Freedom Reborn Archive

From Mindripper over on the COX boards regarding some questions he tossed Posi's way.  Lets see what jimmies he hit, tipped foul or struck out on.

QuoteI just got back from PAX, I had a wonderful time. I met Positron and Lighthouse, among other fun things. Many thanks to Lighthouse for the Mako and Ghost Widow Hero Clix.
Both of these guys were really personable and nice and Lighthouse took some good natured ribbing with great grace. He doesn't want to meet my Inv/EM Tank in the Arena.  I had a chance to ask Posi about a few things and was able to overhear other questions from other fans (Even though it was incredibley loud in side the expo hall it was hot too).

1. I asked him about future plans for the Shadow Shard and if it was going to go Co Op. Basically his answer was the the RWZ is what they wanted Co Op to be at this time, and that because of gameplay problems with the shard and how big it is that this wasn't something they intended on getting into the game anytime soon..

Alien invaders from an alternate universe seems to be a big deal for a co-op zone, I don't think another one following a similiar idea is needed so soon.  No issues with Posi on this on.

Quote2. I asked him about Pocket D getting year round contacts for Co Op and he basically said that would be seasonal stuuf only. I quickly followed this up with are we getting Halloween agian this year. His response was Yes, with some new twists and some new badges. He didn't go into details.

I actually like that Pocket D for the most part is not meant for actual missions and play outside of special seasonal events.  I think its cool and fun that its something considered away from the game and a place meant for players to enjoy without the hassles of missions, etc.  I'm with Posi on this one too.  Nice to hear the seasonal events will have some change too with new badges and stuff.

Quote3. I asked him if the 5th Column were comeing back. He said yes and left me under the impression that it would come in issue 11. That conjecture on my part though.

Cool.  It'll be nice to see them in the game again.  My favorite baddies.

Quote4. I asked him what he could tell me about I11, He said that there will be a number of new story lines introduced and plenty of things for level capped aka 50s to do.

Eh.  Plenty of things for 50s to do?  More repetitive missions of the same old, same old?  Oh joy.  I hope not.  I hope it would be something new and honestly interesting.  I'll believe this when I see it.

Quote5. Another fan asked about the new power sets, Posi said they will be Dual Blades and Willpower, and will be for all 4 of the Melee ATs in whate ever Combo makes sensce for them.

I am so underwhelmed by this.  On second thought, these powersets for COV would be pretty cool... especially dual blades.  I'd like to see these applied in COV.  I hope COH gets something more interesting, but at this point ANYTHING would be better than nothing.  I keep hearing shields are too difficult and a lot of excuses.  I think its a load of crap.  Hearing that Posi didn't want any more melee powersets was also a disapointment, since he thought what we had was enough and anything else would be repetitive.  Personally, I think the melee powersets lack depth, diversity, and interest.  All kicks (No karate chop?  What the hell gives?) and very bland looking punches with a rare exception of one or two unique powers.  I think plenty could be done with melee yet.  I'm starting to think Posi has blindfolds, a closed mind, and is looking for whatever is cheap, fast, quick and easy in regards to what to add to the game and has set COX on cruise control.   

Quote6. That Fan also asked about a lv cap increase. No.

Understandable.  Why add levels, just to add levels?  I think the game is suffering from issues with levels... but adding levels isn't going to help really.  I think opening up the game more and removing level restrictions in some aspects would be great.  HOWEVER there is a common need for people to accomplish goals and something for players to say they've attained.  They need to start giving players some new reward or carrot for playing their 50's if they're not going to raise levels... they need some other way for players to enjoy something showing "progress beyond 50".

Quote7. I asked about after 50 rewards such as extra enhancement slots. His answer was that was something they had discussed in house but that the tech programming is time consumeing and that that was way on the back burner.

Neither here nor there on this... but it seems anything Posi is not interested in or doesn't care for is going to be labeled time consuming and thus killed.

Quote8. I asked about the SG limit and the whole 75 accounts in a sg deal. This is something he says they want to implement but they are haveing Data Base problems with it. He further said that they thought they had the problem licked 2 issues ago but the solution that they had come up with had the potential to massively corrupt the data in super groups through out the game.

Hmmmmmm.  Now this is interesting.  I'm actually surprised they're working on this and looking for a way to try to solve it.  I wonder, weighing the good vs the bad... if maybe people wouldn't mind a SG info wipe --- just to allow this from working.  I see his issue.  I'm stunned they're working on it --- but very happy about it.

Quote9. Also my brother says that Lighthouse said that closed beta for i11 is right around the corner, its a matter of a few weeks. Keep in mind I didn't actually hear this but others in the group I was in confirmed thats what he said.

Thats all that I can remember off the top of my head.

I'm guessing October for closed beta and December is the new issue hitting live.  I actually enjoy the seasonal events.  Here's hoping I get to enjoy them with a free weekend like they usuall do with the new issues.

RTT

Sigh. Unless Blades and Willpower are *significantly* different from current melee sets, this does not bode well for my continued participation in the game.

Quote from: captainspud on August 26, 2007, 10:00:13 AM
Sigh. Unless Blades and Willpower are *significantly* different from current melee sets, this does not bode well for my continued participation in the game.

I feel ya'.  Waiting for something truly new to come along and inspire you.  Keep you playing.  Keep giving you the thrill you had when you first started a few years ago.

Just not going to happen.  Hell, even if THEY did add everything I wanted, I wouldn't come back.

Dual pistols.
Streetfighting set. 
Trenchcoats and scarf at the same time.
Jetpacks.
Vehicles.
Not even a skills system.

Just wouldn't change the fact I'd be doing the same damn missions over and over that I've been doing the last 3 years and likely wouldn't change the next 3 years coming.


RTT

I've wanted dual pistols ever since I first heard about the idea, which was a few months after I started playing. I'm a big fan of John Woo action movies, like Hard-Boiled, and I'd love to go all Inspector Tequila on the baddies. Looks like I'll have to wait and see if my computer can run Stranglehold to do that, though.

My biggest gripe with existing powersets has been that the Martial Arts powerset is misnamed; it might as well be called Kickboxing or Savate.

I've got a couple ideas I'd like to see in the game, but they'd be too hard to implement:

1. A Wrestling powerset. Would be hard to do for various reasons, a lot which involve collision detection and the fact you can't physically grab hold of enemies. Would have an attack switch to an animation simulating a random wrestling finisher when the attack actually takes out an enemy. I can't be the only one who would like to Powerbomb Lord Recluse or put Malaise out for the count with a Chokeslam.

2. A raid that involves stopping a giant monster (and I mean giant, as in makes Jurrasik and Adamastor look like midgets) that is rampaging through a city zone and destroying everything in sight, sort of like Godzilla attacking Tokyo. Would probably cause too much lag, and I don't think it would work co-op, as having a ton of Mastermind henchmen and Troller pets out would *really* kick up the lag to unmanagable levels.

Two ideas I have that could be implemented:

1. More gender-exclusive costume pieces for male characters (including huge body type, obviously), including maybe one or two new hairstyles.

2. Shoulder pets for male characters. A bat, falcon or an owl. Maybe a parrot that could be used by both genders for pirate themed characters.

From Reverend over on the main COH forums.  Seems as if he was able to get alittle clarification from the man.

QuoteI spoke directly to Posi at the booth yesterday, and asked what type of blades we were talking about(Short swords, daggers, etc.) and, while it was quite loud, I'm pretty sure he said scimitars. Also, didn't read through all the pages, but Posi said that Dual Blades will differ from the other weapon based melee sets, and all other attack sets evidently, because it has something cool no other power set does. He wouldn't even hint, but he said it's worth seeing and a lot of fun.

Ok, that took the wind out of my sails in regards to what dual blades would be.  Funny, since I'm waiting for the Pirates of the Burning Seas to be my next MMO.  Very anxious to see dual swords in PotBS, not in COX.  Something cool?  Something no other powerset does?

You know, there used to be a time when any of the devs said something "cool" is coming and I'd get excited.  Those days are long gone.  I think what Positron and I would deem as cool --- is worlds apart.

I would say a 360 attack, but claws already has that.  No clue what it could be.  Curious to see what it could be, but expecting it to be something insanely mundane.

