http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/10/28/marvel-confirms-movies-for-black-panther-captain-marvel-more?utm_campaign=fbposts&utm_source=facebook
QuoteMarvel boss Kevin Feige is holding court at a big announcement event right now in Los Angeles, where he has already unveiled the dates and titles for a bunch of upcoming Marvel films. And they are amazing.
New titles to be confirmed include Black Panther, Captain Marvel (the Carol Danvers version), The Inhumans, and Avengers: Infinity War, Part 1 and Part 2.
Additionally, Cap 3 and Thor 3 both have new titles in Captain America: Civil War and Thor: Ragnarok, as well as confirmed release dates along with Doctor Strange and Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Check it out:
November 3, 2017...Black Panther.
July 6, 2018... Captain Marvel.
November 2, 2018... The Inhumans.
Avengers: Infinity War, Part 1: May 4, 2018
Avengers: Infinity War, Part 2: May 3, 2019
Captain America 3 is now Captain America: Civil War and arrives on May 6, 2016.
Doctor Strange is now confirmed and has a date at November 4, 2016.
Guardians of the Galaxy 2 will hit on May 5, 2017.
Thor 3 is now called Thor: Ragnarok and is scheduled for July 28, 2017.
Black Panther and Captain Marvel! Excellent, particularly that she's going to be Captain, rather than Miss! Infinity War 2 parter! A lot of recent rumours were on the money.
Damn Jey. You beat me to it. But you forgot to add something. I'll add it in the appropriate thread though.
BTW, I do have to say I am more partial to "Miss" and and do miss the days of either other Marvel's Captain Marvels, but to each her own. It's neither here, nor there.
I just can't even. I couldn't be more excited to go to the movies.
Woot! Teaser to Infinity War!
http://collider.com/thanos-infinity-war-video-avengers/
Good stuff! Looking forward to pretty much everything announced but really curious on how they pull off Civil War.
This is pretty exciting. Civil War and Infinity War are the highlights for me. I can't imagine a world where I don't see those in theatres.
Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Doc Strange, and Inhumans are the question marks for me. I'm not huge on any of those characters so it will really depend how they handle the movies if I go to see them at the cinema. Still great to see Marvel expanding their universe.
This is a very, very interesting list. Some of this we've heard before, though now we have it confirmed. I'm particularly curious about how the Inhumans movie might take shape. Doctor Strange and Black Panther both have the potential to be really awesome. I think the only one of these that doesn't really interest me is the Captain Marvel movie, if it really is Carol Danvers. I've just never known or cared too much about her, and I rather wish it was the classic Captain Marvel, as I really like that character. His story is one that would work particularly well as a movie, methinks. Still, the fact that the worst thing I can say about this is that one of the movies announced doesn't completely thrill me is just absolutely incredible!
I'm super excited about Infinity War!
I was a kid of the 80's and Marvel movies then were...well * rubs elbow back and forth on desk *. Needless to say this era of superhero live-action is mind blowing.
Urg. This is the kind of thing I keep talking about:
http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/4-reasons-last-weeks-marvel-announcement-might-destroy-them/
I wonder if the morons at Cracked ever get tired of being proven wrong about the imminent collapse of the superhero "bubble."
Every new piece of news leads them to pontificate about how such and such is totally going to destroy the superhero movie genre. Bah.
I know what you mean, Benton. Not only that, but I wouldn't even categorize all of Marvel's films as 'superhero' movies at this point. Take Guardians of the Galaxy - what does it have in common with most superhero movies? Almost nothing. It's space opera, and it's awesome. Diversity of genre (or subgenre) and quality are sure roads to staying popular.
Well everyone knows that having comics come out on a regular basis, and having lots of them to choose from, are what killed comics. People hate having lots of fun escapist entertainment that they can rely on coming out regularly. :doh:
I think that would be the sarcasm emote...
Meanwhile each superhero movie that comes out only grows in popularity... I don't believe these critics know what they are talking about.
This news is very exciting. The larger story is very intriguing. I can not wait for each and every one of these to come out.
I believe I am most excited about Captain Marvel. I know many would like to see Katee Sackhoff, but my preference is Yvonne Strahovski. Both would be an excellent Carol Danvers.
I am least excited about Inhumans, but Marvel has plenty of time to change my mind... They did with Guardians.
There are a lott of rumors,but still nothing official about Thunderbolts?I mean come on,everything else gott a movie...
In order to justify Thunderbolts, they have to have established the villains-turned-heroes as antagonists in other films, otherwise you lose a lot of what made thunderbolts interesting in the first place. Plus, part of the origins of the Thunderbolts are that they happened at a time where all the other heroes weren't around... meaning the world latched onto them in place of the missing heroes. Even if thunderbolts is in the cards (and I hope it is, because I love the original series) it'll be waaaaay down the line.
I actually believe Marvel is prepping a Tbolts film for Phase 4. There are signs. Zemo is rumoured to be in Civil War. Crossbones has a multi-film deal. Andy Serkis is likely playing Klaw who does have a connection to Songbird. I wouldn't be shocked if Moonstone was the villain of Captain Marvel. Hawkeye could use a bigger role in a film. I think Thunderbolts is a very real possibility down the line.
James Gunn did say he would like to do T-bolts movie,and Marvel did say they are going to consider it if GotG does good. And all heroes missing requirement isnt that hard to acomplish,possibly after Avengers 3?
P.S There is a lott of fan-casting around the internet,so here is the one I liked but is almost impossible now.
http://ifanboy.com/articles/comic-book-casting-the-thunderbolts-movie/ (http://ifanboy.com/articles/comic-book-casting-the-thunderbolts-movie/)
You probably know this by now,but Daniel Bruhl will be Baron Zemo.Nice...
I was browsing IMBD the other day,and I noticed 2 projects set for next year,namely X-force and Punisher.So is that real?
X-force is for sure, but I hadn't heard about a new Punisher film. But then, I don't like the Punisher in general, so I'm not exactly the most reliable source of information.
I don't know if the Punisher can translate well into a movie and still have it's "thing". A Punisher movie would be a basic shoot'em up type move. I think it may be better as a series like DD on Netflix.
A listing on IMDB is in no way an accurate source of news. Now, these may turn out to be accurate, but just because it's on IMDB doesn't make it true. They'll create entries entirely based on rumours.
^Thats kinda why Im sceptical about it.Probably not true.
Ryan Reynolds' official Deadpool costume reveal
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/waaMF7C.jpg)
Best comic based movie costume? I think so. Also heard that they're gonna use CGI for his eyes so they could mimic what he does in the comics.
A Deadpool movie will have a lot of violence in it so what do you think it's going to be rated? R? PG-13? Also if they are going to use CGI for the eyes, then I'm expecting it's going to have humor in it too. I hope he breaks the 4th wall in the movie too.
If the Captain Marvel movie is anyone other than Mar-Vell or Carol Danvers, I'll be giving it a pass. And personally, I don't care for Carol's costume as Captain Marvel, so hopefully it will translate better to film....or be completely different.
The Deadpool costume is perfect. I'm actually suspicious that Deadpool might end up being the most accurate Marvel movie.
GhostMachine, Captain Marvel will star Carol Danvers.
So... I came across something in my constant toy searches that's... interesting. New images just hit the net of Tamashi Nation's SH Figuarts Avengers figures, along with a listing for the Iron Man "Mark 45." I initially dismissed this as being a typo (Most of the images are of the Mark 43, the main armor we've been seeing in the film) but there's one image in there... a comparison shot of the Mark 43 alongside another Iron Man armor I haven't seen before. If it's a comic based one that I just happened to overlooked that's fine, but the whole "Mark 45" thing makes me a bit suspicious.
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/Y7XHfNr.jpg)
I didn't know Figuarts did Western superheros. Their models are gorgeous--I may have to check that out.
They've been doing figures for the marvel films for awhile... They've just stuck to Iron Man armors for the most part
Ya, they did some Injustice stuff as well.
ok guys, back to MARVEL MOVIES!!! :D
Well, back to my original point, is that armor something from the comics (the last armor I saw him in was back post-AvX, which was the black/gold thing) or could it be the MCU's Mark 45 like the listing indicates? We saw Tony upgrade during Avengers 1, and it wouldn't be that great a stretch that the Mark 43 gets compromised somehow during the film and has to be replaced. If you figure Mark 44 is Hulkbuster, the 45 would logically be the next armor in line.
Any news on the X-force?Anything?
Oh,yeah Morena Baccarin will play Copycat in Deadpool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUEkqZxLyrg
Ryan Reynolds addresses "PG13" rating for Deadpool.
Now this whole Deadpool movie got me thinking.....
Do we really need Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool. He mostly wears a mask, so you're not going to see his face. It could be anybody in a Deadpool suit. When DP takes off his mask, his face is fubar, so you STILL won't be able to tell it's Reynolds, so why was it so important that he plays Deadpool??
Don't get me wrong, I like the actor and I liked him as DP in the Wolverine movie, but fanboys made it seems that they couldn't have a DP movie without Ryan Reynolds.
Quote from: JeyNyce on April 02, 2015, 06:42:44 PM
Now this whole Deadpool movie got me thinking.....
Do we really need Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool. He mostly wears a mask, so you're not going to see his face. It could be anybody in a Deadpool suit. When DP takes off his mask, his face is fubar, so you STILL won't be able to tell it's Reynolds, so why was it so important that he plays Deadpool??
Don't get me wrong, I like the actor and I liked him as DP in the Wolverine movie, but fanboys made it seems that they couldn't have a DP movie without Ryan Reynolds.
Let me put it this way.. FOX wouldn't be doing a Deadpool without Ryan Reynolds rallying for the version fans wanted. FOX executives didn't care which actor played him or if it was the comic version or Barakapool (swords in the arms??!?!?!?!?!? SWORDS?!?!?) they just wanted the profits. After X-Men The Last Stand and X-Men Origins: Wolverine fell on their faces without a leader behind their Marvel movies they were very done with the franchise. It took Matthew Vaugh, Bryan Singer, and Ryan Reynolds as a group to return to the FOX offices after most of the former executives were fired to try to reboot the franchise.
The Wolverine failed only because the ending of the movie didn't make sense and much of it was due to the ending being rewritten and the R rating it had being toned down to a PG-13 by the studio. Singer needed to find a way to clean the slate for future movies and prove that X-Men could work while bringing back old and new fans. Days Of Future Past was a success and now allowed Singer to push ahead with Apocalypse but it also opened the door for Ryan Reynolds to bring the fan created CGI concept to the studio (yes, the leaked one from Comic-Con) and show them just how out of the box his character would have been if done right.
Reynolds was a fan of Deadpool and he knew he spoke for the fans of the character because they got cheated out of it by studio executives who didn't understand the character at all (there was a studio note found that said "Reynolds isn't that funny, why don't you find a way to tape his mouth shut." which they actually did by letting Reynolds go and then filming the final battle with a stunt double. Barakapool was designed with no mouth so he couldn't talk so they could get away with not using Reynolds. They only got busted after a workprint was leaked which showed the horrible ending and FOX was forced to scrambled to do reshoots as damage control and even ask Reynolds to come back just to film the after credit scene to open the door for Deadpool still being alive). FOX couldn't really argue with comic accuracy after looking at Guardians Of The Galaxy (a raccoon and a tree as heroes) so they gave Reynolds the chance.
By the way Ryan Reynolds is a producer AND actor for this new Deadpool. Yup, He is the one who sat with the writers to do the script.. worked with the costume designers to make sure the costume was the comic version.. and even convinced the studio to make Deadpool the first R rated comic movie since BLADE and THE PUNISHER. Without Ryan behind it.. well, we would probably just only have Barakapool because FOX would have been very happy just letting X-Men Origins: Wolverine being his resting place forever.
- CQ
I thank you kindly for that good sir! Now that I know this, I hope the movie makes Spider-man money!
Yeah, I give mad props to Ryan for sticking to his guns on this whole thing... it feels like he's been campaigning for this film for longer than Edgar Wright was attached to Antman. To give it to someone else would be a huge disservice to the dedication that man has to the character.
Avengers 2 apparently wont have a stinger at the end.
Quote from: Spade on April 08, 2015, 05:10:25 PM
Avengers 2 apparently wont have a stinger at the end.
That's the word, though it will still have a mid-credits scene.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the end of phase 2, right? The rest of the Marvel movies (Black Panther, Inhumans, Cap3, etc) will all be part of phase 3 until the next Avengers movie.
Quote from: JeyNyce on April 09, 2015, 07:33:53 PM
So correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the end of phase 2, right? The rest of the Marvel movies (Black Panther, Inhumans, Cap3, etc) will all be part of phase 3 until the next Avengers movie.
Ant-man is technically the end of phase 2, I believe, but given the relative stakes of Avengers 2 vs. Ant-man, I think it's safe to think of it as more of an epilogue or coda.
New Ant-man trailer is out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdKf3MneyI
I think this is going to be pretty good, I least I hope it will be good. It seems like they are going the route of Guardians and making it an action/ comedy type movie.
Ant-man looks good to me. But then again, i don't think i'm all that picky when it comes to superhero movies.
There are a few inconsistencies that i seem to notice. Like did i hear it right? He gains super strength when he shrinks? I thought that kinda sounds like the Atom to me. Can't recall if Ant-man had super strength before.
And his enemy Darren Cross doesn't seem to be faithful to how he was in the comics. Here, he seems to be fighting Ant-man as Yellow Jacket.
And of course Hank Pym being portrayed as a very old man....
Well, then again it's the movies/hollywood. They don't always follow the comics. :P
So much better than the last one. I can actually defend it again now.
I believe it was when Ant-man shrinks that he keeps his same strength, speed, etc. So if he could lift 100lbs when he's normal, he could lift 100lbs when he ant size. Strength and speed proportion as a spid.....uh, ant
Much better trailer this time. I see potential...
The Conan trailer was hilarious! :thumbup:
Spider-mans MCU movie will not be an origin story,since well, everyone knows the story already.
Quote from: Spade on April 21, 2015, 05:19:19 AM
Spider-mans MCU movie will not be an origin story,since well, everyone knows the story already.
Wait, Spider-Man? Who's that?
Quote from: spydermann93 on April 21, 2015, 05:27:53 AM
Quote from: Spade on April 21, 2015, 05:19:19 AM
Spider-mans MCU movie will not be an origin story,since well, everyone knows the story already.
Wait, Spider-Man? Who's that?
Said no one ever! :thumbup:
Quote from: spydermann93 on April 21, 2015, 05:27:53 AM
Quote from: Spade on April 21, 2015, 05:19:19 AM
Spider-mans MCU movie will not be an origin story,since well, everyone knows the story already.
Wait, Spider-Man? Who's that?
You made me blow a booger on my macbook screen...
www.independent.co.uk/img/rO0ABXQAYGZ7aHR0cDovL3d3dy5pbmRlcGVuZGVudC5jby51ay9pbmNvbWluZy9hcnRpY2xlMTAyMjIwNDcuZWNlL2FsdGVybmF0ZXMvdzYyMC9YLU1lbi5qcGd9Zjc3NzdmMzIwdA==.jpg (http://www.independent.co.uk/img/rO0ABXQAYGZ7aHR0cDovL3d3dy5pbmRlcGVuZGVudC5jby51ay9pbmNvbWluZy9hcnRpY2xlMTAyMjIwNDcuZWNlL2FsdGVybmF0ZXMvdzYyMC9YLU1lbi5qcGd9Zjc3NzdmMzIwdA==.jpg)
First look at Jubilee and Jean.Any thoughts?
Haha, how perfectly 80s. Jubilee looks great. Jean is obviously not as distinctive in non-costumed appearance, so I don't have much to say about her, though I wonder how old the actress is. She seems a bit young.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 05, 2015, 08:06:46 PM
Haha, how perfectly 80s. Jubilee looks great. Jean is obviously not as distinctive in non-costumed appearance, so I don't have much to say about her, though I wonder how old the actress is. She seems a bit young.
That's Sophie Turner from Game of Thrones, age 19.
Hmm, I suppose the X-Men were originally supposed to be teenagers, after all. I guess I'm just used to thinking of them as a bit older.
Apocalypse will show both Havok and Cyclops on screen,together.And they are brothers,since apparently Wolverine: Origins isnt in continuity with the new movies.Havok is older here.
Did anyone catch this?
Spoiler
http://nukethefridge.com/2014/12/07/thanos-josh-brolin-booked-marvel-2016-2017/
Apparently Josh Broilin will be working in 2016 and 2017? Does this mean he'll be voicing Thanos in Doctor Strange or Thor 3? Is he a certain bet for GotG2? Is it certain he won't be in CA:CW? I mean I'm sure we could have expected his inclusion prior to Infinity War, but this gives us an idea where.
(http://i.imgur.com/r8SIMny.jpg)
A bad picture of Storm and Apocalypse.They look okay,IMO.
Magneto: Who the Fu** are you?
Apocalypse: Come and see!
Haha,biblical reference.By Apocalypse,not by Magneto. :unsure:
Deadpools trailer was...odd?I cant really find a word.
Trying not to push myself until the clean versions are up. At first I thought it was weird they didn't just go ahead and leak high def versions themselves but I suppose the whole bootlegged footage thing raises much hype for their product. Still if it were me I'd want a quality version out there by my company first full knowing someone was going to snipe it anyways.
Excited about X-men but I'm minding the Curse Of The Third especially when it comes to comic movies. It might not live up to DOFP as well it's going to be compared to the previous films when it comes to critique which means the film REALLY is going to have to work for it. I also watched Olivia Munn's swordplay demonstration. I mean this with no sarcasm and maybe I'm alone here but I am really proud of Munn for finally breaking in, she has worked hard for it. But honestly all I want to know is if Bingbing is still in and what Blink will be doing then. Because Bingbing >>> Munn, just saying.
