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Author Topic: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!  (Read 40261 times)

Offline BentonGrey

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #450 on: December 03, 2018, 03:31:37 PM »
Entirely true, SS.
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Offline stumpy

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #451 on: December 03, 2018, 05:11:10 PM »
I have to say, there is always some chance that the shows aren't being renewed because... the most recent season wasn't all that great? I very much enjoyed most of the Netflix Marvel shows when they were starting up. Then there was the whiny Iron Fist, then a poorly paced second season of Luke Cage, and so on. We have been sort of planning to watch the latest season of Daredevil, and may or may not give Iron Fist another shot. But, the enthusiasm is not very high.

BTW, I have been reading that Disney properties have been losing old-style cable subscribers, particularly as cord-cutting marches on. Perhaps because of that, Disney (and CBS, etc., etc.) have been considering an "exclusive content" view of their streaming services. I understand that they want to drive subscriptions and correctly see that the traditional cable cash cow may be going away. But, they have to understand at some level that streaming subscribers aren't looking to subscribe to 20 services. Disney may have enough desirable content to justify a separate subscription for some people. But, Disney could also monetize their content the way they have, by partnering with companies like Netflix. There is no rule that Marvel TV shows can't be both on Netflix and on a Disney streaming service. Remember, Netflix pays them for that content. And, Netflix subscribership is growing.

I am not hoping to see Disney buy Netflix. Less competition in online services will only hurt consumers.
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #452 on: December 04, 2018, 12:50:50 AM »
Benton: Yes, I also was thinking the other night that Disney might as well buy Netflix like they buy everything else. Honestly, I'd rather they did that. This whole split-up-all-the-content thing is the pits and the consumer gets screwed over by it. As I said earlier, I miss the days where you could just watch all your shows on tv. Getting to watch all your favorite shows shouldn't feel like work. It shouldn't be stressful. But it is.
The backlash has already started.  Online TV piracy rates had fallen to almost nothing after the prevalence of all these streaming option, but now with the splintering up into various pay for stream sites, TV piracy is skyrocketing again.  People are willing to pay a reasonable fee for their shows, but make it DIFFICULT and they'll just take it instead.  And there isn't a whole lot that companies can do about that if they insist on fighting the customers instead of just giving them what they want.

Disney's best bet woudl have actually been to buy the rest of their partners out of Hulu, since those companies seem less than invested in it, yet it's original shows are very popular and it's one of the big three streaming brands.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 12:52:36 AM by catwhowalksbyhimself »
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #453 on: December 04, 2018, 04:26:07 AM »
Absolutely. We talked about that earlier and I said no surprise, because it's not a surprise. The key word that none of these greedy companies seem to grasp is "convenience." Once upon a time Napster reigned supreme until Itunes was created and all of a sudden people actually felt inclined to pay for their music. Comics have Comixology. Honestly? I think Comixology might be the smartest move the comics industry has done in my entire lifetime, because now if you miss your book at the store, or don't want to bother with the drive to the store and comics lining your shelves and filling your boxes, you can just buy them there on your tablet day one lickety split and they're going to have every book. They adapted to and competed with the modern world and found a way to turn pirates into customers.

These streaming services are the exact opposite of all of that. You're making it less convenient, more time consuming, more difficult to see your content (legally, pirating a major new show takes less time than it takes to take a shower if you already know how) which is the exact wrong move in this age. You need a gosh darn flow chart just to keep track of all your Marvel, DC and Star Wars content, never mind if you want to get caught up on Game of Thrones, Westworld and Rick and Morty (I use a notepad file myself). But when my friends are over on Sunday for pizza, games and shows they want to be able to watch Game of Thrones, Westworld or Rick and Morty right away, and none of them seem to value supporting content they like as much as I do.

You have fans online who want to be able to see Rick Grime's final episode of Walking Dead day 1, catch up to the day 1 front page spoilers and start sharing memes on Twitter and Tumblr. You have to adapt to and start appealing to that market. You can't just bury your head in the sand and assume people are going to pony up for a streaming service purely for a divisive Star Trek and a heavily derided Titans. You can't just take away the content people loved (and payed for) and then expect them for pony up for the Disney service for Scarlet Witch and Loki streaming shows (actual things promised by the way) because "We're Marvel bay-bay!" I go to the theater to see Infinity War. I pay that for THAT movie. I don't pay for a Moviepass so I can watch IW and NOT watch Venom, Aquaman and Wreck it Ralph 2, but still pay for them, because I don't want to see those movies, I want to see the one I actually like. That's how it works. And hey, at least that would include non-Disney movies lol!

