HAWKEYE! How cool is that? Bout time Clint came back....and now he's a ninja...thats weird...but whatever he's finally back!
Wasent he swordsman... oh well. As long as Echo is back to being Echo and Hawkeye goes back to being Hawkeye.
Stupid idea.
Although Hawkeye was trained by the Swordsman (in some versions of his origin), he is not a ninja, ronin or samurai.
Why can't he just be Hawkeye?
Or the Golden Archer?
Why does he need to dress as a diguised woman?
What is the rationale, other than to generate yet another "who is Ronin" yawnfest?
I'd rather he was "dead" or inactive rather than written by Bendis as a killer who has sex with mentally ill women who are not able to give informed consent.
But that's just me.
I'm sure all the Bendis fans are positive that it's teh kewel.
Quote from: tommyboy on May 10, 2007, 03:47:17 PM
Stupid idea.
Although Hawkeye was trained by the Swordsman (in some versions of his origin), he is not a ninja, ronin or samurai.
Why can't he just be Hawkeye?
Or the Golden Archer?
Why does he need to dress as a diguised woman?
What is the rationale, other than to generate yet another "who is Ronin" yawnfest?
I'd rather he was "dead" or inactive rather than written by Bendis as a killer who has sex with mentally ill women who are not able to give informed consent.
But that's just me.
I'm sure all the Bendis fans are positive that it's teh kewel.
Actually I pretty much agree with all of this. Hawkeye has been a mess at least since Dissassembled. Still I'm glad that he is back in use, as his resurrection and subsequent inactivity was just annoying me.
:spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler:
Uhm, Ronin was just an alias for Echo to use while she was undercover in Japan. Nobody knew Ronin was a woman until she pulled off the mask to seek their help under orders from Daredevil.
Now Echo is in trouble and sent her costume back to protect Ronin's identity from being known. Hawkeye who was established since his resurrection as having a major identity crisis after being magically ripped apart and then shoved into the House Of M world and then returned mostly remembering everything that happened. He doesn't want to be Hawkeye any more and most likely knows that a young woman has already taken up his name as a member of the Young Avengers. Clint wanted to help his friends and the Ronin costume was available until he could decide where to go after returning to America. How difficult is that to understand? Besides I have an idea who might be dawning the Stars & Stripes after Punisher gets finished with his wanna-be costume.
And just a side comment here... How many folks here raved and cheered at his Ultimate Spider-Man stuff and then his temporary work on the Ultimate X-Men title but once he moved into the 616 universe and jumped on with Quesada's band wagon to reinvent the Marvel Universe he became enemy number one with a bullet. Just because he is working on all of the main story lines lately and pumps out comics left and right like he was half a cyborg.
- CrimsonQuill
Quote from: crimsonquill on May 10, 2007, 04:34:39 PM
:spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler:
Uhm, Ronin was just an alias for Echo to use while she was undercover in Japan. Nobody knew Ronin was a woman until she pulled off the mask to seek their help under orders from Daredevil.
Now Echo is in trouble and sent her costume back to protect Ronin's identity from being known. Hawkeye who was established since his resurrection as having a major identity crisis after being magically ripped apart and then shoved into the House Of M world and then returned mostly remembering everything that happened. He doesn't want to be Hawkeye any more and most likely knows that a young woman has already taken up his name as a member of the Young Avengers. Clint wanted to help his friends and the Ronin costume was available until he could decide where to go after returning to America. How difficult is that to understand?
And just a side comment here... How many folks here raved and cheered at his Ultimate Spider-Man stuff and then his temporary work on the Ultimate X-Men title but once he moved into the 616 universe and jumped on with Quesada's band wagon to reinvent the Marvel Universe he became enemy number one with a bullet. Just because he is working on all of the main story lines lately and pumps out comics left and right like he was half a cyborg.
- CrimsonQuill
1. Why was Echo disguised as Ronin anyway? Echo was already her "secret identity", and nobody in Japan knew who she was anyway, so a disguise of her disguise was rather stupid. The whole conceit was entirely to generate a publicity gimmick with no redeeming features whatsoever, no logic, and an actual minus amount of interest.