QuoteAgain, not sure if this ground has been covered, but Willpower is a resistance set featuring predominantly permenant powers, thus using very little endurance. However, your over all resists won't be as high as other sets, and fairly low to non-existent against Smashing and Lethal. Pretty sure someone asked about mez protection and he said "Yeah, really good mez protection."

Eh.

QuoteThese are just confirmed for I11, and were the power sets voted to the top of the list, so I'm glad they're doing what it seems the majority want, but I'm with you guys in the PsiMelee or PsiBlades would be really awesome. Maybe we'll see the next highest entries in I12?  And, yeah, Posi wouldn't even really hint at what the "thing everyone's been asking for since beta" thing was. Even though everyone but me asked.

We'll never see the results of the poll.  Its puts to much pressure on them as to do what we voted for.  They're going to go the quick, easy and cheap route with power sets and take the poll as a friendly suggestion - nothing more.

The feature we all been asking for since Beta is going to be something to do with QOL and not something of actual meat in terms to gameplay or content --- bet on it.

RTT 

More from Posi at Pax on the COX forums, courtesy of Anachrodragon.

QuoteJust to add to this discussion, here's what I learned from talking to Positron at PAX:

- There are plans for more invention sets in the future. We discussed powers like debuffs and taunt, that currently do not have sets. No indication of timeframe of when these might be added.

Not groundshaking, but cool.

Quote- There are plans for more costume pieces in the future. Again, no timeframe.

I can understand not expecting more costume options in every issue, but really --- why was this question even asked?   :rolleyes:

Quote- He likes the idea of rewards that must be earned (like the merit system).

This scares me so much in that I actually like what the merit system could be, but what it will become under Positron.

Quote- He likes interesting AV fights... beyond the typical tank and spank. We discussed the Lord Recluse fight in the STF, and I told him that I thought it was a really well done, satisfying fight

.

Flashbacking back to States and the boss analogy he used as to what he thought challenges should be.  Yet again I'm excited be what could come about, but in fear of what Posi envisions.

QuoteAnd the most important thing I learned there:

There's no need to discuss regen in polite company. Seriously, it's like politics or religion. You're just better off if you don't go there. Bring up MoG and you're sure to elicit a slightly uncomfortable look.

I just want to thank Positron for being very gracious and welcoming of all our questions. It was a great night.

Wow... vague questions and vague answers.  Paint me thrilled.

RTT

Quote from: RTTingle on August 26, 2007, 08:35:44 AM

Quote7. I asked about after 50 rewards such as extra enhancement slots. His answer was that was something they had discussed in house but that the tech programming is time consumeing and that that was way on the back burner.

Neither here nor there on this... but it seems anything Posi is not interested in or doesn't care for is going to be labeled time consuming and thus killed.

Or it could be too time consuming.

Wow. EC and Spud sure come off jaded. :rolleyes:

-MJB

Willpower was one of the top vote getters?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!

That is the biggest lie he's ever said, no bones about it. No way in hell did willpower even reach the top 5 in votes. I don't care if there no results to prove me wrong, no one with half an inkling of what could be fun would vote for something as bland and uninteresting as freaking willpower.

I'm guaranteeing the psi sets, shields, dual blades and pretty much every other set on the list topped willpower. They just copped out and made the 2 easiest sets. Hell, if most of willpower is passive they don't even have to really animate squat. Talk about lazy. And I'm also willing to bet that dual blades will just recycle previous in-game animations with maybe 1 or 2 new flashy animation.

The only thing that piques my interest is the hope the 5th return. The rest? A year ago I might have been more excited, but now it's more "meh".

Quote from: MJB on August 26, 2007, 11:47:54 PM
Wow. EC and Spud sure come off jaded. :rolleyes:

Nah, I'm Jaded.  Spud is only disillusioned.

This is nothing for me really.  In another forum --- I'm going off.  I'm being restrained over here.

Quote from: Verfall on August 27, 2007, 01:01:42 AM
Willpower was one of the top vote getters?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!

That is the biggest lie he's ever said, no bones about it. No way in hell did willpower even reach the top 5 in votes. I don't care if there no results to prove me wrong, no one with half an inkling of what could be fun would vote for something as bland and uninteresting as freaking willpower...

-snip!-

I'm telling you --- this game will go down one day and there will never be a well rounded basic fighting set in it, ever.   

I still love how they put in certain options saying they would never be able to do them --- and put them in anyways.  That poll was utter horse pockey.  It has nothing to do with what we want and everything to do with, "Well... we couldn't do your top 5 options due to it being too time consuming or difficult, but look!  We did what we could... we did dual blades and will power!  See, will power was in the top 10 choices polled!"

Dual blades and willpower were going to go in ANYWAYS no matter what this poll said.  Dual blades already has animations in the game thanks to the red caps and willpower is a bunch of clicks with fancy auras.  Yeah, I'm thrilled.  Thanks for going quick (HA!), cheap, and easy.

A part of me says however that something in the poll was truthful.  I mean... here we are --- the only hero game out there... in a market diluged with fantasy.  Take out some of the game features like archery, sonics and super strength... hold a poll and add dual blades... and something tells me people will vote for the dual blades.

That scares me.

RTT

I'm quite disappointed by the powerset announcement myself.  All of those cool ideas and the best they can do is dual blades and willpower?

Now, I can see a place for willpower.  But I would rather have seen a 'street-fighting' powerset for scrappers so we can get decent bare-knuckle attacks for scrappers.  Heck, even fixing MA so that it isn't so gosh-awful end-hungry would help.  MA/SR should be a cool combo, but it mostly just sucks.  My level 10 MA/SR is very ineffective and easily squished.  Maybe MA/Willpower will work better.

I10 added nothing for me, really, and it's starting to sound like I11 will be more of the same-o.  I hope I'm wrong.  I'd like to see the sub-20 levels be more entertaining and less of a drudge.  The best way to keep the alt-itis folks like me hooked is new AT's and powersets and they just aren't keeping up with that expectation.

Now maybe the plan is to do Dual Blades and Willpower in the next ish for the easy win and then tackle something harder for I12.  That would be fine.

And I agree... We don't need another game pandering to the fantasy crowd and CoX already has enough of those elements.  I'd rather see more weird science elements.

Clearly, we need to create our own superhero MMO.  It's the only way we'll have satisfaction.

And on a different topic...

Wasn't EC always jaded?  I mean, what with the whole emerald color scheme going, and since I've never heard anyone referred to as "emeralded," jaded seems like the logical choice...

What?  Why's everyone looking at me like that?

Spud isn't jaded.

Spud is just bored.

Quote from: Viking on August 27, 2007, 07:08:32 AM
Clearly, we need to create our own superhero MMO.  It's the only way we'll have satisfaction.

Well, I assume that Cryptic pretty much has to toe the line with NCSoft and whatever NCSoft's priority is, that's what will get done.  The fanbase would send a pretty strong signal of dissatisfaction if a significant number of them fail to renew their subscriptions after I11 goes live.  That might shake things up a bit.  Or maybe they'll just continue to string things along until the game dies for lack of interest.  Or the economy will tank and people will find other things to do with their money, like eat.  Who knows?

I am still finding enjoyment in the game, but I could find it a lot more enjoyable.  I'm currently having a ball with two of my more whimsical creations... Flyin Monkey, who looks about what you might expect from a WoZ reject, and SpaceCadet.  The addition of the crouch emote really adds something to FM's look, which just goes to show that minor visual improvements can and do make a difference.

Quote from: captainspud on August 27, 2007, 08:53:07 AM
Spud isn't jaded.

Spud is just bored.

More like "over-baked"?

Thats pretty much it BB.  I never really stopped enjoying COX.  I just don't enjoy it enough to keep subscribing.  I'm not getting the same level of enjoyment out of it as I was before.  And I just didn't seem worth it to waste money to keep playing it until I did start hating it.  What good is that?  So I decided to put my money to better use by showing how unhappy I am in the game and not satisfied with it anymore by not subscribing.

Just a shame about the posting policy in regards to people who no longer subscribe.

I'm sure people like me would love to share our opinions on what can and will get us back into the game.  We just can't.  Shame too.  You'd think that would be some pretty valuable information and opinions.  After all, I did put 3 years into the game ;P


ANYWAYS.

Lotta hub bub over the new sets and some of the Devs have finally decided to talk about all the stuff spread from PAX.

Positron sez...