I have to say, there is always some chance that the shows aren't being renewed because... the most recent season wasn't all that great? I very much enjoyed most of the Netflix Marvel shows when they were starting up. Then there was the whiny Iron Fist, then a poorly paced second season of Luke Cage, and so on. We have been sort of planning to watch the latest season of Daredevil, and may or may not give Iron Fist another shot. But, the enthusiasm is not very high.

A lot of people did like Daredevil S3 and Luke Cage S2 though. I don't know if Netflix and/or Disney was concerned with that vs. viewership numbers, but they weren't getting bashed far and wide like Iron Fist was.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:05:25 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #454 on: January 11, 2019, 01:22:04 AM »
BTW, new trailer for the Punisher has apparently released for Season 2's release next week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrLhP5sK2wI

Two main problems with what I'm seeing:

Spoiler: ShowHide
1. I've said before and I'm still bothered by it. He's the PUNISHER. Not the REVENGER. He's not one to go get revenge for something, he punishes. Revenge is specific, targeted. Punishing is something more widely applied to anyone. He's still looking like he's targeting specific persons and if he's not, he quits. He can't quit. That's not the world he lives in. He lives in the most imperfect Hobbesian world and crime is ever persistent. Which means he cannot help but to persistently exist. Stopping means someone else's family is getting shot to death and he can't let that happen.

2. Why is it so hard for them to make Jigsaw look like Jigsaw. I mean, they don't have to go all out freaky Halloween mask Jigsaw from Punisher: Warzone, but what I was reading and what they confirmed is that Jigsaw's "mind is torn to pieces" and not his face... WTF? He's called Jigsaw because his face looks like a Jigsaw puzzle. I mean seriously, what's the point of having him in the show if you refuse to put him IN the show?

Offline daglob

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #455 on: January 11, 2019, 02:11:54 AM »
General answer to your last question: because someone involved in the production thinks this is an improvement over the silly comic book.

Offline Tomato

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #456 on: January 11, 2019, 03:03:24 AM »
No, because being able to go over the top with it would be shocking to people who don't already know the character, which is something the Netflix shows have been prone to be. More likely it's a combination of two factors: A. They don't want to spend the money on designing the makeup, since this is the final season and that's money they don't want to spend and B. The actor probably doesn't want his face covered up.

Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #457 on: January 20, 2019, 11:09:12 AM »
Well, finished season 2 of The Punisher.  And it took some warming up(maybe a lot of warming up), but it got going and I gotta be honest, I think while the first season was technically better I enjoyed this season more... I think is precise.

Spoiler: ShowHide
Coming in I could hardly make heads or tails out of what this season was to be about, but I had a bit of an idea. Of course there's the Russo/Jigsaw storyline left over from season one and I saw in the trailer there was a kid involved this season. Also read an article saying that the main antagonist this season would be politically tied to the alt-right or religious right. Not sure if I'm remembering incorrectly or the article was conflating the two.

As it turned out the story was actually about a Russian oligarch that obtained compromising information on a potential presidential candidate that has ties to the alt-right(where would they ever get some kind of mess like that from?  <_<).  More broadly, Frank/Punisher crosses paths with a teenage girl that some how obtained photos of a U.S. Senator making out with some dude and the Senator's parents are apparently some Pat Robertson/Heritage Foundation types that are so corporately and politically connected that are doing all they can to get those photos back. Ostensibly to keep their son, the Senator's reputation clean. Truth be told, if any of this is sounding any parts confusing is probably because it kinda seemed all over the place. First, we hardly got a good introduction of the kid. Even the little bit of the background we did get I honestly wasn't sure what was what due to her backstory constantly changing.  The Heritage Foundation types "hired" a reformed white supremacist that found religion to find the girl. He too had a background that was rather cloudy and not well defined. I don't even think I heard his name until like 9-10 episodes in so I started thinking of him as "The Holy"(low-level Punisher villain from a run 20 years ago). I mean, none of this story was really fully defined for like the first 4-5 episodes or so. All we pretty much knew that he was a religious guy that had a squad of trained mercenaries working for him that wanted to capture the kid, a kid they found by torturing some Russian guy. Frank, who was trying to live a quiet life decided to get involve and because he's not someone to run from a fight, he turned the fight on them.

