THEY ACTUALLY ARE GOING TO CAST WHO I WANTED THEM TO CAST FOR ONCE!
I couldn't help but to cheer outloud for what I heard.
For those of you who don't know, but for a while feature films for both Wonder Woman and The Flash have been brewing for franchises, but nothing has actually come of it, particularly with the Flash. Wonder Woman does have a history and was on track for production thanks to in part to Joss Wheldon who was picked to write and direct a film. Anyway, to make a long story short, after several attempts to hammer down a script, he was finally unable and he and Warner Bros. decided to go separate ways. So back to square one, Warner Bro. did buy a draft to keep it out of circulation, but off the heels of not just the success of Batman Begins, but the resurrection of Superman and Whedon's attempt, recently Warner Bro. has decided to fast-track a big screen production of the Justice League of America. And no, not with Fire, Ice, Atom and a retarted GL, but the big players, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter. With this movie, they were hoping to spinoff franchises for the Flash and Wonder Woman. Now, because of this movie and the involvement of Christian Bale and Brandon Routh in their own DC franchises, they have declined participation and the roles of Superman and Batman will be recast.
But they recently announced that they are close to signing one person who I knew would be good for the role:
http://www.mania.com/56100.html
And what's more? They've talked about a possible plot to the film:
http://movieblog.ugo.com/index.php/movieblog/more/bhc_exclusive_spoiler_details_on_the_jla_movies_storyline/
Although, I still have my reservations for a JLA movie of this magnatude, I'm curious to see what they do.
Sounds almost like they may be using the "Tower of Bable" storyline (I always liked that one)
I will keep my fingers crossed on this one. Hollywood's screwed up before, but sometimes something good happens.
However its just plain stupid not to use the current Superman and Batman ( Routh and Bale) IMO. Unless they can find someone significantly better because of their recent identification with the roles.
Quote from: steamteck on September 27, 2007, 01:16:59 PM
However its just plain stupid not to use the current Superman and Batman ( Routh and Bale) IMO. Unless they can find someone significantly better because of their recent identification with the roles.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on September 27, 2007, 12:00:13 PM
...the big players, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter. With this movie, they were hoping to spinoff franchises for the Flash and Wonder Woman. Now, because of this movie and the involvement of Christian Bale and Brandon Routh in their own DC franchises, they have declined participation and the roles of Superman and Batman will be recast.
Kinda sounds like Brandon & Bale turned down appearing in the Justice League movie. Perhaps a bad move on their part or ill tidings for the film and the direction it may take. Also, depending on how they portray Batman & Superman in the movie the adaptations could be very different than the ones in their own films making them seem off in a JLA movie.
Not to mention the financial and professional aspects of going from leading man to ensemble member.
That's a decent- sounding storyline, if it does turn out to be the real one. Kinda like Brother Eye crossed with the "Tower of Bable" story arc (as GG said above). It may have some kind of hope for being decent.
it's gonna be ridiculous.
[spoiler]c'mon Redeye??? let's just call it the "Batman's an arse device" congrats to Bale for not going along with this show. from previous reports i read. it seemed as though Nolan and Bale wanted to finish their trilogy before the JLA movie was made, but Routh was kind of indifferent. [/spoiler]
I'm rather tempted to agree with DM and IPS. I liked the Tower of Babel story over all, but I didn't particularly care for the whole 'Batman is a paranoid lunatic' part of it. However, that being said, I think that is a TERRIBLE story to BEGIN the Justice League with. It would be a much better idea to go with the White Martian invasion, a-la JLU, or any number of other stories. If that is the storyline they are following, I can't say I blame Bale for not getting on board.
Quote from: BentonGrey on September 27, 2007, 03:41:02 PM
However, that being said, I think that is a TERRIBLE story to BEGIN the Justice League with.
Now THAT I can agree with. I'm gonna try to be optimistic, though. I love the Justice League too much to give up on the movie this early. I'm going to wait until I see a trailer before I... admit this movie's a bad idea.
I don't think that's a bad story. Batman doesn't have to be paranoid to do this, just practical. I mean ow many times have superheroes been possessed or gone rogue? All the time.
That being said, you guys are right, it isn't a good story to begin a movie franchise reaching people who may not know the characters at all.
just a quick note on Bale, the reason he is not doing the JLA movie comes down to a few simple things:
A) He is committed to doing three Bat film for WB at this point. Bale's commitment to those films also is a commitment to Christopher Nolan and his vision for those three Bat movies. Bale has basically implied that he might be willing to do it were they to wait till after the third Bat film with Nolan.
b) He wasn't impressed with the script that was pitched to him or what he saw of the script.
My personal opinion is that WB needs to do movies with at least the "Big 3" first and get them out there. I would go as far as to say films with Green Lantern and Flash as well. That way, you have them as established characters (for film purposes) and can introduce a few additional then get into the actual plot of the film. Otherwise, you spend the first 20 - 30 minutes of the movie establishing characters at the very least.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on September 27, 2007, 03:55:12 PM
I don't think that's a bad story. Batman doesn't have to be paranoid to do this, just practical. I mean ow many times have superheroes been possessed or gone rogue? All the time.
The problem is, with this being the beginning of a new franchise (presumably), with the casual viewing public being introduced to three or so heroes for the very first time, there will be no
opportunity for the good guys to get possessed or go bad. This plot will kind of come out of left field. I agree that a world-threatening event would be the best place to start. Brainiac or some such would be a better place to start.
