Freedom Reborn Archive

I heard on the radio on my way in that the issue of Captain America going on sale today features him being assassinated.

Open thread for comments.

On one level, it's typical of the crud Marvel has pulled in recent years.  Apparently Joe Quesada was even quoted as saying that they can bring characters back from the dead, so I'd tend to believe this won't be permanent.

On another level, it does make for realistic fallout from the whole Civil War bit.  Cap being stripped of all his protective gear, possibly in restraints, marched out in public... heck yeah, he'd be an easy target for any number of his enemies.  And then Stark and all of the rest will have to start considering the consequences of what they've done, so that's another opportunity to develop storylines.

If it's for real, and Cap is dead for good, then I'm through with Marvel Comics for as far as I can see.

If it's a gag, and Cap will be back as soon as some new hot-shot writer can find a twisted, poorly thought-out excuse  to revive the character, then I don't care, and I'm through with Marvel Comics as far as I can see.

What a cheap ploy. Do they think they're being profound, killing "liberty"?

Man.......like the creator of the character said....we really need him now.  This is a terrible time for this.  Once again, I'm glad I don't read modern comics. 

Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on March 07, 2007, 08:00:16 AM
If it's for real, and Cap is dead for good, then I'm through with Marvel Comics for as far as I can see.

If it's a gag, and Cap will be back as soon as some new hot-shot writer can find a twisted, poorly thought-out excuse  to revive the character, then I don't care, and I'm through with Marvel Comics as far as I can see.

What a cheap ploy. Do they think they're being profound, killing "liberty"?

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a bit, though, how is this any different than DC's "Death of Superman" story arc?  Or what Marvel has done countless times before, as in, killing off a beloved character (temporarily or otherwise) to boost sales?

Ohh it's not different....but Cap embodies so much that is good about America....it just seems....wrong somehow.

Maybe Stark will inherit Cap's shield... Then he can call himself Irony-Man.  :P

(Ok, ok... I couldn't resist the gag...)

That , and the fact that its already been done  in Caps own book. Its not about the Captain America Uniform. Its about Steve Rogers, a man tied to several generations, who through his experience has led the greatest fighting team the world has ever seen. Twice, if you count the invaders. It was he , not Captain America (as seen as when he abandoned the identity more than once) that has proven to be the conscience of the MU, standing up for truth, justice, and Yes , the American Way when the rest of his ilk wouldn't. Steve had a set of princples that may have seemed outdated to some, but they were the ideals that embodied what was good about the American Ideal . You can't just come along and then give the outfit to...from what I hear.. the Punisher.

Like I said  before, If I could stop reading Marvel Comics twice, I would.

this is rather dumb,they have to be getting alot of bad feedback after civil war( i know i am not collecting marvel anymore)(maybe wolverine if its not this initiative thing) but on the other hand as you say its just a ploy,but how many are we going to take,me i was almost done when they cancelled xman when it was #6 on the selling list

Cheers to B A D. When I think of Captain America I think of Steve Rogers. There have been times when I thought to myself, "What would Captain America do right now?" And then I've had to correct myself and remember that Captain America is an abstraction, a costume; Steve Rogers is the character I've always admired.

Steve Rogers is not a martyr. He is a legend, and he deserves the highest regard Marvel can bestow on any of its characters. Trying to make him an Abraham Lincoln figure cheapens both Abe's sacrifice and Steve's legacy.

Another man (or woman!) can pick up the shield, but it won't be Steve Rogers, so it won't be the man everyone respects throughout the Marvel Universe.

(An aside, though: Why did Steve surrender, anyway?)

Good point BAD, I feel the same way.

i'll give my thoughts when i read the book, but personally if they were going to do this, i would have done it iactully during civil war


personally(bear with me i know a good 90% will hate this idea) i would have done it about half way through CW instead of goliath i would have had the clone thor kill cap. that way it bring drama to the pro reg side with them still believing its ideals but seeing how out of control its becoming with some jumping ship and such. plus look at it as the ultimate his closest friends( tony, reed and hank) are un wittingly behind his death and the "gun" is taken in the form of an comrade he thought dead himself

and this way steve rogers becomes a martyr to the anti reg ad its basiclly now jimmies to the wall fall out

Quote from: B A D on March 07, 2007, 08:35:13 AM
Its not about the Captain America Uniform. Its about Steve Rogers, a man tied to several generations, who through his experience has led the greatest fighting team the world has ever seen. Twice, if you count the invaders. It was he , not Captain America (as seen as when he abandoned the identity more than once) that has proven to be the conscience of the MU, standing up for truth, justice, and Yes , the American Way when the rest of his ilk wouldn't. Steve had a set of princples that may have seemed outdated to some, but they were the ideals that embodied what was good about the American Ideal .

You want to deliver the eulogy?  'Cause that was, like, beautiful, man.

Quote from: B A D on March 07, 2007, 08:35:13 AMYou can't just come along and then give the outfit to...from what I hear.. the Punisher.

Ugh.  Really?  No way.  That's even worse than giving it to some of the other jerks who've briefly assumed the mantle.  It's wrong on so many levels I can't even verbalize them all.  Punny has his place in the MU, but that's not the one.

Quote from: B A D on March 07, 2007, 08:35:13 AMLike I said  before, If I could stop reading Marvel Comics twice, I would.

I've quit at least twice.  :D It was usually Spidey or the X-Men that brought me back before, but they've jacked those characters around badly enough that the last time I quit reading has so far held.

Nobody stays dead. Ok, maybe the original Thunderbird, but that's it!

Maybe it's a ruse.   Maybe Steve will be the person in the Ronin suit when Ronin rejoins the Avengers.

And Marvel just keeps giving me a reason not to buy their comics...

...way to go guys. Snuff an icon with a snipers bullet and not a heroic act.

When you start having a lack of respect for your own characters like that... why should I have any for them either?

Actually, the Sniper's bullet doesn't whack  cap. its-

Agent 13 (sharon carter)

Manipulated by Dr. Faustus

As Directed by the Red Skull.

She puts 3 slugs in him. Point Blank. Chest.

And then, they drop a Sixteen Ton weight on him.

And then Iron Man relieves himself on the remains.....yep, that should boost sales for a week or two.......

Quote from: RTTingle on March 07, 2007, 09:02:48 AM
And Marvel just keeps giving me a reason not to buy their comics...

...way to go guys. Snuff an icon with a snipers bullet and not a heroic act.

When you start having a lack of respect for your own characters like that... why should I have any for them either?

Some folks will buy the comic just for the hype factor.  Heck, I'm even half-tempted to check out what happened just out of curiosity.  I'm going to resist that impulse as part of my own ongoing personal boycott of Marvel comics, but some won't.  Imagine if they can get even a fraction of the old-school comics readers to check it out?

Hype sells.  Why else would they mention a comic book on a mainstream news radio station?

Um, I should mention that if anyone knows anything concrete, maybe spoiler tags would be appropriate.

Heh, Mavrel stopped getting my money when they killed off Thor.

This is all about money.  Marvel expects huge sales from this issue. And I'd expect brisk sales from his return issue also. Who knows, maybe Cap's return to the comic world will be coordinated with the release of the Captain America Movie.

I dunno which would be worst, killing off and bringing back Steve Rodgers or replacing him with a younger character.

You guys ever think this is a ruse to protect Steve? That way, they can get another Captain America (in the public view) and Steve can still go about being Steve.

Does anyone else sometimes get the feeling that Marvel is systematically and deliberately destroying their entire universe?

Quote from: Thunder on March 07, 2007, 08:54:56 AM
Maybe it's a ruse.   Maybe Steve will be the person in the Ronin suit when Ronin rejoins the Avengers.

Nah! Cap don't say "Yo". (like ronin does in New Avengers #27). After almost 25 years of "make mine Marvel"....they're forcin' me to even consider stop collecting Marvel Comics....Killin' Cap?  :thumbdown: That would do it for me if this is on the level. I got faith in Bru....but no faith in Joe Q, so I'm at the door and it opening into the DCU. FRACK!  :angry:

:yawn:

Quote from: thanoson on March 07, 2007, 09:26:58 AM
You guys ever think this is a ruse to protect Steve? That way, they can get another Captain America (in the public view) and Steve can still go about being Steve.

