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Race in Comics

Started by Ajax, May 16, 2010, 04:36:36 AM

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Previsionary

Yes, Firestorm is hearing things and he thinks Jason is saying it, causing "dramatic" and "racial" tension. Well, more tension because from what I've been able to understand, the two characters already have issues between them.
Disappear when you least expe--

pr1983

just a tad after what ronnie did during blackest night lol...

Previsionary

Bumping this because someone wrote another blog article about it that includes Marvel this go round.

Quote from:
http://stolisomancer.livejournal.com/87338.html

It's a tricky situation. On the one hand, both companies make their living using holdover characters from, at best, the early sixties. While both companies have relatively high-profile non-white characters, both companies are also stuck with a central cast that was mostly created before the civil rights movement. (Marvel has a very slight edge in this department, mostly because of Robbie Robertson, but they didn't have a black superhero in his own book until 1972.) A lot of the newer fans that they so desperately need are clamoring for equal representation in these superhero universes - more non-white heroes, more gay heroes, etc. - but both companies are hamstrung by their dependence on the older fans' goodwill. Give a new character his own book (or even an older character who was created after 1965 or so) and it sinks without a trace; give a new character too much of the limelight in a team book and the fans thrall in droves.

What interests me about the discussion, though, mostly has to do with Greg Pak's work at Marvel. Pak's Korean, and got his start writing a bunch of miniseries that nobody really seemed to care about, like Rise of the Imperfects. Since then, he's written some high-profile stuff like World War Hulk and Incredible Hercules.

In a lot of Pak's work so far, he's managed to very subtly work in non-white and female characters without really drawing a lot of attention to it. He created Amadeus Cho, who's one of the more successful new characters to come out of Marvel in the last decade. Pak's War Machine run rehabilitated the extremely '90s character Suzi Endo from, of all things, Force Works, in a book that also featured James Rhodes and Bethany Cabe (who's probably one of the most obscure, yet awesome, characters at Marvel).

Pak didn't sit back and write angry letters to somebody until he got the characters he wanted. He started as a student filmmaker and eventually wound up at Marvel. Once he was there, he rolled up his sleeves and got to work. Sometimes it's really friggin' blatant, like that Korean SHIELD guy in Phoenix: Warsong (who is, seriously, only one or two steps above an author avatar, and who Pak later partially redeemed by making him a sort of well-meaning messup in War Machine), but Pak did it right. He created the change he wanted.

The other writers in the new crop at Marvel - Jeff Parker, Paul Tobin, Fred Van Lente - are all similarly adept. Tobin mostly writes the Marvel Adventures books, but did a pretty good turn with Venus and Namora recently in Fall of an Avenger. Parker is best known for shoehorning the Agents of Atlas, which are led by a Chinese guy, into absolutely everything he possibly can. Fred Van Lente introduced the half-Indian Jackie Kane in Marvel Zombies recently, and created the new Scorpion, Carmilla Black.

[...]

The important thing to remember, though, when discussing the issue of race in comics (or anywhere else, for that matter), is that progress is actually being made, if only a little bit at a time. We are moving forward.

The problem is finding a way to be part of the solution, but at least that part's relatively easy. One of the morals of the twentieth century, which we seem to conveniently forget a lot of the time, is that change doesn't happen by asking other people to change. Change starts with you.

Language warning as well. Ultimately... this made me miss the War Machine book from the Dark Reign era. Ironically, he was one of the only superheroes to constantly take on and fight Norman and his plans directly while the other heroes "reacted" to whatever bad omen hit them that week.
Disappear when you least expe--

murs47

That was actually a good article. Those other ones were so whiny.

cmdrkoenig67

#64
I agree DC has a horrible track record in how they treat characters of color and/or diverse ethnicity.  Marvel is guilty too, if on a smaller scale...

I was always a big fan of Storm...But I thought her marrying the Black Panther was a racial PR stunt (I didn't get it then and I still don't get it)...To me, Storm has gone from a resourceful, capable, contributing member and great leader of the X-Men to spoiled trophy wife of a king...IMHO, the character has suffered because of this marriage...In truth, I don't see how this marriage has helped either character.  I can't say that I care for Storm any longer, when the main focus of her character is that she's now a queen with queenly responsibilities. I'm not saying this is the worst thing to happen to these characters, but in my eyes, this move has done nothing to help them.

I happen to feel a few of the current writers at Marvel write minority characters as stereotypes (BMB being one of them).  