2. Echo was in her Ronin costume when captured, so sending a second costume away hardly protects the Ronin identity, does it?
3. Why does Hawkeye have a "major identity crisis"? Nobody else who was in House of M does. Various other people were either dead or alive in it but only Clint has the identity crisis? Why does he not want to be Hawkeye anymore? It's not enough to say "he doesn't want to be Hawkeye he wants to be Ronin", because that is also just stupid. It's incredibly hard to understand because it's stupid, boring, contrived, shallow and dull.
4. Ultimate Spider-Man was a padded retelling of pre-existing stories as six issues rather than one issue, with badly redesigned characters set in "the present", it's probably the single most over-rated comic there has ever been as without the original comics it's entirely dependant on there would literally be nothing there but about fifty thousand pages of bendis' excruciatingly tedious "dialogue" which is as "realistic" as a man sticking to walls. His Ultimate Xmen work is even worse, as it doesn't even have Stan Lee and Steve Ditko's imagination to depend on.
Quote from: crimsonquill on May 10, 2007, 04:34:39 PM
And just a side comment here... How many folks here raved and cheered at his Ultimate Spider-Man stuff and then his temporary work on the Ultimate X-Men title but once he moved into the 616 universe and jumped on with Quesada's band wagon to reinvent the Marvel Universe he became enemy number one with a bullet. Just because he is working on all of the main story lines lately and pumps out comics left and right like he was half a cyborg.
- CrimsonQuill
I was a big fan of Ultimate Spider-Man until about the Venom arc, by that point I just found things way too drawn out. I still somewhat enjoy it, but haven't read it regularly for a long time. The point where I started to 'hate' Bendis was Avengers Disassembled. Disassembled was one of the worst comics I ever bought.
Generally, I think the concept of Marvel's Ronin just came out of bad '80s movies and historical misinformation where ninjas were only allowed to be males. Heck even soldiers of Asian/Japanese decent were generally males with the occasional stories of females dressing as males to fight for their familes when no other males were alive because they were killed in battle previously. I think even the story of Mulan fits this theme as well. Mark Miller's Daredevil stories always had male Hand ninjas and even the Foot of TMNT fame had only male members until recently with Karai taking over the clan.
Echo was established as a fighter who could mimic the fighting style of those she watches and Daredevil thought that she would work well as a spy in the Hand organization. Since Elektra has been the single known female for being acceppted into the group it would make sense to insert an alias that was male to be allowed into a more male dominated organization. Besides if Ronin was forced to kill a member of the higher circle of Hand membership she could just ditch the costume and return to her old life as Echo without all of the clan hunting her down. Of course Echo is discovered but is still able to hide her Ronin costume and protect that identity. Thus it could be passed on to Clint for the duration of the story arc. Sure Ronin has been used as a "mystery character" for everyone to speculate on and even been used as an alias for a Ultimate universe character as well (but the identity was revealed in the very same issue he appeared in).
- CrimsonQuill
Quote from: crimsonquill on May 10, 2007, 08:28:21 PM
Echo was established as a fighter who could mimic the fighting style of those she watches and Daredevil thought that she would work well as a spy in the Hand organization. Since Elektra has been the single known female for being acceppted into the group it would make sense to insert an alias that was male to be allowed into a more male dominated organization. Besides if Ronin was forced to kill a member of the higher circle of Hand membership she could just ditch the costume and return to her old life as Echo without all of the clan hunting her down. Of course Echo is discovered but is still able to hide her Ronin costume and protect that identity. Thus it could be passed on to Clint for the duration of the story arc. Sure Ronin has been used as a "mystery character" for everyone to speculate on and even been used as an alias for a Ultimate universe character as well (but the identity was revealed in the very same issue he appeared in).