There are some ideas that are just too big for a film.
120 minutes requires you to keep the focus narrow and scale big, or scale small and focus more broad.
This type of ensemble comic book movie is huge in both scale and focus.
Even the X-Men films while big ensemble comic book movies, were really character films focused on one or two characters (ala wolverine/magneto) and the BIG stuff was really secondary. It had the advantage of having a bunch of characters that to the general public are nobodies, so you could shortchange them, or relegate them the fringes and nobody really was bothered (aside from comic fans).
Justice league is basically all the big guns of general comic book pop culture vying for screen time.
Its too big for a character film. Unless you focus on just one or two of the characters, but the Batman Superman films already do that for their respective characters, and what average moviegoer is gonna be that interested in a justice league movie that shortchanges Batman or Superman to showcase wonder woman or the flash? Thats like going to see an Indiana Jones Movie and pushing him to the side to focus the film on Markus Brody.
Its like Mr. Hamrick said. They need to establish these characters outside of a justice league movie.
I just don't think its gonna work.
I tend to agree that a plot hinging on one of the seven not trusting the others has some big disadvantages for the first movie in a likely trilogy. It seems like the better progression is to establish the reasons that these disparate guys can work together in the first film, maybe with a hint that not all is sweetness and light behind the scenes. Then add a fly to the ointment like a member keeping secret data on IDs and weaknesses on his peers because he thinks they may go rogue in a second or third film. Having all that complicating baggage in the first film makes it all the harder for the remainder of the series.
As far as speculation goes, I have to wonder if the Justice League producers really wanted to commit to paying the salaries for Bale (and Routh, I guess) for a trilogy of JL films, especially since that those guys may not really want to do a total of six films as the same character. Maybe the approach is to get new people for the roles and hope that they might continue the Batman and Superman franchises after this trilogy is done, by which time the Bale Batman and Routh Superman trilogies will be finished.
Whatever the reasons, I will miss Bale as Batman. I think he was excellent. Of course, in an ensemble piece like this, it may be that his talent for character studies wouldn't really shine through anyway. Regarding Routh not doing Superman - whatever. He was okay in Superman Returns, but I can't see where he adds anything to the role that a hundred other actors couldn't do just as well.
Jessica Biel as Wonder Woman? I like her (even aside from her callipygian value) and I think she can do action films, which I think is a real necessity for these roles. I also like Ryan Reynolds, though I worry that, though he has the requisite smart alec quality (I suspect half the population thinks he is Dane Cook anyway :P), the Flash has sort of an innocence about him that I haven't seen in Reynolds' other work.
I am really curious who they cast for Stewart and Jonzz. Either of those could be a breakout role for someone.
I thought this was supposed to be done in some sort of rotoscoped animation?
<confused>
Thanks Hamrick for the clarification. Yeah, Bale and Nolan weren't entirely too disinterested, they just thought the timing(and I agree) is bad and they wanted to wait until they are done with their third film. Routh wasn't totally against it. In fact, he was interested(come on, he's a former unknown getting the role of Superman. Like Jackman with Wolverine, he's having fun and the role made him). Unfortunately, contractually he would probably not be able to participate.
However, there are a couple of things to remember. First of all, with the (slight- ok, full) exception of Fantastic Four: ROTSS, most of these films has stayed away from apace/alien sci-fi themes, despite being dependent on them, like with spider-man's symbiote and Dark Phoenix. It's because of that and the fact they want to go with something that can at least seem plausable. Lex Luthor, plausable. Doomsday, not plausable. Big spooky cloud, plausable. Galactus, not plausable. Split personality, plausable. Inter-galactic alien, not plausable. I would assume in this case, big brother is plausable and Apokalipian God is not plausable.
Secondly, we should keep in mind the fact that they are planning to spin franchises with Wonder Woman and the Flash from this film. And because Superman and Batman already have strong franchises, you can bet that when they do focus on a particular character it won't be Superman or Batman. If anything, I wouldn't doubt they are more than plot devices. They may be a role, but the film, I'm willing to bet, will focus on Wonder Woman and the Flash will be big as well. You know kind of like in a Justice League episode, two or three characters will be featured, but the others are there, but the two or three carry the story.
And don't worry, the Dark Knight is still being released as well as a likely third.
I don't know Shogunn, movies like Independence Day, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Starship Troopers, and War of the World were all successful movies that hinged on an alien invasion. I think you could EASILY do something big like that in a JLA movie, provided you built up to it properly. In fact, I think it's probably one of the better ways to approach it. Then, we get to see the various characters individually, as they begin to unravel the conspiracy, finally banding together to rescue MM (or SOMETHING) and then you have your big, epic fight at the end.
What is with the whole SciFi element & space stuff being so hard to swallow in these movies anymore? It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Like BentonGrey said several blockbusters have used alien invasions or alien presences and have not had masses of people storming out going "Oh I can't possibly buy that I am out of here!"
The irony is that the plot points in these movies that have been so problematic are usually a direct result of the changes and playing to the audience like they are preschoolers... retarded... brain damaged... amnesiac preschoolers on heavy medication.
I can handle the leap of logic & suspension of disbelief of "it is an alien/tech from the stars" a lot easier than whatever random terrestrial origin Hollywood comes up with. It also often damages the story in that a lot of these things mystique comes from their otherwordly almost magical qualities. When you change them into "Oh it IS just a weather balloon haha!" a lot of them lose that quality becoming rather mundane.
