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Tomato reads classic Spider-Man comics

Started by Tomato, September 21, 2016, 05:50:51 PM

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Tomato

So between recent threads and the fact that I literally have NOTHING ELSE TO DO while I'm at work (I'm working as a Phlebotomist at a Dr's office, and my average number of patients is like... 5 a day. To give some perspective on that, I can draw a single patient in less than 10 minutes, and I'm here for 8 hours a day.) I got a Marvel Unlimited subscription, and I've started reading through Amazing Spider-Man from the very beginning, something I haven't really done since I was very young. I have made it a little over halfway through issue 2, and... Ho boy.

Since I have some things to get off my chest about these issues, I figured I might as well make a thing about it and express my thoughts about each issue as I go. If nothing else, I feel like I might as well allow my suffering to be entertaining.

#1.
Spoiler
This entire issue is boring. It establishes a FEW things relevant to the Spider-Man mythos, like Jonah, but the whole thing is mostly forgetable. The entire first act is just the soap opera of Peter's struggle with finding a way to finance his home with Aunt May (something that is resolved WAY to quickly in issue 2, but I'll cover that in a bit) and while the whole John Jameson thing is cool, it waivers from a weird combination sluggish pacing and rushed plot points (Peter agonizes over helping John for a long time, but then we RUSH THROUGH him storming into NASA HQ (also his first meeting with Jameson), in like 4 panels.

Also: Peter Palmer.

Edit: So somehow I completely forgot about the backup story with Chameleon (I think because I was posting this mostly to rant about issue #2). It's... Fine? Again, there's nothing really memorable here... Chameleon has no actual powers, and his ability to mimic other people isn't really used to great effect here, since his introduction is crammed in alongside the John Jameson plot.

#2.
Spoiler
This one is much, MUCH more interesting, but it has some pretty obnoxious flaws.

First of all, the first story, which introduces the Vulture. Overall, a solid tale, and a great introduction to a staple Spider-man villain. Having him come out from the sewers was genuinely clever, and the whole sub-plot with Peter getting his job at the bugle was overall well done.

That being said... The resolution was asenine and pisses me off. A couple of photos sold to a newspaper and Peter's able to pay rent FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR!?! I don't know how things worked in the 60s, but I don't think that's how that worked, even back then. Also, the Bugle was originally "NOW" publications(which I think I noticed in issue one, but it didn't hit me until I was reading this issue)? Ok.

And then there's the second story. Aliens who are using spy cameras hidden in radios to spy on renowned scientists and world leaders.

What.

WHAT.

So you're trying to tell me that aliens capable of FASTER THAN LIGHT TRAVEL and capable of TRAVERSING GALAXIES are worried about how far along we were scientificall back in the SIXTIES!?! WHAT!?! It does not help that the spy cameras are hidden inside the radios of the time, which are as big as a modern-day MICROWAVE. This is an era where we didn't reach the MOON until 1969, an era BEFORE Cell phones existed (and I'm talking about the brick cell phones, not the miniature computers capable of fitting in your pocket), and era where computers are the size of refridgerators... THIS is the science these aliens are worried about. WHAT!?!

#3.
Spoiler
Much better. There's still some nonsense in this one (Otto, stop ranting about how you have the power of nuclear energy. You just have metal arms, you donut), mostly in that Peter is completely and totally dejected after a single defeat... When he JUST got defeated last issue dealing with the Vulture. Granted, the Vulture beating him was more a case of Vulture sucker punching him than actually matching Peter in fisticufs, but it's still a defeat.

That being said, that's really a minor nitpick in the grand scheme of things. The issue is paced well, we're down to one story per issue rather than cramming two in each, and it allows the introduction of Doctor Octopus to breathe in a way Vulture's introduction really couldn't.

Also, I didn't mention it in the previous issue, but I actually do like the whole "keep my identity out of the papers" thing Peter has going for him. It's actually a smart move, one I feel most reinterpretations outright forget about most of the time.

#4.
Spoiler
So I feel like the cracks are starting to show a little bit here... The Marvel method is fairly well documented (Stan Lee did concepts, Ditko/whatever artist would draw it, Stan Lee would come back and add dialogue). For the most part it's not really noticeable, but this issue marks the first time it really hit me as I was reading. The whole bit where Sandman SUDDENLY decides he wants a diploma (What?) is completely out of nowhere, and it is something not supported by the accompanying panels. Better to just have Sandman threaten the Principle to keep quiet, it would have been in keeping with everything else we know about the character.