I also agree with you guys who say new characters of diverse ethnicity need to be created (as opposed to being legacy characters)...Some of my favorite characters of color/ethnicity (whether they are stereotypes or not is up for debate)...Shaman, Talisman and Windshear of Alpha Flight....I was a fan of Jubilee, when she first appeared (I lost interest in her over the years, I'm not sure if it was the way she was written or what)...I was also a fan of some of the New Mutants (Dani Moonstar and Shan/Karma).

Shaman has been killed (Grrrrrrrr!), Windshear, Jubilee and Moonstar were all depowered during M Day.  I also have to ask why almost every mutant on the planet was depowered, except for mostly those that live in or are citizens of the United States?  What's with that?  Nearly every name on the list of the 198 is an American citizen...Is Wanda a U.S. nationalist?

Dana

cmdrkoenig67

Quote from: Previsionary on May 20, 2010, 01:06:40 PM
Yes, Firestorm is hearing things and he thinks Jason is saying it, causing "dramatic" and "racial" tension. Well, more tension because from what I've been able to understand, the two characters already have issues between them.

I could be way off, but it appears someone or something is trying to foment more tension between them (some villain has found a way to mentally connect with them and is using it to cause dissent)...Not that I read the book, but that's what I'm getting from that one page.

Dana

AfghanAnt

#66
Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I was always a big fan of Storm...But I thought her marrying the Black Panther was a racial PR stunt (I didn't get it then and I still don't get it)...To me, Storm has gone from a resourceful, capable, contributing member and great leader of the X-Men to spoiled trophy wife of a king...IMHO, the character has suffered because of this marriage...In truth, I don't see how this marriage has helped either character.  I can't say that I care for Storm any longer, when the main focus of her character is that she's now a queen with queenly responsibilities. I'm not saying this is the worst thing to happen to these characters, but in my eyes, this move has done nothing to help them.
Storm and BP have a long history together that dates back to 1980. Would you preferred she married Forge? I would have but he left her in the 90's to be with Mystique of all people.

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I happen to feel a few of the current writers at Marvel write minority characters as stereotypes (BMB being one of them).  
I couldn't agree less. He's transformed Luke Cage from this stereotype into something special. In fact if not for BMB, Luke wouldn't be such a fan favorite right now. As a follower of BMB's work I can't think of one other character he's stereotyped and that's including heavy handedness Jewish with Jessica Jones. Now if you had said Mark Millar, we would be in agreement.

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I also agree with you guys who say new characters of diverse ethnicity need to be created (as opposed to being legacy characters)...Some of my favorite characters of color/ethnicity (whether they are stereotypes or not is up for debate)...Shaman, Talisman and Windshear of Alpha Flight....I was a fan of Jubilee, when she first appeared (I lost interest in her over the years, I'm not sure if it was the way she was written or what)...I was also a fan of some of the New Mutants (Dani Moonstar and Shan/Karma).
Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
Shaman has been killed (Grrrrrrrr!), Windshear, Jubilee and Moonstar were all depowered during M Day.  I also have to ask why almost every mutant on the planet was depowered, except for mostly those that live in or are citizens of the United States?  What's with that?  Nearly every name on the list of the 198 is an American citizen...Is Wanda a U.S. nationalist?
Windshear was white/British, wasn't he? Regardless, this was actually explained. The combined power of Emma and Dr Strange protected most of the people who were at the assault on Wanda in the House of M reality. Furthermore, the mutants who were depowered were either 1) redundant 2) noprofitable (seriously no one cares what color those CC' Excalibur mutants were, they were just dull) or 3) all of the above and either something weird that Morrison created or leftovers from the 90's mutant expansion.

Previsionary

#67
Hrm... Bendis has done Luke a favor, but he "does" stereotype him with all the "yo yo yos" and the constant swearing he now does. But Luke isn't that bad in comparison (especially taking into account he was a blaxploitatious character in the first place) to how Bendis writes Thunderball. You can't be billed as "The Black Bruce Banner," and then be written as a goon with very low comprehension skills. But no, Bendis's problem isn't stereotyping for the most part; it's ignoring continuity and going crazy with his plots that end up on a bland note. Mark Millar, on the other hand, overdoes EVERYTHING. His ego is also way out of whack these days, so I will not talk about him much any longer. I just can't wait to see how he'll out do his defile 'n baby toss scene from Ultimate Avengers 2. *prepares for Old Man Logan 2*

Storm and BP don't have a long history with one another, despite Marvel trying to paint it that way. They have a few appearances together... and a mini that came out in an attempt to make their 1 shared issue during childhood into something more grand and feasible. A lot of effort for very little pay off since BP's books keep getting canceled and Storm is background fodder.