I gotta concur you really need something big going down for a movie of JLA caliber. Otherwise you kinda sit there thinking... did they really need Superman & Green Lantern tagging along to stop that villain or interrupt a bank robbery?
It would be kinda nice to get a whole new story rather then watch them butcher something already out there. Chances are it might very well be unrecognizable before they are done anyways, why not do something new.
here's my take on the whole sci-fi plot thing:
Bringing all these heroes together to fight an alien invasion is perfectly plausible and would be a great plot for a movie. Rather that alien invasion was from Apoklypse (or however its spelled) and led by Darkseid, or rather it was Starro The Conqueror. In fact, I think it would be ideal . . .
IF
IF the big three at least had established franchises.
However, with the current depiction of Batman in the Nolan films, it would be a stretch perhaps to include Batman in that type of battle without some sort of explanation as to why he is getting involved. There is nothing in the Nolan established universe that suggests anything "hero universe wise" outside Gotham. NOW HAVING SAID THAT: It would be perfect to do from the direction of "The Smallville Universe" where the heroes were introduced in the course of a season and teamed up with Clark later on.
As for the casting, I've no problem with Biel playing Wonder Woman and Reynolds as The Flash . . . AS LONG AS THEY WERE SCREEN TESTED. I'm sorry, I'm of the personal opinion that regardless of who the actor is that he or she should audition or screen test for the role depending on the circumstances. Especially when the character is something like a comic character or beloved literary figure. I'm not talking a cold audition, I'm talking the actor being sent the sides and then filmed acting as the character in a scene (minus all the things like a set). It's not always how it works but I can dream, right?
Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on September 27, 2007, 11:44:35 PM
What is with the whole SciFi element & space stuff being so hard to swallow in these movies anymore? It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Like BentonGrey said several blockbusters have used alien invasions or alien presences and have not had masses of people storming out going "Oh I can't possibly buy that I am out of here!"
I think the reticence of filmmakers to include "alien threats" and whatnot into their superhero films is because it ratchets up the need for suspension of disbelief from the audience. Alien invasion films like "War of the Worlds" or "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" worked because the audience only had to deal with that one element of the fantastic (the idea that aliens exist and that they want to conquer Earth). Throwing in aliens (or supernatural/horror-type threats, or whatever) alongside superpowered beings flying around in long underwear might be too much for a viewer who isn't originally a comic book fan to take seriously (and by seriously, I mean "seriously to the extent that their juxtaposition doesn't become too much of a distraction from the main narrative").
That's why you don't see too much overt mixing of genres in genre fiction and film (or at least you don't see too much of it done well). Each genre carries its own set of preconceptions and baggage, and too many disparate elements can come in to muddy up the viewer's/reader's expectations (don't get me wrong, most readers and viewers like surprises, but only if they follow some sort of logic based on what they perceive to be "the rules" of the genre).
I mean, making a good superhero movie by itself is already a considerable task, making a good superhero movie that also doubles as a decent alien invasion movie would be a much taller order. Also, a large part of the director's job is to predict how the audience might react to certain on-screen elements... it's already hard enough to gauge mainstream audience reaction to superheroes without throwing them a curveball in the form of White Martians.
Quote from: bredon7777 on September 27, 2007, 09:54:16 PM
I thought this was supposed to be done in some sort of rotoscoped animation?
<confused>
That was the original concept because it would allow them to use the voice actors they wanted and be less limited by the special effects budget of a live action movie. HOWEVER the upcoming actors guild strike in 2009 is forcing them to push ahead many projects and revamp others because they rather have the majority of acting work in the can before that event happens. They rather have dozens of movies in SFX post-production while the majority of Hollywood is holding it's breath for the resolution of those talks. I would wonder why wouldn't low budget non-Hollywood B-Films makers use that time to push out their movies to big movie chains when they are usually stuck to small local theaters and that one single multiplex room reserved for kiddie flicks and documentaries.
They want to have Justice League in reserve for 2009 as their big budget live action superhero peice for the year and you will see lots of news blurbs about it over the next year as they put casting and filming on the fast track.
- CrimsonQuill
Quote from: GrizzlyBearTalon on September 27, 2007, 01:47:32 PM
[
Kinda sounds like Brandon & Bale turned down appearing in the Justice League movie. Perhaps a bad move on their part or ill tidings for the film and the direction it may take. Also, depending on how they portray Batman & Superman in the movie the adaptations could be very different than the ones in their own films making them seem off in a JLA movie.
In Bales's case you're right. Routh they told him his Movies were on indefinite hold until after Justice League last I heard. I have wanted a JLA movie for years if they do a "tower of Babel" I will be soooo annoyed. If I was as stupid about concepts on my job as studios , I would be fired so fast!
The movie sounds possible and for Batmans part in it. Couldn't it be his use of his detective work that finds out about the aliens? When he figures out that it might be a possible invasion so he gets in touch the the rest of the JLA. Seeing how he's not as super as the rest of them, he stays up in the Watch Tower satilite and corrinates the JLA attacks.
An alien villain or invasion is a harder sell in Spider-man or X-men, because there's nothing inherently space-related for either of those characters. That isn't true of Superman, and I would argue that any movie that features him prominently can more easily get away with other aliens coming to earth (in the eyes of the general public) because the movie already has one alien, him. Superman is inherently tied to space travel & life on other planets (and aliens having super-powers), so it's a better fit, and easier for a non-comic reading public to buy into.