That being said, there's a couple other flaws here too. We're all familiar with the suspension of disbelief when it comes to a highschool kid making a superhero costume in secret, but there's 3 panels of Peter complaining that he can't sew well and that he wishes someone else could fix his suit for him.

Peter, YOU MADE THIS COSTUME FROM SCRATCH WHILE YOU WERE IN HIGH SCHOOL. Don't complain that it's hard to patch one hole when you MADE THE ENTIRE THING FROM SCRATCH.

This kind of griping makes sense in other interpretations, such as the Ultimate one where the wrestling company that hired him actually made the suit for him, but as established, Peter MADE THE SUIT in this continuity. 3 panels of him whining that patching a hole in it is women's work (ah 60s, you sexist, sexist time period) just rings hollow.

#5.
Spoiler
I'm going to admit up front that I actually did really enjoy this issue. It's goofy, sure, but I was legitimately laughing out loud when Flash got kidnapped.

That being said, the story here is legitimately a good one... Doctor Doom summons Spider-Man using his Spider-senses (I love how Spider-man remarks how "I should have known only someone like you could do it" when Chameleon did the EXACT SAME THING in issue one.) and tries to get him to join the army of Doom, and Spider-Man webs him up, only for Doom to be like "lol, that's a Doombot." Spider-Man gets away, Doom tracks him and accidentally kidnaps Flash Thompson (who is in a Spider-Man getup to try and scare Peter), forcing Spider-Man to rescue the school bully.

To the issue's credit, I like how Spider-Man really isn't on Doom's level. He's able to keep Doom at bay, sure, but Doom has backup plan after backup plan and you get the sense that he would have actually won had the FF not shown up.

#6.
Spoiler
"I figure it won't hurt me to learn all I can about Lizards, just in case! So, I might as well start with the biggest ones... Dinosaurs!"

I know I know, what we know today about dinosaurs is FAR different than what we knew back in the 60s (and really, I only recall the giant lizards thing being challenged, at least on a public level, within the last decade or so) but knowing what we know now, that line HURTS.

Otherwise though, this was a rather "meh" Spider-Man romp. It's not a bad tale, to be sure... And the tragedy of Dr. Connors is a mainstay of the Spider-Man books (at least until retcons came, yaaaay). Still, the story suffers from a problem I don't often say about one issue stories, and that's that it feels... Long. Like, there's a whole bit at the start of the issue where Spider-man randomly fights some thieves at a dinosaur exhibit that has NOTHING to do with the Lizard story in the rest of the book... And while the line above strikes me as another case of Stan Lee changing the original intent, at least he's TRYING to make the burglar story fit in the main narrative.

Now, that's not to say the burglar story crowded out the Lizard one... Far from it. There's enough space in here for that story, AND for the lizard story to be stretched out to a rediculous level... Spider-Man has no less than 3 separate fights with the Lizard before he turns him back to normal (and despite all the padding in the rest of the issue, he whips up a miracle cure in a single panel? Really? You couldn't give that point a bit more attention and save us some padding elsewhere!?!) on top of the whole encounter with the burglar.

daglob

I read someplace that the first couple of Spiderman comics had what were basically inventory stories that would have appeared in Amazing Adult Fantasy, where they would have shared space with something like "The Terror of Tim Boo Baa".  I read most of the first issues (originally read #11, then #9 and #10, and continued monthly from there) in annuals or reprint comics in the '70s. When The Essential Spider-Man was published, I got a chance to re-read them for the first time in years.

At my advanced age ;), I could see the flaws, but there was something there, something that still spoke to the 10 year old kid in me.

Tomato

That doesn't surprise me, though I will say issue 1 feels like a single 2-act story (Stan liked his split up acts in early marvel books) as opposed to 2 separate stories meant for multiple issues.

As for the stories themselves... I riff on them, but honestly, I don't mind them as much as some other early marvel books. Issue 3 is legitimately decent (Ock's ranting about how he's "atomic powered" aside) and I have FAR less issue reading these than certain other books from the era (I must have attempted to read early Lee/Kirby era X-men like 10 times, and I don't think I've ever made it more than couple dozen issues in). That being said, I am going to continue riffing on some of the more silly aspects of the books.

