:banghead: I was wondering which one you guys thought could beat whom in a fight between the following characters.
Minuteman vs. Captain America :thumbup:
Liberty Lad vs. Robin :blink:
Manbot vs. Ironman :huh:
Alche-miss vs. Scarlet Witch :D
El Diablo vs. Human Torch
The Ant vs. Spider-man :wacko:
Eve vs. Wonder Woman :P
Bullet vs. Quicksilver :cool:
Man O' War vs. Aquaman (in water)
Much as I like Freedom Force, and much as I tend to believe that most matches discussed in "versus" threads could really go either way, I think the Marvel and DC characters, in every case, have a big advantage. They're general more powerful (often much more poweful) than the Freedom Force characters, and they're all much more experienced.
The only ones I'll comment on are the Robin and Aquaman matches. Robin would COMPLETELY wipe the floor with Liberty Lad, enhanced strength or not, while Aquaman would crush Manowar. He's taken a direct hit from a bolt of lightning before and walked away. He is much faster, probably a little stronger too.
I would definatly go with the Mainstream characters here, the Freedom Force team only has a few years experiance behind them, and none of them are know for their fighting skills (their more known for their abilities).
By in large I agree, the mainstream heroes have a decided edge. However, I think Bullet and Alche-miss could hold their own very well, if not even win, in their respective match ups. Alche-miss is much more direct combat oriented than Scarlet Witch (especially in pre-"Choas magic" hoo-ha days) and Quicksilver is just a putz.
Sorry to say it but mainstreams pretty much have it here. I agree with all what Yuan has said, but I also think El Diablo would beat ol' torchie, since he also has enhanced strength.
El Diablo (especially in FF1) can really nuke stuff up. HMM... so as soon as I get a chance I'll run this versus in the danger room and see what it has to say.
I tend to agree that El Diablo may actually be more powerful than HT. But, in a one-on-one battle, it's a tougher call since neither really ought to take much damage from fire attacks. ED's HOT TEMPERED attribute is a real tactical disadvantage, though.
In general, the DC/Marvel heroes are more powerful. They weren't really designed with balance in mind.
shouldn't bucky vs liberty lad? :huh:
Torchie can also absorb fire from other sources, as well as have a limited control over them. Whether the control is only over normal flame or not, and whether he could affect Diablo's flames, is another question. In comic bookdom, I think Johnny would have the edge just with the slightly higher resistance to flame damage, and the much higher experience. For instance, knowing that his flames won't do much direct damage to ED, Johnny would be more apt to use his flames to weaken supports & make things fall on ED, or line him up with a fire hydrant that he conveniently melts open. Being around Reed that long can make just about *anybody* fight smarter. :D
Can Johnny Storm be harmed by fire at all? El Diablo can be (even once he gets the Absorb Heat defense, it's only 50-60%). (Or did they change that in FFvTR?)
ED has his PD vs fire at the "very frequent" (75%-85%) level in FFvT3R, and he is made of fire 100% of the time (so he only takes 25% damage from fire attacks that get through, even when stunned, entangled, etc.). His PD is an absorb, too, so he gets energy from flames that hit his PD. Realistically, that's probably the same basic PD Johnny would have.
Also, in game terms, ED would have the same control ove fire that HT has. In other words, to simulate HT's powers, you would want to use FFX, and ED has FIRE CONTROL. ED has no ability to absorb flames remotely, but Johnny wouldn't either because the game doesn't allow it (unless there is a variant on METAL EATER that does this).
Meanwhile, ED can explode things from a distance, throw a variety of fireballs, create fire walls and cages, etc. In addition, his active defense protects against ice and bullets (which I don't remember if HT can consistently do or not). I think I would give HT an area fire attack as well, as he can make himself burn hot enough to cause damage.
Anyway, I actually think ED has just as wide a variety of powers as HT, if not more, but the main point I made earlier still holds for both of them: most of their best attacks are fire-based and both are either totally or highly immune from those attacks.
I was actually thinking of something similar when reading the LSH thread a few days ago with regard to ED and Sun Boy. The odd thing about Sun Boy is that his heat is really radiative heat like intense beams of sunlight, rather than flames per se (he got his powers in a fusion power plant mishap). So, I am not sure if I might give him a radiation beam as well...
Of course it goes without saying, Wonder Woman pwnes Eve.
Haha, little bit, yeah.