Problem with that is that everyone in the world knows who Steve is. And Steve doesn't stop being Cap....ever! (except in CW  ;))

just want to throw something out there, i always find it funny when people moan that there doing it all for the money


well duh of course

there's companys, the main goal is to make money. as an artist myself i always found it laughable that people  moan and say others sold when they 99.9% of the time would do the same

My thoughts are that comics are for entertainment, for fun.  Heros shouldn't be dead.  That's why I will always hate DC because they killed off Barry Allen.  I used to dream about being the flash when I was a kid.
Boo to killing off heros. :thumbdown:

Quote from: cripp12 on March 07, 2007, 10:59:42 AM
My thoughts are that comics are for entertainment, for fun.  Heros shouldn't be dead.  That's why I will always hate DC because they killed off Barry Allen.  I used to dream about being the flash when I was a kid.
Boo to killing off heros. :thumbdown:

Well guess who's comin' back in this year's DC event!  :rolleyes: I just read the issue of Cap and Bru once again delivers a great story....but it's also the most heartbreaking thing I've read this year. :(  I just don't know what to make of it. As a fan I'm crushed.

Quote from: Blkcasanova247 on March 07, 2007, 11:11:10 AM

Quote from: cripp12 on March 07, 2007, 10:59:42 AM
My thoughts are that comics are for entertainment, for fun.  Heros shouldn't be dead.  That's why I will always hate DC because they killed off Barry Allen.  I used to dream about being the flash when I was a kid.
Boo to killing off heros. :thumbdown:

Well guess who's comin' back in this year's DC event!  :rolleyes:

Don't even kid about something like that.

But Barry's alive in Justice..

That kind of thing is why I read just about everything Alex Ross does ;)  Not having grown up in the Silver Age itself, I still love its characters, even if I don't care for the stories all that much.

I don't know if it's a permanent thing but Dan Didio did confirm that Barry Allen is in the World War 3 event.

Now I remember why I only read X- Factor and DC comics...

Quote from: B A D on March 07, 2007, 08:35:13 AM
You can't just come along and then give the outfit to...from what I hear.. the Punisher.

Argh. Why don't they just put Wintery Bucky Soldier in the suit, and make the crapfest come full circle. Oddly, I wouldn't mind seeing Cable as Cap for an issue or two.

Quote from: udasu on March 07, 2007, 08:51:54 AM
Nobody stays dead. Ok, maybe the original Thunderbird, but that's it!

He's alive in Exiles. Feh.

Quote from: BentonGrey on March 07, 2007, 09:09:22 AM
And then Iron Man relieves himself on the remains.....

HA! Dr. Pepper shot out of my nose when I read that one!

Becides, he'll come back... more than likely as a by- product of Franklin Richards' powers after the Leifeld Onslaught/ Hero's Reborn sequal thing, a- la Hawkeye at the end of House of phleM.

You know I hear this everytime a comic does a controversial thing, and I'm starting to get tired of it. Not that I always agree or like the moves, but alot of good story oppurtunities are lost if you're not able to try things like this.

In the Cap situation specifically, this has been rumoured for quite some time so I'm not surprised. Cap isn't a specific favorite of mine and I've never bought his book, nor am I planning to start, but my judgement will be reserved for a while til I see how this is handled and the quality of stories, and story possibilities it leads to.

In a more general sense, I think Marvel and DC are relying too much on shocking death lately as a a story device. I'm not against death by any means, but a seeming rise in it has given rise to some things I don't like. One being the "every event must kill a major character and several minor ones" - death is not the only device you can use, there are many different options to be played out. Second the mass of deaths and returns lately means that everytime someone dies one of the first three comments I hear is "they'll be back next year" - and it drives me nuts. While this is an industry designed for entertainment and profit so the ability to bring back characters is a must, I really wish it hadn't got to this point. But I wouldn't ban killing or bringing back characters because it just limits what you're capable of doing. The last thing that annoys me is that the more you kill heroes the more you have to wonder why other heroes survive what they do. It brings up a believability issue, that can be minor or big depending on the stories told.

Anyway that's my piece. As for Steve, we'll see...

This morning I launched a web browser...my browser's homepage is set to a newsite...lo and behold on the front page is the picture of Captain America dead on some steps, with the words, "Captain America Is Dead".

I wanted to cry.

I've read Marvel comics all of my life. I've had three favorite heroes during that time. Hawkeye, Iron Man, and of course Captain America.  I was devastated when I watched Hawkeye killed during Avengers Dissassembled. I was furious when I watched Iron Man become the newest villain in the 616, but the death of Captain America is just too much.

Dan Buckley said the ideals of Captain America haven't died, only the man in the costume.  What a bunch of bull Dan.

There was a reason only Steve Rogers could wear the costume...no uniform, of Captain America.  Only Steve understood the ideals of the U.S.A. and what it truly meant to be a hero.  Anybody can wear the uniform, but they will never be able to live up to the ideals of what that shield truly represents.  Steve Rogers was a patriot and a hero - a hero other "heroes" looked up to.  He was highly respected in both hero and villain circles.  Dan can put somebody else in the uniform, but that person will never be able to live up to the life Steve did.

Marvel can never bring back Steve Rogers now.  Bringing him back to life cheapens him too much. Putting somebody else in the uniform cheapens the character.

Superheroes aren't supposed to die. The closest they should get to death is drastic defeat.

Joe Simon is right. We really do need him (Captain America) now.

Right on the money!

Mynd, you've hit the nail on the head. I really couldn't agree more.

Amen.

I don't know if you guys could tell but Captain America "IS" my favorite hero!

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104091

Maybe I'm getting old here (26 is old, right?), but I'd like to see stories that wring the reader around in every direction, packed with ups and downs and all that, and with characters that don't shift their beliefs from one end of the spectrum to the other. And dag nabbit, I want happy endings!! They're HEROES, for crying out loud!

Think about it: Why are older fans (26 is older, right?) so enamored with comics long after they've lost their original childish purposes of fueling imagination and all that? Because they encoded us with basic ideals of right and wrong, &c., &c. I blame comics, Star Trek and GIJoe for my entire values system, and I have a pretty decent system of values. That's why I keep reading '60s comics, and that's why Peter Parker, Steve Rogers and Bruce Banner have always been some of my favorite characters, regardless how sophisticated my literature has grown since adolescence. They face adversity and hold fast to a strong moral grounding, and even if they don't succeed they at least fail with dignity and decency.

Maybe you can't sell millions of comics with decency and that junk, but you can bet I'd still buy a copy. Even if it is $3.50!!

Marvel has lost that Lee-Kirby spirit, and that's a terrible loss for everyone. Maybe when I get some big things cleared away in my daily life I can pen a few positive adventure tales and try to put back on paper what all those old comics gave me.

I'm surfing the interweb reading about the outcry of fans all over the world at this discovery.  I'm still in shock.  But then I found this tidbit which really resonated with me...

"'Thank you Marvel for showing that if the terrorists wait long enough, America will destroy its own symbols of truth, justice, and liberty. What next? Flying superheroes into buildings?'"

/cry

Well, another poorly written story. Another bad concept. Captain America is the moral compass for Marvel... so they shoot him to sell comics. I think that speaks volumes.  :(

I think it's interesting that everyone is "anti-marvel" because of this. I don't like it either, but DC isn't any better. Blue Beetle, Jade, Sue Dibny... death sells and the comic companies all cash in on it.

Hey now, I have the same disgust for both companies...I'm an equal opportunity curmudgen.  Seriously, I doubt that many people are just beating up on Marvel, it's been said a couple of times that DC does the same kind of things....I mean, look at Supes!

My frustration with Marvel may be a tad misdirected. But then, with characters with histories that span GENERATIONS of readers, you'd think they'd be more innovative and respectful with them. Cap's become another squandered source of inspiration. And that's why I'm ticked at Marvel.

I can confirm that Cap gets shot, because I've seen a pic of the aftermath, posted at another site. If I remember correctly, he gets shot in the gut while in costume but unmasked, with Sharon Carter and another character (I *think* Nick Fury) standing nearby.

AND I AM BEYOND ticked!

There's only one way I could see this being a good thing, and it involves the assassination being faked, so Cap can go underground and cause problems for S.H.I.E.L.D., Stark, and all the other pro-regs.

Think about this: Cap was pretty much under arrest and possibly through as a hero for the moment. If he `dies', what's to stop him from either manipulating things from behind the scenes or adopting a new identity to continue fighting crime.

