Freedom Reborn

Community Forums => Comics => Topic started by: BentonGrey on January 02, 2016, 09:16:24 PM

Title: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 02, 2016, 09:16:24 PM
Howdy gents, I'm starting a new semi-regular (maybe once a month or so) feature on the Greylands as a break from my doctoral work.  In it I'll be reading through the breadth of DC Comics through the Bronze Age and offering commentary and assessment.  If that sounds interesting to you, check out the maiden voyage here:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/into-the-bronze-age/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on January 03, 2016, 03:09:19 AM
I quite enjoyed reading your column, Benton. Nice touch using good ol' Frank Stiles for your reviews.

A question, since I've read very little DC before Crisis: Did they credit the authors? If so, it could be a nice touch to add them after each title, if only to help search engines find your entries. While I'm at it, a couple more suggestions: If you can get larger images, so much the better. The full-width ones convey a much better sense of the story. Lastly—sorry for the typographic rant—, the text alignment switches back and forth between ragged left and justified. The former is so much better, as current browsers justification algorithms and low-resolution screens can't compete with traditional desktop publishing, manual type setting and the high resolution of traditional printing.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 03, 2016, 05:54:01 AM
Howdy Epimethee, thanks so much for reading it and offering feedback; I really appreciate that!

They did not usually credit creative teams at this time, but I CAN get that information without too much trouble thanks to the wonders of the internet.  It actually occurred to me that I should do so JUST as I finished the post today, and I didn't want to go back and mess with all of that at the moment, but I will add it in and be sure to include it for future posts.

I agonized over the format questions.  I really did.  Wordpress just won't do what I really want it to do, which is to wrap the text neatly around the images adn let me make the images pop out when you click on them.  I've gone back and edited it a bit to make the images larger and the text all less justified (looks a bit messy to me), what do you think?  I'm worried about the images overpowering the text, but I welcome feedback and suggestions, as well as tips from those more tech-savvy than myself.

I'm really happy to hear that you enjoyed my musings, and I'm glad you liked my ratings system.  I thought that would be fun. :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on January 04, 2016, 02:07:08 AM
Good job on the update! The added credits made me realize why the name Cary Bates (behind Action Comics #384) ringed a bells: He wrote Video Jack for Epic, with pencils by Giffen. The concept played to Bates' (and Giffen's) strengths much better than Superman, IIRC.

Quote
Wordpress just won't do what I really want it to do, which is to wrap the text neatly around the images and let me make the images pop out when you click on them.  I've gone back and edited it a bit to make the images larger and the text all less justified (looks a bit messy to me), what do you think?  I'm worried about the images overpowering the text (…)

Personally, I think it's better now. On one hand, I wouldn't worry about the images overpowering the text too much—comics are the topic, after all. On the other, however, wrapping text around images without interfering with reading comfort is hard, especially on the Web, and probably more so using a CMS such as Wordpress. The full-width images are good, and so are the smaller images aligned left, as you used for the covers. The smallest recommended number of characters per lines is around 35-40, spaces included. Under the Action Comics #384 review, the second image, action-384-07-06.jpg is too large (less than 20 characters fit beside it), while the last one, action-384-22-04.jpg, even if it's aligned right, still works, as its column is 40-character wide; of course, the fact that the words on its left are short also help, by avoiding any huge line length variation.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 21, 2016, 03:11:02 AM
And post #2 is up!  This covers February 1970, or rather, the first half of the issues for that month.  I've decided to break the posts up to make them a little less overwhelming and to get them out a bit more often:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/01/20/into-the-bronze-age-february-1970/

Thanks Epimethee!  I really appreciate your feedback on format, as this is fairly new territory for me.  I've tried to take your advice to heart in this latest post.

I'm rather excited that this outing brought me to both Aquaman and JLA.  I'm excited to be covering those books.  Well, I hope y'all will find this interesting and will share your feedback with me!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on January 23, 2016, 07:00:50 PM
Interesting read! I never realized Frank Robbins, renowned Johnny Hazard artist, was mainly a writer. Aparo… He's not an artist I ever liked much (mind you, I read very little vintage DC), because of the way he drew faces. From the screenshots, though, I can see why you liked his work so much. Smooth and spectacular. There's also a hint of Milton Caniff in the art at Diversions of the Groovy Kind you linked to (and interestingly, the Caniff influence is very different to what's seen in the aforementioned Robbins).

Good job on the layout: the text/images interplay has a really nice flow, each reinforcing the other.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 24, 2016, 12:52:48 AM
Thanks Ep!  Yeah, I am really learning a lot by doing this.  I'm getting a much broader perspective on who's doing what and such.  Well, if you haven't read DC in the 70s, you haven't seen Aparo in his heyday.  As he got older, his vision began to fail, and his work wasn't quite as good, naturally.  He definitely brings something utterly fitting to Aquaman, though.  As you say, smooth and spectacular. 

Thanks!  I think it's looking a good deal better.

I'm really glad you're enjoying this little project, man.  Thanks for the support and the feedback!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 24, 2016, 06:26:28 AM
Annnd February Part 2 is up, including a really painful Superman issue!  :P
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/into-the-bronze-age-february-1970-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 24, 2016, 11:09:29 PM
Ohh, and I've got a question for anyone reading along at home.  How many issues would be the right amount for coverage in a single post?  Is breaking a month in half good, or should I subdivide even further?  I welcome feedback on this.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on January 25, 2016, 05:41:07 AM
Ohh, and I've got a question for anyone reading along at home.  How many issues would be the right amount for coverage in a single post?  Is breaking a month in half good, or should I subdivide even further?  I welcome feedback on this.

I'd say two issues for a post would a nice number; three at most. As is, it takes me three-five minutes to read through your coverage of just one issue, so splitting the posts into bite-sized chunks would make them more digestible, I think.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on January 28, 2016, 03:32:31 AM
I agree with Kkhohoho, 2-3 would be the sweet spot.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 28, 2016, 05:10:02 AM
Thanks guys, I imagine you're right on the money!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 28, 2016, 11:05:14 PM
And speaking of, here is the newly minted next post:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/01/28/into-the-bronze-age-march-1970-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on January 30, 2016, 07:07:14 PM
Enjoyable read again, Benton. :)

Interesting to see an old hand like Novick (it's one of his work which was famously “lichtensteinified”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaam!#/media/File:Roy_Lichtenstein_Whaam.jpg ) change his clearly classic style to follow the trendy style of Neal Adam.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 07, 2016, 06:20:21 AM
Well folks, here is this week's post, just barely under the wire:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/02/06/into-the-bronze-age-march-1970-part-2/

I've also given the site a visual overhaul.  I hope y'all will give me some feedback on its looks!  I agonized over the theme, as there just aren't any that are interesting to look at, readable, and had the format I wanted, at least not for free.  I'm not a hundred percent on anything yet, but I do like the layout of this theme better, and it is certainly easier to read, which is necessary now that I'm using this for more than just a collection for my mods.  Please tell me what y'all think!

Yeah, there's a perceptible movement in the comics of this era towards the more realistic style of folks like Adams.

Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on February 08, 2016, 05:10:51 AM
Much better on larger-resolution screens indeed. It breathes better, and the beige background makes reading more comfortable.

Nitpicks: The Header and background images are too compressed. The header, in particular, is displaying extreme JPEG compression artifacts. The Kirby background image, for its part, is, by itself, amazing, but, as a background decoration, too busy and distracts from the content. You could try to reduce its contrast and give it a tint, but then again, the image would lose much of its cachet.

And yes, I enjoyed reading you, of course! ;)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 10, 2016, 04:57:18 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Em! 

Yeah, I think this design is really growing on me.  I'm starting to get used to it. 

I assume you mean that image is a bit pixilated, would that be correct?  I'm afraid your vocabulary is a bit too technical for me!  :P  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any larger resolution images of that Aquaman pic, so I'm limited in that department.  I agree about the Kirby tech background, but I just love that image, so I have had a hard time bringing myself to change it.  Plus, I've had a hard time finding something to change it TO. 

I've been looking for a nice Kirby starfield, and I found something I like pretty well.  Check it out and tell me what y'all think!  I think it may work.

I'm glad you enjoyed the read, Em!  I'm quite enjoying the process of writing these posts, and it's nice to know I've got an audience.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on February 12, 2016, 05:18:44 AM
Quote
I assume you mean that image is a bit pixilated, would that be correct?  I'm afraid your vocabulary is a bit too technical for me!
Sorry for the technical gibberish, Benton. The images do appear somewhat pixelated on my screen, but it probably won't be a big issue for most visitors. I was rather referring to the pattern (especially, here, the noisy halo around every outline) which appears when trying to reduce aggressively the filesize of an image using the JPEG format. (You can often see the same kind of issue in videos compressed with MPEG, as it uses the same algorithm.)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 13, 2016, 02:41:05 AM
Another week another post!  Join me for the next three issues in March 1970!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/into-the-bronze-age-march-1970-part-3/

Em, thanks for the response!  I hadn't noticed that "noisy halo."  What can/should I do about that?  What do you think of the new background?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on February 13, 2016, 03:53:28 PM
Quote
I hadn't noticed that "noisy halo."  What can/should I do about that?
Well, you could just ignore cranky nitpickers, of course. ;) 

Otherwise, do you have the original image? (Preferably not a JPEG, as it's a destructive format*, meaning that image quality will degrade every time you save it.)

What software do you use to edit and export images?

Quote
What do you think of the new background?
As much as I love the previous Kirby with its pre-columbian feel, the new one works much better here.

*Darkseid uses it a lot.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 14, 2016, 02:06:30 AM
Haha, no, no, I appreciate the help and feedback!  Like I said, this is all out of my baliwick.  What's the best format to use for such things?

I use GIMP for any fancy edits, and I just use the default picture software on Windows for minor stuff.

Glad to hear it!  Yeah, I think this works nicely with the whole feel of the site. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on February 14, 2016, 02:44:07 AM
Quote
What's the best format to use for such things?
JPEG is perfectly fine as a final export format. If your original file doesn't have this halo effect, you're all set. Just export your composite image (i.e., the illustration + your title overlay) using a compression ratio you're satisfied with (i.e, not too many visible artefacts while keeping filesize reasonable).
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 20, 2016, 10:10:40 PM
Thanks Ep!  I'll mess with it some more soon.

In the interim, here we go with another league further in our journey "Into the Bronze Age!"
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/into-the-bronze-age-march-1970-part-4/

(Bonus points if you catch that obscure old-time radio reference!)

This ends March 1970, though I'm afraid we go out with something of a whimper. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 21, 2016, 02:38:18 AM
Both a classic radio (Lone Ranger) and a classic television (Richard Diamond) reference.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 28, 2016, 03:15:40 AM
And one for The Voyage of the Scarlet Queen!

This week's post is up!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/02/27/into-the-bronze-age-april-1970-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 16, 2016, 12:49:02 AM
It's been a while, but how about another journey Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/into-the-bronze-age-april-1970-part-2
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on March 20, 2016, 02:10:46 AM
Interesting reading again, BG. Keep it up! :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 20, 2016, 01:21:13 PM
Thanks Epi!  I really appreciate the feedback and encouragement.   :)

As Epi has already discovered, there's a new post Into the Bronze Age!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/03/19/into-the-bronze-age-may-1970-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: JKCarrier on March 20, 2016, 10:03:03 PM
I've seen that Action Comics cover before, and always thought "There's no way the story could possibly live up to this". But from your description, it sounds like it does! Gotta track that issue down.

The Batman stories of this era have kind of a strange tension going on. On the one hand, they were trying really hard to remove any trace of Adam West-ish shenanigans. On the other hand, they also knew that their audience was still primarily kids, who wouldn't necessarily go for a strictly realistic crime drama. So you still get wacky stuff like killer trout and pyromaniacal Buddhas. It's interesting watching them try to figure out that balance between seriousness and over-the-top-ness.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 20, 2016, 10:29:01 PM
I've seen that Action Comics cover before, and always thought "There's no way the story could possibly live up to this". But from your description, it sounds like it does! Gotta track that issue down.
Haha, it certainly is entertaining! 

The Batman stories of this era have kind of a strange tension going on. On the one hand, they were trying really hard to remove any trace of Adam West-ish shenanigans. On the other hand, they also knew that their audience was still primarily kids, who wouldn't necessarily go for a strictly realistic crime drama. So you still get wacky stuff like killer trout and pyromaniacal Buddhas. It's interesting watching them try to figure out that balance between seriousness and over-the-top-ness.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on March 23, 2016, 02:57:19 AM
As Epi has already discovered, there's a new post Into the Bronze Age!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/03/19/into-the-bronze-age-may-1970-part-1/
What? Me? Nope! I just had the previous post already open from just before leaving for a short trip. :P

But I bid thee a fond farewell, for the corollary is clear: new reading awaits!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 28, 2016, 12:10:31 AM
And even more today!  Yep, I've brought y'all an Easter gift, more Bronze Age-ish goodness!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 08, 2016, 12:13:49 AM
I'm behind again, but it's a good set of tales that make up this week's Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/04/07/into-the-bronze-age-may-1970-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 14, 2016, 02:59:51 AM
And we have another month finished!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/04/13/into-the-bronze-age-may-1970-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on April 14, 2016, 11:49:36 PM
Thanks for these enjoyable reviews, Benton!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 15, 2016, 01:40:24 AM
Thanks for reading, Em! :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on April 15, 2016, 03:20:22 AM
I can understand Aquaman, but I just don't see the problem with Jimmy's helicopter. I mean, he's had it since the '50s (Jimmy Olsen #1, maybe?)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 15, 2016, 03:43:49 AM
DG, I'm not sure what you mean.  I don't have a problem with Jimmy's helicopter (though I didn't know it had that long of a history!), I just sort of remarked that it was strange to me that the Planet had its own private helicopter, as the captions implied.  :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on April 15, 2016, 04:37:52 AM
 ;)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 22, 2016, 10:39:12 PM
Here's another Into the Bronze Age post, beginning June 1970!

https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/04/22/into-the-bronze-age-june-1970-part-1/

So, what do y'all think?  I think the feature has evolved pretty well.  Is there anything that y'all would like to see changed?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: JKCarrier on April 23, 2016, 02:46:20 AM
Another great installment. You can really see the weird tension that existed at DC at the time...titles like Aquaman were experimenting and breaking new ground, while Superman and others were still hanging on to the tropes and gimmicks of yesteryear. It's a struggle that continues to this day, trying to find that balance between maintaining the characters' iconic status while reinventing them for new generations of readers.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on April 23, 2016, 03:42:12 AM
Another great installment. You can really see the weird tension that existed at DC at the time...titles like Aquaman were experimenting and breaking new ground, while Superman and others were still hanging on to the tropes and gimmicks of yesteryear. It's a struggle that continues to this day, trying to find that balance between maintaining the characters' iconic status while reinventing them for new generations of readers.

I can understand that, though honestly, I sometimes think they try to reinvent them too much and too often. What works works; you don't always need to reinvent the wheel. Of course, I realize that my saying this may make me sound like a grumpy old man who loathes change despite my being only 25, but what can you do? ;)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: JKCarrier on April 23, 2016, 03:11:03 PM
I can understand that, though honestly, I sometimes think they try to reinvent them too much and too often. What works works; you don't always need to reinvent the wheel. Of course I realize that my saying this may make me sound like a grumpy old man who loathes change despite my being only 25, but what can you do? ;)

I'm twice your age, so I'm twice as grumpy.  :P There's very little at Marvel and DC that appeals to me anymore, but at some point I just had to accept that I'm not their target audience. Luckily, there are reprints and back issues and indy comix...it's not like I'm lacking things to read. But it's fun to look back on the days when I was a wide-eyed youth, and even the cheesiest comic seemed fresh and new and amazing, which is why I like Benton's column.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 23, 2016, 06:48:21 PM
Thanks JKC!  Yeah, there's a wide gulf between the experimentation, artistically in Aquaman, thematically in Green Lantern, and the staid, business-as-usual work going on in the Superman books.  It's interesting that a character who will shortly acquire a reputation for being conservative and out of touch is actually being portrayed in a style that is just that.  I need to note that in this month's round-up. 

Haha!  I feel ya', Kk.  I was a crotchety old man when I was still a young man, and I've only gotten worse as I've gotten older.  Yet, just like JKC, I've begun to make my peace with the fact that these modern books just aren't for me and gone looking for joy in the classics.  I'm really loving this trip through the Bronze Age, even the rough patches.  And oh boy is the Green Lantern/Green Arrow book a rough patch for me.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on April 23, 2016, 07:50:30 PM
Yeah, but if you were there, most of the GL-GA books were something else. The one with Spiro Agnew would have stunk no matter what, but compared to most of the other DC books, it was interesting and though provoking.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 23, 2016, 08:57:53 PM
I'm sure you're right, DG!  They are amazingly different than everything else on the shelves at the time, clearly.  It's astonishing how much of a departure those books were, and that is what has become clear to me in this little project.  Still, reading them for this second time is a chore for me. :P
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on April 23, 2016, 11:10:08 PM
The Aquaman Trilogy you are highlighting now though is one of my favorites, especially in the way the Deadman back-up is woven through it. I re-read it recently, and, while it is a little rough in places, it still holds up. The art and story in both is excellent, and shows Aparo really developing his style. Soon he will take over from Adams as "The" Batman artist. And yes, today some of the stuff in GL-GA is rather... labored would be a nice way to put it. Still, the whole relevancy thing was new to DC at the time.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 24, 2016, 04:24:02 AM
Yeah, I love this Aquaman adventure.  It really is quite an intriguing arc.  It isn't perfect, but it's definitely just overflowing with creativity and fun.  I don't know that there's ever been an artist that is quite as perfect for Aquaman as Aparo, too.

Haha, yeah, that would be a nice way to say it.  I'm working on the entry for the next issue of the GL/GA series now.  I probably don't have quite as much patience with it as I should, but I just want to smack O'Neil for his portrayal of Hal in this one...and in general.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 02, 2016, 04:20:28 AM
Howdy folks, welcome to another journey Into the Bronze Age!  I hope y'all enjoy it. 
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/05/01/into-the-bronze-age-june-1970-part-2/
Just a word of warning, I was pretty hard on Green Lantern.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on May 04, 2016, 05:44:08 AM
Green Arrow kinda runs on Goodwins law...Drink whenever he calls somebody a fascist,two if it feathered fascist.
I know its still years away,but do you plan on covering Warlord?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 04, 2016, 02:52:33 PM
Haha!  Right!  Yeah, that's a way to make it interesting.  :lol:

Absolutely.  I'm looking forward to that book.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on May 06, 2016, 05:42:22 AM
Its another 5 years down the road,but its spinoff Arak also deserves a look.
And there is Blitzkrieg.
70's were weird for DC. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 06, 2016, 02:47:57 PM
I've actually heard of Arak, but never read it.  I'm looking forward to that one as well!  I'm going to be reading pretty much all of the superhero and fantasy style books they put out, with very few exceptions.  :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on May 06, 2016, 03:45:59 PM
Well,Arak is notable for culturally sensitive portrayal of Native Americans.For its day.And for historicaly acurrate Vikings.Again notable for its day.
Blitzkrieg was a WW2 war comic.Notable for staring the German side.Again weird for its day.So I believe it deserves a look,if you havent already planed on reviewing it.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 29, 2016, 04:12:12 AM
I'm back!  And so is Into the Bronze Age!  I was traveling for a week, delivering a paper at the big medieval conference at Kalamazoo, and then I've just been recovering, but I'm back in the saddle with a new edition of my Bronze Age explorations.  Come and join me for a fun trio of issues!

https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/into-the-bronze-age-june-1970-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: JKCarrier on May 29, 2016, 04:43:27 PM
Nice to see the in-depth examination of that Justice League story. The O'Neil / Friedrich era of JLA gets bashed a lot (and some of it is pretty goofy), but I think there are some real gems in there.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 29, 2016, 06:23:38 PM
I agree JKC.  I really didn't take much note of it on my first read through, but I'm really enjoying this run on this second pass.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on June 07, 2016, 09:37:38 PM
Welcome to the end of June...in...the beginning of June...well, you get the picture.  There's a new post on Into the Bronze Age!

https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/06/07/into-the-bronze-age-june-1970-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on June 08, 2016, 06:31:33 AM
What an interesting entry, Benton!

Who knew that a random Teen Titans comic would inspire the Martian, haha!! :P

I really did enjoy that World's Finest story. Not quite the "epic" adventure, but a fun little infiltration mission for the two. I agree with you about liking that Superman had to use his brains in this one. And what a shame that the head counter didn't get another addition. Drat!

I've missed the past few of your entries, but I'm going to go back and read them. These are great!! :thumbup:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on June 08, 2016, 02:31:39 PM
Why thank you so much, Spyder!  That is very encouraging to hear.  I'm glad you enjoyed this post, and even more so that you enjoyed it enough to read the 'back issues.'  I hope that they prove entertaining!    :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on June 23, 2016, 05:13:47 AM
And a funny thing about Hal's beheviour in Hard Traveling Heroes;he was brain damaged.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2011/10/15/meta-messages-gerard-jones-explains-why-hal-jordan-became-a-hard-traveling-hero/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2011/10/15/meta-messages-gerard-jones-explains-why-hal-jordan-became-a-hard-traveling-hero/)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on June 24, 2016, 01:34:51 AM
Hah!  Well, that newer story looks rather lame, but brain damage would explain a great deal of Hal's characterization for those 'Hard Traveling Heroes' stories.  :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on June 24, 2016, 04:00:34 AM
Ah,the miracle of retcons. :)
Still kinda suprising the story gets referenced and parodied so much.
And keep up the good work Benton.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on June 24, 2016, 04:04:58 AM
Thanks Spade!  I'm working on the next one.  We've had a very busy week, but it is almost done.  I'm hoping to get it up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on August 13, 2016, 03:53:57 AM
Sheesh!  I've finally got another edition of Into the Bronze Age published.  This thing has sat around half finished almost as long as some of my mods!  Join me for another adventure with Bronze Age comics as we start on July 1970.  :D
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/08/12/into-the-bronze-age-july-1970-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 06, 2016, 03:50:12 AM
Hey, happy Labor Day!  Have a new Into the Bronze Age post!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/09/05/into-the-bronze-age-july-1970-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 06, 2016, 05:50:17 AM
There was a villain called Stalker in Batman Beyond.He looked nothing like the one here,but he had the same Big Game Hunter gimmick.I guess this is where they got the inspiration from.
About GL/GA,I think worst is yet to come.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 06, 2016, 03:52:53 PM
Yeah, the Spiro Agnew/Richard Nixon issue.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 09, 2016, 07:13:47 PM
Haha, don't tell me that!  :P

Well, I come bearing the final installment of July 1970!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/into-the-bronze-age-july-1970-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 09, 2016, 07:48:44 PM
April/May 1971 is just around the corner. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on September 10, 2016, 03:58:36 PM
Thanks for another enjoyable read, Benton. And more specifically, thanks for reading this Superman issue so we don't have to! ;)

Looking forward to seeing your review of the King's 4th World.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 11, 2016, 10:07:57 PM
Thanks guys!  I'm very glad that y'all are enjoying these.  That's encouraging. 

Ha!  Epimethee, that cracked me up.  Haha, I'm happy to be providing a public service.  'I'm suffering so you don't have to!'

The very first comic for August has a Super Sons story in it.  Sheesh!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 15, 2016, 03:55:23 AM
Well, that Super Sons story wasn't as bad as I expected, but either way there was a great Aquaman issue to cushion the blow!  Welcome to another edition of Into the Bronze Age!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/09/14/into-the-bronze-age-august-1970-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 16, 2016, 06:01:58 PM
Just an idea,I found thats its always worth checking out the letter pages of older comics.There is always something weird there.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 16, 2016, 08:42:06 PM
I remember thinking that Aquaman would eventually head back to the microverse and save the woman he had befriended, and figuring that Tatsida would show up in Deadman's afterlife again. So far as I know, neither ever happened. Like the Follower Deadman got from The Forever people, and the time Deadman inhabited the body of Bruce Wayne's foster brother or whatever.

If I can remember these things, why can't they?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 17, 2016, 12:39:07 AM
Haha, well, you're actually half right, DG.  I won't spoil it, but one of those things DOES get followed up on.

And yeah, they left a LOT of pitches un-hit in this era.

Spade, yeah, you're certainly right.  I came across a letter from a black fan in the GL book a good while back (late 60s, I think), talking about how much it meant for him to see, not a black superhero, not a black supporting character, but just a black face in a crowd shot.  That really struck me.  That's the kind of thing that hadn't really been visible to me, because I don't have that perspective.  How cool was that?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 17, 2016, 04:50:33 AM
From mothers writing for their kids to letters from American serviceman in Germany.To some you would swear were writen by young Dan DiDio.And others who are all too modern.As in somebody complains about something.There is always something on the letter page.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 17, 2016, 04:34:53 PM
From mothers writing for their kids to letters from American serviceman in Germany.To some you would swear were writen by young Dan DiDio.And others who are all too modern.As in somebody complains about something.There is always something on the letter page.