QuoteStates wanted me to chime in:

Dual Blades was the winner of the "offensive powerset" poll. Psionic Weaponry was second, and Street Fighting was a distant third (but strangely had huge forum support in the discussions).

The winner of the "defensive powerset" poll was... Shields. And we did try to implement this for Issue 11. The only problem was to make Dual Blades as cool as possible, that left us without the time to get Shields done in time for the release. Shields is the single most complicated powerset we will ever do. The amount of animations it involves is staggering. But we DO KNOW you want it. It is on the list of things to get into the game!

Willpower was second place, and a lot simpler animation-wise. Castle had some really cool ideas for it, so it got the greenlight. (Third place was Growth, another troublesome-in-the-engine powerset).

So there you have it. I expanded upon the troubles of Shields a little at PAX, so those of you who caught me there got the full story on that, and probably shared it elsewhere in the forums that I haven't read yet.

Back Street Brawler sez...

QuoteJust wanted to add my two cents.

Dual Blades are currently fast. Really fast. So fast, probably going to have to slow them down before we go into testing. They are also going to have a few extra gimmicks that are going to make them a very interesting set to play. This set is currently being designed for Stalkers, Scrappers, Brutes, and Tanks.

Willpower is our attempt to give the players a powerset that can fulfill the 'tough guy' concept and we're trying to hit a very minimal FX look to it. We have to have some kind of visual effects for the various toggles and clicks just so players will know what's on and what's not on, but overall it's going to be a much less glowy/sparkly than any of the the other 'defensive' powersets. We'll see if that survives our initial closed beta testing or if players will just feel it's lackluster because of the subdued FX.

  I don't care how cool dual blades is, like I said... we already have a lot of blades in the game in several forms --- we don't have shields in any.  I would have liked to have seen shields get the priority because of that, instead the other way around.

   That aside, I am honestly shocked that shields are coming.  Or at least thats what I'm assuming from what was said.  I don't see shields within the next 2 issues --- then its safe to say they're full of crap about what they say.

   Interesting how Posi did say that street fighting was voted a distant third, despite the support for it on the forums.  That just reiterates my fears about the silent majority.  I'm disappointed about it, really.  3 years later and we get dual blades because of the cool factor... and I still can't play like (and may never!) whats considered your common two fisted hero, but I'll have his Willpower.

   Streetfighting should have been in the game since day one.... considering its the most common fighting style of all heroes and villians.  Noones begging for any new animations or anything overly cool... its easy... can we please get it in?  Please?

RTT

I voted for Dual Blades and Ball and Chain, and Willpower and Shields.

So my votes got in. :)

Quote from: Tortuga on August 28, 2007, 06:11:07 PM
I voted for Dual Blades and Ball and Chain, and Willpower and Shields.

So my votes got in. :)

Ooooooh!

So its YOUR fault!  ;)

RTT

QuoteI keep hearing shields are too difficult and a lot of excuses.  I think its a load of crap.

QuoteNeither here nor there on this... but it seems anything Posi is not interested in or doesn't care for is going to be labeled time consuming and thus killed.

QuoteI don't see shields within the next 2 issues --- then its safe to say they're full of crap about what they say.

It's a shame that your mostly well thought out posts get dismissed by the hyperbole they contain.

Quote from: Zapow on August 28, 2007, 08:52:53 PMIt's a shame that your mostly well thought out posts get dismissed by the hyperbole they contain.

Par for the course around here really.

I said it before, I'll say it again...

Noone loves being proved wrong more than me because of the strong statements I make.  I WANT them to prove me wrong.  Theres nothing I'd love for them to do more than prove me wrong.

We'll see what happens and what the future holds.  Pure and simple.

So lets dismiss the hyperbole and get to the part of my posts you don't think as such and discuss.  I'd much rather a discussion here than trade insults.  People seem to get stuck on that here, can't look beyond it and not look into the meat of a message.  I have a thread in another board where we have done such.  We've had our fun, had our say... cut the fat out and now we're down to the meat an potatoes and discussing some good stuff.

You got your jab in, now followup - discuss the parts of my post you don't consider hyperbole.

RTT 

Quote from: RTTingle on August 26, 2007, 08:35:44 AMI keep hearing shields are too difficult and a lot of excuses.  I think its a load of crap.

Even mannered question: how is it a load of crap?

I for one have no trouble imagining how much trouble shields will be...

QuoteShields is the single most complicated powerset we will ever do. The amount of animations it involves is staggering.

There's your key word... animations.

Is it technically impossible?  No.  The game already has the concept of Defense.  That's just numbers.

Shields very likely involves other difficulties.

1. Will they be right-handed, or left-handed?  Let's assume left-handed.

2. Is there a 'weapon draw' factor?

3. What do we need to do to make a shield look right on -any- model?  How does it attach?  What do we need to do to support customizing a shield just like a cape or wings?

4. How does it interact with powers that have a 'weapon draw' factor?

5. What animations involving the left hand do we need to change in order to make them work with or without a shield?  If shields are 'drawn' objects, which animations require the shield to be 'put away'?  How do we trigger that reliably?

6. If we have Shield Attack and Shield Defense, how do those powers interact?  Especially considering the 'weapon draw' mechanic.

The sheer number of animations and powers in the game that might have to be touched or considered is one complication, and it's not trivial.  I'm no game designer and even I can appreciate this issue, at least fuzzily.

If they go with an energy based shield, rather than a metallic shield, they can get past the redraw effect by having it spawn like stone armor hammer attacks. It just appears when you use it. They can also get around the throwing and deflecting animation by just having another shield spawn on the arm after you throw it.

The problem I see is making it work as a defensive powerset. How can you have it block attacks while still working in offense. In the end the only way I can see it working is too take, say, energy armor, and convert it into a shield set, with a version of hibernate at the end where you sit there with the shield up and deflect attacks. Otherwise you're going Captain America and using your reflexes to dodge things. The only difference being when you activate your toggles a shield appears on your left arm.

I just can't see a Shield set working like most people hope. But this is why I leaned more towards psi melee and defense. All that would take is adding some pink colored graphics to already in game animations.

And seriously, scrappers nothing having a straight up fighting set is an injustice to the comics this game tries to vaguely represent.

Quote from: Midnight on August 29, 2007, 05:23:57 AM

Quote from: RTTingle on August 26, 2007, 08:35:44 AMI keep hearing shields are too difficult and a lot of excuses.  I think its a load of crap.

Even mannered question: how is it a load of crap?

I have no doubt doing shields is difficult.  I think the issue is how difficult they are making it for themselves.  Can't be that difficult --- they do have an NPC with a shield after all.  I thought we weren't going to see shields at all and it was going to get was the usual brush off for being too difficult, etc.  That they weren't even going to try was how it sounded and what my issue with them was.

I think Posi has this attitude where if it shows any difficulty --- its shelved.  Instead of them working on it bit by bit and eventually getting it out. 

Thankfully, that was not the case and it was later made clear they are working on shields - I'm pretty happy about that and I made that clear a few messages down.  I'm still disappointed in the decision to set it aside to finish dual blades though - as a priority.  Considering there is no representation for shields at all for the players themselves --- I think it should have gotten the priority.  But thats just me.

I'm still worried though.  Posi said he was floored by all the animations that would be affected by shields --- which gets me wondering that they may still shelve it yet in the middle of making it.  More so since they said they set it aside to do dual blades which sounded pretty heavy with stuff itself considering animations and whatever the wonder feature or mechanic it has will be.

RTT

Quote from: BlueBard on August 29, 2007, 06:19:37 AM

QuoteShields is the single most complicated powerset we will ever do. The amount of animations it involves is staggering.

So far, I'm sure other power sets would have animation issues as well.  Thing is, there already is an NPC baddie with a shield so they have some animations already and a base tow ork from.  So it can't be that difficult as if its all from scratch and something they have never done before.

So this leads me to ask, if animations and clipping is the biggest issue... how freaking big are the shields going to be?  The npc baddie if I remember correctly had a body length shield... which is a bad idea.  Something that huge... oh yeah --- they will have problems.  I hope they're making shields a reasonable size to at least limit this problem with animations and clippings. 

Quote2. Is there a 'weapon draw' factor?

