Final Crisis

[The Hitman]

Just a simple question, could someone explain to me what this was all about, beginning to end, what changes will be made, and what do I need to read to "get" what Grant Morrison is trying to tell us?

Because, to be honest, while I usually pick up on tough storylines with relative ease, and I'm sure there's a great story in there (with Morrison, there usually is), I just couldn't get into this one. It all has to do with Jack Kirby's characters, right? Is that why Sammy Sumo is there?

[deano_ue]

i missed #3 and #4. what in the hell happened

and how was catwoman and batwoman fighting the huntress and question and be part of WW's female furies, in different costumes

[detourne_me]

i'll get back to you once i have a chance to a)read through all 7 again and b)wait for the acid to wear off.

near as i can tell, it's like a comic book version of Girl Talk, a mash-up of hyper-related proportions.
Bendis has been pioneering the decompressed style of storytelling,  i'm guessing morrison wanted to pioneer the hyper-compressed style.

now, how everything fits together, and what type of timeline they are on i have no idea:D

[Vertex]

Final Crisis to me......


It's Final Give a Damn... build up build up... build up... oh I can't come up with anything let's just ... uh.. yeah.. uh.. yeah that' finishes it yeah yeah.

[yell0w_lantern]

I read all 7 issues and I'm not convinced there was much of a story.
What little exposition occurs does not seem to relate to whatever is going on in the books. A villain pops out of nowhere and a deus-ex-machina solves the whole thing.
The only change seems to be that the Monitors may be gone but they were gone from DC for 20 years until they decided to make Countdown - which apparently did not tie-in to Final Crisis at all, from what I hear.

[The Hitman]

Well, CBR spelled out the "bare- bones" reading order, so that answers one of my questions. The order is:

Seven Soldiers: Mr. Miracle #1-4
Final Crisis #1-3
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond 3-D #1-2
Final Crisis: Submit #1
Final Crisis #4-7

EDIT: No, I read that Countdown does not tie into Final Crisis in the least. Morrison told DC to do whatever they want for Countdown, but don't touch The New God. DC did, so Morrison decided to ignore it.

[BentonGrey]

Lovely.

[yell0w_lantern]

So if there is a story, it's not all actually contained in the series that was sold as a single story.

[The Hitman]

Yeah, pretty much.

Oh, I guess they brought back Old School Aquaman, but he didn't do anything to progress the story.

(Wait, I guess that's no different than usual, so... )

[tommyboy]

It certainly is dense, (in the textual, thematic sense, not the intellectually lacking one).
But I have to say I've loved it even though on first and sometimes second or third readings I don't always "get" it all.
Perhaps I am blinded by the dazzle of art and text, and cannot see it as being weak, but I thought that it was the strongest Big Event for decades.
It had integrity in it's exploration of themes such as the power of language, the nature of reality and creation, the definitions of freedom and slavery. It had some wonderful art and very powerful moments, the shot of

Spoiler

all the supermen of 50 odd universes flying towards the camera

was absolutely excellent.
I too need to reread it all, maybe a couple of times before Final Judgement, but my first response is pretty much all positive.

[Vertex]

It certainly is dense, (in the textual, thematic sense, not the intellectually lacking one).
But I have to say I've loved it even though on first and sometimes second or third readings I don't always "get" it all.
Perhaps I am blinded by the dazzle of art and text, and cannot see it as being weak, but I thought that it was the strongest Big Event for decades.
It had integrity in it's exploration of themes such as the power of language, the nature of reality and creation, the definitions of freedom and slavery. It had some wonderful art and very powerful moments, the shot of

Spoiler

all the supermen of 50 odd universes flying towards the camera

was absolutely excellent.
I too need to reread it all, maybe a couple of times before Final Judgement, but my first response is pretty much all positive.

I completely disagree with you on all points other than your spoiler being a very cool image.. other than that.. the final issue made me wanna retch.

[tommyboy]

It certainly is dense, (in the textual, thematic sense, not the intellectually lacking one).
But I have to say I've loved it even though on first and sometimes second or third readings I don't always "get" it all.
Perhaps I am blinded by the dazzle of art and text, and cannot see it as being weak, but I thought that it was the strongest Big Event for decades.
It had integrity in it's exploration of themes such as the power of language, the nature of reality and creation, the definitions of freedom and slavery. It had some wonderful art and very powerful moments, the shot of

Spoiler

all the supermen of 50 odd universes flying towards the camera

was absolutely excellent.
I too need to reread it all, maybe a couple of times before Final Judgement, but my first response is pretty much all positive.

