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Thought Experiment

Started by Tawodi Osdi, March 11, 2010, 06:11:49 AM

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Tawodi Osdi

I am currently taken a philosophy class, and I have learned that many early philosophers believed that the reason we can interpret data is that the data is already stored in our minds as forms.  For example, we can contemplate a triangle because the triangle form is already in our minds.  By extrapolation, if this were true, anything we are capable of knowing is already stored as forms in our minds.  Things like kung fu and space shuttles would have already existed within our minds from the beginning of time, and from further extrapolation, it can be deduced that any future discoveries, like laser swords and teleporters, would be there also.  Now, let's imagine a character with the power of Formal Awareness.  How could this character function in pre-subscribed universes like the DC universe or Marvel universe?  How could this character be used in a self-created universe.

DrMike2000

Cool idea. So Formal Awareness would allow you to know everything that ever will be known?

There's a lot of existing powers that have the effective upshot of allowing the character to make the right decision.

Super-senses of any kind (Superman, Daredevil, Mister Sensitive in X-Statix)
Super-intelligence, using a higher than normal quality of internal model to predict what happens next. (Braniac 5, Batman kind of))
Precognition - using a more woolly mystical sense to know what happens next (Dream Girl, Nicholas Cage in Next, the main girl's dad in ESPERS)
Omniscience - super intuition that allows ytou to know stuff without explaining how or why. (Captain Marvell's Cosmic Awareness, Alan Black in ESPERs I think)

Of all of these, omniscience is really the best, and boils down all the causes of the other powers into just the effect. Do you make the right decision? If so, then, yes, the superpower worked well for you. In an existing universe it could be pretty cool what you could do with this ability. You'd know how to build a Green Lantern ring, for example, even if the steps weren't simple or straightforwards (eg you need an Oan Plasma moulder first, which requires several grams of Cosmium 235 metal to construct, which can be found only on planet blah blah....).
If any character has powers acquired purely by learning (eg Doc Strange? Iron Fist?) then you, by definition, have them too. Well, unless there's some physical discipline involved too, you might not be as good as the original.

In a self-contained universe, the author can rule out things like the existence of a martial art that lets you punch mountains merely by knowing how to.


Stranger Than Fiction:
The Strangers, Tales of the Navigator and Freedom Force X
www.fundamentzero.com

Tawodi Osdi

I do not view this guy as being truly precognitive.  First, there would have to some kind of clue that something was going to happen.  He might predict that the ninja in front of him is about to do a spinning back kick based upon ninja's footing, but predicting what the incoming throwing star from the ninja in the bushes would be right out.  Then, you have to deal with processing speed.  Just because he can predict the ninja's next move and the best response to that move doesn't mean he will get the answer in time to save his teeth from splattering all over the sidewalk.  The guy would be potentially powerful but not infinitely so.

Tawodi Osdi

Unless, in this universe, everyone is a latent super human. In which case, this guy would be almost godlike.

tommyboy

Leaving aside that your extrapolation is fundamentally flawed (merely knowing the letters of the alphabet does not mean I already know every word, sentence or idea ever made with said letters, merely that I know the letters, and can then more easily know the words, sentences etc. I know what a brick is, but I cannot extrapolate that into knowing in advance every single structure made with bricks).
If your Formal Awareness were to function the power would be a cross between Forge of the Xmen and MacGyver(sp?). Easy invention of devices and things, and being able to make anything out of almost anything. Give me a box of lego and some macaroni, and I make a time machine. To limit the power, most or all "inventions" should be only of limited use, say one to 5 shots, because of some mumbo-jumbo about structural integrity and the ideas bending "idea-space". Plus, you could only do each one once, like "dial-h-for-hero". No power-spamming, if you please.

Tawodi Osdi

The idea of forms and essences is fundamentally flawed, but since we are dealing with comic book reality, anything is possible.  After all, when was the last time someone got super powers from being bitten by a radioactive spider(Spider-Man), and if a dwarf star were to land on Earth, the gravitational effects would pull the planet apart long before you could use it to fuel a shrinking ray(The Atom).

tommyboy

Quote from: Tawodi Osdi on March 14, 2010, 12:28:59 AM
The idea of forms and essences is fundamentally flawed, but since we are dealing with comic book reality, anything is possible.  After all, when was the last time someone got super powers from being bitten by a radioactive spider(Spider-Man), and if a dwarf star were to land on Earth, the gravitational effects would pull the planet apart long before you could use it to fuel a shrinking ray(The Atom).
...but, but those things actually happened. I saw them in some documentary type real-life true story comics...Comics wouldn't lie to me :(

Viking

One version of omniscience has been explored in the Dresden files, written by Jim Butcher.  (Not a comic book, though Butcher is a comic book fan, and I can't help but wonder if this is sometimes an influence on his writing.)

Specifically, such omniscience has taken the form of automatically knowing the answer to a question.  It requires active thought to form the question, but the answer then comes automatically.  E.g., a person with omniscience may not realize that a sniper is aiming a rifle at him - he's simply not thinking about it as a relevant issue at the time.  But if a shot rings out, and the omniscient person thinks, "I wonder where that shot came from," then he might get a sudden and complete visualization of what building the sniper is in, on what floor, out of which window he is aiming, etc.

It is like unto being an oracle - put in a question, and get an instant and precise answer.  Not knowing when or how to phrase the right question is what can lead to the fun limitations that provide tension within the story.

Even more specifically, one of Butcher's recent books involved a spirit that resided on an island at the source of a powerful magical ley line.  The spirit had omniscience with respect to things and events on the island.  The main character formed a pact with this spirit, and gained access to this limited island-bound omniscience.  This had natural benefits:

1) He instinctively knew when to lengthen his step, shorten his stride, duck, or jump so as to be able to run at a flat-out sprint through a forest at night, without tripping over roots or slamming into trees or branches.

2) When he concentrated on the issue, he knew when strangers were arriving on the island, in what numbers, and in what locations.  Though he did not have a visualization of their identities.  (Presumably a deliberate limitation imposed by author fiat, since it would otherwise ruin further suspense.)

3) When facing an opponent that was cloaked with invisibility, said invisibility provided no advantage - the main character always knew exactly where to aim to target the opponent.

Ultimately, in writing such a power into a storyline, one simply needs to take care to think of how far the power will extend before it becomes so useful that it ruins all potential suspense.