Maybe a more fair battle would be Huntress or Poison Ivy vs. Eve?
How about these:
Martian Manhunter vs. Mentor?
Professor X vs. Mentor?
Red Tornado vs. Microwave?
Unless ED vs. HT became a fist fight (in which case ED would clearly have the advantage due to his enhanced strength), I think this fight would keep going on forever.
CA would beat MM because of his (far) superior combat experience, but maybe MM could put up a fight because of his superstrength and great strength of will (he does have three hero points...). Also, if MM managed to sucker punch CA with a 300-percent Vanquish, it would be lights out for CA, but I doubt such thing would happen.
In the first game it was stated that Man-Bot's ful power can open a hole in the universe (or something of the like), so I think he can beat Tony Stark. Not sure, though.
AM beats SW because SW doesn't have much variety on the offensive department (something AM does) and AM is very resistant to the stuff SW can pull off.
Bullet beats QS. QS isn't all that fast (for speedster standards) and Bullet has superstrength and resillience to boot.
Current Aquaman beats MW. Classic does not.
LL is too green to beat Robin, and even if he wasn't, he doesn't have much good stuff anyway.
Eve vs. WW goes without saying.
SM beats TA. I think they are even on the strength department and TA is tougher, but I doubt he can hit Spidey with a good one.
Both Martian Manhunter and Prof. X beat Mentor easily.
Microwave beats RT because he would just use Genetic Damage on him, making him defenseless against everything, teleport behind him and desintegrate him with a bunch of rad bolts.
I gotta' say, I would still give the match between MW and Aquaman to the classic version. Even without the water hand, he's just as strong, and a good deal more durable. Plus, being a quasi-sea creature, MW would likely be effected pretty easily by Arthur's telepathy.
Wow! :thumbup:
I think Mentor could totally take Martain Manhunter but getting plowed by Professor X. :D
It would be unfair if you had MM vs. El Diablo...because of his fear of fire. :cool:
I think El Diablo and Human Torch would just be vying for control over the same element. The fight would go to whoever has the greater force of will... blasting each other with flame only fuels the other's energy (ED would take minor heat damage since he's not 100% immune that I know of, but he just has to catch HT to put a hurtin' on him with his super-strong melee attacks.)
Experience-wise, you have to consider that HT has had a much longer publishing history, like all the mainstream characters, so it's an unfair advantage to give him that. But El Diablo growing up in the Barrio, would have some more street-smarts and possibly more melee experience. Human Torch has probably gleaned some knowlege of physics from working with Reed.
I can't decide on Martian Manhunter vs. Mentor, both have so many powers... if J'onn can attack from a phased state without being hit by electron beams, he might gain the advantage.
I have a few:
Supercollider vs. Juggernaut
Supercollider vs. Thing
Eve vs. Hawkeye
Minuteman vs. Uncle Sam (golden age)
Supercollider MIGHT have a chance against Thing, but he'd be flattened by Juggs. I also think that Hawkeye would turn Eve into a pin cushion.
I don't know if Hawkeye could beat Eve. She can cause stasis on him and then arrow the cr*p out of him. She is probably tougher than Hawkeye, too, so she could cast empathy and let all the damage Hawkeye inflict on her also hurt him, and since she can take more punishment, she would win in the end.
Quote from: Blitzgott on March 07, 2007, 08:18:47 AM
I don't know if Hawkeye could beat Eve. She can cause stasis on him and then arrow the cr*p out of him. She is probably tougher than Hawkeye, too, so she could cast empathy and let all the damage Hawkeye inflict on her also hurt him, and since she can take more punishment, she would win in the end.
Uh, no. Hawkeye wouldn't even have to hurt Eve to beat her- just trap her with a net arrow or use a knockout gas arrow.
Then again, I still think ALL the mainstream characters mentioned here would have the advantage, in every one of these fights.
I'm not sure why various people seem to think Wanda's offensively weak, by the way- She single-handedly beat the Enchantress,
twice- and that was in her ultra-weak days, before she recieved training from Agatha Harkness (which happened, what, early-to-mid-'70s?). She's also beaten Ultron, incidentally...
Quote from: Alaric on March 07, 2007, 09:28:50 AM
Uh, no. Hawkeye wouldn't even have to hurt Eve to beat her- just trap her with a net arrow or use a knockout gas arrow.