Deadpool trailer to me? Lot of curse words for the sake of curse words, lot of headasplodes for the sake of headasplodes. I'm sure the final result will amount to more than that as GOTG did and they're just being crass with the R Band to show they're not pulling any punches. This movie has been so long in the making that it's hard not be excited for it. Or at least the fact that it's not the version from the previous film alone. A little more pumped for Gambit though, that's a childhood dream of a movie right there!
Psylockes costume was a hot topic these days.Its apparenty the Jim Lee design and almost impossible to get into.No word on Cable.I guess he really isnt in this movie.
Deadpool trailes seemed a bit juveline.Oh and notice Liefelds cameo.He was also the consultant for the movie.That explains a lott.
I hope they know what they're doing
http://comicbook.com/2015/07/13/x-men-apocalypses-four-horsemen-revealed/
Well...I don't know about that....those are some interesting and somewhat worrisome choices, if true.
I can understand the others,but Magneto is weird addition.Seeing he opposed Apocalypse in the story.
Quote from: Spade on July 15, 2015, 04:49:57 AM
I can understand the others,but Magneto is weird addition.Seeing he opposed Apocalypse in the story.
Magneto had a very different role in Age Of Apocalypse.. they are NOT adapting that story into X-Men: Apocalypse. This is the rise of Apocalypse that occurs a decade after Days Of Future Past just after Xavier officially opened the Xavier School For The Gifted. The teaser trailer shown at SDCC and comments made by Fassbender reveal that Magneto retired after his final conflict with Xavier and witnessing Mystique changing her ways. Apocalypse and his followers eventually find and collect three of the horsemen with Eric being the last and once realizing that his options were very limited.. He joins as a horsemen. In Age Of Apocalypse it was the death of Xavier which forced him to realize he took the wrong path and took on Xavier's dream to honor him. That did not happen in the movies. Eric chooses to step out of his usual role to avoid the future that Wolverine told him about knowing that fate usually forced mutants into an endless cycle of war if the pieces were put on the chess board. Eric joins Apocalypse knowing he must betray him by helping Charles find the weakness in the unstoppable.
They are using the rules of time travel (well, mostly comic book rules and a few movie/tv rules) that changing one key event to avoid a huge disaster usually follows with a ripple effect of an event more disruptive then the last. So by erasing the Sentinel ruled timeline it somehow allows the right conditions for Apocalypse awakening which brings forth a potential event allowing for mutantkind to take over and bring about the future that Trask was trying to avoid.
- CQ
Okay,I agree with that.Just that Magneto has different morals and plans from Apocalypse,and its a bit hard to imagine them working together.But its a movie,so some changes are expected.
Perhaps Magneto is not a willing subject? Apcoalypse has been known to trick people into service :P
http://www.comicvine.com/articles/updated-film-versions-of-apocalypse-and-psylocke-r/1100-152921/?ftag=YHR3d385aa (http://www.comicvine.com/articles/updated-film-versions-of-apocalypse-and-psylocke-r/1100-152921/?ftag=YHR3d385aa)
Nobody posted it I think,so here it is.A whole gallery from Apocalypse.Gotta say,other then Magneto,Im not that sold on costumes.
Like many have said, Psylocke looks great and Apocalypse looks like Ivan Ooze :D
Apocalypse just doesn't look right played by an actual human being. It hate to say it, but he needs cgi. May even just a digital head size readjustment would do it.
Yeah, I been meaning to comment on the look of our cast:
-Psylocke looks surprisingly spot on.
-Magneto's costume looks overdesigned. I liked the ones from the last two movies more (but it's Fassbender so he still wins). I'm not sure why they're going with "armored" looks so much.
-Jean kinda looks like they're trying to replicate the top from Morrison's New X-Men.
-Young Nightcrawler looks pretty good.
-OMG you gais Jubilee looks sooo good! I feel like she doesn't even have to say or do anything, just show up looking like that and she wins.
-Apocalypse is an odd one. I think the classic comic and cartoon look would be hard to make work in live action but this version is kinda baffling. I don't know if they can make it good good in the finished movie.
http://mcuexchange.com/thunderbolts-in-the-mcu/ (http://mcuexchange.com/thunderbolts-in-the-mcu/)
More speculation about Thunderbolts movie.Basicly,any incarnation is possible.Maybe after Civil War or Avengers 3.We can only hope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKWUTwSYAs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKWUTwSYAs)
If you missed Deadpool trailer here it is.
Quote from: Spade on August 07, 2015, 09:28:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKWUTwSYAs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKWUTwSYAs)
If you missed Deadpool trailer here it is.
I see this movie being a huge hit. Marvel would be foolish not to have movie related merchandise for this film.
Quote from: JeyNyce on August 07, 2015, 01:12:43 PM
Quote from: Spade on August 07, 2015, 09:28:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKWUTwSYAs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKWUTwSYAs)
If you missed Deadpool trailer here it is.
I see this movie being a huge hit. Marvel would be foolish not to have movie related merchandise for this film.
Dont worry,they will.
Oh,and no Liefeld cameo this time.He was a consultant for this movie too.You probably guessed that.
I'm looking forward to the xmen, but can't help thinking of Ivan ooze ( power ranger movie ) when I look at apocalypse :doh:
Fantastic Four is out,right?
Anyone seen it?
Quote from: Spade on August 09, 2015, 04:37:39 AM
Fantastic Four is out,right?
Anyone seen it?
Yeah, I have. It wasn't nearly as bad as about 90% of the reviews make it out to be, but there was still much to be desired. I'd say 6/10.
It's no Days of Future Past, but it's no X-Men Origins: Wolverine, either.
I'd say it's a bit better than the FF movie from 2005 (and definitely better than Rise of the Silver Surfer), but that's about it.
I will say that Doom was really good, though. Probably the best thing in the movie.
Ohh my gosh, I just read a spoilerific review of the new Fantastic Four movie, and it sounds spectacularly bad, even worse than I had expected. I SO hope this thing crashes and burns and that the rights will go back to Marvel!
Apparently, Dr. Doom is "a surly, grungy cyber-hipster." Urg. Hello next generation, where all of our villains are 20 year old avatars of the worst of our culture, rather than the characters that have endured for half a century.
It's currently sitting at 8% on Rotten Tomatoes. That's darn impressive.
My favorite review so far:
http://www.vox.com/2015/8/7/9114501/fantastic-four-movie-review
Highlights include: "Fantastic Four is an unmittigated garbage fire" and "watching [it] is like taking a cheese grater to your soul."
Everyone is currently wondering what's going to happen with the Fantastic Four license, giving that it has bombed (for a movie of this budget and ad campaign), opening with just 26 million dollars, and in second to Mission Impossible 5, in its second weekend.
Fox has several options being discussed, none of them particularly good:
- They can let the proposed sequel die, sit on the rights for however many years this gives them and then let them lapse back to Marvel, or try to reboot again at that point.
- They can damn the torpedos, and make a sequel no one wants just to secure the license for years more, basically to prevent Marvel from pulling a Daredevil (where Fox let the rights slip after an attempted reboot failed to come together in time, and Marvel turned it into Netflix gold).
- They could collaborate with Marvel on future movies, a la Sony and the Spider-man situation. Whether this would entail another reboot, as Spider-man has, well, who knows? Apparently there is much worse blood between Fox and Marvel than there was between Sony and Marvel though, so a deal could be hard to reach.
- They can cross the Fan 4 over with the X-men, and hope that one franchise could save the other. I don't know if this is seriously being considered, since crossover talk was nixed in the lead-up to the Fan 4's poor launch this weekend, probably because Fox doesn't want to taint their good superhero series with this one. I only include this because I've seen it discussed a few places online.
How likely any of these scenarios are I have no idea, but I think that covers everything I've seen discussed.
Marvel/Disney has the money to make it worth their while. We can hope. :mellow:
Yes the argument between Fox and Marvel.Cant comment on the quality of the newest FF,but Marvel goes a bit overboard sometimes.Fox BOUGHT the rights.For money.Which saved Marvel at the time.Whatever they are,they arent so bad in this case.
I have not actually seen this new F4 movie. A couple weeks ago, after seeing the trailer in Ant-Man, we were kind of excited about seeing it. So, this last Saturday, it was looking like we might be able to get to a mid-afternoon movie. I looked up some showtimes and then went to IMDB to see reviews, just in case. Whoa, Nelly!! This movie was thrashed in the reviews. And, usually (though not always), the opening weekend fan reviews are from people who are excited to see the movie. But, both the fan reviews were largely a mix of "I got tired of trying to explain away the plot holes to my eight-year-old son", "This storyline feels like it was stitched together by four different committees", and "Why? Why? In the name of Stan Lee, WHY?!?!" In case there is any doubt, we did not go see the movie. ;-)
Assuming that these reviews and the reported disappointing box office are an accurate reflection of Fox's fortunes with the F4 franchise, Fox has to be thinking long and hard about whether they really want to make another F4 movie. I have to wonder: Is Fox's best option to simply offer to sell the rights back to Marvel/Disney? Fox has had three tries and none of them has been impressive. Why make another flop in a couple years to preserve the right to make yet another flop even further down the line? Call up Marvel Studios and say, "You have proven you can turn these comics franchises into box office gold. But, you can't do it with F4 until we release the movie rights back to you. So, what is it worth to you?" If they can turn turn the headline from "Fox's Fantastic Flop" to "Fox makes $40M on Marvel's Next F4 Movie", then they will have done quite well. Obviously, it's more complicated than that (and more so because Marvel may be so busy with their own films for the next few years that they wouldn't have time to make an F4 pic until after Fox's do-or-die date for the next feature had already passed anyway), but it may be the best option for Fox.
Quote from: BentonGrey on August 10, 2015, 03:08:40 AMApparently, Dr. Doom is "a surly, grungy cyber-hipster." Urg. Hello next generation, where all of our villains are 20 year old avatars of the worst of our culture, rather than the characters that have endured for half a century.
Spoiler
I will say after seeing the movie, the "blogger" aspect of Doom is hardly explored, at all. Really, the most you see of Doom (aside from him unleashing havoc upon everybody once he gets his powers) is him watching over Sue with lustful eyes with him growing ever more jealous of Reed, who has not only solved a problem that he could not, but is also "winning" the affection of Sue (which there is no chemistry between them at all and they sure don't seem to really like each other).
Yes, the first scene that you see Doom is him in his room on a bunch of computers, but again, that aspect of his character is explored so little, it really isn't a big deal. Then again, none of his character is really explored, so look at that as you will :P
This may not be relevant to the new F4 movie (which I haven't seen), but I really find many of the romances in these movies to be contrived and uninteresting. For instance: A love triangle with Doom, Sue, and Reed? Yawn. At least a triangle with Reed, Sue, and Namor is something I remember from the comics. (That's not to say the one with Doom wasn't in the "normal" universe F4 comics in some version of the group's backstory; it's been a long time since I kept up with those books.)
But, in a movie, it's nearly impossible to develop a compelling romantic subplot between the characters, and develop the villain past being a mustache-twirler, and do justice to a superhero origin story, and still flesh out the present day story arc that (presumably) justifies most of the action. In Man of Steel, it's only about one superhero and they take the Lois and Kal romance pretty slow. And, several of my friends were still asking, "So, what's the attraction between them? Why does he like her?" At least there, in that movie, there is no love triangle (though one could argue that the triangle is Kal-Lois-Clark...). In a team movie, there is even less time available to make a simple romance work, much less a love triangle. That Doom-Sue-Reed triangle was such an uncompelling part of the 2005 F4 movie and it was so ho-hum and full of clichés. Near the end, we find that Sue never really had much interest in Doom; she just wanted Reed to fight for her. What is she, twelve years old?!? And, BTW, since guys like Doom and Richards seem to invent or acquire a device that can end the world every couple months, maybe toying with their emotions to satisfy her need for attention is kind of a bad idea? Yeesh. :blink:
Well 2005 version sucked,but Julian McMahon was actually pretty good as Doom.
This is the way I see it:
Fox needs to give Marvel back the right to the FF. They have tried 3 times to make a decent FF movie and failed. If they try to do a cross over with X-men, how long you think that will last? The X-men are getting old and after "Old Man Logan" it will be hard to fill Hugh Jackman shoes as Wolverine.
If I was Marvel and had the rights to the FF, I would hold on to it until the Avengers and phase 3 ended and start phase 4 with the Fantastic Four. Phase 1,2,3 would be Avengers related, 4,5,6 would be Fantastic Four related and have Spidey in both of them.
Even if Marvel made a F4 movie, it'd still hold the problem that they're the worst characters, and most people aren't interested in them. I'd rather just never see anyone make another movie, and I definitely don't want their box office poison to affect the MCU.
Quote from: BWPS on August 10, 2015, 02:07:37 PM
Even if Marvel made a F4 movie, it'd still hold the problem that they're the worst characters, and most people aren't interested in them. I'd rather just never see anyone make another movie, and I definitely don't want their box office poison to affect the MCU.
If most people aren't interested in them, it's because there hasn't been a decent movie to make them interested. Did you really think the general public was interested in Ant-Man or Guardians of the Galaxy before Marvel made movies about them? If Marvel -- and not Fox, but Marvel Studios; people will be drawn to it via Marvel Studios alone -- can make a good Fantastic Four movie, then you've got my guarantee that most people will be interested in them, simply because they'd be the stars of a good Marvel movie.
But aside from that, they're far from 'the worst characters'. They may not always be compelling protagonists, but the original Lee&Kirby comics are classics for a reason, and on top of that, they still work well as supporting characters in the larger MU. They deserve at least one good movie, and I think that if Marvel got the rights back, they could make one. (Though I'd really just want Pixar to take a crack it. The Incredibles is basically the best FF movie ever made, so imagine what they could do with an actual FF movie.)
Quote from: kkhohoho on August 10, 2015, 02:30:35 PM
Quote from: BWPS on August 10, 2015, 02:07:37 PM
Even if Marvel made a F4 movie, it'd still hold the problem that they're the worst characters, and most people aren't interested in them. I'd rather just never see anyone make another movie, and I definitely don't want their box office poison to affect the MCU.
If most people aren't interested in them, it's because there hasn't been a decent movie to make them interested. Did you really think the general public was interested in Ant-Man or Guardians of the Galaxy before Marvel made movies about them? If Marvel -- and not Fox, but Marvel Studios; people will be drawn to it via Marvel Studios alone -- can make a good Fantastic Four movie, then you've got my guarantee that most people will be interested in them, simply because they'd be the stars of a good Marvel movie.
But aside from that, they're far from 'the worst characters'. They may not always be compelling protagonists, but the original Lee&Kirby comics are classics for a reason, and on top of that, they still work well as supporting characters in the larger MU. They deserve at least one good movie, and I think that if Marvel got the rights back, they could make one. (Though I'd really just want Pixar to take a crack it. The Incredibles is basically the best FF movie ever made, so imagine what they could do with an actual FF movie.)
Actually,Marvel made those BECAUSE they couldnt make FF,Spider-man or X-men.See how it all goes full circle?
I heard that Marvel is blocking the production of a new X-men animated series...because Marvel.
Quote from: BWPS on August 10, 2015, 02:07:37 PM
Even if Marvel made a F4 movie, it'd still hold the problem that they're the worst characters, and most people aren't interested in them. I'd rather just never see anyone make another movie, and I definitely don't want their box office poison to affect the MCU.
Not true at all. There is an excellent Fantastic Four movie that did quite well at the box office and is beloved by fans - it just happens to be called
The Incredibles. Between the power sets, the family dynamic, the humour and tone, that's the movie any makers of a Fantastic Four film should be watching. It can be done, because Pixar did it.
Quote from: Talavar on August 10, 2015, 07:55:29 PMNot true at all. There is an excellent Fantastic Four movie that did quite well at the box office and is beloved by fans - it just happens to be called The Incredibles. Between the power sets, the family dynamic, the humour and tone, that's the movie any makers of a Fantastic Four film should be watching. It can be done, because Pixar did it.
I LOVE THE INCREDIBLES!! :wub: :thumbup: :wub:
Such a great movie :D
Quote from: Talavar on August 10, 2015, 07:55:29 PM
Quote from: BWPS on August 10, 2015, 02:07:37 PM
Even if Marvel made a F4 movie, it'd still hold the problem that they're the worst characters, and most people aren't interested in them. I'd rather just never see anyone make another movie, and I definitely don't want their box office poison to affect the MCU.
Not true at all. There is an excellent Fantastic Four movie that did quite well at the box office and is beloved by fans - it just happens to be called The Incredibles. Between the power sets, the family dynamic, the humour and tone, that's the movie any makers of a Fantastic Four film should be watching. It can be done, because Pixar did it.
Lol.
Anyway, I know this is still a minority opinion, but I didn't much mind the first F4 franchise. Despite many problems, at least they seemed to put forth a more valiant effort. It seem more adult. More fun. Julian McMahon's arrogance seemed like what Doom would be. Very calculating. The relationships of the group seemed more organic and realistic. They really played out the over-explaining Reed does. They showed how much the Thing does not like being the Thing. They showed Johnny's not simply being a hothead but a do first kinda guy. I don't know how much this new version was able to capture all that. Yeah, they were far from perfect movies and did a lot of things wrong(especially the sequel), but again, I think their attempt was much better. I don't even know if these guys were even trying.
The Incredibles isn't the Fantastic Four, it's a totally different thing. None of the characters are alike. It's a completely different family dynamic. It's mostly different powers. It might be inspired by it, but they very smartly decided to make it completely different.
Quote from: BWPS on August 10, 2015, 09:30:26 PM
The Incredibles isn't the Fantastic Four, it's a totally different thing. None of the characters are alike. It's a completely different family dynamic. It's mostly different powers. It might be inspired by it, but they very smartly decided to make it completely different.