Disappear when you least expe--

President Raygun

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

What legacy character is she supposed to be? The only other Talisman at Marvel that I know of is the Aborigine one from "Contest of Champions" and he was created for that comic specifically, as far as I know.

AfghanAnt

Quote from: President Raygun on July 19, 2010, 11:02:30 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

What legacy character is she supposed to be? The only other Talisman at Marvel that I know of is the Aborigine one from "Contest of Champions" and he was created for that comic specifically, as far as I know.

She's a legacy in the sense that she is the basically the second Shaman. She only exist to fill her father's shoes and she easily replaced him several times.

cmdrkoenig67

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I was always a big fan of Storm...But I thought her marrying the Black Panther was a racial PR stunt (I didn't get it then and I still don't get it)...To me, Storm has gone from a resourceful, capable, contributing member and great leader of the X-Men to spoiled trophy wife of a king...IMHO, the character has suffered because of this marriage...In truth, I don't see how this marriage has helped either character.  I can't say that I care for Storm any longer, when the main focus of her character is that she's now a queen with queenly responsibilities. I'm not saying this is the worst thing to happen to these characters, but in my eyes, this move has done nothing to help them.
Storm and BP have a long history together that dates back to 1980. Would you preferred she married Forge? I would have but he left her in the 90's to be with Mystique of all people.

Forge?  No...Nor Bishop or anybody else...I'd rather she remained single and was still leading the X-Men or an X-Men team.  IMHO, Storm was side-lined as an X-Men leader so Quesada's girly-toy Emma could take her place as co-leader.  The only connection Storm had to T'challa from the 80s was an offhand comment about meeting him as a teen, until it was retconned (within the last few years) to be a great romance.  regardless, the marriage was a publicity stunt...Just to get more people of color to read comics.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I happen to feel a few of the current writers at Marvel write minority characters as stereotypes (BMB being one of them).  
I couldn't agree less. He's transformed Luke Cage from this stereotype into something special. In fact if not for BMB, Luke wouldn't be such a fan favorite right now. As a follower of BMB's work I can't think of one other character he's stereotyped and that's including heavy handedness Jewish with Jessica Jones. Now if you had said Mark Millar, we would be in agreement.

Luke under Bendis reads to me as a stereotype (read "street thug"), but that's just the way I see it.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
I also agree with you guys who say new characters of diverse ethnicity need to be created (as opposed to being legacy characters)...Some of my favorite characters of color/ethnicity (whether they are stereotypes or not is up for debate)...Shaman, Talisman and Windshear of Alpha Flight....I was a fan of Jubilee, when she first appeared (I lost interest in her over the years, I'm not sure if it was the way she was written or what)...I was also a fan of some of the New Mutants (Dani Moonstar and Shan/Karma).
Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

Sort of, but she was always had different powers and was more powerful than he was.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Quote from: cmdrkoenig67 on July 19, 2010, 06:11:14 PM
Shaman has been killed (Grrrrrrrr!), Windshear, Jubilee and Moonstar were all depowered during M Day.  I also have to ask why almost every mutant on the planet was depowered, except for mostly those that live in or are citizens of the United States?  What's with that?  Nearly every name on the list of the 198 is an American citizen...Is Wanda a U.S. nationalist?
Windshear was white/British, wasn't he? Regardless, this was actually explained. The combined power of Emma and Dr Strange protected most of the people who were at the assault on Wanda in the House of M reality. Furthermore, the mutants who were depowered were either 1) redundant 2) noprofitable (seriously no one cares what color those CC' Excalibur mutants were, they were just dull) or 3) all of the above and either something weird that Morrison created or leftovers from the 90's mutant expansion.

Windhsear is and always was black...Born in Canada, raised in England.

cmdrkoenig67

#71
Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 20, 2010, 02:13:34 AM
Quote from: President Raygun on July 19, 2010, 11:02:30 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on July 19, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
Talisman is a legacy character though doesn't she exist because of her father and doesn't she act as his stand-in on the Omega Flights?

What legacy character is she supposed to be? The only other Talisman at Marvel that I know of is the Aborigine one from "Contest of Champions" and he was created for that comic specifically, as far as I know.

