Do you think that Irrational will ever produce another sequel to Freedom Force? Of course we all really want to believe they will... But rumors on the net suggest that this is now unlikely. And if they ever do produce a Freedom Force 3, I suspect we will have to wait several years.
I read how Irrational Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrational_Games) was aquired in 2006 by Take-Two Interactive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take-Two). So it looks like now all new games by Irrational will be published under the "2K Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_Games)" label.
And at least for now all the forums over at Irrational have been taken down! They said they wanted a website that does not "completely suck" and so they've taken down their "lackluster forums" until they have "a decent plan to bring them back."
(See: http://www.freedomfans.com/forums/ (http://www.freedomfans.com/forums/))
I've also read that Irrational is currently hard at work on developing BioShock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock), which is due to be released in August of 2007. This has been described as a "spiritual successor" to the System Shock series. From their website Irrational announced "We’re working on the sequel to one of the best loved PC franchises of all time." (This is mentioned here (http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=12222668).)
However, it looks they're using the name "BioShock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock)" because someone else owns the actual rights to "System Shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock)". Like this post (http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=12222680) says "EA owns that. And according to expert reporting by Remo, they are actually working on System Shock 3."
Also, even though it hasn't yet been officially announced, it looks like Irrational will next produce a sequel to the X-Com series. Atari had said that they would not produce another X-Com. However, Atari was in dire financial straights and threatened by Infogrames (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infogrames) to do something, so Atari sold some of their intellectual rights. Thus in 2005 the rights to the X-COM series was sold (http://assignments.uspto.gov/assignments/q?db=tm&reel=3102&frame=0242) to Take-Two.
Here are two articles that provide evidence of an X-Com sequel as Irrational's next project:
Rumor: Irrational Games Working on X-Com Sequel (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3157350) - The evidence seems convincing enough
Irrational Games Developing X-COM Title? (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/45797)
What does that have to do with the future of Freedom Force? I think when we take all these things into consideration, the prospects for FF3 don't look very good:
* Irrational Games was aquired by Take-Two
* All the forums on irrationalgames.com have been taken down
* Irrational is hard at work to finish BioShock by August
* The next big project for Irrational is likely to be another X-Com
* New games by Take-Two subsidaries will be released under the "2K Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_Games)" label
Freedom Force may be a success in terms of real-time strategy games. And it does have a huge fan base. But Irrational and other Take-Two subsidiaries have had numerous other successful games. And it looks like they have plenty of projects and franchises to keep them busy for a decade or more.
Anyway, this was just what my research turned up and I want to be realistic. I'm still holding hope that the brilliant folks over at Irrational still feels a deep fondness of Freedom Force and will endeavor to continue the line. But I'm not holding my breath.
:ff:
:ffvstr:
FF was a labor of love for the folks at Irrational, but in my opinion, based on the evidence and my own experience in the biz, "It's dead Jim".
---Renegade
FWIW: System Shock 1 was created by Looking Glass, System Shock 2 was developped by IG (which include/included a number of former LG employees) for LG and EA. So EA holds the © and ™, which is why IG uses a somewhat different name and setup.
The probability of seeing a new FF game in the next couple of years is IMO very dim, especially in light of Take-Two recent problems, and the consequent decisionof their new board to review all project currentlly in the works.
With that said, that X-Com rumour is actually the best FF-news I've heard in a looong while! Apart from being a great game in itself, X-Com is also quite similar to FF in many aspects. And let us not forget that the initial plan for FF2, before FFvsTTR, was to make FF more X-Com-like.
At the very least, even if there's no FF in the pipeline, and IG's X-Com might be relatively easily moddable into an FF game. :)
Ken was asked a while ago in an interview about Bioshock about the possiblility of another FF and he pretty much said that it was not likely ever to happen because of poor sales of FFvTTR.
As for FF's huge fan base, what huge fan base? Seriously, there might be a couple hundred of us online and maybe a couple thousand others.
Compare that to Neverwinter Nights 1, which has tens of thousands of mods and thousands of active online players. Compare that to Civilization III and IV, which also have an online community in the thousands. Compare that to Starcraft, which is still selling copies and mods are still being made with an online community still in the thousands.
Let's face it, we may be a dedicated community, but we aren't very big. There isn't a huge fan base and never was. A decent sized fan base, yes. FF never was a best seller, but sold well enough to be worth a sequel. But huge fan base? Never existed.
Even then Cat, a couple a hundred online and a couple of thousand off probs isn't accurate. My guess is that the number of people that still play FF regularly is most likely below 1000 :(
A thousand active community members is not too bad for a six-year old game + one expansion pack.
Not good enough for a sequel, but not bad.
No, it's not bad, but it's hardly the "huge fan base" mentioned by life_matrix, and it doesn't hold a candle other old games like Star Craft and Neverwinter Nights.
The best 'sequel' to freedom force is the host of user created mods - hell, Strangers is longer than FFVTTR. Now, granted, the user made mods are not 'professional content' (tho Dr Mike's stuff might as well be!) but showing some support to the folks who continue to churn out mods, skins and meshes etc is the best way to get 'sequels' to the game.
I agree with Cat about the size of the fan base - worse some of the maybe 1000 or so folks are not really engaged. They pop in, take advantage of mods, skins and that sort of thing and have nothing to contribute. That isn't 'wrong' or anything, but it really makes it hard to measure the support for the game. At the end of the day, a few hundred people 'care' the rest stop in from time to time.
With the editors and the preexisting storylines, a sequel to FF and FFVTTR is quite possible. Hopefully a group of fans will have the time, energy and resources some day to continue the story for us all. If not, supprt the work of the community members thus far and enjoy. There is plenty of stuff out there...