Depends.  Its possible that if you choose the power... you will always have it out.  I'm going to assume that since they say animations are going to be a huge problem.  I don't think it will be used for offense much, so I don't think they want a draw on it.  They'll always want it out.  I'm thinking you'll always have it out and you have to toggle on your power to concentrate or focus on actually using it for defense.  A shield as a click power would be just insane.  The most logical thing though would be to make it a draw... and you'll see the reasons why below.  Just have it like everything else that drops toggles, you have to draw your shield again when they drop for whatever reason.

Quote3. What do we need to do to make a shield look right on -any- model?  How does it attach?  What do we need to do to support customizing a shield just like a cape or wings?

And this is where the size of the shield comes into play and is the big question.  How do you pick a good size that'll make it look good an all shapes and sizes?  I dont think we'll be able to modify it like a costume part, sadly.  That would be cool though, sadly --- I don't think we're going to see it.

Quote4. How does it interact with powers that have a 'weapon draw' factor?

Another good question.  What happens with temp powers that require two hands, like the ghost slaying axe the bow and arrow, etc.  I think that is where Posi's head is starting to spin.  You have to animate the shield to keep it out of the way.  In cases like that, drawing would be a good thing.  I still don't think drawing a shield though is a good idea, thats just me.  It may be the most logical thing to do however to handle the whole weapon juggling issue. 

Quote6. If we have Shield Attack and Shield Defense, how do those powers interact?  Especially considering the 'weapon draw' mechanic.

I don't think shields will be heavy on the offense, it is a defensive set after all, the most we'll see is a smash attack or two as part of that defensive set.  I don't think throwing a shield is, will or should be an option considering Marvels history on that and previous rulings.  Sure doing the Cap thing would be cool, but it won't make or break the set or is a must have.  I think we can do without throwing a shield just fine.

RTT

Quote from: Verfall on August 29, 2007, 03:16:29 PM
If they go with an energy based shield, rather than a metallic shield, they can get past the redraw effect by having it spawn like stone armor hammer attacks. It just appears when you use it. They can also get around the throwing and deflecting animation by just having another shield spawn on the arm after you throw it.

While I don't think an energy should would as desirable as an actual metalic shield... wait... hmmm.  You know, that gives me an idea.  You know, a shield that has plates that slides out and expands in something similiar to an armadillo effect would be really cool --- and my be the best way for them to solve a lot of their animation and clipping problems.  Hmmmmmm!

QuoteThe problem I see is making it work as a defensive powerset. How can you have it block attacks while still working in offense. In the end the only way I can see it working is too take, say, energy armor, and convert it into a shield set, with a version of hibernate at the end where you sit there with the shield up and deflect attacks. Otherwise you're going Captain America and using your reflexes to dodge things. The only difference being when you activate your toggles a shield appears on your left arm.  I just can't see a Shield set working like most people hope. But this is why I leaned more towards psi melee and defense. All that would take is adding some pink colored graphics to already in game animations.

And I think that will be one of the things going against shields is how people imagine it block things actively.  I really think asking for something that mechanical and that detailed is a bt much.  I think the set will be a fair mix of things though.  The shield will be large enough and the animations for the set will have it so that it casually being in front of the player character will give the idea that it can be used as a shield.  We flip the toggles on, and we "focus" on actually using the shield and our defense go up.  I don't think we'll see any actual blocking animations with those toggles.  Now, I do see there being one click that does have the shield held up in front as an active defense, something like the usual tanker clickw where they can take massive amounts of damage in exchange for end drops or some such.  On the offensive side, a good bash would be nice and a short charge with knockback would be even sweeter --- no chances of that though. 

QuoteAnd seriously, scrappers nothing having a straight up fighting set is an injustice to the comics this game tries to vaguely represent.

Its almost out and out embarrassing that it has gone on this long.  Its like a sick joke at this point.

RTT

QuoteCan't be that difficult --- they do have an NPC with a shield after all.

Oh, my God.

My sweet, merciful JEBUS.

EC, please just stop talking. MAKING A FULLY FUNCTIONAL SHIELD IS SO MUCH WORK YOU WOULD CRY IF YOU UNDERSTOOD IT. Having a character who stands stock-still 24/7 and making a functional shield that redraws, comes back when thrown, and deflects incoming shots while still allowing you to attack, are two ENTIRELY different things. A functional shield, as Vage describes it (and to do it right, it MUST work as he describes it, or else the community will thrall about how half-assed the shield is) is borderline IMPOSSIBLE in the CoH engine.

I've said this before, over and over, but apparently I need to say it again: NEVER, EVER, EVER assume that something "can't be that hard". Because when you're working with 3d, EVERYTHING is "that hard". The simplest costume pieces still take many hours (even days) to bone and balance vertex weights.

If they took the time to properly implement shields, it would take so long that from Cryptic's PoV, it would be enough to justify a new issue.

EC, seriously, you REALLY need to learn the difference between the following three items:

1. I WOULD LIKE
2. THEY SHOULD DO
3. IT WOULD BE REALLY EASY TO DO

The reason people get so frustrated with your posts is that your brain thinks option (1), but your fingers type options ( 2) and (3). You come off as an arrogant know-it all. And trust me, it takes one to know one. Except in this case, I actually do know enough about this stuff to know beyond a doubt how incredibly wrong you are.

If you want to talk about features you'd like implemented, STOP phrasing them as ( 2) and (3). Because when you do it that way, you go from stating a personal preference or request, to making flatly false statements. Making shields IS NOT "not very hard". Shields would require a rewrite of a huge part of the graphics engine. Implementing vehicles IS NOT "something they SHOULD do". While not "hard" per se, the rewrites to this part of the engine would be very time-consuming and would be forcing the physics engine to behave in a way it was never intended to. The amount of work they'd need to shoehorn vehicles into the game cannot be justified when they look at the dozen other features they could implement with the same investment of time and effort.

I am not saying that:

a) Nothing complex can be added to the game
b) I'm happy with what Cryptic gives us in updates

Not at all. I am hugely dissatisfied with what they've given us. The choices Cryptic has made as far as what features to give us have been so flawed, in my view, that I'm basically planning to quit the game once my subscription comes out. But the difference is, I don't blame them. They made a product that kept me entertained for THREE YEARS. Only two other games have held my attention for that long. It's an incredible achievement. I would love to have new powersets to experiment with, but unlike you, I understand and acknowledge the enormous amount of effort it takes to design, implement, test, and balance the stuff I want to see in-game, and I understand that it's probably not worth it from their point of view to be constantly expanding the game just to keep the old farts like you and me entertained. All games have a fixed lifespan. After a while, you're going to run out of things to do and wander away. This is the nature of the industry. The fact that they manage to keep people as long as they do is quite amazing. Like it or not, catering to die-hards is a really bad investment of time. They have to weigh the benefits of you staying with the cost to keep you, and I after a point, the ratio starts to skew toward the wrong side.

The game kept you for a while, and now you're bored with it. That's fine. I'm in the same situation. Don't sling mud at the devs, accusing them of lying and laziness. Whether you like their output or not, they ARE working very hard. They ARE putting out a good product.

Please stop confusing your desires with objective requirements. It's very, very annoying, and I grow tired of having to correct you every time.

'Lo Spud.  :)

QuoteEC, please just stop talking. MAKING A FULLY FUNCTIONAL SHIELD IS SO MUCH WORK YOU WOULD CRY IF YOU UNDERSTOOD IT. Having a character who stands stock-still 24/7

Hmmmm, me picturing the whole staff at Cryptic throwing fits and crying is kinda' amusing.  Anyways, I am not talking about Blue Steel.  I'm talking about the baddie that was in the game and that had a full body sized shield... if I remember correctly.

Quoteand making a functional shield that redraws, comes back when thrown, and deflects incoming shots while still allowing you to attack, are two ENTIRELY different things.

Well, duh.

QuoteA functional shield, as Vage describes it (and to do it right, it MUST work as he describes it, or else the community will thrall about how half-assed the shield is) is borderline IMPOSSIBLE in the CoH engine.

I don't think the community will thrall about it, at least not anymore than they would any other new power set that lacks certain details --- like how we alll still draw weapons from who knows where.  I think they understand certain limits, like blocking each and every shot with it and throwing the thing and things like clipping.  The game is far from perfect --- filled with lots of issues and people accept it, begrudingly.  Its what we come to accept from them in some regards.  I think people know what the reality of it is as compared to the blue sky visions.