He could very well even infiltrate S.H.I.E.L.D. or buddy up to Stark, only to come out of hiding once something happens that backfires on the pro-reg side of things (such as a villain like Machinesmith or a hacker gaining access to the registration database and causing havoc such as selling the list to the highest bidder and thus a character who is more or less like Scourge but kills superheroes emerging or someone using the list to recruit superpowered psychos for a terrorist group or supervillain team) and be the one who puts the pro-registration side in their place.

However, if Cap is really dead, then I'm pretty much done with Marvel as long as Joe Q is EIC. I planned on dumping Captain America, the only Marvel book I've been reading, from my pull list after the next issue, anyway, but I think I'm going to skip even picking up the issue and am going to forget about adding the new Captain Marvel series entirely. If any hero from Civil War should have ended up dead, its either Tony Stark or Reed Richards, in my opinion.

Frankly, I think the Punisher should be the next Captain America, because they've pretty much screwed up the character of Cap already, so why not hand it off to a bloodthirsty vigilante who blows people away on a regular basis, since it can't hurt any worse.

Joe Q and Mark Millar make me sick.

Quote from: Podmark on March 07, 2007, 11:53:29 AM
You know I hear this everytime a comic does a controversial thing, and I'm starting to get tired of it. Not that I always agree or like the moves, but alot of good story oppurtunities are lost if you're not able to try things like this.

I get that, as I pointed out in the first post of the thread.  IF Marvel has the stomach for it, it could be the catalyst for some really good stories.

Quote from: Podmark on March 07, 2007, 11:53:29 AM
In a more general sense, I think Marvel and DC are relying too much on shocking death lately as a a story device. I'm not against death by any means, but a seeming rise in it has given rise to some things I don't like. One being the "every event must kill a major character and several minor ones" - death is not the only device you can use, there are many different options to be played out. Second the mass of deaths and returns lately means that everytime someone dies one of the first three comments I hear is "they'll be back next year" - and it drives me nuts. While this is an industry designed for entertainment and profit so the ability to bring back characters is a must, I really wish it hadn't got to this point. But I wouldn't ban killing or bringing back characters because it just limits what you're capable of doing. The last thing that annoys me is that the more you kill heroes the more you have to wonder why other heroes survive what they do. It brings up a believability issue, that can be minor or big depending on the stories told.

That's the part that gets me.  The whole "Shocking Death" plot device is so over-done in comic-book-land it's a cliche.  Will Marvel (or DC for that matter) deal with death in a realistic manner that doesn't cheapen human dignity?  Maybe, but I don't know why they'd start now.

(I've been anti-Marvel for a long time now, actually, Mowgli... this kind of thing just reinforces my basic instinct to stay the heck away from just about anything they're selling.  And that's coming from a long-time Spidey fan.)

Captain America, now.  The sniper's bullet is certainly believable, especially in today's world.  It does generate a lot of hype and shock.  But I wish that the message had been more along the lines of "Real heroes go down fighting".  It does sort of cheapen the legacy of the character that he didn't die in battle... he died senselessly as the result of a cowardly act.  That fits the real world too much, I think.  We used to want our heroes to overcome such things so that they could inspire us to do the same.  Now we just want to know that they suffer like we do.

And people say comic book fans are reactionary?   :rolleyes:  Right now, there seem to be two things that sell superhero comics: nostalgia and shock.  Everyone spleen-venting in here - I'd say nostalgia covers most of you.  Shock, however, gets the attention of the mainstream media.  Apparently killing-off Captain America got Marvel more free press than almost anything I can think of.  Of course Marvel is doing this for the money: they do everything for the money.  Most companies do.

Do I think the Marvel universe is heading towards an ugly, fascist place?  Yes.  Do I still read Marvel comics?  Some.  One event isn't going to make me throw up my hands and scream to the heavens, not when there are still good books being published by Marvel that will feel almost no impact from this.

i must be the only one on the boards, not really bothered or angry about this

Nah you're not the only one UE, it's not a huge deal to me. I'm more worried about how Marvel's going to blow the oppurtunities now available (and they always do, don't get me started on Decimation).

See thats another thing I don't entirely get. When something you really don't like happens you quit the whole company? I can't say that every thing thats been done at Marvel (or DC) I've liked or agreed with, but nothing they've done has ever made me consider dropping their entire line, just the books that no longer please or interest me.

My current pull list includes Spider-Girl an old school style book that is completely disconnected from the rest of the events in the Marvel universe. I'm not going to drop it because Captain America died (he died last year in their universe :P ). I buy other books too, most of which are similarily disconnected from the big events. If I was buying Cap right now I doubt I'd be dropping it right away because I'd likely be enjoying Brubaker's work and want to see if he could still hold me without Steve himself.

I can kind of understand not wanting to support the company that does things you don't like, but at the same time you'd also be dropping your support of titles that you would enjoy. If you don't like that Cap died I can easily see not buying books affected by that move, but say you like and read...Runaways for example, do you give up that book as well?

I have a huge problem with Marvel killing off Captain America and here's why:

1. I understand that Marvel is a company and is interested in making money. They killed off their most iconic and defining character (aside from Spidey) so they can sell issues today.  However a company needs to plan for long term goals. How do you increase revenue over a period of say 5 years?  Killing Cap ensured that they sell comics today, but their lack of telling compelling stories is not building a solid base for the years to come.

2. Comic books and superheroes should be a place where we can travel to get away from the drudgery of the every day common world.  Allegory is too easy for a writer to write about.  Allegory is meaningful "today", but it holds little appeal 10 or 20 years down the road.  Symbolism and the path of the hero are what makes things eternal. The ability to read a book at any point in time and the reader's ability to draw meaning from it are what makes things timeless.  Tolkien understood this - and it's the single reason why The Lord of the Rings continues to find readers today.  Captain America and the heroes of comics should be treated in similar fashion.  Writing about a Superhuman Registration Act, an entire gimmick designed to reflect the happenings of the real world is too easy to do.  It forced readers to "take sides" based on religious, moral, and/or political beliefs.  The writers should have never done this.  The heroes of these fantasy worlds should have been written so that everyone could identify with core beliefs - they should be a place where we can all come together on the same side and connect.  That is what makes these types of characters so defining and truly heroic.

3. Killing Cap off today placed him in the "real world".  Instead Cap should have been fighting against another Skrull or Brood invasion. He should have been battling some evil super villian for the betterment of humanity.  He should have been hoisting the American flag for every American Citizen.  He should have been a unifying figure in today's world, instead Civil War made him into a devisive figure.  All the good Cap has done over the years didn't even garner him one of the pardons talked about in Issue 7 of Civil War.  So the country he so loved and protected all of these years kicks him to the curb 'just like that'?  Marvel clearly had the ordinary people of the Marvel U take sides against Captain America in their mag while the entire real world populace has been clearly rooting for him and supporting him.  Now, more than ever, people need heroes in their lives. People to look up to, to emulate, to believe in.

4. Old and young alike.  Those of us who have grown up on heroes such as Cap remember what it's like to have heroes as a child, to imagine you're that hero with your friends. The long discussions about hero battles, and the make-believe times in your friend's yard while playing action figures or acting out as your favorite heroes.  The younger generation still needs heroes like this.  Captain America was one of those heroes.  Now little kids have to discover their hero is dead. How devastating.  Those of us who are now older, it was us who could sit down with a child and look at Captain America and connect. We've been there, and Cap was there with us.

Marvel certainly is looking to increase profits - and that is fine.  They should do so in creating compelling stories. While they are trying to create compelling stories by killing off the Sentry of Liberty, they failed to realize their responsibility with such an iconic and mythological figure.  That's why this death of Steve Rogers has created such an outcry on the internet. He was more than just a "literary character". Steve Rogers, throughout his many battles and decades of being with us, has become the stuff of legend - he is now myth. And myth connects with everyone.  Quesada and company did not recognize this.  For that I'm deeply saddened.

In Memorium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45WtQ9BqSM

Ok, I'm going to keep this short.  If anyone wants my full take on this then go to my myspace blog and read about it later this evening.  As were I to give it here, I'd get accused of all sorts of stuff . . . you people know who you are.

That aside, I think it's a ploy.  I really hope it is.  Having seen the teaser for Omega Flight and the fact that there is a guy with a shield whose silouhette suspciously resembles Cap's and the fact that it looks to be Sharon Carter who shot him.  I suspect this is the case.

Many of you here are not old enough to remember when Steve Rogers set aside the Captain America mantle during the 70s and became The Nomad.  I think that is, to an extent, what is in play here.  Putting Steve undercover can serve two purposes and one of them, I can't mention here except to say "think about the two sides at play in the Civil War book and then their current events parallels".   The one I can mention is that some new does take up the mantle of Captain America but eventually hands back to Steve when he is revealed alive.

