what violence is acceptable, demonizing guns, but finding other types of violence perfectly fine.
Personally, I don't really like the death of Captain America storyline; I've enjoyed Brubaker's run quite a lot earlier, but this just doesn't appeal to me very much. Condemning it on the basis solely of gun-use, however, bothers me.
You make some good points.
The conventions of comic book violence are that after the knockout blow or punch to the head we often see the villain move and talk. Not always, but often enough to establish a genre convention that, like Tom and Jerry, or The Coyote and Roadrunner, no permanent damage is ever done. Other genre conventions are that the hero is rarely hit by bullets, almost never fatally, or even wounded seriously. So it's fair to say that we should extend Bucky/Brubaker the courtesy of assuming these conventions apply to our nameless AIM agents and their knees. Unless shown otherwise we must assume that somehow they will be back on the street or in prison within a few weeks, I guess. I'll concede that to you.
My dislike of this scene is not because I particularly hate the use of guns, or want a two-tier system where gunshots are treated in one way and blows from magic hammers in another. My dislike is that given a multitude of possible ways to have a hero take down three foes, he chose to shoot them in the kneecap. Now, had he shot them in the face or groin, I would have liked it even less. Had he shot the guns out of their hands or fired "tranquiliser" bullets, I would have liked it a bit more. It just seemed unnecessarily nasty to me, even in a genre that is overwhelmingly violent. And I realize that my position is somewhat illogical, but reactions to Art often are.
This one scene does not signify that Brubaker's whole Cap run is worthless, nor does Bucky's gun say much about real-life America or humanity in general. As many have pointed out, lots of heroes have, and do, carry guns, and we don't know if in two issues time Bucky might decide its not needed after all.
All of this is reasonable, but it's also reasonable for me to say that just as I felt a bit queasy reading the New Avengers issue where the super-strong, 500lb, steel hard skinned Luke Cage beats the 180lb, powerless Purple Man to pulp, I felt a bit queasy watching Bucky kneecap three guys. These things don't feel "heroic" to me (in the modern, comic book meaning of the word, not the ancient greek "fearsome warrior" sense).
I wouldn't say that they Ruin the comic for me, or make me want to quit reading, or are signs of anything of consequence.
But I don't much like them.
Others can barely notice such scenes, or enjoy them, and not be in any sense wrong. But for me they jar enough to post on message boards once in a while to say that, and to try to express why.
In terms of symbolism, I have to add that I can only regard having a "Captain America" who was a ruthless KGB assassin as an outrageous black comedy joke.
I have kept from posting here for much the same reasons as Benton. In general, I'm out of comics so I can say that "These are not MY superheroes" with that smug sense of self satisfaction that comes with being smug and self-satisfied. My main problem ithe the new Cap is that it is Bucky. The revival of Bucky was predictable, but undermines much of the character development of Captain America since the character's Silver Age revival. The death of Bucky is what changed Cap from a typical WWII patriot character to a uniquely Marvel character - loaded with the requisite angst. I also have major qualms with transforming Bucky into a behind-the-scenes black ops agent DURING HIS TENURE WITH CAP. This damages Cap as a character, in that how could a person who has been portrayed as a natural at assessing another's weaknesses and strengths an make best strategic and tactical use of that information, been so blind to the "true nature" of his sidekick. It is for these reasons that I can not appreciate the current storyline.
That being said, I do not think a gun-toting Cap replacement is necessarily a bad-thing character-wise. I agree, Tommy, that actions like knee-capping are highly distasteful. But given the parameters of the character (ex-black-op assassin), I can see a possible diection of character development, that WS grows to understand that "Captain America" has a different meaning, that he has to embrace a more noble vision of the role. One possible line of logic is that Bucky, not having worked with Cap since his early days, sees the role only in its most prototyical form, that of super-soldier, the role assigned to Steve Rogers by the US Government. Not having been along for Steve Roger's ride, he does not comprehend the evolution that the role has undergone sole at the direction of Steve Rogers. Captain America has transcended the super-soldier role, and aquired greater meaning as an American icon. The gun could serve as an emblam that this character must go through this learning process, and the rejection of the gun could symbolize the redemption of both Captain America (the role) and Bucky (the character).