Really? Because from where I'm standing, they're pretty darn similar. Bob has the Thing's strength, Elasti-girl has Reed's stretching powers, Violet has Sue's invisibility and force-fields, and while Dash doesn't have the same abilities as Johnny, he's still an impetuous hothead. On top of that, they're a family who end up having strange adventures, they have a super-powerful baby, and their arch-enemy is a super-genius who is linked rather heavily to the lead hero. Yes, they were inspired by the FF, but they took such a heavy amount of inspiration that it could be considered an FF film in spirit if nothing else.
Yeah but thankfully they changed enough so that it was actually good is what I'm saying. They didn't have an unlikable completely unbelievable super-genius, they didn't have the unlikable weak damsel in distress trope character, they didn't have the unlikable cocky bully who thinks he's God's gift to the world, and they didn't have a depressed monster who is actually a halfway good character except the fact that he's some kind of stupid-talking jabroni. It looked like they had changed all of that for this new movie which seemed smart, but it seems like they still made it bad. I'll see it in the dollar theater and let everyone know if it's good or bad and if so how much of that is the source material's fault.
Quote from: BWPS on August 10, 2015, 10:45:02 PM
Yeah but thankfully they changed enough so that it was actually good is what I'm saying. They didn't have an unlikable completely unbelievable super-genius, they didn't have the unlikable weak damsel in distress trope character, they didn't have the unlikable cocky bully who thinks he's God's gift to the world, and they didn't have a depressed monster who is actually a halfway good character except the fact that he's some kind of stupid-talking jabroni. It looked like they had changed all of that for this new movie which seemed smart, but it seems like they still made it bad. I'll see it in the dollar theater and let everyone know if it's good or bad and if so how much of that is the source material's fault.
...Huh.
Look, I can see where you're coming from, but while the FF aren't exactly my favorite heroes, I do not think they're the horrible, asinine characters you seem to think they are, and because of that, I still believe they deserve a good movie, and so long as Marvel knows what they're doing, I also believe that they can make one so long as they get the rights.
The F 4 are actually great characters if they just get done right. They've been popular for so long for a reason.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on August 11, 2015, 12:27:56 AM
The F 4 are actually great characters if they just get done right. They've been popular for so long for a reason.
Exactly. Granted, they're still harder characters to make for compelling protagonists than others, but under the pen of someone like John Byrne or maybe Jonathan Hickman, it can be done. And if it can be done on the page, then it should be possible to do it on the screen.
Guys... It's bwps. Chill.
In all seriousness, I have no problem with the f4. I liked the last series of films well enough, despite its flaws, and I do think the potential is there... But fox has proven time and again that they cannot be trusted with these franchises, and its only in spite of fox's meddling that we have had as many decent xmen films as we've gotten. And even then, time and again fox has botched that franchise too... Wolverine Origins was a movie no one wanted to do, but fox came down and said they HAD to do an origin story... And also they HAD to set up other movies that ended up being totally different then Origins introduced.
So... Yeah, I can and do blame fox for this, rather than the f4 itself. That's like blaming superman because Returns wasn't good.
Yeah,Wolverine origins...but also first 2 movies,First class,and DOFP.So Fox did a pretty good job with X-men.And they would be pretty impossible in MCU and nobody wants AvX the Movie.
I really like Jey's idea of Phase Four being centered around F4 and Spidey. I'm sure you'd have doctor strange, black panther, and captain marvel sequels too, they could be the next generation of Avengers. With Falcon, Scarlet Witch and Vision being the vets leading them.
I think the hardest thing about casting the F4 has to be finding someone for sue that has chemistry with reed, and star power for the movie to succeed. In my opinion Jessica Alba was a bit miscast in the first movies, while the rest of the cast was pretty good.
Captorch Humerica,anyone?
:rolleyes:
Again, my point is that we've got good X-men films IN SPITE of Fox, rather than because of. Fox is also responsible for rushing X3 out the door with a director who didn't know the material and who has openly admitted to only ever watching the X-men cartoon. First Class also faced incredibly tight deadlines, the advertisements were atrocious, and it's only thanks to a good director and talented leads that the movie did well at all. All three of the other films were helmed by Bryan Singer, whose original successes have allowed him to keep Fox off his back.
Contrast that with Marvel Studios. True, there are ugly reports of Studio interference driving away directors there too, but I get the impression it's more along the lines of "This is our master plan for the next ten years, we need you to build up X Y and Z in your movie," rather than "We're going to pennypinch you, give you insane deadlines, and botch all our own movie's advertisements"
I liked the first Iron Man movie.They found a washed up hero,got a washed up actor to play him.Have him fight his darker version.Throw in a Stan Lee cameo.And it strangly worked.
THEN THEY DID THAT EXACT THING 10 MORE TIMES!How is that good storytelling?
Because they managed to have a larger narrative that stretches across a dozen or more movies, something that has never been done before and is actually pretty amazing? Like... I know you don't care for Marvel movies man, but don't discount their accomplishments just because you don't like them. Are they flawed? Yes, and I think the flaws are beginning to show and Marvel will have to step up their game over the next few years. But I feel like the people in charge are willing to do that for the sake of the characters.
Don't get me wrong, I like the X-men movies, and as long as they stay in competent hands, I'm fine with them being off on their own. But Marvel has churned out success after success since they started, and I can't help but feel like they should have F4 back too.
About the FF I have to agree,Marvel probably couldnt do worst then Fox.
About MCU,to each his own.Thou,they arent the first who combined separate into whole.DCAU did it before.
Seeing we got Civil war coming up,I wonder will New Warriors show up?
The Marvel Universe is huge. They need to handle it in chunks. Right now they are doing Avengers on the big screen and Defenders on the small screen. If they do get the FF back, that should be their next big screen project and either have Blade or Ghost Rider on the small screen or maybe even the New Warriors on the small screen.
Quote from: Spade on August 11, 2015, 05:51:37 PM
I liked the first Iron Man movie.They found a washed up hero,got a washed up actor to play him.Have him fight his darker version.Throw in a Stan Lee cameo.And it strangly worked.
THEN THEY DID THAT EXACT THING 10 MORE TIMES!How is that good storytelling?
Not even close to the truth. But then, I'm fairly certain from dancing this dance before that you have very different ideas about what constitutes good storytelling.
Quote from: BWPS on August 10, 2015, 09:30:26 PM
The Incredibles isn't the Fantastic Four, it's a totally different thing. None of the characters are alike. It's a completely different family dynamic. It's mostly different powers. It might be inspired by it, but they very smartly decided to make it completely different.
At first I thought this was a joke. 3 of the four main characters have exactly the same powers as the Fan 4, and the fourth has a similar personality. The family dynamic is different, but the idea of it is the same. And your characterizations of the Fan 4 from the other post are all the worst interpretations of the characters from 50 years of history.
Quote from: Spade on August 11, 2015, 06:13:06 PM
About the FF I have to agree,Marvel probably couldnt do worst then Fox.
About MCU,to each his own.Thou,they arent the first who combined separate into whole.DCAU did it before.
Seeing we got Civil war coming up,I wonder will New Warriors show up?
Film and TV are not the same thing. TV shows have crossovers all the time... X-men in Spiderman, TMNT in Power Rangers... hell, Martial Law, Early Edition and Texas Ranger all crossed over with each other at one point (yes, I am old enough to remember that.) but film? The only films to keep continuity across multiple films are either films from a single franchise, or the occasional wink and nod to other franchises. So yes, DCAU did it before Marvel did, but that's like DC comics did the crossover thing 40 years before the DCAU... it's a completely different medium
Yeah, 'Mato is right. The MCU is the first set of films to do what only comics have done before, create a massive, sprawling universe with shared continuity across multiple titles and by multiple creators. There's nothing to compare to those types of comics in the history of literature, and there's nothing to compare to the MCU in cinema. It's a breathtaking accomplishment.
As for similarities in plot, I'd say they're exaggerated, but even more importantly, similar plots are to be expected with comics, a genre where the content is so archetypal. The Marvel movies succeed, both for fans, and, more importantly, for average folks, through the strength of their characters. My wife, my mother, my sister, my niece, and a huge range of people who never bothered with action movies and couldn't care less about comics have fallen head over heels in love with the MCU. They follow movie news, look forward to new editions, and are generally more invested in these than any other film franchise I've ever seen. They love these movies because they are, on the whole, well written (not too many plot holes, unlike everything WB and the other companies puts out), fun, funny, and with a great and memorable cast of characters.
Asked to describe why she liked the movies, my wife said, "they're clever, fun, and they bring the characters to life."
In my professional opinion, these movies are, taken all-in-all, a unique work of art. ;)
Ah,yes,the all is connected theory.
Like in Daredevil somebody mentions there is a guy with magic hammer and hell yeah,thats so connected to the Avengers.Almost essential.
Quote from: Spade on August 12, 2015, 04:21:16 AM
Ah,yes,the all is connected theory.
Like in Daredevil somebody mentions there is a guy with magic hammer and hell yeah,thats so connected to the Avengers.Almost essential.
:rolleyes: Don't be silly, Spade. That's the weakest connection in the bunch, but it is hardly indicative of the whole. There is a shared universe, a shared continuity, and guest-stars, character development, and more have been shared between different franchises.
The Avengers' economy of storytelling was only possible because there was a wealth of character development available to the audience before the first scene ever played. From minor things, like the appearance of Captain America in Thor's movies, the Falcon in
Ant Man, or the like, to bigger things, like universe building moments in each film, they have about as much inter-franchise continuity as the comics themselves. It isn't every issue that Captain America and Thor cross over, or Iron Man and Hawkeye, but the larger Universe is always there in the background. The same is true for the films, and that is what makes them unique.
If you don't like their style, that's one thing, but it strikes me as strange to deny the obvious accomplishments of Marvel Studios.
I dont deny that movies made a TON of money,they did.
Its just that they got a bit too repetative for my taste.
And I can't fault you for that... certain issues are starting to irk me about the films as well (Mainly that we need more 3 dimensional villains like Magneto. Ultron was a great disappointment, and while Yellowjacket was fun in an "over the top evil" sort of way, well rounded he was not.) However, even with the problems, there are exceptions to every rule... I would argue Loki is much more nuanced and fleshed out than Thor is, and Alexander Pierce was neither a clone of Cap nor was he a one-note villain, and Mr. Hyde from SHIELD was given more depth than the character ever had in the comics. And Kingpin... ho boy, the Kingpin.
Again, this is stuff Marvel studios needs to work on going forward to keep from going stale... but I'd argue Fox and WB have FAR more issues than Marvel does. I'll take a bit of repetitiveness if the film is good, rather than have a garbage film that tries to pretend it's more than it is.
Ultron was dissapointing?You havent seen Malekith.
Quote from: BentonGrey on August 12, 2015, 03:44:26 AM
Yeah, 'Mato is right. The MCU is the first set of films to do what only comics have done before, create a massive, sprawling universe with shared continuity across multiple titles and by multiple creators. There's nothing to compare to those types of comics in the history of literature, and there's nothing to compare to the MCU in cinema. It's a breathtaking accomplishment.
In a nutshell Marvel is trying to do to their movies what they have been doing to their comics.
Really screw them up?
Quote from: Spade on August 12, 2015, 02:54:09 PM
Really screw them up?
So who is or was making good superhero movies, Spade? I'm sick of defending the MCU from borderline trolling, and since the burden of proof should be on the person making outrageous claims, I don't feel I should have to. Who do you think is doing it right?
Quote from: Talavar on August 12, 2015, 04:28:27 PM
Quote from: Spade on August 12, 2015, 02:54:09 PM
Really screw them up?
So who is or was making good superhero movies, Spade? I'm sick of defending the MCU from borderline trolling, and since the burden of proof should be on the person making outrageous claims, I don't feel I should have to. Who do you think is doing it right?
You know there isn't really a competition AT THIS moment?We did name a few X-men movies?And there is The Dark Knight trilogy? ^_^
But a company that didn't make mistakes DOES NOT EXIST!
PS Totally my fault.Forgot to add italic.
Yeah... I like the X-men movies, but if we go through all the problems with them (and I mean the good ones like X2 and DoFP) we will be here all day. As for the Dark Knight Trilogy... again, I like the films, but perfect movies they were not. The fight scenes are muddled it's hard to see what's going on, the characters spend hours talking about their own motivations, the world is made to be so "hyper-realistic" that there is no room for over half of Batman's villains without MAJOR changes (Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy, Firefly, etc.), and the whole bit with "Oh, my name is Robin *wink*" was just plain mood breaking.
And again, both companies have had as many failures as successes with those franchises. For every Batman Begins, there's a Superman Returns. For every TDK, there's a Green Lantern. For Every X2, there's an X3. To say that they're "Better" as you cherry pick the best films to point to is no better than me saying the MCU has well rounded villains while only bringing up CA2 and the Daredevil show. You were more than happy to pull out Maleketh earlier (I didn't forget his dumbness, but I was going for more recent offerings) and it's a solid point.
Everyone had good and bad points.And for the 100000 time,I did like some of the MCU movies and elements.
But I cant really stack a different Cinematic Universe against it since THERE IS NONE as of this point.DC has only Man of Steel,which wasnt that great.Valiant universe hasnt even started.And nobody else has similar plans.But being the only one,doesnt really make them perfect.
On a side note, Black Panther costume:
http://comicbook.com/2015/08/12/captain-america-civil-war-first-look-at-black-panther-costume/
What do you guys think?
Quote from: Spade on August 12, 2015, 05:07:30 PMBut I cant really stack a different Cinematic Universe against it since THERE IS NONE as of this point.
Which is part of what people are saying is an accomplishment in the MCU. Despite some flaws, they actually have a cinematic universe. That's not a trivial thing.
DC/Warner didn't really have a single universe in mind when it put together many of its live-action shows in the past and now they are working to catch up. I am glad they are making the attempt and I like that some of that is visible in the Arrow and Flash TV shows (and possibly elsewhere). Until the SvB movie, we won't know if they have done it on the movie side. And, really, we won't know until there is a DC movie that isn't a direct sequel to Man Of Steel.
Quote from: Spade on August 12, 2015, 05:07:30 PMBut being the only one,doesnt really make them perfect.
I totally agree. Of course, I am not sure where anyone is actually claiming that the MCU is perfect...
Quote from: Tomato on August 12, 2015, 05:01:55 PM
As for the Dark Knight Trilogy... again, I like the films, but perfect movies they were not. The fight scenes are muddled it's hard to see what's going on, the characters spend hours talking about their own motivations, the world is made to be so "hyper-realistic" that there is no room for over half of Batman's villains without MAJOR changes (Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy, Firefly, etc.), and the whole bit with "Oh, my name is Robin *wink*" was just plain mood breaking.
Urg, so very, very true. They just depress me these days. The "Robin" thing made me want to slap the director. :P
No one claimed that being the sole shared universe made the MCU perfect, just unique. My point was that they've accomplished what NO OTHER ART FORM, other than comics, has done, and that is true. However, comics are pretty far from perfect too. For every high point, there is a low point. For every Galactus Saga there was a Mike Murdock. For every
Captain America 2, there was an
Iron Man 3. Sure, the movies have their flaws, but the fact that they managed to make the freaking God of Thunder a successful superhero and put Captain America on screen, tossing his shield around, just like in the comics...do you remember how insurmountable those challenges seemed ten years ago? I still marvel (forgive the pun!) at what the MCU has managed to do, even as I cringe at some of the missteps. It's amazing, and the scope and consistency of that, especially in the chaotic world of Hollywood, is worthy of praise.
Quote from: BentonGrey on August 12, 2015, 11:58:47 PM
Quote from: Tomato on August 12, 2015, 05:01:55 PM
As for the Dark Knight Trilogy... again, I like the films, but perfect movies they were not. The fight scenes are muddled it's hard to see what's going on, the characters spend hours talking about their own motivations, the world is made to be so "hyper-realistic" that there is no room for over half of Batman's villains without MAJOR changes (Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy, Firefly, etc.), and the whole bit with "Oh, my name is Robin *wink*" was just plain mood breaking.
Urg, so very, very true. They just depress me these days. The "Robin" thing made me want to slap the director. :P
No one claimed that being the sole shared universe made the MCU perfect, just unique. My point was that they've accomplished what NO OTHER ART FORM, other than comics, has done, and that is true. However, comics are pretty far from perfect too. For every high point, there is a low point. For every Galactus Saga there was a Mike Murdock. For every Captain America 2, there was an Iron Man 3. Sure, the movies have their flaws, but the fact that they managed to make the freaking God of Thunder a successful superhero and put Captain America on screen, tossing his shield around, just like in the comics...do you remember how insurmountable those challenges seemed ten years ago? I still marvel (forgive the pun!) at what the MCU has managed to do, even as I cringe at some of the missteps. It's amazing, and the scope and consistency of that, especially in the chaotic world of Hollywood, is worthy of praise.
But Benton, Iron Man 3 and Captain America 2 are both great! :P I think you must have meant Iron Man 2...
(http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00406/126166377_iron-man_406735c.jpg)
:(
Quote from: BentonGrey on August 13, 2015, 03:01:36 AM
(http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00406/126166377_iron-man_406735c.jpg)
:(
Did you
want a racist yellow peril villain as the bad guy in a film viewed by millions of people? I would have liked to see the real Mandarin too, but I can understand why they went the route they did, and I especially understand that they wanted to offend as few people as possible. So I don't really see how that's enough to make Iron Man 3 a bad movie.
Iron Man 3 was a mixed bag. I'm not one of the big proponents of the Mandarin thing (I remember posting very vocally why I was fine with him not being around) but the reason I feel it was problematic is that you see this guy, who is larger than life and is a really cool both visually and narratively, and then he's replaced by a nerd who was ticked off at Tony for being the cool kid. We didn't exactly trade up is what I'm saying.
So while I personally thought the fan trolling was hilarious, I'm glad they left the door open for another "Mandarin" since we've gotten more hints of the ten rings even as recently as Ant-Man.