Just a few thoughts.  Either way, I quit buying Marvel at the start of all the Civil War bull.  I'm glad I did.  Will I ever buy a Marvel title again?  I'll never say never.  I started back buying Cap when he first joined the Marvel Knights line for a brief time though once that ended it kinda went back to "business as usual".

Quote from: Podmark on March 07, 2007, 01:55:34 PM
If you don't like that Cap died I can easily see not buying books affected by that move, but say you like and read...Runaways for example, do you give up that book as well?

Well....I for one do not really care for Runaways.  But that's me.

I read comics for the heroic actions of iconic characrters. Namely Iron Man and Captain America.  I'm not a fan of "realistic" storylines in comics. I enjoy the over-the-top super heroic actions of yesteryear.  I want to see The Avengers battle to keep the world from being wiped out of existence - not battle each other over some stupid law pin heads in Washington passed.  For years I read The Avengers, Captain America, Iron Man, and X-Men. I stopped reading the X-Men when they split into 143828193847491010 titles. One or two - okay.  More than that and I get confused as a reader as to what the continuity is - so I stopped.  The Avengers are now filled with characters who are sub-par as heroes (IMHO), aside from Ms. Marvel and Iron Man.  Without Steve Rogers I don't feel the desire to read the mag(s) anymore.  Sure I may continue to follow for a few months just to see what happens, but I won't be *dying* to find out.  That pretty much leaves Iron Man - and considering he's now Alpha Villain in 616 now I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth and not really caring what happens to him.  I no longer see Iron Man as a hero anymore - he's just some guy who turns on his friends.

So that pretty much leaves me without Marvel books to buy.  I can't say I'll boycott Marvel in entirety. I'll probably pick up trades of various past story arcs and whatnot.  As to being a continued fan from month to month.....There's not really much for this reader to be excited about in the MU anymore.  Perhaps Captain Mar-vell will change that....

Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on March 07, 2007, 02:14:51 PM
Having seen the teaser for Omega Flight and the fact that there is a guy with a shield whose silouhette suspciously resembles Cap's

That is supposed to be USAgent, and while it could be a trick and it's really Steve Rogers, I seriously doubt it. Especially considering Omega Flight is a 6 issue limited series. Additionally the Initiative one shot came out today, and may have clearly stated if it was John Walker.

read this on GWO earlier

oh well

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/breaking_news/16849577.htm

GAH MAN! SPOILER!!!
I opened the thread thinking it was going to be another "they're ruining the character" ness, but DAMN IT! >_<

Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on March 07, 2007, 02:14:51 PM
That aside, I think it's a ploy.  I really hope it is.  Having seen the teaser for Omega Flight and the fact that there is a guy with a shield whose silouhette suspciously resembles Cap's and the fact that it looks to be Sharon Carter who shot him.  I suspect this is the case.

They'e already verified that character is John Walker The US Agent.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 07, 2007, 01:54:46 PMi must be the only one on the boards, not really bothered or angry about this

Well, me too, but I don't read Captain America so it may not count for much.  :unsure:

This does remind me of the death of Superman schlock train that rolled through town a decade or so ago. Just a lame stunt to get a short-term bump in sales and it was poorly done and unmemorable. It's little surprise that the real Superman fans were so POed. I mean, who was Doomsday anyway? Just a no-name villain with no history. It would have at least shown some respect for the character if Superman had died at the hands of a real Superman villain, rather than some brawler made up on the spot.

(FWIW, many people would argue that the DoS series eventually resulted in some interesting things, like the new "Supermen" who arose while Supes was thought to be dead. And, some would even say that Doomsday himself, largely through addition of some backstory, became an interesting villain.)

But the premise that an archetypal icon like Superman or Captain America is really going to die and stay dead is silly and an insult to the intelligence of the readers. And, though they seem unwilling to acknowledge it, it's a straightforward duping of the non-comic media for free air time. Though now I know better, I was actually shocked at the time of DoS that alleged real news shows were taking it seriously - I remember a segment on a cable news channel (I am pretty sure it was CNN) with the banner across the bottom "THE END OF SUPERMAN?". Puh-lease! The only question the interviewer should have been asking the DC spokesperson was whether DC was going to offer refunds to subscribers to the S-books. (Sorry, but I have issues with puff-piece journalism.)

BTW, I don't like seeing heroes die, but I am not opposed to the story concept on principle. It makes sense that people engaged in such dangerous business are going to see some casualties. The suspension of disbelief is that it doesn't happen more often.

Moreover, I have nothing against the publishers trying raise sales and make a profit. There is nothing wrong with that. But, stunts that weaken the bond between the readers and the character and which diminish the character's iconic status ultimately work against it, IMO. A badly executed stunt will increase short-term readership for a few months, but alienate the long-term readers will annoy many of them enough to swear off the book for years. And then what do you have? You can only pull these stunts very rarely. And if these circulation drives succeed only in getting the "shock" reader, you are building a fickle readership that will abandon the book anyway, since they aren't going to be shocked by Cap dieing in a Very Special^® Fourth of July issue if he just died in a Very Special^® Christmas issue.

But, I don't like cheap tricks and I especially don't like cheap tricks that assume idiocy on the part of the audience.

Cap will be back. Six months? Two years? Whatever. He'll be back. Whether or not the fans will come back with him is another question.

One point to make.

Some folks talk about this being the last straw and how they're going to stop buying Marvel this instant.

Others think that's a silly reaction, to stop reading comic books based on one event in one title.

And I would agree with the second point of view.  If the death of Captain America is the only thing sticking in your craw, then just stop reading the titles that featured him and move along with the ones you do like.

Some folks take that second point of view and extend it to everyone who seems anti-Marvel.  That, I take issue with.  I didn't stop reading Marvel today.  I didn't quit on a whim.  I agonized over that a long time ago, because I love what some of the Marvel characters used to stand for.  I wish I could come back.

But... I hate the world that Marvel is building.  I hate how dark and oppressive it is, and it's only gotten worse since I stopped buying Marvel.  DC looks like it's headed in the same direction, unfortunately, and a lot of the Indy titles started out that way to begin with.

If Heroes don't equal Hope, if they don't stand for something hopeful and life-affirming, then they aren't Heroes and I'm not wasting any emotional angst over them.

This might be the last straw for a lot of people who were hoping that Marvel would turn things around and have had their hopes dashed for the very last time they're willing to stomach.  It might be the last straw for people who have decided they have better things to spend their money on than the latest shockfest.

You want to keep reading what Marvel is putting out?  Fine.  I hope you can respect those of us who made rational decisions not to.

Exactly BB.

Quote from: BlueBard on March 07, 2007, 03:53:43 PM
One point to make...

Read his whole post, I just wanted to make it clear that this is answering him.

Yeah, I totally agree with you despite being a marvel hater. And I agree that marvel is getting consistently darker, which is the reason I enjoy it a lot. For the same reason I enjoyed DKR, The Crow, Watchmen and other similar books. For the same reason my favorite movies are stuff like "happyness" and "amores perros" which make your casual movie watcher want to kill himself.

But geez... dont make it out that people are persecuting those who dont like marvel. In this forum its preaching to the crowd... almost everyone here wants comics to be the way they where 20 - 30 years ago and they find a lot of that in DC (except for the occasional sexual assault and bullet in the head) and I say "more power to them". Personally I like a darker marvel and if anything Im just opposed to them publizising the death of Captain America. I think it's a great political statement and a story with potential but by making it public it blurs the lines of integrity (and let's you guys yell "sellout!") while limiting options. I think they should totally go the DKR route. Captain fakes his death, he goes underground. But if he's dead-dead I'll keep reading a lot of marvel and a little DC, I mean it's not like Nextwave, Exiles, American Virgin, Astonishing X-men and similar comics where never published because one hero got shot. I dont over react about comics, and it bugs me when people act like somebody just went back in time and ruined their childhood over a current story in a pulpy action and shock oriented medium.

For me at least, it's not about my childhood, it's not about nostalgia, it's not about fond remeberances....it's about the way I view the world.  I hardly read mainstream comics when I was a kid, because the only place I could find them, the grocery store, never had continuing series.  They'd have an issue of Captain America one week, Batman the next, and Sonic the Hedgehog the week after that. 

If you know how I feel about these issues and you don't like what I have to say, you might as well not bother reading what I've written below.