THAT being said, I would be surprised if this actually takes place...
My two cents, take it for what its worth.
Interesting observations, Doc Challenger. I agree. This could be used as a springboard for a philosophical story line about heroism, although I, too, doubt that it will be.
Quote from: tommyboy on February 04, 2008, 05:10:42 AM
Quote from: Talavar on February 03, 2008, 06:18:23 PM
If you're willing to believe that everyone beaten unconscious in comics makes complete, perfect recoveries except when told differently in those rare cases, it's unreasonable to not extend that same conceit to non-lethal wounds of other kinds.
Sure, with medical knowledge from real life we know that knee shots are generally crippling. With medical knowledge from real life we should also know that getting beaten unconscious has serious consequences including neck damage, permanent nerve & spinal damage, brain damage, facial & skull fractures requiring reconstructive surgery, brain hemorrhages, etc.
Superhero comics are full of fantasy violence, but to bring that violence under the scrutiny of medical/biological fact only when it involves gunshot wounds is ridiculous. Unless a storyline references a non-lethal gunshot victim as being crippled, I'm willing to cut that storyline the same slack I cut those where super-strong people punch others in the head. To do otherwise is to have a weird double standard on what violence is acceptable, demonizing guns, but finding other types of violence perfectly fine.
Personally, I don't really like the death of Captain America storyline; I've enjoyed Brubaker's run quite a lot earlier, but this just doesn't appeal to me very much. Condemning it on the basis solely of gun-use, however, bothers me.
You make some good points.
The conventions of comic book violence are that after the knockout blow or punch to the head we often see the villain move and talk. Not always, but often enough to establish a genre convention that, like Tom and Jerry, or The Coyote and Roadrunner, no permanent damage is ever done. Other genre conventions are that the hero is rarely hit by bullets, almost never fatally, or even wounded seriously. So it's fair to say that we should extend Bucky/Brubaker the courtesy of assuming these conventions apply to our nameless AIM agents and their knees. Unless shown otherwise we must assume that somehow they will be back on the street or in prison within a few weeks, I guess. I'll concede that to you.
My dislike of this scene is not because I particularly hate the use of guns, or want a two-tier system where gunshots are treated in one way and blows from magic hammers in another. My dislike is that given a multitude of possible ways to have a hero take down three foes, he chose to shoot them in the kneecap. Now, had he shot them in the face or groin, I would have liked it even less. Had he shot the guns out of their hands or fired "tranquiliser" bullets, I would have liked it a bit more. It just seemed unnecessarily nasty to me, even in a genre that is overwhelmingly violent. And I realize that my position is somewhat illogical, but reactions to Art often are.
This one scene does not signify that Brubaker's whole Cap run is worthless, nor does Bucky's gun say much about real-life America or humanity in general. As many have pointed out, lots of heroes have, and do, carry guns, and we don't know if in two issues time Bucky might decide its not needed after all.
All of this is reasonable, but it's also reasonable for me to say that just as I felt a bit queasy reading the New Avengers issue where the super-strong, 500lb, steel hard skinned Luke Cage beats the 180lb, powerless Purple Man to pulp, I felt a bit queasy watching Bucky kneecap three guys. These things don't feel "heroic" to me (in the modern, comic book meaning of the word, not the ancient greek "fearsome warrior" sense).
I wouldn't say that they Ruin the comic for me, or make me want to quit reading, or are signs of anything of consequence.
But I don't much like them.
Others can barely notice such scenes, or enjoy them, and not be in any sense wrong. But for me they jar enough to post on message boards once in a while to say that, and to try to express why.