Silver Shocker

Daglob, not surprised to hear you say that. When I saw this thread and remembered the original Tinkerer story and its weird little twist ending, the comment that popped into my head was that it felt like something that should have been in a horror anthology comic rather than Spidey, and I can totally buy it if that were the case. Incidentally, when the Tinkerer returned, over a decade later, in Amazing #200 if I recall correctly, they nuked that twist ending from orbit and gave it a significant retcon that almost seemed to be taking the urine out of the original story.

Tom, I do agree with you that the Lee-Kirby era of X-Men was a bit of a chore to get through - compared to Spidey and Avengers, it was by far the weakest. Even early appearances of characters like Magneto and Juggernaut just felt a little bland in comparison. I actually still have volume 2 of The Essential Classic X-Men from, probably close to 10 years ago, and haven't gotten around to reading it yet.
"Now you know what you're worth? Then go out and get what you're worth, but you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers, saying you're not where you want to be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that, and THAT AIN'T YOU. YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT!"
~Rocky Balboa

daglob

They all look better if you were ten years old in the mid '60s.

And at that time comics were generally considered children's literature.

Tomato

Children's literature that has more words to read per page than comics written today for adults.  :P

That being said, I don't fault the tales for the dialogue or childishness of the era, so long that the stories they tell hold up. I feel like the problem I personally have with early-era X-men (problems shared by people in that era btw... X-men was the first book Lee and Kirby dropped and started just reprinting early issues for over a decade, and the only reason it lasted as long as it did last is because a lot of female readers really liked it) is that it really doesn't have an identity all its own for a long time.

The main draw of the X-men is that they stand for diversity... Racial diversity, sexual diversity, whatever. "Protecting a world that hates and fears them" as the mantra goes. But 60s era X-men features even less diversity than the Fantastic Four (5 white men to one white woman), and the whole world "hates and fears them" thing isn't even a thing until a good ways into the series. Early issues of the book feature Iceman getting a ride from an ice cream truck to the Xavier Mansion because he's a superhero, for goodness sake. Spider-Man was more persecuted than these guys!

And really, that lack of either a distinct voice for the team, or a distinct voice for the members of that team is what really hurts the book. Powers aside, most of the original X-men have little to no voices of their own (Beast and Iceman are pale reflections of the Thing and Human Torch for most of the early issues, but outside of his rivalry/bromance with Iceman, Beast is just kind of a brute in early issues... And Angel is just forgettable, and seems to exist soley to fight Cyclops for Jean's affections). Easily the most unique and interesting character in the book is Cyclops, and the fact that I just wrote that in a sentence should tell you how bad things are.

spydermann93

#6
There were quite a few odd moments in those early X-Men comics like when the Blob led his old circus pals to attack the X-Mansion (I don't think that the artist had ever seen a gorilla before) and when Magneto tried to kill the X-Men by launching them into space in a hot air balloon :lol:, but it was all in good fun.

And yeah, I totally know what you mean about the X-Men's personalities. It sure took a while for them to become fleshed out. Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, Beast; all of them were completely interchangeable. Magneto seemed fairly fleshed out. The actual standout was the Blob who had his character defined from the start, though that's kind of cheating since he was pretty flat (irony?). Quicksilver had absolutely NO characteristics than "I must protect mah seester!". I mean, he's still like that now, but sheesh was it glaring in the early issues. :wacko:

HarryTrotter

It was the 60's.Aliens and goofy villains are a staple of the time.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

#8
Starting on day 2 of Classic Spider-Man with issue #7, the return of the vulture (from now on I'm gonna be grouping every six issues into a single post, so as not to clutter the thread)

#7.
Spoiler
Nothing too large to say here... We have another "panels don't match the dialogue" moment with the Vulture apparently stumbling into a diamond store by complete accident (he was clearly going in that direction in the panels, jeez), but it's not too obnoxious. Overall, solid story... I like how Vulture adapted his tech not to be taken down by Spider-Man, and again I see some clever uses of powers that we really don't get in a lot of modern books. Nothing outstanding here, but good enough that I don't feel it deserved to be skipped over like it apparently was in "Chapter One"

#8.
Spoiler
So this is another two-story Spider-man issue, with the first being the introduction of the Living Brain, and the second a rather bizarre tale about Spider-Man fighting the human torch.

