The future of the Freedom Force series

[life_matrix]

Do you think that Irrational will ever produce another sequel to Freedom Force? Of course we all really want to believe they will... But rumors on the net suggest that this is now unlikely. And if they ever do produce a Freedom Force 3, I suspect we will have to wait several years.

I read how Irrational Games was aquired in 2006 by Take-Two Interactive. So it looks like now all new games by Irrational will be published under the "2K Games" label.

And at least for now all the forums over at Irrational have been taken down! They said they wanted a website that does not "completely suck" and so they've taken down their "lackluster forums" until they have "a decent plan to bring them back."
(See: http://www.freedomfans.com/forums/)

I've also read that Irrational is currently hard at work on developing BioShock, which is due to be released in August of 2007. This has been described as a "spiritual successor" to the System Shock series. From their website Irrational announced "We’re working on the sequel to one of the best loved PC franchises of all time." (This is mentioned here.)
However, it looks they're using the name "BioShock" because someone else owns the actual rights to "System Shock". Like this post says "EA owns that. And according to expert reporting by Remo, they are actually working on System Shock 3."

Also, even though it hasn't yet been officially announced, it looks like Irrational will next produce a sequel to the X-Com series. Atari had said that they would not produce another X-Com. However, Atari was in dire financial straights and threatened by Infogrames to do something, so Atari sold some of their intellectual rights. Thus in 2005 the rights to the X-COM series was sold to Take-Two.

Here are two articles that provide evidence of an X-Com sequel as Irrational's next project:

Rumor: Irrational Games Working on X-Com Sequel - The evidence seems convincing enough

Irrational Games Developing X-COM Title?

What does that have to do with the future of Freedom Force? I think when we take all these things into consideration, the prospects for FF3 don't look very good:

* Irrational Games was aquired by Take-Two
* All the forums on irrationalgames.com have been taken down
* Irrational is hard at work to finish BioShock by August
* The next big project for Irrational is likely to be another X-Com
* New games by Take-Two subsidaries will be released under the "2K Games" label

Freedom Force may be a success in terms of real-time strategy games. And it does have a huge fan base. But Irrational and other Take-Two subsidiaries have had numerous other successful games. And it looks like they have plenty of projects and franchises to keep them busy for a decade or more.

Anyway, this was just what my research turned up and I want to be realistic. I'm still holding hope that the brilliant folks over at Irrational still feels a deep fondness of Freedom Force and will endeavor to continue the line. But I'm not holding my breath.
:ff:
:ffvstr:

[Renegade]

FF was a labor of love for the folks at Irrational, but in my opinion, based on the evidence and my own experience in the biz, "It's dead Jim".


---Renegade

[Epimethee]

FWIW: System Shock 1 was created by Looking Glass, System Shock 2 was developped by IG (which include/included a number of former LG employees) for LG and EA. So EA holds the © and ™, which is why IG uses a somewhat different name and setup.

The probability of seeing a new FF game in the next couple of years is IMO very dim, especially in light of Take-Two recent problems, and the consequent decisionof their new board to review all project currentlly in the works.

With that said, that X-Com rumour is actually the best FF-news I've heard in a looong while! Apart from being a great game in itself, X-Com is also quite similar to FF in many aspects. And let us not forget that the initial plan for FF2, before FFvsTTR, was to make FF more X-Com-like.

At the very least, even if there's no FF in the pipeline, and IG's X-Com might be relatively easily moddable into an FF game. :)

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Ken was asked a while ago in an interview about Bioshock about the possiblility of another FF and he pretty much said that it was not likely ever to happen because of poor sales of FFvTTR.

As for FF's huge fan base, what huge fan base?  Seriously, there might be a couple hundred of us online and maybe a couple thousand others.

Compare that to Neverwinter Nights 1, which has tens of thousands of mods and thousands of active online players.  Compare that to Civilization III and IV, which also have an online community in the thousands.  Compare that to Starcraft, which is still selling copies and mods are still being made with an online community still in the thousands.

Let's face it, we may be a dedicated community, but we aren't very big.  There isn't a huge fan base and never was.  A decent sized fan base, yes.  FF never was a best seller, but sold well enough to be worth a sequel.  But huge fan base?  Never existed.

[Lunarman]

Even then Cat, a couple a hundred online and a couple of thousand off probs isn't accurate. My guess is that the number of people that still play FF regularly is most likely below 1000 :(

[Epimethee]

A thousand active community members is not too bad for a six-year old game + one expansion pack.