Likewise, Eve can just cast a bunch of vines to trap Hawkeye. And since she doesn't even need her bow for that, even if Hawkeye trapped her with a net arrow first, she could still trap him with her vines, leaving the battlefield with nothing but two heroes struggling to escape from their respective traps. But yes, Hawkeye has the edge because, like you stated, he can end the fight instantaneously with a knockout gas arrow. I think the one who takes the initiative first will be the winner.
Quote from: Alaric on March 07, 2007, 09:28:50 AM
Quote from: Blitzgott on March 07, 2007, 08:18:47 AM
I don't know if Hawkeye could beat Eve. She can cause stasis on him and then arrow the cr*p out of him. She is probably tougher than Hawkeye, too, so she could cast empathy and let all the damage Hawkeye inflict on her also hurt him, and since she can take more punishment, she would win in the end.
Uh, no. Hawkeye wouldn't even have to hurt Eve to beat her- just trap her with a net arrow or use a knockout gas arrow.
So what? Eve has the same stasis attack that Hawkeye does and hers is a direct, so he can't dodge it (of course, that's a minor difference, since Eve wouldn't be dodging too many of Hawkeye's arrows either). She also has a direct blind power, which means that an affected opponent can't use any ranged attacks against her. Meanwhile, since we are clearly giving characters FFX attributes and power swaps, then Eve can grow bush barriers, animate trees and have them attack, etc. How such a matchup turns out is very much dependent on the situation.
[edit: ninja'd by Blitzgott on this point]
Quote from: Alaric on March 07, 2007, 09:28:50 AMThen again, I still think ALL the mainstream characters mentioned here would have the advantage, in every one of these fights.
I wonder if we are thinking about these matchups in a reasonable way. There is no value in speculating how a mainstream hero would do against an
FF hero by comparing the powers the mainstream guys have in the comics versus the powers the
FF heroes have in the game. We have to think about how the mainstream heroes would be represented
in the game and go from there. And, remember that we can't design characters going by what they do rarely in the comics; it has to be what they do regularly, just as the
FF heroes are designed to with powers they will use in a typical mission. (Otherwise, for instance, we know that Mentor can keep Time Master on ice indefinitely, Man-Bot can cause an explosion that takes down a 100 HP building in one shot, etc.)
For instance, SA Aquaman may have a telepathic ability to communicate with and control sea animals, but there is no way for him to use that in the game (at least, there is no easy way to have a mind control attack only affect certain enemies), so it doesn't matter. Similarly, Professor X is a great mentalist in the comics, but when we make his HERO file, how much can he do that Mentor can't?
I still think this contest goes mostly to the mainstream characters, but we at least ought to be fair in the comparisons.
Regarding Prof X vs. Mentor:
Professor may have psychic defenses, but Mentor could conceivably win due to his more physical powers. He can create physical damage effects like his electron beam, and also has the advantage of flight (although this battle could take place on the Astral Plane... in which case, Charles is master)
Aquaman vs. Man O' War: Aquaman summons sea life to distract MW, whose electric ranged attacks barely phase Aquaman (he could also command some electric eels to disrupt the charge, or form a protective barrier.) Manny can only take so much from a school of pirahnas or some great white sharks thrown at him.
This is exactly what I am talking about...
Quote from: Revenant on March 07, 2007, 10:21:12 AM
Regarding Prof X vs. Mentor:
Professor may have psychic defenses, but Mentor could conceivably win due to his more physical powers. He can create physical damage effects like his electron beam, and also has the advantage of flight (although this battle could take place on the Astral Plane... in which case, Charles is master)
Rather, in which case we have no idea, since we don't know what Mentor's powers are in the Astral plane.
Quote from: Revenant on March 07, 2007, 10:21:12 AMAquaman vs. Man O' War: Aquaman summons sea life to distract MW, whose electric ranged attacks barely phase Aquaman (he could also command some electric eels to disrupt the charge, or form a protective barrier.) Manny can only take so much from a school of pirahnas or some great white sharks thrown at him.
Aquaman summons sea creatures who die since we're not at sea in the game. If we are at sea, then we have no idea how Man'O'War's whirlpool, water jet, and storm-related powers are magnified and what other powers and abilities he might have. Meanwhile, I didn't know that Aquaman was actually immune from electrical attacks, but that would be a big advantage...