She's a legacy in the sense that she is the basically the second Shaman. She only exist to fill her father's shoes and she easily replaced him several times.

Nope...That is/was not the point of her origin, she was never meant to fill her father's shoes and she is not a shaman, she was meant for another path all together.  Where her father is a mere magic-user who pulls mystical items from his medicine bag...Elizabeth/Talisman is the binder of spirits and is meant to be the world's most powerful opponent to evil magic.

Shaman's real protege/successor is/was Earthmover...A character introduced in Wolverine, but nothing much has really been done with him.

Dana

BentonGrey

#72
Ehh....for me, the problem is that I love the original characters, all those guys who give people such a headache today because they're all white.  See, it isn't an issue for me.  I don't particularly care what race a character is, although changing races on established characters offends my sense of order.  What I hate is the bizarre, constantly shifting smoke screen that has been created to try to address these issues of inequality.  You've got constant tension between efforts to, as the quote Prev. provided said, pull in new, more diverse groups of readers, and at the same time maintain the older comic fans who know and love those original characters.  Because of that, there seems to be constant chaos going on under the surface of these two companies.  Either, we're torturing this character who's been around for 60 years because we don't have any good ideas for him or her, or we're replacing them, updating them, or otherwise sweeping the character away in almost negligent gestures.  This is why things like the new Aqualad bother me, and this is why I never really get invested in new characters.  You take a character who you've mistreated for ten or twenty years, then kill them.  Yep...good ending....that makes me REALLY want to see what you've got in store for this new character, who just HAPPENS to be of a different race than the Silver Age hero he's replacing.  Whatever the true motivations for these types of stories, it always makes me wonder if a character I cared about didn't just get erased from existence as an exercise in tokenism.  

Instead, what I want, what I've said for years that I want, is for them to tell decent stories with these original characters, stories that GO somewhere, and then give them endings that they deserve.  You don't have to kill off every character you can to replace them with minorities or what have you.  Instead, what about having them retire, train their replacement, act as a mentor, or just live happily ever after.  For example, (and ignoring for the moment the incredibly bad taste that modern DC continuity leaves in my mouth) let's say that instead of having Ray Plamer's wife go insane and murder one of his good friend's wives, they had gotten back together and Ray had retired to teach, passing the torch to his most brilliant student, Ryan Choi.  I would have been a lot more open to Choi from the very beginning, and with Ray Palmer still very much a part of those stories, it's even possible that people wouldn't have been baying for poor Ryan's blood.  I would have been thrilled to keep reading the stories of him as the Atom.  I was enjoying them anyway, but I was always unhappy with the WAY in which DC shuffled that character into that title.  Such a change would have allowed me to enjoy the book with no qualms.

I feel like the way they try to address the problems created by the issue of their classic characters is just backwards.  Creating completely new characters is extremely difficult in a world where comic sales just aren't very large, and having a hero die in a horrible way so that you can replace him just isn't going to endear you to any of that character's fans.  There's a more sensible way to handle this.

I'm using DC examples because I'm more familiar with their (relatively) recent history than with Marvel's, but I'm sure the same thing applies.  
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
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Podmark

Well in the case of the Atom I doubt that shuffling off Ray and bringing in Ryan were related as they were about 2 years apart and had no direct story connection.

Regardless, I like the idea of the older hero retiring and training the younger one. Wish it was done more often.
I'm sure there's a good example of this, but it's not coming to me. Batgirl maybe?
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yell0w_lantern

Yellow Lantern smash!

Tawodi Osdi

I'm going with Benton.  I don't mind older heroes passing the mantle to younger heroes.  I just get tired of the ignominious ways the use to get rid of the older heroes.  Why can't older heroes just ride off into the sunset with their best girl in their arms?  I don't even mind a heroic last stand in a story that matter, but turning them into psychopaths, having them die pointless deaths, or retconning them out of existence just annoy me.  That's one of the main reasons that I don't read comics anymore.  That, and I prefer being able to tell the heroes from the villains without checking who's name is on the cover.

Mr. Hamrick

Quote from: Podmark on July 20, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
Well in the case of the Atom I doubt that shuffling off Ray and bringing in Ryan were related as they were about 2 years apart and had no direct story connection.

Regardless, I like the idea of the older hero retiring and training the younger one. Wish it was done more often.
I'm sure there's a good example of this, but it's not coming to me. Batgirl maybe?

