Young Justice

Started by Tomato, August 30, 2011, 10:22:43 PM

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BentonGrey

#120
Haha, my goodness 'Mato, I thought we were just having a pleasant discussion, but it seems that you've taken it to heart!  I suppose I wasn't as clear and specific as I should have been in my post, but part of the point that I was trying to make was that there is a great deal of this that is just perspective.  If you're finding so much to be fond of in YJ, then that's awesome, and I'm glad you're enjoying it so much.  If you don't view TAS the way I do, well I can understand that, but I was just addressing the specific failings of the TAS interpretation of Dick that you mentioned which didn't make sense to me.  I have not been trying to offend you, and if any of my comments troubled you, I apologize.  I, however, never called you a fool for disagreeing with me, 'Mato.

Below is a clarification of my thoughts for those interested, but I'm going to spoiler it so as not to present a block of text and eat up page space for those who don't care:

Spoiler
My distaste for the Nightwing identity is largely just drawn from the my distaste for the mechanism by which he takes said name.  The character himself doesn't necessarily have anything wrong with him.  I read and loved the classic New Teen Titans books, and I've read other books with him in them.  I've never been fond of the name, nor most of the costumes, but the character, especially as he was portrayed in NTT, is essentially a good one, when the readers aren't drowned in angst over his transition.  Like I said, I can see that I wasn't as clear as I perhaps should have been, but I thought that my previous comments about YJ would be enough to explain the context for my statements.  Let me be a bit more precise.  I said: "In fact, if he were Red Robin rather than Nightwing in YJ, I wouldn't mind it at all, provided there wasn't a new Robin showing up."  As I've said before, I don't really mind the changes in YJ, and that is largely BECAUSE we've seen no "Ohh my goodness, ANGST!" story with Dick.  So, he's suddenly Nightwing, I'm pretty okay with that.  My point was that I would have zero mixed feelings about it if it weren't for the associations that the Nightwing name has for me.  See, that was a big point of my post, this is the way I'm viewing these characters personally.  The point was that he's not objectively ruined or a bad character or anything, but that I often can't help but think of those annoying stories when I see Nightwing. 

In the same way, the character of Tim Drake is one that I don't dislike.  I know what you're thinking, 'but Benton, you've talked about how much you hate other Robins,' and you're right.  That's the issue.  I have very little real experience with Tim Drake.  He's largely from the periods where I wasn't reading mainstream books, and he's not been in my favorite shows.  I don't have anything against the character, in and of himself.  In fact, he's basically a non-entity with me.  I can totally understand why 'Mato and others like him.  That's great, and he sounds like a nice character.  What bothers me is the structure put in place to bring him into the story.  It doesn't make sense to me.  It's like the narrative gymnastics required to explain the various versions of Hawkman.  Now, I'm not talking specifically about Tim's origin, so before 'Mato blows a gasket, let me be as clear as I can.  The problem I have with the story is the larger narrative.  You've got Dick going off to be his own man in a badly written arc which wasn't dealt with properly for a long time.  Okay, I think that's a story telling misstep, but then he's replaced by Jason Todd, who happens to look just like him.  Bruce, who had a very good and compelling reason for adopting Dick, and eventually, for taking him on as a partner, inexplicably takes on this new kid as well.  That one dies horribly, and then Bruce picks up YET ANOTHER ONE.  Now we're on, what, our fifth Robin?  It never made sense to me that Bruce would take on a second partner, much less a fifth, especially after what happened to some of the others.  That's ridiculous to me.  Yeah, Tim's origin may have been well written.  I haven't read it, so I'm not going to judge it, but the stream of Robins strikes me as silly, and for that reason, I'm not a fan of the concept. 