Not immune per se, but resistant. Like I said, he was hit by a bolt of lightning while rescuing a ship at sea, and, although it hurt, he shrugged it off.
Once again, consistency matters here. If he is regularly shown as being resistant to electrical damage, then that seems reasonable (taking into account that he has decent health anyway, so one wouldn't expect a single lightning bolt to take him down). The question is, do you think the best design of his HERO file uses one of his attribute slots on CHARGED? (And, I don't know. I don't follow the character regularly enough to see him show any resistance to electrical damage.)
Maybe not charged, but the new way that the material type wood is set up gives electrical resistance (it's one of the only changes to the material that I actually like, and ONLY in Aquaman's case because it saves me an attribute slot). So, I make him made of wood, which fits, because it gives him a weakness to fire (since he has to worry about dehydrating, I like how that works), and he is also resistant to electricity, without having electrical damage on his attacks. I would say that it's somewhat consistent....but then again, Aquaman's comic career has been soooooo badly butchered, it's really rather hard to say. As far as consistency, he's faster than Man 'O War, his speed being touted pretty often, most certainly stronger, lots of instances showing his strength, and also most likely tougher, another observation that I would say is backed up by his history. As far as his telepathy, well I deffinetly give him a telepathic attack that effects all comers, since he has demonstrated his ability to cripple opponents with his telepathy, although it does take some concentration.
Quote from: Revenant on March 07, 2007, 10:21:12 AMAquaman vs. Man O' War: Aquaman summons sea life to distract MW, whose electric ranged attacks barely phase Aquaman (he could also command some electric eels to disrupt the charge, or form a protective barrier.) Manny can only take so much from a school of pirahnas or some great white sharks thrown at him.
We don't really know if Man O' War doesn't also has control over sea life, since there's not a single mission in the game that revolves underwater. Also, while Aquaman has control over sea life, Man O' War has control over the sea itself. Remember when he stopped that huge wave on it's tracks with but a thought in order to save himself and Sea Urchin?
So, assuming Man O' War does not have control over sea life, what disadvantage would it give to him when he can go all Moses and split the ocean in half, taking the water from the sea life and leaving them motionless at the dry bottom of where once there was a bunch of water? Not to mention that staying away from water for a long time drains Aquaman's powers, so he would also be prejudiced if Man O' War pulled this stunt.
Also, I'm not even sure if the current Aquaman is stronger than Man O' War, and even if he is, not by a large margin. Man O' War can also fly, and therefore he can just throw electrical attacks in bunches from a safe distance and, eventually, Aquaman would be down for the count. Sure, Aquaman can throw "water blasts" or what have you, but I bet they would have little, if any, effect on Man O' War.
Ha, if it's on land, he could do more than throw water blasts, he could throw cars and trees :P Not to mention knocking him out of the sky with a telepathic attack. I mean, think it would be a good fight, but I would deffinetly give it to Arthur. I mean....after all....he IS the King ;)
Quote from: stumpy on March 07, 2007, 10:12:45 AMI wonder if we are thinking about these matchups in a reasonable way. There is no value in speculating how a mainstream hero would do against an FF hero by comparing the powers the mainstream guys have in the comics versus the powers the FF heroes have in the game. We have to think about how the mainstream heroes would be represented in the game and go from there.
How is translating the mainstream characters into game terms any more "fair" than translating the FF characters into comic book terms? The original question didn't specify either way, after all.
When did I say one was more fair than the other? It seemed to me that we were doing neither. Most of our experience with the FF characters is through the game, so we don't have much idea how they would be portrayed in the comics, which is a venue where many more things can happen. A perfect example is that, despite their aquatic natures, we don't have any info on whether Man'O'War or Sea Urchin have any interesting powers when actually in the water because the game doesn't support that environment. But, we have some experience in translating mainstream heroes for use in the game, so I think that is generally easier and requires less speculation.
But, the point is that comparing apples to oranges isn't really the best way to have this discussion.
And if we're going to compare aples to oranges, at least use the ones picked the same time.
What I mean is, since Freedom Force is from 1962, the mainstream characters should be the versions from then too. When put that way, Eve Vs Wonder Woman isn't quite so one-sided. Wonder Woman is entangled in Eve's vines, then bound with her own lasso. practically ripped from the pages of the 60's bondage-fest Wonder Woman books. :twisted:
Liberty Lad might stand a chance to 60's Dick Grayson.