It's funny to look back and see familiar names.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 17, 2016, 09:02:02 PM
Well Spade, we've actually got some interesting letter stuff going on in this edition.  Funny, that.

Yep, here is another iteration of Into the Bronze Age, featuring one of my favorite issues so far!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/09/17/into-the-bronze-age-august-1970-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: JKCarrier on September 18, 2016, 03:55:50 PM
Batman #224 was one of my first Batman comics. That creepy Moloch scared the bejesus out of me as a kid! I love the idea that Batman would drop everything and haul halfway across the country to solve Blind Buddy's murder, just because he's a fan. Irv Novick's art could be hit-or-miss, but he was really on his game this issue.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on September 18, 2016, 04:59:33 PM
Looks like it's Aqua-August for the Headblow Counter! :lol:

Great reviews as usual, Benton! That Super Sons story is really sad when you think about it. Wow. Just, wow.

And I think the fact that Batman is a Jazz fan is brought up again in the 90's/early 2000's at some point. It's the comic where he says he hates Rock n' Roll. Yaaay continuity! :P
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 18, 2016, 05:25:39 PM
^Batman Fortunate Son IIRC.
Punk is the rage of the beast,or something like that.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on September 18, 2016, 05:34:13 PM
Yeah! That was it! :lol:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 20, 2016, 10:56:24 PM
Thanks for the kind words and interest guys!  I've got another commentary up on the next two issues, including a return of Man-Bat!

https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/into-the-bronze-age-august-1970-part-3/

Batman #224 was one of my first Batman comics. That creepy Moloch scared the bejesus out of me as a kid! I love the idea that Batman would drop everything and haul halfway across the country to solve Blind Buddy's murder, just because he's a fan. Irv Novick's art could be hit-or-miss, but he was really on his game this issue.

How cool JKC!  Yeah, Moloch is a bit creepy, especially if you're used to the tamer fare in some of the other books. 

I suppose, if you've got the ability, why wouldn't you do something about someone murdering one of your idols?  Agreed about Novick. 

Looks like it's Aqua-August for the Headblow Counter! :lol:

Great reviews as usual, Benton! That Super Sons story is really sad when you think about it. Wow. Just, wow.

And I think the fact that Batman is a Jazz fan is brought up again in the 90's/early 2000's at some point. It's the comic where he says he hates Rock n' Roll. Yaaay continuity! :P

Hah, yeah, poor Super-Schlub just wants his Dad to be proud of him.  It'd be pretty darn sad if it weren't so goofy!

Hey, how cool!  I hadn't ever heard that.  That makes me like that touch better.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Tomato on September 20, 2016, 11:01:55 PM
If nothing else, there's a Batman miniseries titled "Batman:Jazz" that ran in 1995 and features Batman walking into a Jazz club in full Batman garb.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 20, 2016, 11:09:16 PM
Ha, crazy!  I never knew any of that.  Also, that sounds like a weird story from what I found about it.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Tomato on September 21, 2016, 01:24:40 AM
It is absolutely insane. It's part of a pair of music based Batman comics (Spyder mentioned the rock one before) which were both written/co-written by Gerard Jones... and they are BAAAD. The rock one (Batman:Fortunate Son) in particular is notorious for some truly awful dialogue ("Punk is nothing but death, crime, and the RAGE of the beast!") not to mention the absolutely asinine plot points that A. Bruce's parents criticized Rock and Roll the night they died, and B. That Batman, during the case, goes from knowing nothing about rock and roll to having learned every piece of information about Rock and Roll's entire history in the space of a few hours.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 21, 2016, 01:49:46 AM
It is absolutely insane. It's part of a pair of music based Batman comics (Spyder mentioned the rock one before) which were both written/co-written by Gerard Jones... and they are BAAAD. The rock one (Batman:Fortunate Son) in particular is notorious for some truly awful dialogue ("Punk is nothing but death, crime, and the RAGE of the beast!") not to mention the absolutely asinine plot points that A. Bruce's parents criticized Rock and Roll the night they died, and B. That Batman, during the case, goes from knowing nothing about rock and roll to having learned every piece of information about Rock and Roll's entire history in the space of a few hours.

Of course, he is The G.D. Batman.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 21, 2016, 02:44:51 AM
 :doh:

Wow...that's bad.  That's extremely bad.

Hey, by the way, what do y'all think about Aquaman's moral choice in this month's issue?  I'm curious how other folks view it.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on September 21, 2016, 03:25:05 AM
:doh:

Wow...that's bad.  That's extremely bad.

If you want to see just how bad they are, head over to Atop the Fourth Wall. It's an internet review show that covers (mostly) bad comics in hilarious fashion, and both of those Batman comics got their due. Here's a link to one of them if you're interested:

http://atopthefourthwall.com/batman-fortunate-son/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 21, 2016, 11:40:25 AM
Also,Supersons concept is once again active in the DCU.Funny how that worked out.
And speaking of Superman,IIRC we are just a few issues away from The Sandman Saga,introduction(rework) of Bronze Age Superman.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on September 21, 2016, 11:57:57 PM
Hey, by the way, what do y'all think about Aquaman's moral choice in this month's issue?  I'm curious how other folks view it.

I don't really know what the best call would have been. I guess there's a chance for her to escape, but the tech that those aliens have might make that nearly impossible (judging by the surprise they had when Aquaman actually broke out). Seems like she would have had a better chance of escaping the natives. But she'd still be hunted down, I'm sure.

If I had the choice, I'd say let me fight and at least have a shot at living freely than being enslaved for what I can only guess to be for the rest of my life.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 23, 2016, 04:25:33 AM
Well, time for another edition of Into the Bronze Age!  This week we've got two good stories, one of which really captured my imagination. 
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/09/22/into-the-bronze-age-august-1970-part-4/

Spade, the Super Sons made a return in modern DC?  Really?  That's...hard to believe.

Yep, the Sand Superman is part of the Kryptonite No More story, if I understand correctly, and I've heard that is a big improvement in the series.  I'm quite looking forward to it.  Ha, each time I read a terrible Superman comic, I look up how many more issues are left before I reach that one.  :P

Spyder, thanks for taking a crack at the question!  Yeah, I agree.  I suppose it's the fact that he doesn't give HER a choice, that he makes her choice for her, that is the most troublesome. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on September 23, 2016, 04:30:04 AM
Spade, the Super Sons made a return in modern DC?  Really?  That's...hard to believe.

Yup. Sort of, anyway. Turns out that Batman had an illegitimate child with Talia ages ago. Eventually, he found Brucey and became Robin. As for Supes Jr., he's the kid of Post Crisis/Pre Nu52 Superman who got transported over to the current continuity when the Nu52 Superman kicked the bucket. So what they're doing is putting Damion!Robin and Supes.Jr together and making them the actual canonical Supersons, for better or worse. The big difference is they're kids instead of young adults, but yeah, no; this is something that actually happened. Just let that sink in for a bit...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 23, 2016, 05:03:45 AM
Ohh, so it's Super Sons without the whimsy and charm and with 100% more fornication.  Yay!  :(
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 23, 2016, 05:44:40 AM
Its not so weird when you consider that the writers of today were kids during the Supersons years.
In theory Damien,was more like cloned.Being grown in a tank and all.Also,its been ten years since his introduction.Time sure flies.
And speaking of thing that will be referenced later,in about a year or so,there will be Snowbirds dont fly.You know,when Roy was a junkie and Oliver was a dumbass?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on September 23, 2016, 03:11:09 PM
And speaking of thing that will be referenced later,in about a year or so,there will be Snowbirds dont fly.You know,when Roy was a junkie and Oliver was a dumbass?

"MY WARD IS A JUNKIE!"
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 23, 2016, 03:24:43 PM
And speaking of thing that will be referenced later,in about a year or so,there will be Snowbirds dont fly.You know,when Roy was a junkie and Oliver was a dumbass?

"MY WARD IS A JUNKIE!"
Good thing (or bad,depending who you ask) is that it got retconed later.Now,Roy is a former alcoholic.
On a more positive note,also in about a year or so,DC got its first black superhero-John Stewart.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 28, 2016, 04:07:46 AM
Yeah...I'm really not looking forward to that one.  It's such a bad story and it pretty much ruined Speedy forever.

On a more positive note (sort of), the next edition of Into the Bronze Age is out!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/09/27/into-the-bronze-age-august-1970-part-5/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 28, 2016, 09:20:24 AM
Execution planet seems like an interesting idea.Only,its played pretty straight.So thats a missed opportunity.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 28, 2016, 08:42:36 PM
Yeah, that first one had a lot of neat concepts, and I was probably a little hard on it.  It was just such an incoherent mess, but the biggest factor in its poor score was Superman blithely causing several deaths. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 30, 2016, 06:07:01 PM
That and the time travel/space civilisation/Atlantis was a bit convoluted.There is material there for 3-4 issues.Was that ever revisited,actually?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 06, 2016, 10:23:06 PM
Good question Spade.  If I had to guess, I'd say no, as it is just such a throw-away idea, but I'm afraid I don't know enough about Superman to say.

Here's what I do know, today is another day of our journey Into the Bronze Age!  Here's the end of August 1970:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/10/06/into-the-bronze-age-august-1970-part-6/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: trebean on October 07, 2016, 12:47:23 PM
Ohh, so it's Super Sons without the whimsy and charm and with 100% more fornication.  Yay!  :(
The book itself looks pretty fun. Also, Damian has been in continuity for literal years, how is this the first time you've heard of him? I understand Jon since it wasn't until Superman Convergence did he technically first appeared.
(http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Super-Sons-1.jpg)

I've been really liking Jon since Superman Rebirth but let's just leave it at that. I don't wanna hijack this thread with current comics.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 07, 2016, 02:18:42 PM
Ohh, I've heard of him, Trebean, I just don't have much interest in the character and dislike his origin.

That cover does look like fun, though.  :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 10, 2016, 06:17:26 AM
Well gents, in an effort to bring a little brightness into our world today, here is another iteration of Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/11/10/into-the-bronze-age-september-1970-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on November 10, 2016, 06:44:52 AM
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/e/e8/Lians_Funeral.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/628?cb=20100617043000)
They go to funerals in costumes.Lounging around the house in costume makes perfect sense. :|
Wow,Superman really is a dick.
Keep up the good work,Benton.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 10, 2016, 05:20:02 PM
Thanks Spade!

Yeah, those issues could really fill an entire webpage of Super Dickery.

At least wearing a costume at a funeral for a superhero or the like makes a certain amount of sense (Hey, why is Bruce Wayne attending the funeral of the Flash?).  Swimming in your backyard pool in full costume...not so much.  :lol:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on November 10, 2016, 05:42:55 PM
Well,when Batman is most appropriatly dressed at a funeral,then you might have a problem.
Actually,I seem to recall one or two cases where they went in civilan clothes.Like when Linda Park died(she got better).
In this case,it was Lian Harpers(Roys daughter) funeral,so it is a bit odd that they showed up in full costumes.But compared to the rest of the story,that made perfect sense.
That aside,weddings arent any better.But seeing Batman in full gear just watching TV is pretty hilarious.And granted,the legacy angle is kinda touching.But its not "Whatever happened to the Man of Tommorow?".
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 02, 2016, 08:19:02 PM
Something I forgot to mention before;I understand its not possible to read EVERY DC series of the time,you should give House of Mystery a chance.
And its sister series House of Secrets is also worth a look.Btw,it introduces Swamp Thing in '71,so at least keep an eye out for that.:)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 06, 2016, 09:06:39 PM
Hah, yeah, I'm afraid that I'm already never going to finish my little project, Spade, and here you are trying to add more work!  ;)  Seriously though, I've heard wonderful things about both of those series, and I will probably end up reading some of them.  I'm sticking to the straight superhero stuff (for the most part) for the moment, though, as it's a logical division of material that makes it slightly manageable.  I will definitely be reading the Swamp Thing run, though.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 06, 2016, 09:34:06 PM
That,and a lot of it was covered by Superdickery,so you would be repeating some things. ;)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 07, 2016, 09:09:11 PM
Annnnd here's another Into the Bronze Age post, featuring a very solid Batman tale.  Thanks for reading!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/12/07/into-the-bronze-age-september-1970-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 08, 2016, 06:22:11 AM
So in theory-Batman walks in,buys a gun no-questions-asked,walks out with the gun.
Laws are pretty lax in the DC universe,obviously. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 08, 2016, 04:19:36 PM
Laws were pretty relaxed in the 1970s universe, too. No waiting periods, no background checks, no responsibility... I really wanted (and still do, for that matter) a 1896-model Mauser machine pistol... considering my step mother at that time, it is probably best that I didn't get one.

The part I liked was the nod to the Sherlock Holmes story "The Problem of Thor Bridge".
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 08, 2016, 04:45:20 PM
Okay,Im not an expert when it comes to gun control,but it just seems a bit odd somebody would sell a gun to a well known masked vigilante.
Well,it would take some 250 more issues till a crossver with Sherlock Holmes. :)
For those interested it was in Detective Comics #572 by Mike W Barr,Alan Davis and Paul Nearly.Those guys are cool.:)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 08, 2016, 06:44:15 PM
Well, it is a bit odd. While if my memory serves, it would have been easy for Bruce Wayne to buy a gun and walk out with it, what I can't imagine is that the gun dealer didn't call the newspaper as soon as "Batman" left.

The Sherlock Holmes crossover is one I still have (someplace), as well as the team ups with The Shadow (which were not as good).
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 08, 2016, 07:01:49 PM
Well, it is a bit odd. While if my memory serves, it would have been easy for Bruce Wayne to buy a gun and walk out with it, what I can't imagine is that the gun dealer didn't call the newspaper as soon as "Batman" left.

The Sherlock Holmes crossover is one I still have (someplace), as well as the team ups with The Shadow (which were not as good).
There was a crossover with the Shadow?And I thought crossovers with Judge Dredd and Grendel were weird.  :)
Two degrees of Batman,I guess.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 09, 2016, 12:21:09 AM
Ha, great discussion guys!  Yeah, at the least, you'd think the gun store owner would want the publicity of having Batman buy a gun in his store!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 09, 2016, 01:02:01 AM
Ha, great discussion guys!  Yeah, at the least, you'd think the gun store owner would want the publicity of having Batman buy a gun in his store!

Of course, if he had contacted the papers, Batman would have known something was up.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on December 09, 2016, 03:30:37 AM
Ha, great discussion guys!  Yeah, at the least, you'd think the gun store owner would want the publicity of having Batman buy a gun in his store!

Hm...

"I'm Batman, and I don't touch guns! Except when I do. Like in my very first issue. Man, that takes me back. I still remember when I used to fling superstitious and cowardly lots into vats of acid. Fun times..."
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 09, 2016, 06:54:56 AM
^Ah,the Golden Age,when Batman did kill people.Zach Snyder must have been a fan of the era.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 09, 2016, 04:04:21 PM
Did the Golden Age Superman kill, or did he just threaten it?

Snyder wanted to do The Dark Knight Returns and The Death of Superman, and didn't want to have to wait 60 years to do them. Same way John Millius wanted to do Tower of the Elephant, and Queen of the Black Coast, adding a little of A Witch Shall Be Born despite the events being separated by years in Conan's life (no matter whose chronology you use).

I wonder if Snyder is going to do The Nail for the Justice League movie...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 09, 2016, 04:38:44 PM
And its worth mentioning that despite Snyders own claims,Batman never kills anyone in DKR.He uses rubber bullets,and police never mentions murder in his list of crimes,so yeah,not even Frank Miller took it that far.He did shoot Darkseid on a separate occasion.  :rolleyes:

About Golden age Superman;Im not sure he killed anyone PERSONALLY,but he was okay with leaving criminals to die.And he did threatened people with death.Im really not an expert when it comes to those days.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Ouflah on December 09, 2016, 05:04:47 PM
Even the Punisher used to use rubber "mercy" bullets. It seems like eventually all rubber bullets get switched to real bullets because people need to die to make things "edgy."
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 09, 2016, 05:21:12 PM
^I think that was just the Spiderman TAS,and maybe just a few occasions in the comic.
And in his defense,when he debuted in '74,an anti-hero who actually KILLED criminals was a NEW thing.After the wacky 90's,not so much.
And Conway said he intended the character to be a villain,but he got REALLY popular,and the rest is history.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 09, 2016, 05:45:21 PM
^I think that was just the Spiderman TAS,and maybe just a few occasions in the comic.
And in his defense,when he debuted in '74,an anti-hero who actually KILLED criminals was a NEW thing.After the wacky 90's,not so much.
And Conway said he intended the character to be a villain,but he got REALLY popular,and the rest is history.

Yeah, The Executioner is still being published, too.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 09, 2016, 06:15:48 PM
Well,Foolkiller also debuted a month or two after the Punisher.He must have been really popular,if he earned a parody so soon.But not to sidetrack into Man-Things swamp too much.
Another thing about DKR,it wasnt really the first thing to make Batman serious,just kinda the most famous.Steve Englehart,Neal Adams and Danny O'neil laid the groundworks for todays Batman right around this time.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 09, 2016, 07:09:52 PM
"C'mere Joker."

"Oh no. Fight you when the anger is upon you? I might be insane, but I'm not crazy", or something like that.

Better than Batman landing between The Joker and The Punisher, turning to The Joker and saying "Run", but only just.

Batman's ears got longer, his cape billowed, his eyes slitted... actually, it strikes me that today's Batman is a parody of the O'Neil/Adams version.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Ouflah on December 09, 2016, 07:11:38 PM
^I think that was just the Spiderman TAS,and maybe just a few occasions in the comic.
I was pretty sure in his early appearances with Spider-Man and Daredevil he used rubber bullets.

Huh, maybe I'm remembering wrong. I didn't even watch any episodes with Punisher from TAS.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 09, 2016, 08:03:46 PM
@Daglob Different artists,different styles.I think Kelley Johns did it best. :)(http://www.abload.de/img/bloodstormhrcm.png)

@Outflah Im 100% certain about Spiderman TAS,but not so much about the early career.I could dig up Circle of Blood to check that out.Thou,that came out a decade or so later,and things were different then.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on December 09, 2016, 11:23:17 PM
@Daglob Different artists,different styles.I think Kelley Johns did it best. :)(http://www.abload.de/img/bloodstormhrcm.png)

@Outflah Im 100% certain about Spiderman TAS,but not so much about the early career.I could dig up Circle of Blood to check that out.Thou,that came out a decade or so later,and things were different then.

...What the hell is with his right knee? If that's even a knee. It looks like his frikking stomach. Did Batman start putting on the pounds or did he just take up Dick Grayson Age 12's high-carb rat diet?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on December 09, 2016, 11:34:22 PM
His knee looks like it has a face of its own. :blink:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Ouflah on December 10, 2016, 12:04:10 AM
As if his knee is the only problem with that picture.  :lol:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 10, 2016, 01:31:37 AM
I'm pretty sure that there are muscles on that figure that do not exist in nature...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Ouflah on December 10, 2016, 02:59:24 AM
It's like what would happen if Bane quadrupled his intake of steroids.

And got giant goosebumps.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 10, 2016, 05:49:18 AM
Ha!  Y'all are cracking me up.  Man, that thing is hideous.  Everything about that image is wrong.  Everything.  Apparently Batman has plates on his back like a stegosaurus. 

To shift the conversation from Batman to...well...more Batman, here's another edition of Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/12/09/into-the-bronze-age-september-1970-part-3/

And its worth mentioning that despite Snyders own claims,Batman never kills anyone in DKR.He uses rubber bullets,and police never mentions murder in his list of crimes,so yeah,not even Frank Miller took it that far.He did shoot Darkseid on a separate occasion.  :rolleyes:

About Golden age Superman;Im not sure he killed anyone PERSONALLY,but he was okay with leaving criminals to die.And he did threatened people with death.Im really not an expert when it comes to those days.

Yeah, my friends and I joked quite a bit about the fact that Snyder misunderstood his source material more profoundly and more widely than even my slowest, dimmest freshmen lit students could manage.  That's impressive.

Interestingly, Batman's grim and gritty Golden Age period really only lasted a short time, as Robin debuted somewhere around a year later, and the Dark Knight got a bit brighter pretty quickly after that.  He was still miles more serious than the Silver Age Batman, but he wasn't carrying a gun and killing people.  Even in his very earliest stories, I imagine you could count the times he actually used that gun (not counting monsters or what have you) on one hand.

Golden Age Superman didn't kill, per se, but he did things that would, realistically, kill a human being, like throw them into the atmosphere.  It's questionable whether these acts were meant to be cartoonish or serious, though.

Great conversation, guys!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 10, 2016, 07:00:58 AM
Batman and Black Canary?There is another fun Frank Miller tale...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 13, 2016, 09:08:38 PM
And here's another one!  Up next is a Green Arrow/Green Lantern issue.  Yay?
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/12/13/into-the-bronze-age-september-1970-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on December 13, 2016, 09:31:26 PM
And here's another one!  Up next is a Green Arrow/Green Lantern issue.  Yay?
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/12/13/into-the-bronze-age-september-1970-part-4/

Has Green Arrow declared that his WARD IS A JUNKIE! yet? Or is that one coming up?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on December 13, 2016, 09:39:30 PM
What!? HIS WARD IS A JUNKIE?!?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 13, 2016, 11:22:07 PM
Ha!  No, that little gem still awaits us.  The current issue is the one about Native Americans that, despite trying to be socially conscious, is full of dialog from a 60s western.  I'll probably write up that part of the post tonight, as I finished the story today.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 14, 2016, 07:29:29 AM
IDK,Flash had an interesting setup,but kind of a lazy resolution.
Unrelated,wasnt Haunted Tank revived in early '00?But in Iraq this time?There is another lazy reboot trope.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 15, 2016, 11:45:48 PM
Well, I agree to a point, Spade, but I enjoyed the mechanism of the resolution.  I saw it coming because of the Law of Conservation of Detail, (it was Chekhov's lipstick, after all), but I still found the idea charming.  I'd have preferred a stronger use be made of pretty much all of the story's elements, but nonetheless, I thought it worked.  Accusing Kanigher of lazy writing is usually a pretty safe bet, though.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 16, 2016, 07:26:39 AM
And now for Green Lantern/Green Arrow. :)
Did they accuse Hal of not doing anything for black people already?Thats my favorite part.
Ehem,no offense meant to anyone,but that was just bizarre.He saved Earth a few times,that should count. ;)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 16, 2016, 03:01:39 PM
Ha, yeah.  I covered that one here:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/into-the-bronze-age-april-1970-part-2/

My reaction was pretty much the same as yours.  What did Green Lantern do for you?  How about save your life, along with that of every other person on Earth.  It makes that scene rather ridiculous, despite the validity of the critique in general.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 16, 2016, 03:20:44 PM
Guys, guys, guys... given 'em some slack. They were trying to give Hal some personality instead of him being a misogynistic jerk all the time. ;)

Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on December 16, 2016, 03:22:22 PM
Ha, yeah.  I covered that one here:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/into-the-bronze-age-april-1970-part-2/

My reaction was pretty much the same as yours.  What did Green Lantern do for you?  How about save your life, along with that of every other person on Earth.  It makes that scene rather ridiculous, despite the validity of the critique in general.

The only thing that could make it worse is if someone came up to GL and told him, "Only there's skins you've never bothered with; the black skins! And the tan skins! And the red skins! And the pale skins! And the slightly brown but not too brown skins! And the kind of yellow but kind of white-ish skins! And the..."
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 16, 2016, 03:52:35 PM
A similar thing happens with Superman once.Only,Superman,not being braindead,responds its not about race,but about being the best person you can be.
TBF I get what they were trying to do.Present Oliver as chaotic to Hals lawful.But the execution sucks.
The same team later handled the same conflict better in Ring,Arrow and the Bat.Which dealt with the duos first meeting in not-Vietnam.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 18, 2016, 02:57:29 AM
Well gents, here is the next iteration of that very comic, along with a new Justice League tale!  Enjoy!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/12/17/into-the-bronze-age-september-1970-part-5/

Haha, yeah.  It's a really ridiculous thing to say to a guy who routinely saves the entire planet.  I'm reminded of seeing an acquaintance of mine take Mother Teresa to task after her death for having not done something he considered important.  I remember thinking, 'really?  And what have you done that gives you the right to judge Mother-freaking-Teresa?'  There's a scale to these things, after all.

Yes, I get what O'Neil was after, but I've already seen, in the very same year, some better attempts to address those concerns.  This book is just plain ridiculous.

