Any News of a FFF3 at all?

[yell0w_lantern]

Who said anything about demanding?

[GogglesPizanno]

I dont necessarily think making a request about source code is too unreasonable (provided its not done in some fanatical crazy way), look at what they have done with the Freespace Source code. It came about from a core group of fans asking about it for along time, and threads similar to this one on boards asking about a third title in the series.

The Open Freespace project and Battlestar Galactica project both have made substantial improvements to the game engine and turned out some really quality product....

That said, I think it needs to be more that just a couple of people asking for the sake of asking. I think you would need to get a lot of the hard core modders and coders (Dr. Mike etc...) on board so that it showed its not just a request that someone MIGHT do something with. I think you'd need to show that there is a community interest as well as people with the ability to actually do the coding work.

Another issue, is that even though the game engine itself may be old, the technology its based on is not some outdated proprietary thing. Modern games like Oblivion are still using the basic netimmerse building blocks to make current games. As a result there is a sort of gray area as to what could actually be released. I'm sure they have some kind of legal licensing to use the Netimmerse stuff which they cant legally just give out (I would think anyway).

Like Yellow Lantern said, it never hurts to ask, but I don't realistically think there is much chance of it happening.

[TheMarvell]

Wow, I didn't expect quite a large response, but that's pretty damn cool.  :thumbup:

That being said, I'm disappointed that FF3 will probably not be made, however I am not surprised. I've read a lot thoughts about the sales of the two games, and I have to say that while the content of the game (WW2) and the specific source coding and mod community might have been a factor with FF2's low sales, I do not believe for a second they were large contributors. Marketing was probably the biggest factor, followed by the simple fact that FF1 was never really that popular of a game. An underground hit, yes, hence a sequel, but I'd never call the game popular.

Here's my own personal experience with both of the games. As I said in my first post, I never heard of FF, I just bought it on an impulse buy. I saw it in the store one day and it got my interest, so I researched it online. I have to be honest, I didn't like the game at first, and my friend who bought it with me hated it. But I was determined to keep playing and I fell in love with the campaign. However, I found the games multiplayer to be pretty pathetic, and I never got into the modding community. I tried downloading skins and what not, but I just didn't know what to do with the game after I finished the wonderful campaign.

I didn't think the game would ever be popular enough to get a sequel, but sure enough it did. Once again I never heard anything about it. I just happened to come across an article on IGN about it. I didn't buy it right away though. I got FF1 for full price, and about a month after I bought it it went to the bargain bins (I dont remember how long it was out before I bought it though). Sure enough, I didn't have to wait long with FF2, as one day I was shopping at Target and to my surprise I saw FF2 on clearance for about 7 dollars. Played through the campaign again and loved it all the same.

Now from my experiences with both games, the most I ever saw for advertising was a few magazine articles. That is it. Now, it isn't the quality of the games that hurt them, because both games are virtually identical. So what was it?

It's my personal belief that FF1 made enough profit to merit a sequel because it just happened to be released at the right time. MMO's hadn't taken off yet; the superhero craze was just starting at the movies; and PC games were starting to get lower in numbers. When FF2 came out, it's competition was CoH. Say what you will, but to the average gamer, CoH would naturally be the better buy. That game had much better advertising, and MMO's are super popular right now (unfortunately). Also take into consideration other PC game competition. A superhero squad game is going to have a hard time competing with a superhero MMO, and other MMO's like World of Warcraft. People also want action games for superheros, which FF isn't. It's tactical.

When all is said and done, I just don't think the marketing was there, nor was the audience. Then again, I thought the same thing about the first game, and was really surprised a sequel was made. So that is why I thought maybe the same thing would happen again, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Shame, as FF2 had a cliffhanger ending.

[BatWing]

i don't think there might be a ff3...theres not alot of superheroes nerds out there.
i'm guessing if there were alot of buyers and fans then ken would probaly start ff3 but nah

[TheMarvell]

^there's NOT a lot of superhero nerds out there? I think it goes without saying that statement isn't true at all. Quite the opposite actually.