[spoiler]Anyroad, I respect that some people have a penchant for darker stories....although I think that's a symptom of the cultural movements that I oppose (don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that there is something wrong with people who like these things, just that, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need to glorify our darker sides.  I like stories like that occasionally too).  However, those people can have Vertigo, or The Ultimates, but there is no where for people like me to go.  Our favorite characters are dead, whether they've taken a bullet to head or not.  They are dead because what was once a medium that encapsulated the heroic ideal is now a money making machine.  In a fallen world the things that sell are, perhaps, those things that are the worst possible influences on us.  We shouldn't be reading stories about rapists and murderers, we should be reading stories about sacrifice and self denial, because it is these things that make us better people..........[/spoiler]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a rant..... 

What I'm seeing here is a vicious cycle.  Marvel (and to a lesser extent of late, DC) put out a big shocker event to get publicity.  People come and buy that issue, but aren't avid fans and don't bother and buy anything else.  Meanwhile, former fans are put off by this.  After a bit sales are lower than before, so they arrange another big event and the cycle repeats itself.

So maybe they are gaining short term, but they're losing big long term.

DC does seem to be trying to correct this sort of thing, however, Blue Beetle's recent death notwithstanding.

Just to clarify what I was saying. My issue is simply that it bugs me when people decide to give up on an entire line of comics on a principle. Obviously if you don't enjoy or aren't interested in something then you shouldn't pick it up.

Marvel isn't all Civil War and death, of course the remaining titles may simply not interest you, and that's fine. But I don't like the idea that someone wouldn't even take a look at them just because Captain America died. It's not really fair to the creators involved.

Why shouldn't it be about a principle? Captain America is the character that brought me into comic books going on 25 years now and gatewayed me into other marvel titles. The pervading theme so far in the "616" universe to me is a pretty bleak one. I've been stuggling with this feeling for a bit of time now in comics across the board.......people like what they like....I've got no quams with anybody liking or wanting to read and see darker and more "realistic" stories; god bless ya! However for me I can't and don't want to imagine a Marvel U without Steve Rogers Captain America. I know in my heart of hearts the character will be back....but back for what? A fresh take? A new angle? If that's what down the road then leave Steve Rogers dead. Today for me was a bit of a punch in the gut....I felt bad...all day long. I guess that Marvel has been successful in evoking that strong and visceral of an emotion from me and a lot of other Captain America fans whom I'm sure had a similar reaction...so hat's off to ya Marvel Comics. It's not an easy thing for me to say that "I'm done with Marvel" and all those great artist and creators work for that company but today that's the way I feel. I feel as though they taken a thing that meant something to me, dipped in sugar and then threw it in the dumpster. So today I can't support the company....I don't know what tommorow will bring.

Quote from: BentonGrey on March 07, 2007, 12:47:54 PM
Hey now, I have the same disgust for both companies...I'm an equal opportunity curmudgen.  Seriously, I doubt that many people are just beating up on Marvel, it's been said a couple of times that DC does the same kind of things....I mean, look at Supes!

Look at Superman and Wonder Woman... he's under mind-control by killer Max Lord, who threatens to use him as a WMD.  Wonder Woman kills Max in a moment of extreme lazy writing... and subsequently mars her character as a symbol of peace, freedom and equality.  One moment of sensationalist, weak plot driven greed ruined a 60+ year old super heroine.

Superman on the other hand doesn't stand up for his "best friend" in court.  He lets her reputation take the fall, all the while whining about how she killed a guy (when short years ago they had him murder three captive criminals).

I want to stick with my back-issues for now, until people who actually care about heroes (and not dollars) start writing comics again.  But I am liking the new JLA so far.  Not loving it, but liking it.

is gay that capt died by snipe &lt;_&lt;

I really didn't mind Cap getting shot. I'd be pretty mad if Punisher actually took up the mantle.

Give the sheild to Patriot, he can hold onto it until Cap is eventually brought back.

This actually seems to me as a fairly logical conclusion to the story.

Civil War has always been about one thing: Fear. If the populace is scared enough they will give up their comfort levels to feel safe. In this case, they're afraid of rampant superheroes, and the casualties that reult from it. They're not afraid of the villains doing this--they're the villains. They're supposed to be evil like that. So, to placate the population that would eventually outlaw them completely, they (Tony and Reed) instead throw them a bone -- making themselves official. It's a good compromise, and I'm sure, always intending it to be temporary, until the citizenry relaxes.

Opposing this lack of freedom is the symbol of Freedom itself: Cap. In the end, he sees this isn't about freedom. It isn't about the law. It's not even about doing what is right. It's all about throwing the people a bone. So, he surrenders. and gets assassinated. He is never beaten. He is never taken down by a superior force. He is not crushed by an enemy. He chooses to stop fighting, and is made a martyr by a cowardly act. No glory in that, because Cap is not Thor. Thor sacrificed his people on the altar of glory, and what did it get them? Nothing but "Designer Imposter" Thor. (And if they can clone him, why not Cap?)

I predict that Cap's death will make people see that the law is unjust, and it will lead to it being repealed. Then he can come back and be welcomed as a hero again. A Symbol of Hope and Liberty reborn with the  fight against injustice. Iron Man understands this. He's willing to play the bad guy, knowing the eventual outcome will be beter for it. He does what he does because it is better to have Legal heroics then Fascism and slaughter with Sentinels. All of the X-men future stories featuring Dead mutants also prominently feature dead Fantastic Fours and Spidermans. The Anti-mutant sentiment does indeed affect all those with powers, even non-mutants. Reed and Tony know this all too well. That's why they speak out against Mutant Registration and champion Mutant rights. It isn't even comparable to superhero registration, because of the inherant racism involved. The Superhero Registration Act even affects those without powers, like Hawkeye and Punisher.

In closing...


people, relax already. You're playing into their hands. This is what they want; Controversy. Like most things in comics, this too shall pass.

I assume, from what may be trust in Bru, that SHIELD is involved. Involved to the point of keeping the real Cap hidden with Nick Fury, and sending a Life Model Decoy in his place.

Not everyone who writes at marvel are jerks. One major Joe Q caused event is not enough to get me to stop buying marvel. Not even three major Joe Q inspired events. I have faith that there are some writers who will reverse this whole mess.

it was actually Bru's and Tom Breevort's idea to kill him,  if you read the Joe Q interview at CBR, it really puts things into perspective.
i'm really looking forward to fallen son now, after learning what its about.

Quote from: BentonGrey on March 07, 2007, 02:13:56 PM
In Memorium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45WtQ9BqSM

good find.

Quote from: Podmark on March 07, 2007, 07:13:09 PM
Just to clarify what I was saying. My issue is simply that it bugs me when people decide to give up on an entire line of comics on a principle. Obviously if you don't enjoy or aren't interested in something then you shouldn't pick it up.

While this event may only affect one or a few titles it is indicative of the way Marvel does business.  If you don't like the way a company does business, why should you not refuse to buy their product?  I think it's perfectly reasonable to "boycot" the company if you disagree with their business model.

Now I stopped buying comics years ago.  It really became a price thing with me - I found it really hard to justify $2.75 and issue, especially when my monthly pull was on the order of 20 titles.  I can't say I've missed them all that much, really.  I do enjoy spending the afternoon reading graphic novels in the bookstore or library, though.

Dude, the People at Barnes and Noble must hate you.

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on March 08, 2007, 06:46:31 AM
While this event may only affect one or a few titles it is indicative of the way Marvel does business.  If you don't like the way a company does business, why should you not refuse to buy their product?  I think it's perfectly reasonable to "boycot" the company if you disagree with their business model.

I tend to see things from multiple angles so its usually difficult for me to completely understand boycotts.

Was the decision to kill Captain America a creative decision or a business decision? Both of course but there are different levels. I honestly do believe that the people involved do believe they are going to tell good stories, but the stories they are going to tell aren't always going to interest everyone.

But that's not really my issue, what I'm really trying to say is that not not everyone at Marvel is a part of this. My only true example that I can think of is again Spider-Girl. This title is entirely detached from the Quesada regime both story-wise and creatively (with the exception of the decision to relaunch to a #1) and the title stands for entirely different things than most other titles in the publishing line. There really is nothing I can think of that Quesada's Marvel could do to ever make me consider dropping it. Now if the quality of the book dropped, or I found myself uninterested in it, then yeah. But at the moment those things will have nothing to do with Quesada's inner creative circle.