That said, there were other problems with the movie, relating to him blowing up all the armors only to rebuild them and a drone army in the next film, Pepper STILL not getting to be RESCUE even though Downey was pushing it, etc. It's still far better than 2, but it's very forgettable when compared to GotG, Ant Man, and Cap 2.
Kk, as I'm pretty sure I said this back then: Just because a character starts from a bad place doesn't mean they're forever limited to those negative dimensions. Look at the Falcon. Early on, he was given a ridiculously offensive origin, but the character still had potential. Eventually he outgrew those inauspicious beginnings and became something great. The Mandarin has potential too, and there have been plenty of great stories about him that are a lot more than 'Fu Manchu ripoff number 5.' Yeah, they would have had to be careful about adapting him (and personally, I think Kingsley himself would have been a nice start, more's the pity), but it definitely could have been done. They managed to make a WWII flick that wasn't anti-German, and the same types of moves could have worked to secure the Mandarin's position in Asian markets. The key to the issue is, if you're not going to do a character justice, why use them? It just shows contempt for the people who support your work and the source material that's providing you with a job. The Mandarin is one of Iron Man's biggest villains, and that movie certainly didn't do him justice.
'Mato, while I couldn't disagree more with any approval for their 'fan trolling,' as you put it, I certainly agree that Killian, or whatever his name was, was a lousy villain with weak motivation. The movie was haphazard, uneven, and there were way too many plot holes for a Marvel movie.
In retrospect, Iron Man 2 certainly has problems, but I'll take it over 3 all day long.
Dear lord,Mandarin again.Look,he WAS a yellow peril villain when he started,but he hasnt been that for years.Now hes more of a Moriarty to Tonys Sherlock.Look at Invincible Iron Man by Matt Fraction to see what I meant.
^Well, look at that, I'm agreeing with Spade on this thread. ;)
Just his name is offensive. And when you have to change everything about a character to make him palatable to modern audiences, well, how is that different than what Iron Man 3 did? And when you divorce Iron Man 3 from sad feelings about the Mandarin, it's a great movie.
I loved Iron Man 2 though I guess I need to rewatch it to figure out what people don't like about it, but to me 3 is the worst MCU movie by far.
Quote from: Talavar on August 13, 2015, 02:20:39 PM
Just his name is offensive. And when you have to change everything about a character to make him palatable to modern audiences, well, how is that different than what Iron Man 3 did? And when you divorce Iron Man 3 from sad feelings about the Mandarin, it's a great movie.
:rolleyes: Except for all of the movie's many, MANY other problems and plot holes. :P
He's been adapted in more modern stories without changing everything about him, so no, I don't see how drawing from a good Mandarin story and adding a short scene or two showing the Chinese government in a positive light as they resist the villain would be anywhere near what
Iron Man 3 did.
I agree, BWPS. Be warned,
Iron Man 2 doesn't hold up as well upon repeated watchings. It's got some plot holes.
There wouldnt have to change that much about Mandarin,since he isnt offensive in his newer apperences,like I said.We arent counting Silver age or 90s cartoon.
Quote from: BentonGrey on August 13, 2015, 02:26:32 PM
Quote from: Talavar on August 13, 2015, 02:20:39 PM
Just his name is offensive. And when you have to change everything about a character to make him palatable to modern audiences, well, how is that different than what Iron Man 3 did? And when you divorce Iron Man 3 from sad feelings about the Mandarin, it's a great movie.
:rolleyes: Except for all of the movie's many, MANY other problems and plot holes. :P
He's been adapted in more modern stories without changing everything about him, so no, I don't see how drawing from a good Mandarin story and adding a short scene or two showing the Chinese government in a positive light as they resist the villain would be anywhere near what Iron Man 3 did.
I agree, BWPS. Be warned, Iron Man 2 doesn't hold up as well upon repeated watchings. It's got some plot holes.
Let's divorce this from the Mandarin issue - what are all these plot holes? I don't think it's any worse plotted than other MCU movies. Plot summary to follow:
Tony is suffering from some kind of PTSD from the events of Avengers, and copes by building increasingly unlikely or fringe-benefit suits. AIM has a formula to make super-soldiers, which occasionally makes them explode. They create a fake terrorist to take credit for these explosions, both explaining them away, and driving up demand for the super-soldier formula they've created. The head of AIM draws Pepper into his scheme because he's a petty man and hates Tony, leading also to Happy's hospitalization and Tony calling out the fake terrorist. They blow up his house in retaliation, and he is forced to escape in a prototype suit. He researches the backstory of these explosions, which starts leading him to AIM. He takes on some AIM guys without the suit, as the prototype needs to recharge, and discovers the fake terrorist.
Meanwhile, Rhodey is searching for the terrorists, and gets hacked by AIM. Since they did the overhaul from War Machine to Iron Patriot on his suit, this is easily explained (though never explicitly said - not explicitly spelling something out is not a plot hole). They had the opportunity to install any kind of software backdoor at that point. AIM intends to take out the President with their fake terrorist, both driving up demand for government super-soldiers, and putting the VP into place as the president, over whom they have leverage. They kidnap the President, using the Iron Patriot suit as a Trojan Horse.
The suit now recharged, Tony tries to save the president, but is too late. He saves the rest of the people still alive on Air Force One however. He and Rhodey go to save the President, apparently without suits. Jarvis calls to tell him construction workers have cleared the debris from the doors - the doors to his vault full of armours. The armours fly in on remote, and take out the AIM super-soldiers, while Rhodey saves the president and Tony tries to save Pepper, who I have forgotten to mention was injected with the super-soldier formula. He and the AIM head fight, Pepper seemingly dies, only to save Tony by killing AIM guy with the tank-busting forearm missile (as seen in IM1, and earlier in this movie) from a suit of armour. Tony detonates his remaining armours, figures out a way to cure Pepper, and undergoes experimental heart surgery to remove the shrapnel from his chest - while affirming that he is still Iron Man. The End.
As far as plots go, I'd say IM3 was actually tightly plotted in regards to most Marvel movies. Too many have "get the magic rock" as the bulk of their plot (Avengers, Thor 2, Guardians of the Galaxy). The only thing I would consider a possibility is the prototype armour of Tony's needing to recharge. He wears a power source that is supposed to power the armours, after all. I can explain this away by saying it's a prototype, or maybe because it is meant to operate without being on him, it needs its own batteries. That's hardly a damning plot hole without my No-prize attempts, and nitpicking could probably find as bad or worse in every Marvel movie.
So, what plot holes am I missing?
It's funny how people are saying that the Incredibles was a FF movie. Well according to this, Iron Man ripped off the Incredibles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUYW0JyzydA
Iron Man 3 didnt really make much sense.Killian wants to get revenge because Tony didnt meet him on the roof?Dick move for sure,but not worth basing your life around that.
We saw Iron Man suit taking a beating from Thor with barely a scratch,but not it falls apart when a truck hits it?Truck continues driving without any problems,which is even weirder.
Quote from: JeyNyce on August 13, 2015, 04:08:28 PM
It's funny how people are saying that the Incredibles was a FF movie. Well according to this, Iron Man ripped off the Incredibles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUYW0JyzydA
It is actually kind of similar. Hadn't seen that one before. And the president in Rhodey's suit thing is a little weird.
Quote from: Spade on August 13, 2015, 05:14:02 PM
Iron Man 3 didnt really make much sense.Killian wants to get revenge because Tony didnt meet him on the roof?Dick move for sure,but not worth basing your life around that.
We saw Iron Man suit taking a beating from Thor with barely a scratch,but not it falls apart when a truck hits it?Truck continues driving without any problems,which is even weirder.
You know those weren't the same suits, right? The one the truck messes up is a prototype that is shown to be glitchy through the whole movie, and is designed to split up into a bunch of little pieces. Clearly, the bugs aren't all worked out.
The Killian thing -it's responses like this that make me think you're trolling. You're either grossly misrepresenting the movie to suit your point, or don't understand hu-man beings. Killian hates Tony for being everything he's not, and having everything he doesn't. Money, charm, looks, women - they're both smart guys, but Killian at the beginning of the film is a social pariah, while Tony is on his way up to a one night stand with a beautiful woman.
However, he doesn't base his life around revenge on Tony. The whole point of the movie isn't to get Tony, or kill Tony, it's about manipulating the US government and making boatloads of money. Revenge on Tony is a fringe benefit, a stretch goal.
Those other suits in the finale dont do much better jobs.Mooks from Gundam last longer then them.
Thats kinda the impresion you get about Killian from the movie.I havent read Extremis,but apparently he dies at the begining.His role is a lot bigger here,but you kinda get the feeling we wasnt supposed to carry the movie.
Spade you're jumping all over the place. You can't compare Gundam with Iron Man and even though the movie was loosely based on the comic, you know they are going to change it to make it stand on it's own.
Quote from: JeyNyce on August 14, 2015, 12:58:15 PM
Spade you're jumping all over the place. You can't compare Gundam with Iron Man and even though the movie was loosely based on the comic, you know they are going to change it to make it stand on it's own.
Comparison was how suits lasted REALLY;REALLY SHORT.You know those jokes how in Gundam mooks explode even when a shot misses them?? :doh:
Figure of speech.You know like: They were dropping like flys?
About the movie being based on a comic: thats what I said,they changed the story.And thats really all to that.
My bad, It's been a while since I saw Gundam, Color me embarrasses
No problem.
Granted,that was mostly in Wing,but thats not important right now.
Who has the rights to Shi'Ar now?
I would assume fox, since the property is associated with the xmen, and I believe was created in the xmen books.
Yup,James Gunn confirmed it.Fox owns Shi'ar,Badoon,Skrulls and Kang.Are they planing to send X-men to space,I wonder?
http://www.justjared.com/2015/07/11/jon-bernthal-pictured-as-the-punisher-on-daredevil-set/ (http://www.justjared.com/2015/07/11/jon-bernthal-pictured-as-the-punisher-on-daredevil-set/)
Jon Bernthal on the set of Daredevil.In his civilian identity,I guess.
So this was pretty awesome:
https://instagram.com/p/6aSI2yBEWk/
Yea, it looks awesome, but can she act?
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on August 16, 2015, 02:43:29 AM
So this was pretty awesome:
https://instagram.com/p/6aSI2yBEWk/
I like Ronda Rousey, I think she's a great UFC fighter, and I absolutely do not want her as Captain Marvel. This is similar to all those fan WWE castings, like people wanting Triple H for Thor a few years ago, and it's not a good idea. She's been in a couple of movies, sure, but she's not an actor. The fan art is cool though.
Well,phase 3 doesnt look that impresive.No offense to people who like it.I hear Blade and Runaways are in the work for phase 4.Thou we have over 5 years till that.
This is based on...? Because Dr Strange looks ok, Civil War looks really good, and nothing else is far enough along to say that.
Quote from: Tomato on August 18, 2015, 05:51:08 AM
This is based on...? Because Dr Strange looks ok, Civil War looks really good, and nothing else is far enough along to say that.
My personal taste?Okay and Impressive are very different things.
There's really nothing concrete to base phase 3 on. All we have is a list of movies, which can change at any time, and a lot of hype and pics about Civil War. You can't tell if phase 3 is going to be good or not just by those things. I think the best thing to do is to hold judgement until Marvel gives out more information.
My vote for Rowdy Ronda as Ms. Marvel! My only problem is that Carol is so strong that you won't be able to see much of the hand to hand fighting that makes Ronda so dangerous.
^not gonna happen.So not gonna happen.
Quote from: thalaw2 on August 18, 2015, 01:33:18 PM
My vote for Rowdy Ronda as Ms. Marvel! My only problem is that Carol is so strong that you won't be able to see much of the hand to hand fighting that makes Ronda so dangerous.
Found this:
http://www.people.com/article/ronda-rousey-captain-marvel-superheroes-movie-role
I think she would better as Black Carney or the new Thor. At least as BC she can show off her skills. I still want to see Gina Carano play a Super hero
Quote from: JeyNyce on August 18, 2015, 01:50:12 PM
Quote from: thalaw2 on August 18, 2015, 01:33:18 PM
My vote for Rowdy Ronda as Ms. Marvel! My only problem is that Carol is so strong that you won't be able to see much of the hand to hand fighting that makes Ronda so dangerous.
Found this:
http://www.people.com/article/ronda-rousey-captain-marvel-superheroes-movie-role
I think she would better as Black Carney or the new Thor. At least as BC she can show off her skills. I still want to see Gina Carano play a Super hero
BC is DC so maybe Ronda would make a good Mocking Bird. I loves me some Mocking Bird.
I think Mocking Bird already debuted,so thats not gonna happen either.
Please, no athletes as major characters, unless they show they can actually act somewhere first.
I know BC is DC, she should keep her options open.
Is anyone else a bit tired of seeing teenage Spider-man in every adaptation? :unsure:
Why cant we ever get an adult Peter who works as a school teacher?(Please refrain from pointing out how that ended.Thank you)
Quote from: Spade on August 18, 2015, 03:26:12 PM
Is anyone else a bit tired of seeing teenage Spider-man in every adaptation? :unsure:
Why cant we ever get an adult Peter who works as a school teacher?(Please refrain from pointing out how that ended.Thank you)
Because you would have to re-tell the whole story of how he became Spidey and then explained why he was never mention before during all the other Marvel movies. Also I think they want Spidey to be the rookie of the MCU. Back in the day, other heroes always seen him as a kid and I guess they want to project that in to the MCU. I would like to see Spidey grown up and holding his own with Cap and Tony, but it will take a while for the movie to catch up with the comics.
Thats what I was thinking.But yeah,there was never any hope,really.
Spade, I think you missed the point of my question... everyone else was talking about a *fake* picture of a wrestler dressed as Captain Marvel, when suddenly "Yeah, it looks like Phase 3 is gonna be bad." There was no context for the statement, no reason behind it, nothing. In the context of the conversation, it appeared as though you were saying it was gonna suck because of the Captain Marvel thing, which was, again, fake. Since I was pretty sure that wasn't the case, I asked for clarification, because it's entirely possible you were basing that statement on something you had just heard from another website and I was curious what that could be.
The simple fact is, we're WAAAAAAY too early in the game to blow off all of phase 3 based on what we know. Phase 2 had IM3 and Thor 2 as its first outings, and neither was terribly impressive... especially not when compared to CA2, GotG, Avengers 2, or Ant-Man. We don't even have an actress for Captain Marvel yet, let alone any knowledge of how those films are gonna work.
That said... while I understand how everyone is burnt out on Spider-man, I feel like shaming Marvel for it isn't really fair. They can't really tell Sony to stop making Spiderman films on their own, since Sony has a completely separate set of studios and directors to work with that one character. Marvel, on the other hand, is trying to juggle 20+ main characters in one studio, and is doing a lot of movies with ensemble casts as a result. Even with that, we've got Jessica Jones well into production, Captain Marvel is coming 2018, etc.
Really,that again.From the top.
From what I have seen about the movies in P3 Im not impressed.You know,Im not really that excited about it.Nothing cathes my fancy as of now.
I said I would like to see ADULT Spider-man in any adaptation.And thats all.No context.I would like to see Peter Parker as an adult in a movie or an animated show.But like I said chances are very slim at best.
Quote from: Tomato on August 18, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
Spade, I think you missed the point of my question... everyone else was talking about a *fake* picture of a wrestler dressed as Captain Marvel, when suddenly "Yeah, it looks like Phase 3 is gonna be bad." There was no context for the statement, no reason behind it, nothing. In the context of the conversation, it appeared as though you were saying it was gonna suck because of the Captain Marvel thing, which was, again, fake. Since I was pretty sure that wasn't the case, I asked for clarification, because it's entirely possible you were basing that statement on something you had just heard from another website and I was curious what that could be.
The simple fact is, we're WAAAAAAY too early in the game to blow off all of phase 3 based on what we know. Phase 2 had IM3 and Thor 2 as its first outings, and neither was terribly impressive... especially not when compared to CA2, GotG, Avengers 2, or Ant-Man. We don't even have an actress for Captain Marvel yet, let alone any knowledge of how those films are gonna work.
That said... while I understand how everyone is burnt out on Spider-man, I feel like shaming Marvel for it isn't really fair. They can't really tell Sony to stop making Spiderman films on their own, since Sony has a completely separate set of studios and directors to work with that one character. Marvel, on the other hand, is trying to juggle 20+ main characters in one studio, and is doing a lot of movies with ensemble casts as a result. Even with that, we've got Jessica Jones well into production, Captain Marvel is coming 2018, etc.
He hasn't been impressed with any of the MCU. Why be surprised when someone who doesn't like seafood complains about the fish? Someone who's more excited about more Blade movies over Black Panther or Captain Marvel clearly cannot be trusted :P
You didnt read my response,did you?Why the hell do I bother with you people?Your bullies who gang up on everyone who doesnt like the same things like you.
Spade, calm down. I apologize for assuming your comment meant more than it did. I thought that there's no reason you would randomly post a comment dismissing an entire slew of movies in the middle of a conversation that other people were having for no apparent reason, because surely you realize that that's rude. I apologize for thinking that maybe, just maybe, the reason you'd posted had been because of some news no one else had posted yet... and that I was admittedly curious what that could be, especially since the D25 expo was happening and there was news from that.
The fact is, we ALL know your opinion about the Marvel movies. And in and of itself, that's fine. You don't have to like the marvel movies, and you're not wrong to point out the problems in them. But when you make random posts in the middle of conversations JUST to reiterate that you hate what people are discussing... that's rude. You pulled this same nonsense in the Agents of Shield thread, where everyone else was talking about the latter half of the season and all the new developments, and you posted just to say it was stupid based on the 3 episodes you watched. If there's something NEW that you want to express your opinion on, that's all well and good, but randomly posting a negative opinion that has nothing to do with the topic people are discussing is rude, and it's not appreciated.