I completely disagree with you on all points other than your spoiler being a very cool image.. other than that.. the final issue made me wanna retch.

Fight!
Fight!
Fight!
It's certainly not faultless.
It did read as a bit "jumbled up" to me, which I assumed was a deliberate attempt to convey the idea of all reality/time collapsing into the black hole in Darseids heart (and I'm confused enough by it to not know if that odd statement is correct in any way).
It did suffer from "last issue as a flashback told to us rather than shown" syndrome a la Secret *ptui* Invasion to some extent.
But y'know, you like what you like, and dislike what you dislike, that's art for ya. I liked it, but you didn't. Both responses are OK.
From your point of view at least its over, that has to count for something. I still gotta squirm through "Dark Reign"...

[BentonGrey]

*kills Hitman* Yeah, that was almost enough to make me pick it up.

[yell0w_lantern]

I took issue (ha ha ha) with lumping Captain Marvel in as just being a different incarnation of Superman. I have a Captain Marvel figure displayed in my office and no one has yet mistaken him for Big Blue.

[tommyboy]

I took issue (ha ha ha) with lumping Captain Marvel in as just being a different incarnation of Superman. I have a Captain Marvel figure displayed in my office and no one has yet mistaken him for Big Blue.

I read it as being that Cap M and the Question rounded up the Supermen, but weren't Superman analogues themselves. I'll have to reread the 3d issues to check that though..

[Vertex]

Here's the thing to me and maybe you'll understand a bit more why I'm so sick of both Marvel and DC and their EVENTS

The original Crisis of Infinite Earths did a few things that some people didn't like. It did some things we all still to this day go wow.. they really did that.

but it was MAJOR! Whether you agreed with what came out of it or not you agreed that it went cross title.. affected so many many characters.. brought new characters in.. took many characters out.

With these modern "events" they go cross title (which seems way more obvious to be a stunt to sell comics than to tell the story) they've gone so far as to have the build up for the events take an entire year. Now a couple of issues in a series. that's a normal build up that can have a normal 1 issue ending. Nothing major needs to happen to justify the suspense. But to build up over a year I'm sorry, you're raising the bar on expectations. Marvel's invasion series had a few things in it that justified it "slightly"  But to me.. this whole Final Crisis came to a conclusion that was a dud. You didn't even get a grand battle to settle it all. This was an atom bomb that turned out to be roman sparkler to me and yes I feel rather unhappy about it.

This all said I'm glad some people like it. On a small level I did "like" that conclusion but as the ending to a 3 or 5 issue series of JLA for example.

[tommyboy]

Here's the thing to me and maybe you'll understand a bit more why I'm so sick of both Marvel and DC and their EVENTS

The original Crisis of Infinite Earths did a few things that some people didn't like. It did some things we all still to this day go wow.. they really did that.

but it was MAJOR! Whether you agreed with what came out of it or not you agreed that it went cross title.. affected so many many characters.. brought new characters in.. took many characters out.

With these modern "events" they go cross title (which seems way more obvious to be a stunt to sell comics than to tell the story) they've gone so far as to have the build up for the events take an entire year. Now a couple of issues in a series. that's a normal build up that can have a normal 1 issue ending. Nothing major needs to happen to justify the suspense. But to build up over a year I'm sorry, you're raising the bar on expectations. Marvel's invasion series had a few things in it that justified it "slightly"  But to me.. this whole Final Crisis came to a conclusion that was a dud. You didn't even get a grand battle to settle it all. This was an atom bomb that turned out to be roman sparkler to me and yes I feel rather unhappy about it.

This all said I'm glad some people like it. On a small level I did "like" that conclusion but as the ending to a 3 or 5 issue series of JLA for example.

A fair point, well made.
Yes, I long for a Big Story that takes place in one title in 1-10 issues (pref. 1-6), no crossovers, backstory knowledge adds to it but not essential.
Otherwise, yes, these things tend to leave me cold, by and large.
But I've always been a sucker for Morrison (when he writes like he cares), which is maybe why I give FC a pass.