Not good enough for a sequel, but not bad.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

No, it's not bad, but it's hardly the "huge fan base" mentioned by life_matrix, and it doesn't hold a candle other old games like Star Craft and Neverwinter Nights.

[wickerman]

The best 'sequel' to freedom force is the host of user created mods - hell, Strangers is longer than FFVTTR.  Now, granted, the user made mods are not 'professional content' (tho Dr Mike's stuff might as well be!) but showing some support to the folks who continue to churn out mods, skins and meshes etc is the best way to get 'sequels' to the game.

I agree with Cat about the size of the fan base - worse some of the maybe 1000 or so folks are not really engaged.  They pop in, take advantage of mods, skins and that sort of thing and have nothing to contribute.  That isn't 'wrong' or anything, but it really makes it hard to measure the support for the game.  At the end of the day, a few hundred people 'care' the rest stop in from time to time.

With the editors and the preexisting storylines, a sequel to FF and FFVTTR is quite possible.  Hopefully a group of fans will have the time, energy and resources some day to continue the story for us all.  If not, supprt the work of the community members thus far and enjoy.  There is plenty of stuff out there...

[Previsionary]

Well, just to add on to what was already stated, FF doesn't have a particularly huge fanbase and it gets smaller on FR everyday and we're supposed to be the most dedicated fanboard. Heck, the people that frequented FFans prolly don't come here and have probably moved on since they may believe IG gave up on the game. Anyway, point is...even the number of creators and their (our?) output have decreased quite a bit compared to last year (and by A LOT compared to 2-4 years ago) and I've been noticing more and more posts about loss of motivation yet I've seen less and less posts by community members trying to support and lift up their fellow man. Sometimes it just seems that certain community members are supported more than others which is kinda a turn off.

*note* This is not an attack...just an opinion based on observations and other complaints/conversations/opinions

[Tomato]

My personal take is: Who cares? Yes, FF has been good to us, and it is still the only truly modable superhero game out there, which is why we still play it. But can anyone honestly say that if we could eaisily rip apart something like MUA and eaisily add our own characters, maps, and powers, that a single one of us would prefer FF? I know this will come off as cold, but really, FF is no more than the superhero version of "The Sims." Point at enemy, pick attack, and wait for something to happen.

At this point? FF is dead, whether there's a sequel or not. But given the sucess of games like City of Heroes and MUA, it's only a matter of time before we see something BETTER.

[wickerman]

. Sometimes it just seems that certain community members are supported more than others which is kinda a turn off.

Amen

[Epimethee]

My personal take is: Who cares? Yes, FF has been good to us, and it is still the only truly modable superhero game out there, which is why we still play it. But can anyone honestly say that if we could eaisily rip apart something like MUA and eaisily add our own characters, maps, and powers, that a single one of us would prefer FF? I know this will come off as cold, but really, FF is no more than the superhero version of "The Sims." Point at enemy, pick attack, and wait for something to happen.

At this point? FF is dead, whether there's a sequel or not. But given the sucess of games like City of Heroes and MUA, it's only a matter of time before we see something BETTER.

I beg to differ. We're not still playing FF simply because it's a superhero game, we're playing it because it's done very well within its specific context. Otherwise, all the Diablo/Warcraft/Quake/Civilisation/Whatever clones would be successful... Give good game designers some credit. ;) And personally, I'm more interested in some of the FF characters than in many of the mainstream superheroes.

[bearded]

this isn't really a freedom force post, it's more of a freedom reborn; a lot of us are still here, not because of the game itself, but the community.  and i think it's the community that brings ppl back.

[Kitt Basher]

this isn't really a freedom force post, it's more of a freedom reborn; a lot of us are still here, not because of the game itself, but the community.  and i think it's the community that brings ppl back.

no doubt ... i haven't even started the game up in a couple of years.  I stick around because I am amazed at the things you people can do.  I try to skin once in awhile, but when I look at the skins, meshes, mods, fx, etc.  I just get amazed and download for a possible future game.  Plus I love the character tool.  That is where I get my hours of entertainment.  Seeing the characters i developed in 3d ... woot!

I have always loved the idea of a superhero.  I love seeing others' ideas too ... so I stick around.

[MJB]

I haven't played Freedom Force in years. I don't own FFvsTTR.

From what we have all seen it would be a safe bet to call the future of Freedom Force more than a little grim... it's dead.

But then again that is my opinion and I could be wrong.