If you want to complain about the concept art coming out on Dr. Strange, or the fact that CA3 is now doing re-shoots to add more Spiderman, or something that's relevant... yeah, that's a proper point of discussion. But please, for all our sanity, be mindful of proper social etiquette when you post.
Now then, back onto actual news about actual things that happened, a trailer came out of D25 for CA3 (apparently everyone had to put their phones in bags during the whole thing, so no leaked versions as yet) and there's been some Dr. Strange concept art floating around. I'll be honest, I'm not sure about the streaks of gray on Cumberbatch in the concept art... It's something they tried to do for Reed Richards in the previous set of F4 movies, and it looked silly there too.
That said, in more recent news, there's apparently a good reason Hope will not be appearing as Wasp in Civil War... apparently her actress was late into her pregnancy during principle photography. She has, however, been scanned for her superhero costume, so it's a good bet she'll be appearing soon enough.
Quote from: Spade on August 18, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
You didnt read my response,did you?Why the hell do I bother with you people?Your bullies who gang up on everyone who doesnt like the same things like you.
That definitely applies to me. I can't believe you don't like the MCU and I consider you inferior because of it which in turn makes me feel better about myself. Textbook bullying mentality.
There are rumors about Fury MAX movie in the works.
I guess we could either see Nick Fury Sr. or they will move the timeline to ...ehm... newer events. I only mention that because its highly unlikely that current Nick Fury is old enough to have fought in WW2.
There's also been a lot of talk about a potential new Blade project, one based on a similar premise to the upcoming comic, where he has a daughter who's a vampire slayer as well. A lot of sites have reported it as a potential movie, (which I'm curious about, given Marvel's very full slate for the next few years) but it could also be a future tv show.
http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/marvel-abc-comedy-tv-series-damage-control-1201608690/ (http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/marvel-abc-comedy-tv-series-damage-control-1201608690/)
Damage Control will be Marvels new TV show.What an interesting concept. :|
New Wolverine movie might actually be an X-23 movie according to some rumors.Yey?
A Damage Control movie would be funny. It can take place right after the first Avengers movie.
More news from Marvel;
http://comicbook.com/2015/10/08/marvel-announces-three-new-movies-in-2020/
The only bad thing is that they keep pushing back Black Panther and the other Marvel movies. Yes, there is now a phase 4 of the MCU
Quote from: JeyNyce on October 08, 2015, 04:33:28 PM
More news from Marvel;
http://comicbook.com/2015/10/08/marvel-announces-three-new-movies-in-2020/
The only bad thing is that they keep pushing back Black Panther and the other Marvel movies. Yes, there is now a phase 4 of the MCU
Actually, Black Panther is getting pushed forward - it's coming out sooner now, with a February release. I'm sad about Captain Marvel, which is now getting pushed back for the second time, but I enjoyed Ant-man, and look forward to Ant-man and the Wasp.
Quote from: Talavar on October 08, 2015, 11:14:53 PM
Quote from: JeyNyce on October 08, 2015, 04:33:28 PM
More news from Marvel;
http://comicbook.com/2015/10/08/marvel-announces-three-new-movies-in-2020/
The only bad thing is that they keep pushing back Black Panther and the other Marvel movies. Yes, there is now a phase 4 of the MCU
Actually, Black Panther is getting pushed forward - it's coming out sooner now, with a February release. I'm sad about Captain Marvel, which is now getting pushed back for the second time, but I enjoyed Ant-man, and look forward to Ant-man and the Wasp.
On one hand, the one movie with a female lead they had is getting pushed back. On the other, another movie comes with a female in the title but not top billing.
This brings me back to what I was saying before; I don't think Marvel have a set story in mind for their MCU. I think they had one in the past, but since their movies are becoming popular, they are going to expand on it. This must be hard for the writers.
Maybe something Dark Reign related?
There's now a rumor the Inhuman's movie may be canceled, due to heavy use of Inhumans in Agents of SHIELD, plus the fact that the TV and movie series are now controlled by completely different people. When the shift in control of the movie universe around, they neglected to do so for the TV properties, so there is no longer any coordinating control between the two, although they are still trying to be consistent. With that being the case, both doing the same subject matter is going to be nearly impossible to keep consistent.
http://comicbook.com/2015/10/09/bryan-cranston-wants-to-play-a-marvel-villain/ (http://comicbook.com/2015/10/09/bryan-cranston-wants-to-play-a-marvel-villain/)
He could be Crime Master? :)
Take this with a grain of salt, but if this is true, I'm excited for this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqKJSGzEaLs&feature=em-uploademail
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on October 10, 2015, 04:03:37 AM
There's now a rumor the Inhuman's movie may be canceled, due to heavy use of Inhumans in Agents of SHIELD, plus the fact that the TV and movie series are now controlled by completely different people. When the shift in control of the movie universe around, they neglected to do so for the TV properties, so there is no longer any coordinating control between the two, although they are still trying to be consistent. With that being the case, both doing the same subject matter is going to be nearly impossible to keep consistent.
Whether or not this ends up being true, it's being denied at the moment.
It's more or less of Marvel Studios waiting to see how this season of Agents Of SHIELD goes with their full introduction. Since Marvel Studios is pushing for making Inhumans the cinemaverse "mutants" (thanks Fox for making that word taboo) er.. Enhanced then it's really hard to see how even the Royal Family should be handled if something goes south with how fans handle more Inhuman background details within the context of the show. It's NOT canceled or put on indefinite hold just more of keeping it's date locked so enough time can be allowed to expand on the cast or try something different with the movie versions.
- CQ
After some rumors, it has more or less been confirmed that Hulk will show up in Thor 3. It's not as good as a new Hulk film, but it will do for now.
http://screenrant.com/thor-3-mark-ruffalo-hulk-cast/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=19l2Qqf9Evs (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=19l2Qqf9Evs)
Another paint by numbers movie with a disposable villain.Only its sometimes funny.Tiny Iron Man as HT puts it.
Quote from: Spade on December 11, 2015, 06:51:30 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=19l2Qqf9Evs (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=19l2Qqf9Evs)
Another paint by numbers movie with a disposable villain.Only its sometimes funny.Tiny Iron Man as HT puts it.
It's all true, but I still like the movie anyway.... :)
Quote from: JeyNyce on December 11, 2015, 11:53:10 AM
Quote from: Spade on December 11, 2015, 06:51:30 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=19l2Qqf9Evs (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=19l2Qqf9Evs)
Another paint by numbers movie with a disposable villain.Only its sometimes funny.Tiny Iron Man as HT puts it.
It's all true, but I still like the movie anyway.... :)
That is the strange part.It works for some reason.But really something has to be done about the villains.Bryan Cranston said he wanted to play a villain in MCU,so I guess there is some hope.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on October 16, 2015, 09:38:45 AM
After some rumors, it has more or less been confirmed that Hulk will show up in Thor 3. It's not as good as a new Hulk film, but it will do for now.
http://screenrant.com/thor-3-mark-ruffalo-hulk-cast/
I think it's better than a solo Hulk movie, these characters together are often greater than the sum of their parts. I can't wait.
I can understand why people may want a solo Hulk movie, but do we really need one? What would the story be about? I figure that the next Thor movie would explain what happen to Hulk after Age of Ultron. What I really would like to see is a Black Widow/ Hawkeye movie. A movie that would go into their past and how they met. Something like that.
Quote from: JeyNyce on December 11, 2015, 03:03:18 PM
I can understand why people may want a solo Hulk movie, but do we really need one? What would the story be about? I figure that the next Thor movie would explain what happen to Hulk after Age of Ultron. What I really would like to see is a Black Widow/ Hawkeye movie. A movie that would go into their past and how they met. Something like that.
Solo Hulk movie wont happen because-legal issues.
It would be Planet Hulk.Why is that a discussion? :)
I would be all kinds of on board for a Hawkeye/Blackwidow team-up movie! I've been saying since the beginning that they needed to do that, and I think it would be awesome.
A solo Hulk movie could certainly be good, but you'd just need the right story. It doesn't write itself like some of these others.
And yes, Ant-Man is still quite awesome despite its problems, and Darren Cross was at least a little bit interesting. Still, they do need to bring in some better villains, which is sort of crazy, because Marvel has pretty much all the best villains that aren't in Batman's rogue's gallery or named Darkseid. If they had given us an actual Mandarin or given Maleketh some more screen time and development, they could have countered that trend, as both of them are good characters. I'd love to see them dig into their villains a bit more.
Legal issues,again,keep us from a number of villains.And those we have are one dimensional.
From big names I would like to see Kang.Or Mephisto(maybe that Spider-man movie has it covered).Well thats pretty much it from the Marvel Studios owned characters.
Wait,Mephisto was actually introduced as an enemy of Silver Surfer,so Im not sure Marvel owns him.Kang,just Kand.
I'm not sure how they would do it, but I would like to see the Wrecking Crew and Titania, which would a cool way to introduce She-Hulk into the MCU
Has anybody seen the winter final of Agents of SHIELD? It seems like they are getting into magic and mystic stuff. Could this be a setup to get the MCU ready for Doctor Strange?
Tv shows and Movies cant actually crossover because of an internal feud in Marvel.Feige and Perlmutter have issues.That really kill any intention I had about watching the Tv shows.
I'd love to see the Avengers go up against Kang in a movie. However I remember reading that Fox has the movie rights to Kang because of his ties to the Fantastic Four. :(
Bah, they had gotten past this nonsense with Marvel Studios, and now they're miring themselves in legal issues again.
Obviously, the other studio-owned characters were already a problem, but come on, Marvel.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on December 11, 2015, 10:38:51 PM
I'd love to see the Avengers go up against Kang in a movie. However I remember reading that Fox has the movie rights to Kang because of his ties to the Fantastic Four. :(
Fox owns all the cool villains.Maybe,just maybe,if they made a deal about sharing characters like with Quicksilver.
Otherwise,after Thanos,Avengers will be fighting Egghead.I guess there is still Super-Adaptoid,but that wouldnt be much of movie either.
Quote from: Spade on December 11, 2015, 06:03:21 PM
Tv shows and Movies cant actually crossover because of an internal feud in Marvel.Feige and Perlmutter have issues.That really kill any intention I had about watching the Tv shows.
Rumours only. The biggest obstacle to Marvel's movies and TV crossing over is one of scheduling logistics. Network shows film for months at a time with a hiatus, while the Netflix shows and movies film in intensive blocks of time, with reshoots scheduled later for the movies. Any serious plot crossover, like the first season of Agents of Shield, needs significant planning, and lead to most of the first season being boring due to pattern holding. Everything interesting had to be held to the release of the Winter Soldier. The movie actors are contracted for set numbers of films, but TV isn't largely mentioned, so appearances on shows need to be negotiated specifically, and timed to be when the actor is both available, and not filming for a movie.
There have been some crossovers: Nick Fury, Maria Hill and Sif have all been on Agents of Shield, as well as the shadowy council leader from Avengers this season; some plot events on Agents of Shield led up to Avengers 2, and obviously Agent Carter and Howard Stark have been on Agent Carter, along with Dum-Dum Dugan. Luke Cage was on Jessica Jones, as well as Rosario Dawson's character from Daredevil. But I wouldn't hold my breath for Tony Stark or Captain America to show up on any of them. The actors aren't under contract to appear in TV series, they would cost an awful lot for little gain, and they're busy. From Robert Downey Jr's perspective, what reason would he have to appear on a middling to low-rated ABC drama?
Still wouldnt expect Defenders in any movie.Marvel really needs to invest more into TV if they hope to go against DC.I mean Damage Control?Really?30 minutes comedy?
I don't know, Spade, Daredevil all by its lonesome beats all of DC's offerings hollow.
Quote from: BentonGrey on December 13, 2015, 04:37:25 PM
I don't know, Spade, Daredevil all by its lonesome beats all of DC's offerings hollow.
I would argue that Flash is the best superhero show on TV now,but thats not the point here.Point was that Marvel should invest more(in every sense) into TV department.Come on,Damage Control?
Just saying that I would like to see something bigger on TV by Marvel.Like Secret Avengers or Thunderbolts or Superior Foes.I know its not gonna happen,those are just examples.
Quote from: BentonGrey on December 13, 2015, 04:37:25 PM
I don't know, Spade, Daredevil all by its lonesome beats all of DC's offerings hollow.
Agreed.
Quote from: Spade on December 13, 2015, 05:10:18 PM
Quote from: BentonGrey on December 13, 2015, 04:37:25 PM
I don't know, Spade, Daredevil all by its lonesome beats all of DC's offerings hollow.
I would argue that Flash is the best superhero show on TV now,but thats not the point here.Point was that Marvel should invest more(in every sense) into TV department.Come on,Damage Control?
Just saying that I would like to see something bigger on TV by Marvel.Like Secret Avengers or Thunderbolts or Superior Foes.I know its not gonna happen,those are just examples.
What's your hang-up about a proposed Damage Control show? We've already got, or are getting, Agents of Shield, Agent Carter, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and their version of the Defenders. So they're trying something with a different take on superheroes - it's not like there's a shortage of standard ones.
You know,just saying I would like something bigger.All of those are a bit low key.
Quote from: Spade on December 13, 2015, 06:19:09 PM
You know,just saying I would like something bigger.All of those are a bit low key.
In other words, they are all doable on a TV budget. Plus anything really big will be reserved for the movies, since that's where the real money is to be made.
Big stuff for movies, small stuff for TV. That's how it is and how it is going to be.
The Incredible Hulk came on today and I was wonder: How come they never follow up on the story? It seems like the only thing they pulled from that movie was General Ross. They mention the abomination 1 time in another movie, but you don't what happen to Betty or the guy who we all knew that was going to become the Leader, none of it. Was it because the movie wasn't a big hit or the whole thing with Ed Norton and Marvel?
Quote from: JeyNyce on December 13, 2015, 08:01:52 PM
The Incredible Hulk came on today and I was wonder: How come they never follow up on the story? It seems like the only thing they pulled from that movie was General Ross. They mention the abomination 1 time in another movie, but you don't what happen to Betty or the guy who we all knew that was going to become the Leader, none of it. Was it because the movie wasn't a big hit or the whole thing with Ed Norton and Marvel?
The huge part of the problem is with Universal owning the distribution rights with solo Hulk movies which means they have say on how it's promoted and released (plus they some some of the profits in the deal). All of the plot points with Incredible Hulk were put on the back burner after Ruffalo's HULK took off big time in the Avengers films. Joss Whedon and Kevin Feige agreed that Hulk worked so much better as part of the Science Brothers (Banner and Stark) and the love/hate relationship that Hulk and Thor had with each other. They removed Hulk from Captain America: Civil War because he was too powerful (Banner has a cameo but probably just with General Ross) and they had plans with Thor in his third movie dealing with Loki and the Ragnarok storyline so they decided to adjust the storyline to make it a Hulk/Thor team up. Feige has said that he loved the idea of doing a Planet Hulk storyline but it just didn't make sense in the cinematic universe at this time but maybe they could have Banner join Thor on his quest to understand the Infinity Stones and maybe it might lead them into finding his World Breakers to help with Thanos.
The Leader, Abomination, and Betty Ross most likely will get to appear in Avengers Infinity War or somewhere in the Phase 4 films (Universal's distribution rights end in several years so they just might be waiting until they expire to do his next solo film).
- CQ
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on December 13, 2015, 07:25:53 PM
Quote from: Spade on December 13, 2015, 06:19:09 PM
You know,just saying I would like something bigger.All of those are a bit low key.
In other words, they are all doable on a TV budget. Plus anything really big will be reserved for the movies, since that's where the real money is to be made.
Big stuff for movies, small stuff for TV. That's how it is and how it is going to be.
So by that logic,DC should cancel Flash and Arrow and launch Young heroes in love series?Makes sense.
I agree with you here, Flash has shown that big superhero shows are possible on the small screen, and Daredevil and JJ have confirmed you can have them without compromising the MCU's anchor to reality. There's no reason to keep things dialed back. I do like Agents of Shield and Agent Carter a good deal, but I don't want Marvel to keep shying away from putting established superheroes on their network TV shows. Neither of the new spinoffs sound interesting to me, and I'm not sure I want to give them a chance to grow on me the way both Agent shows had to.
Ehh, I know there are a lot of folks who are really loving The Flash, but for my part, I'd say it illustrates the limitations of superheroics on TV. I watched an episode the other day with Atom Smasher and was pretty unimpressed. The acting, the writing, and the effects were all pretty poor. I suppose your mileage will vary, but I'd rather they do what they can do well, which it seems is street-level characters. Still, it seems to me that complaining about not having enough superhero content on TV is a bit silly in this day and age. Haha, we're spoiled for content, some of it truly, unquestionably good. ^_^
Quote from: BentonGrey on December 14, 2015, 04:10:15 PM
Ehh, I know there are a lot of folks who are really loving The Flash, but for my part, I'd say it illustrates the limitations of superheroics on TV. I watched an episode the other day with Atom Smasher and was pretty unimpressed. The acting, the writing, and the effects were all pretty poor. I suppose your mileage will vary, but I'd rather they do what they can do well, which it seems is street-level characters. Still, it seems to me that complaining about not having enough superhero content on TV is a bit silly in this day and age. Haha, we're spoiled for content, some of it truly, unquestionably good. ^_^
When Marvel has telepathic gorillas and man-sharks then I will admit their shows are better.Tuesday night-Flash or Agents of Shield?I know what Im watching.
Daredevil managed to stretch an origin story(it adapts Frank Millers Man without Fear) worth at best 2 episodes to 13 FREAKING EPISODES.Again 13 episode origin story.Not saying it didnt have some good sides,but horrible pacing really runs into ground.
Netflix series had a lot of potential but they sadly wasted it.They were just trying too hard to be grimdark.