Batgirl is definitely doing that to an extent.  Barbara Gordon (re: the original Batgirl) is mentoring the current Batgirl (Stephanie Brown) as well as the previous Batgirl (Cassandra Cain).  Nevermind the headache it took to get there.

cmdrkoenig67

Quote from: Mr. Hamrick on July 21, 2010, 02:39:48 AM
Quote from: Podmark on July 20, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
Well in the case of the Atom I doubt that shuffling off Ray and bringing in Ryan were related as they were about 2 years apart and had no direct story connection.

Regardless, I like the idea of the older hero retiring and training the younger one. Wish it was done more often.
I'm sure there's a good example of this, but it's not coming to me. Batgirl maybe?

Batgirl is definitely doing that to an extent.  Barbara Gordon (re: the original Batgirl) is mentoring the current Batgirl (Stephanie Brown) as well as the previous Batgirl (Cassandra Cain).  Nevermind the headache it took to get there.

Legion of Batgirls?  LOL!

BWPS

I wish someone could write a decent Flash story. The character is in my opinion one of DC's best and it seems like Geoff Johns is the only one who cares enough to write him well and even he sometimes has trouble keeping a plot going. I don't read Flash anymore but I picked up a tpb the other day and it was about aliens who were going to destroy the world unless they could find a human who was faster than one of them, so Wally goes up against them to buy the JLA time. That very concept makes me want to vomit. Super speed is a good power with WAY more uses than just running as fast as possible in a straight line. Wally West is DC's best non-Batman related character, give him some cool stuff to do.
I apologize in advance for everything I say on here. I regret it immediately after clicking post.

BentonGrey

Quote from: BWPS on July 21, 2010, 04:06:16 AM
I wish someone could write a decent Flash story. The character is in my opinion one of DC's best and it seems like Geoff Johns is the only one who cares enough to write him well and even he sometimes has trouble keeping a plot going. I don't read Flash anymore but I picked up a tpb the other day and it was about aliens who were going to destroy the world unless they could find a human who was faster than one of them, so Wally goes up against them to buy the JLA time. That very concept makes me want to vomit. Super speed is a good power with WAY more uses than just running as fast as possible in a straight line. Wally West is DC's best non-Batman related character, give him some cool stuff to do.

Man, that sounds like a bad Silver Age plot!
God Bless
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BentonGrey

Quote from: Podmark on July 20, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
Well in the case of the Atom I doubt that shuffling off Ray and bringing in Ryan were related as they were about 2 years apart and had no direct story connection.

Regardless, I like the idea of the older hero retiring and training the younger one. Wish it was done more often.
I'm sure there's a good example of this, but it's not coming to me. Batgirl maybe?

I didn't meant to imply that they offed Ray to bring in Ryan, but his character was very much colored by what they had done to his predecessor.  Unfortunately in the case of Batgirl, Barbra Gordon got shot in the spine.  Also not the ending I'd like to see for her career, although I understand it created some decent stories.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
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Previsionary

It created a lot of decent stories, character growth, and some essential development AFTER the fact, yes. All it took was a good writer who cared getting to her. :P
Disappear when you least expe--

murs47

Quote from: BentonGrey on July 21, 2010, 04:20:59 AM
Man, that sounds like a bad Silver Age plot!

Weren't they all bad?

BentonGrey

Quote from: murs47 on July 21, 2010, 04:26:20 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on July 21, 2010, 04:20:59 AM
Man, that sounds like a bad Silver Age plot!

Weren't they all bad?

Nah, I've read some great ones, but then there are the rest.
God Bless
"If God came down upon me and gave me a wish again, I'd wish to be like Aquaman, 'cause Aquaman can take the pain..." -Ballad of Aquaman
Check out mymods and blog!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/

Podmark

Quote from: BentonGrey on July 21, 2010, 04:22:15 AM
I didn't meant to imply that they offed Ray to bring in Ryan, but his character was very much colored by what they had done to his predecessor. 

Yeah I know what you were saying. I think what I was trying to say is that because comics have largely lacked a singular guiding hand over their history you get a lot of abrupt direction shifts and a lack of overall direction. So it's unfortunate that a new character and book was negatively affected by a older story that wasn't directly connected to it.


What happened to Barbara was terrible, but honestly I love that it happened because it led to the creation of Oracle which is one of my favorite developments in comics. It's a shinning example that even bad stories can lead to good ones.
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