And the truth is that there are other books and creators that are similar to it, and I just find it unfair to drop them simply because Captain America died (and all the other stuff thats going on). Essentially I find it to be about boycotting an entirety of things when really there's only a specific group you have a problem with. Kinda like boycotting all branches of a restaurant because the manager at one location was rude to you. You could make the rationalization that by buying any Marvel book your paying into Quesada's pocket - and maybe you are, I'm not sure how individual title sales are divided up into the company, but I do know that you would be cutting into the paycheck's of the creators of said individual title that you enjoy. And remember that this is all on the basis that there is still something you enjoy at the company.

Can someone verify the accuracy of this? It was on Wikipedia, which is dreadful for accuracy, but I wanted to get a quick catch-up on Cap's activities from the past two years or so.

[spoiler]"Through the Winter Soldier and Falcon's immediate action upon the attack, it is revealed that the assassination was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones; and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr. Faustus, was the person who shot Rogers in the stomach. Sharon is later contacted by the Skull's other operative, Sin, who uses a trigger phrase to give Sharon her memory back, making her realize she has killed the man she loved."[/spoiler]

I haven't read it personally, but everything I've read online (which is significant) is in agreement.

Quote from: cripp12 on March 08, 2007, 06:05:10 AM

Quote from: BentonGrey on March 07, 2007, 02:13:56 PM
In Memorium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45WtQ9BqSM

good find.

Thanks Cripp.....I thought it was pretty fitting.  I REALLY want to get a hold of that movie.  For years I've had a vague memory of its existence from seeing a scene or two when I was a kid, and now I've finally tracked it down.

I think it's quite possible that Captain America isn't dead, actually...

[spoiler]
As, in the issue, he isn't dead when we last see him, we're only told later that he died.  Also, in Civil War: the Initiative, Ms. Marvel makes the claim that he's alive to Spider-woman
[/spoiler]

I stopped collecting comics in the mid 90's. I've read a few graphic novels since and I have to say, Comics ain't what they used to be. They are just a big pile of the smelly stuff. I was really cheesed off at DC for killing of Supes, then to add insult to injury they turned him into a damn energy being. Marvel I never really had a gripe with, but I have now. Killing off Captain America/Steve Rogers is so lame. Marvel, you must really be struggling to make a living, thats all I can say and if you do bring him back, that will be just as lame. Remember Dallas? Well these so called writers must have loved that storyline when they were younger.

Quote from: Talavar on March 08, 2007, 12:49:47 PM
I think it's quite possible that Captain America isn't dead, actually...

[spoiler]Uhm.. Tal, The issue shows his body in the morgue with red blood staining the sheets in the last few pages of the issue and an autopsy will be done in the next issue which confirms that it's Steve Rogers. They even show a glimpse under the above sheets to reveal that his eyes are wide open and quite lifeless. Whoever was shot in front of the courthouse is definitly dead. What Ms Marvel told Jessica was just information to calm her down and allow the SHIELD agents to capture her - but it will probably be 2 years before we know what actually happened once Steve's body was taken away after he was mortally wounded. Especially since 2009 is when the Captian America movie is to be released and what better way to bring back winghead then with the hype of a major motion picture.

What I'm going to love to see is Thor returning and discovering that not only Black Goliath was killed by an imposter of himself but Captain America was murdered at the end of the Civil War and that Tony Stark was responsible for it all. Forget the Hulk War coming... Blondie is going to be mighty ticked off and nobody wants to get a God angry.[/spoiler]

- CrimsonQuill

Hmm.... Thor... Hulk... maybe some kind of original avengers lineup against stark?

Oh btw... I've been reading tons of articles about suspended animation used to keep somebody with extreme blood loss alive... and since the Cap is no stranger to suspended animation It is also possible that his body might achieve a super low metabolic state and at some point when healed he'll just come back to life. You know... as a comic book pseudo science exuce of course.

Maybe it was a Skrull.

Quote from: Flamehead on March 07, 2007, 09:29:45 PM
is gay that capt died by snipe &lt;_&lt;

What?  A homosexual killed Cap?  If not, you'd better edit your post, buddy.

:angry:

Quote from: RTTingle on March 07, 2007, 09:02:48 AM
And Marvel just keeps giving me a reason not to buy their comics...

...way to go guys. Snuff an icon with a snipers bullet and not a heroic act.

When you start having a lack of respect for your own characters like that... why should I have any for them either?

Exactly how I feel. Not much to do though. You can only write and complain so much and I'm already not buying Marvel.

Quote from: Podmark on March 08, 2007, 07:27:17 AM

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on March 08, 2007, 06:46:31 AM
While this event may only affect one or a few titles it is indicative of the way Marvel does business.  If you don't like the way a company does business, why should you not refuse to buy their product?  I think it's perfectly reasonable to "boycot" the company if you disagree with their business model.

I tend to see things from multiple angles so its usually difficult for me to completely understand boycotts.

Was the decision to kill Captain America a creative decision or a business decision? Both of course but there are different levels. I honestly do believe that the people involved do believe they are going to tell good stories, but the stories they are going to tell aren't always going to interest everyone.

But that's not really my issue, what I'm really trying to say is that not not everyone at Marvel is a part of this. My only true example that I can think of is again Spider-Girl. This title is entirely detached from the Quesada regime both story-wise and creatively (with the exception of the decision to relaunch to a #1) and the title stands for entirely different things than most other titles in the publishing line. There really is nothing I can think of that Quesada's Marvel could do to ever make me consider dropping it. Now if the quality of the book dropped, or I found myself uninterested in it, then yeah. But at the moment those things will have nothing to do with Quesada's inner creative circle.

And the truth is that there are other books and creators that are similar to it, and I just find it unfair to drop them simply because Captain America died (and all the other stuff thats going on). Essentially I find it to be about boycotting an entirety of things when really there's only a specific group you have a problem with. Kinda like boycotting all branches of a restaurant because the manager at one location was rude to you. You could make the rationalization that by buying any Marvel book your paying into Quesada's pocket - and maybe you are, I'm not sure how individual title sales are divided up into the company, but I do know that you would be cutting into the paycheck's of the creators of said individual title that you enjoy. And remember that this is all on the basis that there is still something you enjoy at the company.

I find NOTHING good in present marvel. They killed Cap but also for years have done nothing but defile their classic characters. I never tryed spider-girl and its a pity if she would get nailed in the fallout but more than worth it to me. Any boycott is really silly to me anyway because I almost get physically sick when I read any modern Marvel. Truth to tell all the real characters died long ago.

Quote from: Podmark on March 07, 2007, 07:13:09 PM
Just to clarify what I was saying. My issue is simply that it bugs me when people decide to give up on an entire line of comics on a principle. Obviously if you don't enjoy or aren't interested in something then you shouldn't pick it up.

Marvel isn't all Civil War and death, of course the remaining titles may simply not interest you, and that's fine. But I don't like the idea that someone wouldn't even take a look at them just because Captain America died. It's not really fair to the creators involved.

Then they shouldn't have been stupid enough to kill the legend. I loath the idea that they've taken great characters and turned them into drek. Marvel is like a TV show that has gone on too long. It would be be better for it to disappear before the magic is completely forgotten. If they hate the characters so much they should stop publishing them and use new characters for their sad little universe. Captain America is the soul of the Marvel universe now we know it has no soul.

Quote from: BentonGrey on March 07, 2007, 06:57:43 PM
For me at least, it's not about my childhood, it's not about nostalgia, it's not about fond remeberances....it's about the way I view the world.  I hardly read mainstream comics when I was a kid, because the only place I could find them, the grocery store, never had continuing series.  They'd have an issue of Captain America one week, Batman the next, and Sonic the Hedgehog the week after that. 

If you know how I feel about these issues and you don't like what I have to say, you might as well not bother reading what I've written below.

[spoiler]Anyroad, I respect that some people have a penchant for darker stories....although I think that's a symptom of the cultural movements that I oppose (don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that there is something wrong with people who like these things, just that, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need to glorify our darker sides.  I like stories like that occasionally too).  However, those people can have Vertigo, or The Ultimates, but there is no where for people like me to go.  Our favorite characters are dead, whether they've taken a bullet to head or not.  They are dead because what was once a medium that encapsulated the heroic ideal is now a money making machine.  In a fallen world the things that sell are, perhaps, those things that are the worst possible influences on us.  We shouldn't be reading stories about rapists and murderers, we should be reading stories about sacrifice and self denial, because it is these things that make us better people..........[/spoiler]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a rant..... 