-MJB

[bearded]

really, the only thing slowing me down is that stupid sp2 problem.  i have patch 1.3, but it's not perfect.  character tool crashes randomly, and in ffedit, i can't use the level editor, and the sounds tab crashes ffedit.
things like this is what's really bad for the future of  :ff:.  not speaking of sequels, but merely gaining new ppl, or even keeping old ones.
personally i would ditch sp2, if i could figure out how.

[tommyboy]

As I see it, it's either a dead franchise, or it's not.
So let's look at those possibilities.
First: "It's worse than that, it's dead, Jim".
There have been no announcements regarding any plans for future games, indeed, what little has been said strongly indicates that there wont be any. FFV3R didn't sell amazingly well, and IG were bought out by a bigger company that now has its own troubles. Although superhero games and films are more mainstream and popular than ever, the Silver Age feel of FF isn't, and isn't likely to be. This means that the community will continue to exist, but to shrink, and this is the most likely future. At some point the community will probably shrink to a tipping point where FR or other sites wont be worth sustaining.

Second; "It's alive I tell you! Alive!".
Clearly FF and FFV3R were labours of love. Ken and the other staffers made a great game, and basically created this community by continuing to support it after release at the official forums. I know some people feel that the community somehow made the game, and others that IG never supported the community either enough, or even at all. But you are all wrong. So, at some point they may want to release a third game.
What form might it take? Chances are, a completely new game engine, meaning no backwards compatibility. That's both a good and a bad thing. Bad because those of us with thousands of meshes and skins will perhaps feel hard done by. Good in that  not everything will already have been done, and done well enough to discourage creativity. Lots of us no longer make content simply because we have already made all the characters we want made, or sometimes because others have made them so well theres a lot less point in redoing them.
When I started meshing for FF, I was in the shadow of Beyonder, Grenadier, Vertex, Renegade, Valandar, TexasJack and all the others. Often I'd feel I ought to stick with minor obscure characters because if you already had Beyonders perfect Thor, or Grenadier's Cap, or Renegades GLs, what was the point of me making my versions? When I started meshing for MUA, nobody else had done any meshes at all, so I could make whoever I wanted, be they popular or obscure, and know that as the only versions available, they would get used and appreciated. It made me feel a lot more like making meshes for MUA, whereas here at FR I was getting "you could do better" type responses to my work, or "you appear to have reused parts of one of your other meshes", which frankly is neither helpful nor encouraging.
So my point? If we are reset back to zero meshes and skins by a new game with a new engine, there will be more material produced than there was for FFV3R, where we were able to port over 70-90% of the old meshes, and therefore didn't need to start over.
And if they DO do a third installment, it might catch the wave of popularity that has seen lots of Superhero Movie franchises do very nicely, and might actually become a best seller..or maybe they could catch a break and get a Marvel or DC licence.

Thirdly;
The presence of NifSkope, of EZscript and FFX mean that for a fair time the community can wxperience a bit of a renaissance, as stuff that was hard or impossible becomes do-able, and people can finally "create" their own meshes and Mods without having to own 3dsMax or learn Python. This should mean that for the next year or so at least the community will continue to be active, whether the FF franchise is alive or dead. 

[Figure Fan]

Good post TommyBoy. You mesh for MUA, meaning Marvel Ultimate Alliance? Or..?

Anyway, I agree with Epimethee and find that the Freedom Force characters are just as interesting, if not more interesting than Marvel characters.

I'd like to see them create a new Freedom Force game that did things differently. Maybe a more fast-paced game much like Marvel Ultimate Alliance with better online play would help the franchise. We'll always have our thousands upon thousands of character skins and meshes for the old game. A new direction would be welcome, especially since there isn't much more that can be done with the current engine.

I remember being fascinated by Freedom Force during its first years. I'm sure everyone here was. FFvsTR was a great game with a great story. However, it didn't bring anything new to the table past the new campaign. Mesh conversion became a confusing and buggy process. Transfering old content to the new game was a hassle. It just wasn't worth it after a while, and I lost interest. Lately things have been better, but FFvsTR never received the push the FF did. It never got off the ground, really.

I truly miss the days of just having Freedom Force and an entire community creating for one game, building upon a vast collection of content years in the making. A new game is needed, one that is completely different. Its the only way to kickstart things again.