Spade, I didn't know that.  I've never read that.  I'll have to check it out.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 18, 2016, 07:33:52 AM
Oliver is pretty much a prototype for Lisa Simpson.But thats not new.
Well,I cant find anything to say except: Others did it better.Which could be a catchphrase for this book.Seriously,how often does "journey INTO/across America" happen in comics?Preacher,Last American,Judge Dredd Cursed Earth(and a few more),Old Man Logan,Shade the Changing Man...
I imagine Doctor Fate operates on a different scale then JLA,and a different sense of morality,being almost a god.So it doesnt bother me that much.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on December 20, 2016, 03:57:15 PM
I imagine Doctor Fate operates on a different scale then JLA,and a different sense of morality,being almost a god.So it doesnt bother me that much.

Well, sort of. He is a card carrying member of the JSA after all. But at the same time, someone on his or the Spectre's level would probably still have a different and broader view of things anyway. Which makes you wonder why the both of them were ever on the team in the first place, considering that that they make the rest of the JSA look like tiny ants on a sidewalk. The only reason they joined the JSA is because Gardner Fox said so, because there's no good reason why they should have outside of maybe being reservists. At least Dr.Strange needed help when he formed the Defenders, but Dr.Fate doesn't even have that excuse. Hell, in The JSA Returns, (kickass late 90's throwback to the Golden Age JSA to promote the 90's JSA; it's really worth a look,) he and the Specter get taken out of the plot early on because otherwise, they'd probably save the day in 5 minutes with their combined abilities thanks to modern storytelling that would actually bother to take that into account. It's why the Spectre was the only character who's successors never joined the 90's JSA, or why the 90's JSA's Doctor Fate only participated in missions that actually required his abilities; because they're just too far above everyone else to do otherwise.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 20, 2016, 04:38:33 PM
Whatever it is, sometimes it's practically the most powerful thing in the universe. Sometimes it's little more than a bloke in white tights and a green hood...
John Constantine;Books of Magic
Even if his power really varies,having Wrath of God present would solve anything in a page or two,no argument there.  :cool:
I don't know all that much about Doctor Fate,so I cant really say.
Yeah,JSA was great.Pretty much the last good thing James Robinson did.And I really cant say enough about Ostranders Spectre.Its pretty much a must-read.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on December 20, 2016, 05:36:26 PM
Whatever it is, sometimes it's practically the most powerful thing in the universe. Sometimes it's little more than a bloke in white tights and a green hood...
John Constantine;Books of Magic
Even if his power really varies,having Wrath of God present would solve anything in a page or two,no argument there.  :cool:
I don't know all that much about Doctor Fate,so I cant really say.
Yeah,JSA was great.Pretty much the last good thing James Robinson did.And I really cant say enough about Ostranders Spectre.Its pretty much a must-read.

No, that would be one of the last good things Geoff Johns did. I love Robinson for Starman and The Golden Age, and you gotta' give him credit for getting the 90's JSA book off of the ground, but it's Johns that really made that series into what it is. It's like thanking Len Wein for Swamp Thing. Sure, he may have created the character, but it's Alan Moore that really turned the comic into the tour de force that it's known for, and he's the one who should (and rightfully does,) earn it's praises. Same with X-Men and Chris Claremont, or just about any given series you can think of. So while I should still thank Robinson for getting it off the ground, it's Johns who truly turned the comic into a series worth reading.

And yeah, I've been meaning to get around to Ostrander's Spectre one of these days. You'd think that after reading the hell out of his Suicide Squad, I'd have already devoured anything else he's done, but that just hasn't been the case. Maybe I'll take a look if I ever get around to doing another JSA/Golden Age Related readthrough. 90's JSA was and is kickass, but so is All Star Sqaudron, Infinity Inc, John's Hawkman, Robinson's Starman, etc. There's a ton of JSA/Golden Age related material that's just a blast to read, and maybe one of these days, I'll finally give them all the second read through they deserve, while also throwing other series I've neglected up until now like Ostrander's Spectre or Sandman Mystery Theater into the bargain. Hell, I'll probably do it next year. But in the meantime, I've still got plenty of other good stuff to finish off first. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 20, 2016, 06:07:29 PM
He still did something,so I give him credit there.But yes,It was Johns rest of the way.
Also,Hawkworld was pretty good.But dont think too hard about DC continuity there.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on December 21, 2016, 04:29:47 AM
So I decided to just check out Ostrander's Spectre now for the hell of it and MY GOD is this amazing. In just four issues, Ostrander's taken a character that I never really cared about that much before and only saw at best as a reoccuring supporting role outside of the original JSA and turned him into one of the most fascinating and compelling characters I've seen from DC. I also like the fact that he's still been at the crime-fighting game for 50 years in-universe by this point, rather than squeezing all of that into a sliding timescale. I know it's the same with the rest of the classic JSA'ers, but most of them didn't actually get their own modern series outside of Hawkman and Sandman, and the latter still took place in the 30's. It's a nice angle to work off of which only adds to the character and enhances him, as anyone might start to lose touch with both reality and themselves when they've been dealing out death and staring in the face of the worst elements of society for 50+ years. And the art's just fantastic to boot. It's a great series so far, and it's sure to get even better from here.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 21, 2016, 05:27:22 AM
Mandrake was the man for the job,when it comes to art there.The series was actually the strongest when it dealt with religion(Ostrander was a theology student),and you cant say that for a lot of comics.
Ofc,DC didnt really bother to collect Spectre.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 24, 2016, 06:18:21 AM
Lots of interesting things here that I'll comment on later, but for the moment, Merry Christmas from Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/into-the-bronze-age-september-1970-part-6/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 24, 2016, 03:33:12 PM
I don't really have a lot to comment this time  :unsure:
-A villain with a train theme makes sense.Or at least doesn't make any less sense then a villain with a dodo theme.
-So far,Sekowsky seems like a guy with good ideas,but he cant really get a plot going.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 24, 2016, 05:04:02 PM
Story I once read about Sekowsky:

Sekowsky was fast; really fast. He always got stuff in 'way ahead of the deadline, and then went on to his next job. An editor complained that his work was too rushed, so Sekowsky did his work for that editor the same as always, but waited until nearer the deadline to send it in. The editor complimented him on the increased quality of his work since he had slowed down.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on December 24, 2016, 05:22:45 PM
Regarding kryptonite: at some point in the Silver Age, it was said that Kal-El's rocket was shot into a space warp of some kind (those are moderately plentiful in SF; the most recent one I can think of is the wormhole in the vicinity of Deep Space 9), and that the solar system at the other end. Over the years, kryptonite meteors, of various colors, drifted into the warp/wormhole and ended up on Earth.

Since at other times Kal's rocket had an experimental warp drive, who knows if this is canon or has been Crisised/Zero Houred/52ed/Rebirthed out of existence.

At another time, it was also implied that Krypton was something like 30 light years away.

...and lest we forget: "100 Years... Lost, Stolen, or Strayed", and "The Super-Brat From Krypton". That little trip to earth was quite eventful.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 27, 2016, 04:41:55 PM
Well gents, here is a new, post Christmas entry of Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/12/26/into-the-bronze-age-october-1970-part-1/

Good points about Dr. Fate and the Spectre.  They really don't fit in with the JSA as regular members.  That's actually why I didn't include them in my JSA campaign in the DCUG.  I think they work much better as background figures, moving in their own worlds and only occasionally intervening in that of the JSA. 

I don't really have a lot to comment this time  :unsure:
-A villain with a train theme makes sense.Or at least doesn't make any less sense then a villain with a dodo theme.
-So far,Sekowsky seems like a guy with good ideas,but he cant really get a plot going.

Ha, yeah, the train theme is really not much worse than many another, I suppose.  As for Sekowsky, he certainly is an imaginative guy, but he can't seem to catch a break.  Unlike with Jason Quest, this is actually a shame with Starker.

Story I once read about Sekowsky:

Sekowsky was fast; really fast. He always got stuff in 'way ahead of the deadline, and then went on to his next job. An editor complained that his work was too rushed, so Sekowsky did his work for that editor the same as always, but waited until nearer the deadline to send it in. The editor complimented him on the increased quality of his work since he had slowed down.

Ha!  That's hilarious, and it sounds about right.

Regarding kryptonite: at some point in the Silver Age, it was said that Kal-El's rocket was shot into a space warp of some kind (those are moderately plentiful in SF; the most recent one I can think of is the wormhole in the vicinity of Deep Space 9), and that the solar system at the other end. Over the years, kryptonite meteors, of various colors, drifted into the warp/wormhole and ended up on Earth.

Since at other times Kal's rocket had an experimental warp drive, who knows if this is canon or has been Crisised/Zero Houred/52ed/Rebirthed out of existence.

At another time, it was also implied that Krypton was something like 30 light years away.

...and lest we forget: "100 Years... Lost, Stolen, or Strayed", and "The Super-Brat From Krypton". That little trip to earth was quite eventful.

That's very interesting, DG!  I knew something about that, but I wasn't aware that it had been established that clearly.  It would have been better if they had acknowledged such mechanics in this story, even if only slightly.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 27, 2016, 05:07:22 PM
As mentioned before,Superman does have a son now,so wish granted?Its not really the SAME Superman,but it counts.
People complain that superheroes dont do enough,then they complain when they take over.No pleasing them.
Even todays industry seems to have moved away from the theme of proactive heroes.So thats a theme done to death.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 28, 2016, 08:16:17 PM
And another one!  I'm trying to get some of these written while I have the time. :D
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2016/12/28/into-the-bronze-age-october-1970-part-2/

Ha, I don't know, Spade, does a different Superman count?

Well, there is definitely no pleasing everyone.  There have actually been some pretty good stories written about that too.

I'd say the mainstream books have moved away from the proactive heroes, but it continues to be a productive theme.  Plenty of independent books still explore it.  What would the world be like of there were superpowered beings that could exert their will?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on December 29, 2016, 12:28:27 AM
Good points about Dr. Fate and the Spectre.  They really don't fit in with the JSA as regular members.  That's actually why I didn't include them in my JSA campaign in the DCUG.  I think they work much better as background figures, moving in their own worlds and only occasionally intervening in that of the JSA.

Maybe, but I've been reading Ostrander's Spectre lately, and he actually makes for a convincing case for Specter being a card-carrying member of the JSA, at least in the early days. In Ostrander's run, it was implied that the reason the Spectre hung around with the JSA for so long despite being way above everyone else's paygrade was that spending time with other humans and fellow Mystery Men helped him to reconnect to his humanity; to help himself feel human and alive despite no longer being either. But a night out with Hawkman and Hawkgirl put a damper on that, as he came to the conclusion that he was no longer truly alive or human where it mattered and didn't deserve to be with those who were, especially the world's greatest heroes. He decided it was time to stop fooling himself, and only truly started to reconnect with his humanity again decades down the line. (Just in time for the Ostrander run in fact. ;)) So while you could argue that he doesn't have much of a place with the team, I also think that he does sort sort of work (at least within those first several years or so,) with that context in mind.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 29, 2016, 05:13:50 AM
@Benton Miracleman: Olympus answered it best,probably.
Im having trouble remembering anything with the proactive theme in recent times.Usualy,by proactive they mean ripping off Authority.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 07, 2017, 07:57:05 PM
Howdy folks, here is another Into the Bronze Age post!

https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/into-the-bronze-age-october-1970-part-3/

Spade, I suppose the famous example is the Squadron Supreme Maxi-series. 

Interesting, Kk.  I've never read those stories, though I've heard great things about them.  They're in that gray area for me, where I don't read much, having focused on what came before.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 08, 2017, 06:11:51 AM
Spade, I suppose the famous example is the Squadron Supreme Maxi-series.
They are not all that similar,even if they are from roughly the same time.I would recommend you hunt down Miracleman now that its back in print(Hey,Marvel did something good),but I doubt you would like it,no offense.I get the feeling you dont like Alan Moore.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 11, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
I don't dislike Alan Moore, but I often find his work not to my taste.  He's brilliant, but brilliance is only part of the equation for good stories.

Here we go with another Bronze Age post:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/01/11/into-the-bronze-age-october-1970-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on January 11, 2017, 08:22:09 PM
I don't dislike Alan Moore, but I often find his work not to my taste.  He's brilliant, but brilliance is only part of the equation for good stories.

Here we go with another Bronze Age post:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/01/11/into-the-bronze-age-october-1970-part-4/

You ever read his Supreme? Because that might be more up your alley. It's basically Silver Age Superman done right.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 11, 2017, 08:34:25 PM
Im sure I mentioned it before,there is also his Tom Strong,a great pulp style series.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 11, 2017, 09:21:25 PM
I haven't read Supreme, but I have actually read Tom Strong.  I own most if not all of that series.  I quite like it, though there are touches that I don't care for (his contempt for conventional sexual morality).  Nonetheless, he did a wonderful job creating a fascinating setting out of an excellent distillation of pulp tropes.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on January 12, 2017, 02:15:39 AM
I haven't read Supreme

SHAME. :angry:

(JK.:P)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 12, 2017, 06:36:45 AM
The true masterpiece of "the original writer" DR an Quinch.Those who havent should read that.Like right now. :)
I cant really remember anything terribly sexual in Tom Strong.I could name some weird examples from Moores other works thou.
On the actual topic;the whole trial thing felt really contrived and it does come out of nowhere,But Oliver didnt compare anyone to Hitler for a whole issue,so there is that.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 12, 2017, 06:11:34 PM
Ha!  Right, an issue without Godwin's Law being invoked is a good issue.  The trial makes sense, in general concept, with the Guardian beginning to act 'irrationally.'  It makes sense that the other Guardians would be concerned.  It doesn't make sense that they'd farm it out to some planet we've never heard of.

Tom Strong didn't have much that gave me pause, but there are a few moments, entirely commonplace and all too familiar, that simply indicated a disdain for conventional sexual morality.  Such moments are nothing compared to his excesses in other stories, and they are the types of things that most modern writers would do, so it wasn't anything particular to his work, just something that hurt my enjoyment of the series.  In reading actual pulp stories, for the most part they're more moral.  It's just a shame that to get modern sophistication and complexity, we also tend to get a modern lack of values. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 12, 2017, 06:20:42 PM
And I thought you 70's people were chill about that sort of thing.You had the whole underground comix scene.  :huh:
Okay,jokes aside,I guess I can understand why you see it that way.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 12, 2017, 06:28:05 PM
Haha, nope, I'm actually a child of the 80s.  I just like Bronze Age comics.  ^_^
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 14, 2017, 04:19:15 AM
I guess I'm just a fellow with old fashioned principles, Spade my friend.

Anyway, it's time for the moment I've been waiting for, the beginning of the Fourth World!  Here is another edition of Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/into-the-bronze-age-october-1970-part-5/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 14, 2017, 07:13:30 AM
Seems like Superman and Lois married somebody every 2 months.Here is a classy explanation from Mort Weisinger why that doesnt count.In 1961,probably to a 10 year old.
(http://cbr3.imgix.net/wp-content/uploads/goodcomics/2010/05/consummate.jpg?auto=format&lossless=1&q=90&w=320&h=199&fit=crop)
On the current topic,Kirby has an okay start,I guess.And why does Lois even leave her house at this point? :p
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on January 14, 2017, 03:20:16 PM
"...neither one of these marriages was ever consummated."

That we know of! :P
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 14, 2017, 03:28:20 PM
But its nice to see that fans were obsessed about continuity even back then. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on January 14, 2017, 03:45:02 PM
Fans; fans never change :P
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 14, 2017, 03:50:27 PM
Fans; fans never change :P
For some reason,I read that in Ron Perlmans voice.  :cool:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2017, 11:51:46 PM
Haha, that's great, Spade, thanks for sharing it! 

Well gents, here is the end of October (in January, I'm just a TAD behind), and a new Into the Bronze Age post!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/01/15/into-the-bronze-age-october-1970-part-6/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 16, 2017, 06:08:50 AM
So he could have built a bigger rocket,we got that answer.:|
In a then/now comparison,current Titans have a pretty similar lineup to these Teen Titans.Minus Hawk and Dowe.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 19, 2017, 08:19:29 PM
Haha, I wouldn't cite that one as precedent, Spade! 

Interesting, but I haven't heard much encouraging about the modern Titans.

Well folks, here is the beginning of a new month of posts.  Welcome to November 1970!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/01/19/into-the-bronze-age-november-1970-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 19, 2017, 08:28:52 PM
Man, you're zipping right along. Can't wait 'til April/May 1971 and the dreaded Nixon/Agnew issue of GL/GA?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 19, 2017, 08:50:10 PM
Ha, I'm trying to get into a routine where I'm writing one commentary a day, and I still feel like I'm crawling.  The scope of this little undertaking has become rather daunting.  :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 19, 2017, 09:18:34 PM
Well, don't get burnt out on them. Make it fun. Imagine an issue is a movie, and you are one of two robots or guy watching it.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 19, 2017, 09:26:44 PM
Haha, I've always been partial to Crow.   :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on January 20, 2017, 02:28:15 AM
I've always been more of a Tom Servo fan, myself :P

Though CamBot does need more recognition.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 20, 2017, 03:10:34 AM
^The unsung hero of the SoL!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 22, 2017, 11:28:24 PM
Gents, I give you the most glorious Into the Bronze Age post yet.  Come and meet the greatest character of all time!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/01/22/into-the-bronze-age-november-1970-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 23, 2017, 12:37:11 AM
Darn. I though you were talking about Herbie Popnecker.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 23, 2017, 07:02:49 AM
Later on,Ten-Eyed Man was killed in Crisis on Infinite Earths;that was a specific request by Marv Wolfman.After that he showed up in Animal Man,with other characters deleted from continuity.
And later again,we got the Ten-eyed Men,a nomadic desert tribe who wore blindfolds and tattooed eyes on their fingers.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 23, 2017, 03:36:22 PM
Actually, the idea is kind of interesting, just the execution was lacking (sense... oops, that could be considered a pun). I remember this, him sitting in a plane looking both ways with his hands. It did look silly. Somehow, the whole impossibility of being able to switch nerves around and have it work turned me off. Now, if he had gone to a handy mysterious lost monastery someplace exotic like The Himalayas, then spent years learning to "see" with his fingers... that would actually be more believable despite it being more fantastic.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 23, 2017, 03:43:57 PM
I imagine that was Morrisons idea with the Ten-Eyed Men tribe.Also,they fought demons.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 26, 2017, 05:30:25 PM
Haha, though it might have some practical uses, the weaknesses of having eyes in your fingers seem to overwhelm those rather distinctly.  And it just looks so colossally stupid! 

Leave it to Morrison to try and make gold out of that base metal.

But today I have something for you that is gold all by itself, though not yet refined.  Here is another edition of Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/01/26/into-the-bronze-age-november-1970-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 28, 2017, 05:25:54 PM
Well,the famous bare chested duel is only a few issues away. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 01, 2017, 05:23:56 PM
Yep Spade, we're getting close!

I have a new one for y'all today, and it is a doozy!  This post features my first ever 5 out of 5, and you won't believe which comic earns it!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/01/into-the-bronze-age-november-1970-part-3-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 01, 2017, 06:28:21 PM
3 issues by Robert Kanigher at once.A new record. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 01, 2017, 07:09:51 PM
Werner Roth drew the X-Men forever (at least it seemed like it). He's one of many good artists, from Golden, Silver, or any age, forgotten because his name isn't Jack Kirby, not that Jolly Jack doesn't deserve his acclaim. I don't think Roth was ever really comfortable with super heroes.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 01, 2017, 10:02:13 PM
Spade, and it was a surprisingly pleasant experience!

Neat!  Thanks DG, I didn't realize that.  I've probably read those issues, but I didn't recognize the name.  I can sort of imagine what you mean about his not being comfortable with superheroes.  The action beats, especially with Superman, in that story are the weakest points.

Can I pick my FR readers' brains for a moment?  What do y'all think about the current format?  Is the treatment of 2-3 issues at a time good, or would y'all prefer more in one go?  Any other critiques y'all can think of?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on February 02, 2017, 03:25:36 AM
Spade, and it was a surprisingly pleasant experience!

Neat!  Thanks DG, I didn't realize that.  I've probably read those issues, but I didn't recognize the name.  I can sort of imagine what you mean about his not being comfortable with superheroes.  The action beats, especially with Superman, in that story are the weakest points.

Can I pick my FR readers' brains for a moment?  What do y'all think about the current format?  Is the treatment of 2-3 issues at a time good, or would y'all prefer more in one go?  Any other critiques y'all can think of?

Honestly, 2-3 issues is just perfect. I'm been perusing the early entries again, and those longer articles are just way too long for my tastes.  2-3 issues is just right.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on February 02, 2017, 03:53:04 AM
I'm with kkhohoho on this one.

I love reading your entries, but only having a few hours of free time a day makes it hard to read a bunch of these, especially since they're so detailed (which I love!).

I would prefer quality over quantity, myself.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 02, 2017, 04:41:15 AM
Me too. Keep it this way.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 02, 2017, 04:50:20 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys; that's really helpful!

Personally, I like being able to publish something every few days rather than every few weeks, so this works just fine for me.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 04, 2017, 05:29:10 PM
Speaking of which, here we go, gents, the final Into the Bronze Age entry for November 1970!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/04/into-the-bronze-age-november-1970-part-5/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 04, 2017, 06:47:04 PM
I might have mentioned it the last time,but Super-Lex is thing these days.Really.
Honestly,both stories were a bit goofy.But WF makes more sense,so points there.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 08, 2017, 04:54:34 AM
I was probably a tad generous with the WF story.  It probably only deserved a 4, and perhaps I'll review that.  At any rate, there was a big difference in the type of goofiness at work in both.  The WF story had the kind of big-idea madness that works in a superhero setting, while the former just felt messy and contrived, its goofy ideas not fitting together into a goofy but fun whole.

Speaking of goofy, I've got a fair amount of silliness in my latest Into the Bronze Age post!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/07/into-the-bronze-age-december-1970-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 10, 2017, 05:01:49 PM
Howdy folks, I've got another edition of Into the Bronze Age for thems-as-interested.  ;)
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/10/into-the-bronze-age-december-1970-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 10, 2017, 06:40:49 PM
You think Aquaman is a High Noon or Rio Bravo type of person?
About the licence plate trick,if it works for Jason Statham...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 10, 2017, 07:38:36 PM
Seems like I remember a discussion in the letter column as to how Aquaman was a western under the sea... It's so obvious, other than the shoot out with Thanatos. Jack Kirby did the same thing with Ant Man in the early days.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 10, 2017, 08:04:40 PM
Spade, ohh, if he's anything like me, I think he'd be a big fan of the Rio Bravo remake, El Dorado.  I have to think he's a fan of the Duke.  ;)

Interesting DG!  I could see that, especially in the stories where Aquaman is living a semi-nomadic life, drifting from one adventure to another.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 10, 2017, 08:18:15 PM
Well,Im sure movie nights at the Watchtower are pretty interesting.
Now,Batman is a High Noon person.Or not,depending how you look at things.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 10, 2017, 08:35:39 PM
Man, I would read a story with that premise.  In fact, I'm making a note right now for a base scene whenever I get back to the DCUG....

Anyway, you're totally right.  Batman would definitely be a High Noon guy.  That's very much him.  It's that, or The Searchers.  I see Hal and/or Ollie as being fans of McLintock.  Superman would definitely be a fan of The Quiet Man.  Hmm...Martian Manhunter, perhaps The Magnificent Seven, and the Flash.....maybe The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?  I haven't a clue about WW.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 10, 2017, 09:07:22 PM
Rio Bravo, Rio Lobo, El Dorado; it's all the same...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 10, 2017, 09:38:26 PM
Pretty much.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 11, 2017, 06:50:21 AM
I think Olliver would go for High Plains Drifter.Or maybe the Shootist.
Some may also remember Outlands,which was High Noon in space.And surprisingly good for that kinda rework.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 11, 2017, 03:06:43 PM
Hmm, interesting, Spade!  I could see Ollie being into those.

I could see Hal definitely being a fan of Outland.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 15, 2017, 03:49:13 PM
Well, I've got another post for y'all, this one featuring some interesting historical connections:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/into-the-bronze-age-december-1970-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 15, 2017, 06:46:19 PM
Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible as published in the late '60e, early '70s, and there was quite a bit of interest in Satanism at the time. Satanists were likely suspects in movies and TV shows quite often.

I found a copy of Levey's book at the used book store at some point. I had a paperback copy of The Necronomicon that made more sense. Sadly, the Necronomicon is long gone...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 15, 2017, 07:45:06 PM
Wow, that's fascinating, DG!  I was vaguely aware of LaVey and his nonsense, but I didn't make the connection to his publication of that book.  Interestingly, there was also a documentary that aired in 1970 on him and his 'philosophy.'  I'll add an addendum to the post.  Thanks for letting me know, man!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 16, 2017, 05:56:01 AM
And these days satanism is an officialy recognized religion in the US. #Diversity
And btw,I kinda assumed Batman was an atheist.I guess its a different Batman,once again.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 16, 2017, 12:12:07 PM
A kinder, gentler, Batman...