It wasn't a rant it  resounded to my inner truth.

I think the "Fallen Son" series, not to mention the ongoing Captain America title, will really show whether Marvel has a solid story behind all of this, or if it's all just hype.  As always, time will tell.

Since I'm still not buying Marvel comics, I'll have to find out secondhand (probably here) whether they pull it off successfully or not.

I think we get the point that a lot of fans are outraged by the event.  I'm not going to beat on that dead horse anymore, if you'll pardon the morbid expression under these circumstances.

At this point, I'm interested in what Captain America meant to the fans and how his fictional death affects them.  I'm also interested in speculation about what it means to the Marvel Universe as a whole.

I have to confess that I was never a huge Captain America fan.  But still, the fact that he stood for moral values means something to me.  Also, his presence in the MU was sort of a comfortable certainty... even if you weren't specifically following him, you KNEW that he was out there fighting for truth and justice.  You never doubted in him.

Now that he's dead... well... that comforting presence, that strength, isn't there anymore.  No matter who they put in the uniform, there's going to be room to doubt that he will fill Steve Rogers' boots and carry the shield honorably.

didnt get as my shop was sold out
but after reading the reaction here and on many other forums, this doesnt really bother me. people are getting to annoyed and over reacting with every little thing that happens now be it in movies or comics.

people wonder why we as fans of this mediums have a bad rep, take a look in the mirror. we do nothing but moan and complain about everything and are never happy

And then, we have the comicbook fans who take every opportunity to whine about other comicbook fans...

Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on March 09, 2007, 05:54:20 AM
And then, we have the comicbook fans who take every opportunity to whine about other comicbook fans...

cheap shot

 Its my thought that the morally upright and larger than life characters like Cap and Thor have to die for the present ink dark age of Marvel to work. That even written as poorly as they often are their existance promises something greater that can't be allowed. I don't complain unless there is something to complain about. The industry has  a bad rep because the stuff it produces now is bad. I am quite happy with most of the movies actually because they get the spirit of the charactrs right more often than not and show infinitly more respect for them.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 09, 2007, 06:04:50 AM
cheap shot

;) I'm just saying that, in this case at least, comicbooks fans are responding to what they perceive as the mistreatment of a character they genuinely love and respect. Captain America has a long tradition of heroism and defending the common good, and as one of the few remaining prominent wholesome role models in comics, it's a shame that his character is being jerked around and generally not put to better use. For truly enthusiastic followers of Captain America (or anyone else, for that matter), why is it so unreasonable for them to express their distaste or outrage?

But in all fairness, yes, Captain America is Marvel's intellectual property, and they can do whatever they wish with him. Nevertheless, they should bear in the mind that a character with roots extending back as far as Cap's, the thousands of readers who've invested time and regard in his adventures won't appreciate having things turned topsy-turvy just so Marvel can grab some headlines and move a few more copies of their titles.

Quote from: BlueBard on March 08, 2007, 10:42:08 PMI have to confess that I was never a huge Captain America fan.  But still, the fact that he stood for moral values means something to me.  Also, his presence in the MU was sort of a comfortable certainty... even if you weren't specifically following him, you KNEW that he was out there fighting for truth and justice.  You never doubted in him.

That's pretty much exactly how I felt about Cap. Never a huge fan, and frankly I always found it a little annoying when writers would treat him as the Greatest Hero in the Universe- I strongly believe that Marvel shouldn't have a single "greatest hero". On the other hand, I've always had a lot of respect for Cap, and even found Steve Rogers a likable character (depending a little on who was writing him). I never had any trouble considering him ONE of the greatest heroes in the Marvel Universe- and, considering his relatively low power level (aside fromt the shield, of course), that's impressive enough.

I do definitely have a problem with current trends at Marvel. It's not entirely the "darker feel" thing- Marvel always had a dark element to it (certainly moreso than true Silver Age DC ever did), and, so long as that darkness was simply one element of a rich and varried universe, I think it added, rather than taking away from, that universe. I do kind of think it's out of balance these days, but the main problem I have with Marvel- and DC, as well, at least to some extent- is that things are in a constant state of "being shook up". There was always such a thing as change within the Marvel Universe- to some extent, at DC, too, even in the Silver Age. However, most of the changes that happened were organic, character-driven changes, and there was usually some sense of a temporary "status quo" from which things could be changed. Now, it seems as if most changes are made purely for "shock" or "coolness" reasons, and as soon as one change is made, things change completely again.

Just want to make one point about comics being "about making money". When Roy Thomas first introduced the Vision, he immediately became THE most popular comic book character among fans. For several years, he ALWAYS won "most popular character" awards, and many fans wanted to see him in his own series. Had this happened now, in the '90s, or even the '80s, teh Vission would have immediately started guest-starring everywhere (promenently displayed on the covers), would have recieved his own series, and, these days, would have been made a member of every hero team around at the time. Instead, Roy Thomas wanted to keep telling the Vision's story entirely within the pages of the Avengers. He felt that was the best way to use that particular character. Of course a comic book company wants to make money, and of course profit has to be an element of their motivation, but it doesn't ahve to be the sole or overriding motivation. A desire to tell good stories, and a love and respect for the characters, should, in my opinion, be every bit as important.

Of course, this is all just my personal opinion. The fact is, for the most part, I haven't been buying comics for a long time now. If many people like the stuff Marvel's currently doing, that's great for them. However, I think there was a wonderful quality to the Marvel Universe in its "classic" period- mid-'60s to mid-'80s, I'd say- that I miss. I would love to see a version of the Marvel Universe that had that quality, but was also simultaneously a little more sophisticated, a bit higher-quality on the writing (don't get me wrong, some of it was up there, but some wasn't), doing new things with those old ideas...  If Marvel was like that, I would probably start buying them again...

Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on March 08, 2007, 08:30:59 AM
Can someone verify the accuracy of this? It was on Wikipedia, which is dreadful for accuracy, but I wanted to get a quick catch-up on Cap's activities from the past two years or so.

[spoiler]"Through the Winter Soldier and Falcon's immediate action upon the attack, it is revealed that the assassination was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones; and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr. Faustus, was the person who shot Rogers in the stomach. Sharon is later contacted by the Skull's other operative, Sin, who uses a trigger phrase to give Sharon her memory back, making her realize she has killed the man she loved."[/spoiler]

That's accurate although:

[spoiler]It leaves out a key plot point.  Before Cap is shot, Nick Fury, Sharon Carter, and the Winter Soldier are about to execute some sort of plan.  It's not revealed what they intended to do but it's derailed when Crossbones fires.  That's why they were there in the first place.  Presumably the Falcon was in on it too but that's not completely clear.[/spoiler]

BTW, I mentioned elsewhere that I'm not yet convinced Cap is really dead.  I just saw something else that could support that theory.  Apparently, the next issue of Cap doesn't come out until May 23, the same week as the last issue of Fallen Son.   It could be that Marvel doesn't want Cap #26 to come out before Fallen Son is over because it reveals that Cap isn't really dead or it suggests that he'll somehow come back soon.

I called the comics shop today because I was heading out there (the mall its in, that is) today, so I figured I'd see if I got a copy, considering I already have the series on my pull list and have for months. It was the only book I had in (not surprising, since I picked up my books last week). Went and got it, and:

a. I got the variant cover.

b. The guy running the register said they put the book on the stands and they sold out within an hour and a half!

I just got back from doing my running for the day, but am in no hurry to read the comic. The reason I was out at the mall in the first place was to pick up a book I ordered last week that came in yesterday, and I'd much rather read it. (For my fellow wrestling fans here, the book is the `The Death of WCW' book)

And yeah, with the next issue not coming out until late May, I'm expecting some sort of major swerve.

One thing about the comic, though?

[spoiler]Dr. Faustus better make sure no one knows he was involved, because if he does he's going to have the Punisher and Winter Soldier all over him like white on rice, and since both have no problems with killing......[/spoiler]

If there is a replacement Cap, there are only two people I'd even consider accepting as a replacement, and even then only on a temporary basis:

1. Sharon Carter (as long as she looks like a female version of Cap instead of like American Dream - hair showing is okay, but I hate the changes they made to the costume for AD's version)

2. Winter Soldier (ONLY if he doesn't kill people....the people involved in Cap's death being the only exceptions)

3. Nick Fury (just because it would be screwy - especially if he smokes with the mask on)

Cap with a cigar would be kind of funny.  I've lost track of Nick over the years, does he still use those weird needle guns?