[UnfluffyBunny]

When I started meshing for FF, I was in the shadow of Beyonder, Grenadier, Vertex, Renegade, Valandar, TexasJack and all the others. Often I'd feel I ought to stick with minor obscure characters because if you already had Beyonders perfect Thor, or Grenadier's Cap, or Renegades GLs, what was the point of me making my versions? When I started meshing for MUA, nobody else had done any meshes at all, so I could make whoever I wanted, be they popular or obscure, and know that as the only versions available, they would get used and appreciated. It made me feel a lot more like making meshes for MUA, whereas here at FR I was getting "you could do better" type responses to my work, or "you appear to have reused parts of one of your other meshes", which frankly is neither helpful nor encouraging.

meh, i'm gonna get flak for this but i'm beyond caring because I feel it needs to be said...

that sounds to me, like a cop out, you were getting messages that said "you can do better" because "you CAN do better"
the fact you went for quantity over quality always irked me but meh, not my place to tell you how to spend your time, and this is not the place for me to go into my gripes.
either way, what bugs me about what you've said there is basicly your saying:
"the standards people expect at FR are too high, i'll go to MUA where they'll take whatever they're given"

yes paraphrased, but thats how I read it, and from talking to people i'm not the only one who got that impression.

*let the Syn hating commence*

[tommyboy]

When I started meshing for FF, I was in the shadow of Beyonder, Grenadier, Vertex, Renegade, Valandar, TexasJack and all the others. Often I'd feel I ought to stick with minor obscure characters because if you already had Beyonders perfect Thor, or Grenadier's Cap, or Renegades GLs, what was the point of me making my versions? When I started meshing for MUA, nobody else had done any meshes at all, so I could make whoever I wanted, be they popular or obscure, and know that as the only versions available, they would get used and appreciated. It made me feel a lot more like making meshes for MUA, whereas here at FR I was getting "you could do better" type responses to my work, or "you appear to have reused parts of one of your other meshes", which frankly is neither helpful nor encouraging.

meh, i'm gonna get flak for this but i'm beyond caring because I feel it needs to be said...

that sounds to me, like a cop out, you were getting messages that said "you can do better" because "you CAN do better"
the fact you went for quantity over quality always irked me but meh, not my place to tell you how to spend your time, and this is not the place for me to go into my gripes.
either way, what bugs me about what you've said there is basicly your saying:
"the standards people expect at FR are too high, i'll go to MUA where they'll take whatever they're given"

yes paraphrased, but thats how I read it, and from talking to people i'm not the only one who got that impression.

*let the Syn hating commence*

And people asked me why I stopped making meshes for FF...
Well, this is why.
Please don't "paraphrase" for me again, Syn.

[UnfluffyBunny]

because you dont like people telling you the truth? you just want to be appreciated?
sure thing, dont worry I have no intentions on taking the time with you anymore, Tommy.

[tommyboy]

because you dont like people telling you the truth? you just want to be appreciated?
sure thing, dont worry I have no intentions on taking the time with you anymore, Tommy.

No, because I can speak for myself.
I said what I meant, however you read it.
The excitement of MUA meshing was not/is not that people had lower standards than here, they don't. I've been asked to change or improve my meshes more there than here, despite having made hundreds here and only a couple of dozen there.
The excitement is the challenge of a new medium, of having to learn new techniques, or how to do the same things in a different way.
Of having to work out for myself every stage of making meshes for a game engine nobody had made any meshes for (except the games developers), without any art documentation, without any Max files or contact with the developers, or being able to ask Beyonder or Renegade or anyone else how to do it.
And I did that.
And continue to work to improve my meshes here and there, maybe not in the same way as you, maybe not as well as you.
I have a great deal of admiration for your artistic skills, but clearly you have some sort of problem both with my work and with me personally.

[Figure Fan]

:unsure:

But..I..like..Tommyboy's meshes. :cool:

[Previsionary]

(snip)...I was getting "you could do better" type responses to my work, or "you appear to have reused parts of one of your other meshes", which frankly is neither helpful nor encouraging.

I'm just gonna throw this out there. I'm thinking this was aimed at a comment I made ages ago (4-6 months ago) that was my opinion on a singular mesh that was way more expanded than that. If it isn't, then I'm glad to be mistakened, if it is...*shrugs*. Either way, that comment struck me as odd because most of everyone that posted in your thread *praised* you and hoped you did more meshes...so...huh? Also, it's kinda odd that you'd say that and then say:

I've been asked to change or improve my meshes more there than here, despite having made hundreds here and only a couple of dozen there.

Anyway, best of luck to you in MUA, I guess?

Back on topic, what was said earlier about the "freshness" of ffvttr is pretty much true, imo. There was barely a buzz in the creation of FFVTTR content until recently and even now there seems to be more FF1 players/content users. It's just once FFVTTR came out, so many hopes were dashed because there was barely anything new introduced at all...and most of everything that was new was basically panned by the players (ignoring scripting and such). Personally, I was hoping for a better online experience or more power options...but eh.