Not surprising for the time.  To have a super hero express anything but a Judaeo-Christian outlook would have probably been considered against the Comic's Code. Parents would have gone anthropoid excrement.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 16, 2017, 02:55:03 PM
Yeah Spade, and 'Jedi' is recognized in England.  I'm not entirely sure what that says about us.

DG is right, you really probably couldn't take a radically skeptical position with a hero.  Yet, I seem to remember some creators talking about Batman being a lapsed Roman Catholic, and that seems rather fitting to me, a man who lost his faith, but still has sympathies with it and secretly looks for a reason to believe, something like Matthew Arnold.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 16, 2017, 04:30:11 PM
Yes,it is recognized;one guy once sued the police for discrimination because they wouldnt let him wear the cloak in public(or something like that).And won,ofc.Well,still makes more sense then scientology,I guess.
What I mostly remember is one story from the early 2000's where Batman claims he doesnt belive in the afterlife.Then teams up with Deadman.And is still left wondering.This is all ignoring the fact he has visited hell and knows an actual angel by that point. :|
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 16, 2017, 05:41:13 PM
Batman has teamed up with Deadman several times over the years (although those have probably been retconned out of existence). He has also met The Specter who is basically an avenging angel. Or The Spirit of Justice or The Right Hand of God or something.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 16, 2017, 05:46:46 PM
Batman has teamed up with Deadman several times over the years (although those have probably been retconned out of existence). He has also met The Specter who is basically an avenging angel. Or The Spirit of Justice or The Right Hand of God or something.
And lives in the same town(and knows) Etrigan.And like I said,knows Zauriel.Hey,there is another character we haven't see since a few reboots ago.But then again,I guess having an angel as a member of the JLA would fly today.Pun intended.
Okay,he was in Forever Evil.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 16, 2017, 07:39:49 PM
Haha, good points, both of you.  There's really no justification for a position of radical skepticism in the DCU, at least as a member of the League.  If you had contact with the Specter, Deadman, or any of a number of characters, then being an atheist would just be silly.  Heck, associating with the Specter provides an implicit conformation of the basics of Judaeo-Christian, or at the least, Judaeo-Christian/Islamic mythology.

Zauriel, he was an interesting character, and part of some good stories.  While I'd always prefer to have Hawkman, he was a good addition to the League for a time and arguably fit in better in that version than his pinioned-predecessor would have.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on February 17, 2017, 04:14:04 AM
Yeah Spade, and 'Jedi' is recognized in England.  I'm not entirely sure what that says about us.

Another trivial fact (I read this in a paper years ago): In Russia, you can legally claim to be a Martian on their census.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 17, 2017, 06:55:40 AM
I think that in every country there are pranksters who claim to be Vulcans on the census.They probably feel very stupid once they get IDs. :)
Funny you should mention that,Benton.In Ostranders Spectre,him(well,them) dealing with different systems of belief is a plot point.
On the other hand,they havent done much with Hawkman either.I think there was Death of Hawkman recently,and he was in JLUnited,but less said about that,the better.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 17, 2017, 04:33:47 PM
Haha, that kind of stuff has to drive census bureau folks nuts.

Spade, I could see that being turned into material for good stories.  You could work around the restrictions imposed by the existence of these characters, but it would require some narrative gymnastics.

Well, poor Hawkman...one of the many characters that I hoped would benefit from the New 52 relaunch.  Unfortunately, the version they created was completely uninteresting for me.  I would have loved to see a fun, adventurous Atom/Hawkman book.  Heck, I still wish that brief glimpse we got of the Silver Age Hawks in that big event a while back had gone on to be something bigger.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 17, 2017, 05:28:23 PM
CoughLiefeldCough...
There was also Hawkworld by Ostrander,great series,but due to continuity problems it created,DC kinda buried it.
To get back on topic,Im not sure if that's important,but Rose/Thorn later showed up in Birds of Prey.
I think I mentioned all of this before,anyway. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 17, 2017, 05:29:41 PM
Hey, what do you know about that?  I've got another post to share!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/17/into-the-bronze-age-december-1970-part-4/

Yeah Spade, that had a LOT to do with it.

I've heard good things about Hawkworld, and I love Ostrander...but I love the classic Hawks so much, I hesitate to pick it up.

Neat, I didn't know that.  Thanks, Spade.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 17, 2017, 05:56:50 PM
Well,Tannarak ended up appearing a few more times in the more magically oriented book.Like Books of Magic.
I cant really remember anything else from today's batch that made it to more modern times.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 17, 2017, 07:03:10 PM
Neat!  I had no idea he would become an ongoing character, Spade.  Thanks, that's really interesting.  I did a little looking just now, and I see that he's actually destined to come back in this very run of Phantom Stranger.  That's great, because he does have some nice potential as a villain.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 21, 2017, 03:38:34 AM
And this officially puts an end to 1970!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/20/into-the-bronze-age-december-1970-part-5/

Check out my final thoughts on the year and December itself. Thanks for reading and commenting guys!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 21, 2017, 05:15:45 AM
In most of the panels in Kirby's 4th World stories, Al Plastino re-drew Superman and Clark Kent's face(es) or at times the whole figure (at least it looked like it to me).
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on February 21, 2017, 05:44:08 AM
Correction: End of 1970 DC comics. :-P
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 21, 2017, 06:20:13 AM
Well,like I mentioned before,Superman will be rebooted in January of 1971.So you got that to look forward to.
Benton,a few unrelated thing:
-Maybe I missed it;but is there an index page on the blog?It might be helpful to see everything reviewed so far in one place.
-Out of curiosity;what will be the ending point of the blog?Crisis on infinite Earths?DKR?Watchmen?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Ouflah on February 21, 2017, 04:41:00 PM
From looking at the pics of that Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson, it looks as if someone other than Kirby drew the faces for Superman and Jimmy Olson.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on February 21, 2017, 05:24:19 PM
From looking at the pics of that Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson, it looks as if someone other than Kirby drew the faces for Superman and Jimmy Olson.

That they did. I forget just who was the Editor in Chief at the time, but whoever it was didn't want Kirby ruining Jimmy and Supes' good looks, because let's face it; when it comes to faces, Kirby ain't pretty. Basically, they thought that two of their most renowned characters of all time looking like cavemen wouldn't sit well with the kiddies and might damage sales, and while it probably wouldn't have been that big of a deal and even seems kind of silly nowadays, for DC back then, it does sort of make sense. Doom Patrol aside, this was their real foray into Marvel-esque territory, and they were only willing to go so far. So to them, redrawing Jimmy and Supes' faces wasn't sheer stupidity; it was a sound business decision more than anything else.

Mind you, it was sheer stupidity, but what can you do? ;)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 21, 2017, 05:48:28 PM
Ahh!  Now that y'all mention it, I actually do remember having read that!  Thanks for the reminder folks, and good points, Kk.  I've added an addendum to that post with a note about the issue.  Man, that's a crying shame.  I don't think I really appreciated what had been done when I read about that years ago.  I think I get it a bit more now.  Sheesh.

Haha, too grandiose, DJ?

Spade, I'm looking forward to that Superman story.  It's effects are already being felt in Action Comics, apparently. 
-There is currently no index page.  I'm not entirely sure how I'd format such a thing to make it easily updatable and clear.  I'm not adverse to the idea if y'all think it would be useful.  Any suggestions?
-I haven't decided on a precise endpoint, just a year, 1985.  I suppose that Crisis on Infinite Earths is the logical endpoint.  If I can keep this up until then, I might even read and evaluate that event in light of the age that it ends.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 21, 2017, 06:04:22 PM
Over in the Fantastic Four Wally Wood may have drawn but at the very least inked the Daredevil figures in FF #39. The worst thing is the appearance of Spider-Man in the FF wedding annual: he is a cut out of a Ditko illustration.

As I said, Al Plastino was credited with drawing the faces of Supes and Jimmy (I had forgotten about that). I believe it was mentioned in a later letter page when someone noticed the difference in styles. I'm not sure how long it lasted, but I think that eventually Jack did all the art (when Mike Royer was dong most of the inks). My copies of those comics have been gone for decades. As kkhohoho points out, it was silly, and if memory serves, the explanation was something like they didn't want there to be a sudden shift from the DC house style to the dynamic world of The King all at once. Or something like that.

Considering all the styles of all the artists at DC, you would have thought that by the time these books appeared anyone with black hair and a spit  curl wearing a red yellow and blue suit with an "S" on the front would be assumed to be Superman.

Perhaps they just didn't want him looking like Reed Richards, or had a thing against chin squiggles...

And just think: soon we'll have the Don Rickels episode.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 21, 2017, 06:09:40 PM
Yeah, I remember the Daredevil and Spidey episodes. 

Urg...I'm really dreading the Don Rickles issues.  Those did NOT age well, assuming they were ever less goofy than they are now.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Ouflah on February 21, 2017, 06:19:28 PM
EDIT: Whoops, at first I didn't see that you mentioned who drew the faces, DG!

Take a look at this comparison pic I found:
(http://www.newsfromme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kirbysuperman01.jpg)

And here's another interesting one:
(http://www.newsfromme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kirbysketcha.gif)


It looks as if Kirby's Superman logo had some similarities to the "kingdom come" logo that was used decades later..
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 21, 2017, 11:29:14 PM
Hmmm... those look like Murphy Anderson inks (look at the feathering on Supes' stomach). Like Joe Sinnot and Tom Palmer, Anderson's inks on anybody is fantastic.

Yes, that "S" emblem is very interesting.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 22, 2017, 12:48:47 AM
I actually linked to Mark Evanier's page in my new postscript, which used those exact images as examples.  He said that Supes' symbol is the only thing that he could draw better than Kirby.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 22, 2017, 02:49:57 PM
I actually linked to Mark Evanier's page in my new postscript, which used those exact images as examples.  He said that Supes' symbol is the only thing that he could draw better than Kirby.

Re: Evanier's article...

Those idiots turned down a chance for us to see Jack Kirby/Wally Wood art?

The fiends!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 23, 2017, 08:39:07 PM
I know!  That's proof that terrible decisions aren't just made by modern day comic companies.

But, on a more cheerful note, I come bearing 1971 comics!  Check out the newest edition of Into the Bronze Age here!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/23/into-the-bronze-age-january-1971-part-1/

I've also made some slight improvements to format that should improve the aesthetics and readability of the feature.  I'm slowly updating past posts.  I hope y'all will let me know if you like/don't like it.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 23, 2017, 09:46:39 PM
Yeah,our 90's sucked.And Im not just talking about pop culture.Worst.Decade.Ever.
Anyhow,I could say the 2 Clarks situation is similar to current AC storyline,but that might be streching it.And there is the eternal question "Does Superman age?"
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 25, 2017, 06:34:09 PM
Haha, the 90s was a weird decade, a very weird decade. 

Yeah, the 'Superman aging' question is an interesting one.  If he had lost his powers, I suppose he'd lose whatever stopped him from aging.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 25, 2017, 07:39:50 PM
I barely remember that Superman story. I agree that Clark Kent could have kept on working at The Planet, and might have been Editor in Chief ("Don't call me 'chief'!") by now. I know today it is Clark who dresses up as Superman, while Batman disguises himself as Bruce Wayne, but that wasn't touched upon much in those days as I remember. This is one of many stories with so may plot holes that it makes it almost impossible to enjoy after the age of about 11. It also ignore the likelihood that Superman's  friends (like the whole JLA) would have helped him out, all for the sake of "story". Seems like there is an overall reason for Superman being in the situation he finds himself in, but it has been too long since I read it. The whole defeatist attitude is at odds with the Superman we are usually presented with. What about his adventures on Lexor?

The best stories are about SuperMAN.

The Silver Age Luthor had a sister named Lena (LL again). His family moved away from Smallville to escape the humiliation of having a criminal for a son, and changed their name to Thorul. The sister, as I remember, gained mental powers from an alien critter in a sequence that I'm sure was the basis for a Superboy TV series plot involving Lex's girlfriend. Given that Lex is Superman's age, and I'm guessing that his niece (No L in her first name? How strange...) is Supergirl's age (Superman's age minus about 10), Lena would have had to become a mother soon after leaving town. Of course, this was all made up anyhow, and I'm sure it has been retconned out of existence. I don't remember reading the Supergirl series here; Mike Sekowsky had done better art, and this just leaves me cold.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 26, 2017, 12:33:00 AM
I barely remember that Superman story. I agree that Clark Kent could have kept on working at The Planet, and might have been Editor in Chief ("Don't call me 'chief'!") by now. I know today it is Clark who dresses up as Superman, while Batman disguises himself as Bruce Wayne, but that wasn't touched upon much in those days as I remember. This is one of many stories with so may plot holes that it makes it almost impossible to enjoy after the age of about 11. It also ignore the likelihood that Superman's  friends (like the whole JLA) would have helped him out, all for the sake of "story". Seems like there is an overall reason for Superman being in the situation he finds himself in, but it has been too long since I read it. The whole defeatist attitude is at odds with the Superman we are usually presented with. What about his adventures on Lexor?

The best stories are about SuperMAN.

Yeah, the setup just didn't fit with the character or the setting.  I know Dorfman had limited space to work with, but he should have given us something more if he wanted to make it work.

I realize that the portrayal of Superman that is near and dear to my heart creates expectations that are, to a degree, anachronistic.  Nonetheless, that is the only portrayal of the Superman/Clark dynamic that actually makes sense with his Silver Age origins.  Clark was raised on Earth from a very tender age until the rolling present, raised as Clark Kent, not as Superman.  Clark's importance and centrality to his identity is inherent in the concept.  You can't have the grounded, essentially American origins and have the perfect flying sun god with no humanity.  They're mutually exclusive.  I'm curious if Superboy will feature any better insight into the character when I start reading it this month.

Lexor, ha, I've never read any of those stories, but I just read about the adventures on the DC database.  What a great concept!

Very well said there.  That is it in a nutshell, no?

The Silver Age Luthor had a sister named Lena (LL again). His family moved away from Smallville to escape the humiliation of having a criminal for a son, and changed their name to Thorul. The sister, as I remember, gained mental powers from an alien critter in a sequence that I'm sure was the basis for a Superboy TV series plot involving Lex's girlfriend. Given that Lex is Superman's age, and I'm guessing that his niece (No L in her first name? How strange...) is Supergirl's age (Superman's age minus about 10), Lena would have had to become a mother soon after leaving town. Of course, this was all made up anyhow, and I'm sure it has been retconned out of existence. I don't remember reading the Supergirl series here; Mike Sekowsky had done better art, and this just leaves me cold.

Actually, in the letter column of that very issue, Sekowsky lays out the brief origins of Nasty Luthor.  Apparently, she's the daughter of Lex's older sister who eloped to Europe with a no-goodnick and was disowned by the family.  Man, what must the Luthors have done to their kids?

Yeah, this Supergirl series isn't exactly electrifying.  Sekowsky's art is significantly less spectacular and even more uneven than that which I enjoyed on Manhunter.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 26, 2017, 01:08:16 AM

Actually, in the letter column of that very issue, Sekowsky lays out the brief origins of Nasty Luthor.  Apparently, she's the daughter of Lex's older sister who eloped to Europe with a no-goodnick and was disowned by the family.  Man, what must the Luthors have done to their kids?

Yeah, this Supergirl series isn't exactly electrifying.  Sekowsky's art is significantly less spectacular and even more uneven than that which I enjoyed on Manhunter.

Lex's sister was younger. At least Lena was...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 26, 2017, 01:18:34 AM
Right, this was specified to be an older sister never seen on panel.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 26, 2017, 03:58:54 AM
Yeah, people in the Silver Age just grow relatives...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 26, 2017, 04:06:27 AM
And 'old friends.'  :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 26, 2017, 05:52:21 AM
And 'old friends.'  :D
So does John Constantine,but thats a different story. :)
Actually,the niece in question later shows up in All Star Superman.Once again,Grant Morrison remembers.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 26, 2017, 06:04:51 AM
I guess that's like Catwoman's brother.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 26, 2017, 05:36:53 PM
Catwoman's brother, huh?  Ha, that's a new one on me!

Spade, All-Star Superman (you really can't abbreviate that, can you?) was actually the only place I'd ever seen her before.  I mentioned it in my post.

Well gents, to celebrate a lovely Sunday, I bring y'all a new Bronze Age post!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/26/into-the-bronze-age-january-1971-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 26, 2017, 06:17:22 PM
Somehow I missed that.My bad.
Modern sociopathic version?I see you are familiar with Tom Kings run.
I seem to recall the HoM segment lasting longer,but that aside;two solid Batman tales.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 26, 2017, 07:22:10 PM
No worries, I only mentioned it briefly.

Haha, I can't say I am, but every modern interpretation of the character I've encountered has been thoroughly unlikeable.

Yeah, it was a good month for Batman.  Interestingly, I remembered the HoM story existing, but I remembered nothing about it, though I must have read it a few years ago.  It's amazing how many of these that I've read before I don't remember.  I've read all of the JLA stories, a good chunk of Batman and Detective, and well into the late 70s in B&B.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 26, 2017, 07:37:03 PM
I keep telling you  to read Paul Dini's Detective Comics run.:)
To generalize(and excluding Crazy Steve),I think Batmans characterization has been mostly consistent from say 2000 to 2011.And it wasnt all that different from O'Neill/Adams one from what I can tell.Okay,he was sometimes high during Morrisons tenure.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 26, 2017, 11:02:30 PM
http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/King_of_Cats

I even did a hex and skin for him...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 27, 2017, 12:02:15 AM
Spade, I will probably read Dini's run one day, as I've got a lot of love for his work, but it's hard to read any modern DC book because the universe is so ugly.  I'd agree that his characterization was pretty consistent, and I'd say it was consistent in its excesses as well.  Batman being a bit anti-social and cold is fitting.  Batman being a sociopath who uses people relentlessly and drives everyone close to him away is something else.  They even erred too much on that side in JLU at times, not to mention the revival episodes of TAS and Beyond.  It's odd, because in the actual TAS seasons, they got him pretty much perfectly. 

Ha!  DG, I had no idea.  How strange!  I wonder why 'King of Cats'?  One would suspect that Catman already existed, but apparently Mr. Kyle preempted him by almost a decade.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 27, 2017, 01:46:27 AM
From what I understand he even survived Crisis and Zero Hour, although 52 or Rebirth may have been the "death" of him.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 02, 2017, 05:47:58 PM
That's crazy, DG!

Well gents, here is another post.  Enjoy!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/03/02/into-the-bronze-age-january-1970-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on March 03, 2017, 01:30:47 AM
Quote
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/03/02/into-the-bronze-age-january-1970-part-3/

Going back in time a year, are we? :P
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 03, 2017, 01:34:18 AM
D'oh!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 06, 2017, 04:39:09 PM
Mondays stink, but they can be better with some Bronze Age comics!  Here is another Into the Bronze Age post, the end of January 1971, and we end on an interesting note. 
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/03/06/into-the-bronze-age-january-1971-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on March 07, 2017, 02:01:52 AM
More great reviews, Benton! Such delightfully silly stories. Incredibly delightful stories, if i do say so myself :P

Spoiler: ShowHide
Honestly, I could see Darkseid ordering the command to clone one of Superman's friends. Why not destroy somebody you hate with the things that they love? :P
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 07, 2017, 02:18:05 AM
Thanks Spyder!  I'm really glad y'all are enjoying these.  :D

Right, but:
Spoiler: ShowHide
Hulk-Jimmy is only a Jimmy because he was stolen from the DNA Project.  For some reason, regular old, presumably non-evil/non-insane humans decided that Jimmy Olsen would make the perfect soldier/servitor instead of...ohh, I don't know, Sgt. Rock or somebody, or heck, even the Guardian!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on March 07, 2017, 03:35:42 AM
Spoiler: ShowHide
Hulk-Jimmy is only a Jimmy because he was stolen from the DNA Project.  For some reason, regular old, presumably non-evil/non-insane humans decided that Jimmy Olsen would make the perfect soldier/servitor instead of...ohh, I don't know, Sgt. Rock or somebody, or heck, even the Guardian!


Spoiler: ShowHide
Very true! Maybe they chose him for his... um... ability to be anywhere plot is happening :unsure: :P?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on March 07, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
I read this thing originally, and things were going so fast that it made perfect sense that it be
Spoiler: ShowHide
Jimmy, I remembered this sequence, and even did a skin for him
.

And the mystery man who showed up at the end of the Superman story was interesting, too. I believe Spade refers to this a a reboot, but it's more a development within the series. Sadly, it lasted little longer than the mystery of who (or what) the mystery man was.
Spoiler: ShowHide
I've always wondered if Qward was involved. I know it says Quarmm, but...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 09, 2017, 04:43:04 AM
DG, yeah, Kirby's pacing is pretty breathless, which makes that easy to do, but even the first time reading it, I just knew there had to be more to the Project than meet the eye.  I was surprised when there really, really wasn't.

Yeah, it's not a reboot so much as a rennovation, the same type of thing happening all over DC comics at that time.
Spoiler: ShowHide
Quarmm?  I don't follow.


Well gents, here's to February 1971!  Check out my post on the first few books here:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/03/08/into-the-bronze-age-february-1971-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 12, 2017, 02:50:22 AM
And here is the next one, featuring some Aquaman and Batman adventures:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/03/11/into-the-bronze-age-february-1971-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 14, 2017, 10:05:26 PM
And another one!  I might just get to March before this March is over. :)
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/into-the-bronze-age-february-1971-part-3/
In this addition, the Kanigher mystery deepens!  Batgirl goes to Spain!  And Batman goes...mad?  Also, I get to talk about ring structures in comics!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on March 14, 2017, 11:28:03 PM
Hmm... Eric Frank Russel wrote an excellent tale set in a post apocalyptic earth, "Call Him Devil". I doubt the name in the Flash story is a coincidence, but really, there is no resemblance.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 15, 2017, 05:48:13 PM
Interesting DG!  I hadn't heard of him and would never have made that connection.  Thanks!  :)

Hey guys, I've got a question for those of y'all who are reading my feature.  Apparently this month includes the JLA half of the unofficial JLA/Avengers crossover.  It's not the most amazing story ever, but the fact that this happened in the first place is pretty neat.  Would there be any interest in me covering both this issue and the concurrent Avengers issue featuring the Squadron Supreme as a special feature?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on March 15, 2017, 06:00:32 PM
Why not?It is a crossover.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on March 15, 2017, 08:31:51 PM
Yes, of course. (Hey, is it just me and Spade reading these?)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on March 16, 2017, 12:57:22 AM
In the wise, immortal words of Emperor Palpatine: "Do it."

@DG (no :P)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 17, 2017, 04:20:56 AM
Well my friends, ask and ye shall receive!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/03/16/into-the-bronze-age-february-1971-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on March 17, 2017, 09:06:41 AM
Champions,or at least some of them,were later in JLI,Countdown,Multiversity;and probably other stuff I cant remember.
Extremists,the group based on Marvel villains,is probably more famous.In fact,they are in the current JLA story.Which I will get to in the near future.
And mind the hand,Hal.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on March 17, 2017, 02:25:20 PM
And, for those who are curious, Kenn X did The Champions and you can find therm at Alex's Freedom Fortress...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 17, 2017, 06:45:40 PM
That's right Spade, some of the Champions actually became members of JLI, but I didn't know about the other appearances.

I was vaguely aware of the Extremists, but I hadn't realized that they were the same kind of thing, neat!

Cool, DG, thanks for adding that!

I forgot to talk about the reference inherent in the title of the second Avengers story, so I added a note to the end of that one's commentary.  It's actually a surprisingly insightful reference.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on March 17, 2017, 07:02:24 PM
Yes,I see you mentioned that now.
There was also a similar homage in Jeph Loebs Superman/Batman.Maximums,a reference to the Ultimates.That ended up being ironic.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on March 18, 2017, 01:31:33 AM
(Hey, is it just me and Spade reading these?)
It depends. Do I actually exist?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on March 18, 2017, 01:43:51 AM
I doubt it seeing as I don't seem to exist either. Course I don't comment cause I have never understood DC anyways. I mean, all these Mans and Womans and Greens...it's like a Jolly Green Sexually Labeled Giant Convention. :-P
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 18, 2017, 03:46:05 AM
Haha, I'm more popular than I thought. : :lol:

DJ, that is one heck of a tagline.  I think DC should consult you for their marketing.  :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on March 18, 2017, 05:01:18 AM
They need it from the little I've seen. At least Bronze Age Marvel made some sense and didn't turn murderers into just lightweight buffoons (I'm looking at all you Bat villians esp Joker) with no reason. Though the current Marvel could use my help. Both of the companies are Massive Messes in the Mainstream Comics Multiverse!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 18, 2017, 01:46:01 PM
They need it from the little I've seen. At least Bronze Age Marvel made some sense and didn't turn murderers into just lightweight buffoons (I'm looking at all you Bat villians esp Joker) with no reason. Though the current Marvel could use my help. Both of the companies are Massive Messes in the Mainstream Comics Multiverse!