However, most superhero nerds want to stick with superheroes they know and love, ie-Spider-Man, Batman, etc. If not, then they want to make up their own, ala City of Heroes.

[Lunarman]

I disagree with the above statement. There are a lot of super-hero nerds out there but compared with the number of people that don't like superheroes they are rather a minority.

So, the audience is there but there's just more profit to be made by making mainstream shooters that appeal to a broader market.

[gengoro]

^I sware every other damn game announced these days, especially for xbox seems to be yet another shooter.  Not that shooters are bad or anything but man.

[Volsung]

That's a shame...
It's not only a matter of superheroes...
Freedom force is a great game aside from this subject...
Rich renewable gameplay and storytelling...
And I don't see any rivals in terms of modding...

[Xenolith]

It never hurts to ask politely.  Seriously, the worst you would get is a polite, but firm, "No!"

[Volsung]

Now i wonder if...
The best that could happen to FF and FFVTTR...would be to become 'abandonware'.
Everyone could discover it.
(Especially european countries...since € FFVTTR is incompatible with mods)

[Previsionary]

(Especially european countries...since € FFVTTR is incompatible with mods)

If I'm understanding this correctly, "Euro FFVTTR is incompatible with mods", then I'm gonna have to call "shanninigans" and say that's def not true. :P If I misunderstood, apologies in advance.

[Volsung]

I'm incompatible with that Private joke  :huh:

[GogglesPizanno]

FFVTTR is incompatible with mods

I think he means (not that Im trying to speak for him) that the Digital Jesters distribution was a pain in the backside to get set up to mod with (350mb+ download to use the mod tools) and then I think some people still had issues with it.

The Euro version was just a bad distribution from everything I remember...

[Volsung]

I think he means (not that Im trying to speak for him) that the Digital Jesters distribution was a pain in the backside to get set up to mod with (350mb+ download to use the mod tools) and then I think some people still had issues with it.

The Euro version was just a bad distribution from everything I remember...

Yup. My english is imperfect...I admit I didn't rack my brain for my sentence...

So...Abandonware could be a solution

[MyndVizion]

So.....

When does some whacky programmers decide to build FF on the xbox using the new game development tools by Microsoft?   :D

[yell0w_lantern]

So.....

When does some whacky programmers decide to build FF on the xbox using the new game development tools by Microsoft?   :D

In the immortal words of Gary Coleman, "what you talkin' 'bout?"

[Symon]

When does some whacky programmers decide to build FF on the xbox using the new game development tools by Microsoft?   :D

What would be the point? You wouldn't be able to mod for it. It would be worse than the Digital Jesters release.

[MyndVizion]

Okay, first off my comment about modding FF for the xbox was just a silly comment. But not that far off the mark really.

For those who don't know, Microsoft released XNA tools that allow joe blows to create their own games and have them hosted on Xbox Live. One only has to look at a game like Aegis Wing to see what a couple of fans can do with the tools. With the amount of talent that's out there in this community it *could* be done. With that said, it wasn't meant to be a *serious* comment.

Second, I think there are more superhero fans out there than people realize. Most people have spent some amount of time with comics in some form or fashion. I think the success of movies such as Batman Begins, X-Men 1 and 2, Spider-Man, etc shows that there's enough interest in superheroes to make anything worthwhile.

With that said, it is true that superhero video games typically struggle in this market. The reasons have to deal with horrible superhero games that have created a negative legacy. I mean seriously what *good* superheroes have been released - Freedom Force games not included....?  X-Men Legends 1 and 2 did pretty good in terms of sales. Even Marvel Ultimate Alliance did pretty good as well. However those games had much better marketing compared to FF and FFvtR.