The first story is pretty straightforward, if a bit of 60s camp. Living Brain has had an interesting place of late, so it was cool to see where it came from. I do find it amusing that the crooks wanted to steal it so it could calculate odds of horse races and such, especially in today's world where AI has made some pretty startling predictions about horse races, the Oscars, and any number of other things. The fight with Peter and Flash was good too, and even though it might jepardize his SI, I feel like if he hadn't been able to fight him in a controlled setting, Peter might have seriously hurt Flash later on.

The second story is... Weird. I don't... Hrm. Like, ok, I get that we've had a LOT of cameos so far in the series, but this whole fight between Peter and Johnny seems right out of nowhere. It's an amusing fight, sure, but when the rest of the FF shows up to calm things down and Peter is like "I'll beat up all a yas!" It really paints him as almost mentally unstable.


#9.
Spoiler
Man, if the previous issues hadn't hammered it home by now, issue 9 REALLY makes it obvious that Betty Brant was Peter's main squeeze in the early days. It's absolutely bizzare to think about today, because we're at the point where both Gwen and MJ have become such an integral part of Peter's backstory that they keep getting shoehorned into his high school years.

Speaking of high school, we're FINALLY starting to see a shift in the relationship between Flash and Peter. Yeah, Flash is still a jerk... But getting his butt handed to him by Peter (even if everyone else believes Peter cheated) has him questioning his actions. It's a question he dismisses IMMEDIATELY, but I'm fine with a slow burn... People don't change overnight.

As for the main story... Meh. Aunt May gets sick and suddenly needs a surgery, and while the opening scene with Peter swinging past everyone because his aunt is the most important thing in his life is amusing, the rest of it is just... Boring. As much as we make fun of the trend in the films to make her younger and younger, if it stops stories like this from being the norm... I'm 100% ok with it.

As for Electro... He's ok. At least he's given a name (two appearances and I still don't think Toomy has one) but we don't get much of a backstory except "he was hit by a powerline!" As though that gives him superpowers? Like, I know being a mutant became an easy out later on, but I honestly feel like Electro would have benefitted from being a Mutant whose powers were awakened by the surge of electricity (much like Ultimate Doc Ock was reconned into being a mutant after his arms were destroyed). He's just kind of boring, even compared to Vulture (who, again, I don't think even has a name yet) because at least Vulture showed some interesting battle tactics.

#10.

Spoiler
Haven't finished the issue yet, but I had to stop for a minute because WOW, you self centered jerkface Peter. After getting roughed up by the Enforcers trying to help Betty Brant, Peter asks her what they wanted... And Betty lies to him, because she doesn't want Peter to know about her brother's gambling debts(which I don't think we know about in the series yet technically, but I do have SOME background in comic history). Peter then is like "I thought Betty cared about me, but she lied! She must not care about me at all!"

THIS FROM THE GUY WHO DRESSES IN A SPIDER-COSTUME AND DOESN'T TELL HER ANYTHING ABOUT HIS OWN LIFE!

Like... Wow Peter, YOU of all people should be able to understand why someone would want to keep a secret.

As for the rest... OMG, the character that was just introduced in the same issue as the Big Man... IS THE BIG MAN.

#11.
Spoiler
Hmmm... Honestly, I went into this one having heard a bit about the resolution, as I stated above... And while I do like that they had a plotline going from one issue into the next, it did seem a bit rushed... Not horribly so, since they were dropping hints to it a few issues ago, but after hearing about how LONG certain mysteries were stretched out (Crime Master, Green Goblin, etc) having stuff like the Big Man and Betty's brother resolved in a couple of issues just feels... Really rushed.

Now granted, part of me is used to the modern era of decompressed storylines (where one page of these monsters is probably equivalent to half an issue in today's world) but even by the standards of the time, I feel like some of these stories should have been allowed to breathe a bit. A good example of what I mean, from the same comic mind you, is the relationship with Flash. They very easily could have hit the almighty reset button after the Flash v. Parker boxing match, and even gave themselves the opportunity to do so... But even though their relationship isn't exactly great, Flash actually took Peter aside last issue and told him to watch his back because he was worried about what the Enforcers would do to him. There's legitimate character growth there, and it's the kind of thing I wish would permeate into other stories.