- CrimsonQuill
Why would you have to be disguised as a man to spy on the Hand? She wasn't joining them, she was spying on them. In NA#27 she gets more information as her undisguised female self from the Yakuza than as Ronin, precisely because women are regarded as unimportant in Yakuza culture, so your idea that she has to dress as Ronin to spy on the Hand makes no sense at all. Also the idea that the Ronin costume was in case she killed a member of the Hand is just bizarre. She already HAD a disguise, as Echo. That's the whole POINT of a secret identity. You don't need a second secret identity in case anyone finds out what your first secret identity did. It's stupid.
And no, you are wrong again about "Echo is discovered but is still able to hide her Ronin costume and protect that identity". In NA#27 Elektra defeats Echo, in her Ronin costume, and unmasks her. So the identity is NOT protected. It's discovered and they know EXACTLY who she is, too, proving it to be useless.
No matter how much you try, you will never be able to make any sense of Ronin, because there is none. It is/was/will be a gimmick to generate interest in a comic, it is not a story, or a rational development in the story of any given character. It's a dumb gimmick from a "writer" who cannot generate interest by telling stories, because he has none to tell, just lots of stand around yakking punctuated by fights.
And let's just ask ourselves why Hawkeye, who has fought alongside Spider-man, Wolverine, Spiderwoman, PowerMan and Iron Fist etc more than once would ask the "yo Cage do they always talk this much?" line in NA#27? He must be "protecting the Ronin Identity" too, right? Or it's just a bad writer who wants to spin out his pathetic little guessing-game gimmick for a few more issues, even if it puts incomprehensible rubbish in the mouths of the "characters".
Quote from: tommyboy on May 11, 2007, 04:17:19 AM
And let's just ask ourselves why Hawkeye, who has fought alongside Spider-man, Wolverine, Spiderwoman, PowerMan and Iron Fist etc more than once would ask the "yo Cage do they always talk this much?" line in NA#27? He must be "protecting the Ronin Identity" too, right? Or it's just a bad writer who wants to spin out his pathetic little guessing-game gimmick for a few more issues, even if it puts incomprehensible rubbish in the mouths of the "characters".
Bendis' writing on New Avengers, especially recently in post-Civil War, has been extremely horrible so I can agree with you there. And since he is leaving the Ultimate titles to focus on Quesada's pet projects it's pretty certain that I can avoid most of his recent writing by the end of the year. Having flashbacks ala LOST in the middle of a story which takes place just days after Civil War just to explain what the now Secret Avengers are doing in Japan is already giving me a uber headache.
Not to mension that uber mess that Mighty Avengers has become... I liked the idea of Ultron finally getting a makeover but this whole virus-turned-me-into-a-female-android turned me off in the first few issues.
Okay, I admit that you might be getting me to see the light - Tommy... I still like his Ultimate stuff but taking a second look at his other works is starting to show the flaws. :huh: Never thought I'd ever say that.
- CrimsonQuill
Quote from: crimsonquill on May 11, 2007, 04:56:05 AM
Okay, I admit that you might be getting me to see the light - Tommy... I still like his Ultimate stuff but taking a second look at his other works is starting to show the flaws. :huh: Never thought I'd ever say that.
- CrimsonQuill
Yeeessssss.....coomme to the darrrkk ssside.....hssss..... :ph34r:
Quote from: lugaru on May 10, 2007, 03:10:48 PM
Wasent he swordsman... oh well. As long as Echo is back to being Echo and Hawkeye goes back to being Hawkeye.
If you're referring to the Swordsman that was in the pre-CW Thunderbolts, it turns out that was Andreas Strucker, formerly known (along with his now deceased sister) as Fenris.
Anyway, I agree, I hope Clint goes back to being a bowman quickly. Ninjas are a dime a dozen IMHO. :P
Has anyone have any news update on Hawkeye being Ronin? I really don't think it suits him. I can't imagine how he can be a ronin hero. Did he somehow became a sword specialist or what?Weird. Why doesn't he just stick to what he is good at.Hmmm.If he likes the Ronin costume, he could still wear it and use his trademark bow and arrows. :P But then i read this at this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkeye_%28comics%29
"Clint Barton returns to speak with Dr. Strange, meets the New Avengers, and ends up donning the Ronin costume to assist them, accompanying the team to Japan to rescue Echo (Who later officially hands the Ronin costume and identity over to Barton). The New Avengers are driven by two goals; to save people "the way [they] want to", and to investigate the reason why the world has been turned upside-down recently. After a confrontation with Elektra and the Hand to rescue Echo, the team discover that Elektra had been replaced with a Skrull some indeterminant time ago, but whether more prominent figures in the Marvel Universe have been replaced with Skrulls by this point is unclear.