Not mention Green Lantern - all those LBMs running around (little blue men). Unless they're going to give him the golden age/Alan Scott origin.
You make a good point Zulu but like others have mentioned is the Suspension of disbelief really so massive strained by an alien invasion when major characters in the film already have alien backgrounds? After all like the last few posts brought out, Superman is an alien and many of these DC characters are space travelers and planet hoppers already. For them I don't think it would be nearly as much of a strain. However as Talavar said doing this for Spider-Man or X-men in film would be a much big stretch, you could get away with one alien or something appearing but not a whole sci fi esque invasion.
I think it would work especially easily in a JLA movie if they use Martian Manhunter or work him into the plot early on somehow. You already have two aliens on the team outright and if the Green Lantern is there you have a character who got his powers from aliens.
Still I think the big issue is what Zulu mentioned, pulling off a good superhero movie & an alien invasion. You would need elements of how the invaders have really messed with Earth to make them seem ominous and like a real threat. You'd also need to pull of reactions of the man on the street as they attack various places as well. This means a director would need to be capable of handling not only character driven interactions (to make the league members feel real & lifelike not flat and 1 dimensional), action sequences, war scenes & set up (the invasion itself after all), and large scale panic & crow scenes with many extras as well. Still, any threat that should require the JLA's attention would need to be large enough to cause that kind of a reaction anyways.
One of my big questions is... will this be a full on origin movie like in Spider-Man & Fantastic Four? Or will the characters & league already be established? Will it open with a quick flashback then come into modern times filling in further details later on instead of devoting the movie to it ala the first Blade movie or use some other way of doing it?
I still contend the whole thing is way too big for a single movie. All these discussion about alien invasions and character origins are just emphasizing the point (to me anyway).
Maybe if it were a HBO miniseries....
QuoteThanks Hamrick for the clarification. Yeah, Bale and Nolan weren't entirely too disinterested, they just thought the timing(and I agree) is bad and they wanted to wait until they are done with their third film. Routh wasn't totally against it. In fact, he was interested(come on, he's a former unknown getting the role of Superman. Like Jackman with Wolverine, he's having fun and the role made him). Unfortunately, contractually he would probably not be able to participate.
I'd like to clear up a misconception here. Both Bale and Routh have signed 3-movie contracts, and an optional ensemble film is already built into the contracts as being the studio's option to do instead of a starring role film. So if the actors are being allowed to refuse, then it's because the studio is giving them the option. They have their own reasons for wanting to use other actors. Their contracts oblige them to do the movie if the studio actually insists.
More on Routh. He just said in an interview he would enjoy putting on the cape for Justice League and is interested but WB has still mum on it to him. Their take seems to be JLA is in a different world than the individual franchises so different actors are OK. Bale on the other hand did not like the script ( Makes you wonder how Batman is portrayed)
And so far the varous DC movies seem to exist completely independantly from one another. Marvel movies at least reference one another in passing (I'm pretty sure Spider-man has alluded to Dr. Strange and Hulk), but they too are pretty isolated. Working Batman and Superman into an integrated universe might not be too hard, but I think it would be tough to go from Batman to JL world with its implication of a large and coherent enough hero and villain scene to justify forming the JL in the first place.
Quote from: Talavar on September 28, 2007, 08:04:51 AMSuperman is inherently tied to space travel & life on other planets (and aliens having super-powers), so it's a better fit, and easier for a non-comic reading public to buy into.
That's true enough (and we did have Zod and friends back in
Superman II). But in a movie that already has Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and possibly Martian Manhunter vying for screentime (with some type of origin subplots for the latter four), there's probably not enough time to properly set up the White Martian invaders as a credible plot element.
As always, I'll judge the film when I see it, but I can't help but go off thinking about the ways it could be done wrong.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on September 28, 2007, 10:20:55 AM
QuoteThanks Hamrick for the clarification. Yeah, Bale and Nolan weren't entirely too disinterested, they just thought the timing(and I agree) is bad and they wanted to wait until they are done with their third film. Routh wasn't totally against it. In fact, he was interested(come on, he's a former unknown getting the role of Superman. Like Jackman with Wolverine, he's having fun and the role made him). Unfortunately, contractually he would probably not be able to participate.
I'd like to clear up a misconception here. Both Bale and Routh have signed 3-movie contracts, and an optional ensemble film is already built into the contracts as being the studio's option to do instead of a starring role film. So if the actors are being allowed to refuse, then it's because the studio is giving them the option. They have their own reasons for wanting to use other actors. Their contracts oblige them to do the movie if the studio actually insists.