It is a brutish scene, I agree. It brought to mind a scene from Terminator 2, and I don't really want Captain America acting like the Terminator.
I used the term "fetishizing" in regards to guns earlier because all too often that's what happens in popular entertainment. If it's something aimed remotely at children, guns are typically demonized. At different times in animation characters haven't been able to hold guns, point them at characters, shoot anything that wasn't an energy beam, etc. Only villains use guns, and even then, almost no one is ever actually hit by a gunshot. The flip side of that is so many action movies practically being gun-porn, with elaborate weapons & violence that take it to a crazy, stylized place equally devoid of reality.
Guns are weapons, essentially tools of violence, but they're no better or worse than other tools of violence - including the fists of super-powered people. It's when people build guns up mentally so much, for good or bad, that they become the object of fixation that they are at times. That Luke Cage scene is another brutish one, but I'm glad you mention it, because it shows you're not discriminating between types of violence.
The question of whether someone who uses guns can be heroic is tougher to answer. Unless you take it to an extreme, where the character has such perfect aim that he consistently shoots weapons out of hands and that sort of thing, a gun-wielding character is going to wound and kill his enemies. Can a character who kills his enemies be heroic? I'm inclined to say yes, but it's a qualified yes. Situation, context and even genre are important, and it's a tough fit for a superhero comic. But I don't think a character using a gun immediately puts them in the same category as the Punisher, or Az-bat, or other vicious anti-heroes.
Ok, new comic, so I hope we all can stay civil and not rip each other to shreds...again. No gun this issue so it shouldn't even be a problem until it returns somewhere down the line...if it does at all.
I pretty much enjoyed this issue. Bucky seems to have gotten better with the shield in a relatively short amount of time and Sin returns back into the plot. Yay! The book also ends on another cliffhanger...two even. Cliffhangers are fine and all, but a bit more of a resolution would be nice by now. That's one of my main problems with long arc stories...it takes so long for it all to end and tie together that important plot points are usually forgotten by the readers.
A pretty good issue.
Yay for no gun.
Some of the art looked a bit awkward in the fighting scenes, but never got too bad.
When did the Black Widow stop being Natasha and become Natalia? Or was that her original name, retconned in somewhere along the line that I missed or can't remember?
I agree, some resolution would be good soon. I'm getting 'Lost' syndrome with Bru's books nowadays. They are always entertaining, and excellently crafted (like the TV show 'Lost'). But I feel like I'm constantly being strung along, and there's not going to be a pay-off thats possibly worth a year of my attention (not constant attention, but I have to remember stuff from 2007). No doubt in-trade, it'll read fine, but increasingly, individual issues are becoming slightly irritating to read, as I know in february that I wont see how this all turns out 'till july.
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap22.jpg
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap25.jpg
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap27.jpg
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap29.jpg
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap31.jpg
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap33.jpg
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap36.jpg
Probably a lot more examples, but I decided to stop looking after #37.
Buck's all over the guns in those pics. Nice to see where Bru's inspiration came from.
Quote from: Podmark on March 01, 2008, 04:35:41 PM
Buck's all over the guns in those pics. Nice to see where Bru's inspiration came from.
My point in posting those is that Bucky actually did carry guns and shoot people in the WWII era comics. It wasn't until the post-Code era after Cap had been revived when Bucky was shown only using hand to hand combat and acrobatics in the war.
All Bru did was bump up Bucky's age a bit and make Bucky a trained assassin instead of just a kid packing heat, which really makes sense if you think about it.
Quote from: tommyboy on February 28, 2008, 03:27:20 PM
When did the Black Widow stop being Natasha and become Natalia? Or was that her original name, retconned in somewhere along the line that I missed or can't remember?
Her real name is Natalia, but she also goes by Natasha (alias). SHe's a spy, so I assume she has many names she goes by, but Natasha is just the most common. The earliest I can remember this being mention is during her champion days.