This revelation, plus hints from writer Bendis, has led to speculation about the next 'big' event, and who else could be a Skrull. In a question about who could possibly be a Skrull, Bendis hinted "Anyone with a wobbly resurrection is suspect." This prompted someone to ask about the former Hawkeye and current Ronin, Clint Barton, who has been recently resurrected. Bendis said he's a prime suspect to be a Skrull."
Oh man! Not a Skrull please. :doh:
I'll come out and tell you right now who the skrull is... ITS BENDIS.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: lugaru on September 08, 2007, 09:57:17 PM
I'll come out and tell you right now who the skrull is... ITS BENDIS.
:rolleyes:
Hmmmm...I think both he and Joke Q are Skrulls, out to ruin Marvel.
Dana
Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on September 09, 2007, 07:08:34 AM
Hmmmm...I think both he and Joke Q are Skrulls, out to ruin Marvel.
Dana
Quesada and Bendis are Skrulls? I thought they were simply the scions (separated at birth...literally, being Siamese twins) of Forbush Man and Lucrezia Borgia, no?
ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and The Prat in the Hat
If it doesn't make sense that Hawkeye is Ronin consider:
A ronin is as samurai without a master. The master would be the one person that the samurai respects most.
Hawkeye has returned, on the tail-end of Captain America's death. There's not a man in the avengers proper that Hawkeye respected more.
Quote from: Sword on September 09, 2007, 12:57:30 PM
If it doesn't make sense that Hawkeye is Ronin consider:
A ronin is as samurai without a master. The master would be the one person that the samurai respects most.
Hawkeye has returned, on the tail-end of Captain America's death. There's not a man in the avengers proper that Hawkeye respected more.
*sigh*
Was Clint Barton a Samurai?
Was he employed by, and indentured to, Captain America?
No, and no.
They were friends, either of whom could have been chairman of the Avenges and therefore the other's "boss".
So it's still incredibly stupid.
And dull.
And boring.
That's typical Bendis. And while I'm impressed with Sword's potential explanation, such as it is, the fact remains Hawkeye is the *second* Ronin to appear in New Avengers. The first was Daredevil character Echo. Is she a wandering adventurer who's lost her master? Not that I know of, but I really don't the character so anyone can feel free to chime in if they know more than I do.
Fact is this: it seems a lot of people, a LOT of people, hate B for what he's done to the Avengers, or Marvel in general if you prefir. Really, I just gotta say: stop being surprised. Stop expecting it to make sense. Simply remember Avengers Dissasembled. This is pretty much the same kinda stuff. I used to LOVE ol' Hawkeye. Still do. But B showed from almost the beginning that he can't write Clint Barton to save his life, and thus it doesn't matter than he's back, cuz he's only back in that corner of Marvel I occasionally call the "Bendis-verse". B took Hawkeye away from the writers who loved writing him (and wrote him better), and from the fans that loved him. And he's done it again. I don't think Hawkeye's made a single present day, in-continuity, 616 apperance post Hawkeye-as-Ronin, outside of being Ronin in New Avengers.
Course, I havn't actually READ the issues. But I don't expect much. It's not like B has changed his writing style completely since he started writing for Marvel.
Of course, this is all my opinion. Y'rall welcome to disagree.
Just an aside, but could Ronin have been created by Marvel in order to "reserve" that name for any licensing and future publications from other publishers?
kinda the same way how they created the Captain Marvel character when the Shazam stuff was being worked out with Fawcett and DC.
Frank Miller's work has been getting the movie treatment recently and i wouldn't be surprised if Ronin was going to be his next project. Perhaps Marvel creating this character now is a way to get a foothold into any licensing deals or what-have you, especially since manga is becoming such a popular art form in America.