Well, just to add on to what was already stated, FF doesn't have a particularly huge fanbase and it gets smaller on FR everyday and we're supposed to be the most dedicated fanboard. Heck, the people that frequented FFans prolly don't come here and have probably moved on since they may believe IG gave up on the game. Anyway, point is...even the number of creators and their (our?) output have decreased quite a bit compared to last year (and by A LOT compared to 2-4 years ago) and I've been noticing more and more posts about loss of motivation yet I've seen less and less posts by community members trying to support and lift up their fellow man. Sometimes it just seems that certain community members are supported more than others which is kinda a turn off.
*note* This is not an attack...just an opinion based on observations and other complaints/conversations/opinions
My personal take is: Who cares? Yes, FF has been good to us, and it is still the only truly modable superhero game out there, which is why we still play it. But can anyone honestly say that if we could eaisily rip apart something like MUA and eaisily add our own characters, maps, and powers, that a single one of us would prefer FF? I know this will come off as cold, but really, FF is no more than the superhero version of "The Sims." Point at enemy, pick attack, and wait for something to happen.
At this point? FF is dead, whether there's a sequel or not. But given the sucess of games like City of Heroes and MUA, it's only a matter of time before we see something BETTER.
Quote from: Previsionary on April 24, 2007, 02:37:55 PM
. Sometimes it just seems that certain community members are supported more than others which is kinda a turn off.
Amen
Quote from: Tomato on April 24, 2007, 04:16:33 PM
My personal take is: Who cares? Yes, FF has been good to us, and it is still the only truly modable superhero game out there, which is why we still play it. But can anyone honestly say that if we could eaisily rip apart something like MUA and eaisily add our own characters, maps, and powers, that a single one of us would prefer FF? I know this will come off as cold, but really, FF is no more than the superhero version of "The Sims." Point at enemy, pick attack, and wait for something to happen.
At this point? FF is dead, whether there's a sequel or not. But given the sucess of games like City of Heroes and MUA, it's only a matter of time before we see something BETTER.
I beg to differ. We're not still playing FF simply because it's a superhero game, we're playing it because it's done very well within its specific context. Otherwise, all the Diablo/Warcraft/Quake/Civilisation/Whatever clones would be successful... Give good game designers some credit. ;) And personally, I'm more interested in some of the FF characters than in many of the mainstream superheroes.
this isn't really a freedom force post, it's more of a freedom reborn; a lot of us are still here, not because of the game itself, but the community. and i think it's the community that brings ppl back.
Quote from: bearded on April 24, 2007, 11:29:46 PM
this isn't really a freedom force post, it's more of a freedom reborn; a lot of us are still here, not because of the game itself, but the community. and i think it's the community that brings ppl back.
no doubt ... i haven't even started the game up in a couple of years. I stick around because I am amazed at the things you people can do. I try to skin once in awhile, but when I look at the skins, meshes, mods, fx, etc. I just get amazed and download for a possible future game. Plus I love the character tool. That is where I get my hours of entertainment. Seeing the characters i developed in 3d ... woot!
I have always loved the idea of a superhero. I love seeing others' ideas too ... so I stick around.
I haven't played Freedom Force in years. I don't own FFvsTTR.
From what we have all seen it would be a safe bet to call the future of Freedom Force more than a little grim... it's dead.
But then again that is my opinion and I could be wrong.
-MJB
really, the only thing slowing me down is that stupid sp2 problem. i have patch 1.3, but it's not perfect. character tool crashes randomly, and in ffedit, i can't use the level editor, and the sounds tab crashes ffedit.
things like this is what's really bad for the future of :ff:. not speaking of sequels, but merely gaining new ppl, or even keeping old ones.
personally i would ditch sp2, if i could figure out how.
As I see it, it's either a dead franchise, or it's not.
So let's look at those possibilities.
First: "It's worse than that, it's dead, Jim".
There have been no announcements regarding any plans for future games, indeed, what little has been said strongly indicates that there wont be any. FFV3R didn't sell amazingly well, and IG were bought out by a bigger company that now has its own troubles. Although superhero games and films are more mainstream and popular than ever, the Silver Age feel of FF isn't, and isn't likely to be. This means that the community will continue to exist, but to shrink, and this is the most likely future. At some point the community will probably shrink to a tipping point where FR or other sites wont be worth sustaining.
Second; "It's alive I tell you! Alive!".
Clearly FF and FFV3R were labours of love. Ken and the other staffers made a great game, and basically created this community by continuing to support it after release at the official forums. I know some people feel that the community somehow made the game, and others that IG never supported the community either enough, or even at all. But you are all wrong. So, at some point they may want to release a third game.
What form might it take? Chances are, a completely new game engine, meaning no backwards compatibility. That's both a good and a bad thing. Bad because those of us with thousands of meshes and skins will perhaps feel hard done by. Good in that not everything will already have been done, and done well enough to discourage creativity. Lots of us no longer make content simply because we have already made all the characters we want made, or sometimes because others have made them so well theres a lot less point in redoing them.
When I started meshing for FF, I was in the shadow of Beyonder, Grenadier, Vertex, Renegade, Valandar, TexasJack and all the others. Often I'd feel I ought to stick with minor obscure characters because if you already had Beyonders perfect Thor, or Grenadier's Cap, or Renegades GLs, what was the point of me making my versions? When I started meshing for MUA, nobody else had done any meshes at all, so I could make whoever I wanted, be they popular or obscure, and know that as the only versions available, they would get used and appreciated. It made me feel a lot more like making meshes for MUA, whereas here at FR I was getting "you could do better" type responses to my work, or "you appear to have reused parts of one of your other meshes", which frankly is neither helpful nor encouraging.
So my point? If we are reset back to zero meshes and skins by a new game with a new engine, there will be more material produced than there was for FFV3R, where we were able to port over 70-90% of the old meshes, and therefore didn't need to start over.