Now-what you like isnt really the issue here,the issue was just that DC pays more attention to TV-shows.Not saying every episode should be expensive as a movie,but a little more money and effort would go a long way.For example,wouldnt a show about black ops superhero team(however you name it) be interesting to see?
Except that... no, DC really doesn't. *Greg Berlanti* cares about the TV shows, and it comes through in a show about Green Arrow of all things. *DC* by contrast, won't let the showrunners use half the characters they'd like... despite making a clear break between the movies and TV shows, DC still won't let the Arrowverse use characters and ideas it deems too important for them. Blue Beetle, the Suicide Squad, Green Lantern, etc. are all things DC corporate has either denied the use of or, in the case of the SS, had them remove later on to not conflict with the brand. They're not even allowed to make an offhand reference to Gotham or Batman because Fox owns the rights.
Meanwhile, Agents of Shield wants to have Nick Fury show up? Sure, why not. Daredevil and Jessica Jones want to make repeated references to the Avengers films? Go for it u guys, that's free advertising. Yes, most of the Netflix shows have fewer special effects then Flash, but what they lack in effects, they MORE than make up for in better cinematography, better writing, better acting, better sound work, and better overall stories. And if you bothered to watch more than five episodes of AoS, you'd know the effects on that show are easily comparable to flash, just with less psychic gorillas and more Inhuman monsters that blast holes in people's chests.
Don't get me wrong, I love Flash too (and seriously, Benton, don't let that be your only episode. That was easily one of the weakest in the season, probably in the show), but it has more than it's fair share of flaws... villains of the weak that are often more one-note than MCU villains, special effects that are good for tv, but not great, and it gets bogged down in soap opera-esque drama. It's saved by some fantastic acting with Wells/Zoom, intriguing overall narratives, and a clear love for the world and characters they're playing with... something the DCCU could learn from, frankly. But saying one is better than the other because that one is getting more "attention" is sheer lunacy. Yes, Marvels will they/won't they is annoying sometimes, but I'll take that over DC's flat indifference and absurd character limitations.
If they were connecting the universes like Marvel I'd be ok with it, but they've flat out said they won't do that. And honestly, the one advantage I see to keeping the media separate is that the Arrowverse CAN use Superman, Green Lantern, Blue Beetle, and whoever else they want on the TV shows, where Marvel is limited based on what actors are willing to cameo where.
Daredevil and Jessica Jones want to make repeated references to the Avengers films.
Oh yeah,thats really the proof of good incorporation in the universe. :thumbup:
But if you like your superhero shows grimdark and slow,who am I to stop you in that? ;-)
But seriously now,not saying that DC doesnt have problems,just saying they are doing a better job then Marvel(with some shows),even if Marvel is more marketing savvy.
Quote from: Spade on December 15, 2015, 10:05:31 AM
Daredevil and Jessica Jones want to make repeated references to the Avengers films.
Oh yeah,thats really the proof of good incorporation in the universe. :thumbup:
But if you like your superhero shows grimdark and slow,who am I to stop you in that? ;-)
But seriously now,not saying that DC doesnt have problems,just saying they are doing a better job then Marvel(with some shows),even if Marvel is more marketing savvy.
So on the other hand they shouldn't make grimdark shows (even though the comic Jessica Jones based on is just as dark as the series) and on the other hand, you also think they shouldn't make a light hearted comedy? So they should only make the shows with the tone that you approve of? Bit arrogant there, don't you think?
What's wrong with Marvel shows appealing to different audiences with different tones? The Netflix shows are darker, some of the ones in planning will be light hearted(and Agent Carter already is), and Shield stands somewhere in between. Different tones for different folks. What's wrong with that?
Im rooting to see shows I like?How dare I? <_<
Quote from: Spade on December 15, 2015, 10:21:53 AM
Im rooting to see shows I like?How dare I? <_<
That's fine, but first you say you don't like them doing a comedy, then you say all they are doing is grimdark. That's what we call a contradiction.
In any case, Marvel is not gong to do traditional superhero TV shows. There is way too much money in the movies for them to add any of the big names to television. Furthermore, their TV show experiments, particularly the Netflix shows, have been far too popular and well received for them not to keep doing that. Like it or not, the mass of people is not with you and they are going to market to the mass of people out there.
As for DC, they are trying to mimic Marvel. Flash and Arrow slipped in before they started to do so, or they wouldn't exist either. They aren't doing anything particularly dark at the moment except for maybe Gotham, a show I don't bother to watch, but you still won't see any new big name stuff on DC television unless Batman V Superman flops, and I just don't see that happening.
If both the Flash TV show and movie turn out to be successful because of each other instead of in spite of each other, than you might have a chance. That's the only one I see.
Here we go again...I said I didnt like the idea of low budget show focused on a cleaning crew-words I dont like comedy were never used.There are other titles more deserving of an adaptation.
But anyway,those were just my thought on what I would like to see,I dont really care to dissect EVERY show out there.But your welcome to continue without me.
Maybe if Marvel and Fox continue cooperating,we could see X-Factor investigations,or Alpha Flight or Excalibur in some form(TV,movie,any adaptation).Its never going to happen,but I can hope.
Quote from: Spade on December 15, 2015, 11:22:09 AM
Here we go again...I said I didnt like the idea of low budget show focused on a cleaning crew-words I dont like comedy were never used.There are other titles more deserving of an adaptation.
But anyway,those were just my thought on what I would like to see,I dont really care to dissect EVERY show out there.But your welcome to continue without me.
Maybe if Marvel and Fox continue cooperating,we could see X-Factor investigations,or Alpha Flight or Excalibur in some form(TV,movie,any adaptation).Its never going to happen,but I can hope.
I don't agree with much you've said, but X-factor Investigations would make for a good show.
Deadpool Red Band trailer 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA)
Its so unfunny that you just have to laugh.Then you kinda feel bad for laughing. :blink:
This looks like the kind of movie a 13 year old kid with ADD would write while his parents weren't supervising him. Or in other words, freaking awesome.
Quote from: Spade on December 25, 2015, 05:09:01 PM
Deadpool Red Band trailer 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA)
Its so unfunny that you just have to laugh.Then you kinda feel bad for laughing. :blink:
Ah, I am once again in complete disagreement with you. All is right in the world.
^So cute you think I care about your opinion. ;)
Quote from: Spade on December 25, 2015, 05:09:01 PM
Deadpool Red Band trailer 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA)
Its so unfunny that you just have to laugh.Then you kinda feel bad for laughing. :blink:
WHAT?! Deadpool acting LIKE his comic character IN A FOX movie AND not written by Liefield ?!?! My God, IT WILL BE HORRIBLE!!!! DEADPOOL should be a mercenary with his mouth sewn shut.. oh, wait that was the movie version that sucked AND had him with katanas in his forearms with teleporting and optic blasts.
- CQ
You do know hes actually funny in the comics?At least if Fabian Nicieza is writing him.
Here-jokes are just so unfunny that they are actually hilarious.You do know that feeling right?
Quote from: crimsonquill on December 26, 2015, 06:04:29 AM
Quote from: Spade on December 25, 2015, 05:09:01 PM
Deadpool Red Band trailer 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA)
Its so unfunny that you just have to laugh.Then you kinda feel bad for laughing. :blink:
WHAT?! Deadpool acting LIKE his comic character IN A FOX movie AND not written by Liefield?!?! My God, IT WILL BE HORRIBLE!!!! DEADPOOL should be a mercenary with his mouth sewn shut.. oh, wait that was the movie version that sucked AND had him with katanas in his forearms with teleporting and optic blasts.
- CQ
I think we can all agree Deadpool's (all versions of Deadpool) style of humor is not for everyone and can be an acquired taste. He tends to ride the line between being genuinely funny and being annoying (so much so that in movies, cartoons and games, it's up to the delivery of the actor to sell the material) and his humor also is often crass (including here), and again, that's not everyone's cup of tea. I've always said that it says a lot about someone's sense of humor which writer(s) on Deadpool they prefer.
QuoteYou do know hes actually funny in the comics?At least if Fabian Nicieza is writing him.
Having read a large chunk of DP's comics, I think it really depends on the writer. I was never that impressed with Daniel Way's run (the post 2009 era in general, actually) and always thought the jokes felt forced. I am a fan of Fabian's writing on the character, though personally Simone was always my favorite.
Quote from: Spade on December 26, 2015, 05:55:09 AM
^So cute you think I care about your opinion. ;)
Because everyone here hangs on your every word.
Quote from: BWPS on December 27, 2015, 12:58:35 AM
Quote from: Spade on December 26, 2015, 05:55:09 AM
^So cute you think I care about your opinion. ;)
Because everyone here hangs on your every word.
That's how I work on my upper body parts! :P
^You are so funny you could actually write for this movie.If you dont care why are you starting an argument over it?
Quote from: JeyNyce on December 27, 2015, 03:56:06 AM
Quote from: BWPS on December 27, 2015, 12:58:35 AM
Quote from: Spade on December 26, 2015, 05:55:09 AM
^So cute you think I care about your opinion. ;)
Because everyone here hangs on your every word.
That's how I work on my upper body parts! :P
:thumbup:
That is pretty funny!
Anyway, back on topic, I think this movie will actually be pretty decent, but I was a bit worried about the quality of the cgi for colossus. It should look ok in the finished product, though. I'm also surprised to see how much footage from the test reel they've used. I bet that test reel was not only proof of concept for the producers, but also partway through the movie.
So are there any theories on who the mystery dude that made dead pool is? Related to Stryker in any way?
Considering Ajax is the villain of the movie,take a guess who hes working for?
comicbook.com/2015/12/28/jeff-wadlows-x-force-movie-lineup-revealed/ (http://comicbook.com/2015/12/28/jeff-wadlows-x-force-movie-lineup-revealed/)
We have concept art for X-force movie.There are rumors Cable will debut in Deadpool 2 btw.
Its pretty classic lineup-Cable,Domino,Warpath,Cannonball and...Boom-Boom maybe?
It's not Boom-Boom :( it's Feral. I wish it was Boom-Boom, she was one of my favorites.
www.geek.com/news/exclusive-guardians-of-the-galaxy-2-will-have-one-of-marvels-weirdest-characters-1645069/ (http://www.geek.com/news/exclusive-guardians-of-the-galaxy-2-will-have-one-of-marvels-weirdest-characters-1645069/)
Ego the living planet in Guardians 2. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt6uagFjJsU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt6uagFjJsU)
Kinda the same things I said 2 years ago. XD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrVegVI0Us
Finally!
YES! YEEESSSS!
Quote from: Tomato on March 10, 2016, 05:55:01 PM
YES! YEEESSSS!
I can see Tomato waiting for the action figure to come out
Well... maybe not. Don't get me wrong, I love how they're showcasing him, but that costume... it's meh. The eyes are cool and I like the cleaner look to it, but ASM2's was pretty much perfect.
I am hoping my high expectations for this film aren't a prelude to a letdown. Odd characterizations and some other silliness aside, Marvel took on a conflict between some pretty powerful ideas with the Civil War comic. I am certainly not saying that the conflict would happen just like in the comics, but I am saying that that conflict definitely
would happen.
It would be a major task to give a coherent treatment of the issues at stake in a couple hours if one could have professors laying them out in the most articulate possible terms. My best guess is that the Civil War movie also plans to
- introduce new characters
- pit established teammates against one another over their practical and philosophical principles
- depict epic superpowered battles, and
- develop a motivating subplot, possibly involving some misdirection
And, the movie plans to do those things while leaving the MCU intact for the ongoing continuity.
Part of me thinks Marvel is really biting off more than I can reasonably expect any movie to chew. Yet, somehow, I am kind of believing they can do it. :)
I would like to see a big disaster at the end and the reminding heroes form the New Avengers while some go on their way and Marvel start to introduce a second wave of heroes......or at least a cameo from the Marvel Knights (netflix)
Well, that looks great....but, while I'm really holding onto faith in Marvel movies, I am still worried about this whole thing. I'm still really excited, but this whole plot could so easily go bad. I just want my heroes to be friends. As long as this journey ends with something good, I'll be happy, but I am concerned.
https://youtu.be/PfBVIHgQbYk (https://youtu.be/PfBVIHgQbYk)
New trailer for X-men.
The film was screened for the press and Marvel decided to drop the embargo almost immediately. Reactions have been very ethusiastic, with many saying the film is what Batman v Superman should have been.
http://screenrant.com/captain-america-civil-war-reactions/
I'm very encouraged and not very surprised by this. :D My favorite comment has to be this:
"this movie plays like a repudiation of BATMAN V SUPERMAN. A devastating reply."
That's fantastic, and I imagine once again Marvel is going to show the world how to make a superhero movie. It's a crying shame that WB just refuses to learn from their example. At least someone is working to give the world a better class of hero.
I'm really excited because, as I said, I was a little concerned about this movie. The fact that it seems to be tons of fun, in addition to a good story, that makes me really happy. I'm hoping that this will be worthwhile when the dust settles.
Word is now that they are dropping the full review embargo on the 13th, at the same time they are doing a major early screening. This is nearly a month ahead of release, which is very unusual. To say they are highly confident of the movie is putting it rather mildly.
This is very encouraging. Muzzling reviews is rarely a good sign, not that the Marvel Studio films have ever done that, though this will be early even for them. Batman v Superman not having any reviews until a couple of days before release was an early warning bell.
It's been stated by those who have seen that film that Spiderman is in about 30 minutes of it. 10 as Peter and 20 in costume.
Him and Black Panther are being heavily praised by those who have seen it.
I'm super excited about Black Panther. I can't wait until we get a Panther solo film, too. :)
Full reviews have started to appear.
http://screenrant.com/captain-america-civil-war-reviews-preview/
This one seems to say it very well.
QuoteThe shaming of "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" will continue apace — or better still, be forgotten entirely — in the wake of "Captain America: Civil War," a decisively superior hero-vs.-hero extravaganza that also ranks as the most mature and substantive picture to have yet emerged from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Very much an "Avengers" movie in scope and ambition if not title (the conspicuous absence of Thor and Hulk notwithstanding), this chronicle of an epic clash between two equally noble factions, led by Captain America and Iron Man, proves as remarkable for its dramatic coherence and thematic unity as for its dizzyingly inventive action sequences; viewers who have grown weary of seeing cities blow up ad nauseam will scarcely believe their luck at the relative restraint and ingenuity on display.
I note that all of them that I see has indicated that neither side is portrayed as being the good guys or the bad guys. They both have good and bad points.
This aleviates the major concern of mine.
Hey-hey! That's very encouraging! I'm getting more excited! :D
I particularly enjoy the BvS bashing. :lol:
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on April 13, 2016, 09:23:54 PM
Full reviews have started to appear.
http://screenrant.com/captain-america-civil-war-reviews-preview/
This one seems to say it very well.
QuoteThe shaming of "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" will continue apace — or better still, be forgotten entirely — in the wake of "Captain America: Civil War," a decisively superior hero-vs.-hero extravaganza that also ranks as the most mature and substantive picture to have yet emerged from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Very much an "Avengers" movie in scope and ambition if not title (the conspicuous absence of Thor and Hulk notwithstanding), this chronicle of an epic clash between two equally noble factions, led by Captain America and Iron Man, proves as remarkable for its dramatic coherence and thematic unity as for its dizzyingly inventive action sequences; viewers who have grown weary of seeing cities blow up ad nauseam will scarcely believe their luck at the relative restraint and ingenuity on display.
I note that all of them that I see has indicated that neither side is portrayed as being the good guys or the bad guys. They both have good and bad points.
This aleviates the major concern of mine.
So no Fuehrer Stark is what you're saying here?
The reviews I've read so far are basically raves. I couldn't be more excited for this to come out!
http://deadline.com/2016/04/spider-man-homecoming-sony-cinemacon-presentation-1201736748/ (http://deadline.com/2016/04/spider-man-homecoming-sony-cinemacon-presentation-1201736748/)
Upcoming Spider-man movie is titled Homecoming.How meta.
Seeing the track record so far; and given that they are getting an ongoing and have appeared in Avengers Assemble,could it be that Marvel is preping Thunderbolts for a movie?
Quote from: Spade on April 18, 2016, 06:19:50 AM
Seeing the track record so far; and given that they are getting an ongoing and have appeared in Avengers Assemble,could it be that Marvel is preping Thunderbolts for a movie?
If so, who would actually be in it? I'd love to see the classic line-up, but most of them haven't actually shown up in the movies yet. What's the point of them being Supervillains attempting to reform if we haven't actually seen them be Supervillains?
Quote from: Spade on April 18, 2016, 06:19:50 AM
Seeing the track record so far; and given that they are getting an ongoing and have appeared in Avengers Assemble,could it be that Marvel is preping Thunderbolts for a movie?
It could definitely be interesting, but given that most of the classic Thunderbolts characters have yet to appear as villains in the MCU, would they introduce all those characters at once, or sub in some of the villains already in play? And which version of the Thunderbolts would we get? The villains playing at being heroes, former villains seeking redemption, or a state-sanctioned program not unlike the Suicide Squad? At various times, the Thunderbolts have been all of those things.
If I had to guess it would probably be a "government sanctioned" team.Like the Dark Reign era Thunderbolts.Maybe the authorities decide to adopt a harsher approach after Civil War.IDK,but I know that whenever somebody got a major push,they showed up in a movie.Or a TV show.
Quote from: Spade on April 18, 2016, 02:43:34 PM
If I had to guess it would probably be a "government sanctioned" team.Like the Dark Reign era Thunderbolts.Maybe the authorities decide to adopt a harsher approach after Civil War.IDK,but I know that whenever somebody got a major push,they showed up in a movie.Or a TV show.
If that turned out to be the case, what characters are around for them to use? I've always felt it a little weird we've never heard or seen anything about the Abomination, who is presumably sitting locked away somewhere. What other MCU villains could be potential members? I'm having trouble thinking of too many options right now.