I'd like to counter that assumption. While both of them have been signed for "3 picture deals", without seeing the exact wording of the contracts, then its impossible to know rather that was "Three Batman or Superman films" or playing said characters in three films. I've had to deal with contracts recently with regards to a project that I am involved with and the language can be rather vague and a bit of a gray area at times. However, with a contract that is between two distinct parties like that, I suspect that there was some very specific language as to what Bale and Routh signed on for. For that matter, I doubt the two of them probably signed the same sort of deal, particularly Bale. The bottom line is without seeing that contract then we can only go on what has been reported and we do not know for sure if that "ensemble film" option was in place or not.
how is it so hard to set up a white martian invasion storyline? they could modify it from the comics easily.
heres what I'd do:
open with Superman taking out some mechanicial behemoth thing (maybe a giant spider) he does it and is getting honored in some sort of way... his super hearing picks up a bank robbery, or something, he leaves the celebration to go stop it, only to see that the heist has been foiled already, in super-fast time. enter the flash.
supey and flash can do some banter and have some high-speed hijinxs... maybe simultaing a race around the world type thing.
as they're racing, across the atlantic or something, flash gets distracted by a hot girl sunbathing or something... y'know slows momentum and falls into the water. turns out the girl is wonderwoman... maybe she starts running to catch up to them or something... they take a breather. supes introducesd diana, and we get a whole origin story from her through a flashback or something. she asks about Flash. he just has a witty quip about his origin.
yadda yadda yadda. batman calls out and interrupts the three. says he found something odd. turns out it's Jonn Jonnz. he's all like psychic backlashy and stuff from coming to earth, so when the heroes confront him, he starts putting up a fight. and since the heroes are unprepared, and well manhunter's pretty beast its a good fight until diana can rope him up. then we get the MM origin and he explains that all the green martians were killed by the white or something, and now the white martians are coming to earth.
insert some plot and intrigue here.
then we've got batman, superman, flash, WW and MM. they'll be facing off against a horde of white martians... things start looking bleak (maybe get luth0r involved to, just so he can use a line like "Well, I for one, welcome our new alien overlords.")
yeah so things are looking pretty dark for our heroes, when,m whats this, a green light from space shows up and yeah turns the tide. Enter green lantern, short backstory there, including how he's an intergalactic cop, and these white martian dudes are bad guys.
Ta-Da! justice league.
you gotta remember, we're not going to be getting a christopher nolan type story with this movie. or even a bad rendition of watchmen. it's going to have to be more akin to Fantastic Four then any of the X-men movies too. a nice mix of humour, and action
If they're not going to use Routh, wouldn't it be great if they got Tom Wellig to do it? By the time JLA is out, Smallville will be done and I'm hoping the very last shot of that series is Tom sporting the S and flying out of the fortress as Reeve did in Superman 1.
I wonder if this is going to be an "Origin of the JLA" movie or one where the team is presumed to already be established? I think I prefer the latter, though I can see the former providing a more convenient backdrop for character origins.
BTW, if I were guessing (and I have no idea), I would think the chances of getting Routh to do Superman are greater than those of getting Bale to do Batman. Bale is a hot property right now (and deservedly so, IMO), so he may be looking to move on to other projects by the time this gets going. I don't know if Routh will have made a name for himself by then.
Biel has turned down the wonder woman role..
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/34223
QuoteThe bottom line is without seeing that contract then we can only go on what has been reported and we do not know for sure if that "ensemble film" option was in place or not.
]
Indeed, what I said earlier has been reported, but professional entertainment news reporters. Both contracts specific three films in the Batman/Superman franchises, with an option to make one of them an ensemble film.
I was reading a review of the
Fantastic Four 2: Rise of the Silver Surfer DVD when I read an interesting comment posted by none other than Peter David, where he pretty much says the same thing that I was saying in my previous post regarding the notion of having aliens show up in a superhero film (emphasis in bold my own):
Quote from: Peter DavidI'm sorry, but I think it's absurd to dwell extensively on comparisons between a movie and the comic story on which it was based. Especially since--let's face it--if "The Galactus Trilogy" was seeing print for the very first time today, readers would be shredding it. A silver guy on a SURFBOARD? How stupid is that? The Cosmic Nullifier would be dubbed "the Cosmic Deus Ex Machina." Taking a movie that one experiences as an adult and stacking it against a comic book story that one experienced through the far more credulous eyes of a ten year old...it's ridiculous.
The Watcher? Uh uh. When you're dealing with suspension of disbelief in a film, you want to introduce one outlandish plot device and one only. The Surfer, and the being he represented, was the plot device. On top of that, you're going to layer a gigantic bald alien voyeur? Forget it. It's too much for an uninitiated audience. You simply can't tailor a script to the sensibilities of the hard core comics fans if you're going to leave the vast majority of the audience behind.
I had no problem with the concept of leaving Galactus as mostly a creature left to the viewer's imagination, especially since the sight of a giant purple and blue guy with giant metal antlers striding around New York might have provoked laughter. Personally, I thought the film was a lot of fun, and a vast improvement over the first one.
PAD
Introducing the Silver Surfer and Galactus in
FF2 worked because they were the only outlandish plot device (as the Fantastic Four and Dr. Doom were already introduced in the first film, and thus were already part of the audience's "normal" background information). In a Justice League movie, even if you take the position that the recent Batman and Superman films serve as pseudo-sequels, there still too many disparate outlandish plot elements to reconcile into a 2-hour film palatable to the uninitiated viewer, even without the introduction of a White Martian or Starro invasion.