Haha, ain't that the truth!  Well, before too long, you're going to see the DC villains kicked up a notch.  The League of Assassins is already on the scene, and the Joker is due to make an excellent return in just two years with the famous story, "The Joker's Five Way Revenge."  We're beginning to shake off the Silver Age.  :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 27, 2017, 08:03:27 PM
And here is another chapter in my Bronze Age coverage:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/03/27/into-the-bronze-age-february-1971-part-5/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on March 28, 2017, 02:20:48 AM
Phantom Stranger made more senses the first time I read it.
Spoiler: ShowHide
 I'm guessing that Conway was thinking about Eric Von Daniken, and his suggestion that all the Gods who play in the mythological dramas in all legends from all lands were from outer space (and I'm paraphrasing Donovan). Chariots of the Gods? came out in 1968, Gods from Outer Space was published in 1970, and Gold of the Gods came out in 1972 (not sure what month, maybe Conway had read an announcement. I wonder where my copies are? With my Immaneul Velikovsky and Charles Fort books, maybe.)  Now, if The Stranger had discovered some Great Old Ones were behind it...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 28, 2017, 03:32:37 AM
Interesting theory, DG!  That could be, but Conway didn't connect the dots enough to really make that work.  I would have been okay with it if he had gone that direction, though aliens wouldn't have been as fitting antagonists for the Stranger as mythic beings.  Nonetheless, the story that we have doesn't make those connections.  I didn't realize those books were published so close to this date.  That's really fascinating.  I bet we'll see some stories that take more direct advantage of those theories.

Also, I love that Donovan song.  :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on March 28, 2017, 03:37:38 AM
I figured if you had ever heard it you would like it. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on March 28, 2017, 03:42:48 AM
Just maybe  :D:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AUEjzVQwKo
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 03, 2017, 03:27:15 AM
Alright gents, here is another post:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/04/02/into-the-bronze-age-february-1971-part-6/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on April 06, 2017, 05:47:54 AM
Speaking of goofy, I've got a fair amount of silliness in my latest Into the Bronze Age post!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/02/07/into-the-bronze-age-december-1970-part-1/

How did I miss your first column for December 1970? The Black Flame (in her Jim Mooney designed darker costume) in on my hard drive. Three or four of her, actually... The way gold kryptonite is treated in this story makes it out to be little of a threat, especially with all the fuss made over it in the past. Reminds me of a story... but they all do.

"The Black Flame" was the name of a character created by Stanley G. Weinbaum in a story that is considered a kind of SF classic.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on April 06, 2017, 05:50:50 AM
And a Hellboy villain,but I guess they were both inspired by Weinbaum.
Its also the offical magazine of American Satanistic Church.Funny what you can learn with google.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on April 06, 2017, 05:52:42 AM
And it's got me looking back at previous posts. Seems like I missed several others. :angry:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 06, 2017, 05:52:47 PM
Of course you've got her, DG!  :lol:

Yeah, the gold K was really not that much of a threat, and it contrasts with a story from just a few months earlier, which I alluded to.

Sorry you missed some of those, my friend, but here's another to add to the pile!  Here is the end of February 1971's comics:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/04/05/into-the-bronze-age-february-1971-part-7/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: dudalb on April 06, 2017, 07:43:57 PM
RIP Don Rickles, who managed to insult Superman when Jack Kirby brought Rickles into the DC universe during Kirby's famous Jimmy Olsen run...when he  made Jimmy Olsen a comic book worth reading....and it was in this run that Kirby introduced His Fourth World.

Both DC and Marvel  have on occasion brought actual people into their comic book unvierses, but few have been  as successful..or drop dead funny....as what Kirby did with Rickles .
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 10, 2017, 04:56:43 PM
Ha, well, I suppose our mileage will vary, but I was never a huge fan of Rickles' turn in Jimmy Olsen.  It was just really jarring and strange compared to what comes before and after.  Perhaps I'll enjoy it more on my second reading.

Either way, today we begin March 1971, and in this month we've got the introduction of the rest of Kirby's 4th World books.  I can't wait!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/04/10/into-the-bronze-age-march-1971-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 12, 2017, 03:41:32 AM
Howdy guys, how about another shot of Bronze Age-y goodness, this time with extra Zaney (and I do mean zaney) Haney?
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/04/11/into-the-bronze-age-march-1971-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 18, 2017, 10:30:31 PM
I'm feeling a bit redundant here, but how about another edition of Into the Bronze Age?
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/04/18/into-the-bronze-age-march-1971-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 29, 2017, 10:55:55 PM
It's been radio-silence for a long time, but now here comes more Into the Bronze Age!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/05/29/into-the-bronze-age-march-1971-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on May 29, 2017, 11:52:22 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on May 30, 2017, 04:36:57 AM
You think they would call Doctor Fate or somebody?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on May 30, 2017, 03:06:50 PM
You think they would call Doctor Fate or somebody?

Pre-Crisis calling the good doctor wasn't as easy. I don't remember if they had a magic expert like him on Earth-1. The Phantom Stranger, maybe, but he wasn't someone they could just call on the phone. Zatara or Zatanna?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on May 30, 2017, 03:38:11 PM
Would've been either Zatara, Zatanna, or Doctor Occult..that's who they would've called...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 30, 2017, 05:54:11 PM
Right!  I didn't list Dr. Fate because he was on Earth-2, so it was reasonable for them not to think of him.  DG and DJ are right, though, Zatara or Zatanna would have been probably the best choice.  I don't think Dr. Occult had been brought back yet at this point, and I imagine that folks don't exactly have a phone number for the Phantom Stranger!  :P  Still, Green Lantern is just about the last person, other than Superman, that you'd call for help with magic. :lol: 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on May 30, 2017, 06:07:17 PM
Granted,my knowlege of 70's DC is that great,but wasnt Dr Fate around?I think he had a few guest apperences and a back-up in Flash(I think)?Were those a case of  interdimensional travel?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on May 30, 2017, 06:17:18 PM
Wait, is Zatara Earth-1? I know Zatanna hopped around different character's books in the '60s looking for her father, but for a magic user hopping dimensions wouldn't be hard. Same with Dr. Occult; was he originally Earth-2?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 30, 2017, 06:42:01 PM
Dr. Fate's Earth-2 until Crisis, Spade, so yeah, any Bronze Age stories with him are either cases of dimension hopping or set on Earth-2.

DG, Zatara was supposed to be Earth-1 because of Zatanna, though that doesn't exactly line up perfectly given his history.  You can hand-wave that by just saying he was from Earth-2 but just ended up on 1.  As for Occult, because his original adventures were from the 30s and 40s, he would probably technically have been Earth-2, but he wasn't brought back until the 80s, so I don't think we ever saw it confirmed. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on May 30, 2017, 06:50:44 PM
Wait, is Zatara Earth-1? I know Zatanna hopped around different character's books in the '60s looking for her father, but for a magic user hopping dimensions wouldn't be hard. Same with Dr. Occult; was he originally Earth-2?

The original Zatara was a member of the All-Star Squadron so I'd say he is part of Earth-1.

Granted,my knowlege of 70's DC is that great,but wasnt Dr Fate around?I think he had a few guest apperences and a back-up in Flash(I think)?Were those a case of  interdimensional travel?

Doc Fate was running around all the way back in the 1940s (the original Kent Nelson) and was an establishing member of the JSA, though he did retire for a time ('41-'60), but by 1960 he was back and at it again.  SO there is a potential to call him too, though, I daresay it would've been a hassle.  Zatara would've been the go to back then because he was extremely easy to get a hold of...other than doing stage shows he was free a lot.

EDIT: NINJA'D BY BG...  :banghead:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on May 30, 2017, 07:33:49 PM
Dr. Fate's Earth-2 until Crisis, Spade, so yeah, any Bronze Age stories with him are either cases of dimension hopping or set on Earth-2.

DG, Zatara was supposed to be Earth-1 because of Zatanna, though that doesn't exactly line up perfectly given his history.  You can hand-wave that by just saying he was from Earth-2 but just ended up on 1.  As for Occult, because his original adventures were from the 30s and 40s, he would probably technically have been Earth-2, but he wasn't brought back until the 80s, so I don't think we ever saw it confirmed.

He actually showed up for one issue of All Star Sqaudron, so yeah, he was Earth 2. Mind you, the whole thing is convoluted as heck. Characters like the first Robotman or Wildcat or Plasticman were originally supposed to be from Earth 2, but then you had other stories saying they also had alternative versions on Earth 1, even though most of them are mainly Golden Age characters and Earth 2 was supposed to be the Golden Age hangout. Now, Plasticman and Wildcat's Earth 1 versions were in Brave and the Bold, so that could just be blamed on Zaney Haney, but then there's Steve Englehart throwing Robotman into a flashback in his Justice League run. Honestly, part of me welcomed Crisis because it simplified the whole thing. I usually don't mind the concept of a multiverse, but by the mid 80's, DC needed to clean house a bit.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on June 01, 2017, 04:23:28 PM
Ha, sorry DJ! 

Kk, yeah, they definitely needed streamlining and house-cleaning, but, like every other time they've done it, they didn't do a thorough enough job.  Of course, Crisis was still infinitely more successful than every other attempt. 

By the way, just a random aside, but I've been re-reading the O'Neil JLA issues from before my Bronze Age jumping on point, and man, they are BAD!  I was surprised, because, for the most part, his comics in the era I've been reading have been reasonably good, if overwrought or underdeveloped, but how he gets rid of the Martian Manhunter in pretty terrible.  I guess it took him a while to find his sea legs.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on June 01, 2017, 11:31:06 PM

By the way, just a random aside, but I've been re-reading the O'Neil JLA issues from before my Bronze Age jumping on point, and man, they are BAD!  I was surprised, because, for the most part, his comics in the era I've been reading have been reasonably good, if overwrought or underdeveloped, but how he gets rid of the Martian Manhunter in pretty terrible.  I guess it took him a while to find his sea legs.

But... I really liked that story! :( I thought it was one of the best stories the Classic League ever put out. It had pathos, intense action, an interesting story, even some half-decent character work. (Which for most of DC prior to the late 70's was pretty rare, let me tell you.) With all due respect, just what made it so terrible?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on June 03, 2017, 04:58:50 AM
Howdy folks!  We finally get to New Gods #1 in this new Bronze Age feature!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/into-the-bronze-age-march-1971-part-5/

Sorry KK!  I don't mean to insult a story you enjoyed, but I rather strongly disliked that one.  See, O'Neil rarely writes a yarn that has nothing to recommend it.  They've always got interesting ideas, good moments, or at least something to recommend them, even when Green Arrow is invoking Godwin's Law left and right by calling everyone and their brother a Nazi.  That story is no exception.  There are some cool moments, like the taking of the Martian ship, or the final showdown with Blanx, and you're right, there is some attempt at characterization and pathos, which is commendable .  The major problems with that issue are:

A) The severity of the retcon O'Neil foists on MM, just to get him out of the book and with zero intentions to follow it up
B) The incredibly silly explanations of the conflict on Mars, including the silly McGuffin of the fire tree, that, despite being a source of Martian weaknesses, is the ONLY source of heat on the planet?  That's pretty asinine, though it is a cool visual. 
C) The unexplained weirdness of MM's conduct in the beginning of the book and the implied irrationality of his conduct over the decade plus of his exile, as he apparently just forgot about his people's plight for yeras.
D) The unnecessary severity of the disaster O'Neil inflicts on the Martians, annihilating the race in a few panels and with almost no focus to justify it.
E) A corollary, the weakness of Blanx's motivations in light of his genocide, without any real development of the horror that the banality of evil should generate, i.e., his willingness to murder his race in order to become wealthy should be given major weight to contrast its weakness.
D) The fact that J'onn straight up kills Blanx in the end, once again, without comment or focus.

It's not a bad read out of context, but it's not a good story.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on June 03, 2017, 05:20:31 AM
Howdy folks!  We finally get to New Gods #1 in this new Bronze Age feature!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/into-the-bronze-age-march-1971-part-5/

Sorry KK!  I don't mean to insult a story you enjoyed, but I rather strongly disliked that one.  See, O'Neil rarely writes a yarn that has nothing to recommend it.  They've always got interesting ideas, good moments, or at least something to recommend them, even when Green Arrow is invoking Godwin's Law left and right by calling everyone and their brother a Nazi.  That story is no exception.  There are some cool moments, like the taking of the Martian ship, or the final showdown with Blanx, and you're right, there is some attempt at characterization and pathos, which is commendable .  The major problems with that issue are:

A) The severity of the retcon O'Neil foists on MM, just to get him out of the book and with zero intentions to follow it up
B) The incredibly silly explanations of the conflict on Mars, including the silly McGuffin of the fire tree, that, despite being a source of Martian weaknesses, is the ONLY source of heat on the planet?  That's pretty asinine, though it is a cool visual. 
C) The unexplained weirdness of MM's conduct in the beginning of the book and the implied irrationality of his conduct over the decade plus of his exile, as he apparently just forgot about his people's plight for yeras.
D) The unnecessary severity of the disaster O'Neil inflicts on the Martians, annihilating the race in a few panels and with almost no focus to justify it.
E) A corollary, the weakness of Blanx's motivations in light of his genocide, without any real development of the horror that the banality of evil should generate, i.e., his willingness to murder his race in order to become wealthy should be given major weight to contrast its weakness.
D) The fact that J'onn straight up kills Blanx in the end, once again, without comment or focus.

It's not a bad read out of context, but it's not a good story.

Hm. You have some good points, but I think I'd have to read it again to see if I really agree with them. I will say this. I grew up with J'onn always having been the last of his kind. To me, that was simply who J'onn was, and I couldn't think of him any other way. It was only later that I learned this wasn't always the case, and it was only after that that I saw Young Justice, which to my knowledge is the only major modern work with J'onn in it that has the other Martians alive and well. Now to be fair, I've got nothing against J'onn not being the last member of his species and not having to deal with the mainpain that entails, but at the same time, that also means that I'm not vehemently opposed to the story that made him the (kinda sorta) last in the first place, simply because that's just what I'm used to. And while there probably are still a number of issues with that story, I'm also mindful of the time this story was made and who was making it, and of just how worthwhile it really is in that context. What I'm saying is that while I acknowledge those problems may exist, I may not not necessarily mind them, even if I end up agreeing with you on how some of them were handled.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on June 03, 2017, 02:41:53 PM
Yeah, but I grew up with J'onn as an unwilling exile of a once-advanced race that still clung to existence along the canals of Mars. There were cameos of other Martians (along with a guest shot of T'omm J'onzz, J'onn's brother). This story took a soft science fiction character and tried to make him "relevant", a process they still do today. As for Blanx, Google Idi Amin and see if you think that might be were they got the idea from. See, this told me that J'onn had been lying, and all those silly, funny, enjoyable stories were not what they appeared to be. I haven't read the JLA story in decades, but if memory serves, it was also probably a way to get rid of J'onn because no one knew what to do with him. Yes, even then, all the good MM stories had been written.

No, I didn't sleep good last night. I'll quit now. But:

Whatever happen to Zook, anyway? (No, I don't really want to know; he was probably revealed to be the supremely evil ruler of his dimension who was hiding on Earth as he prepared to conquer this plane of existence.)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on June 04, 2017, 09:46:16 PM
Hm. You have some good points, but I think I'd have to read it again to see if I really agree with them. I will say this. I grew up with J'onn always having been the last of his kind. To me, that was simply who J'onn was, and I couldn't think of him any other way. It was only later that I learned this wasn't always the case, and it was only after that that I saw Young Justice, which to my knowledge is the only major modern work with J'onn in it that has the other Martians alive and well. Now to be fair, I've got nothing against J'onn not being the last member of his species and not having to deal with the mainpain that entails, but at the same time, that also means that I'm not vehemently opposed to the story that made him the (kinda sorta) last in the first place, simply because that's just what I'm used to. And while there probably are still a number of issues with that story, I'm also mindful of the time this story was made and who was making it, and of just how worthwhile it really is in that context. What I'm saying is that while I acknowledge those problems may exist, I may not not necessarily mind them, even if I end up agreeing with you on how some of them were handled.

Kk, my friend, you also make some good points, but I think you partially misunderstand the focus of my critique.  I'm also one who knows MM best as the last of his race.  In fact, it is that interpretation that shows up in my idealized DCU, the DCUG, and I've got no plans to change it.  That's the version I like best, as I feel it adds the most to his character.  I have zero problem with that take on the character, and I have zero problem with the idea of a story that establishes such.  On the other hand, I do have a problem with the casual and slap-dash manner in which this was accompanied in O'Neil's book.  Something of that scope demands more focus and narrative space. 

Your point about when and where this story debuted is a good one, and something I try to keep in mind as I write my posts, but one of my main standards is, where there examples of such things being done well by this point, and there certainly were.  Fantastic storytelling was mature enough in 1968 that O'Neil, simply put, should have known better. 

But nonetheless, I don't want to ruin the story for you or anything, and you need not agree with me.  As you say, the same issues may not trouble you. 



DG, haha, I feel ya', man!  Idi Amin certainly would provide a good source for Blanx, but he didn't really rise to power until '70, a year after the story in question was published.  This story definitely made a very different creature out of MM.  He had been a fairly light character, but the tragedy this event saddles him with makes something else out of him.  And then, after having written an event that provided fodder for countless stories, O'Neil just packs the character off to parts unknown.  Yeah, disposing of a character like J'onn so haphazardly is just lazy writing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PutOnABus

Apparently, Zook has never officially reappeared after the 60s MM series was cancelled.  Shame.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on June 04, 2017, 10:16:27 PM
With Idi Amin it seemed longer. ;)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on June 07, 2017, 01:09:09 AM
Ha, fair enough!

And also hopefully both fair and enough, I've got the final post for March 1971 finished!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/into-the-bronze-age-march-1971-part-6/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on July 04, 2017, 05:14:10 PM
We're back from our travels and I'm back in the Bronze Age!  Check out the new post, and come back soon for a special feature!  :D
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/07/04/into-the-bronze-age-april-1971-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on July 10, 2017, 04:37:02 AM
Howdy gents!  I come bearing special editions!  Today we cover a two part story, with part 1 from DC and part 2 from Marvel!  I also cover the final issue of Aquaman, sadly. 
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/07/09/into-the-bronze-age-april-1971-part-2-special-edition/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on July 13, 2017, 04:31:13 AM
Annnnd another one, this time with the first appearance of Mr. Miracle!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/07/12/into-the-bronze-age-april-1971-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on July 18, 2017, 04:18:30 AM
Howdy folks, I've got a spine-tingling horror-flavored tale for y'all tonight!  Here comes another edition of Into the Bronze Age!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/07/17/into-the-bronze-age-april-1971-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on July 18, 2017, 04:39:08 AM
Darn. Now I have to do Super-Clark...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on July 18, 2017, 01:39:50 PM
Hahaha!  I don't know if you HAVE to... :lol:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Epimethee on July 22, 2017, 04:37:35 PM
Quite interesting reads, Benton. The surprise Submariner review and the context of the last Aquaman story added a lot. And of course, Kirby's Miracleman debut…!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on July 27, 2017, 06:02:26 PM
Thanks Epi!  I'm very glad you enjoyed it.  Yeah, I enjoyed that first Mr. Miracle issue more than I expected on this reading.  It really was a lot of fun. :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on July 30, 2017, 04:15:27 AM
Howdy folks, and welcome to more Bronze Age goodness!  We've got another issue of Kirby's Jimmy Olsen today, which is a highlight.  Check it out!:
bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/07/29/into-the-bronze-age-april-1971-part-5/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on August 04, 2017, 03:38:30 AM
So I was thinking about just where to put this and figured, hey, if I'm going to to be talking an old Bronze Age comic from DC, I might as well post it in a thread about old Bronze Age comics from DC. So here we are.

Anyhoo, I've started reading the 70's Titans books again, mostly because I've really been getting into the 80's Titans and, subsequently, the Titans themselves. I read the first 30 issues or so from the 60's and early 70's, but it never really hooked me. The characters were never all that interesting, even for the time, and the book either never had a real direction or, when it did, either attempted to confound you with TOTALLY RADICAL hippie slang and fads, or tried to turn its' characters into powerless secret agents with even less life and personality than before. Needless to say, the 80's blew everything that came before in the book out of the water and even some of DC's other comics at the time, like Justice League. I will say after reading more of DC's Bronze Age output that they did start getting better as a whole long before the Crisis. I'd say about '77 with stuff like Englehart's Detective Comics run is their watershed year, and when they finally started getting on par with Marvel. But the 80's Titans was groundbreaking stuff regardless. In any case, it's gotten me hooked on the Titans, so now I want to read those 70's issues that I skipped to fill in the gap; get a sense of what happened in between and also get to know some of the Bronze Age Members better, because there were a good number of Titans that were only active members in that era.

Anyhoo, I'm starting with #32 and, while it's not bad, again, the 80's books make it look like a school play. I'm not even sure Wally has a real personality here, which is baffling because Mal Duncan of all people does. I'm actually starting to like the dude. He didn't have a real personality starting out either, but now he's become a nice, easygoing guy that can put 'er up if he needs to. Basically like he is in YJ, except here he's a major player and not just one of the MANY neglected members of The Team that the show didn't really focus on and didn't really need. It's worth reading these just to see some of these neglected Titans getting proper attention. But the real kicker is this little exchange:

MAL: Love your white soul, brother Titan!

WALLY: Love your black one Mal, and if I've got any soul, you've taught me how! Let's go!

Just try reading that out of context without getting any ideas. Come on. I dare you. Seriously though, did the writers even realize just what they were doing here? Maybe it's just how DC's characters tended to talk back then, I don't know, but anything coming close to that nowadays would be nothing short of a declaration. And this isn't the only time these two have an exchange like that either. It almost makes you wonder if the writer DID know what he was doing. (Almost. Almost.)

But yeah, other than that, it's not a bad issue, but I don't know if I'd call it great or anything. Marvel was still blasting DC out of the park, and it would still be a few years before they'd start playing catchup in earnest. But if you're a Titans fan, it's worth checking out these issues just for the Titans history alone.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on August 04, 2017, 04:56:27 AM
I always liked The Titans, even when they were teens. It's a series I read from the beginning (in Brave and Bold?), but by the '70s, they were running pretty sparse on ideas. It's funny that the '80s series took the characters an did so much with them.

If you think about it, they tried to de-power Wonder Woman, and at the time Benton is reviewing she was still "normal".
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on August 05, 2017, 04:36:29 AM
So I was reading Teen Titans #35 and came across this:

DONNA: And we're not really Mr.Jupiter's children!

MR.JUPITER: In a way you are Donna...

Uuuuuuuuuhh...

(Again, it probably came across as a lot skeevier than intended, but still.)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on August 05, 2017, 03:23:01 PM
You know, at this point, I'm starting to think that the writers either must have known what they were doing or were just that oblivious because this can't be a coincidence. Let's take a lookie, shall we?

MR.JUPITER: I've got important work here, so Robin, you'll lead the team to Ranistan and find [Grady]!You must!

ROBIN: We will, if there's half a chance! I remember we first met that beautiful character...

You know, considering what Robin usually goes dressed in, maybe it isn't that far-fetched...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on August 05, 2017, 04:33:10 PM
Well,he did sleep in the same bed with Batman,so... :unsure:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on August 06, 2017, 11:17:36 PM
And it just keeps coming. To be fair, the main story of TT #41 doesn't have anything really explicit in it or anything, but the backup story is a different kettle of fish. This might just be more due to the artist f'ing up than anything else, admittedly, but that doesn't stop a kid Lilith saves from making a porn face. I couldn't make that up if I tried. Maybe it's the dead soulless eyes or just the particular way in which the kid's roundish mouth is drawn, and the artist might not have even known what he was doing, but it's there nonetheless.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on August 09, 2017, 04:06:37 PM
Haha, interesting timing, Kk, as I just recently read #32 and posted my commentary on it:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/08/08/into-the-bronze-age-april-1971-part-6/

Yeah, it's a weird issue, and it's a weird run in general.  The first portion of it is all Zany Haney, and is exactly what you'd expect from him, including the forced and utterly painful 60s slang.  Steve Skeates' tenure on the book has proven better, in general, but we're still dealing with a team and a concept that hasn't quite reached its potential.  It's not really fair to compare it to the NTT era book, as that is really a different animal.  Of course, that book is one of the all-time greats, but it also benefited from a unity of control and vision.  There's still some charm to these old Titans stories, but they are definitely still evolving.  I think if Skeates had the opportunity to stay on the book and really make it his own, we might have seen something special develop.  As it is, we just get more of Haney's poorly planned wackiness, entertaining, but not very substantive.