Still, credit where it's due here... While I'd heard the whole "Betty blamed Spider-Man for her brother's death" thing and was prepared for the soap opera drama that was going to bring... The actual resolution is a lot more sensible. While she initially blamed Spider-Man, the ACTUAL reason Betty wants nothing to do with him later on is because even though she knows it wasn't his fault, she associates Spider-Man with the night her brother died... And that's not too unreasonable.

daglob

Regarding #8: this is the precedent for Civil War  ;)

Tomato


daglob

At one point it was said that Max Dillon was hoilding onto some wires that ran to a couple of giant spools. The coiled wire producing an electromagnetic field, the lighting, and the electrical lines combined to give him powers.

Metagene, maybe? :)

HarryTrotter

Quote from: daglob on September 23, 2016, 03:40:31 AM
At one point it was said that Max Dillon was hoilding onto some wires that ran to a couple of giant spools. The coiled wire producing an electromagnetic field, the lighting, and the electrical lines combined to give him powers.

Metagene, maybe? :)
Actually,a flashback in The Gauntlet shows Magneto trying to recruit Electro but he refuses to believe hes a mutant.And he isnt,but he also is.He was a third species or something,I dont really remember the details.

In newer times Betty dated(still dates?) Flash.Again,funny how that worked out.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

daglob

Quote from: Spade on September 23, 2016, 03:20:55 PM

Actually,a flashback in The Gauntlet shows Magneto trying to recruit Electro but he refuses to believe hes a mutant.And he isnt,but he also is.He was a third species or something,I dont really remember the details.

Maybe he's an Inhuman.

HarryTrotter

Seeing that was never expanded upon(as far as I can remember),I dont think it isnt really canon now.And I dont remember the story that well,but I think Electro was kinda like the missing link between humans and mutant or something.
Anyway,that was at least 5-6 reboots ago.And we got a new Electro recently.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Tomato

#15
With a much better costume I might add... But I digress. Back to comics!

#12.
Spoiler
I... Honestly don't have much to say about this one. I knew about the gimmick a LONG time ago (Peter getting unmasked by Doc Ock and everyone thinking it was just Peter being noble is one of those classic Spidey moments we see over and over again.) so the rest of the issue is just kind of... There. It's a solid story don't get me wrong... And Ock is easily my favorite classic villain... But there's nothing much to say about it other than it was a good story and I like how they do play up how Peter didn't really STOP Octavious so much as avoid dying.

#13.
Spoiler
Oh hey, ANOTHER Spider-Man impersonator running around out there. That's original.

I'm sorry, but having been spoiled by the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon (which had Mysterio working WITH Chameleon when he did it and then having a completely separate episode related to the rest of the plot) this whole issue was just kinda lame. I'm not a HUGE fan of mysterio (he's a spider-man staple, and he's been done well a few times, but a lot of the time he's just around for the prerequisit Sinister Six fights.

That being said... People often comment about how JJJ's hatred of Spider-Man often reaches cartoonish levels, but I gotta say... the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man is an absolute jerk to JJJ. He's CONSTANTLY assaulting the dude physically, leaving him dangling on the ceiling or leaving webbing in his chair... Stuff that might seem funny when you're a kid, but is actually no better than the bullying Peter's recieved for most of his life. And yeah... If I was physically assaulted on an almost weekly basis by a costumed vigilante, I'd go out of my way to tarnish him in my paper as well.

#14.
Spoiler
So I was most interested to read this issue, in light of some of the rumors that have gone around about some of the goings-on behind the scenes... Mainly surrounding the falling out between Ditko and Lee over the issue. I've actually heard two distinct rumors about Ditko's choice... The first that it was supposed to be a nameless criminal (which he had done in the Crime Master story prior to leaving the book) and another that the culprit was supposed to be the ill-fated Ned Leeds (which Stan Lee disliked because we already had another reporter turn out to be a crime boss). I was curious if Leeds had been introduced in the same issue, which would have added credibility to that theory... But unlike the "Big Man," they were wise enough not to introduce any new characters in this issue. This COULD be work in favor of the "evil is faceless" theory, but I'm hopeful they were ust playing their cards close to their chests.

That being said though... Wow Ditko, what were you thinking with that monstrosity!?! For those who don't know what I'm talking about, APPARENTLY the Green Goblin did not start out flying on a glider... He started out on a mechanical "Broomstick" which is not only as goofy as you'd think is is, but also defies the laws of physics. There is not a panel of that issue where Green Goblin appears to actually be riding the thing, because in almost ever panel his but is clearly hovering at least 4 inches above it.