And if they DO do a third installment, it might catch the wave of popularity that has seen lots of Superhero Movie franchises do very nicely, and might actually become a best seller..or maybe they could catch a break and get a Marvel or DC licence.
Thirdly;
The presence of NifSkope, of EZscript and FFX mean that for a fair time the community can wxperience a bit of a renaissance, as stuff that was hard or impossible becomes do-able, and people can finally "create" their own meshes and Mods without having to own 3dsMax or learn Python. This should mean that for the next year or so at least the community will continue to be active, whether the FF franchise is alive or dead.
Good post TommyBoy. You mesh for MUA, meaning Marvel Ultimate Alliance? Or..?
Anyway, I agree with Epimethee and find that the Freedom Force characters are just as interesting, if not more interesting than Marvel characters.
I'd like to see them create a new Freedom Force game that did things differently. Maybe a more fast-paced game much like Marvel Ultimate Alliance with better online play would help the franchise. We'll always have our thousands upon thousands of character skins and meshes for the old game. A new direction would be welcome, especially since there isn't much more that can be done with the current engine.
I remember being fascinated by Freedom Force during its first years. I'm sure everyone here was. FFvsTR was a great game with a great story. However, it didn't bring anything new to the table past the new campaign. Mesh conversion became a confusing and buggy process. Transfering old content to the new game was a hassle. It just wasn't worth it after a while, and I lost interest. Lately things have been better, but FFvsTR never received the push the FF did. It never got off the ground, really.
I truly miss the days of just having Freedom Force and an entire community creating for one game, building upon a vast collection of content years in the making. A new game is needed, one that is completely different. Its the only way to kickstart things again.
Quote from: tommyboy on April 25, 2007, 08:02:36 AM
When I started meshing for FF, I was in the shadow of Beyonder, Grenadier, Vertex, Renegade, Valandar, TexasJack and all the others. Often I'd feel I ought to stick with minor obscure characters because if you already had Beyonders perfect Thor, or Grenadier's Cap, or Renegades GLs, what was the point of me making my versions? When I started meshing for MUA, nobody else had done any meshes at all, so I could make whoever I wanted, be they popular or obscure, and know that as the only versions available, they would get used and appreciated. It made me feel a lot more like making meshes for MUA, whereas here at FR I was getting "you could do better" type responses to my work, or "you appear to have reused parts of one of your other meshes", which frankly is neither helpful nor encouraging.
meh, i'm gonna get flak for this but i'm beyond caring because I feel it needs to be said...
that sounds to me, like a cop out, you were getting messages that said "you can do better" because "you CAN do better"
the fact you went for quantity over quality always irked me but meh, not my place to tell you how to spend your time, and this is not the place for me to go into my gripes.
either way, what bugs me about what you've said there is basicly your saying:
"the standards people expect at FR are too high, i'll go to MUA where they'll take whatever they're given"
yes paraphrased, but thats how I read it, and from talking to people i'm not the only one who got that impression.
*let the Syn hating commence*
Quote from: UnfluffyBunny on April 25, 2007, 03:51:41 PM
Quote from: tommyboy on April 25, 2007, 08:02:36 AM
When I started meshing for FF, I was in the shadow of Beyonder, Grenadier, Vertex, Renegade, Valandar, TexasJack and all the others. Often I'd feel I ought to stick with minor obscure characters because if you already had Beyonders perfect Thor, or Grenadier's Cap, or Renegades GLs, what was the point of me making my versions? When I started meshing for MUA, nobody else had done any meshes at all, so I could make whoever I wanted, be they popular or obscure, and know that as the only versions available, they would get used and appreciated. It made me feel a lot more like making meshes for MUA, whereas here at FR I was getting "you could do better" type responses to my work, or "you appear to have reused parts of one of your other meshes", which frankly is neither helpful nor encouraging.
meh, i'm gonna get flak for this but i'm beyond caring because I feel it needs to be said...
that sounds to me, like a cop out, you were getting messages that said "you can do better" because "you CAN do better"
the fact you went for quantity over quality always irked me but meh, not my place to tell you how to spend your time, and this is not the place for me to go into my gripes.
either way, what bugs me about what you've said there is basicly your saying:
"the standards people expect at FR are too high, i'll go to MUA where they'll take whatever they're given"
yes paraphrased, but thats how I read it, and from talking to people i'm not the only one who got that impression.
*let the Syn hating commence*
And people asked me why I stopped making meshes for FF...
Well, this is why.
Please don't "paraphrase" for me again, Syn.
because you dont like people telling you the truth? you just want to be appreciated?
sure thing, dont worry I have no intentions on taking the time with you anymore, Tommy.
Quote from: UnfluffyBunny on April 25, 2007, 05:01:16 PM
because you dont like people telling you the truth? you just want to be appreciated?
sure thing, dont worry I have no intentions on taking the time with you anymore, Tommy.
No, because I can speak for myself.
I said what I meant, however you read it.
The excitement of MUA meshing was not/is not that people had lower standards than here, they don't. I've been asked to change or improve my meshes more there than here, despite having made hundreds here and only a couple of dozen there.
The excitement is the challenge of a new medium, of having to learn new techniques, or how to do the same things in a different way.
Of having to work out for myself every stage of making meshes for a game engine nobody had made any meshes for (except the games developers), without any art documentation, without any Max files or contact with the developers, or being able to ask Beyonder or Renegade or anyone else how to do it.
And I did that.
And continue to work to improve my meshes here and there, maybe not in the same way as you, maybe not as well as you.
I have a great deal of admiration for your artistic skills, but clearly you have some sort of problem both with my work and with me personally.
:unsure:
But..I..like..Tommyboy's meshes. :cool:
Quote from: tommyboy on April 25, 2007, 08:02:36 AM
(snip)...I was getting "you could do better" type responses to my work, or "you appear to have reused parts of one of your other meshes", which frankly is neither helpful nor encouraging.