QuoteI've said this before, over and over, but apparently I need to say it again: NEVER, EVER, EVER assume that something "can't be that hard". Because when you're working with 3d, EVERYTHING is "that hard". The simplest costume pieces still take many hours (even days) to bone and balance vertex weights.

I remember when animating a simple square back in the day at my fathers tv station when I was a wee lad reading about toasters and the new wave of animation super computers... waiting for that damn thing to animate a single turn took days.  Im aware of the complications to an extent.  But they have a start, there is an animated character with a shield with some animations --- its notlike theyre doing this fresh with new idea on how to do it.

I think its in relations to the shape and size of the shield where their problems are.  A smaller shield would probably make things easier for them.  A larger one --- obvious problems.  I think some of the issues they have with making each and every animation perfect with shields is a little silly.  Plenty of animations in the game where strange things happen that they dont fix or even sometimes turn into a new prestige sprint.  ;)  Plenty of clipping in the game still.  Plenty.  I just don't like the idea of them getting lost in the task and how impossible it seems and just saying screw it and not do it at all.

I don't buy the we do it perfect or we don't do it at all argument from them.  If that was true, the game would still have never been put online.  Its a matter of finding a line between what is acceptable and what isn't.  Are people going to buitch over the small stuff?  Sure... its what people do.  But overall I think a lot more people are going to enjoy "half assed" shields than what many people imagine they should be.  Would love to see shields be perfect and do everything everyone wants... I just know its not possible and we won't see it.

Who knows I may be wrong and shields may be the most incredible thing ever --- if it is, they'll have me as a costumer again perhaps.

And I assume it can't be that hard because there is, or at least was a NPC in the game with a full sized shield that did move and did basic animations.  Its in the game, so its possible.  Easy?  Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.  Difficult?  Maybe, but it can't be that difficult or else it wouldnt be in the game already (however limited) and they wouldn't be trying to do it now.

QuoteIf they took the time to properly implement shields, it would take so long that from Cryptic's PoV, it would be enough to justify a new issue.

I'm willing to give them 2 issues to see this, not including the coming issue.  Thats what, going each issue = 4 months,  till this time next year?  I think thats fair to see it.

You know, maybe thats the issue is the usgae of the term "difficult", maybe a better term would be --- time consuming?  I don't think the powerset is difficult.  Time consuming?  Yes, very!

QuoteEC, seriously, you REALLY need to learn the difference between the following three items:

Lemmie get a pen and take notes.

Quote1. I WOULD LIKE

I express that all the time, its an opinion.  :)

Quote2. THEY SHOULD DO

I express that all the time too, its an opinion.  :)

Quote3. IT WOULD BE REALLY EASY TO DO

You know... the only thing I said that would be easy to do in this thread - was a simple streetfighting set.

QuoteThe reason people get so frustrated with your posts is that your brain thinks option (1), but your fingers type options ( 2) and (3). You come off as an arrogant know-it all. And trust me, it takes one to know one. Except in this case, I actually do know enough about this stuff to know beyond a doubt how incredibly wrong you are.

Boy... lot of arrogant know it alls that want streetfighting than.  And I thought I was all alone.

Know it all?  Uhm, far from it.  Opinionated?  Very.

QuoteIf you want to talk about features you'd like implemented, STOP phrasing them as ( 2) and (3). Because when you do it that way, you go from stating a personal preference or request, to making flatly false statements.

Why do you keep insisting on me to be factual with an opinion?

I'll state and express my opinions any way I please... when I say they should do something, its my opinion as to what I think they should do.  Plain and simple. 

"What I think they should do..."  Why is that such an insulting start to an opinion?  Its what I'd like to see.  Its what I think they should do.  Plain and simple.  Oh sure, I could be polite and say something like, "You know... golly gee... I would really like it if they did so and do..."  Whats the difference in how I state my opinion?   

QuoteMaking shields IS NOT "not very hard". Shields would require a rewrite of a huge part of the graphics engine.

So why are they doing them and how are they being done in your expert opinion.  Im actually very curious as to your thoughts on this, you being the resident expert.  Ok, I stated my opinion, you say its false.  Cool.  Present your opinion or the facts as to why --- and you did.  Thanks for the exchange I appreciate it and as I said above --- I'm honestly curious as to your whole take on shields.

QuoteImplementing vehicles IS NOT "something they SHOULD do".

Thats your opinion.

QuoteWhile not "hard" per se, the rewrites to this part of the engine would be very time-consuming and would be forcing the physics engine to behave in a way it was never intended to. The amount of work they'd need to shoehorn vehicles into the game cannot be justified when they look at the dozen other features they could implement with the same investment of time and effort.

I still think small vehicles as emotes is the way to go and don't see the issue with it as related to whats already in the game clipping wise, etc.  I see them implement a lot of things that are not neccessary in the game every issue.  Again, its a matter of opinion.  Emotes, new costume parts, those little click messages on certain items for no reason.  Its all  a matter of opinion.  We have 4 new fly emotes that have no purpose other than to be different poses.  Why cant running have a motorcycle pose?  Why can't swimming have a jetski pose?  You say its a waste of time.  I see them wasting time on lots of other things... whats it matter what they waste their time on?  I'd like to see them waste their time on possible vehicle emotes.  Why not?

Anyways... old issue... lets get back to what we were discussing before.

QuoteI am not saying that:

a) Nothing complex can be added to the game
b) I'm happy with what Cryptic gives us in updates

Not at all. I am hugely dissatisfied with what they've given us. The choices Cryptic has made as far as what features to give us have been so flawed, in my view, that I'm basically planning to quit the game once my subscription comes out. But the difference is, I don't blame them. They made a product that kept me entertained for THREE YEARS. Only two other games have held my attention for that long. It's an incredible achievement. I would love to have new powersets to experiment with, but unlike you, I understand and acknowledge the enormous amount of effort it takes to design, implement, test, and balance the stuff I want to see in-game, and I understand that it's probably not worth it from their point of view to be constantly expanding the game just to keep the old farts like you and me entertained. All games have a fixed lifespan. After a while, you're going to run out of things to do and wander away. This is the nature of the industry. The fact that they manage to keep people as long as they do is quite amazing. Like it or not, catering to die-hards is a really bad investment of time. They have to weigh the benefits of you staying with the cost to keep you, and I after a point, the ratio starts to skew toward the wrong side.

I think they need to learn a balance and I see it... they are putting forth an effort, I see that.  Its just not enough to pull me back.  For the silliness that is dual blades... yes, they are indeed doing shields.  Despite not seeing streetfighting, they are doing Willpower... something for natural heroes at least.  Plenty of new zones.  A few new maps.  Plenty new and different --- its just all basically still the same though.  ;P

I see it.

I just have to wonder in how much of a crowd dual blades is going to bring in or keep.  I don't see people leaving or coming because of dual blades.  But what are the chances of people coming back for vehicles?  Skills?  Etc?  I think it would bring some people in.  I like what inventions is by itself.  I like what merits are by themselves.  I would have liked to see them both work together as a skills system.  I could go on, but well... I have plenty of those messages elsewhere. 

QuoteThe game kept you for a while, and now you're bored with it. That's fine. I'm in the same situation. Don't sling mud at the devs, accusing them of lying and laziness. Whether you like their output or not, they ARE working very hard. They ARE putting out a good product.

Working, yes.  Hard?  I'm sure.  Lying?  Perhaps I am a bit over the top there... but I'm just very suspicious of what they do and why and considering their decisions sometimes.  Laziness?  I see it.  Not all of them, but I have to wonder.  I try to call them on it... I'm not going to overlook it...

But you know what Spud... when they do something right --- I'll be the first one to say it and I'll be the first one to say I'm wrong.

QuotePlease stop confusing your desires with objective requirements. It's very, very annoying, and I grow tired of having to correct you every time.

No can do.  They are requirements, if they want to see my money again.

Think of it this way Spud.

I'm a Miami Dolphins fan... but I am very, very, very disappointed in the decisions they made this year and the last few years.  I used to do at least 2 games a year.  The last few years, I haven't done any.  I'm not going to show them my money until they prove me wrong or do what I want.  If they show me that they did make the right decisions and that I am wrong and they do perform --- they will see my money and I will support them again.