One major problem (in terms of writing a story suitable for film) is that the Justice League members all have different origins that rely on similarly outrageous premises, unlike films like
Fantastic Four or
X-Men, where the characters all basically derive their powers from one source. With the FF, you only have to show the accident that gave them all their powers, and with the X-Men, the writer only needs to introduce the idea and concept of mutation and mutant superpowers to give the audience enough background information to be able to invest in the characters. With the Justice League, even taking away Superman and Batman, you'd have to introduce (and make plausible within the context of the film) an island nation populated only by warrior-females (Wonder Woman's origin), an intergalactic police force that just so happens to choose a human to work for them (Green Lantern), and an extradimensional "Speed Force" that can be tapped into to provide superhuman speed (Flash's origin). That's just way too much character set-up for a single film. Of course, a writer can just go in there and do a quick, throwaway set-up for each character, but then you'll just end up with something like the live-action
Street Fighter movie, where every other line contains a painful amount of exposition. It's this same reason that I think doing a good Avengers movie will be a lot harder than doing a decent FF or X-Men movie.
Bah
Ok, let's take the "Hollywood Writer" method of these characters' origins.
If they intend to spin off Flash and Wonder Woman movies from this, the origins in JLA will be brief and skim.
Flash: Struck by lightning
Wonder Woman: Ambassador Amazon from a Greek Island
Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern are trickier.
Green Lantern: Found an alien ring in a box of Cracker Jack
Jo'nn Jonzz: Insane mutant that thinks he's from Mars.
They are brought together by Batman to fight...a giant metal spider. Or something else equally as lame. Terrorists, then. why not? This film will be as much about getting together and finding trust than any other threat they may face, perhaps more.
Even though Superman has never gone out of his way to actually meet these other heroes before now, Batman has complete dossiers on all of them, including aliases and weaknesses.
They call him paranoid, etc, but he is justified when one of them acts TOTALLY out of character and thye need that info to stop him/her.
Once the threat is over, and he gets to know them as people, he trusts them and they decide to make a team.
Ho hum.
So is the gist of this that the Mainstream audience is too Unadaptable and stupid to accept a decent Justice League movie and it needs to be simplified and mundaned down to an unacceptable level? Personally I think that's nonsense that smacks of Hollywood's superiority complex coupled with the active ( yes, active not passive) stupidity of its higher ups. Look at the idiocy at Warner Brothers anyway
Quote from: steamteck on October 08, 2007, 07:37:58 PM
So is the gist of this that the Mainstream audience is too Unadaptable and stupid to accept a decent Justice League movie and it needs to be simplified and mundaned down to an unacceptable level?
Not really, at least from my perspective.
The point is that there are elements in certain long-running serialized stories (particularly one with as extensive a background as the JLA) that make it particularly difficult to adapt into a 2-hour feature film of reasonable quality. The problem isn't that non-comics reading audiences won't respond favourably to a well-done ensemble superhero movie that is reasonably faithful to the source material (because they will, if the first two X-Men films are any indication), the problem is that condensing the JLA source material into a suitable feature-length script and plot is a pretty tall order given the characters' individuated origins.
The same type of thing happens with the Star Trek movies. There is such an extensive backstory, implicit continuity, and history with the characters and their universe that it's virtually impossible to give audiences unfamiliar with the TV shows a fair approximation of their depth and characterization. To somebody who has never seen the Star Trek TV show, Mr. Spock is just guy with funky ears and a bad haircut and the screenwriter will be battling uphill all throughout the movie trying to make the uninitiated viewer feel even a fraction of the emotional investment a fan of the Star Trek TV show has in the character of Mr. Spock.
By that same token, Green Lantern is just a guy in two-toned long johns and a mask until the writer gives the naive viewer a few good reasons to care. The most relaible way the the writer can make the uninitiated viewer care about the character is if they actually spend a significant amount of screen-time on characterization, and in an ensemble JLA movie that has at least 3 or 4 major leads and at least that number again in significant supporting characters (all whose powers originate in unique contexts), that's a lot of time to spend on what Freytag would call the exposition.
The X-Men and Justice League comparison really doesn't hold much water first off. The reason being that most of The JLA was meant to be a gathering of the "Big Guns" of the DCU plus Martian Manhunter and Hawkgirl. It would more the equivalent of trying to get a decent Avengers movie not an X-men movie. The X-Men were always designed to be a team and, while some of that has been upstaged by the popularity of a certain admantium clawed Canadian, they have always been a team. In movie terms, they are an ensemble. Not saying your wrong with the rest of the analysis, Zuludelta. In fact, you're spot on.
Doing a JLA movie with the aforementioned "big guns" plus Martian Manhunter and Hawkgirl would never work quite as well as someone is going to get short changed. Usually its going to be the "fan-boy" who will be screaming bloody murder about how their favorite character wasn't given enough screen time or wasn't 100% accurate. The latter will happen with ANY comic adaptation.
Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, and Batman are the "big five" in the DCU and all have extensive backstories. We all know that here. I would dare say that all of us would say give each of them their own film over putting them all in one film. Before anyone goes and cites the series, it is a SERIES and had multiple episodes. There is no guarantee of a proposed JLA movie being a franchise. Given the WB's recent statements, I wouldn't hold my breathe for much character development in certain characters anyway.
So no Steamteck, that is not the gist at all. It's not that the mainstream audience is too unadaptable and stupid. It's that there is too much material on the individual characters to avoid having to simplify it down. Otherwise, you're going to have a 3 hours or so origin story before you even start to bring the characters together. As for what you term as "an unacceptable level" vs. an "acceptable level" as far as having to fit 60+ years of back story for Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman not to mention Green Lantern, Flash, Hawkgirl, and Martian Manhunter (the last two probably has the least amount of the bunch to fit) in roughly 40 pages of a script. On and before you ask, 40 pages of a script is roughly 40 minutes of film time. The next 60-70 pages would be the action of the movie, most likely. With the last 30-35 pages being the climax and resolution. That would put the movie at the two hour mark right there. Yes, you could make a three hour movie. The average film though is about two hours presently. Many studios will tell you that the average should be about 1 hour and 45 minutes. Now, having established that, how exactly do you propose putting backstory for seven major DCU characters in to that little of space without simplifying it to some degree. And remember, we only got a handful of Xmen backstories in the Xmen movies. We didn't even get complete backstories on most of the ones we got.