The 'soul' exchange is pretty goofy.  It made me laugh out loud as I read, but I didn't take it as anything romantic, even unintentionally so, but perhaps that's because I've been engrossed in 70s books over the last year and change.  The language struck me as dated, but understandable. 

Yeah, DG, I'm actually waiting for them to return WW to herself in 72/3 to start cataloging her books. 

Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on August 12, 2017, 06:05:30 PM
So I finally finished the original TT today, and while it wasn't horrible, it wasn't exactly what you'd call a classic. While it did have its' moments and could be fun, more often than not, it was just kind of bland more than anything else, and when it wasn't bland, it was 60's hippe-slang and outfaded fads. It was alright for DC at the time, but that's not really saying much, because outside of fringe books like Doom Patrol or the Legion, DC didn't really stack up to Marvel until the late 70's or so. Speaking of which, I will say that that the late 70's Titans was a big step up from what came before and if it had been published a few years earlier could even have matched up against Marvel. Except this was 1976-1978, which meant Claremont's X-Men run had started just a year or so prior and singlehandedly raised the gold standard practically overnight, so compared to that and some other books Marvel was doing, it was still a bit lacking.

But I think the most darning thing was, especially with what was to come later, that the Titans never really had much of its' own mythos. When it came to having a rogues gallery, common plot elements and trappings, etc., I'm not sure I can really mention a single thing that stood out. X-Men was the same way before Claremont came along outside of Magneto and the Brotherhood, except again, Claremont was on the scene by the time the original book came to an end. Teen Titans needed a serious kick in the pants, and just a couple years later, it got just that. This was a book that could go toe to toe with anything on the stand and was even better than some of them, fleshing out the cast more than the old books ever did while also giving the Titans their own recognizable elements and mythos; their own distinct part of the 'verse as it were. That's what X-Men did, and that's how the X-Men got to be where they are now, and it was the same with the Titans.

That said, as a fan of the 80's Titans, it was still worth reading the old stuff. It never comes anywhere close to the 80's stuff, but it's still interesting to see how it used to be and to get to know all of those earlier members that the 80's book doesn't focus on that much. Even if we never even really got to know some of them that well regardless. (Aqualad and Bumblebee, I'm looking at you.) But in terms of being a good worthwhile book that can stand on its' own? Not so much.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on August 12, 2017, 06:43:49 PM
At this time Marvel had something DC didnt;Steve Gerber.A man well ahead of his time.And a great lineup of horror books.Tomb of Dracula,Werewolf by Night,Ghost Rider(that will become more conventional pretty fast)...
Thou,my knowlege of 70's DC isnt all that great tbh.Some Batman,Some Swamp Thing,parts of House of Mystery,GL/Green Arrow and thats about it.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on August 12, 2017, 07:50:36 PM
At this time Marvel had something DC didnt;Steve Gerber.A man well ahead of his time.And a great lineup of horror books.Tomb of Dracula,Werewolf by Night,Ghost Rider(that will become more conventional pretty fast)...
Thou,my knowlege of 70's DC isnt all that great tbh.Some Batman,Some Swamp Thing,parts of House of Mystery,GL/Green Arrow and thats about it.

Completely forgot about Steve Gerber. Yeah, his stuff was incredible, but at the same time, so was DC's Doom Patrol and Legion back in the 60's. As great as his stuff was, it didn't necessarily represent Marvel as a whole, same as Doom Patrol and Legion didn't represent most of DC, whereas Claremont's X-Men and DC's NTT had a much more noticeable impact.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on August 13, 2017, 05:18:33 AM
Taken as a whole,Marvel was weirder then DC in those days.Im just now reading a comic where SHIELD takes on Godzilla with a giant rubik cube launcher.No,seriously. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on August 13, 2017, 02:17:26 PM
Taken as a whole,Marvel was weirder then DC in those days.Im just now reading a comic where SHIELD takes on Godzilla with a giant rubik cube launcher.No,seriously. :)

Doesn't mean it still wasn't better though. And I think what you just described is as good an example as any. ;)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on August 13, 2017, 04:02:08 PM
I didn't say that was a bad thing.It was a good kind of weirdness.
Seems like it hard to strike a balance these days.Most stories either take themselves too seriously,or just try to be weird for the sake of weird.But that's a another topic.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on August 15, 2017, 02:40:33 PM
Hah!  Well gents, I think Kk is more or less right.  The second volume of Teen Titans is a pretty mixed bag, very uneven and without any clear direction.  In other words, it's a book largely written by Zaney Bob Haney.  As creative as that guy was, he wasn't much for interconnecting plots, continuing development, or planning ahead.  He's actually a significant part of the reason that Aquaman has such a weak rogue's gallery, since he rarely ever brought an enemy back when he was writing the book in the Silver Age.

Yeah, Marvel was publishing better books, on the whole.  I think that's probably safe to say, but DC had some standout titles and innovation was happening on both sides of that fence.  I've been reading through some Marvel books from the 70s that I hadn't read before, and I've been really impressed by the social relevance in Captain America.  It can be plenty clumsy, but it still tends to be more subtle and more effective than O'Neil's Green Lantern/Green Arrow.  It helps that the book has a black protagonist, giving a very different point of view on issues of race and the like. 

That being said, arguing that the increase in quality in the DC books is somehow undercut by Claremont's X-Men run is rather unfair.  You're comparing the DC books to one of the greatest comic runs of all time.  Most comics, from any company or any period, can't stand up to that comparison.  :)  Your point about the impact the book had is a good one, though.  There's little doubt that Claremont's run was influential in multiple ways.

Well, I'm curious to see what is coming for the TT book in the rest of the Bronze Age.  I'm fairly certain I'm just starting to get into the good stuff here.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on August 15, 2017, 05:30:56 PM
That being said, arguing that the increase in quality in the DC books is somehow undercut by Claremont's X-Men run is rather unfair.  You're comparing the DC books to one of the greatest comic runs of all time.  Most comics, from any company or any period, can't stand up to that comparison.  :)

Yeah, you're probably right. Even taking Claremont out of the equation though, while the late 70's Titans was okay, it still had problems, ones which were there from the beginning. While characters like Speedy, Mal, and the Joker's Daughter (now that's an out there character concept if I've ever heard of one...) were reasonably fleshed out for most books of the time, others like Dick, Donna, and Wally weren't really given the time of day. You could argue that it's because it they were still showing up in their mentors's books, (though I'm not even sure if Donna really was,) but seeing what the 80's Titans did with the three of them, that's really no excuse. Bumblee doesn't really get much development either, but Aqualad's the real offender. From start to finish, the poor lad (see what I did there? ;)) barely had as much of an inkling of real personality outside of horridly done catchphrases and being a bit ticked off or a bit chipper depending on whether or not it was Tuesday. Same with Aquaman over in JL IMO. So while it was definitively a step up, it was still beaten out by other books on the stand, including some from its' own company. Englehart's Detective Comics run was out by the time the TT finished up and it basically provided a model that scores of Batman writers for years to come would follow, nevermind providing the foundations for Batman TAS. You also had other knockouts like the Warlord and the Legion, which just got its' mojo back after suffering for a while after Shooter left at the end of the 60's, and others I'm sure. The late 70's was when DC finally got its' game on, but even though it was better than ever, Titans just couldn't quite hack it until Wolfman and Perez came into the picture. Sad but true.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on August 15, 2017, 06:47:36 PM
I haven't read those issues, but I imagine you're probably right, Kk.  I get the impression that the Titans was always a second class book for DC. 

As for poor Aqualad, I think he suffered from the same thing as the rest of the Sea King's supporting cast.  His mentor's book was cancelled just at the point where major characterization work was getting under way, and he missed out on most of a decade of defining stories.  It's a crying shame.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on August 21, 2017, 07:15:50 PM
Howdy folks!  I've got another edition ready.  Check it out here:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/08/21/into-the-bronze-age-may-1971-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on August 26, 2017, 02:42:15 AM
I've got a real treat for y'all today, the reappearance of the greatest Batman villain of all time!
bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/into-the-bronze-age-may-1970-part-2-2/

What?  No, not the Joker.  Why would you think that?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on August 27, 2017, 10:38:26 PM
And while I had some time this weekend I knocked out another post:
bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/08/27/into-the-bronze-age-may-1971-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on August 28, 2017, 12:53:21 AM
The Flash had that power for years, and has used it in pretty much the same way before. When you are 10-12, it's so neat, and when you get 16-17 you just accept it because he has always done that. My favorite was the first Flash story I ever read: Captain Cold blasted one side of his body and Heatwave blasted the other, and he mixed molecules to neutralize the effects. Pretty cool when you are like 8 years old...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on August 28, 2017, 04:16:07 AM
I know he's got control over his molecules to a degree, but this is just too much.  If Kanigher had said 'he vibrated his molecules so the ray didn't affect him,' I'd have been fine with it.  But he was hit and disintegrated, and he reversed it by magic.  That moment reflected the lack of thought that characterized the rest of the issue.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 08, 2017, 03:48:04 PM
Howdy folks!  Here on this lovely Friday I come bearing more Bronze Age goodness...or at least, Bronze Age mediocrity...
bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/09/08/into-the-bronze-age-may-1971-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 08, 2017, 04:24:16 PM
Oh, yeah... this is the dreaded Nixon/Agnew issue of Green Lantern/Green Arrow.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 08, 2017, 04:52:20 PM
Oh, yeah... this is the dreaded Nixon/Agnew issue of Green Lantern/Green Arrow.
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/2aGJ4.jpg)
At least it wasnt all that preachy.
The flower shop should reopen in 15 or so years(in Seattle) as Sherwood Florist.But I shilled Grells run enough these past few days.  :)
And look,this guy:
(http://static1.cbrimages.com/wp-content/uploads/goodcomics/2010/08/08-31-2010-014250PM.jpg?cs=tinysrgb&q=50&w=791&h=1316&fit=crop)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 12, 2017, 03:29:01 AM
Ha, Futurama's Nixon is hilarious!

I've got another Bronze Age post for your viewing pleasures, folks!  Enjoy!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/09/11/into-the-bronze-age-may-1971-part-5/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 14, 2017, 04:45:05 PM
And this finishes out the month of May.:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/09/14/into-the-bronze-age-may-1970-part-6/

I hope y'all enjoy it!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 19, 2017, 04:10:24 AM
Welcome to June, folks!  We've got an important issue on tap in this batch, so check it out here:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/09/18/into-the-bronze-age-june-1971-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 25, 2017, 03:32:09 PM
Here's another post, for those as care.  Thanks to those of y'all who are reading my ruminations!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/09/25/into-the-bronze-age-june-1971-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 25, 2017, 06:43:11 PM
It was a long time ago,but I think Batman TAS adapted Ras' first apperence almost panel for panel.Like you said.
First time I heard how he figured out Batmans identity,my first thought was: How come nobody else did that?  :)
Something that always bugged me,Darkseid is menacing enough;his minions are not.Seriously,they look like a poor theater troop.Was that the point?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 25, 2017, 06:45:49 PM
The mooks, minions, and agents are to keep the heroes occupied while you proceed with your nefarious plan. They are just a distraction.

Muahahahahahahha....
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 25, 2017, 06:52:47 PM
Okay,Granny Goodness is kinda scary.Kato,circuis Hitler and the rest are just ridicolous.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 25, 2017, 08:14:22 PM
Kalabak is useful because he is double-o stoopid, and The Deep Six, Mantis, Granny, and the Furies can hold their own against a lot (which does not include Kryptonians, Martians, and the occasional Shazam-powered human) of characters, but, yes, Virmin Vundabarr, Glorious Godfrey. Dr. Bedlam, Kanto, and Desaad are basically one-note characters whose main purpose seems to be to foul up and require that Darkseid save them.

Bear in mind: this was great fun back in the '70s
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 26, 2017, 08:54:49 PM
Yep, HT, B:TAS did indeed adapt that story, and it was great!

Interestingly enough, that's more or less Batman's response as well.

As for Darkseid's minions, I don't know; I think some of them are pretty great.  Obviously Kalibak is just a big, dumb punching bag, but there's value in that.  I've always rather liked Kanto, as I feel like he has a certain style that makes him interesting.  Superman:TAS used him well.  Virmin Vunderbarr, Dr. Beldam, and Glorious Godfrey are basically just plot devices, the setup for a certain type of story or challenge for the hero, but they serve a dramatic purpose.  I actually just re-read Granny Godness's first appearance, and I was struck with what a great character she is.  She's got tons of personality, and her real staying power comes from the fact that she's an inversion of a classic archetype, the motherly/grandmotherly figure.  She's essentially the anti-Ma Kent, and that works on multiple levels, especially in the context of Apokolipitan society.

Haha, who are you calling 'Circus Hitler'?  That's a hilarious description!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 27, 2017, 05:03:37 AM
Virmin. :)
Okay,I stole that from Ygo Arc-V abridged series.
Im just saying that in terms of visual apperence,none of them exactly convey "Im working for satan".But that was probably the point.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 27, 2017, 02:19:06 PM
Desaad looks like he would work for Darkseid, but Godfrey looking somewhat less than dangerous is all part of his shtick.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 27, 2017, 05:25:21 PM
Actually, HT, one of my readers recently made a comment that I found quite intriguing.  He pointed out that Kirby's Darkseid was: 'a monster, but a more human monster, aging and with fears and regrets, like Stalin or other dictators.'  I thought that this seemed a very apt analogy, given Kirby's life experience.  He had, after all fought in World War II and lived through the tense early days of the Cold War.  What do the servants of such human monsters look like?  There are the bruisers, the popinjays, the sycophants, and so on.  Darkseid's minions map surprisingly well onto such a canvas.  It is a mythic version of the monsters of our own day, a new mythology to capture and embody the struggles of our world.  I think this may be a productive take on the characters.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 27, 2017, 05:59:27 PM
Which makes sense,I guess.
For me two most iconic Darkeid moments (both from Giffen) are Darkseid smiling (which is disturbing because hes actually HAPPY) and him reading Mein Kampf.
Its all seems quite and uneventfull,but it gets scary on several levels.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 29, 2017, 02:51:04 AM
Huh, yeah, I could see that.

Well folks, I've got a new post ready, and it features a trio of comics that were really quite interesting to cover.  Check them out here:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/09/28/into-the-bronze-age-june-1971-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 29, 2017, 05:00:31 AM
Arent Thanagarians atheists?Considering they killed their gods.But,I guess that was a later thing.Is Hawkman even from Thanagar here?I never could keep track of that. :)
Btw,next month sees the debut of Swamp Thing.Thats kind of a big thing. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on September 29, 2017, 05:51:22 AM
Arent Thanagarians atheists?Considering they killed their gods.

Reminds me of that bit from Star Trek...

WORF: We Klingons killed our Gods. They proved too much trouble than they were worth.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 29, 2017, 07:29:17 AM
Well,Klingons are meant to be a commentary on the Soviet Union,so...
On a similar note,prime directive isnt a big thing for the JLA.  :lol:
Helping out alien planets and deposing their rulers happens pretty often.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 29, 2017, 06:36:20 PM
HT: When I mentioned how the moment really was rather fitting for Hawkman, I was actually referencing the angle that Tony Isabella took in Hawkman Vol. 2, where he made the Thanagarians atheists but had the Winged Wonder discover the value of spirituality in a very Kantian fashion (i.e., not all questions can be answered by logic).  I don't know about them killing their gods.  That sounds sorta nuts!

Ha, Kk, that sounds about right for the Klingons.

Yep, the JLA is sort of the anti-Prime Directive!

Thanks for reading, guys!

Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 29, 2017, 06:49:53 PM
That might have been from DCAU?Or maybe its another Geoff Johns thing?Im pretty sure its a '00 thing.Rann-Thanagar war?It will come to me. :unsure:

Kinda topical,soon Len Wein takes over Justice League and the famous Hawkman/Green Lantern feud will begin. :)

While googling this I found something I feel obliged to share.And its also kinda topical.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-10-hilariously-confusing-origins-of-hawkman-1451537031 (https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-10-hilariously-confusing-origins-of-hawkman-1451537031)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on September 29, 2017, 07:27:40 PM
The Prime Directive is danger and disease wrapped in darkness and silence. Or to use a far less hyperbolic means of expression, what started off as a well-intentioned guideline turned into an asinine mandate that the various Trek crews stupidly felt compelled to carry out to the letter more often than not, even when doing so tends to go against everyone's interests in the process. I think Riker from the first New Frontier novel (seriously, go check them out if you haven't yet, they're freaking awesome,) puts it best:

RIKER: The Prime Directive, Admiral [Jellico], last time I checked, did not first appear on the wall of Starfleet Headquarters in flaming letters accompanied by a sepulchral voice intoning, Thou Shalt Not Butt In. It’s a guide for day-to-day interaction with developing races so that we don’t have umpty-ump Starfleet officers running around playing god by their own rules. But this is not day-to-day Admiral. And we’re not talking about playing god. We’re talking about showing compassion for fellow living beings. Tell me, Admiral, while you were sitting on Deep Space Five waiting for us to show up, did you actually walk around and interact with the refugees? Did you see the misery in their faces, the fear in their eyes? Did you help patch up the wounded, stand by the bedside of the dying, say a prayer for the dead? Or did you sit isolated in your quarters grumbling over the inconvenience? [...] The Prime Directive was created by men and women, no better or worse than any of us, and I respectfully submit that if our hands are so completely tied by it that we sit around impotently, then we have to seriously reconsider what the hell it is we’re all about.

In other words, (and to bring this vaguely back on topic,) if the League are going to go around interfering in other planets' affairs, then as long as they're at least actually helping people and making a difference, then I say more power to them, because going the route of the Prime Directive would just be a million times worse.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 30, 2017, 01:56:33 AM
I wholeheartedly agree about the Prime Directive. But part of why it was there to cause suspense, or to punish the guilty (Omega Glory), or create prevent contamination problems (A Piece of the Action, which reminds me more than a little of Anderson and Dickson's The Sheriff of Canyon Gulch), and drive the plots of all sorts of stories on Star Trek (all of them). Riker's assessment sounds logical and realistic; it's a guideline, and if you violate it, you had better have a good reason (see the 25th century best seller "The Life and Times of James T. Kirk").
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 30, 2017, 04:45:08 AM
HT, I think I may remember something like that from JLU.  And yes, this is the alien policeman Katar version.

You know, I had thought that the Hawkman/GA antipathy had started with Denny O'Neil, so I was surprised that I didn't encounter it during his tenure.  Still, if I remember correctly from my previous read-through, that antagonism wasn't as bad as I expected.  It will be interesting to analyze it more closely in this read-through.

Yeah, sheesh, DC just could NOT figure out what they wanted to do with this character.  The fact that they didn't have a plan for him post (*sigh* original) Crisis is ridiculous.  Ha, I didn't even know about all of that mess on that list!  Poor Katar is one of the more obvious symptoms of DC's inability to get its act together.

JLA: I agree entirely.  Given the character and moral authority of the (classic) JLA, they are exactly the people to intervene in that fashion and that can produce some great stories.  They are men and women of the highest quality, and theirs is a fantasy universe.  That's a pretty important distinction, because their stories exist in bolder colors and sharper delineation than the real world.  That makes it easier to do what is right, regardless of the consequences.  I'm thinking of the U.S.'s history of intervention during the Cold War, where we did some terrible things in the name of the greater good.

The Prime Directive: Interesting conversation guys!  I pretty much agree, but I think that the context of its original creation is really fascinating in considering the Prime Directive.  It's essentially a complete and unambiguous rejection of colonialism, which was very much a live issue in the 1960s, with decolonization well underway all around the world.  The Prime Directive declares: 'even though we're technologically advanced and may be inclined to look down on other cultures, we do not have the moral authority to determine a civilization's fate.  We don't have the right to change or 'improve' a culture to suit our tastes or value.'  That's pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on September 30, 2017, 01:28:40 PM
The Prime Directive: Interesting conversation guys!  I pretty much agree, but I think that the context of its original creation is really fascinating in considering the Prime Directive.  It's essentially a complete and unambiguous rejection of colonialism, which was very much a live issue in the 1960s, with decolonization well underway all around the world.  The Prime Directive declares: 'even though we're technologically advanced and may be inclined to look down on other cultures, we do not have the moral authority to determine a civilization's fate.  We don't have the right to change or 'improve' a culture to suit our tastes or value.'  That's pretty interesting.

When you put it that way, I guess it is. The problem is when they go too far to the other end of the spectrum, and when they do, you get a bunch of Starfleet officers sitting around waiting for a fully inhabited planet to blow up because the poor huddled masses just aren't 'developed' enough for their liking. If the League ever tried that, they might as well just start being Supervillains.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on September 30, 2017, 04:00:28 PM
Like I said before,and what WB missed,is that JLA are not Avengers.They operate on a much bigger scale.  :)
Maybe we should start a Star Trek thread,since we end up derailing everything with ST discussions. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on September 30, 2017, 07:09:09 PM
And this is a problem how? :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on September 30, 2017, 09:50:31 PM
Kk, I agree, though I find the ethical questions raised by such settings fascinating and absolutely worth exploring.  I think Stargate: SG-1 actually did a surprisingly good job of developing this concept over the course of the show, as they intervened in various cultures in a fairly realistic (given the context) representation of how a real-world government would have acted, and things didn't always work out well.  This eventually made them more hesitant to intervene in internal matters for other worlds.  Of course, they were always willing, when possible, to aid cultures that were facing external threats.  The truth is that intervening in a different culture can be a really difficult balancing act, even without colonial aspirations.  Maybe you prop up a strong man to stave off the influence of an enemy nation and he turns into a monster, like the U.S. did with the Congo/Zaire during the Cold War.  You succeed in preventing a possible worse alternative on the large scale, but on the smaller scale, the one that matters most to the culture in question, it's plenty bad enough.  There are always consequences for such choices, and it can be hard to foresee them. 

This is where the fantasy element, the "heightened reality" of comics comes into play in this conversation.  The League have the wisdom to make the necessary calls, and in their world, being a better, brighter place, it usually works out.  That's an encouraging and inspiring thing.

HT, very, very true.  The League's 'natural' type of story is about big, existential threats, large scale and full of big ideas.

Hey, as long as my little project is prompting interesting discussion, I'm happy!  :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 01, 2017, 05:27:34 AM
SG-1,another staple of afterschool tv. :)
It was at its best when it keept thing low-key.Military-science team that explores new planets.Later on they start building starships and having huge battles in Earths orbit (that nobody notices),I lost interest.Proves that longetivity can be a curse.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 01, 2017, 01:48:54 PM
I actually really liked that element of the show, HT.  They didn't hold the show in artificial stasis, but they let the universe evolve logically.  The humans were out to find weapons and technology that could help them defend Earth, and over the course of the show, they did exactly that.  From abortive starts like retrofitting an alien glider that almost killed its pilots to eventually producing their big ships, it all made sense.  And they actually spent some time along the way with episodes about how they were able to keep their secrets too.  It certainly wasn't a perfect show, but they did a lot of good world building in it.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 01, 2017, 05:56:54 PM
If you want to think about it as a live action UFO adaptation. :)
I rewatched the first season recently and it holds up pretty well.My problem later on is that it went kinda too big.Too Star Trek,I guess?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 02, 2017, 02:51:14 AM
I imagine that's a matter of taste, but it seemed to me a logical progression.  That being said, the middle seasons are my favorites.  You know, it's clear they really had a great time making that show.  One of my favorite episodes is when they have to deal with the 'TV show,' Wormhole X-Stream, and the entire thing is basically a parody of Stargate, even making fun of Daniel leaving and returning and other foibles of the actual show.  Honestly, it's not necessarily one of the best sci-fi shoes of all time, but it's one of my favorites.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 02, 2017, 03:09:15 PM
And on another note, here is the newest Bronze Age post:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/into-the-bronze-age-june-1971-part-4/

We've got some really good comics in this batch!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on October 02, 2017, 10:38:19 PM
That was one of my favorite World of Krypton stories. I've often thought that at least one of the two protagonists was from Daxam, and much of the story hints that Krypton was some kind of artificial planet.