RTT

You keep mentioning a character in-game who uses a shield. Who is this? I've never seen a working shield in the game, of any size. I believe you're mistaken. If you can find me a screenshot, we'll talk. But I've never seen it, and this is the first time I've seen it mentioned in relation to player shields (ie, somebody would've brought it up in the half-dozen shield threads I've read, no?)

The fact that they're doing them at all surprises me. It's a ton of work, but apparently they think it's worth the effort.

The reason it's so difficult is that properly executing shields would require them to completely recode the way the game handles animation. Right now, the engine has a one-for-one animation system-- each action has one motion (or pool of motions) set to it. When the action is executed, the engine calls up the animation cycle and executes it. This animation sequence is rigid-- throwing a punch requires position data at every frame for every bone in the model. It runs through a set of frames, then resumes a ready position. Freedom Force works the same way.

I've seen games that had functioning shielding systems. It's an odd example, but look at Jedi Knight 2-- the character's lightsaber can act as both a weapon and a shield. They've coded a system into it for interrupting attack animations in a fluid manner to quickly add a parry, and then resume the attack motions. It's very elegantly done, but it was probably enormously difficult to code up. Sequencing animation on the fly is very processor-intensive, and they likely spent a huge chunk of the development time making this system work. Of course, it was worth it for them-- lightsaber combat is central to that game. If it didn't look right, the whole game would lose the realism they worked so hard to pull off.

There are two problems with adding dynamic shield blocking to the game. First of all, you need a way to make the blocking flow into the punching, which is a huge undertaking. CoH's one-to-one animation system is integral to the engine; suddenly changing it to allow resumeable, or even worse, blending, animation interrupt is a colossal task. Even small additions to the game have proven to cause crashes and instability; suddenly telling the fundamental engine processes to change how they work is an invitation for disaster.

The other difficulty with shields is that they'd need to redo essentially every single animation into the game to make sense with a shield in the hand. Shields are heavy; changing your body's weight distribution has a dramatic, noticeable effect on how you move. Try running, and then running with a heavy backpack. It's a hugely different motion. You throw your weight differently, you rise less on the push-through, and you take shorter steps. It's the same with a shield. Suddenly adding 50 pounds to the left side of the body would change every move you make, from your walk to the way you throw a punch. And trust me-- if it wasn't accounted for in new animations, it would look very, very wrong. I did a lot of animation last year where we tried to add props onto "naked" motions, and the first thing we learned is how bizarre it looks for someone to effortlessly swing heavy objects around, since they weren't actually there when the motion was captured. It's a big distraction. We showed a certain clip of animation to a few different parties after we'd added large rifles to a set of animations which were captured without real props, and every single person we showed it to commented how weird the animation looked. The hands were moving too fast. The characters looked like cartoons.

To properly add shields, they either need to tweak *every single* animation in the game to reflect the lopsided weight addition. Trust me-- if they don't, you WILL notice. It will be jarring and will completely tear you out of the game. I cannot stress enough how much tedious work that would be. It could take six months. SOLID.

There are two alternatives to this problem, but they're both awful. First of all, they could disjoint the shield arm and integrate a dynamics system (like the one used for capes and particles) to counter-weight the arm relative to what the rest of the body is doing. This is still a lot of coding, but without the extra art team burden. This system would also allow them to simply tell the left arm to block whenever a shot comes in, and make sure that all "active" animation uses the right arm only. The problem, of course, is that this would look friggin terrible. The character would look like a possessed rag doll.

The other option is to simply ignore all these considerations and make shields a cosmetic item only, like capes. If they do this, I predict an uprising. I refuse to believe they'd be that lazy. The good news is, they're not doing it this way. How do I know? I know because shields aren't going to come out in I11. If they were using this method, they could knock shields out in two weeks. The fact that they acknowledge the difficulty and pushed back the delivery tells me they're trying to do it right.

As for the rest of your statements-- no, you don't get off that easily. Yes, you can of course state your opinion any time you like. Any statement prefaced with "in my opinion" or "I think" or anything of the sort is above argument. It's your opinion, and that's that. The problem is, you don't do this. You write long essays where you try to sound authoritative and make blunt statements about what people SHOULD do (and not what YOU THINK they should do) and what IS easy. Sorry, but when you phrase them that way, you're making attempts at a factual statement, but your facts are either wrong, or completely nonexistant.

If you'd like, I can write up a post where I quote you dozens of times making these statements. I'd rather not, but I leave the option open if you really want to argue that point.

State your opinion, but state it AS opinion. If you don't know what you're talking about-- and let me be clear, you don't-- then stop making assured statements. It's irresponsible, as far as anybody can be considered to have a responsibility about the way they conduct themselves on the internet. You're basically lying, and hoping nobody calls you on it. It's just really, really shady.

People make dumb statements all the time online. It's the nature of a system free of identity or accountability. The difference is, you're the only one on this forum (and here I mean this particular forum, not "the boards" as a whole) who does it ALL THE TIME, practically every time you post. Yes, a lot of what you say IS true-- when you talk about existing mechanics, past events, and the like. The problem is, you blend statements of truth with unfounded ones, and it's hard for people who don't know the truth to tell the difference. Poor, ignorant BlueBard (oh, how I love picking on BlueBard. :P) reads your posts, and they fill his little head with terrible lies. You're BREAKING him, and all the others like him. You're breaking their brains.

I'm not asking that you stop stating opinions. I only ask you to stop stating opinion as fact, as you do so very, very often. I again refer you to these:

1. I WOULD LIKE
2. THEY SHOULD DO
3. IT WOULD BE REALLY EASY TO DO

The first is opinion, and is clearly such. The second implies that you know the facts, and you know the correct course. You SHOULD stop trying to your opinions as fact. I know this. The last is much the same. You imply that you know what is involved in whatever you're talking about. You don't. You never do. Every time you post, you suggest things that would be way too hard to integrate INTO AN EXISTING GAME. CoH, when it all comes down to it, is a surprisingly rigid engine. It's built for variability, but only within certain fixed variables. They've repeatedly demonstrated how difficult it is for them to teach the engine new tricks. If they were building the sequel, then all of this ideas would be relatively easy. I cannot stress enough how much easier it is to do ANYTHING in a game when it's part of the plan from the beginning, rather than being patched in. If they expected to need shields from the start, that would have affected their choice of game engine. They might have chosen a completely different engine, one which comes with a more dynamic animation system. They didn't, so they didn't. Dramatic changes to the engine are just way too hard to do. Making a computer system do something it's not meant for almost always leads to a mess.

Oy, that's all the rant I've got in me tonight. Please, please, stop making these requests. It's clear to everyone that you've always wanted CoH to be something different than it is. You really need to understand how big the changes you suggest are. They're game engine code. They're stuff you never want to mess with. I started a thread for CoH2 planning- THAT is where your ideas belong. They're too big, too unwielding to patch in. Yes-- all of them. I can't remember a single reasonable suggestion you've ever made.

You really need to make your peace with game we have. It's never going to be the game you want it to be. But, CoH2 COULD be. Throw your ideas in the ring now, WITHIN THE RIGHT CONTEXT, and we can refine them into something so amazing that the devs will HAVE to listen. But as is, you're just asking too much. And unlike the rest of the crowd, who make a silly suggestion and then move on, you basically do NOTHING BUT make silly suggestions. It's over half your posts, either making or defending silly suggestions. And I or someone else always have to wade in and argue you down, to avoid misinforming the bystanders.

Go ahead and complain about the new powersets. You're entirely founded in your complaints, I think they made really boring choices. There's a school of thought that there's no point pointing out a problem without also suggesting a solution. Well, this is crap. There's a line in GalaxyQuest I've always liked-- "It doesn't take a great actor to know a bad one." The layman is an excellent judge of success. You don't know the first thing about making a game, but you are 100% qualified to critique one. Everybody is. Complain about the flaws, but stop suggesting solutions. Your solutions just don't work. You don't understand enough about the processes to make useful suggestions. There is NOTHING WRONG with pointing out a problem, and ending right there. All you accomplish with your solution essays is to lose credibility, and distract from the original complaint.

Quote from: captainspud on August 29, 2007, 08:59:33 PM
You keep mentioning a character in-game who uses a shield. Who is this? I've never seen a working shield in the game, of any size. I believe you're mistaken. If you can find me a screenshot, we'll talk. But I've never seen it, and this is the first time I've seen it mentioned in relation to player shields (ie, somebody would've brought it up in the half-dozen shield threads I've read, no?)