As all of this was happening, Dinah Madani still hadn't got over what Russo did to her and wanted him to pay. Russo's been hospitalized for the last 18 months(???) with his face scratched up and suffering from amnesia. The last thing he remembers his being in Afghanistan with Curtis and Frank.  The first mentions of "Jigsaw" was his psychiatrist saying putting his mind back together was like building a jigsaw puzzle. And through his storyline Russo, who had no memory of anything he did, but found out that Madani was mad with him and eventually finding Frank wanted to kill him. Of course he eventually escaped and pretty much just started robbing banks and drug dealers.

Overall, the two storylines hardly mixed. The times they did was when "The Holy"(okay, eventually learned his name was John Pilgrim) tracked Madani or Curtis down to find Frank to find the girl, Amy. But for the bulk of the middle episodes had Frank/Amy/Curtis/Madani agreeing put aside going after The Holy until they kill Russo(they all pretty much wanted him dead).

And that's the plot. Like I said, the first 4-5 episodes were not only pretty slow, but hardly anything was being explained well at all. There were some good scenes with Frank taking on the mercenaries in the bar and when he got arrested by the small-town sheriff's department and they came after him there. But after that the latter part of the middle episodes I suppose many could consider fairly uninteresting.  There was little(or actually no) killing, nothing of the Punisher doing Punisher things. They eventually revealed the two main plot points, Russo robbing folks building an army and The Holy doing what the Shultz's wanted him to do(they were "watching" his sons while he was on his mission).

But the second half of the season is when things really revved up. The first firefight with The Punisher, Russo, Curtis and Mahoney(who was probably in this season more than he's been in all the other shows combined) was really intense! It was almost Heat-level good! The fight scenes were also well done! Frank in the bar. Frank in the forest. Frank in the warehouse! Frank's shootout with the Holy.  They were all pretty fun, especially in the warehouse.

Eventually, Madani found Russo through his psychiatrist, tossed her through a window and shot Russo. Frank confronted the Senator(who was really a small part in it all) and found out about his parents. He found the Holy, they had a couple of fights, but eventually Frank let him lived because he was practically doing the same thing Frank was doing, which was "anything for the kids". Frank then found and finished off Russo and killed the Mr. and Mrs. Shultz.  Both storylines wrapped itself up pretty well. Well, not so much. The Holy got his kids back, which was good, and Frank got to the Shultzs, but I wasn't exactly sure what he wanted from them in regards to their son, the senator?

However, for me, the ending was pretty much the cherry on top! The epilogue saw Madani joining the CIA and Frank staying in New York being EXACTLY what he was made to be... THE PUNISHER!

And I thank them for that. He had to figure out through the season, though it seemed convenient, that he isn't not like regular people and both Madani and Mahoney came to terms with the fact that he exclusively targets criminals.  And they finally let Frank be Frank and end with him being who he is. Skull-wearing, machine gun carrying, body-dropping and quite-frankly thoroughly psychotic PUNISHER!  And I loved every bit of it! Especially when it got going when he was in his element.


If this is how the series ends, I'm happy with it. It wasn't perfect. It was fairly confusing at times, but it seemed like a vehicle for the Punisher to be the Punisher. Which if you're a fan, you definitely should love and if you just want to see an action-filled thriller, you should enjoy it too.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #458 on: January 20, 2019, 11:33:48 AM »
You could have gonne with The Rev.But I guess that doesnt really work either.
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Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #459 on: January 21, 2019, 12:22:59 AM »
I didn't enjoy it that much myself. Yeah, there were some brutal fights, but I wasn't crazy about how they used Frank for most of it (though Berenthal still sells it with his acting) I was disappointed with how Russo was used, and I found myself seriously zoning out for the middle. More than any other Marvel Netflix show (even Iron Fist!) this was the one where I was agreeing with people who say these shows drag on too long.

Spoiler: ShowHide
According to Wikipedia, John Pilgrim is inspired by a character from the comics called The Mennonite, who was an Amish farmer. Between that, the shootout at the police station and the casting of Ward in Iron Fist I couldn't help but say "Somebody's apparently been watching Banshee!". In any case, I felt that for most of the show they'd softened Frank in this, turning him into a more conventional heroic lead, complete with a bratty kid he has to protect.