It has also been done before, including an episode of Twilight Zone. But it is still a good story.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on October 02, 2017, 10:53:11 PM
Gray Morrow drew the first Man-Thing story in Savage Tales. He later did paintings for SF book covers, including a lot of Perry Rodan covers (and Swampy makes a cameo on one). He had already done some great stuff for Warren, did the comic adaptations for Supergirl and Sheena (but don't hold that against him), a series called The Edge of Chaos which I enjoyed, and did the Sunday Tarzan strips that Go comics is reprinting.

He also did work on the original Saturday morning Spider-Man cartoon.

This is just a little of what the man did.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 09, 2017, 04:14:20 AM
Interesting theory, DG! 

Yeah, the basic setup has been done several times, but a stock plot isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Cool, I have heard his name, but I don't know a ton about him.  Thanks!

Well gents, here is the final post for June 1971, and it involves an Aquaman story!  Yay!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/10/07/into-the-bronze-age-june-1971-part-5/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 13, 2017, 06:55:12 PM
At least thee resolution to the whole Dolphin-men thing is pretty original.
Also,Superman styles himself after Fred from Scooby Doo?  :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 17, 2017, 03:52:39 PM
Yeah, you've got a lot of options when you're Superman.  ^_^

Apparently Fred was a fashion icon in the 70s.  There are ascots EVERYWHERE!  :P

Howdy folks, and welcome to another month of Bronze Age goodness!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/10/17/into-the-bronze-age-july-1971-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 17, 2017, 04:08:41 PM
Your not covering House of Secrets #92? :o
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on October 17, 2017, 08:14:14 PM
I can see why he wouldn't; it isn't really Swamp Thing's origin, although it was worked into the backstory of the continuing series. Maybe he'll touch upon it when he gets to Oct/Nov 1972...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 17, 2017, 08:26:43 PM
Okay,its not THE Swamp Thing,but I think its still interesting from a historical perspective.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 17, 2017, 11:57:46 PM
Interesting points, guys.  To be honest, I forgot about that landmark issue.  I'll have to think about whether or not to cover it.  I'm inclined not to since it is outside of my purview, but maybe I'll do it as a Halloween special.  Hmm!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on October 18, 2017, 02:38:27 AM
 :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on October 18, 2017, 04:40:36 AM
Interesting points, guys.  To be honest, I forgot about that landmark issue.  I'll have to think about whether or not to cover it.  I'm inclined not to since it is outside of my purview, but maybe I'll do it as a Halloween special.  Hmm!

DO IT! DO IT! DO-- {is shot}
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 18, 2017, 11:18:16 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/DTeJjYI.jpg)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 21, 2017, 09:42:07 PM
Haha, well, I'll definitely think about it!  :lol:

In the interim, here is another Bronze Age post to tide you over!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/10/21/into-the-bronze-age-july-1971-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 25, 2017, 02:50:08 AM
And another!  This one includes an issue of Green Lantern that I actually enjoyed!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/into-the-bronze-age-july-1971-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 26, 2017, 06:09:38 PM
Im sure the fact they are all wearing the same pin doesnt mean they are mindcontrolled...yep,they are.
Predictable,but okay.At least nobody makes a speech.
Giffen will later give us Scarlet Skier,which IMO worked better. :D
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 29, 2017, 07:37:12 PM
HT, ha, I hadn't ever heard of the Scarlet Skier.  That's funny! 

The story being predictable is less of an issue given how obviously satirical it is, so I'm willing to give that a bit of a pass.  As you said, nobody makes a speech...or compares anyone else to Hitler, so I'm calling it good.

Well folks, I've got another post for you, as well as a hint about something special in the wings!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/10/29/into-the-bronze-age-july-1971-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 30, 2017, 08:52:25 AM
I guess we see a prototype of Superman revenge squad.
About that Swamp Thing story;fun fact,Len Wein and Berni Wrightson later redid it in Bart Simpsons Treehouse of Horror #15: Squish Thing.
They were cool like that. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 30, 2017, 10:00:06 PM
Actually, it looks like the Revenge Squad far predates these jokers.  I didn't realize that, but apparently they're solidly Silver Age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_Revenge_Squad
At least those guys were generally more than just common gangsters!

I hadn't seen that, HT!  I'll have to keep an eye out for it.  They've been running the various Simpsons' Halloween episodes nonstop lately.  Maybe I'll catch it.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on October 31, 2017, 06:07:40 AM
Weird,I thought that was a Triangle era thing.
I meant the Treehouse comic.I actually have that issue.Somewhere.
(http://atomicjunkshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/SquishThing-e1505098093471.jpg)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on October 31, 2017, 12:54:17 PM
Haha, how cool!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 01, 2017, 06:45:56 AM
As promised, guys, a Halloween special!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/10/31/into-the-bronze-age-july-1971-special-edition/

Happy Halloween, all!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 10, 2017, 03:39:25 PM
Howdy guys, I finished up July 1971:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2017/11/09/into-the-bronze-age-july-1971-part-5/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on November 10, 2017, 05:03:40 PM
How oddly Silver age-ish.But this is the guy who started the Silver age,so...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 10, 2017, 11:55:13 PM
Haha, yeah, both of those stories were pretty nuts, but the weirdness with Don Rickles is in a whole new league.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on November 11, 2017, 12:58:38 AM
Another reason I've avoided DC: they incorporated Don Rickles - an unfunny, hate spewing, "truthfully and honestly insult someone and abuse the shield of doing it comedically" style comedian that was a hanger on to the Rat Pack - into their universe...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on November 11, 2017, 01:15:09 AM
I was reading them as they came out, and I thought Don kind of killed the action.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 11, 2017, 03:01:49 AM
I've never been a big fan of his either, DJ.

DG, he certainly does.  He sucks up time and energy that should have been devoted to the vastly more interesting plot that Kirby was actually developing.  The whole angle of Edge's connection to Intergang and Jimmy actually being involved in figuring that out is worth something.  Without Rickles, he might have even had space for the Legion to do something.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on November 11, 2017, 06:35:33 AM
Haha, yeah, both of those stories were pretty nuts, but the weirdness with Don Rickles is in a whole new league.
Honestly,I had to wiki the guy.Meaning this aged worst then parts of Bloom County.Or at least equaly so.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 22, 2018, 06:04:02 AM
Well guys, we've got a new year and a new Bronze Age post...a tad belated.  But I'm back from vacation and working on various FF/Comics related things again, so yay!

This post we've got a lot of Bat-materials, including the return of a classic villain!

Join me soon for one of the most famous comics of the Bronze Age!

Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: spydermann93 on January 23, 2018, 12:27:54 AM
YAY!!!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 23, 2018, 01:58:41 AM
Quit teasing and get writing!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on January 23, 2018, 03:03:02 AM
DG, Benton is all about the tease. Tease here, tease there...and sooner or latter you forget that he hasn't done anything but tease. ;-)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 24, 2018, 06:04:17 AM
Haha!  Who's a tease?
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/01/23/into-the-bronze-age-august-1971-part-3/

Check it out guys!  The notorious drug issue of GL/GA, as well as some other solid comics.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 24, 2018, 08:43:00 AM
Some ten years later Roy Thomas wrote a JLA/All Star Squadron/JSA crossover.Imagine how hard was that.Thou,he had 6 issues to work with.
After the last few years of every hack showing their personal politics down the readers throath,GL/GA doesnt look so heavy handed.Hindsight,I guess.Speaking if which,Flash dying and Supercrisis,thats going to be funny in 15 years.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 24, 2018, 04:40:26 PM
That issue of The Flash reminds me of the time the angel (no relation) showed up and made Flash re-do his origin... to balance the cosmic ledger or something.

No, no, believe me... there were some good stories in The Silver Age.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 24, 2018, 04:57:09 PM
Yeah HT, yeah, these events keep growing.  In just nine issues, Len Wein will add the Seven Soldiers of Victory to the usual JLA/JSA mix.  Though, I expect he's more capable of dealing with the extra load, as I think Wein is a naturally better writer than Friedrich. 

You know, this issue (and this run) certainly paved the way for preachiness in comics as well as greater maturity.  Like I said, it changed the medium for both better and worse!

Haha, DG, you mean this one? 
https://www.cbr.com/the-abandoned-an-forsaked-the-flash-got-his-powers-from-an-imp-from-another-dimension/
I'll never forget that story.  What a weird comic!  How wildly unnecessary!  Unfortunately, the Flash suffered from a few of these ridiculously unnecessary retcons, like when Iris suddenly discovers she's from the future...for some reason.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 24, 2018, 07:58:34 PM
Yeah... that's the one. Hey, wait a minute... imp from another dimension? I don't think Mopee returned to his home plane by saying "Eepom", did he?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 25, 2018, 10:44:37 PM
Depending on who you ask,either this GA/GL issue or Death of Gwen Stacy are considered as beginings of Bronze Age.Which probably says a lot more then I could.
On the other hand,nobody ever planed to deal with the fallout.And that remained a black spot for some 40 years.Actually,one of the few good things N52 did was to retcon Roy into a former alcoholic.IMO that worked better for the character.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 26, 2018, 02:43:42 AM
Did they retcon away the dead cat business? I've wondered who greenlit that sequence.

I was reading these comics as they came out. I've said before, you can't really understand the effect things like this had at the time... at least in the comics. Pre-internet, news like this spread at the speed of the US Postal System.

Guys and gals, I have had friends, family, and acquaintances O.D., get arrested, GET KILLED, and go to prison (I mean 25 years REAL time) because of drugs. I lost track of some because they kind of got "into" the drug culture and were never heard of again. I never could figure out why I didn't get into drugs too, other than it scared the umhmm out of me and I would rather spend my money on silly comics like Green Lantern/Green Arrow, Doc Savage reprints, and the occasional date with a girl. I understood a lot of what they had Roy say, because my father "figure" was always too busy to spend much time with me, especially after he left my mother for another woman (one of those tales I could tell). I don't know why it seemed so confusing at the time... did y'all have the same trouble growing up?

Here we have some slightly older men trying to figure out the reasoning behind the actions of some slightly younger men and explain it in a way that their older bosses would at least print... and if it sounds weird to you guys now, it was just as weird then. The simple fact is, no matter what anyone says nowadays about the reasons for the increase of drug abuse throughout the 60s and 70s at the time no one could explain.

Least of all me.

And what alcohol has done is even more complicated.

And often more tragic.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on January 26, 2018, 02:48:56 AM
Oi, leave me booze outta this! <clutches a vodka bottle to himself and whispers to it> It's okay, luv, they not going to put they hands on you...Dj is 'ere for ya...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 26, 2018, 07:39:53 AM
I assume that was retconed away.It probably still stands.BTW,Priest shows a flashback of JL with Martian Manhunter as a founding member so I guess Origin wouldnt really be canon.Or it is because everyone had their minds wiped at the time?

Also,there are plenty of reasons why Grells Green Arrow is the only Green Arrow.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on January 26, 2018, 01:09:47 PM
BTW,Priest shows a flashback of JL with Martian Manhunter as a founding member

FINALLY.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 26, 2018, 10:56:08 PM
Which would also mean the JLA has been active for some 20 years,considering The Fan remembers being saved by them when he was a kid and his 20-30 now...But a different topic.

Btw,next year has Superman #257,an issue that doesnt really answer the Krypton/Green Lanterns/Superman thing.Also,Guardians are jerks. 😀
And I remember way too much comic trivia.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on January 26, 2018, 11:38:00 PM
So does this mean the League's full history is more or less intact? Or is that just wishful thinking?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 27, 2018, 07:19:19 AM
It should be,but writers and editors arent really synchronised at DC.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 27, 2018, 05:04:25 PM
I always enjoy it when my posts prompt some interesting discussions!

Yeah... that's the one. Hey, wait a minute... imp from another dimension? I don't think Mopee returned to his home plane by saying "Eepom", did he?

Haha, yep, like Aquaman's Qwsp/Quisp (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Qwsp_(New_Earth)), Mopee is another of the dimensional imps that every hero apparently had to have to emulate Superman and Mr. Mxyzptlk.  However, Mopee is, without a doubt, both the weirdest and the lamest. 

So, Batman had Bat-Mite, but did any of the other original Leaguers produce their own imps?

Depending on who you ask,either this GA/GL issue or Death of Gwen Stacy are considered as beginings of Bronze Age.Which probably says a lot more then I could.
On the other hand,nobody ever planed to deal with the fallout.And that remained a black spot for some 40 years.Actually,one of the few good things N52 did was to retcon Roy into a former alcoholic.IMO that worked better for the character.

Those are both good milestones for the darkening of comics, but the things that O'Neil is doing in this issue he had started doing in his JLA run before.  You could honestly say that the Bronze Age begin with Denny O'Neil and not be too far off.  Either way, my little project has shown me that the seeds were planted long before this point.

Did they retcon away the dead cat business? I've wondered who greenlit that sequence.

Dead cat sequence?  (Wow, I just looked that up.  That is everything that is wrong with modern comics in one incredibly skeezy package.  I think I need a shower after reading that recap.)

I was reading these comics as they came out. I've said before, you can't really understand the effect things like this had at the time... at least in the comics. Pre-internet, news like this spread at the speed of the US Postal System.

Guys and gals, I have had friends, family, and acquaintances O.D., get arrested, GET KILLED, and go to prison (I mean 25 years REAL time) because of drugs. I lost track of some because they kind of got "into" the drug culture and were never heard of again. I never could figure out why I didn't get into drugs too, other than it scared the umhmm out of me and I would rather spend my money on silly comics like Green Lantern/Green Arrow, Doc Savage reprints, and the occasional date with a girl. I understood a lot of what they had Roy say, because my father "figure" was always too busy to spend much time with me, especially after he left my mother for another woman (one of those tales I could tell). I don't know why it seemed so confusing at the time... did y'all have the same trouble growing up?

Here we have some slightly older men trying to figure out the reasoning behind the actions of some slightly younger men and explain it in a way that their older bosses would at least print... and if it sounds weird to you guys now, it was just as weird then. The simple fact is, no matter what anyone says nowadays about the reasons for the increase of drug abuse throughout the 60s and 70s at the time no one could explain.

Least of all me.

And what alcohol has done is even more complicated.

And often more tragic.

Great commentary, DG, thanks for sharing your perspective, man.  Yeah, I suppose the emergent drug epidemic and the creeping realization that the promises of 60s counter-culture were empty created a really difficult puzzle to solve.  Clearly it's one we still haven't figured out. 

I think growing up (especially in the post-industrial world) is always difficult, complex, and confusing.  I had a relatively stable childhood, and I still had a hard time of it.  I imagine the person without issues from those years is rare indeed.  In terms of American manhood, well, there's a reason that Fight Club resonated with young men of my generation.  Fatherhood is, I imagine, a very tricky business.  Yet, I imagine that high school and younger is where a lot of those shots go home (I know this was the case for my own story).  I would think that by the time a boy got to college, if he had been given a relatively solid life before that point, the sudden disruption in family life wouldn't have been as traumatic.  After all, that is often part of the normal college experience. 

And attempting to address all of this in comics in 1971 was a very bold move.  We should definitely give O'Neil and Adams credit for that, however rough in places the result might be.

Oi, leave me booze outta this! <clutches a vodka bottle to himself and whispers to it> It's okay, luv, they not going to put they hands on you...Dj is 'ere for ya...

Haha!  You've insulted someone near and dear to DJ, DG.  :lol:


As for Martian Manhunter and the current League...well, as I said at the time, it is a crying shame that DC utterly squandered the potential of the New 52.  They had decades upon decades of wonderful stories to draw on.  They could have started at day 1 and recrafted the history of the League into a coherent whole that dealt with consistent themes and moved towards an established goal.  Instead, we get one poorly told origin and then immediately jump into the future, cutting the throat of their new continuity before they even got started.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 27, 2018, 05:35:20 PM
Like Snyder, they didn't want to do the whole history thing, they wanted to jump to something they were really interested in ("The Death of Superman" and "The Dark Knight Returns"), and leave the rest in tatters.

Of course, the first Conan movie smashed straight through "Tower of the Elephant", bounced off "Red Nails", scraped up against "A Witch Shall Be Born", and crashed in the middle of "Queen of the Black Coast".
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on January 27, 2018, 06:17:15 PM
This just makes me wonder how the MCU could have turned out if they pulled the same thing. Imagine if they started with Ironman and then a year later skipped straight to Avengers. And then moved right to Infinity War a year after that.

I mean, I get wanting to just skip ahead to when things get interesting. Sometimes people want to cut out the fat (as they see it,) and get right to the meat. But in a number of cases, the fat provides flavor and context. Without the fat, all you have is a thin, skinless mess that lacks substance. And it isn't always very appetizing.

This is especially true with comics. One of the things I really like about them is the history. Both Marvel and DC have decades of continuity and countless different titles and characters to their names, and when used right can make them feel that much more alive and in-depth. It can also give some great fuel for stories, and DC Post Crisis is a great example of that. JSA, Starman, Young Justice, Wally!Flash, even Suicide Squad to a lesser extent; all examples of books that use that wealth of history to their advantage and wouldn't have the same weight if they didn't have that well to draw from. (And I'm sure I've only scratched the surface.) But stripping that away does nothing but make it all that much more hollow.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 27, 2018, 07:18:34 PM
Well gents, as you continue discussing, why not enjoy some more Bronze Age goodness!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/01/27/into-the-bronze-age-august-1971-part-4/

DG, true, but the Conan movie actually created a great whole out of all of those pieces, crafting something that is, in some ways, more than the sum of its parts.  Add to that the fact that Conan's stories were largely episodic, with the character changing little between them, and the movie version, though a departure from the character, at least aims at something complete and significant.

Kk, you're absolutely right. This is part of what makes American superhero comics special.  This is the only metatext in human history (that we know of), which is a collected narrative over millions of pages, authored by hundreds of writers, illustrated by hundreds of artists, and composed over decades of time, yet all explicitly connected into a single, (supposedly) self-consistent universe.  The only things that comes remotely close are the myth or romance cycles that spring up around popular heroes like King Arthur, but even they are nowhere near as vast nor as intentionally self-consistent.  There is an unparalleled depth and texture to such a text. that is lost when you strip out history and only gesture at it.

Having the various characters share a universe and a history makes for a metatext that has more potential narrative power than the unconnected serial form, and I think that is born out by all of our own experiences with comics. There’s a reason we love DC or Marvel, and a large part of that has to do with the feeling of a universe created by continuity. The emotions that move us during our reading of comicsareshaped by what has come before, both within and without a particular book.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on January 27, 2018, 07:49:32 PM
Well gents, as you continue discussing, why not enjoy some more Bronze Age goodness!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/01/27/into-the-bronze-age-august-1971-part-4/

DG, true, but the Conan movie actually created a great whole out of all of those pieces, crafting something that is, in some ways, more than the sum of its parts.  Add to that the fact that Conan's stories were largely episodic, with the character changing little between them, and the movie version, though a departure from the character, at least aims at something complete and significant.

Kk, you're absolutely right. This is part of what makes American superhero comics special.  This is the only metatext in human history (that we know of), which is a collected narrative over millions of pages, authored by hundreds of writers, illustrated by hundreds of artists, and composed over decades of time, yet all explicitly connected into a single, (supposedly) self-consistent universe.  The only things that comes remotely close are the myth or romance cycles that spring up around popular heroes like King Arthur, but even they are nowhere near as vast nor as intentionally self-consistent.  There is an unparalleled depth and texture to such a text. that is lost when you strip out history and only gesture at it.

Having the various characters share a universe and a history makes for a metatext that has more potential narrative power than the unconnected serial form, and I think that is born out by all of our own experiences with comics. There’s a reason we love DC or Marvel, and a large part of that has to do with the feeling of a universe created by continuity. The emotions that move us during our reading of comicsareshaped by what has come before, both within and without a particular book.

Comic books are our mythology, or at least one of ours. Even more so than just King Arthur, they're for all intents and purposes the equivalent of a vast cosmological tapestry created by a collective mass of people over a long period of time; one that changes and shifts and grows with the people that tell it. Even the beginnings of both Marvel and DC in the Golden Age are equivalent to such a mythos; the early incarnations of these characters and stories before everyone started to hammer out the fine details and the more defining aspects of the universe and its' inhabitants got added into the cosmology. The big difference is that comics don't actually represent a belief system, (and if they do for someone, they should probably get themselves committed,) but they still do the next best thing. At their best, they inspire and instil certain values and beliefs within those who read them. Heroism, nobility, kindness, integrity, and more. Even if Superman isn't our Lord and Savior, he's still a bastion of morality and hope that inspires people to this day. Other heroes represent different values. Batman: Commitment and dedication. Wonder Woman: Peace, equality, and truth. Iron Man: The positive side of tech. Spiderman: With great power comes great responsibility. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

On top of that, both Marvel and DC are glorified hodgepodges, DC especially. Much like certain actual mythologies. Many of them started out as a disparate series of smaller religions before being absorbed and combined into larger ones, and Marvel and DC are no exception. Both companies have absorbed smaller ones into their framework, and while Marvel isn't as bad at this (though the Ultraverse still says high,) I'd say DC has at least seven other universes as part of its' makeup.* But better still, they've also absorbed actual mythologies. DC has the Greeks as a notable part of its' universe and Marvel has the Norse, and they still have a number of other mythologies in their verses besides. Both of them have taken bits and pieces from other originally separate works and grafted them onto themselves, creating something more grand and complex than either otherwise would have been. Which is mythology in a nutshell.

*For the record, DC has currently assimilated into its' little collective: Fawcett, Quality, Charlton, Milestone, Wildstorm, America's Best Comics, and Nedor by proxy. (Nedor's technically public domain, but they're also part of ABC, so they still count.)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 27, 2018, 08:07:55 PM
Also, originally there were All American Comics, Detective Comics, whatever company put out Superman and Action, and National, although they may have been "separate" for tax purposes or something. And I know that All Flash had some kind of weird copyright on it too (packager maybe?). The companies were "different", but kept swapping characters around until when I grew up the symbol said:

SUPERMAN

  DC

National

EC was absorbed and remained separate, and I remember that American Comics Group was some kind of sister company to DC, but it is pretty much forgotten except by old fogies like me.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 27, 2018, 09:13:06 PM
Very well said, and very true, Kk.  There's a reason they are described as a modern mythology, and you capture their importance well.  This also means that there is more at stake with these silly comic stories than might meet the eye.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 27, 2018, 11:00:23 PM
Again,just to toss out a few unrelated thoughts.
Legacy of Fourth World is a bit odd.Outside of Darkseid (blame Great Darkness Saga),everyone else falls into a grey not-entirely-forgotten zone.And sometimes serve as a supporting cast for Superman.And again oddly enough,nobody managed to add anything to it.Remember Sleeze or Takion?Ofc you dont.Or at least we all try to forget.
Also,Supermans greatest era was the 90's.And no,I dont care that he wore a mullet.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 27, 2018, 11:10:50 PM
On the topic of N52 Justice League,while the first arc goes big and cinematic and all that; they didnt really follow up on that momentum.You can tell Johns was phoning it in.Or at least,that his heart wasnt in it.
Would it have been better if they took the Ultimate Spiderman approach?Probably.But I guess they wanted something new.
But,lets face it,JL(A) was never a consistent title.You had flashes of greatness in a sea of mediocre.And the last great run for me was McDuffies.And even that had a crossover with Shadow Cabinet.For the record,Shadow Cabinet is my #1 most hated comic.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 02, 2018, 11:52:01 PM
HT, JLA has been inconsistent, but I feel like you could say that of most titles on this kind of timeline.  It had one of the more consistently great runs in 90s (when there weren't too many of those), after all. 

Well, the 4th World is also represented by Mr. Miracle, Barda, and Orion, who continue to hold a solid second string position in the DCU, despite the obscurity that swallowed the rest of the setting.  I do remember Takion.  What a weird choice, and how very incongruous he looked among the New Gods.

Well folks, it is time to close out August 1971.  Check out the final post on that month:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/02/02/into-the-bronze-age-august-1971-part-5/

Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 03, 2018, 08:06:57 AM
Actually,there were quite a few good runs in the 90's.Like I keep saying,it was Supermans greatest era,actually.For what its worth,DC avoided most of the Chromium Age excess.Sure,there were some EXTREME makeovers like Manhunter and Fate,but those were exceptions.Yes,Morrisons JLA was great,but after he left,its a downward spiral that reaches a absolute nadir in Claremont and Byrnes Tenth Circle.