I'm just gonna throw this out there. I'm thinking this was aimed at a comment I made ages ago (4-6 months ago) that was my opinion on a singular mesh that was way more expanded than that. If it isn't, then I'm glad to be mistakened, if it is...*shrugs*. Either way, that comment struck me as odd because most of everyone that posted in your thread *praised* you and hoped you did more meshes...so...huh? Also, it's kinda odd that you'd say that and then say:
Quote from: tommyboyI've been asked to change or improve my meshes more there than here, despite having made hundreds here and only a couple of dozen there.
Anyway, best of luck to you in MUA, I guess?
Back on topic, what was said earlier about the "freshness" of ffvttr is pretty much true, imo. There was barely a buzz in the creation of FFVTTR content until recently and even now there seems to be more FF1 players/content users. It's just once FFVTTR came out, so many hopes were dashed because there was barely anything new introduced at all...and most of everything that was new was basically panned by the players (ignoring scripting and such). Personally, I was hoping for a better online experience or more power options...but eh.
I think that's stupendously unfair Syn, I've always felt that if one of the content creators here was so kind as to fill a request we should all be bloody well thankful, it's not like they're getting paid for it. Tommyboy was a godsend for a great many of us, and if to do that not every mesh got his single-minded attention, I don't think that's such a bad trade-off. I've seen his best work, and it really is great, but even the stuff that he simply slaps together is pretty darn good, and it makes someone happy. If he feels like he spent enough time on it, who are we to tell him otherwise? Obviously he spent as much time on the project as it was worth to him, and since he's the one making, I'd say that's what matters. Not every story I write gets my undivided attention, but those that I care about most do, the rest are functional, even if they aren't great literature, and that suits me, which is what matters since I'm the one who has to pass judgement on it.
That being said, I do believe that you took that one person's comment too much to heart Tommy, most of the community love your work, and were quite happy with whatever you put out.
I'm very hesitant to press post on this, as I try my very best not to step on the toes of the true heroes of this community, and I very well may offend to of the greats right here, but I feel like this should be said. Please take my comments in the spirit with which they are given, and that is one that sincerely hopes we can put this behind us and devote our energies back to the game we all love.
It wasn't my intention to derail this thread, or to dredge up old issues.
So I won't comment further on that.
Quote from: Previsionary on April 25, 2007, 05:49:19 PM
Back on topic, what was said earlier about the "freshness" of ffvttr is pretty much true, imo. There was barely a buzz in the creation of FFVTTR content until recently and even now there seems to be more FF1 players/content users. It's just once FFVTTR came out, so many hopes were dashed because there was barely anything new introduced at all...and most of everything that was new was basically panned by the players (ignoring scripting and such). Personally, I was hoping for a better online experience or more power options...but eh.
I think it was a case of them being damned if they made FFV3R backwards compatible (not enough new in the game) and damned if they made it all-new but with no backward compatibility (we cant use our old meshes and skins).
I'd hope that enough time has now passed that a genuinely New FF game could come out and be judged on it's own merits, without being "tied to" the old engine.
Better online/multiplay might well be the best way to go should they try again, as these were one thing both FF games lacked, really.
Of course I still lean towards them not being able to do another as things stand.
But the game itself is pretty much a model for how-to make a fun, customizable game. Add some basic modelling/skinning functionality, a touch of EZ-script or module based mod making and someone could still make a Better Mousetrap.
I concede to that Benton, you bring up a very good point, so good infact, I brought it up myself over 2 hours ago...
Quote from: UnfluffyBunny on April 25, 2007, 03:51:41 PM
the fact you went for quantity over quality always irked me but meh, not my place to tell you how to spend your time, and this is not the place for me to go into my gripes.
sorry to be blunt in this post, but i'd hardly call anything I have posted tonight unfair.
me and Tommy merely have different priorities.
And no Tommy, I have nothing against you personally, merely anytime anyone says anything you dont want to hear you take it as an attack, in my time here i've confronted many people about the way they go about their works and about pushing themself further (just ask toxic J how many times I badgered him about his face work), those who are open to furthering themselves I give support, those who arent I leave to their own devices.
The entire issue of 'quantity vs. quality' is another issue entirely. I'd love to see it explored more fully, but this probably isn't the topic to do it in.
As for Freedom Force... I loved it while it lasted and that game gave me a circle of friends that I wouldn't trade the world for. However, for many other long standing members of the community, Freedom Force has been dead for quite a while.
The community is what's important. We've simply outgrown the aging game that brought us together.
Well I don't know about everyone, but I certainly haven't outgrown it, and although FFvTTR's faults grieve me greatly, I still think there is almost unlimited potential there. As long as the FFX gang continues to push its boundaries, the game will be forever new to me. Also, I now have the posibility at my fingertips to tell a life time of stories that have been swirling around inside my head since I got back into comics. There may be no-one left to enjoy them by the time I finish them (if I ever do), but maybe my kids and grandkids can enjoy them. I can't really see retiring FF any time soon. Even the original game still has life in it for me, and as a matter of fact I was just recently contemplating firing up The Strangers again. People are still producing content, perhaps not at the feverish pace once achieved (heaven knows my own project is taking much longer than I had hoped) but it's still happening, and I think it's still very exciting.
The community may be important but are these the first cracks?
I have my own views on this issue but I won't say them here, we don't need a full blown arguement :)
In terms of FF I've not outgrown it either, although I really want to finish my mod it's not my top priority so in a sense I have stopped playing. the last FF thing I did was play conduit's Matrix mod
I can't speak for everyone who's played and made content for the game, but for me, the main appeal of Freedom Force was the ability to re-create some of my favourite superheroes from the funnybooks (as well as characters of my own making) and view them in CTool. I played through the original campaign a grand total of two times, had three aborted attempts at playing DrMike2000's Strangers Mod, and basically just poked around the opening missions of the major mods released at the height of the community's popularity. I toyed around with scripting, but it was mostly out of curiosity than anything else.