That being said, in hindsight, I like that the first plot involving Green Goblin (and I'm taking the position that he always was Norman Osborn even though Osborn was not actually created until a few issues before the unmasking) involved a movie studio. Norman's always been a rather theatrical guy, so I like the idea of his first plotline involving a heavy handed dose of that theatricality.

daglob

I haven't read them in awhile, but I think they introduced Norman in one issue and unmasked him as the Goblin the next.

It would have been great to have him around a few issues, and someplace show Peter at his home, and in the background is an open door and you can just see a mask on the wall if you look real hard. Reeeeal hard.

The broomstick was hilarious. It did make GG look more like a clown than a serious villain. The bat-flier is so much better.

I miss underarm webbing.

Tomato

#17
It was something like that IIRC. Harry had actually been introduced a bit earlier, and from what I understand his father had been mentioned, but it was still kind of out of nowhere for readers of the time.

#15.
Spoiler
Our introduction to Kraven the Hunter and... Wow that was actually a great introduction. Whereas Green Goblin got kind of a meh opening issue (especially considering this would become THE Spider-Man villain for most people) Kraven's introduction is interesting... He's clearly using his brain to fight Spider-Man, and right until the end Peter's completely on the defensive. It's a great example of how yeah, the silver age is goofy as all heck, a lot of the stories told were imaginative and thrilling.

And, amidst the petty bickering between Liz and Betty Brant (I don't like either with Peter frankly, so blah) we get our first hints of the woman who would become Peter's main squeeze, Mary Jane Watson... Who can't meet him because "she has a headache"

I can just imagine her being as frustrated with her aunt trying to set her up with Peter as Peter was with Aunt May, and using that as an excuse not to be forced to date the dude.

#16.

Spoiler
Speaking of silver age goofiness... Oh my goodness this issue. We have Daredevil still in his "clearly designed by a blind man" costume, a travelling circus, and hypnosis. Wow.

That being said... I will say that this issue kind of highlights something that we've been discussing over in "gateway to comics" (I'm on mobile, excuse me if I got the name wrong). I've already mentioned just how often the Fantastic Four showed up in the Spider-Man books (and even though I glossed over it, we also had an appearance of the Hulk). Stan Lee/Marvel were going out of their way to build up all these characters, so crossovers happened all the time. And each of these crossovers did a good job of introducing readers to both characters. I feel like this was part of the reason Marvel was able to establish itself so quickly.

Tomato

So I'm still reading, but I'll forgo the individual issue by issue commentary from now on because as we get more and more into the series, I have less to say about individual stories (especially since most of the classic rogues gallery has been introduced at this point) and more to say about the series or characters as a whole.

That being said... the more I read, the more I realize that based on these early stories (and a ton of future ones), Green Goblin just does NOT deserve to be Spider-Man's arch nemesis. He is ONLY interesting based on his secret identity, but his plans and gimmicks are childish and just not well thought out. Unlike say... the Vulture, who used clever methods of outwitting his opponents, or Octavius, who straight up whollops Spider-Man in a straight fight, Green Goblin has done very little. His first fight with Spider-Man got overshadowed by a crossover with the Hulk, and his second appearance he's of such little threat that Spider-Man straight up abandons the fight to go help his Aunt May, because clearly Human Torch is more than enough for him. Aside from the "ooooooooo, no one knows who I really am" shtick, there is NOTHING either appealing or interesting about this character. And no, you can't even point to his gimmicks, because KRAVEN had better gimmicks in his first appearance than this loser Goblin.

Doc Ock for best Spider-Man archenemy, 2016

HarryTrotter

The whole Death of Gwen Stacy thing makes it personal?
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Ouflah

#20
Quote from: Tomato on October 04, 2016, 06:50:57 PMThat being said... the more I read, the more I realize that based on these early stories (and a ton of future ones), Green Goblin just does NOT deserve to be Spider-Man's arch nemesis.
I have always said this! The only reason GG got to be Spidey's arch nemesis is because of the Gwen Stacy thing, which is really bothersome because writers have said that the reason they chose to kill her off was just that they thought she was a boring character.