Now, like I've said before, on the face of it, I have no problem with legacy characters.  As a matter of fact, I think it would be fantastic if DC actually figured out what the heck they were doing and moved their characters through some actual growth and change, eventually retiring a lot of the old guard.  However, every time they try to do that, they torture the original character horribly, and then expect us to be happy when they pull their replacement out of nowhere!  Dick taking over as Batman makes perfect sense, though it happening because Batman was killed would make me sad.  It happening because Bruce finally finds peace and settles down...well, I'd love to read that story (part of the reason I always liked the Earth-2 stories).  New characters are often handicapped by the way they're introduced and the baggage loaded on them by their association with the terrible nature of the change that creates them.  I've talked about this before with Ryan Choi.  I love Ray Palmer, he's a great character, and when DC did such terrible, terrible things to him in order to bring in a new character, I hated him at first.  It took me a long time to look past that and realize that Ryan Choi was an awesome character in his own right.  If he had been brought in through a more natural progression, I'd have had a much easier time embracing him. 

In a lesser way, this is the issue with Dick Grayson and his replacements as Robin.  You give me a story that doesn't involve such terrible writing and so much torture for characters I love, and I'll be much more open to it.  Thus, I have no real issues with having Dick be Nightwing, though I'm still leery of the new Robin thing because of my discomfort with the whole concept of revolving Robins.  If YJ tells good stories with Tim AND Dick, great, I look forward to it, but I'm just a little wary because I've been burned before.

I hope that clears things up a bit.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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Previsionary

Whatever you people are talking about is boring. I have deemed it so, so it must be, and it would do you all well to just bow at my feet, for I am a King... and some of you are my daughters. Let's not discuss it; it's awkward. *adjusts cape*

Now, let's listen to what I have to say. Benton, I find you to be incredibly offensive. I'd like you to apologize to me and all of FR for your continued practice in the disgusting display of love for Aquadork. Let it be done... NAO!



In other news, new episode of YJ today! Any thoughts on the developments of Beast Boy, Miss Martian, and Superboy?
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oldmanwinters

Overall, I liked this morning's episode.  Superboy's character development seems to have come a long way [in the past 5 years]. 

Also, I'm starting to find Beast Boy a little annoying, which I didn't expect.  Whereas in the Teen Titans show, I found him weird and hilarious, in this episode he just came across as an immature little brother who repeats the same phrase until he gets the attention he wants.  I suppose that makes sense, given his now revealed orphaned status and unique relationship with Miss Martian.

Speaking of that green lady, I was a little confused as to what she did to that alien at the end.  It looked to me like she was just probing his mind intensively, which got her the info she wanted but left him a shriveling little zombie.  It reminded me of what Martian Manhunter did to the Thanagarian in the "Starcrossed" episode of Justice League.  I kinda figured Me'gan's dark side was behind her given the resolution of Season 1, but it appears that she's still got some inner demons she has yet to exorcise.

Should make for an interesting season.

Talavar

New episode thoughts:
Spoiler
Superboy never appearing to age is weird - what use is encoding for that, when genetically-engineering Superman's replacement?  Wouldn't you want him to eventually look like Superman?  Weird.  A few nice reveals about the annoying 5 year gap (Beast Boy's mom getting killed, Superboy breaking up with Miss Martian - though not really the why) and Miss Martian seems to have developed quite a hard edge, along with density shifting - she went through the wall of the enemy base/ship, right?  And in this iteration of the characters, is Adam Strange going to become the Mad Hatter?

UnkoMan

Spoiler
Was he was released early, wasn't he Talavar?

I figure this whole season will be reveals about the gap, and obviously about where the League was. Also, I am wondering if the INVASION title is actually referring to the Apokolips invasion that they have slowly been hinting at since the beginning. Could "The Light" really be a front for Darkseid?

The more I watch of this show and see all the threads weave together, the more I really enjoy it.

PS: I checked out the wikipedia episode guide (I couldn't help it!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Young_Justice_episodes

"Nightwing and others reach out to a former comrade."
Aqualad? Kid Flash?
Then, later: "The Spectre takes the team to the world of death where they see former team members who died."
Again, who's it gonna be? Oooo... Plus, gives more credence to Tim's "Don't die" comment.