[BentonGrey]

I think that's stupendously unfair Syn, I've always felt that if one of the content creators here was so kind as to fill a request we should all be bloody well thankful, it's not like they're getting paid for it.  Tommyboy was a godsend for a great many of us, and if to do that not every mesh got his single-minded attention, I don't think that's such a bad trade-off.  I've seen his best work, and it really is great, but even the stuff that he simply slaps together is pretty darn good, and it makes someone happy.  If he feels like he spent enough time on it, who are we to tell him otherwise?  Obviously he spent as much time on the project as it was worth to him, and since he's the one making, I'd say that's what matters.  Not every story I write gets my undivided attention, but those that I care about most do, the rest are functional, even if they aren't great literature, and that suits me, which is what matters since I'm the one who has to pass judgement on it.

That being said, I do believe that you took that one person's comment too much to heart Tommy, most of the community love your work, and were quite happy with whatever you put out.

I'm very hesitant to press post on this, as I try my very best not to step on the toes of the true heroes of this community, and I very well may offend to of the greats right here, but I feel like this should be said.  Please take my comments in the spirit with which they are given, and that is one that sincerely hopes we can put this behind us and devote our energies back to the game we all love.

[tommyboy]

It wasn't my intention to derail this thread, or to dredge up old issues.
So I won't comment further on that.

Back on topic, what was said earlier about the "freshness" of ffvttr is pretty much true, imo. There was barely a buzz in the creation of FFVTTR content until recently and even now there seems to be more FF1 players/content users. It's just once FFVTTR came out, so many hopes were dashed because there was barely anything new introduced at all...and most of everything that was new was basically panned by the players (ignoring scripting and such). Personally, I was hoping for a better online experience or more power options...but eh.

I think it was a case of them being damned if they made FFV3R backwards compatible (not enough new in the game) and damned if they made it all-new but with no backward compatibility (we cant use our old meshes and skins).
I'd hope that enough time has now passed that a genuinely New FF game could come out and be judged on it's own merits, without being "tied to" the old engine.
Better online/multiplay might well be the best way to go should they try again, as these were one thing both FF games lacked, really.
Of course I still lean towards them not being able to do another as things stand.

But the game itself is pretty much a model for how-to make a fun, customizable game. Add some basic modelling/skinning functionality, a touch of EZ-script or module based mod making and someone could still make a Better Mousetrap.

[UnfluffyBunny]

I concede to that Benton, you bring up a very good point, so good infact, I brought it up myself over 2 hours ago...

the fact you went for quantity over quality always irked me but meh, not my place to tell you how to spend your time, and this is not the place for me to go into my gripes.

sorry to be blunt in this post, but i'd hardly call anything I have posted tonight unfair.
me and Tommy merely have different priorities.
And no Tommy, I have nothing against you personally, merely anytime anyone says anything you dont want to hear you take it as an attack, in my time here i've confronted many people about the way they go about their works and about pushing themself further (just ask toxic J how many times I badgered him about his face work), those who are open to furthering themselves I give support, those who arent I leave to their own devices.

[Midnight]

The entire issue of 'quantity vs. quality' is another issue entirely. I'd love to see it explored more fully, but this probably isn't the topic to do it in.

As for Freedom Force... I loved it while it lasted and that game gave me a circle of friends that I wouldn't trade the world for. However, for many other long standing members of the community, Freedom Force has been dead for quite a while.

The community is what's important. We've simply outgrown the aging game that brought us together.

[BentonGrey]

Well I don't know about everyone, but I certainly haven't outgrown it, and although FFvTTR's faults grieve me greatly, I still think there is almost unlimited potential there.  As long as the FFX gang continues to push its boundaries, the game will be forever new to me.  Also, I now have the posibility at my fingertips to tell a life time of stories that have been swirling around inside my head since I got back into comics.  There may be no-one left to enjoy them by the time I finish them (if I ever do), but maybe my kids and grandkids can enjoy them.  I can't really see retiring FF any time soon.  Even the original game still has life in it for me, and as a matter of fact I was just recently contemplating firing up The Strangers again.  People are still producing content, perhaps not at the feverish pace once achieved (heaven knows my own project is taking much longer than I had hoped) but it's still happening, and I think it's still very exciting. 

[Lunarman]

The community may be important but are these the first cracks?

I have my own views on this issue but I won't say them here, we don't need a full blown arguement :)

In terms of FF I've not outgrown it either, although I really want to finish my mod it's not my top priority so in a sense I have stopped playing. the last FF thing I did was play conduit's Matrix mod