Once I'd created all the characters I cared to do, the novelty of the game pretty much wore off. I tried getting into FFv3R (although I waited until it was selling for $10 to get it) but the setting and the new characters just weren't to my liking and didn't even play through the whole thing. By then it was clear to me that it wasn't the gameplay aspect that got me hooked on FF, but the creative opportunity it provided. Since the itch to create had been sufficiently scratched with the time I spent on the first game, I just didn't have any real reason to keep up with FFv3R.
Still, it's very heartening to see that there are still people who are creating new skins, meshes, mods, and whatnot for the FF community.
I still have not outgrown FF in any shape or form... otherwise I wouldn't be working on my VPMAX voice packs. I just restarted converting voices from MUA (Marvel Ultimate Alliance) and have plans on getting more .wavs taken from Destroy All Humans 1 & 2 now that I have all these new sound tools to play with.
I finished the original FF game a year or so ago.. and only have FFvsT3R installed on my new PC (Thanks to Windows XP SP2 making this the only version I can play flawlessly) just to play endless Rumble Room conflicts with all of the characters I have in my personal collection. And I still have yet to learn skoping and skinning just so I can make all of the characters from my "Gothic Babes In Zombieland" prototype comic that I wrote back in 2002. So, I welcome any future superhero games from Irrational as long as it has a great hero creator and FREE online multiplayer (hence why I can't afford to play CoX all the time). And I still can't figure why CoX doesn't have a single player mode just to play offline for trying out characters you make. :unsure:
- CrimsonQuill
I'm starting to approach Lunarman's position, where I create more than I play, but I, too, still enjoy firing up the game, especially now with EZ Script.
I think that, for the new and scriptually(?) challenged, the EZ Script freeroam offers the most long-term potential because you can still do traditional skirmishes yet also maintain the role-playing aspect of the game. Perhaps it's time to repeat Renegade's call for an EZ Script library/exchange?
JM
Me, I love playing the game. Of course, I'm mostly a beat a game once type of guy. But there are so many mods out there, I don't get bored. Even then I love to just fire it up for a couple of battles in the Rumble Room (usually with original heroes and villains). I don't play FF1 anymore, but that's because I find the graphical abilites of FFvsTR to be much more good to look at. And really, I want things that are good to look at. When I'm not actually playing I'll just skin random things for myself (usually very unfinished and unpleasing to look at). Or I'll download other people's skins and meshes, if only to view them and nothing else. To me the game is a big work of art, but it's art you can sit down and interact with.
If they made a new game about the Freedom Force world, I'd most likely snatch it up. With no backwards mesh/skin compatability would I be sad? Yes. But would it urge me to create even more content? Probably. Like tommy, I would feel a need to create my most loved characters, knowing they weren't out there. Of course with no backwards compatability I probably wouldn't switch to the new game full throttle. I'd still use FFvsTR, if only because I've invested a bit into it.
Man, this post is sort of all over the place. I'll end it with this. The Freedom Force franchise will most likely never get another game. I accept that. However, it still (as well as Freedom Reborn) constantly gives me an output for creative energies. I enjoy that. I don't see myself stoping use any time soon.
Like Unko, I've come to accept that there will probably never be another proper Freedom Force game. I do remain hopeful that someday someone will make another superhero game that can be heavily modded. (If Irrational did do a new version of X-Com that might fit the bill, but I wonder if that's too much to hope for with the new Take 2 management.)
I smile whenever anyone says the FF community is dead. Maybe it's never been all that huge, and yes, it's had lots of setbacks. I've wandered away myself more than once, thinking that sure this time The End Is Here. But I always return eventually, and every time I return I find the community still ticking away, creating cool new things right and left. The FF community is the kudzu of games: it always grows back. And as an avid consumer of all the cool meshes, skins, mods and tools the community creates, I am very grateful for it!
As for my own experience with FF (+FFX), I come at the game a little differently than some folks here. Superheros weren't the big appeal of FF for me, though I like 'em just fine. What interested me about FF was that it was a tactical RPG with wide open character creation. It was, and still is, the only game where I can have ninjas fight pirates, vampires and telekinetic aliens. And Godzilla. And Howard the Duck. At the same time. Why would I want to walk away from a game like that?
it's funny to me how ppl are talking about the return of x-com, and the eternal demise of freedom force in the same post.
I don't care if there is another FF or not. I think the creator made content and FFX3.2 is just plain awesome. The only, and I mean the only, thing I could want is for flying models to take knockback. I can live without that, however.
I think every contribution is a positive one.
i mean, you see what i mean, right? is x-com dead?
if there is enough love for a game, or a setting, it will never die. someone, somehow will bring it back. x-com is really the best example i can think of this, right now.
Quote from: bearded on April 26, 2007, 11:28:03 PM
i mean, you see what i mean, right? is x-com dead?
if there is enough love for a game, or a setting, it will never die. someone, somehow will bring it back. x-com is really the best example i can think of this, right now.
Except that the original X-Com was an extremely popular game- more popular than :ff: by far. Unfortunately, it's not a valid comparison.
Still, I guess anything's possible.
Just keep in mind, that if it weren't for Freedom Force, MUA, the Justice League Game, and other such would never have come to pass. They are all based on the good old FF concept, heavily altered of course.
So it's legacy will live on.
I still play the game (even at times like the past month when other RL issues meant I didn't open it for most of that time). And I still like trying my hand at some of the scripting challenges out there. For me, the rule is simple: if I am active with the game (playing or creating), it's not dead. Full stop.
And, of course, the FR community can go on long after IG/T2 washes its hand of the game and even beyond people playing the game itself. The people I know here and the discussions keep me at the forum as much as the game does and would probably keep me here if I never played at all.