Quote from: Talavar on April 18, 2016, 02:53:07 PM
What other MCU villains could be potential members? I'm having trouble thinking of too many options right now.
They could lift some from "Agents of SHIELD": Absorbing Man, Angar, Graviton, et. al.
Quote from: Talavar on April 18, 2016, 02:53:07 PM
If that turned out to be the case, what characters are around for them to use? I've always felt it a little weird we've never heard or seen anything about the Abomination, who is presumably sitting locked away somewhere. What other MCU villains could be potential members? I'm having trouble thinking of too many options right now.
Actually, Abomination was discussed in one of the Marvel Shorts contained on the Thor DVD called "The Consultant". He's revealed to be in General Ross' custody.
I could see Baltroc, since he's relatively low level and everything. That said... I suspect the rolling out of the Thunderbolts isn't so much about a current team, as much as it is A. Marvel getting them out there before Suicide Squad comes out and they're accused of ripping off that team later down the line, and B. Because Baron Zemo is set up in Civil War.
Quote from: Tomato on April 18, 2016, 03:33:11 PM
I suspect the rolling out of the Thunderbolts isn't so much about a current team, as much as it is A. Marvel getting them out there before Suicide Squad comes out and they're accused of ripping off that team later down the line, and B. Because Baron Zemo is set up in Civil War.
That could be it. It's also possible Marvel Studios has decided against a Thunderbolts film and cleared the team for use in Avengers Assemble.
That said I think Thunderbolts has to be on Marvel Studios' radar. It's a long running comic that could be successful as a film with the right direction (like Guardians). Considering all the iterations the comic has gone through it's a versatile property - it could be their answer to the Suicide Squad. It would be difficult to pull off the classic twist as there's currently no Masters of Evil and you need something like the missing heroes caused by Heroes Reborn to make that plot work. So I think something leaning towards the Osborn or Cage eras where villains were forced to work as heroes by the government would make the most sense (ie Suicide Squad). But knowing Marvel Studios it will probably be a hybrid of some kind.
As for existing MCU characters who could appear:
Hawkeye, Luke Cage, and Zemo have all lead the Thunderbolts in the comics.
Blizzard, Batroc, Nuke, Crossbones, Mister Hyde, Red Hulk, Elektra, and the Punisher were all members at one point.
Graviton was a notable adversary in the comics as well.
Other villains from the MCU that might make sense:
Abomination, Whiplash (is he still alive?), Absorbing Man
Then the next set of films could introduce some characters. Moonstone would be a good fit in Captain Marvel. For Black Panther, Klaw has a connection to Songbird (Angar from Agents of Shield also has a connection). Goliath (Atlas) or Eric O'Grady would be logical fits for Ant-Man and the Wasp. Beetle, Venom, Shocker, Boomerang, Speed Demon and Osborn could all appear in Spider-Man Homecoming, though I'm not clear if they can be used in other MCU movies. Genis-Vell could appear in Guardians Vol 2 or Infinity War. Bullseye could appear in the next Daredevil.
And they could easily introduce some of the members in a Thunderbolts movie itself. Suicide Squad is introducing most (technically all) of it's cast so it's possible. How much introduction does Fixer really need? ;)
Not sure if AA has the clause of not using MCU characters.Ultron and all.
Maybe they could be somewhat like Liberators from Ultimates 2.Like a superteam assembled by other countries as a counter to Avengers.
A stumbling block I see in regards to a lot of these characters--Marvel Studios Film and TV sections still don't play that nice with each other. Characters, etc., have moved from film to tv, but I don't think anything has gone the other way yet. Of all the villains named so far, only Abomination, Crossbones, Zemo and Batroc are alive and in the hands of the film division, and Crossbones and Zemo are both in Cap 3, so their fate is up in the air at the moment.
Now, as noted, the characters don't have to all be carry-overs. New ones can be introduced in the film itself, and in other upcoming movies. I do feel the property is too interesting to stay dormant at Marvel for long.
And next year is the 20th anniversary of the team so it would be the perfect time...
A lot of guessing on my part,but Im sure they wouldnt revive the concept if they didnt have something planed. Sure,its not Inhumans level push,but its much more then last year,for example.
After being delayed already, the Inhumans movie has officially been bumped from Marvel's release schedule, presumably to help make room for sequels to Doctor Strange, Black Panther and/or Spider-man. Some are theorizing that the Inhumans movie will never happen at all now, a victim of interdepartmental wrangling between the film and TV divisions.
If that does end up being the case, I can't say that I find it too upsetting. The Inhumans have never really taken off, and while the right film maker could maybe have done something interesting, I think there are other Marvel properties I'd rather see hit the big screen.
Hmm...I don't have any strong feelings about that. While I'd love to see the classic Inhuman royal family, and I think that could prove to be a really cool movie, there are other characters that I'd like to see more. I'm probably most excited about seeing a Black Panther movie!
What,despite all the shilling?
There is only one possible story to tell with them anyway.Unless Marvel gets back ALL their cosmic characters or something.
The producers have spoken about their casting of the Ancient One, for which they have been heavily criticized and accused of whitewashing. They said they were in a no-win situation. If they has gone with making him Tibetan, China would have banned the film. If they had made him Chinese instead, that would have offended an entirely different group of people. So they had to offend someone basically. And they probably have a good point. China bans anything that even hints at Tibet being a thing and siding with them on that issue would have been bad too. This is probably the best of they could have done.
http://screenrant.com/doctor-strange-ancient-one-whitewash-china/
It okay if they offend someone,as long as its not somebody important? ;)
Quote from: Spade on April 24, 2016, 05:40:40 PM
It okay if they offend someone,as long as its not somebody important? ;)
Well, no, what they are saying is that it's not okay, but nomatter what they do, they were going to offend someone. They probably went with the most financially viable option. Americans have a habit of getting offended about stuff then shelling out billions for the thing they were offended about anyway. Many of parts of the world are single-racial anyway, so they aren't as likely to care this change since diversity isn't even a thing with them.
And China is the second largest movie market,and is quick to ban everything...
Well yeah, that is why not offending China is high on their list.
There's a fictional news channel on Youtube now featuring in-universe stuff leading up to Civil War.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtJkDqZzoOFYbqwOIFn2Lng
EDIT: Apparently they've been around for a while and have done other Marvel films, but the last two videos are Civil War specific.
That's very interesting, Cat. I suppose from that point of view, I'm sad they DIDN'T cast someone Tibetan (if such an actor could be found). Of course, you're right in that doing so would be financial suicide for anyone hoping to sell a film in the world market, of which China is a huge slice.
Hmm, I'm going to have to watch these videos! I see they've got interviews with "Scott Lang" and "Darren Cross!" How neat!
For the record, I'm happy to say those Ant-Man videos were included on the Ant-Man blu-ray, which is how I saw them. Haven't watched the others, I'll have to put them on some time.
I know its 1-2 months old news,but Sony is developing a Venom movie?
If Marvel is involved, that could be awesome. In fact, I would LOVE to see an Agent Venom movie specifically. If they're doing it on their own, history indicates trouble.
Only info is that Dante Harper is writing the script.Does that mean anything to anyone?
http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/684467-sharon-stone-to-appear-in-a-marvel-movie (http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/684467-sharon-stone-to-appear-in-a-marvel-movie)
Marvel Studios films have now made 10 billion dollars.
That's a lot of change.
They deserve every penny as far as I'm concerned. I can't think of many other movies that make me laugh at completely unfunny parts just because I'm enjoying myself so much. And then they continuously find ways to top themselves. What a time to be alive, I'll keep throwing money at them as long as I can.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 16, 2016, 12:05:40 AM
Marvel Studios films have now made 10 billion dollars.
That's a lot of change.
The MCU is (and actually has been for awhile) the most financially successful movie franchise ever, which is pretty damn impressive. I mean, James Bond beats them if you correct for inflation, but still....
Gladiator Hulk confirmed for Thor 3. The armor is on display at Comic Con.
http://screenrant.com/thor-ragnarok-gladiator-hulk-armor-comic-con/
Hmm...that is...interesting. I'm not quite sure what to make of that.
There so many news,whos going to list them all?Im just skipping to reactions.
Im cool with Brie Larson as Captain Marvel.Black Panther seems to be a regular MCU movie about a hero fighting his evil counterpart.Killmonger played by Michael B Jordan.
Homecoming might be going overboard with 3 villains.And Kurt Russel is Ego the Living Planet.
Quote from: Spade on July 25, 2016, 05:00:43 AM
There so many news,whos going to list them all?Im just skipping to reactions.
Im cool with Brie Larson as Captain Marvel.Black Panther seems to be a regular MCU movie about a hero fighting his evil counterpart.Killmonger played by Michael B Jordan.
Homecoming might be going overboard with 3 villains.And Kurt Russel is Ego the Living Planet.
Can you elaborate on the Spider-man villains? I only heard about Vulture? Otherwise, I'm cool with the rest of the news.
Toy solicitations confirmed Shocker and Tinkerer.How large are their roles,we dont know yet.
There was some more castings announced,but nothing to really comment.
Quote from: Spade on July 25, 2016, 01:41:59 PM
Toy solicitations confirmed Shocker and Tinkerer.How large are their roles,we dont know yet.
There was some more castings announced,but nothing to really comment.
To play Devil's Advocate, toy solicitations can be flat out BS. I know they do get it right sometimes, but for every Lego Giant-man there's a lego Mandarin.
Well,its possible anyway.And not the Mandarin thing again...
Quote from: Spade on July 25, 2016, 05:18:46 PM
Well,its possible anyway.And not the Mandarin thing again...
I just meant that Lego sets showed some very different villain set-pieces for Iron Man 3 than existed in the movie, in contrast to Civil War, which lego largely got correct.
I got you.Just saying it could happen based on a previous case.Of Civil War.
And btw,they should really do something with the real Mandarin plot.If there were any plans to do something with that.
Quote from: Talavar on July 25, 2016, 05:44:56 PM
Quote from: Spade on July 25, 2016, 05:18:46 PM
Well,its possible anyway.And not the Mandarin thing again...
I just meant that Lego sets showed some very different villain set-pieces for Iron Man 3 than existed in the movie, in contrast to Civil War, which lego largely got correct.
A lot of that comes from the merchandisers getting early copies of the storyline and concept art which can radically change during the film process. During Phase One and the early part of Phase Two they still were hammering out the "big plan" which usually left a lot of stuff vague and toy designers just ran with their own ideas of what they thought MIGHT happen. I highly doubt that the director Shane Black wanted anyone to know his "plot twist" so the toy folks just took what they had and figured that he would have some big event battle and ran with it. In fact I heard quite a few MCU fans admit that the LEGO toys probably had a better concept for the ending then the CGI fest of suits we ended up with so it all could be made pointless by the credits.
- CQ
Looks like Hulu ordered a Runaways series.Interesting.
(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13939543_10154400189732403_8424911635982168265_n.jpg?oh=031690fa9305302806a261ac145a92d9&oe=584A54BB)
First official poster for Homecoming.
I'm curious about the Runaways show. They're the kids of supervillains, but supervillains are still a pretty rare thing in the MCU, so I'll be interested to see how they play the setup and connections to the MCU at large. I imagine a lot will have to change.
In before fan rage concerning the recent Mary Jane announcement to say I'm actually super stoked about it an all ya'll haters gonna hate
Quote from: Tomato on August 19, 2016, 03:30:07 AM
In before fan rage concerning the recent Mary Jane announcement to say I'm actually super stoked about it an all ya'll haters gonna hate
Nope, I'm on board too.
(http://s2.favim.com/orig/140627/ehh-girl-grunge-hipster-Favim.com-1869412.jpg)
Who cares at this point?
Quote from: Tomato on August 19, 2016, 03:30:07 AMIn before fan rage concerning the recent Mary Jane announcement to say I'm actually super stoked about it an all ya'll haters gonna hate
(http://www.stumpyanker.com/emoticons/sleep1.gif) If the presumed controversy is about what I suspect it's about, count me among those who don't care one way or the other. I am not familiar with Zendaya's work, but my baseline for a live-action Mary Jane was Kirsten Dunst's portrayal, so it won't take much to do better, IMO.
Quote from: Talavar on August 19, 2016, 04:09:17 AM
Quote from: Tomato on August 19, 2016, 03:30:07 AM
In before fan rage concerning the recent Mary Jane announcement to say I'm actually super stoked about it an all ya'll haters gonna hate
Nope, I'm on board too.
It's not that I or anyone else is technically "off board" but I think it's the acknowledgment of the problem is what we seek. It's nothing against Zendeya and I'm sure her and Holland will be completely adorable kids on screen. To that point very few batted an eyelash when she was announced. Only now that she's filling the role of probably the most notable redhead in comics does this make news. But there was a reason why Kirsten Dunst wore red in Raimi films. It would be different if this was Betty Brant or even Felicia Hardy. But like a Valkyrie before her or Johnny Storm or going back to Aquaman. It isn't a racial problem because I honest think people care more in those cases than a Deadshot or MCD's Kingpin or Jonn Jonzz. In those cases those characters don't have specific characteristics of them that are essentials to the character. It's just pretty wonky. And as a minority myself I really don't feel it's necessary to shoehorn ethnicities on characters seemingly just for the sake of diversity. I know I've said it before, but Marvel's big budget blockbusters STARTED with a ethnic character. Their next series will have an black lead with a majority black cast. Now the next movie they're making will feature similar. This is on top of the Anthony Mackies, Hallie Barrys, Sam Jacksons they've already featured in starring roles in blockbusters. I don't think people are saying "man I like Marvel but they need to appeal more to minorities by casting Zendeya." I mean sure, I'm not gonna complain if they want to put more minority faces in movies and tv, that's reflective more of my life and real life in general. But it's just an inescapable feeling that it's being done not to find an actress to play a role but an actress to appeal to an audience, particularly when it isn't really necessary. And THAT'S the rub.
Maybe just me...
Quote from: Talavar on August 18, 2016, 06:52:50 PM
I'm curious about the Runaways show. They're the kids of supervillains, but supervillains are still a pretty rare thing in the MCU, so I'll be interested to see how they play the setup and connections to the MCU at large. I imagine a lot will have to change.
Yeah,but their parents were original characters created for the series,so I dont see a problem with the lack of supervillains this time.And I imagine it will be contained in its own bubble like the Netflix shows.
A couple points here
-First, you're basing a lot of your argument on the fact that this is a Marvel Movie. It's not. It's a Sony film with Marvel's involvement. On that front, across all the Spiderman films (Raimi and Webb) how many black characters do you remember? Because offhand, I can remember all of two: Robbie Robertson (who didn't do much compared to the comics) and Max Dillon (who got zero character development and was turned blue anyway). So while you can point to a lot of racial diversity in Marvel Studios films, Sony isn't really on the same page. They've lagged behind Marvel, DC, and Fox in terms of representation for over a decade.
-Second, the director of Homecoming has gone on record stating that he is very specifically trying to get more diversity into the cast because Peter Parker lives in Queens. It makes ZERO sense that a high school set in Queens would feature mostly white students, and that every single character highlighted would be white.
-Third, and most important... I feel like the casting is based more on the spirit of the character than on appearance. Durst may have been a picture perfect Mary Jane as far as appearance, but in terms of character, she was just AWFUL. In my mind, Mary Jane was always the spunky neighbor who knew exactly who she was and what she wanted. Just based on what little I know about Zendaya, she'll make a FAR better Mary Jane Watson than Durst ever did.
-Fourth, we don't know she won't have Mary Jane's iconic red hair. Yeah, it may not be "natural" but neither was Durst's hair. And it's not like it'd be that out of place either... I've worked with several WoC who dyed their hair various shades of red, it's not uncommon.
What was the Mary Jane announcement?
So, they aren't going to have Mary Jane in the new Spidey flick? That's fine; they've already done her in a movie. I would definitely prefer it if they didn't call the new character Mary Jane, though, if they don't want her in their movie. :P
Seriously though, this is the same old thing, but, I'd say, it's actually more of an issue with MJ. She's almost archetypal as the 'fiery redhead with a mind of her own.' Her appearance, like every comic characters' appearance, is part of who she is, but it is arguably more of an integral element than most of those they've race-switched over the years. This is the same conversation, though. It is an issue, part of the disregard for source material that otherwise sends folks up the walls. Is it enough to ruin a movie? Of course not. Can the actress still do a fine job? Of course. Is it just as good overall as a faithful adaptation of that character? I'd say no. It is hardly everything, but it is also not nothing.
It also just strikes me as lazy. If you want diversity in your cast, why don't you actually create some diverse characters? You don't want Spidey's love interest to be white? Fine. I think an interracial relationship would be a good thing, speaking about the medium at large. So, make a new character. Make your own character. That's what you do when you want to innovate. I'm reminded of a Jack Kirby quote on that subject...I wish I could remember how it went.
Shogunn, good points, well said.
Okay, first thing's first: Despite what you all may have heard, there has NOT been an official announcement that MJ is going to even be in the movie, much less so that she's going to be played by someone who ain't a red head. On top of that, the actress who which has been purported to be playing MJ is actually playing a new character named Michelle, so that's thrown right out the window. And last but not least, there has been an image of part of an official cast list, and while some of Peter's other girlfriends like Liz Allen and Betty are on it, MJ is nowhere to be seen. (Though Z(endeya) is; just as Michelle.) Read 'em and weep:
https://imgur.com/NMXDOdJ
So yeah, now you know. (And knowing's only half the battle!)
It's not just it being a Marvel movie. I specifically pointed out Blade and X-Men as franchises that didn't need to do what they're doing. Benton is right. If you want a diverse cast, then just have more diverse characters. Or even do it in a way it would seem less conspicuous. Again, if you want a more diverse cast I'm all for it. Like you said, it makes sense in 2017 Queens.
But this seems like that.