Quote from: zuludelta on October 09, 2007, 06:03:56 AM
Quote from: steamteck on October 08, 2007, 07:37:58 PM
So is the gist of this that the Mainstream audience is too Unadaptable and stupid to accept a decent Justice League movie and it needs to be simplified and mundaned down to an unacceptable level?
The point is that there are elements in certain long-running serialized stories (particularly one with as extensive a background as the JLA) that make it particularly difficult to adapt into a 2-hour feature film of reasonable quality. The problem isn't that non-comics reading audiences won't respond favourably to a well-done ensemble superhero movie that is reasonably faithful to the source material (because they will, if the first two X-Men films are any indication), the problem is that condensing the JLA source material into a suitable feature-length script and plot is a pretty tall order given the characters' individuated origins.
My wish for the plot of a JLA movie is:
Lex Luthor hires Professor Ivo to find a way to de-power Superman. The initial attempts prove inadequate and attract the attention of Batman and a certain shapeshifting green guy. Ivo steps it up, and a Bizarro clone or two is born, along with the prototype for "Amazo". This would be the nano-tech version from Justice League the animated series.
Perhaps there are cameos from Ra's Al Ghul, a terrorist warlord who spies on Batman's every move, and Barbara Minerva, an archeologist who specializes in Ancient magical artifacts. They are business partners of Lex's and lend their expertise to his nefarious scheme.
Then Amazo is unleashed, and nearly kills Superman, Batman and Jonn with their own powers, along with some extra powers that nobody has seen Superman use before, like green energy constructs and reflective arm shields. When all hope seems lost, enter Green Lantern, Flash and Wonder Woman, who were summoned telepathically by Jonn.
The League has a titanic battle with the andriod. It demolishes Washington DC. Lex Luthor has a change of heart and gives Batman kryptonite, which Wonder Woman and Flash use to destroy Amazo (who looks like Superman by the way.)
Lex escapes before the League can capture him.
I think zuludelta and Mr. Hamrick have nailed the major hurdles a JLA movie will have to overcome. And, I think you guys even agree on the X-Men, since zuludelta was only using them as an example of audiences accepting comic book-based ensemble movies. He pointed out earlier the difference between and X-Men or F4 teams where there is only one origin story to tell and a JLA or Avengers team where there are several.
As one of the nutty comic book fans who worries about these sorts of movies, my issue isn't that they aren't 100% true to the comics or that my fav'rit doesn't get enough screen time. After all, I thought Spider-Man was very good and they changed aspects of the comic version. The concern I have is that they fail to capture the feel of the character. For example, it was creepy to see Superman using his powers to stalk Lois and break up the stable home she and Richard had created for Jason. For me, things like that were worse than other big plot holes in the movie. If they can capture the feel for the big seven in a JLA film, then I won't be as concerned about whether they got every part of the origin stories right or if Hawkgirl doesn't get enough screen time.
As to the background, I then still maintain the cartoon audience must be at least more savy because the Timm Justice league Beginning was a pretty good story and just an hour and a half. Back ground on most characters was minimal and they just told a good story. You don't have to find everything huge for intros IMO, Just a micro introduction is really all you need for each. Non braindead people will understand most things I'd expect or prove my generally low feelings about average intelligence true. ( he's an interstellar cop, he's a Martian, She's a visiting alien ) Tons of movies introduce tons of characters and give them a little background quickly , these techniques don't cease to exist just because they're strange. A good team can make it work. Weather it will be great is less likely unfortunately.
Quote from: steamteck on October 10, 2007, 04:09:57 PM
As to the background, I then still maintain the cartoon audience must be at least more savy because the Timm Justice league Beginning was a pretty good story and just an hour and a half. Back ground on most characters was minimal and they just told a good story. You don't have to find everything huge for intros IMO, Just a micro introduction is really all you need for each. Non braindead people will understand most things I'd expect or prove my generally low feelings about average intelligence true. ( he's an interstellar cop, he's a Martian, She's a visiting alien ) Tons of movies introduce tons of characters and give them a little background quickly , these techniques don't cease to exist just because they're strange. A good team can make it work. Weather it will be great is less likely unfortunately.
Except that first episode of JL is one of the weakest of the series, GL, Flash, Hawkgirl and Wonder Woman are virtual ciphers to those without prior knowledge of the characters, Batman & Superman rely on being established by the individual series of each, and the abilities & personalities of all of the characters are short-changed in the conflict with the White Martians/Imperium. Only J'onn of the newly introduced characters is given any real character development, because the plot hinges on him. The cartoon manages to pull it off, but it not particularly well, and it was definitely up hill for the series from that opening episode.