I agree that IG releasing a totally new version of the game would be a big deal. 99% sure I would buy it. BTW, I think IG did a respectable job of supporting the franchise, right up until the point they were bought out. Perfect? No. But pretty good, IMO.
(BTW, while I'm no expert, I've played MUA once or twice on a Wii and I can't see how the games are very simlar, aside from the broad idea that there are superheroes in both. I am glad for the success of superhero genre games and hope there is a crossover effect, but I don't see that sort of console game filling the FF niche.)
For your info Stumpy:
MUA/Freedom Force- Similarities:
4 heroes in a team
fight through missions with objectives and groups of foes
Use different powers that you gain as your hero gets XP
Play through a story meeting new heroes that automatically join you on your way
....etc
Basically the whole concept of the game is Freedom Force with slightly better graphics and a faster pace (no pause button and you control your hero with a joystick). But, in essence, MUA and FF are very,very similar
all those concepts were around before FF as well too...like in most rpg/adventure games. :P
Quote from: Previsionary on May 26, 2007, 12:42:21 AM
all those concepts were around before FF as well too...like in most rpg/adventure games. :P
I agree, since Mary was a boy.
Quote from: Lunarman on May 26, 2007, 12:14:06 AMFor your info Stumpy:
MUA/Freedom Force- Similarities:
4 heroes in a team
fight through missions with objectives and groups of foes
Use different powers that you gain as your hero gets XP
Play through a story meeting new heroes that automatically join you on your way
....etc
Basically the whole concept of the game is Freedom Force with slightly better graphics and a faster pace (no pause button and you control your hero with a joystick). But, in essence, MUA and FF are very,very similar
Those surface-level things are all clear, but the feel of play didn't seem very similar. I probably didn't play MUA long enough to get a good feel for the RPG nature of the game. It felt very bash and slash, without much of a comic book flavor, but I assume from what you are saying that things get more developed as one continues through the game. I should give it another shot.
QuoteThose surface-level things are all clear, but the feel of play didn't seem very similar. I probably didn't play MUA long enough to get a good feel for the RPG nature of the game. It felt very bash and slash, without much of a comic book flavor, but I assume from what you are saying that things get more developed as one continues through the game.
It really didn't develop much more than that.
It was a fun game for what it was.
However, the different characters and their powers just seemed like window dressing to what was a simple button mashing game.
It's was a variation of Gauntlet with Marvel characters and Cut Scenes.
A. Run through level
B. Kill/Destroy everything
C. Collect "gems"
D. Boss fight
E. Rinse and Repeat
Quote from: GogglesPizanno on May 26, 2007, 09:32:48 AM
QuoteThose surface-level things are all clear, but the feel of play didn't seem very similar. I probably didn't play MUA long enough to get a good feel for the RPG nature of the game. It felt very bash and slash, without much of a comic book flavor, but I assume from what you are saying that things get more developed as one continues through the game.
It really didn't develop much more than that.
It was a fun game for what it was.
However, the different characters and their powers just seemed like window dressing to what was a simple button mashing game.
It's was a variation of Gauntlet with Marvel characters and Cut Scenes.
A. Run through level
B. Kill/Destroy everything
C. Collect "gems"
D. Boss fight
E. Rinse and Repeat
Yeah, MUA is a pretty awesome game, but isn't anything groundbreaking by any means.
BTW, I LOVED Gauntlet Legends for N64. Dang, I miss it now..
I actually always thought the GTA series of games had an engine that could have been well suited and easily adapted to a superhero type of game. They've already got an expansive "living" city, various types of missions, flying, vehicles etc... With a little bit of tweaking its pretty well set up to be a complete little Comic book world. The storyline and game play are already sorta punisher-like anyway.
Imagine San Andreas the game where one city was metropolis, the other was Gotham, and you played not as a street thug, but as Clark Kent/Superman stopping crimes, helping cops. Hell, you could play as a villain if you wanted to, the mechanics are basically the same.
Its too bad the GTA games weren't easier to Mod....
Are the GTA games on PC? (excuse my ignorence) if they are then there's always a way to mod!!
You never know, a community made FF3 could come about... :)
QuoteAre the GTA games on PC? (excuse my ignorence) if they are then there's always a way to mod!!
They are.
And they can be modded.
But its ugly and mostly geared towards new cars.
Someone did create a Batmobile (form the 1989 film) for vice city.
It was fun to drive, in a really fast tank kinda way
I actually made an Ultra-Boy (from the legion of superheroes) mesh and Mod for GTA vice city, back when beginning the FF lsh mod.
But because of the difficulties of meshing and Modding in GTA VC I never followed it up or released it.
I was just thinking. If KOTOR II were moddable, tehe engine it uses could be good for a freedom force 3 game.
Although you'd have to make the turn based combat less obvious, but that shouldn't be a problem.
Comics showed me a Universe where anything was possible and fantastic - Freedom Force showed me this world in motion (thanks a million to the community) - City of Heroes/Villains let me become the Hero/Villain - The imaginations the limit - Thank God for all 4 :blink:
":blink:" - Electro
just wanted to toss my 2 cents in,
I think the FF games will always have a future. Sure people get sick of skinning and modding and need breaks, but these games seem to me to be really timeless. I got FF shortly after it was released, but due to problems with my graphics card I had to play on a roommate's computer, and I got to play very little.
I recently started playing again, and I was having so much fun with the old mods out there I dug a little deeper and saw all the cool stuff being made for FFVTR. I recently special ordered it online (couldn't find it in stores) and installed it. Can't wait to get deeper into it, but I know I'll still go back to FF and play it from time to time.
As long as mods are being made, the games will be played. Plus the software to skin and mod decently is getting cheaper all the time, so eventually broke gamers (like me :P) will start cranking out new content.