EDIT: And there's a lot of stuff pointing to Doc Ock being Spidey's most formidable foe. For instance, in Amazing Spider-Man annual #1, the full-page shots of Spidey fighting the villains of the Sinister Six are all of Spider-Man beating them-- that is, except for the one of Spidey fighting Doctor Octopus. In that full page drawing, Spider-Man is shown losing to Doc Ock.
"Superhero deaths are basically an unproven hypothesis at this point."
-Mike Exner III

daglob

You got the feeling that Doc Ock was Spidey's main villain. The Goblin was more-or-less revamped into being a manipulative mastermind post Ditko. And nowadays he has been retconned whenever possible to have been influential in the development of Spiderman. Kind of like the way Kingpin is treated at Daredevil, despite of Wlison being a Spiderman villain first. I'm not sure why Stan and John Romita (and later creative teams) decided to do The Goblin the way he ended up. I still think that Dr. Octopus is a much more interesting villain. Even The Sandman was more interesting, despite having no class (but no class can be a kind of class itself: look at Mordo). Over the years I've grown to dislike Norman, mostly, I think, because the has become the "go to" villain when a writer wants to really give Spidey the works.

And I know that The Joker wasn't the first Batman villain, nor was Lex Luthor the first Superman villain, but DC comics hasn't tried to make Smiley and Lex the reason for their nemeses. At least, last time I read anything about them they hadn't.

Your point about Spiderman assaulting Jonah is well taken. Jonah did start it, for seemingly no more reason than to make headlines, but on Peter's part it became a lot of sophomoric pranks really quickly. I don't remember which story it was that JJ delivers the soliloquy about why he hates Spiderman, and while I can't quote it, I still remember it. It is a very revealing insight into Jonah's personality, and is one of the best portrayals of the secondary antagonist in a Ditko story ever shown. Perhaps the art critic from the last Charlton Blue Beetle is next best.

Which all points up that Ditko was pretty much writing the story, and Stan was adding the words. Maybe the real disagreement wasn't that The Goblin's identity had to be someone important, instead it was that Ditko didn't think The Goblin was important. At least, not enough to merit the attention eventually given to him. I wonder who actually invented The Green Goblin...

I remember Spidey Annual #1...

Tomato

Honestly, the reason Green Goblin is Peter's nemesis is for two reasons: #1. He knows Peter's secret identity. That's a HUGE deal, especially back then (It's also why Venom gets so much attention, even though frankly he's far more interesting in later interpretations and attached to other characters than he EVER was in the comics) and #2. The Death of Gwen Stacy. His triumphs against Peter have been far more personal and more savage than anything Doc Ock has ever done. It's the same reason Joker is so big in the Batman books: whenever it's time for a Robin to die, Joker's the villain to do it.

But frankly, that's why Doctor Octopus is far more INTERESTING. Green Goblin is a crazy loser who has far more misses than he's had successes (for every time he's figured out Peter's identity or killed someone important in his life, I can point to another nonsense plot involving a cult giving him mystical powers or him knocking up a woman half his age). And sure, Ock's had some stinkers, but if you go back and look through his original stories, Ock's WON against Spider-Man as often as anything else. Hell, he straight up unmasked Spider-Man super early on... he just couldn't believe he was fighting a teenager.

Pre-post edit: Daglob, I'd be willing to bet he's a Stan Lee creation, especially given the alliteration.

In 3 stories I've read involving the Goblin, his greatest success is ACCIDENTALLY sending Hulk after Spider-Man

daglob

#23
Quote from: Tomato on October 04, 2016, 08:56:15 PM
Honestly, the reason Green Goblin is Peter's nemesis is for two reasons: #1. He knows Peter's secret identity. That's a HUGE deal, especially back then (It's also why Venom gets so much attention, even though frankly he's far more interesting in later interpretations and attached to other characters than he EVER was in the comics) and #2. The Death of Gwen Stacy. His triumphs against Peter have been far more personal and more savage than anything Doc Ock has ever done. It's the same reason Joker is so big in the Batman books: whenever it's time for a Robin to die, Joker's the villain to do it.

But frankly, that's why Doctor Octopus is far more INTERESTING. Green Goblin is a crazy loser who has far more misses than he's had successes (for every time he's figured out Peter's identity or killed someone important in his life, I can point to another nonsense plot involving a cult giving him mystical powers or him knocking up a woman half his age). And sure, Ock's had some stinkers, but if you go back and look through his original stories, Ock's WON against Spider-Man as often as anything else. Hell, he straight up unmasked Spider-Man super early on... he just couldn't believe he was fighting a teenager.