Screenie found.  Ah, the Council Ascendants.  Thats who they were.  If I remember correctly, they pulled out a full sized shield and pretty much stood behind it like it was a moment of glory thing and nothing could affect them during that time.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/images/0/0f/Ascendant_Archon_Shield.jpg

QuoteSnipping Spuds very cool expert opinion on shields only for brevity sakes... it really is cool --- I suggest you go back and read it.  Fascinating stuff.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about how I should make my statements, opinions, and such.  Plain and simple.

As for my proposed solutions, they are offered as a player only --- never once have I said I was an expert, a programmer or coder or anything of the such and I don't think anyone here has ever mistaken that.  I have no credibility to lose, nor was I looking to gain any by offering my ideas and solutions.  Its your opinion they are usless.  Fine.  Expert or not, it doesn't give you the authority to dictate I can't share them.

Again, I only care HOW you share them. When you're stating an opinion, make that clear. The bulk of your opinions and suggestions are stated as fact. It's either sloppy, or intentionally sneaky. Either way, cut it out. Please.

*puts moderator hat on*

Keep it civil gentlemen or I lock it.

*takes off moderator hat*

-MJB

*flashes Meejub*

Quote from: captainspud on August 29, 2007, 10:30:38 PM
*flashes Meejub*

Wow. You should hand out magnifying glasses before you do that Spud, otherwise the effect just isn't there  :thumbup:

Anyway, back on topic.

You showed the ascendants shield EC. Unfortunately that shield is far from what one could functionally use as a shield set. The closest in-game we have now is Blue Steel over in KR, and the shield he carries is the main reason you don't see him show up anywhere else except in mission clues. The ascendants shield could only be used in my idea of a Hibernate-esque tier 9, which is almost exactly how the ascendants use it.

I truly believe we're not going to see actual physical shields, for much of the same reasons spud mentioned. I really think they're going to go the USAgent route and add in a colored energy shield, and than go with a reflexes based defensive set. It'll probably be bright red and  possibly not even round shaped, maybe more kite style. They don't have to account for weight issues, and it fits with most animations. The problem arises, however, when you look at Katana scrappers. Since the redid the animations for them many moons ago, a character now wields the katana with both hands. Broadsword scrappers and mace and axe tankers don't suffer this problem. Than you have the issue of the dual blade attack set. It's going to look awfully stupid wielding 2 blades with a shield strapped to your arm. At this point you're going to have to dismiss shield defense from every AT that gets dual blades. My assumption is scrappers and stalkers would be the only sets to get dual blades, since they aren't very tanky or brutey even.

Perhaps that's my biggest complaint with the selection of sets. Willpower is fine and dandy, you can cram that into all 4 melee AT's really. It's the choice of dual blades that really throws things off. A 3rd set should have been selected for the tanks and brutes. For tanks an easy fix to this would be finally giving them the electric sets, and for brutes finally giving them some of the weapon sets. Redraw be damned, I'm sure plenty of people don't care if redraw costs them a few fury points. Only your hardcore min-maxxers are going to care, and I'm willing to bet they're vastly outnumbered. Besides, they're too busy making fire/kin trollers. By giving tanks two new primaries you fix the disparity in numbers there. Brutes would finally get the weapon sets they've been begging for. Stalkers and scrappers get something they obviously voted heavily for and natural based origin characters finally get a set to call their own. Right there you'd have a mostly win situation, with only a few detractors of which there are always some.

But I'll say it again, the lack of a real street fighting set is mind-blowingly stupid. The fact you can't make a punching/invul or willpower scrapper is practically an injustice.

I'm dissapointed in the choice of dual blades. You can't tell me Street fighting would have been more difficult to animate. We already have Katana, Broadsword, and uber l33t ninja blade. I'd like a combat set that involves less kicky! choppy! and more "punching you into next week" flavor.

To quote a post of Positron's on the forums:

QuoteDual Blades was the winner of the "offensive powerset" poll. Psionic Weaponry was second, and Street Fighting was a distant third (but strangely had huge forum support in the discussions).

The winner of the "defensive powerset" poll was... Shields. And we did try to implement this for Issue 11. The only problem was to make Dual Blades as cool as possible, that left us without the time to get Shields done in time for the release. Shields is the single most complicated powerset we will ever do. The amount of animations it involves is staggering. But we DO KNOW you want it. It is on the list of things to get into the game!

Willpower was second place, and a lot simpler animation-wise. Castle had some really cool ideas for it, so it got the greenlight. (Third place was Growth, another troublesome-in-the-engine powerset).

So there you have it. I expanded upon the troubles of Shields a little at PAX, so those of you who caught me there got the full story on that, and probably shared it elsewhere in the forums that I haven't read yet.

(Underlined emphasis mine.)

I expect that's about as close to the source, and as detailed a response, as we are likely to get.  The Devs have indicated the results of their poll for first, second and third choices by public voting.  The voting mechanism itself may have been flawed, but the reported results back their choices for new powersets.

Now, I may feel that certain Devs may have told less than the whole truth at times, or said something that would only seem true for a set of definitions that only the Devs held.  But I've never been given cause to believe that a Dev would lie - that is, knowingly say something that flat-out isn't so.

If they released Street Fighting, I would immediately reroll Captain Spud and replay him to 50. Badges, merits... the lot of it, bedamned.

QuotePoor, ignorant BlueBard (oh, how I love picking on BlueBard.) reads your posts, and they fill his little head with terrible lies. You're BREAKING him, and all the others like him. You're breaking their brains.

For the record, I'm not offended.  (Which probably annoys Spud more than a little. Which gives ME a bit of perverse entertainment.  Better luck next time, Spud.)  ;)

I AM completely ignorant of 3D and game engine design, and I AM fascinated by Spud's description of what it takes.  I actually agreed with Spud (gasp!) that incorporating shields would be very very difficult, but based on a woefully incomplete knowledge of 3D graphics design and my own limited experience on the user end of various games.  I'd go so far as to say that Spud wouldn't have elaborated on the difficulty without EC's remarks, so I am indebted to you both!

As to being broken... shoot, I won't dispute that, but EC didn't do it. :D

So gentlemen, more give and take please.  I'm learning interesting things as a result.  (Just don't annoy the mods to do it, 'kay?)

What would be the difference between "Martial Arts" and "Street Fighting"?

-MJB

PUNCHING.

We no punch with the kicky choppy.

Punching, elbowing, kneeing to the head, more punching, eye gouging, pimp slapping, even more punching, etc.

Any form of fighting that doesn't come from  the  GEACPS .

Quote from: B A D on August 30, 2007, 11:23:25 AM
Punching, elbowing, kneeing to the head, more punching, eye gouging, pimp slapping, even more punching, etc.

I want...METAL FOLDING CHAIRS!!  :D

Seriously, though, I think this thread points to how maxxed out the game has become.  There's only so much they can reasonably add over the existing code.  >ahem< As Spud pointed out earlier, it's time to take stock and see CoX for what it's done.  Kind of like "The Little Engine That Could" - 3+ plus years now, in the shadow of all that fantasy stuff, and a subscription base that, depending on who you believe, has either stayed steady or ticked up over the last couple of issues. Not bad at all, and I appreciate it, too, being a first-year player, that they continue to at least try to bring new and interesting content to a game that must be a 300 lb gorilla to code these days.

My opinion is that holding out hope that any one monumental change will revolutionize the game is asking too much of this franchise.  I, for one, will try to enjoy any new tweaks they add, then see what the Marvel MMO will offer us.

That being said, I vote for street-fighting next!

...and folding chairs.

the other EC

Per second quarter results ( I9 I believe) the subscription rate has increased. And that doesn't take into account the goodness that is I10.

And COX is kinda like the "Infinity engine" games that Bioware put out in teh ninetys. I still love those.

The exact quote from their press release:

By game title, sales in the quarter for Lineage recorded $27.6 million, Lineage II $34.7 million, City of Heroes/City of Villains $6.9 million, and Guild Wars $8.9 million. Lineage and Lineage II sales dropped 16% and 2%, respectively, and City of Heroes/City of Villains increased by 7%.[/color]

Well, I'm still holding out for chainsaws as a new Brute-only powerset.