Plus the FR community has to be the coolest I've ever found. I haven't seen the kind of juvenile lashing out like I see in most forums for other games. Everyone here seems real supportive of each other, and it makes me not only want to play more but also start contributing to the community.
I have yet to try my hand at the visual aspects of things, but if anyone has need of a writer for a mod let me know. I have a Master's degree in writing and I'd love to help out if I can.
Thanks all
Spurred on by a thread on another forum, I was thinking about FF's future this morning.
Have any of you seen what they're doing with the 'Sam and Max' franchise these days? Or with Penny Arcade's first foray into gaming? Essentially, they're releasing new games as episodic content, on a monthly (or even biweekly) schedule.
These games don't have a ton of content to them. The 'Sam and Max' games, for instance, only have a couple of hours of play time per episode. On the other hand, each episode goes for $8.95 (or comes free with a monthly GameTap subscription), and when enough episodes have been produced, the development company intends to package them up on a disc, and sell them through traditional retail channels.
To me, this would be the IDEAL way for Irrational to give us more Freedom Force. It even works itself into the comic book idiom, with the concept of a monthly issue!
This is all an uneducated guess on my part, but from a cost perspective, they could probably do this cheaply by reusing the game engine and art assets, and retaining one full-time developer (if not, a few) who would ocassionally borrow in-house artists and modellers for new content. I guess a writer would need to be involved at some point, too. And QA folk. :P
Anyway, episodic content appears to be the new hotness, and I can't think of a game that's better-suited for it than FF. Certainly, if an old (but beloved) franchise like 'Sam and Max' can turn a profit, I have to imagine that FF (small fanbase and all) could do the same.
Regards,
Corporate Dog
First off, Corporate Dog, welcome to the boards! I hope you enjoy your stay!
Secondly, I like the Episodic approach you mentioned quite a bit, but one problen I see is on the voice- acting end of the game. I really can't see any of the actors committing to a fairly part- time gig... well, maybe George LeDeux, but that's just because he's the man.
Anyways, many fan- made missions, like Liberty Bay and what- have- you, are already set up like this for the most part.
[Hope I didn't sound mean, really wasn't my intent. See you around the boards.]
As I understand it, IG wanted to have periodic expansion missions (not monthly, though) but was unable to get it off the gorund.
Quote from: The Hitman on June 15, 2007, 09:08:26 PM
First off, Corporate Dog, welcome to the boards! I hope you enjoy your stay!
Thanks!
Quote
Secondly, I like the Episodic approach you mentioned quite a bit, but one problen I see is on the voice- acting end of the game. I really can't see any of the actors committing to a fairly part- time gig... well, maybe George LeDeux, but that's just because he's the man.
Yeah, I considered that too. For what it's worth, the Penny Arcade games won't be voicing the main characters (though, that has more to do with 'not wanting to contradict the voices that readers apply to the characters in their heads, as they read the comic').
I don't think it's an insurmountable obstacle. IG could decide not to do new voice recordings, only record for a few characters (like the ones that George lends his voice to; Minuteman's dulcet tones MAKE the game, as far as I'm concerned), or contract out for a whole "season's" worth of voice-work.
But then, I'm well-aware that voice-acting is a big part of the FF games, it's probably one of the more expensive parts to do well, and anything less than what we've come to expect would be a little bit of a disappointment.
Quote
Anyways, many fan- made missions, like Liberty Bay and what- have- you, are already set up like this for the most part.
True. But new software sales flowing to Irrational in the name of FF, COULD translate to bigger and better things for the franchise.
I SO want to see Irrational's take on "Freedom Force in the 90's", complete with over-the-top, Liefield-inspired, foil-bedecked cover art, and stupid, EDGY characters with poorly-drawn physiques. :P
Quote
[Hope I didn't sound mean, really wasn't my intent. See you around the boards.]
Not at all, dude. Thanks for the welcome!
Quote from: Protomorph
As I understand it, IG wanted to have periodic expansion missions (not monthly, though) but was unable to get it off the gorund.
How long ago was that, though? And was it a traditional expansion pack that would be sold through traditional retail channels?
Because the 'episodic content' boom is kind of a new thing that's really starting to take off. And it's perfect for games with little-to-no need for marketing or packaging (which, as I understand it, was one of IG's BIGGEST expenses for the first two games).
Regards,
Corporate Dog
Well, I thought FF was dead for me until recently. I actually forgot my original log-in and password, and had to create this identity. Once I was back, even through the disappointment of finding a large number of the great fan creators had basically left, I never knew why I quit.
Yes, a superhero rpg tweaked me. But it was the "create your own characters" that intrigued me, as I am a poor artist with a crazy brainstem that just keeps churning out ideas. Yes, they are all puzzles pieced together from other people's talented endeavors, but they have that "Peerless" twist.
Now that I am learning NifSkope, I can finally do some things that I just didn't want to bother others with before. Not to mention, help out those who are reflections of me a few years ago...just a guy downloading all the great artwork, skins, mods, tools, etc. created by those still here as well as those who are gone. And I don't play a whole lot, although I have downloaded a couple of the "newer" mods, and some of the old ones that others have put back out there.
I know I am mostly rambling here, but to the point...I believe this game, due to the members of this community new and old, is really just getting off the ground (again). And I want to thank every1 who has offered me support, criticism, and even a small demand for my "kitbashed" (skoped) meshes.
I plan to be here for the long haul (not that I won't take vacations occasionally). And it's not just all the love and sweat that have gone into the assorted projects, but the way people here are mostly friendly. And hey, I know sometimes it's a pain in the @$$ that many like me ask ask ask, and sometimes don't seem very gracious...but all the efforts are appreciated, even when my mouth fingers gets ahead of my brain sometimes. (And in frustration I say stupid things like "how do you get rid of those ridiculous kneepads?" when what I really want is no kneepads for a particular character. Yes, that was me...)