BentonGrey

Well...I wasn't expecting that.
Spoiler
So, Aqualad is serving Black Manta as Manta 2.0?  Crazy.  It doesn't seem to be a deep cover thing either, as he just murdered a whole heck of a lot of aliens.  Also, nitpick, MM didn't notice that Martian Girl just psychically lobotomized that alien?  I also didn't care for Aquaman dropping after getting hit in the shoulder by the Manta beams.  He's tougher than that!  Come on. :P

That was a very interesting episode, though I'm more than a little sad that Aquagirl was apparently part of the team, but died before we ever really got to see her!  That breaks my heart a bit, though their version of Tula wasn't exactly a lot like the classic version.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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Tomato

Spoiler
Benton, even by your usual standards, your aqua-logic is flawed. First, the next shot of his shoulder showed no actual damage... so yeah, he may have been pushed back, but he wasn't really "injured". Second, this is a weapon crafted by one of Aquaman's greatest foes... you don't go into battle with someone without having the capability of doing them serious harm.

Which actually begs the question... why didn't it do real damage? The attack tore Aquaman's shirt a bit, but there's no gaping wound or serious burn there. I don't think it's because Aqualad's a double agent or anything, but it could indicate some hesitation on his part.

BentonGrey

#127
Spoiler
I don't mean that he was put down, but I was very mildly bothered (hence nitpick) when a glancing blow seemed to cause him so much trouble.  I did really enjoy getting to see more of the actual League in action here, though.

I also enjoyed the angst-free Bat family dynamic we got to see in action here.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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UnkoMan

I think the laser thing is on par with how, say, Superman was clearly blown backwards by lasers as well. They didn't do any real damage, just knocked him back a little. And he's obviously a lot tougher than Aquaman.

Spoiler
I also really liked how, even though the place was going to explode, he stuck around to save the aliens they are basically trying to fight (and presumable must kill throwing around their mechs like they do)... Total Superman. I'm actually fond of most of the characterizations in this show.

Tomato

Oh, btw... I kept meaning to put this up, but for those who haven't been keeping up with the YJ: Legacy game (as a fan you all might want to, it's supposed to help bridge the gap between s1 and s2) the full list of heroes and villains is up... Most of the characters are using their s2 looks (Dick=Nightwing, Tim=Robin, that sort of thing) but there are some interesting additions... Aqualad is still in his old duds, Kid flash is also essentially the same (but the artwork seems to be new, so he might be older), Artemis uses the old artwork but grayed out (stealth tech), and Tempest is an official member of the team.

oldmanwinters

#130
It really has been a while since I can remember seeing Batman fighting alongside Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl on TV.  This episode really showed what a great team the Bat-family makes.

This episode reminded me of why I really don't care for Superman's voice.  I don't know how to describe what's wrong with it other than the fact that it just doesn't sound "Superman-ish."  At one point today, it almost sounded like Supes had some weird accent that I couldn't place.  Oh well, that's a subjective matter.

I can't help but think we may not be seeing the "Magnificent Six" leaguers for a while; it seems like they are being conveniently written out of the plot for a while so that the focus can shift to the YJ team and the intensifying Invasion threat.  I wonder if The Light's whole purpose of "The Sixteen Hours" would be to draw the Big Guns off-world at Earth's most desperate hour.  Batman's fear about the real danger being on Earth may prove prophetic.

Also... I'm really starting to wonder what happened to both Flash (Barry Allen) and Kid Flash (Wally West) between seasons.

Talavar

Very interesting episode...
Spoiler
the combo of Tula dying and the Black Manta parentage reveal I can buy as cause for Aqualad's betrayal (mostly).  The Krolotaens (sp?) referred to Blue Beetle as a warrior of the Competition, making the Competitor the Reach, if I'm not mistaken.

murs47

I was sad Aqualad didnt maim Aquaman. Perhaps next time.

Podmark

I really enjoyed seeing how efficient the Bat family was. Certainly an interesting episode for Aqualad.
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JeyNyce

This episode answer a lot of questions but:

Spoiler
What about speedy? And Rocket is the only one who knows that Icon is an alien?
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Glitch Girl

Jey, about your last point
Spoiler
I don't think so - at the end of the episode, you notice how they said Icon knows a bit about "interstellar law" in a way that they knew HOW he had direct dealings with it.  I think a good chunk of the league knows.
-Glitch Girl

"Cynicism is not maturity, do not mistake the one for the other. If you truly cannot accept a story where someone does the right thing because it's the right thing to do, that says far more about who you are than these characters." - Greg Rucka

oldmanwinters

#136
"Salvage"

:lol:

Wally West, that sly dog...