Quote from: Talavar on October 10, 2007, 08:24:14 PM
[
Except that first episode of JL is one of the weakest of the series, GL, Flash, Hawkgirl and Wonder Woman are virtual ciphers to those without prior knowledge of the characters, Batman & Superman rely on being established by the individual series of each, and the abilities & personalities of all of the characters are short-changed in the conflict with the White Martians/Imperium. Only J'onn of the newly introduced characters is given any real character development, because the plot hinges on him. The cartoon manages to pull it off, but it not particularly well, and it was definitely up hill for the series from that opening episode.
Bah! It may be one of the weakest of the series but if a live action version were that good everyone would be Raving. 10,000 times a better plot idea for a start than Tower of Babel. Cyphers, maybe but They still had plenty of personality and thats more than you get in lots of "good" live action movies. My wife just doesn't watch cartoons and the characters intrigued her enough to sit down and watch. It wouldn't be hard to add a 5-10 minute little intro for each to get people up to speed as the character comes on the scene. Any one who doesn't know basically who Superman and Batman are won't get out of their bomb shelter to see a movie and Wonder Woman is pretty close. You just need the basics. If the movie fails it will be because WB screwed it up not because it was impossible IMO.
no one is saying that is is completely impossible, Steamteck. I am saying that based on the standards you seem to be placing on it that it's pretty close to impossible.
I'm not sure what standards I was placing on it. I said that Tower of Babel was a stupid first story but that's about it. Personally I've liked most the Superhero movies that have come out recently. Only the Hulk has majorly disappointed me. I even liked Daredevil. We are apparently speaking different languages. I heard everyone saying there were massive problems to a JLA movies and decades of character history could not be caught up with. All I was saying is the audience could get the characters with minimal explanation and introduction without being mind boggled. I'm sure ti won't be up to Timm standards but still has potential. Superman/ Doomsday has proven to me even a sucky comic can make a good movie. I think problems that really aren't problems were being cited. That's all I meant. Sorry if I was misunderstood.
Possible cast:
Superman: Scott Porter
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2187603/
The Flash: Adam Brody
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0111013/
Green Lantern: Common
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0996669/
Batman: Armie Hammer
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2309517/
I got this info from http://www.batmanytb.com/news.php
Looks like it may be cancelled. (http://www.iesb.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4059&Itemid=99)
Quote from: Ajax on January 11, 2008, 10:25:16 AM
Looks like it may be cancelled. (http://www.iesb.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4059&Itemid=99)
me happy if it is cancelled
I hope it gets cancelled, too.
They need to make this movie when all of the right pieces can fall into place. It is a big deal of a production, and half-arsing it on the "fast track" is surely not the way to go. To be honest, I'd rather see a few separate movies with deeper character development and mythos than a crammed FX spectacle of 'flat' characters. Make Wonder Woman in her own film. Green Lantern might be cool, especially with the popularity of the new book. The Flash? I guess..
see sadly you wont ever get all the pieces falling into place. there will never be a perfect time. if you do seperate films then if they do well studios will push for sequels which will hold it up longer.
and if you want to wait for the likes of bale and routh then forget it now. both bale and nolan have said that is they wont touch JLA unless its done exactly how they want.
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on January 11, 2008, 02:07:00 PM
see sadly you wont ever get all the pieces falling into place. there will never be a perfect time. if you do seperate films then if they do well studios will push for sequels which will hold it up longer.
and if you want to wait for the likes of bale and routh then forget it now. both bale and nolan have said that is they wont touch JLA unless its done exactly how they want.
Do you have a quote about that TUE? I've heard that Bale said he didn't like how Bats was portrayed in the JLA script, but that's it. Considering that it was supposedly a Tower of Babel treatment, that makes perfect sense to me.
It looks like Routh won't be playing Superman any more in any form anyways. Got that news a few days ago.
Well, he wasn't bad in the part, but he wasn't fantastic either. 'Course, that probably had more to do with the story than anything else.
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 11, 2008, 02:53:30 PM
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on January 11, 2008, 02:07:00 PM
see sadly you wont ever get all the pieces falling into place. there will never be a perfect time. if you do seperate films then if they do well studios will push for sequels which will hold it up longer.
and if you want to wait for the likes of bale and routh then forget it now. both bale and nolan have said that is they wont touch JLA unless its done exactly how they want.
Do you have a quote about that TUE? I've heard that Bale said he didn't like how Bats was portrayed in the JLA script, but that's it. Considering that it was supposedly a Tower of Babel treatment, that makes perfect sense to me.
not off hand sorry, it was post over at superherohype.com. it was coming from nolan that bale didnt want to do two back to back batman performaces, and that it ruined what they had established and it should follow there leads, which while i can agree does come across as a really childish mine mine mine attitude
I can see your point of view on that, but considering the context (what I know about it) it makes perfect sense to me.
Well, it looks like it's over.
The Justice League film has been officially "delayed indefinitely" (which is Hollywood-ese for "pretty much dead for the foreseeable future," especially when one considers the capital needed to get a project like this going).
http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12760
Not that it ever started... it was barely in pre-production before it got shelved.
Now where's my Justice League: The New Frontier DVD?
Apparently they've cast:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Martianmanhunter.jpg)
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/JLA-Gets-A-Martian-Manhunter-7980.html
Its back on again:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35756
Judging by the few pictures I could find, she seems to look right for the role. As long as her acting skills are up to par, I could see it.
Why did they cast baking soda as Batman?
Is the rest of his family named Navee, Airfors and Maureen?
* not my jokes
Although I do have a friend named Navy (pronounced Nav-ee, she's asian)