The Russo stuff annoyed me. Not only has he been in therapy for 18 months, with a barely scarred face (everyone seemed disappointed by that; I did really like the fanart somebody made of how he should look) and the worst worst therapist this side of Harleen Quinzel, but they apparently didn't have enough armed guards to keep him from just beating them up in a few seconds and walking right out. It reminded me of how stupid the FBI was when it came to Fisk in the third season of Daredevil.

It was fun to see Annette O'Tool again, and the final season (which reminded me of the ending of Blade 2) was indeed pretty awesome, but I dunno, I wasn't feeling it. This might be the last season though, so at least they wrapped it up.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:13:34 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #460 on: January 21, 2019, 02:19:38 AM »
I can see that SS. Particularly through the middle parts. I got the sense that many may not dig it.

Spoiler: ShowHide
And there is the idea that yeah, like a few other seasons they seemed to stretch 8 to 10 episodes of plot over 13 episodes. And yeah, I was annoyed with Jigsaw just having a couple scratches which I tried my best to be fine with but never really could.

Also, a little surprised you didn't say more about the plot which even for me seemed rather disjointed and all over the place.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #461 on: January 21, 2019, 02:38:09 AM »
Yeah, I'd say it was a bit all over the place. It took quite a while for the various plots/subplots to come together but I dunno, I guess I'm used to that by now in these shows, and you already covered the show's plot pretty thoroughly.

Oh one thing that came to mind:

Spoiler: ShowHide
I got a bit of chuckle out of the way they got Russo's plot and Frank's plot to first cross over. They both literally hear about each other on the news. I know that's something that happens very often in fiction and it makes sense, I mean, that's what the news is for, but it just felt super convenient, especially with Frank just randomly channel surfing until Russo came up. Good thing the news didn't just happen to be running a story on puppies or Amazon or...other things at that moment.


OH, one other thing I totally forgot about: This season of Punisher brought to you by Coca Cola. Boy oh boy was it ever brought to you by Coca Cola. Every other scene that girl was either drinking a Coke or, in one case early on, talking about wanting a Coke.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 02:42:26 AM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #462 on: February 21, 2019, 03:36:59 AM »
And, as expected, the remainder of the shows were cancelled.  RIP Netflix Marvel shows.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #463 on: February 21, 2019, 05:07:32 PM »
JJ season 3 is finishing, that should be clarified. Also, there are rumors Hulu wants to revive them but is waiting for the deal to finish with Disney.

Frankly though... I think what's there is fine. I'm excited to see JJ's conclusion (I may not have liked s2 a ton, but it ended well) DD got a great send-off, and IF's ending at least promised better material than we ever got.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Watched Jessica Jones season 3. Not too bad, it is better than season 2, but as an ending to the Marvel Netflix experiment, it's a bit bittersweet. And, like the last few, it goes on just a bit too long. Wasn't crazy about a major character turn. Carrie Ann Moss was the best thing in the season. Who, watching the Matrix movies back in the 2000's, could have predicted that? I found her, along with Trish, Malcolm and Ritter as Jess (regardless of her actual plot) to be the saving graces of the not-great S2, and that trajectory is consistent here. Eric felt like an obligatory love interest character, who didn't really need to be there.

Spoiler: ShowHide
Wasn't crazy about Trish becoming a villain. Not only because it seems unnecessarily cruel to Jess, since she's pretty much the only good thing she's consistently had in her life, and also because Trish was probably my favorite character across the 3 seasons, but after the mostly not great S2, the one thing I was looking forward to about this season was Trish becoming a super-hero. Not that they didn't sell it, they did, it's just not what I'd prefer they did with the character.
Luke Cage cameo was nice. I'm glad they gave minor lip service to the intriguing status quo change at the end of LC S2. It's no substitute for a S3, but it's better than nothing.

Salinger (he's an in-name only version of Foolkiller, for those wondering) was a pretty good villain; I appreciated the conflict that Jessica Jones has a villain who's not a threat because they're physically strong or have superpowers, but simply because they manage to avoid being charged with his crimes. And she can't just snap his neck this time either because she doesn't want to and/or because her close relationship with Not-Gordon means she can't really get away with it.