I seriously think the problems facing superhero games in general are a) horrible track record of delivering good games, and b) not that many superhero games are every created, probably due to most being horrible to begin with. So it's a never ending cycle.

With games such as City of Heroes doing well and Marvel Online in development I have good hopes in the superhero genre and videogames. With movies such as The Hulk, Watchmen, Batman: The Dark Knight, and Iron Man in production, along with Marvel and DC's upcoming animated movies, and talks about a future Avengers movie - the future looks bright for superheroes.  Let's not forget the success of Heroes on NBC, Heroclix by Wizkids Games, Vs TCG (which is now online), the success of New York Comic Convention and the San Diego Comic Con (which sold out for the first time this past year) and the success of Who Wants to be a Superhero it seems pretty apparent, to me at least, that people enjoy superheroes. With so few *good* superhero games on the market, it seems, again to me at least, that there's a void waiting to be filled. Certainly a Freedom Force 3 could be viable with the right approach, or even a superhero game on the FF engine for that matter.

[Cyjack]

Also, in addition to the undermarketing, niche setting, and retro graphics, FFvTTR got painted as a Starforce game by the Boycott Starforce movement,  because some of the international versions unfortunately were shipped with starforce DRM.   Even though the NA version wasn't Starforced, the dreaded "list" didn't make that distinction, and a lot of people wouldnt touch the game on principle, because of the Starforce stigma.

[Symon]

Also, in addition to the undermarketing, niche setting, and retro graphics, FFvTTR got painted as a Starforce game by the Boycott Starforce movement,  because some of the international versions unfortunately were shipped with starforce DRM.

That would be Digital Jesters messing thing up again.

How my heart bled when I heard they were no more!

[rain]

I don't mean to Necropost but I just found this thread and wanted to add a couple of thoughts.

First I completely agree with Dr Mike in terms of copyrights. I was reposnsible for my share of skins and material based on other IPs for sure.... in retrospect that was a mistake of mine.

But you want to know what Irrational's biggest "mistake" of FFvsTTR was for me?

I think it was about two weeks or so after the game was released.

I bought this game the week it came out for full price. I bought it for the Mod tools. I paid about forty bucks for the mod tools and docs that are included with every copy of the game. While I never released a mod, a few people played some of the work I was doing. Work that to this day I am pretty freakin' proud of. I was slowly getting around the python scripting and was fully reskinning terrains. I was hex editing some objects (with a ton of help), and doing all sorts of crazy stuff, and eventually that all would have turned into some release.

And then very shortly after the game was released, one of this community's members figured out a way to hack the downloadable mod tools to work with the Demo of FFvsTTR.

Boom, free mod tools.

Then instructions to these hacks were passed around the community and no one said anything. Everyone who claimed they couldn't afford to pay for FFvsTTR could mod. This included several fairly "prominent" members of this community who claimed they were too broke to pay for the game but still wanted to get a peice of the modding action, be it skinning, hexing, scripting ect.

To me this was absolutely no different than someone posting links to "cracked" copies of the game. I wasn't rich or anything, at that point 40 bucks was my entertainment budget for a month. I paid for access to the mod tools, sure I liked the game, but owning the game was integral to access to the map editor, which is where my real interest was. A fair portion turned a blind eye to this until the nail in the coffin happened...

Irrational completely sanctioned the use of the instructions. A post was made that legitimized the hack and said it was OK by Irrational if people who didn't pay for the game to download the demo and the Mod tools and use them.

*shrugs*

I know it was Irrational's game. They were free to do whatever they wanted.

I went to CoH after that. A game that was more fun to actually *play* than FFvsTTR was to me. That said I enjoyed modding and skinning for FF a great deal.

Anyways at the end of the day, Irrational can do whatever they want with thier tools. As a consumer, in turn, I will vote with my wallet in the future. That vote pretty much means I would never give that company (in whatever form it takes) my money.

But hey.... that's just me. And I'm fully aware I am in a minorty.