We have an issue that predicted The Happening.And O'Neill doesnt preach about gun control.Weird.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on February 03, 2018, 03:39:12 PM
It had one of the more consistently great runs in 90s (when there weren't too many of those)

{twitch}

Ahem. No offense and you probably haven't read most of these, but... Mark Waid's Flash, Niel Gaiman's Sandman, John Ostrander's Spectre and Martian Manhunter, Alan Grant's L.E.G.I.O.N, Giffen and the Buam's Legion, James Robinson's Starman, Geoff John's JSA, Peter David's X-Factor and Hulk, Kurt Busiek's Thunderbolts and Avengers,  all of Generation X, most of the Milestone line, much of Valiant, and a hell of a lot more besides all want to say high. Yes, there was a ton of schlock in the 90's, but there was still a wealth of great material if you knew where to look.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 03, 2018, 11:14:41 PM
Similar to what I said.
Hitman by Ennis,Swamp Thing by Millar,Flash by Morrison and Millar,tail end of Hawkworld,entire triangle era of Superman,Kingdom Come,entire Vertigo line,League of Extraordinary Gentleman(personally,I liked the idea,but not the execution)...good part of Grells Green Arrow...I could go on,but you got the idea.
Its just that internet critics like to drag out Youngbloods or Venom Lethal Protector for some cheap laughs.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 04, 2018, 12:12:02 AM
Haha!  Fair enough, Kk.  I didn't mean to make you twitch.  :lol:  I suppose that I just forget about the good stuff amidst all the 90s EXTREME-ness. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 07, 2018, 03:35:00 PM
Also speaking of GL/GA,its funny how often the series gets dragged out in recent times to prove that "comics were always political". Yeah,thats not really the same as what we are getting today.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 09, 2018, 06:20:33 AM
Well, there's a school of thought that says 'everything is political,' and in a sense, it's true, insofar as everything that we create is a reflection of or a comment on the culture that it springs from, but there is a marked difference between works that are self-consciously political and those that aren't.

There's also a marked difference between editorial mandated political stances and those taken by creators, for what it's worth.

On a different note, let's start a new month of classic comics!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/02/09/into-the-bronze-age-september-1971-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on February 09, 2018, 11:52:16 PM
Oksner was a wonderful artist who did a lot of humor titles for DC, like Bob Hope, Jerry Lewis, and a bunch of other similar licensed characters, as well as Angel and the Ape. In later years he did Superman.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 10, 2018, 09:18:07 PM
@Bento Not quite what Im saying.Even if its hamfisted as it is,we could all agree that drugs are bad.IMO its impossible to compare that to the whinefest of entitled wankers that is todays Marvel.Nuances,I guess.
Later on there will be another set of backups,Superman The Secret Years,that dealt with Clarks journey from Superboy to Superman.Great stuff,actually.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 18, 2018, 05:27:52 PM
Howdy guys! I've posted a few different Bronze Age entries in the last few months.  Sorry I haven't kept up the releases here, but it's been a busy time.  I have some particularly interesting comics today!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/04/18/into-the-bronze-age-september-1971/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on April 18, 2018, 09:28:01 PM
The Sand Thing saga did end rather abruptly. I wonder if the powers that were told O'Neil he had X number of issues to make the changes... I think it could have used a few more pages anyway. The "Kryptonite No More" aspects hung around for awhile, the other changes kind of just got forgotten as I remember.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on April 26, 2018, 04:31:42 PM
I don't know, DG.  That's an interseting question.  I sort of feel like he just didn't have a complete idea and was making up portions of it as he went along.  I also think that O'Neil is just under the delusion that anyone else cares about I-Ching, like a parent who thinks their unexceptional kid is the center of the universe. 

Well, how about the end of the Don Rickles fever dream?  Ohh, and capstone for September 1971 one as well?:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/04/26/into-the-bronze-age-september-1971-part-6/

Here is some more Bronze Age goodness.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on April 27, 2018, 07:51:17 AM
Forgot to mention it all this time...DC decides to capture some Marvel magic,so they get Jack Kirby...and then give him Jimmy Olsen,Supermans Pal.Why not Superman?Were they afraid of that he would change too much?
Also,on an earlier thing,Superman will later get a Roman-themed rival in Alpha Centurion.Whos been missing for some 20 years,but I doubt anyone cares.Still,far from the worst thing that came out of Zero Hour.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 01, 2018, 02:50:59 AM
Well, clearly given the retouching they did on his work with Supes and Jimmy, DC did not want its flagship character actually handled by the King.  According to legend, he got Jimmy Olsen because the powers that be insisted he do an existing title, as well as his new books, and he said "give me your lowest selling book and I'll make it your highest selling one."

Interesting, I wonder if someone like the design of the Super Centurion fellow.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on May 01, 2018, 03:47:41 AM
There is an Alpha Centurion by Dreamerzoid.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on May 03, 2018, 05:52:39 PM
Granted,Stuart Immoens design wasnt half bad.But there is a thousand supporting characters attached to Superman,and some just get phased out.Wonder what Scorn is up to these days...
Speaking of Kirby,next year sees the debut of Etrigan.CCA was loosening,and soft satanism was the counter culture of the early 70's. :)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 03, 2018, 07:04:23 PM
Cool, DG!

Yeah, HT, I'm really looking forward to that, but you're right.  The appearance of Etrigan does point to a further loosening of the CCA's restrictions.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on May 03, 2018, 07:12:39 PM
For reference,soon after that Marvel tried to make Son of Satan (or rather son of an otherdimensional ruler pretending to be Satan,but that lacks a certain ring) a thing.And they have been trying ever since...
Also,Im pretty sure that counterculture gave birth to wacky Christian groups and their war on tabletop games and children cartoons.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on May 03, 2018, 08:40:04 PM
Yeah, the Son of Satan thing has just never really worked, has it?  That one seems a little out there for my tastes.

I don't know; I feel like the war on D&D and such was more a product of the 80s.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: kkhohoho on May 04, 2018, 12:01:12 AM
Yeah, the Son of Satan thing has just never really worked, has it?  That one seems a little out there for my tastes.

I don't know; I feel like the war on D&D and such was more a product of the 80s.

On the other hand, Son of Satan ended up being a part of the Classic Defenders, so that alone makes him worth having around in my book.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Deaths Jester on May 04, 2018, 12:30:12 AM
The D&D equals Satanism/cults view started in the mid 70s but it didn't really gain nationwide coverage/dispersion until the 80s. You could say, that this unfound and idiotic view was part of the early creation-era of what we now know as the Evangelical Movement.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on May 04, 2018, 04:21:06 AM
There was a Hellstrom series back in the 90's.Its something of Hellblazer-lite.Which again,proves that they tried everything.
But the industry never really grasped the difference between "a lasting franchise" and "it lasted for 20-40 issues a few decades ago".
Loosening of CCA in 1971 caused both DC and Marvel to shovel out tons of tame horror title.From the whole bunch only Tomb of Dracula,Swamp Thing and Ghost Rider really had any staying power.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 18, 2018, 05:15:52 AM
Howdy guys!  For those of y'all who are interested, I was able to get back to my Into the Bronze Age feature and have put a few out.
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/09/26/into-the-bronze-age-october-1971-part-1/
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/10/12/into-the-bronze-age-october-1971-part-2/
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/10/29/into-the-bronze-age-october-1971-part-3/
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/11/16/into-the-bronze-age-october-1971-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on November 18, 2018, 06:58:20 AM
I cant really say anything that wasnt said already about the GL/GA,but for an understanding,liberal guy,Oliver acts like a dick here.His first reaction is to kick his "son" out.I hope this doesnt affect their relationship for the next 40 years.
Humans are the real monsters only works to a point in a fictional universe with vampires,zombies and brain eating aliens.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 18, 2018, 01:46:30 PM
Yeah, on the one hand, there's a certain amount of schadenfreude to seeing the ridiculously self-righteous Ollie from the past several issues completely fail at being a decent human being, but on the other, it's pretty darn nasty.  And yes, the biggest problem with this story isn't the story itself, but what will come afterward because O'Neil didn't bother to heal the wounds he inflicted.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 25, 2018, 09:47:56 PM
Howdy folks, here's a new Into the Bronze Age for them as cares:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/into-the-bronze-age-november-1971-part-1/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on November 25, 2018, 10:40:58 PM
So he gathered a cult to help him collect scrap which he then recycled into a rocket?Im not sure if thats stupid or secretly brilliant.  :lol:
Yeah,going in and out of Kandor never seems to be a problem.IIRC Scorn used the same trick of tailgating Superman out.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on November 25, 2018, 11:43:07 PM
Haha, yeah, it's not the most efficient master plan...

See, this Kandor thing just raises all kinds of questions!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on November 26, 2018, 07:24:38 PM
That Kandor was something like Cynosure meets Mega City One.I miss the triangle years,I really do.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on November 26, 2018, 08:09:29 PM
I don't have a copy of the original story at hand, but as I remember, Superman had enlarged all the cities Brainiac had stolen except for Kandor, and there was one charge in the enlarging machine left. Supes was going to enlarge Kandor and sacrifice himself (he was shrunk too), and suddenly a rocket from the bottle city smacked into the button on the machine enlarging Superman. Then, that was it... The Kandorians were stuck at a microscopic size. This, of course, didn't last. Somehow, the Superman Emergency Squad was able to enlarge themselves to about 6", and individuals were able to come and go for years, shrinking (For Nightwing and Flamebird stories), or growing for enemies (like Black Flame). I'm sure there were "explanations" as to why they couldn't just enlarge everyone in Kandor, even one at a time, but at this point I don't remember.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 09, 2019, 01:42:32 AM
Interesting stuff, DG!  I wonder what the heck their explanation was.  I keep hoping someone will comment on the blog and enlighten me.

Speaking, there's a new post out:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2019/01/08/into-the-bronze-age-november-1971-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 12, 2019, 10:16:43 PM
Here's another one, featuring some more 4th World fun:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2019/01/12/into-the-bronze-age-november-1971-part-3/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 13, 2019, 01:50:57 AM
Your analysis of the second story in The Forever People is interesting; I enjoyed "Tales of Asgard" a lot more than I did the soap opera that made up the first part of a Thor comic.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 13, 2019, 01:54:10 AM
Indeed!  The Tales of Asgard strip was some of the best Thor stories and generally awesome worldbuilding. 
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 13, 2019, 06:41:28 AM
On the Batman part,writers like Tom King cant figure out serious doesnt mean mopey and suicidal.
10+ years ago he was at least droping Bond one Loners and it seemed he ENJOYED being Batman.
And Im still operating on a basis that 10 years ago was the late 90's. 😑
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 13, 2019, 07:05:39 PM
Ha, true.  Serious doesn't have to mean depressing.  This is a joyful medium, and creators do best when they remember that.  Of course, Batman lends himself to darker stories better than most, but look at the best of all Bat-worlds, Batman:TAS.  That could do maudlin, introspective, brooding, and yet, Batman still had a dry sense of humor and had moments of happiness.

Also, ha, I know what you mean about feeling like the 90s were only a decade ago!  How has it been twenty years?!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 13, 2019, 07:25:35 PM
At worst he was a cool action hero,but we went from dropping one liners to "I thought about killing myself but instead I dress up as a bat and look ridiculous."
Actual Tom King monologue.Which you probably want to read in Will Arnet's voice.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 13, 2019, 07:44:24 PM
Well, I'd say that cuts right to the core of the character.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2019, 09:48:43 PM
Howdy folks, here's another Bronze Age blog:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2019/01/16/into-the-bronze-age-november-1971-part-4/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 16, 2019, 11:08:55 PM
Actually,Deep Six fought Aquaman and Koryak once.Possibly a few more times.
Dan Turpin was a supporting character in Superman titles and the Superman TAS (as you mentioned),But I dont think we saw him in a while.Since Final Crisis?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 25, 2020, 02:33:57 AM
Howdy guys, after a long, LONG delay, I'm back with more Into the Bronze Age!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/into-the-bronze-age-november-1971-part-5/

I'm covering the penultimate issues of November 1971, which puts me almost at the right month, just years later.

HT, here's an equally long delayed reply, ha!: Right, I've seen that appearance of the Deep Six during the PAD run, but it's just one story arc, and then they show up in the background of one scene in a big fight during the Sub-Diego run.  I'm pretty sure that's it, though.  What a waste!  As for Dan Turpin, I don't really follow the Superman books, so I couldn't say, but I certainly haven't heard anything about him since the cartoon.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Silver Shocker on December 25, 2020, 03:28:58 AM
Ah, yes, Dan "Terrible" Turpin. No doubt you remember him from the cartoon (his final scene in the show may well be the single most unforgettable moment in the entire show), but his role in Final Crisis is actually rather fascinating (then again, it was Final Crisis, one of the strangest stories in the long history of strange that is Grant Morrison's comics career)

The New Gods and Darkseid and his ilk in that story were....for some reason, being reincarnated on Earth in human form and/or possessing human bodies as hosts for their rebirth (it was a Grant Morrison story, so things were not as clear as they could be) and Turpin was actually the host body for Darkseid himself. Quite an interesting twist.

According to the DC wiki, Turpin died during Final Crisis, encountering the Black Racer. I don't remember it myself (it's been too long) but I'm sure that's true.

Late to the party on Ollie in the famous drug story, but yeah, Ollie really was a jerk in that story. Give me the JLU version any day.

"Just call me Cupid son, I never miss."

That joke worked better before they created a GA villain named Cupid who was a psychotic lovestruck stalker. Or maybe it's funnier now?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 25, 2020, 05:16:35 AM
Well, that sounds quite odd, and yes, quite Morrison-y. 

Yeah, the JLU version of Ollie is, as with most things, pretty much perfect.  Man, yeah, GA's portrayal in the 'Hard Traveling Heroes' arc is often pretty terrible, but that story may be one of the worst bits.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Silver Shocker on December 25, 2020, 05:46:46 AM
Indeed. I just finished rewatching the entire JLU incarnation of the show on Canadian reruns recently (you will be unsurprised to learn it holds up exceptionally well) and what I really appreciate about Ollie is that unlike Flash, he's comedy relief often, but never at his own expense. He's not a buffoon, a blowhard, or a moron. As I've said before, I hate when writers make Hawkeye a moron, and GA's very similar in that regard. I like both characters when they're cocky, but very competent and wise.

In the comics, even many of the good ones apparently, Ollie seems to come off as quite stupid.

More specific to that comic storyarc: poor Roy. He seems to be the Jessie Pinkman of the superhero world. One of the most unlucky poor souls in the whole genre. Terrible stuff seems to happen to him an alarming number of times (with "bad writing" often being a repeat offender).
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on December 25, 2020, 06:52:57 AM
He burns the drug out of his hands. 🤣

I rewatched JL/JLU last year and it still holds up. Also,most memorable version of Royal Flush Gang ever.

Turpin was a big supporting character back during the Triangle era. Superman titles all shared an additional numbering,printed in a triangle on the cover,so there is the name. This lasted from sometimes after the John Byrne reboot to 2000/2001. Good times.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on December 28, 2020, 09:02:34 PM
Well folks, here is the end of my coverage of comics from November 1971.  Enjoy!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2020/12/28/into-the-bronze-age-november-1971-part-6/

I rewatch JLU with some regularity, as it's about my favorite show of all time, so I'm definitely not surprised to hear it holds up well!  The first season (JL) is a little rough, but man it is excellent overall!

SS, yes, and all of Roy's bad luck starts with that story, which is perhaps the greatest problem with it - the fact that O'Neil put the character through that wringer and then abandoned him.

HT: Interesting, I didn't know that.  Thanks for sharing it!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 04, 2021, 05:54:00 AM
Well guys, it's a new year, and that seems like the perfect occasion for a new Bronze Age post!:
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2021/01/03/into-the-bronze-age-december-1971-part-1/

Some fun stuff in this one!
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 04, 2021, 08:57:57 AM
O'Neill and Adams do a great job,as usual.
I think killing people was okay for the censors ar long as it was a laser gun?
Androids thing reminded me of an 80's Outsiders issue where a guy called Ghetto-Blaster (really) got a whole costume/power armor with sound powers and went around destroying buildings in an effort to find 200$ he hid earlier. How is any of this economically viable?
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Silver Shocker on January 05, 2021, 07:47:48 AM
I think killing people was okay for the censors ar long as it was a laser gun?

It certainly seemed to be the case for Star Wars: The Clone Wars.

Quote
Androids thing reminded me of an 80's Outsiders issue where a guy called Ghetto-Blaster (really) got a whole costume/power armor with sound powers and went around destroying buildings in an effort to find 200$ he hid earlier. How is any of this economically viable?
To quote Family Guy: "HOW CAN YOU AFFORD THESE THINGS?"
Admittedly, that's probably one of the single most common oddities in the history of fiction, and one that people are (or were) apparently just expected to roll with.
There's an episode of Batman: The Animated Series where the Joker is living in an apartment building and is strapped for cash, yet in other episodes has, for example, a robot that looks like a clown.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on January 05, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
I can see Joker having ups and downs in his career.
I mean,if you have money for robots and bombs,why do you need to rob a bank? Okay,its revenge this time,but in general...not economically viable.
There was that time in Mark Millars Spiderman when Scorpion reveals that the Illuminati are bankrolling all the supervillains,but that's too meta of an explanation IMO.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 05, 2021, 06:34:50 PM
Haha!  Yeah, the common question is, why don't most supervillains just patent their amazing inventions and what-have-you?  A lot of them would be rich!  To be fair, though, I remember reading something interesting about criminals a while back.  On average, they make less than people working a steady job, even at minimum wage, but they carry on for a variety of reasons.  For many, it's all about the dream of getting rich quick and the illusion of freedom.  I suppose you could apply the same logic to supervillains.  In fact, some particularly good/insightful stories, like Astro City: The Tarnished Angel have played with those concepts.

HT, I wonder if you're right about the laser gun being a factor.  Of course, we're already into the days of the CCA loosening things up.  I wonder...
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: stumpy on January 05, 2021, 07:07:01 PM
Just to pile on the econ discussion here, I remember a change in my thinking about these things as I was reading comics as a teenager. It was both a realization of how unrealistic some criminal activities were and also an appreciation of the value of some plot devices to add a touch of realism to something otherwise unrealistic.

For example, I eventually got old enough to realize that some technology/devices/gadgets/etc. would be really expensive, at least in the scope of an average person's budget. At that point, all of these plot lines where some random down-on-his-luck burglar used portable lasers to break into a house and had a robot-driven getaway vehicle were complete nonsense. No one who has millions of dollars of cutting-edge tech is stealing televisions for a living.

On the other hand, comics eventually made an effort to weave that aspect of things into the storyline. The new plot wasn't that Joe CantTieMyShoes is inventing great tech and using it to steal microwave ovens. It's that Marvello McGenius is inventing that tech and either selling it to criminal gangs who distribute it to a network of rogues who use it, or McGenius is selling it to other supervillains for their use. And, usually, even if the economics still doesn't quite pan out, it's part of some larger scheme to test and refine the technology for later use in a more nefarious plan or at least to gain control over a larger criminal enterprise. That's not to say that everything made perfect sense now, but at least there was a rationale that more-or-less fit in the context of comic books.

BTW, this whole discussion reminds me of the random loot in some games like Neverwinter Nights, where a rain barrel in the Beggar's Nest might have a pile of gold or (conversely) a mansion's locked fancy chest with a 500 gp trap might be safeguarding a 3 gp bottle of ale or a 12 gp copper necklace.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on January 05, 2021, 07:13:34 PM
"Joe CantTieMySHoes", ha!  That cracked me up! :roll:

Great stuff, Stumpy.  Yeah, I appreciate those touches too.  That kind of attention to detail makes a story more viable for me, though I don't mind a fair amount of whimsy.  I love random costumed gangs with gimmicks running around the universes.  But yeah, full-on super-tech stuff is crazy for a random burglar to have up his sleeve!

Ha!  Yeah, I know exactly what you mean about those RPGs.  This is something that has driven me crazy since randomized loot became the norm after the Black Isle games.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Silver Shocker on January 08, 2021, 10:01:32 AM
Haha!  Yeah, the common question is, why don't most supervillains just patent their amazing inventions and what-have-you?  A lot of them would be rich!  To be fair, though, I remember reading something interesting about criminals a while back.  On average, they make less than people working a steady job, even at minimum wage, but they carry on for a variety of reasons.  For many, it's all about the dream of getting rich quick and the illusion of freedom.  I suppose you could apply the same logic to supervillains.  In fact, some particularly good/insightful stories, like Astro City: The Tarnished Angel have played with those concepts.

TVtropes has a great name for this exact trope: "Cut Lex Luthor a Check."  ^_^ Doctor Octopus tried that once, but it didn't really go anywhere.

Quote
There was that time in Mark Millars Spiderman when Scorpion reveals that the Illuminati are bankrolling all the supervillains,but that's too meta of an explanation IMO.

I read that story arc, years ago, but I don't remember the details. I do like some interests of worldbuilding in the "Heroic Age" along those lines.  We have the Tinkerer, and Obediah Stane and Justin Hammer supplying tech-based villains with their tech, The Scalpal, a seldom-seen doctor who specifically treats supervillains, the street drug Mutant Growth Hormone, which can grant new powers to people, Roxxon Oil, who routinely have supervillains on their payroll, and the Power Broker, who supplies superpowers to aspiring villains (and sometimes good guy characters) as a kind of black market business. Over at DC, there were Batman storylines in the post-Flashpoint era that featured people who were permanently harmed, wounded, or had suffered brain damage as a result of violent encounters with Batman and his allies, who banded together to form a villain group out for revenge.

Quote
HT, I wonder if you're right about the laser gun being a factor.  Of course, we're already into the days of the CCA loosening things up.  I wonder...

I've always found the concept of censorship and content restrictions, and all things related to it, strangely and intensively fascinating. One of my favorite examples comes from a Dilbert comic strip where a police officer fired a bullet out of a donut.  :roll:

Since then, I've found that modern comics have turned into a kind of "wild west" where they're largely limited only to their personal preferences and how much they think they can get away with before courting scrutiny and public backlash, which is how we get so much content these days (in comics) that seems to flit into "edgelord" territory willy nilly like it's no big thing.

Comics and other mediums have been trying to work around censorship for years, with lots of interesting results.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: daglob on January 08, 2021, 10:43:03 PM
Regarding comic book logic: there is a web comic available through GoComics these days, called The Last Mechanical Monster, which follows the mad genius who created The Mechanical Monsters from the Fleischer Superman cartoon after he is released from prison, and I believe one of the other characters asks him why didn't he patent all his work and just sit back and wait for the money to roll in. He has no answer (the real answer is known to anyone who reads Girl Genius: he wanted to show them; show them all!)
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: BentonGrey on February 05, 2021, 02:56:56 AM
Man, I need to check that out, DG!  Ha, that sounds cool. 

Well gents, I found some time to do the next Bronze Age post, so here we go, including the famous Green Lantern/Green Arrow #87!
https://bentongrey.wordpress.com/2021/02/04/into-the-bronze-age-december-1971-part-2/
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: HarryTrotter on February 05, 2021, 07:08:01 AM
Well,Creeper is more like Joker,but heroic.
Stepfather- You come to me on my wives daughter wedding day...
John Stewart will continue to be the reserve/Earth's GL for a while.Filling in for Hal in the 80's for a long stretch after Hal quits. Until Cosmic Odyssey.
Green Arrow did become a mayor some 25-30 years later.
Title: Re: Into the Bronze Age
Post by: Silver Shocker on February 05, 2021, 05:48:43 PM
As some of you may remember, I met Neal Adams at the comic shop I used to go to, and he was a fantastic guest there as he was in a much better mood there than at a convention where other creators got more attention. He gave several incredibly cool anecdotes, including one about the creation of John Stewart.

The first time around was a fine recap, and I tracked it down on here, so I've simply copied and pasted it:

Quote
He gave a very long and very funny anecdote about pitching John Stewart to DC editor Julie Schwartz, saying that instead of the "blond-haired, white high school phys-ed teacher" Guy Gardner, they should have an Asian or black character as the next GL (comparing this to the diversity in the Olympics). According to him someone involved (it was either Schwartz, Denny O'neal or a marketing guy, I can't remember) came up with the name "Lincoln Washington" which Adams said sounded like a slave name. He then, when prompted to name the character instead, pulled "John Stewart" out of the air as a real name. He made a quick joke that he had no idea that would later be the name of a late night comedian. He also took a shot at Hal Jordon being the GL in the movie instead of John Stewart, referencing children's familiarity with the character from the Justice League cartoon (though he didn't mention the cartoon by name).

As the JL cartoon was very much a gateway show for me for a lot of great DC characters, and John was certainly one of them. I'll probably always compare any other iteration to the Phil Lemar version, and I view his bald head and beard in JLU as being similar to Benjamin Sisco from Star Trek Deep Space nine having the same - showing the passage of time and how these characters have changed and developed as their stories go on.

I can enjoy stories with Hal, but I'll always lament the reduced roles John and Kyle got in the time since I got into DC's content. But I'll always be happy that the vast sweeping nature of the GL Corp and its narrative will ensure that characters like John, Kyle, Jessica Cruz, Simon Baz and yes, even Guy, will have a place in DC's content.