I also appreciate that the show kinda acknowledged how effed up it is that Jess is drinking a bottle of bourbon in damn near every scene we see her in in her office. It's also kinda darkly hilarious that she attempted to shrug off losing a spleen by saying "it just does the same thing as a liver", while her own liver's gotta be black as coal (or would be if not for the powers).
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:18:58 PM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline Shogunn2517

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Well, I was enjoying this season until I came here and read what SS wrote. I don't know why. I couldn't help myself for some reason. I wasn't looking at this as "oh cool spoiler, I wonder how spoilery, what's it say?" I was actually thinking "Oh Silver Shocker is saying something and I want to finish reading what he saying" almost as if it was a "continue reading" tab you'd see on FB or something and I clicked it and bam, the first sentence. And I was thinking "Crap! Why did I just click that!?" And I had to convince myself that I read it wrong... and I actually thought I did for a while. Then I didn't. Then I did. And then I didn't again.

I'm kidding, SS! That was all me. Lol.

Spoiler: ShowHide
If I'm being completely honest, I think I enjoyed this season if not as much probably more than season one and honestly, one of my favorite of the 13. The thing I've liked about this series is the resistance of falling into the same villainy tropes of the bad guy being the mirror image of the good guy. Iron Man fights Iron Monger. Thor the Asgardian fights Loki the Asgardian. Captain America the Super Soldier fights the Super Soldiers Red Skull and Winter Soldier. But Jessica Jones her villains aren't her opposites. They're complications that she can't just punch through. Salinger was much in that mold. BTW, my brother and I always was a fan of his because we thought his trading card back in the 90s was pretty cool so I was happy to see him show up in live action. But this season was interesting. Salinger was a good foil for Jessica and Trish. Speaking of, when I saw the spoiler I was hoping to myself it said "vigilante" instead of villain. And as it happened, I got to the end and saw Jessica figure out she killed the cop and then see her killing the other guy, I'm thinking "Oh damn, Shocker was right, she is like going villain-villain" only to find out in the next episode that she was doing it to frame herself to protect Jessica and started thinking "maybe I did read his post wrong, thank God!" But the fact it turned a few times like that for me is what also made it more interesting, even after I foolishly spoiled it for myself.  But in all, I wouldn't consider Trish the villain or a villain, to be fair. Yes she went off the deep end and Eric proved it. But she, like the other villains in the series, was not traditional at all. Where Killgrave was all bad and he even knew it, Her mother was a choatic crazy bad, whether she knew it or not. Salinger was lawfully bad(sorry for the rather D&D descriptions, but it kinda made sense at the time). Trish came to figure out that she was the bad guy(literally actually saying it even). So her acceptance of her doing wrong, which IMO not very unlike what Malcolm did. Even he gave Eric a headache but was contrite.  One thing that kind left me disappointed was Luke's cameo. While, of course, I welcome him coming back and seeing them at least trying to revive the "Jessica and Luke" storyline as we know. But it almost seemed rather throwaway. He just randomly shows up and tells her "Hey I locked away my estranged brother and so can you" and that's pretty much it. I think he would have been better used as a bookend, like meeting her at the station as she decided to leave and they go have "coffee". Something like that. But this was just random and somehow just didn't fit right, IMO. Speaking of, Killgrave's cameo too was just.... "huh?"


But like I said overall, I really enjoyed this. Definitely more than the second. Maybe more than the first because here the characters all seemed more "complete" versions of themselves. As I think about it, months removed, Punisher 2 is quickly becoming my favorite season, followed by DD1 and LC1. But this is up there among those to me. Maybe my opinion will rise. That said, it was a good ending IMO. Maybe I'd want that character turn to go another way, but I'll take it for what it's worth.

Offline Silver Shocker

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Sorry about that Shogunn. I definitely could have stated "Spoilers under the cut", but didn't think of it. And if it really did end up enhancing your experience, then glad to hear it.  In any case, glad to hear you enjoyed the season.

Spoiler: ShowHide
I actually want back and forth and whether or not to call Trish a "villain". But my logic was ultimately that in the end, she had to be stopped and put away by the main character, thus she counts as an antagonist. I do sometimes differ with others on whether a character counts as a villain or not. But logic extends to this point: them being sympathetic doesn't negate them being a villain. Villains can (and in many case are) sympathetic. Some of the best are.