Quote from: GhostMachine on March 01, 2008, 07:19:27 PM
Quote from: Podmark on March 01, 2008, 04:35:41 PM
Buck's all over the guns in those pics. Nice to see where Bru's inspiration came from.
My point in posting those is that Bucky actually did carry guns and shoot people in the WWII era comics. It wasn't until the post-Code era after Cap had been revived when Bucky was shown only using hand to hand combat and acrobatics in the war.
All Bru did was bump up Bucky's age a bit and make Bucky a trained assassin instead of just a kid packing heat, which really makes sense if you think about it.
Well, he was in the armed forces. So if he didn't have any passing skill with weapons, they seriously, what happened? Even Cap had skill with them, he didn't like using them, but he knew how to. Besides, no one who ever
want to go to war, let alone think they can go to war and not come back with blood on their hands. Be it from the enemy or from a dying ally.
As to the costume, honestly? I like it. It's not as painful to look at as the Iron Spider, and even that grew on me. However, the costume it's self doesn't matter. The real question is, can Bucky give off the feeling that he
is Captain America? I'm not just talking about to the public, I'm talking about to himself and to us, the readers.
Those are some pretty big shoes to fill, and yet, out of everyone who
could fill them, the only one that I could honestly say could fill them the best would be Bucky. Because Bucky knows Cap, knows how he thinks, or how he did think. So working off of his memories of teaming with Cap, as well as holding up to the ideals of what Captain America, and I'm talking about the identity of Captain America, not Steve himself, stood for.
If Bucky can do that, if Bucky can make Steve, when he returns, look back at all of the things Bucky did as Captain America, and makes Steve ask himself if he should really take the mantel back up, after seeing the good Bucky has done with it. Then I think we can say that Bucky has earned his place as one of the Captain America's. Besides, running around as Cap might help Bucky "wash away" the sins of his past as the Winter Soldier.
where is nomad these days? nomad's going to kick bucky all over the place.
Quote from: bearded on March 03, 2008, 02:53:08 AM
where is nomad these days? nomad's going to kick bucky all over the place.
He was dying of cancer or something and was shot by Bucky as part of Lukin/Skulls plan.
Personally, I'm really enjoying Bucky as Cap. I'd always found Cap to be pretty boring, frankly, before this (perhaps because I'm not American and therefore don't really have the same sense of patriotism/identification with Cap). His costume is looking way better in the comics than it did in the first images we were shown of it, and his gun use makes total sense.
I think it's being handled very well. I mean, Bucky isn't Steve so he shouldn't just drop everything and become a carbon copy of him. You can tell that he is trying to do him justice and I get the sense that he's easing the gun out as he becomes more familiar with the shield. Which again, makes total sense. He's trained in firearms, so not using at first would put him at a terrible disadvantage, but he's making the transition to honor Steve, which is great.
Like I was saying, I've never really been able to identify with Cap, but now I'm really getting sucked into this book.
I'm just hoping they don't make him go all "Azrael" or "Superpatriot"
Quote from: Zippo on March 03, 2008, 02:25:14 PM
You can tell that he is trying to do him justice and I get the sense that he's easing the gun out as he becomes more familiar with the shield. Which again, makes total sense. He's trained in firearms, so not using at first would put him at a terrible disadvantage, but he's making the transition to honor Steve, which is great.
Like I was saying, I've never really been able to identify with Cap, but now I'm really getting sucked into this book.
So, if they are making Bucky act more like the original Captain America. I can't help but get the feeling that Steve Rogers won't be coming back. So far, have they given any hints/clues/leads in the story that might still suggest that Steve Rogers isn't really dead? If there are, I'm really curious to know what these are. Just so i can get some idea how they plan on bringing him back if ever. Or do you get the feeling it won't be anytime soon either?