Microwave vs Ma Hunkle?
1962 Human Torch could get extinguished by a strong breeze! Like the kind generated when ElDiablo misses by a mile.
Of course, Professor X, even in his chair, can move faster than Mentor.
ManBot could generate an explosion that could decimate Stamford, CT. But even clunky Grey Iron Man would wipe the floor with him.
Actually, Tombstone would do quite a bit of damage on most of the 60's heroes, if only for the possession.
I think Cable and Deadpool could take out the whole team. Nate's got a powerful built in forcefield that replace telekinesis for offensive and defensive capabilities, the very murky infonet powers that could easily shut down Microwave in a second, teleportin ability, and he's got probably the best munitions arsenal in comics. And Deadpool, will he's just there for fun.
But I agree Freedom Force should be compared to characters from the same era. And you're probably better off comparing them to the Avengers than the JLA, as the JLA tend to have more consistenly "god-like" characters on their team. I think Freedom Force could probably take down the "Kooky Quartet" team of Cap, Pietro, Wanda and Clint pretty easily.
Quote from: Podmark on March 08, 2007, 12:22:41 AMI think Freedom Force could probably take down the "Kooky Quartet" team of Cap, Pietro, Wanda and Clint pretty easily.
Hmm. A normal four-member FF team (say, Minute Man, Mentor, El Diablo, and ManBot- the first four members) vs "Cap's Kooky Quartet"? If we take the FFers from the end of the game, they certainly outpower that particular team of Avengers, and could likely take them one-on-one. However, when working as a team, the group of Avengers was surprisingly affective- they even took down Dr. Doom once...
Of course, here we come into another of those "apples and oranges" problems. The whole thing about that team was their ability to function as a team (dispite their constant in-fighting). However, that's not really a fair comparison with Freedom Force, since FF's ability to act effectively as a team depends on the skill of the individual player... I don't see any fair way to compare the two teams, frankly.
Well obviously we can't really compare. Even if the two teams really existed I'm betting one wouldn't always beat the other. It's really just speculative based on comparative power sets, capabilities, personalities, and team dynamics. It's more food for thought than anything definitive.
Actually, I think there's a big difference between a golden age team created in the 60's versus one created in the early 0's.
DK
We really should consider all of the mainstream characters as just beginning their careers, I suppose. Well, here's one for you:
Ant Man vs. The Ant
Personally, I'd give it to the Ant, since he seems to have a more innate connection with bugs, and he's got his giant ants to call upon.
Quote from: BentonGrey on March 08, 2007, 04:44:08 PM
We really should consider all of the mainstream characters as just beginning their careers, I suppose. Well, here's one for you:
Ant Man vs. The Ant
Personally, I'd give it to the Ant, since he seems to have a more innate connection with bugs, and he's got his giant ants to call upon.
Oh dude, even without giant ants the guy is a major scrapper, consistently one of my favorite freedom forcers (reminds me more of spidey) and capable of great damage output. I think he could take several Avengers, although a fight between him and cap would rock.
Ant would kick total arse :thumbup:
:D I love Captain America but I would really enjoy Ant to win.
But If the Ant fought Spider-man I think it would be a matter of whom hit whom first. :banghead:
Quote from: stumpy on March 06, 2007, 02:00:43 AM
ED has his PD vs fire at the "very frequent" (75%-85%) level in FFvT3R, and he is made of fire 100% of the time (so he only takes 25% damage from fire attacks that get through, even when stunned, entangled, etc.).
In the first game, El Diablo is made of flesh, not fire, and gets hurt by fire all the time (including his own explosive projectiles).
But then, when the Human Torch was starting out, he could only keep his flame on for a few minutes, threw tiny little fireballs instead of big blasts of flame, and would get exhausted easily and could be doused by water or wind...
Quote from: Urthman on March 12, 2007, 09:59:16 AMIn the first game, El Diablo is made of flesh, not fire, and gets hurt by fire all the time (including his own explosive projectiles).
No. Only El Diablo (MP) is made of flesh. The El Diablo you use in campaing mode is made of fire.
Edit: My mistake. All El Diablos on the first game are made of fire.
Yeah, his material is and was fire. The only difference in this regard is that his passive defence has a higher frequency now (it went from "frequent" to "very frequent"), but his active defense no longer protects against crushing projectiles.
Dang, you're right about ED. I don't know why I had it in my head the other way.