I was wondering for a long time if they could have written anything with the mindset that this will be the final Marvel Netflix season. I do wonder if Luke's cameo was always meant to be there. It did feel like the show could have used a better sendoff for the Netflix experiment. Ultimately I think the ending to DD S3 (minus the goofy Bullseye scene) was the more satisfying send-off.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 12:09:53 AM by Silver Shocker »
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Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #467 on: October 31, 2019, 03:34:19 AM »
Surprised to see another post here?  Well, while not quite confirmed, there are a LOT of rumors going around that all of the characters from these shows are being brought back fully into the MCU with the exception of Iron Fist and all of his cast.  There's a possible Daredevil movie with most of the series cast as well as a good possibility that Luke Cage joins the New Avengers team.  If true, it's good that these shows are not being dropped completely out of the MCU.

Iron Fist, however may be rebooted completely with an entirely new cast.
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Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #468 on: October 31, 2019, 05:51:48 AM »
Honestly, I've been hearing that they've been campaigning like real hard to reprise their roles in some way. At least the Daredevil and Punisher stars, that I do know. Somehow I gotta imagine that with three stars of two of the series on CBS primetime(with Evil also being picked up for a 2nd season), things might be a bit more difficult.  Overall, it'd be a shame for them to go away. The fan reaction, in a day and age where fan toxicity is extreme, it's responded well. Even surprisingly to Iron Fist 2nd season. SO yeah it'd be a complete shame if they left.

Offline Tomato

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #469 on: October 31, 2019, 06:01:13 AM »
I'd like to see more from these series, even in a different form, but I think that the stuff about IF being excluded is... problematic. Yes, S1 is... not great (it's a martial arts show with bad martial arts) but at the same time... I did like some of the supporting characters and the problems with Danny were how he was written, not how he was acted, as he was much better in LC season 2. But in addition to that, now we're going right back to the same problem we had at the start of the series: Who to cast. You cast a white dude everyone goes nuts because it's still a white man assimilating another person's culture. Make him Asian, great, now you've made the martial arts guy an asian because that isn't a stereotype at all, not to mention upsetting purist fans. You make him something else, now you've ticked off both camps.

For all the issues one can, deservedly, give Iron Fist, by the end of Season 2 they'd found a good third option. Danny was OG Iron Fist, but has since transferred the mantle to Colleen Wing. You now have the focus of the series on an Asian actress without it feeling forced, and Danny is still around with power (somehow) in his classic comic book form getting to run around and team up with Luke Cage, which is what most of us wanted to see happen anyway. They just needed to give him a bloody costume.

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #470 on: October 31, 2019, 01:02:01 PM »
Allegedly IF's exclusion is because Fegi doesn't like that series, but likes the other ones and the TV stuff now falls under him as well.

Apparently the plans are to recast Danny as Asian.

Given that the rumored plans for DD and LC are for movies rather than tv the inclusion of actors in other tv shows shouldn't be too big of a deal.  Plus these are a couple years off probably.  Supposedly as part of the Netflix deal they have to wait that long before using the characters again anyway.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #471 on: October 31, 2019, 03:45:12 PM »
Mehhhhhh...

Listen, y'all know I am the last person to complain about diversity casting, but that would not be a good move. Between Shang Chi and Iron Fist, both of the headlining Asian characters of the MCU would be relegated to the Martial artists, and that's not a great look. I'd almost rather see a third option... Arabic, Latino, Israeli, etc. since that eliminates the white savior complaint while also not reinforcing stereotypes.

That's not to say I can't see an Asian Danny, son of Chinese/Japanese executives who comes home after becoming the iron fist and resulting in that same modern vs historic culture conflict as the source material. I just REALLY don't like the idea of the Asian lead roles all being relegated to the kung Fu movies.

Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #472 on: November 02, 2019, 04:30:08 PM »
Not just Shang Chi, but I'm almost certain when(if) they cast Namor he'd very possibly be Asian and I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.  Not that there need to be a quota of diversity, but there's a REASON why Shang Chi was being pushed. It's a bonefide character to showcase the publisher's diversity. I get that I support that.

But I'm sorry, if they're really trying to make Danny Rand a rich guy that grows up in Asian culture Asian then what's the point of even calling him Iron Fist. That ain't Iron Fist anymore and it's just ridiculous. Extremely ridiculous. Who the hell are you trying to please doing something as silly? The character is NOT Asian. Part of the character's actual character is being just a white guy. It's that characteristic that IS a story element. And there's nothing wrong with that. What would be wrong (or problematic really) is to make everybody else white with him. But they went out of their way to make Asian culture a big part of the show and they could have not.