Pre-post edit: Daglob, I'd be willing to bet he's a Stan Lee creation, especially given the alliteration.

In 3 stories I've read involving the Goblin, his greatest success is ACCIDENTALLY sending Hulk after Spider-Man

What in the name of Fin Fang Foom makes you think that?

Tomato

But no, seriously, all jokes about Stan Lee's obsession with alliteration aside, everything about the Goblin SCREAMS Stan Lee. The design, the gimmicks, the stupid broom thing (Ditko clearly had no idea how to draw the thing, which makes me think it was clearly a Lee invention) the alliterative name... Green Goblin is a Stan Lee creation, top to bottom.

Contrast that with say, the Crime Master, which I think is a fundamentally Ditko creation. Much more simple design, served ultimately as a window into Ditko's sociopolitical leanings (that crime is faceless and not nescessarily someone you know) and... yeah, the Goblin IS Stan Lee's character.

HarryTrotter

Spidermans Tangled Web explains  that JJ hates Spiderman because daddy issues.Everyone treated his father as a big war hero,but he was really a jerk and a drunkard.So Jonah hates when people call somebody a hero and thinks all heroes are phonies.
Which is actually an interesting take.
Also,several adaptation moved the fateful school trip to Oscorp to tie the origin to Norman.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer

Ouflah

A much earlier issue (Amazing Spider-Man 10) gave a reason, as well.
Spoiler
"Superhero deaths are basically an unproven hypothesis at this point."
-Mike Exner III

Tomato

Personally, I think my favorite motivation is the one we see in the Ultimate books, which has been reflected in the 616 universe as well: Namely that he sees his son as a hero (a normal man who risks his life, and in the Ultimate Universe died), but his son has been overshadowed by all these masked vigalantes running around. Due to his pride, he can't stand the idea that these masked vigalantes are on the same level as his son... but at the same time, I think that he is jealous both of his son AND people like Spider-Man, because for all his money and political influence, they are all better men than he is.

On a side note, I think Ultimate JJJ is probably my favorite version of the character. He's much more human than the often cartoonishly maniacle Jonah of the comics (I just recently got through both Scorpion AND the first Slayer) and he eventually does grow to both protect Peter's secret, and to later attempt to avenge his death. It's honestly the most I've ever felt connected to the character as a human being, except a bit during the Superior Spider-Man run.

daglob

Quote from: Spade on October 05, 2016, 05:54:13 AM
Spidermans Tangled Web explains  that JJ hates Spiderman because daddy issues.Everyone treated his father as a big war hero,but he was really a jerk and a drunkard.So Jonah hates when people call somebody a hero and thinks all heroes are phonies.
Which is actually an interesting take.
Also,several adaptation moved the fateful school trip to Oscorp to tie the origin to Norman.

My point exactly. NONE of this is the way it happened originally.

Ouflah found the scene I remember. I've wondered how it came about. It is too smooth to be Ditko's writing, so it just about has to be Stan. It is more-or-less the sentiment of all the later secondary antagonists that opposed The Blue Beetle, The Question, The Creeper, Static, and probably every other Ditko hero as well. If anything, I think Steve told Stan what he wanted Jonah to say, and Stan wrote it.

The "daddy issues" thing may be the legacy of the time (the 90s?) when it seemed like all the comic book characters hated their fathers. THEY. ALL. HATED. THEIR FATHERS. I have said before that I think this said more about the writers than the characters. I didn't hate my father (and, guys & gals, I could tell you stories...).

Read what Ouflah posted. When you hear that comics these days are better because they are more realistic (guys who turn green or dress up as a bat or fly are realistic?), they are deeper and have a greater depth of character, think back on these three panels. No one did stuff like this in comics, no one. No villain, primary or secondary, would ever reveal this kind of motivation. This shows Jonah at his worst, being honest with himself.

This kind of thing is what would eventually make Marvel great.

HarryTrotter

Tangled Web is an anthology series that ran from 2001-03.It was actually pretty good.From stories about a guy working for Kingpin and a cab driver who contemplated selling Spidermans identity to pay for a surgery to those less serious as whats it like to be Leap-Frogs son.All strangly touching.
Aside a bit stereotypical take,JJJ one provides an interesting insight.He just refuses to believe there are heroes.Spiderman just CANT be a hero.Because heroes dont exist.
''Even our origin stories have gone sour.''
Jon Farmer