[The Hitman]

Yes, I long for a Big Story that takes place in one title in 1-10 issues (pref. 1-6), no crossovers, backstory knowledge adds to it but not essential.

That is why I enjoyed Green Lantern: Rebirth so much when it came out. #1-6, no crossovers, and the story filled in the backstory as it went.

[yell0w_lantern]

I just noticed that Ultiman from Big Bang Comics is in the group of Superman-types. Makes me wonder if it was just a nod or if DC has acquired the character.


Justice was a good 12 part story. Although because I didn't collect it until TPB I didn't languish waiting for Ross to finish it.

[BentonGrey]

Now Justice was awesome, I got it in TPB as well.

[Mahu]

As a story about the end of reality, on a conceptual level, it is very dense,

I think the story fell apart though on the basics:

1. The idea of Darksied unleashing the anti-life equation and dragging all of reality into a literal nothingness is cool. However, his ultimate goal was never fully explained. What was the purpose of what he was doing. I can understand a villian that wants to enslave all of creation to his will, but the story seemed to be about his destruction of reality, and ultimately what is the goal for that?

2. Mandrakk the Dark Monitor was an awful, not fully realized creation. So he was some kinda space vampire that feeds of the bleed? What connection did he have with Darksied, and what really was his goal.

3. Superman got way to complicated in his storyline whilst all the other characters had maybe a page to do anything.

4. The repercussions of the story are hard to see. We don't know who died because the artwork was to confusing.

Ultimately it felt like a 24 issue epic badly edited down to fit 7 issues.

I would love to see a "directors cut" of this story, where the characters are fully fleshed out and the threat is better defined.

[murs47]

I cried.

[Vertex]

I cried.

Cause you paid for the issue?

[murs47]

I cried.

Cause you paid for the issue?

Nuh uh! It was a deep and emotionally impacting story. Everyone should read it.

[DrMike2000]

The Finale left me cold. I read them all again last night hoping it would come together as a whole, and it didn't really.
It was far from perfect.

Apparently Morrison was going for a sort of worm's eye of the apocalypse, like Cloverfield, where rather than getting an omniscient view of the fall of the world with exposition or narration, you just see things from the characters points of view. This I think was a mistake for such a massive dense story.

It left huge holes.
The Super Young team, for example. According to all the rules of story telling, you'd think they're going to actually do something importnat later on. We first see them being derided by the superhero establishment (SunFire) as a bunch of useless poseurs. They then gain a couple of mentors, Mr Miracle and Sunny Sumo, who are established as important heroic figures. If you're familiar with Kirby, or read interviews on the net, links are drawn between them and the cosmic road-trip flower-children Forever People. So this all points to a baptism of fire with these children coming out of it as more adult, responsible heroic figures whilst still holding on to their naive charm, right?
Well, by the end of issue seven, they've done nothing, and get displayed by Nix Uotan as part of his all impressive army of heroes alongside Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew! Did I miss something here?

Let me compare this to say, hmm, Geoff John's Superman and the Legion 6-parter a while back. That was a very safe nostalgia-wallow in many ways, with repeated scenes reintroducing familiar characters. Yay! Polar Boy! Two pages later: Yay! Shadow Lass and Night Girl! It had a very cool premise to it, with an easily read anti-racist message, a cool new spin on the Legion as the kids who made Superboy's childhood much more fun, and spoke about the nature of the in-crowd and outsiders. It had some really good character moments too. So Johns aimed low, and scored a bullseye here. A great piece of superhero fiction, mainly aimed at old time fans who'd get all the references.

In comparison, Morrison aimed high with Final Crisis and failed. He wanted to disorient the reader. He wanted to tell a story involving multiple threats, not just the evil New Gods having already descended on earth and won but something else evil with the power to create and destroy multiverses lurking there. He wanted to kill Batman or something in the process, and bring back Barry Allen. And create and showcase new superteams. And and and...
And yeah, he blew my mind, but not in a good way. It had its moments but lacked the overall cohesion to the point where it just feels like it didnt mean anything.

[Vertex]

sadly that's where it left me.. with it meaning nothing. I agree so much got started and nothing really came from most of it.