I've said it before. I know I'm not Asian so I can't claim a full supportive or offended position. But I know from where I sit, when I hear rumors like casting Micheal B. Jordan or a Will Smith as a Batman or Superman and I'm thinking what for? There are a TON of actually black superheroes I'd rather see. Why make Superman black, just give me Icon.(errrr duh look at the pic lol)  Just the same, I know there aren't a ton of Asian superheroes to celebrate, but I'm really not a big fan of shoehorning a whole different race on another character for just because reasons. Particularly when you're doing it at the expense of other characters and other stories I think audiences would love to see and fanboys would crave.

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #473 on: November 02, 2019, 05:00:34 PM »
TBF, I can see Iron Fist as non-white, and I do get that his whole backstory is a white savior narrative (last samurai, etc.) which is why Danny being white IN PARTICULAR is a problem for a wider audience in today's world. And it's a no win situation, because they can't just NOT do Iron Fist because of his long history with Luke Cage. However, my stance is that the choice isn't binary, and even if it was, making him asian is the more racially divisive choice because not only are you going against the comic version of the character, but doing so to lean INTO racial stereotypes like the Asian being the Martial Arts guy.

Offline Shogunn2517

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #474 on: November 02, 2019, 11:12:12 PM »
I'll concede that point. Of course. It is less of a blow to avoid the "white savior" without a stereotypical Asian role by having Danny Rand be black or latino, Israeli, Filipino even. But honestly, might just be a personal opinion, but I think the character is more effective as is, but that's neither here nor there.

Like I said, I get the arguments of cultural representation vs cultural appropriation, but in this particular case, I don't think it's that kind of a deal. Specifically for those clamoring for the character to be played by an Asian. That's not who he is. Like when they say "how are you gonna have a guy connected to Asian culture doing kung fu and not be Asian", well that's kinda the point of the entire character isn't it? He's a bit of a fish out of water... and it's that flsh being out of water that makes it peculiar.

Offline daglob

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #475 on: November 03, 2019, 03:02:33 PM »
I haven't read Iron Fist in years, but weren't the populace of Kun'lun extraterrestrials, or was it just the dragon?

Offline catwhowalksbyhimself

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #476 on: November 04, 2019, 01:22:05 AM »
The latest is that it seems marvel is planning on moving into a series of R-Rated movies with their own crossover team as a version of the Midnight Sons and Punisher, with the Netflix cast, would be one of those. Blade and possibly Deadpool would be part of that as well (but it doesn't sound like Deadpool is part of the team, only the R-rated movie series)
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Offline GhostMachine

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #477 on: November 06, 2019, 05:30:10 AM »
There were complaints than Danny was white rather than Asian when the Iron Fist series was first announced, including complaints by a few people who should have known better. (A writer who had actually worked for Marvel, for example.) My response was `Sure, lets make Danny Asian. And while we're at it, introduce Shang-Chi, but make him an African-American rapper with Shang-Chi being his rap name. Because that makes about as much sense.' I get the desire for some to avoid the white savior trope, but Danny *not* being Asian is sort of the point. Wanting to make Danny Asian is a case of being overly racially sensitive and PC. Probably also the reason that Snake-Eyes is going to be played by a partially Asian actor. So now they're going with sterotypes. How is that any better?

I usually do not have a problem with changing a character's race, but Danny Rand and Snake-Eyes shouldn't be Asian. The only character whose race shouldn't be changed more than them is James Bond, unless they finally admit its a code-name and there's more than one Bond. (Maybe he's a Time Lord?!)

And to answer daglob, if I remember right the Kun'lun are extradimensional beings.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 05:33:20 AM by GhostMachine »

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Re: Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!
« Reply #478 on: November 07, 2019, 02:00:54 AM »
I just got rid of Netflix in favor of Prime, doesn't sound like I'm missing anything. After the price hike, Jones ending and Netflix being way too focused on their own content it didn't seem like a good option anymore. Plus Prime opens me to Disney as well CBS for the new Picard show. Tbh I wasn't very into the Netflix shows anyways short of Jones.

Far as the casting...I guess I couldn't care. Not enough about Iron Fist anyways. I do see where changing him would dither the essence of the character at least in being a prototypical upperclass white boy learning to appreciate Asian lore but perhaps that concept just isn't with the times anyways. Yet in the end as long as it's entertaining and the actor puts on a good show that's all that matters to me imo. That's about the limit of thought I can put into it really.