I think this game has a future so long as any number of us keep coming here. If IG and their new parent company don't see fit to make any more FF, oh well. There are still a load of mods I haven't played, and if I can get focused here, I may start one of my own.
Oh well--this is what makes 5 cents worth about zilch. Thanks to all anyway. And I hope to see every1 around for awhile (even if only intermittently). :D
Quote from: Corporate Dog on June 17, 2007, 07:05:11 AM
Quote from: Protomorph
As I understand it, IG wanted to have periodic expansion missions (not monthly, though) but was unable to get it off the gorund.
How long ago was that, though? And was it a traditional expansion pack that would be sold through traditional retail channels?
Because the 'episodic content' boom is kind of a new thing that's really starting to take off. And it's perfect for games with little-to-no need for marketing or packaging (which, as I understand it, was one of IG's BIGGEST expenses for the first two games).
That was after FFvsTTR was released; IIRC, plans were supposedly to make these downloadable. That might have been the secret behind big FF-related announcement which IG hinted for a few months before the Take-Two takeover (sorry for the pun) and the forum shutdown; I don't think
that's what they had in mind. :/
While I agree that episodic downloadable content is a very interesting avenue for a lot of franchises, I have reservations for a game like FF. It works very well for Bethesda (Oblivion) and Valve (Half-Life 2) because they have the necessary cash to invest in the download infrastructure and, crucially, the games already have an immense number of users. On the other hand, FFvsTTR was the work of a cash-stripped startup and almost unpublicized (the marketing was almost inexistant, in part because IG hadn't the resources, in part, IMO, because they grossly underestimated its necessity).
Does that mean smaller franchises can't succeed with episodic content? No, but they need to either increase their basic userbase (those who get the basic game/firt episode; done through good traditional advertising and/or great viral marketing plus luck), increase their faithful userbase (those who buy the subsequent downloadable episodes; done by creating consistently great content, a great community and by making the buying process extremely easy*), increase price (without losing too many customers, of course) or reduce cost (popular games nowaday cost millions to make, even without taking production and advertising into account; done by rigorous management, cheap labour, in-game advertising, etc.)
For example, imagine there's a game which was originally sold in store and broke even or made a profit after initial development, production and marketing costs. Let's say their download system costs is a small $100,000 and that episodic content costs only $20,000 to produce (which could mean something like 200-250 hours of total time for concept, writing, art, music, voice, mapmaking, programming, quality insurance, project management, advertising, transactional website management, support, etc.). Suppose that 1% percent of the user base is going to buy online the episode for a price of 1$.
Half-Life 2 sold more than 4 million copies. With the above fictional figures, they'd get $40,000. So, they'd need five games to pay the web transaction system and after that, they get $20,000 per game, unless one of these episodes ends up costing way more than it was supposed (and this is going to happen).
How many copies did FFvsTTR sell? I'd guess that 50,000 would be an extremely generous estimate. Then, assuming the same above figures, they'd lose $19,500 on every episode, download system cost not included.
Hopefully the actual figures are better than that. And breaking even isn't completely out of reach: with a 50,000 user base, and 5% of buyers at $5.33, you'd get $20,000 per release.
Anyway, on the short term, the development of the game is squarely within our own hands, which makes the arrival of fresh blood like yours and Peerless all the better. :)
*Think Amazon. Or, more concretely, for a game like FF, if a good chunk of your core audience is under 18, payment by credit card only is bad. However, if anyone can take a $10 cell phone card certificate bought at the local drugstore to pay, you're starting to look good.
I was thinking though. If we found a new game with a sutible engine the whole community could work together producing all new art and scripting and music. It would be feasible to make a Freedom Force 3 that could be sold in shops. The quality we have here is most certainly good enough.
Not sure how that would work leagally though, and where the money would go.
But, just think. Games like KoToR II or MUA could be used very well as an engine for FF3
I've been a long time fan of Freedom Force, since the beginning in fact. I came to terms with the fact that there may well never be a 3rd FF game, a long time ago.
But I don't mind. Freedom Force (out the box) has been dead since the take over.
The community has done an amazing job at keeping it going. The way I see it, with FFX and other such endevours, even without a community I still have many years worth of enjoyment from the games.
Irrational made a great game, highly expandable- and community members have taken that to crazy heights!
Now what we have left are true fans in this forum, and whats more, I think we all truly understand what we have in our hands now, and feed off each others appreciation of that!
So how ever long this lasts, I'm really glad I can share these great times and experiences with every1 here.
FF is thriving IMO :thumbup:.
QuoteNot sure how that would work leagally though, and where the money would go.
that's what it's all about....the legal headaches. it would be easier to just mod a game that already has a large mod community. you could do it and distribute it legally provided you used original or existing (for that game) characters. it looks like the publishers have dropped the modding challenge, and decided to release games of their own to capitalize on the demand. if the ff3 mod stayed low key (like the community is now), you'd probably be able to continue to use mainstream characters as now.
jedi knight academy (JK3) would be a good candidate in that there are a lot of resources available, it runs the quake 3 engine which is action heavy and online/multiplayer friendly, and it's about 4 years old, so you can get it online for about $10....assuming everybody is willing to drop all the content they've aquired and are currently developing for the first 2 freedom force games...
B92
well, I just get in to this game for first time. :D I see the game long time ago I was curius but I never try it. now I'm playing and collecting my favorite comic book characters. the game is awsome. thanks to this comunity for sure.
Just to misquote Thor #1:
"It is not up to the industry to decide if a game is dead. It is up to the players."
And this community proves that even if as a cash avenue :ff: and :ffvstr: are dead; they are alive and well with us. Let's keep it that way. :jeyrox
BTW, I really need to play again soon... :P