Can we now refer to Roy and West are
Spoiler
brothers-in-law
?

BentonGrey

I wasn't crazy about this episode, but I will say this. 
Spoiler
They actually managed to give Red Arrow a more legitimate reason to be so messed up than the comics did.  You can understand someone who has lost his entire identity marrying a super villain and all this other stuff.  All-in-all, though, ehh.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
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JeyNyce

This show just got real.  :o
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Talavar

Hey, a TV reference to Ted Kord - is that a first?

detourne_me


Podmark

Quote from: Talavar on May 20, 2012, 08:17:30 PM
Hey, a TV reference to Ted Kord - is that a first?

Didn't he appear in Brave and the Bold?

Latest episode:
Spoiler

Well that's everyone accounted for then. I wonder how much Wally and Artemis will appear now, and whether their retirement will be permanent.
Not sure why but I liked Jaime better in B&B. He kinda annoys me in this show.
I find Red Arrow one of the more interesting parts of this show. I'm wondering if Jade is lying to him, and Lian's not even really his.
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Tomato

Quote from: Talavar on May 20, 2012, 08:17:30 PM
Hey, a TV reference to Ted Kord - is that a first?

No. As Pod mentioned, he appears in several flashbacks in B&B and is referenced in several scenes with Reyes. He also appeared in Smallville, though not as BB, in the "Booster" episode.

oldmanwinters

Spoilered just in case:
Spoiler
I'm curious to know what pushed Wally to abandon the hero business.  If a guy can not only travel faster than the speed of sound but also enjoy it immensely, than there's got to be a very profound reason as to why he gave it all up.  Maybe he and Artemis just wanted to "settle down" and have a safe, comfortable life and further their education, but I think it probably has to be more than that.

I'm still thinking that Barry Allen died sometime between seasons, and maybe the pain of his passing made Wally's family persuade him to give up his heroism exploits.

If so, then my guess is that another tragedy might push Wally back into the superhero gig to avenge a fallen friend... or lover.

Talavar

Oh, so it's just the first Ted Kord reference on a show worth watching *rimshot*

Glitch Girl

Looks like Flash is appearing in next week's episode, so you may have your question answered.

As for this week, it was pretty good, though Jamie's plot ended up being entirely set-up (though the character interaction with the suit was interesting - can a suit switch to decaf?)  The other plot was very solid though - some great bits with the female YJers (Batgirl got the best line during the mission brief). 

One question: Could part of Jamie's plot have been a ref to Apache Chief - (his friend, and his friend's grandfather)?
-Glitch Girl

"Cynicism is not maturity, do not mistake the one for the other. If you truly cannot accept a story where someone does the right thing because it's the right thing to do, that says far more about who you are than these characters." - Greg Rucka

Talavar

I never realized (though I suppose I should have) that the 'J' in Jamie Reyes is pronounced the Spanish way, 'H.'  Just something I never clued into I guess.  Definitely liked the YJ all-female squad (and Nightwing's awkwardness about describing it as such). 

Is it just me, or is Miss Martian a little scary now?

Podmark

Quote from: Talavar on May 29, 2012, 05:45:36 AM
I never realized (though I suppose I should have) that the 'J' in Jamie Reyes is pronounced the Spanish way, 'H.'  Just something I never clued into I guess. 

His name is actually spelled Jaime not Jamie too. It took me a long time to notice that. I don't think I did until he appeared in B&B, certainly didn't realize that was how it was pronounced.
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detourne_me

Quote from: Glitch Girl on May 27, 2012, 07:03:19 PM


One question: Could part of Jamie's plot have been a ref to Apache Chief - (his friend, and his friend's grandfather)?
Spoiler
Well remember the group were clones/modified kids in JLU.  Maybe this will be a reference back to that JLU storyline?   ....oh crap, i get it now.  and it could tie into the search for roy harper too!

oldmanwinters

"Bloodlines"

That was probably one of my favorite episodes of the whole series.  I love these "Flash Family" focused stories.

Spoiler
I was shocked to see just how "off the pace" Wally West is compared to the Allen family heroes.  That was hilarious.

Pretty spooky ending to the episode though.