Quote from: Outcast on March 05, 2008, 12:53:31 AM
Quote from: Zippo on March 03, 2008, 02:25:14 PM
You can tell that he is trying to do him justice and I get the sense that he's easing the gun out as he becomes more familiar with the shield. Which again, makes total sense. He's trained in firearms, so not using at first would put him at a terrible disadvantage, but he's making the transition to honor Steve, which is great.
Like I was saying, I've never really been able to identify with Cap, but now I'm really getting sucked into this book.
So, if they are making Bucky act more like the original Captain America. I can't help but get the feeling that Steve Rogers won't be coming back. So far, have they given any hints/clues/leads in the story that might still suggest that Steve Rogers isn't really dead? If there are, I'm really curious to know what these are. Just so i can get some idea how they plan on bringing him back if ever. Or do you get the feeling it won't be anytime soon either?
I haven't spotted any clues. They could bring Steve back with this whole Secret Invasion/Skrull thing, but that would be mighty lame and I really don't see Bru resorting to something like that.
I think Steve will probably be back by issue #50.
Marvel already has a way to bring Steve back that I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet (I think)....
Cloning.
After the Red Skull died of old age due to the effects of the gas that put him into suspended animation wore off, his mind was placed in a cloned body by Arnim Zola that was a duplicate of Steve, even including the Super Soldier formula. Why can't it be done to the REAL Cap?
.....
You may all slap your foreheads and go "Doh! Why didn't I think of that?!" now.
While I'm sure Steve will be back eventually, Bru's story has always seemed more about Bucky, so I'm not really expecting Cap back soon. It would probably undermine most of what Bru has tried to do.
"Real" Steve will be back later this year as part of the invader's story, no? It's said that story will actually affect the main universe.
Quote from: wikipedia...the most reliable of all sources ever created...EVERAt the August 2007 Wizard World Chicago Convention, an image of Captain America surrounded by flames embossed with the word "RETURN" was revealed, created by legendary artist Alex Ross, signifying his return to Marvel. On August 14th, 2007, Marvel has revealed that there will be a new 12 issue maxi-series prelimary entitled "Avengers/Invaders," giving a name to the image revealed at W.W. Chicago. According to Ross, who will be doing covers and design work for the series, it is a series that will return the young WW2 Captain America (Steve Rogers) to modern continuity, along with the other four original Invaders created in the 1940's: Human Torch, Toro, Bucky, and Namor. They will appear in the mainstream Marvel Universe of the present, returning at the height of their powers and popularity, as they were in 1942, to encounter both the New Avengers and Mighty Avengers, plus certain characters who have been in the Avengers in the past. The series will launch in 2008.
Quote from: Previsionary on March 05, 2008, 02:09:53 AM
"Real" Steve will be back later this year as part of the invader's story, no? It's said that story will actually affect the main universe.
I doubt that story will have much if any impact on Bru's Cap. At best young Cap will meet his successor, probably a passing of the torch moment.
Quote from: GhostMachine on March 05, 2008, 01:38:11 AM
I think Steve will probably be back by issue #50.
Marvel already has a way to bring Steve back that I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet (I think)....
Cloning.
After the Red Skull died of old age due to the effects of the gas that put him into suspended animation wore off, his mind was placed in a cloned body by Arnim Zola that was a duplicate of Steve, even including the Super Soldier formula. Why can't it be done to the REAL Cap?
.....
You may all slap your foreheads and go "Doh! Why didn't I think of that?!" now.
[spoiler]if you've read the latest ish, seems like zola's gonna get his hands on the embryo of steve and sharon...[/spoiler]
Cloning? That didn't go so well with Spider-Man. To put it mildly.
Quote from: danhagen on March 05, 2008, 10:22:23 AM
Cloning? That didn't go so well with Spider-Man. To put it mildly.
Depends on how ya look at it, I mean, how many clones does Pete have left? I miss Ben Reilly. :(
IIRC, the clone saga started off well enough, dragged on for tooooo long, and then ended badly. That was during Marvel's "unstable" period as well and people have this undying love for Ben Reily now...but ultimately, clones running around haven't lead to the best of stories in the media in general. Though, I must say, the clone saga in Ultimate spider-man was handled much better.