Quote from: MJB on August 30, 2007, 11:19:32 AM
What would be the difference between "Martial Arts" and "Street Fighting"?

-MJB

Its the reason I took Dark Melee when I made Krimson instead of MA.  I didn't want him to be yet another ninja.  At least with DM if you take the right powers it looks like your beating the baddies down.

BAB has had a lot to say lately in regards to dual blades, shields, and willpower animations.  Heres the latest...

Quotehmmm been thinking why shields would be so hard. they would have to rework most of the animations for all of the sets except maybe BS.

QuoteBroadsword doesn't get a free pass either. The biggest hurdle for Shields is that the default combat stance that all of our power animations are based on doesn't accommodate having a shield equipped on the left arm. When we looked into how many animations we'd need to create modified duplicates of we ended up with a list of 102 animations. Take that list and multiply it by two as everything needs a standing and a flying version. Then take chunks of that list and multiply it by 3, as some animations are unique to each of the 3 basic player rigs. By contrast, Dual Blades, which has completely new animations for every single power, has required 23 animations. Willpower, zero.

And that's with restricting certain powerset combos. We can't have Katana/Shield scrappers or Shield/Dual Blade tankers for instance. Any left wield, dual wield, or 2 handed powersets have to be restricted with a Shield set. Sets like Stone Melee that have a couple of powers that use a two handed swing for their stone mallet would have to use a different animation instead.

Lots of great info in that chunk there and answers to quite a few questions some of use had over here.

Lets see, thats 102x2=204x1.33=271.32 Assuming a good chuck is less than half, but more than a quarter... that would be 271 animations roughly.  Dual blades is 23.  Willpower is 0.  We all pretty much figured willpower had none anyways, so.  :P

Quote

Quote3 questions for you BaBs will the duel blades use the constipated Assassin Strike animation and does adding weapons like this for brutes means you guys finally fixed the redraw fury bug? More weapons for brutes to follow then?

1) Only for your character. What was his name again?
2) There is no weapon redraw/fury bug that I'm aware of. If there were the Undead Slaying Axe, Nemesis Staff, Blackwand, and any of the dozens of weapon temp powers that a Brute can pick up over their career would cause this. There's literally no difference between them and weapon powersets other than the model in your character's hands. I have a level 50 Brute and never noticed any issues with Fury and weapon powers.
3) Don't see why not. I'm not sure why Brutes didn't originally get access to any weapon sets. Maybe it's a concept thing with Fury. Maybe Posi and Castle want to gauge how successful Dual Blades is for Brutes before going through the effort of porting something like Mace over to them as well. That's not really my call, totally up to those guys.

I like BAB's humor.  Heh.  Interesting bit about the "fury bug" that some people complain about.  Never played the AT, so I'm not aware of the issue.  Some people say it is, some say it isn't.  Sounds BAB is taking a guess in assuming if it is in there, its intended.  That'll cause a mini riot ;P

Quote

QuoteUmm....heres a VERY easy way to get around your problem. BackAlleyBrawler...

Make the shields smaller and fit on the forearms. This lets people still fight normally and in normal stances, while also allowing the character to use special shield type moves.

That would be a lot simpler to do, but also exactly not what we feel most players would want from a Shield powerset. We could cheap out and just say that Shields are really bucklers or glorified bracers, but really don't think that would go over very well.

QuoteYour thinking of shields as "captain america" and thats it...instead of thinking of all the other way shields can exist.

QuoteIt's partially drawing from comics but also just a defensive complement to all of our medieval weapons. There's a big draw for people who are playing Broadsword, Axe, Mace to have a Shield defense set to couple that with.

We want to do it right, and that's just going to take some time to do.

Hmmmm... sounds like energy shields aren't being considered.  Sorry Verfall.  :(  I kinda' dug the idea in its own little way.  I hope the shields don't have an overly fantasy feel to them.  Ugh.  Ugh.  Ugh.
I still fancy the idea of a shield that would expand with sliding panels for certain animations and shrink when not in active use.  For some reason, I swear the Ascendant shields did that.  Could be imagining things though. 

Lots of great info from BAB the last 24 hours.

RTT

If I had to guess at why Brutes didn't get weapon powersets from the get-go (and, in fact, I do have to guess), I'd imagine that it's because several of the weapon sets have slow animations.  Broadsword, Axe, and Mace immediately leap to mind.  Fury depends on attacks firing off and being received.  If a Brute's attack powers have lengthier animation times compared to others, this will hamper the generation and maintaining of Fury.

Ditto per your response to overly medieval shields, RTT.  Gads, don't we have enough Barbarians, Knights, and Elves running around?  I thought this was a super hero game.  Men and women in tight spandex.

I swear I'll gag if they try to shove medieval shields down our throats.  But I suppose I might as well accept the inevitable.  {Sigh}

Sounds like Spud was right... if they try to do shields it will suck up most of their creative energy for a whole issue.  Yuck.

hmm most of what i would want to say has already been said, i would add though that just because you see an NPC doing or wearing something in game does not mean it would be any easier to code it for PC characters.
secondly I am happy to (finally!) be getting another melle set... do i wish it wasn't lethal damage and in specific sword based? yes I do but i like that they are giving me something new to play with especially as they seem to be promising some interesting play options with it. And given this i'm fairly sure scrappers are due for a flashy elemental based set next :P.
On a side note I totally agree about the infinity engine, i would still play a game based on that engine it was perfect for what it was designed for and aged remarkably well!

Quote from: MJB on August 30, 2007, 11:19:32 AM
What would be the difference between "Martial Arts" and "Street Fighting"?

-MJB

Street Fighting, at least in my mind, equals DC's Wildcat. The old one. Yeah.

Ahunno. Being one of the guys who's run over two dozen toons into respectable level ranges, I've still got a lot of builds that I want to experience. Squids still don't take my imagination and I have yet to get a controller to 30. Villains is practically a new game for me, because everything after level 35 I've only played as a sidekick.

And yet, I'm still bored. Why? Because I've played the damn thing for two years and need an alternative once in a while. Right now, it's the Tabula Rasa beta (which is frustrating), Counter Strike (which is even more frustrating) and playing guitar (#%$^@%).

The pendulum swings. I run some new shiny up 20+ levels, get bored and go do something else for three weeks. Then I do it again. And again.

To quote Shakespeare, "The fault dear Brutus lies not in our stars, but in ourselves..."

I can relate.  Alt-itis is the main reason why I don't have a single toon over level 24, though I finally have a few in their 20's.

Aside from the desire to tinker, a few other things contribute to that problem.

Some of the builds... heck, most of them... really aren't 100% satisfying to play in comparison with my concept of the character (how I want them to play).  And yeah, it's a personal problem.  But it's a personal problem that would be less problematical if I could customize toons how I want as opposed to the limitations imposed by the game.  A wider selection of powersets might help, but those seem to be slow in coming.

Levelling.  I live for getting a new power.  Enhancement slots just don't thrill me, though I appreciate the necessity.  The higher my character's level is, the slower my advancement.  Lower level characters get powers faster.  I just naturally follow the carrot.  The push to 14 to get that fast travel is one effective lure.  The push to 20 to get effective powers, capes and an extra costume slot is another.  After that?  I don't know enough to have a strong motivation.  Playing a squid isn't sufficient incentive for me to hit 50.

Endurance.  I hate-hate-hate having to plan my characters around Stamina.  I've only gotten Stamina on one character so far.  I have to give up powers I want just to be able to keep up my energy levels, and along the way I have to spend half my efforts managing endurance level and giving up slots for end reduction.  It's way past time that the devs addressed this, in my opinion.  As far as I'm concerned many of the attack and defense powers need their end costs reduced by at least 1/4.  That, or make the enemies run out of end as fast as I do.  Or make Stamina available before level 20.  If anything finally drives me away, frustration with this will be way up there on my list of reasons.

Time & Availability.  I should have done at least one TF by now, but I don't want to do it as part of a pick-up team with folks I don't know and haven't played with.  I don't usually have 3-4+ hours to kill without interruption, unless it's when everyone else with a shred of sanity is in bed.  And it's not fair to start a TF if I don't know I have the time to finish it.  I know I will do it sooner or later and then I'll be kicking myself for not doing one before.