-rain

[UnfluffyBunny]

ok, what about paying out £29.99 for the game the day it came out (that was about $60 then) for the mod tools, and then discovering that the mod tools didnt even work with the UK version, that sound a better deal to you?

[stumpy]

I agree with ips. Maybe IG acknowledged that the mod tools worked with the demo (though I don't think they did), but I don't recall them ever saying "don't bother buying the game if you want to mod".

But, the mod tools were always free. They were free for the first game and free for the second. You could get them from the freedomfans site (as you still can). The $40 was for the game (the new campaign, Rumble Room, etc.) not for the mod tools.

The fact that the mod tools didn't work with the DJ distro of the game was a much bigger gaffe in my mind. But, even then, we have to acknowledge that the vast majority of people never use the mod tools. The only "modding" most players do is to install some extra skins and meshes (and I doubt that a majority of players even do that) and the mod tools aren't needed for that.

[Metherian]

It's my personal belief that FF1 made enough profit to merit a sequel because it just happened to be released at the right time. MMO's hadn't taken off yet; the superhero craze was just starting at the movies; and PC games were starting to get lower in numbers. When FF2 came out, it's competition was CoH. Say what you will, but to the average gamer, CoH would naturally be the better buy. That game had much better advertising, and MMO's are super popular right now (unfortunately). Also take into consideration other PC game competition. A superhero squad game is going to have a hard time competing with a superhero MMO, and other MMO's like World of Warcraft. People also want action games for superheros, which FF isn't. It's tactical.

I feel much the same way.  I remember when the original FF was released.  There just wasn't a whole lot of competition in the so-called super hero genre; no games worth mentioning really.  For comic book fans, FF looked like the 'holy grail' of computer games.  A wonderful, story-driven campaign, complete with great characters and villains?  A game where you can create any hero you want?  With whatever powers you want?  Sign me up!

I remember countless hours just amazed at how fun the game was:  throwing things around, destroying buildings, experimenting with different powers, etc.  It was a comic book fan's dream come true.

But then the wave of MMO's starting mounting, and we were deluged with WoW, CoH, DAoC upgrades, and the ailing (but still going) SWG franchise.  FF just got burried by all the 'hype' surrounding these other games. 

One thing about FF I find true:  It requires a certain mindset to truly love the game.  If you're not a comic book fan, or someone who at least watches Justice League (or other cartoons), you're just not going to 'get it'.  Sure, the game might be kind of fun, and entertaining, but your interest in it will always be topical at best.

I recall trying to get friends interested in FF.  I gave them the demo.  Explained how the game worked.  Talked about how fun it was.  But this crowd--mainly FPS and MMO players--just couldn't wrap their heads around FF; they just didn't "get it"; and they certainly didn't understand why I thought the game was so cool.  To this day, they laugh at me at work, and make fun of Freedom Force, but I know they never once really gave the game a chance.  The graphics, the 'comic book style', the gameplay--it was all just 'alien' to them.

Ironically, this same crowd has seen some of the screen shots I've created from modded FF material, and have been amazed by it.  "What is that?  Some new X-men game?"  They ask the question, never realizing it's from FF, that game they 'dogged' a few years ago.

Apart from the competition problems, I think FF might have had a better chance if the 'modding' side of things could have been marketed better.  If they marketed the game as a kind of Neverwinter Nights, where you could truly create your own superhero world, I think more people would have looked into it.  Of course, copyright concerns and other pressures killed that idea before it even took off.  What I wouldn't give to see a FF franchise of games, complete with Mod Packs released every few months.  A full-fledged modding editor, like NWN's Aurora Toolset, would have been awesome!

Alas, it just wasn't meant to be ....  :(

[Symon]

The fact that the mod tools didn't work with the DJ distro of the game was a much bigger gaffe in my mind.

Yeah. To be fair, that was Digital Jester's fault, not Irrational's; but then again, Irrational chose DJ to do their European distribution for them.