With a long character history involving Cosmic Cubes, and in a book that's already featured one, is it that hard to think of a way Steve Rogers could be brought back?
I, for one, would like to let the Steve remain dead for a while - say until issue ~70. I like where Bucky's going right now.
I believe I read somewhere that one of the reasons Steve was killed off was the keep him out of Secret Invasion.
I picked up my comics yesterday, and issue #35 was pretty good. Didn't like the cliffhanger and the end, and I don't like where I think it may be going....
Captain America has been a must read book since Brubaker took over as writer. I read in an interview where Brubaker talked about pitching the idea of killing off Captain America to Marvel. When the story was approved, he spent the first two years on the book setting this moment up. Having Bucky take over for Cap has been handled really well. It's quite an engaging read and my personal favorite run on the book since the Waid/Garney days or Gruenwald/Lim or John Byrne or Jack Kirby and Stan Lee. It's a keeper. :thumbup:
Quote from: bearded on March 03, 2008, 02:53:08 AM
where is nomad these days? nomad's going to kick bucky all over the place.
I think Nomad had to return his copy of Lone Wolf and Cub to the video store. :P
Quote from: mrmajic on March 11, 2008, 09:44:24 PM
Quote from: bearded on March 03, 2008, 02:53:08 AM
where is nomad these days? nomad's going to kick bucky all over the place.
I think Nomad had to return his copy of Lone Wolf and Cub to the video store. :P
Hasn't he been needing to do that for a while now?
Cap 36 was out today, and I'll just say that those against the character using a gun are going to be sorely displeased with this issue.
[spoiler]
While he doesn't do anything like knee-capping people, he does basically use his pistol as a potentially lethal weapon. In a fight with the Serpent Society, all armed with guns, Bucky shoots a number of them, torso, police-style shots meant to take a person down quickly.
[/spoiler]
Now, I'm not rabidly against the gun-use, and this certainly isn't an Azrael-esque interpretation of the character, as some have suggested, but I'm not sure that I like it either.
Those sorely displeased will include creator Joe Simon, by the way. Check out the latest Alter Ego on that score.
[spoiler](http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/images/0803/cap365.jpg)[/spoiler]
the page in question
[spoiler]seriously one panel he used the gun, and it was to stop people who were trying to murder a government official. i would understand that if he emptied the mag and splattered them against the wall punisher style, but if this had happened in any cop based comic, i don't think people wouldn't bat an eyelid. in all honestly i've seen worse in many pg13 movies and some children's anime[/spoiler]
just my views if you disagree, thats fine but keep it civial
Well...I think I've made my view perfectly clear about the larger issue here, but I would like to say something about that page. From what I can see, those are both INTENTIONALLY non-fatal, non-permanently damaging shots. I don't think he should be using a gun, especially in a series that doesn't question itself more than this is supposed to be doing (if his gun use was a subject of actual study IN the story, I'd be much more open to it), but if he is going to, that's what I would want to see.
Well, he does also...
[spoiler]
light up Crossbones with a bunch of torso shots.
[/spoiler]
That said, I'm not that against it.
I must say that the spoilers i read here made the scene sound a little more gruesome than what I saw in the panel. I wont respond with my thoughts until I actually read the issue at hand and figure out the situation as I don't want to form any sort of opinion on some one else's word.
Bucky's a good enough shot that he doesn't have to inflict fatal shots to put people down. That said, however, I wouldn't mind it if he intentionally killed Dr. Faustus or the Red Skull if that was the only option.
Okay, I picked up my comics today (Cap #35 and Wonder Woman #18 - was supposed to have FX #1 also, but Diamond didn't send the comics shop any copies, despite them ordering some), and I don't think Bucky shooting the villains was quite as bad as it was made out to be - or didn't, until I saw that he apparently nailed the Eel with a gutshot.