Personally, I think most of the characters best suited to be a new Cap would refuse to do so; for the same reasons I said the Falcon would refuse.

DK

I finally did read the comic, and I'm convinced its all going to be one big swerve. Why? Many reasons:

[spoiler]

1. Sharon being brainwashed by Faustus and being the shooter? I don't buy it. I know the comics where she was brainwashed by Faustus before came out in the 70's (or early 80's), and the way Marvel-time works its only been a few years, but don'tcha think that she'd have undergone brain scans, conditioning and other things since then that would have either detected or eliminated any further effects of Faustus' work? I doubt S.H.I.E.L.D. would reactivate an agent who had been brainwashed without taking precautions to make sure they're not a sleeper agent or otherwise still under any effects. Sharon's reaction at the end could very well be her acting, in case whatshername or any other Red Skull agents are around.

2. I doubt that they'd take Cap out in front of a mob of people without taking security precautions preventing things such as what happened from happening. It could very easily be an LMD that was shot, while the real Cap was whisked out secretly out the back door in disguise. Since they can be made to pass for human, I assume they can also be made to bleed like a human.

3. The next issue of Captain America isn't scheduled to come out until May 23, which is around the time the Fallen Son stuff ends. If Cap is really dead, wouldn't it make more sense to have issues of the actual series as part of the storyline, focusing on Winter Soldier, Sharon and Falcon?

4. If Sharon actually did do it, then Faustus having her know she did it is a big mistake, because even if she doesn't know he brainwashed as part of her memories of the act being restored, he should be the number one suspect. And heaven help him if Winter Soldier or the Punisher finds out, because he'd better have his last will and testament ready.

5. Cap being `dead' beats Cap being put on trial before what would probably be a kangaroo court makes a lot of sense, as he'd be able to go into hiding or adopt another identity and then pop up as Cap with an `I told you so' when the Registration backfires or something else (like someone hacking it) happens that proves the anti-reg side was right.[/spoiler]

Someone probably mentioned this, but it's pretty much what they did with John Walker before he became the USAgent. Seems like a great way for Fury to get him on the inside, re-partnered with Bucky, etc. BTW, Cap was always my fav, right up there with Spidey, Logan, and the Punisher (as far as MU goes).

A Cap\Fury\Winter Soldier underground\covert ops team would be awesome. Get Union Jack in there as a U.K. liason, and it would really be cool.

Oh, and considering my 3 favorite Marvel heroes were (assuming he really is dead) Captain America, Iron Man and Spider-Man (and Spidey's been messed up for over a decade), that should tell you why I'm reading mostly DC books right now.

Quote from: GhostMachine on March 09, 2007, 12:19:34 PM
The guy running the register said they put the book on the stands and they sold out within an hour and a half!

Marking the first time anyone from outside the comicbook community has stepped into a comic store since 1994. Speculation! Speculation! ;)

Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on March 10, 2007, 07:13:42 AM

Quote from: GhostMachine on March 09, 2007, 12:19:34 PM
The guy running the register said they put the book on the stands and they sold out within an hour and a half!

Marking the first time anyone from outside the comicbook community has stepped into a comic store since 1994. Speculation! Speculation! ;)

Yep, and there are already plenty of idiots coming out of the woodwork. Someone actually paid $310.00 + almost $8.00 in s & h for both covers on eBay! The guy at the comics shop said the most he had heard of anyone paying so far was $70.00, but that was just for one book (no, I don't know which cover).

This is why I stick to the Exiles...

now, I can see Stephen Colbert as Captain America.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 07, 2007, 10:58:59 AM
just want to throw something out there, i always find it funny when people moan that there doing it all for the money


well duh of course

there's companys, the main goal is to make money. as an artist myself i always found it laughable that people  moan and say others sold when they 99.9% of the time would do the same

Hey there that sounds wrong,how many company's have to have courtesy,i cant raise my prices insanely high and be rude to my costumers,i cant spit on them,i cant call them names
I cant kill off (fire) my drivers and leave my patients on the side of the road and make them miss their surgery appointments, can i? just so i can raise my rates and prove to them they NEED my services,thats why there is competition,Money is a part of it,but Moaning is our right and everyones right.The customer is always right

I am a writer part time and i find that although people have "sold" and others do it,does not mean i will or it is right-i find it laughable
Me personally i dont value money that much,i take happieness and honesty, loyalty,over money any day and i will die with pride and no doubts that i was a human being who cared for my fellow man-alot like CAPTAIN AMERICA

Enjoy your laugh

I agree...We pay for the comics, we can b!t@h and moan all we want.  Do they have to pander to our needs?...No...But many times I think they should listen to longtime fans...As opposed to pissing them off.

I too have never been a big Cap fan, but I'm getting tired of Marvel's policy of tearing down/demonizing/killing off every one of their mainstay heroes...Like killing the New Warriors and Alpha Flight just because they weren't huge successes (they just weren't handled correctly, is more like it)...Killing Thor off, The Spider-Avatar Spider-Man bull$h!t, Captain America's (Cheap shock, attention-grabbing, media frenzy-generating) death, Etc....  How much longer are they going to use these lame "shock and awe" tactics?  Here's a novel idea...Get some writers who can actually write great and enduring comic stories.  I know some may disagree, but Marvel's Civil War was a piece of crap (IMHO)...Characters who've been friends and allies for many years, suddenly turning on each other at the drop of a hat (and many acting incredibly out of character).  It was all done for cheap shocks to sell comics.  I'd rather have a crossover with all the heroes working together to fight some massive threat, then having them at each other's throats with so very little motivation/provocation ("Registration's the law."...My backside!).

Tony (as written) has sunk really, really low this time (lower than he ever was as a drunk or even during his "Armor Wars" days)...Recruiting "scum of the Earth" villains and murderers to hunt his friends down?...Helping to create a clone of a friend (Thor) that ends up murdering another friend (Bill Foster/Goliath/Giant Man II)?...I find his actions totally repulsive and reprehensible.  I never liked Iron Man...But Marvel has made me to totally despise the character now....Nothing will redeem him, in my eyes (If I was one of his friends and resisted the Reg and witnessed all the things he did for the "Law"...I'd never forgive him).

I also believe killing Cap is a monumentally stupid idea...Sure, they can bring him back...But can they bring him back and keep their integrity intact...Well, that's been gone for years, so I guess not.  I feel Jo(k)e Quesada needs to resign now and let Marvel achieve the greatness, I know it can find again...He has done nothing over the past 10+ years but grasp at straws to make something, anything work (slowly destroying Marvel's greatest characters in the process).  Marvel is a sad, sad echo of it's former self.

Dana

I don't know if this has been touched on yet (I haven't got the stamina to read this whole thread), but it seems to me that everyone is so focused on the Civil War and it's ramifications vis-a-vis Cap'd death that they are overlooking something important: The Red Skull's plot.

If you've been following Captain America in his own book (as opposed to Civil War) then you've seen that the Red Skull has been putting a plan against Cap into place for several months now. We've seen the outcome of that part of the plan that involved Dr. Faustus and Sharon Carter, but there's still whatever use the Skull has put Arnim Zola to (Cap 23) and that "one use" device he got from Dr. Doom (Cap 22).

That leaves me with a few of thoughts:

1) That this thing is Civil War related is more of a timing issue than anything else. It's not really a Civil War plot line at all, but a Red Skull plot (which is why it the death was in Cap's own book). It just ties neatly into the Civil War situation.

2) The Skull's plot has only just started to unfold and it wouldn't do much good for him to gloat over Cap's lifeless body at what amounts to the first stage. Where's the satisfaction in that? Not to say that Cap isn't dead, but that doesn't mean the Skull plans to keep him that way.

3) Marvel is taking the opportunity of Cap's death to examine and explore the ramifications of what the death of that specific character would have on the Marvel universe as we know it. That's not an indication that his death is supposed to be the end of the character, just a chance to tell some interesting stories about it.


So basically what I'm saying is that this whole Death of Cap thing has gotten way way bigger than it was probably intended to. It's just another continuing storyline, not something meant to be final like the death of Barry Allen. Let's see how it all plays out.

---RENEGADE

Even though I've been doing a whole lotta "crying in my beer" over his death. I whole-heartedly agree with ya there bro. I've said it before and I'll say it again.."in Bru' I trust"! He been telling one of the best Cap stories (I've ever read) so far and I'm interested to see it unravel all the way through. Who know's what's gonna be at the end (Steve Rogers I hope!).