[Zippo]

One of my friends mentioned that his problem with Final crisis was that it was a bunch of interesting ideas, but they were all just thrown together and none of them are fleshed out as much as he'd have liked them to be. I mean, we have:

Spoiler

-Darkseid's plot, and the rebirth of the new gods (which I still don't fully understand...)
-Vandal Savage being Cain, and beating up the Spectre
-Mandraak and the Supermen
-Something to do the with the flashes?
-The tatooed man's strange circuit thing.
-Probably a bunch of other interesting concepts that I dont remember because they were only mentioned on one page.

A bunch of these things could have been an even in and of themselves, and been very interesting. But instead we're left with this rushed, hodge-podge mess of a story, that teases you with great ideas and then forgets about them in favor of something else. It's like the entire event was written by a genius on acid with ADD, but didn't turn out nearly as cool as that sounds.

Spoiler

I did have one overwhelming issue with the event, though, and that was how easily Superman rectified the situation. Everyone else on earth is fighting for their lives, facing the emotional trauma of battling their loved ones, and with the constant threat of being turned into a mindless drone, while superman jets off to a crazy other dimension, meets up with a bajillion other supermen, kicks the poop out of an evil monitor, rattles on about some stuff I don't understand, saves his wife, then proceeds to kick the poop out of the evil monitor again, only with an army of supermen to help him. All the while we've got characters all over touting his greatness; "Only superman could do such a thing!", "Superman is the only being that could be trusted with the ultimate weapon!", "Superman tastes great and is low in saturated fat!"
At no point was superman really in any real danger. The only time he even came close to being defeated, he was just controlling a giant robo-supes.
Honestly, this event made me see Lex Luthor's point. This event would have been so much more interesting without Superman at all. He completely disregarded the best themes of the event, which were making tough choices, never giving up, and how the human race has the tendency to endure through the worst of times. Superman is the strongest there is, and apparently also morally infallible. We're even shown that Nazi superman is really just a good guy.
I know superman can be a good character when written well, when he's given tough choices to make and taxed mentally, as he's rarely ever matched physically, but seriously, his entire motivation was: Help extra-dimensional being in exchange for saving Lois -> beat up extra-dimensional vampire to save multiverse. The tattooed man was a far more compelling character then superman; coming to the realization that he just wanted a good life for his family, and the best way to do that was to be a hero, and yet he's a side character while Supes gets his own book.

GRAAAUUUUGGGHHH!!! *huff* *huff*... okay, rant over.

But other than that, I thought it was pretty decent.

[tommyboy]

Allllrighty then.
I just finished reading FC #1 to #7 in one sitting, and I take back all the positive things I said earlier.

And replace them with even more positive things!

This was a great comic book, not a good one.
Bursting at the seams with intelligence, humour, emotion, poetry and hope.
The more I have reread every issue the more things tied together, the more sense it made. And reading them all together works so well.
There are so many fantastic ideas, so many brilliant lines, and kick-bottom moments, so much density of intellect and feeling that it's in a class above other comic books.
No, it's not an especially easy read in many ways. It requires some effort from you to follow and understand what is happening, and why it is happening. And so much is happening, compared to the watery, diluted, decompressed rubbish we've been fed for so many years now, that it feels uncomfortable, cluttered even, to have so much go on. Secret Invasion and Dark Reign barely contain one idea between them, but this, this is like mainlining concepts after a lifetime of inanity.
The pace of the 7th issue feels absurd until you read it immediately after the first six, and then it's tempo fits perfectly with the ever accelerating rhythm of ideas and events that has built up since issue one.
And did somebody say there was no big fight? From issue four on there was constant massive battles, sprawling and surging off the page, culminating with the GLs doing their thing.
And although there was a great deal of affection for and reference to the legacy of DC history throughout, ("flash fact!") it never felt cliched, predictable or like anything we'd seen before.
The scope of it, the ambition, were wonderful.
I rank it right up there, probably Morrison's best work ever.
Perfect? No, prolly not. But a hell of a ride.
5 stars. Out of 5.

[The Hitman]

Of course it makes more sense when read together- Morrison writes for the trade. I've always said that. I'm gonna wait until the hardback comes out (what I've done with most DC Crises), and see what I think of it from there.

[Vertex]

Oh god..

They got to Tommyboy!

Please folks whatever you do... don't let them get you.