What I'm surprised about is that no one even mentioned Bucky stabbing Crossbones in the leg....
As much as I'm a fan of traditional, square-jawed heroes, I think Brubaker has handled Bucky's gun use very well so far. He treats the role as that of a soldier - he's willing to use a gun to get the job done, but isn't portrayed as any sort of ultra-violent psycho.
It's very much consistent with his role as Bucky in the earlier issues of this run. I'm diggin' the entire storyline.
latest cap is out and I pretty much enjoyed the issue. The gun problem people have seems to alternate between issues as I don't recall their being any gun use at all this issue. Some of the things I addressed earlier were brought up in this issue:
SPOILERS
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A) Bucky using the mantle of Captain America to move on from his past though he still has nightmares
B) Certain characters weren't exactly happy about Tony's choice for the new cap
C) another surprise ending and some of you may have been right about someone being duplicated...or are you?
D) Oh, Bucky is still training with the shield so he's not a pro at it yet.
E) The public doesn't accept him as captain america yet which is nice since it's not forced on us.
Okay, I read it, and I don't get it. What's with the last picture? I know there is *something* on his chest and that should mean *something*... but I couldn't make it out/figure it out. Could someone explain that to me? (Maybe I'm just old... :blink:)
Quote from: Mowgli on April 17, 2008, 04:29:20 PM
Okay, I read it, and I don't get it. What's with the last picture? I know there is *something* on his chest and that should mean *something*... but I couldn't make it out/figure it out. Could someone explain that to me? (Maybe I'm just old... :blink:)
[spoiler]I know what you're referring to, so I'll attempt to explain it. The guy on the table is "Steve" and a "Captain America" but he just happens to also be "The Grand Director"....possibly. If I remember correctly, this "steve" got burned in a fire which would explain the image. Or, it could just be makeup or something. Either way, it'd work for me.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Previsionary on April 18, 2008, 12:35:58 AM
Quote from: Mowgli on April 17, 2008, 04:29:20 PM
Okay, I read it, and I don't get it. What's with the last picture? I know there is *something* on his chest and that should mean *something*... but I couldn't make it out/figure it out. Could someone explain that to me? (Maybe I'm just old... :blink:)
[spoiler]I know what you're referring to, so I'll attempt to explain it. The guy on the table is "Steve" and a "Captain America" but he just happens to also be "The Grand Director"....possibly. If I remember correctly, this "steve" got burned in a fire which would explain the image. Or, it could just be makeup or something. Either way, it'd work for me.[/spoiler]
Going off Previsionary's spoiler....
[spoiler]"The Grand Director" was the 1950's anti-commie Cap, and is how they reconciled there being a Cap and Bucky active in the 1950's. But he later went nutso, and he supposedly died in the same mass suicide explosion that Sharon Carter was supposed to have died in, if I remember right. He's not a clone or anything, just a nut who had plastic surgery to make himself look like Steve Rogers and took on the Rogers identity and the reason he went nuts is because the super soldier formula he (and his Bucky, aka Nomad, now deceased thanks to Winter Soldier, apparently) took was unstable.[/spoiler]
Well, that's a lot to take in. And I thought I knew a thing or two about comics. Thanks for the info guys, it is helpful. :)
Quote from: Mowgli on April 18, 2008, 12:41:21 PM
Well, that's a lot to take in. And I thought I knew a thing or two about comics. Thanks for the info guys, it is helpful. :)
Yeah, and its crappy what they did. I now have a NEW #1 candidate for who I hope Bucky shoots in the head, knocking the Red Skull down to #2.
Latest issue is out and I'll just say...welcome back "Steve Rogers"...Now go away. :P
Also, yay for Bucky continuing to grow more confident in his role and caring what some people think of him.
sorry to announce this but...Jeph Loeb is doing a captain america book:
http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=16770
I want to be optimistic...but this man...as a writer...plz, stop giving him work, Marvel.