Again the character is known for having a particular look. Say what you will about Dunst and her acting ability but it isn't uncommon to see a white girl with red hair. Now I've been around hundreds of black women in my life and having red hair is far from a natural occurrence. So much to the extent it can look completely unnatural(ie giving Jamie Fox a combover???) I mean they can go the Rihanna route but why would you feel the need to do that?
Like Benton said it seems lazy and just being extra when you don't even have to. Why can't she me Mia Watson or Maria Watson or Malyia Watson?
Again, if you want a diverse cast, that's completely fine. Audiences will watch. But this just seems like you're not only ignoring the source material but purposely changing it when it ain't really that necessary. Again, from the perspective of a minority I would rather have our OWN characters than a changed character just to seemingly fit a demographic represtation.
Shogunn, it's interesting to hear from a person who is part of a minority yet who has your views on this subject. I especially like your last point. I can see that.
Well, if, as Kk says, this is a none issue, great.
For clarification, this is the article (http://www.thewrap.com/zendaya-spider-man-homecoming-role-reveal-mary-jane-watson/) that discussed her actually being Mary Jane Watson. The article brings up the cast list Kkhohoho mentioned, but according to them multiple sources involved in the process have confirmed that this was a subterfuge and that she is playing Mary Jane Watson. It's not OFFICIAL confirmation, sure, but the lack of more significant love interests in the cast list seems suspicious anyway. Plus, that cast list has some awful big gaps in it... even ignoring the fact that the numbers aren't sequential (it skips from 1 to 8) there are several additions to the cast we know about that are not on that list, and the fact that several cast members are listed only by initials means the list was made with leaks in mind.
As far as "oh, just create a new character" goes... yes, let's add yet another love interest to Peter Parker's growing gaggle of girlfriends, see how long that sticks. The reality is, only 3 love interests have had any real staying power in the Spider-Man books: Mary Jane, Gwen Stacy, and Black Cat (and even that last one is a stretch). Peter's been in dozens of other relationships, but they never last and very few people care about them at all. Mary Jane was his wife for over a decade, she's been in every cartoon and over half the movies that have come out since the 90s. It's her name joe schmoe on the street knows as Spider-Man's love interest, and creating a brand new one after we JUST had Gwen Stacy muddying the waters for people is just going to confuse the poor sheepy brains of the mass market.
The reality is, I don't care what a person's race is, so long as the character is done properly. It doesn't matter one single iota whether Mary Jane is Black, Asian, Latino, White, or Purple. I care a HELL of a lot more about getting her personality right, and that's something Durst NEVER EVER did for me. So yeah, casting an actress who clearly has chemistry with Tom Holland and seems to be a much better fit for the character? Cool, I'm down with it.
Me, I see this as no different as one of the 2000 Spider-Verse universes out there. Spiderman might be white in 616 and others, but there's several where he's black, where he's japanese, and even at least one where he's indian. And yet, in each of those world, most of the general attributes of the Peter Parker character are kept in place... So why can't the same be true of his supporting cast?
(Speaking of whom, even if the MJ thing isn't true, Ned Leads, Flash THompson, and Liz Allen are ALL non-white actors. MJ being black isn't that far from left field)
I did see a rather good point that the racial makeup of New York has changed since Spider-Man debuted and it makes sense to update that to fit in with what the city actually looks like now.
Which is, I suppose, a rather decent point. Spider-Man was supposed to be a believable character set in a realistic version of our world and it is odd in this day and age that nearly everyone he has regular contact with in New York is white. I'm normally against arbitrary changes, but I see the point.
@Tomato,I think the general audience isnt that stupid as you give them credit.If people can figure out this is the third Spiderman reboot in 10 years,they could figure out that Spiderman has a new love interest.
I take your point, Spade, that the audience isn't going to be especially confused by Peter having a new girlfriend who isn't Mary Jane or Gwen. I am not sure that Tomato was saying that audience confusion was the issue, but I agree that they could deal with it.
However, I think that changing the girlfriend entirely would be seen as a much bigger departure from canon than just ethnic background. That is, I think that the people who are concerned with keeping the movies more or less in line with the comics would be even more upset if movie Peter's new love interest isn't even one of the known ones from comics. I mean, change MJ's ethnic background and she's still MJ and there really isn't any substantial change to the Spider-Man corner of the Marvel universe (Sony version). But, make it so that Peter's steady GF is now some unknown instead of MJ or Gwen, and that's a more substantial change.
Think of it this way, if a Spidey movie had Peter dating Elektra, comics fans would blow a gasket, a la, "What the...!??!? These clowns don't even know what character they're filming!" I think Spidey dating a new unknown would be seen as a lesser affront, but an error in that same direction, where the film isn't even paying attention to who is who in the Marvel dramatis personae.
From what I've read, it sounds like Zendaya is playing MJ, but but not "Mary Jane." Her credit listing as Michelle isn't wrong, just misleading. If this is true, she's halfway between a new character and just race-swapping an existing one.
I guess from my perspective I fail to see why this is always such a big deal. On the one hand, this has been going on forever, and we have discussed ad nauseum times where it's benefited the films (Idris Alba, Sam Jackson, etc). On the other, it is absolutely asenine for people to complain that "MJ isn't like that in the comics!" when I can point you to comics where MJ is a waterbuffalo, not to mention several realities where she's a brunette. They've said from the planning stages of the latest SM films that each set of films is its own universe, so why do different rules apply to film universes than they do to alternate universes in the comics?
Yeah,we did have this talk way too many times,but that's kinda not the point now.Point is that the movie would probably function all the same no matter is it Mary Jane or Michelle.And yes,there are probably hundreds of reasons why they went with MJ,but "to avoid confusing the audience" is probably the weakest of them all.
The 'it's the same character' argument is flawed in my estimation. As soon as you change a core aspect of a character, they cease to BE that character, and race is a pretty central aspect of someone's identity, whether it's obvious or not. Of course, the whole 'appearance is character' element of comics also comes into play here. Nonetheless, 'Mato's argument about alternate realities and different versions of the characters doesn't work for me, as you still recognize that this is not, say, Nick Fury, this is ULTIMATE Nick Fury. This isn't Superman, it's ANTI-MATTER Superman. They are different characters, even if they share the same name. That's sort of the entire point. Sometimes the differences are subtle, sometimes they are major, but they add up to a new character. It's in the basic foundation of modern comics, with the reinvention of the Golden Age in DC. Those were all NEW characters, even when they had many of the same qualities as their predecessors.
I don't think that anyone is saying that this is "such a big deal," but it does matter, at least a little. As I said, it is hardly everything, but neither is it nothing. The way I look at it, once again, as I've said before, is that this is a point against an adaptation. It is hardly a major strike, and it can certainly be overcome, sometimes simply by the amazing job the actor/actress does (Idris Elba, etc). Still, it is a little mark against the faithfulness and thereby effectiveness of an adaptation, akin to changing any part of a character that isn't necessary for the translation.
The girl, if she is playing "Mary Jane" won't actually be playing the character herself. She'll be playing a different version of her. That's fine, but that isn't an actual adaptation of that character. It isn't the same. If she's playing "MJ" but NOT "Mary Jane," I can't imagine the movie will make enough of the distinction for it to amount to anything. If Mary Jane is so important to the Spider-Man mythos that you can't possibly replace her with a new character, then don't. Put that character on screen. That argument falls apart as soon as you put a DIFFERENT character, even if they share the same name and many qualities, on screen.
I've said about all I care to about this subject. It doesn't matter all that much to me. I just wish that folks would take a more innovative approach to adding diversity to these casts. Making The Falcon a major part of the Avengers is a much better solution than, say, suddenly making the Hulk black, Asian, or what have you.
Actually, the comic book Hulk is Asian, although in his case it's a previously established character becoming the Hulk.
You know what I mean. :P
Well,the same things could be said about the comics.Surprise,its the same company,so same handling.
But like I said,the story can probably work no matter the name.And no,I dont buy "fans would complain about the new girlfriend" theory either.Its a third take,you might as well do something new and just your own.And anyhow,fans complain,but still watch movies.
Here's where I guess my perspective differs from ya'lls though. For you, you're seeing yet another character you love changed by the Hollywood elites. Me though? I see the excitement from all my black friends and coworkers, who admittedly aren't that into comics, about Zendaya being cast as Mary Jane. I see tweets from Mica Burton, daughter of Levar Burton and member of an internet gaming group I admire, excited at the prospect of getting to cosplay as movie Mary Jane, without having to be a "black version" of the character. So if I seem dismissive about the notion of Hollywood making changes to characters to satisfy a quota, it's only because I see the impact that it has for real people. It's not as ideal as actually making characters who were always black from the start, but it's still better than looking at 5 spider man films and seeing a grand total of two significant black roles because there's 200 white characters we have to focus on first.
That having been said, I take umbridge with the entire notion of movies being perfect adaptions of the comics anyway. As I have pointed out ad nauseum, Kirsten Dunst was NOT an adaption of the Mary Jane Watson of the comics on any level except her appearance. Neither was Emma Stone playing anything even close to a faithful adaption of the 616 Gwen Stacy... If anything, I'd say she was closer to Ultimate Mary Jane than any version of Gwen Stacy. And frankly, those films were all the better for it.
Adaption is about more than just translating a story from the comics and making it work in a film script. In the case of comic book adaptations in particular, it's also about taking stories written in the 1960s and adapting them to be palatable for a modern audience. It's why Iron Man's origin isn't set in Vietnam, or why Hulk wasn't a byproduct of an Atomic Gamma Bomb. These things made sense in the era during which they were written, but that is no longer the case.
Likewise, if you're adapting Spider-Man to be a high school student in 2016, and setting his high school in Queens, surrounding him with all white people is as outdated as having all of Iron Man's enemies being dirty Commies.
Quote from: Tomato on August 20, 2016, 08:12:01 PM
Here's where I guess my perspective differs from ya'lls though. For you, you're seeing yet another character you love changed by the Hollywood elites. Me though? I see the excitement from all my black friends and coworkers, who admittedly aren't that into comics, about Zendaya being cast as Mary Jane. I see tweets from Mica Burton, daughter of Levar Burton and member of an internet gaming group I admire, excited at the prospect of getting to cosplay as movie Mary Jane, without having to be a "black version" of the character. So if I seem dismissive about the notion of Hollywood making changes to characters to satisfy a quota, it's only because I see the impact that it has for real people. It's not as ideal as actually making characters who were always black from the start, but it's still better than looking at 5 spider man films and seeing a grand total of two significant black roles because there's 200 white characters we have to focus on first.
That having been said, I take umbridge with the entire notion of movies being perfect adaptions of the comics anyway. As I have pointed out ad nauseum, Kirsten Dunst was NOT an adaption of the Mary Jane Watson of the comics on any level except her appearance. Neither was Emma Watson playing anything even close to a faithful adaption of the 616 Gwen Stacy... If anything, I'd say she was closer to Ultimate Mary Jane than any version of Gwen Stacy. And frankly, those films were all the better for it.
Adaption is about more than just translating a story from the comics and making it work in a film script. In the case of comic book adaptations in particular, it's also about taking stories written in the 1960s and adapting them to be palatable for a modern audience. It's why Iron Man's origin isn't set in Vietnam, or why Hulk wasn't a byproduct of an Atomic Gamma Bomb. These things made sense in the era during which they were written, but that is no longer the case.
Likewise, if you're adapting Spider-Man to be a high school student in 2016, and setting his high school in Queens, surrounding him with all white people is as outdated as having all of Iron Man's enemies being dirty Commies.
Hear, hear.
Yeah,but setting Tonys origin in Afganistan was also a product of its time,and it will probably be just as outdated in 20-30 years as Vietnam seems now.
Another thing,they are adapting characters themselves as story engines,not STORYLINES from the comic directly(at least in this case).You cant really point a finger and say,this was based on Clone Saga,or Gauntlet,or Spider Island or XY.Its a Spiderman movie,work from there.
And a "Russian scientist who lost everything when Soviet Union fell apart" is really just an update on the dirty commie stereotype,btw.
I don't disagree with you on most of that, but you're actually helping to underline my point: These aren't SUPPOSED to be 1:1 adaptations. Complaining that they're straying from the source material when they're creating their own stories and their own character arcs is like ignoring that the BBC Sherlock series is set in the 21st century but then complaining that Moriarty isn't a schoolteacher. Again, these can and should be looked at as no different than yet another Marvel Alternate Reality.
Quote from: Tomato on August 21, 2016, 03:39:08 PM
I don't disagree with you on most of that, but you're actually helping to underline my point: These aren't SUPPOSED to be 1:1 adaptations. Complaining that they're straying from the source material when they're creating their own stories and their own character arcs is like ignoring that the BBC Sherlock series is set in the 21st century but then complaining that Moriarty isn't a schoolteacher. Again, these can and should be looked at as no different than yet another Marvel Alternate Reality.
I wasn't actually against you;Im pretty neutral towards the whole thing(I got used to it at this point).Just saying that they could have the same results without even mentioning MJ.(And btw,we all know 1984 series is the only Sherlock adaptation that counts.)
On the other hand;i think fans care more a good Spiderman movie that respects the source material,then about seeing a realistic portrayal of Queens.I mean,is that so important?Is it going to help anyone in any way?
Quote from: Spade on August 21, 2016, 03:49:53 PM
On the other hand;i think fans care more a good Spiderman movie that respects the source material,then about seeing a realistic portrayal of Queens.I mean,is that so important?Is it going to help anyone in any way?
Quote from: Tomato on August 20, 2016, 08:12:01 PM
Here's where I guess my perspective differs from ya'lls though. For you, you're seeing yet another character you love changed by the Hollywood elites. Me though? I see the excitement from all my black friends and coworkers, who admittedly aren't that into comics, about Zendaya being cast as Mary Jane. I see tweets from Mica Burton, daughter of Levar Burton and member of an internet gaming group I admire, excited at the prospect of getting to cosplay as movie Mary Jane, without having to be a "black version" of the character. So if I seem dismissive about the notion of Hollywood making changes to characters to satisfy a quota, it's only because I see the impact that it has for real people. It's not as ideal as actually making characters who were always black from the start, but it's still better than looking at 5 spider man films and seeing a grand total of two significant black roles because there's 200 white characters we have to focus on first.
Yes.
So people can now cosplay characters they cosplayed anyway?OMG,thats almost like they found a cure for cancer.
Its a Spiderman movie.The world will continue to turn just the same after it.Either way,its not important.
Quote from: Spade on August 21, 2016, 07:08:21 PM
So people can now cosplay characters they cosplayed anyway?OMG,thats almost like they found a cure for cancer.
I think you're missing the point on that one, Spade.
Clearly the decision is making some people very happy and excited, not necessarily just for Cosplaying. It's getting many new people into our medium; the medium that we love so much. They are feeling more welcomed to share our passion and feel comfortable doing so by finding a hero that they can relate to. They can see themselves more clearly in these new versions of characters.
That was Tomato's answer to your question.
You meant a supporting character?Not like its a Mary Jane movie.Like I was saying,its not a major breakthru in anything,its just a movie.Probably on the same formula like every other MCU movie.
But, spydermann93 didn't claim it was a major breakthrough. The notion that people are more interested because the backdrop for the character is something familiar was (roughly) the point. Something doesn't have to turn the world upside down to be worthwhile. And, at least to my recollection, Spider-Man's social life is a pretty big part of the storylines in the comics. So, it may not be a Mary Jane movie, but MJ is a prominent role in a Spider-Man movie.
BTW, from a purely rhetorical standpoint, your earlier post kind of left a slow meatball hanging over the plate. "Is it going to help anyone in any way?" That question sets an easy standard to satisfy, as Tomato pointed out. If you had asked something like, "Is the benefit of this change greater than the cost of abandoning this aspect of the source material? Should filmmakers feel free to rewrite any aspect of an well-known character to achieve a social goal?" Then at least someone who disagrees has to do some thinking in order to address your point.
Tomato didnt point anything there.People are excited about it,but its not gonna pay their bills or anything like that.A change(or a lack of it) isnt helping or harming anyone.Its just a casting call and nothing more.And seeing this isnt the first or last similar change-who cares?Were people excited just the same 5-6 years ago?Will they be just as excited in 5-6 years from now on?Did the world started spinning in opposite direction after any of previous changes?No.
Quote from: Spade on August 22, 2016, 09:37:29 AM
Tomato didnt point anything there.People are excited about it,but its not gonna pay their bills or anything like that.A change(or a lack of it) isnt helping or harming anyone.Its just a casting call and nothing more.And seeing this isnt the first or last similar change-who cares?Were people excited just the same 5-6 years ago?Will they be just as excited in 5-6 years from now on?Did the world started spinning in opposite direction after any of previous changes?No.
You're using a strangely reductive version of "help" here.
Quote from: Spade on August 22, 2016, 09:37:29 AM
Tomato didnt point anything there.People are excited about it,but its not gonna pay their bills or anything like that.A change(or a lack of it) isnt helping or harming anyone.Its just a casting call and nothing more.And seeing this isnt the first or last similar change-who cares?Were people excited just the same 5-6 years ago?Will they be just as excited in 5-6 years from now on?Did the world started spinning in opposite direction after any of previous changes?No.
You're right. The casting choice won't "pay bills their bills or anything like that." But that's not the point. This is a thread talking about Marvel's movies. People are sharing their thoughts and opinions on a subject. In this case, it's a casting decision. Sure, it's not a new, alternative, energy source or a way to rid somebody of dementia, but it is something that our FR friends want to discuss and talk about. That's kind of what this forum was built for. We talk about comics, FF, and movies here, Spade. Nothing we review or complain about matters in the way you're saying this casting decision doesn't, so I don't know why you're trying to use that angle to try and play this out as nothing. This is a place to discuss with fellow comic fans about what's happening in our medium. Some people like the change. Some people don't. You're neutral and that's fine. More power to you. Just don't downplay somebody else's opinion by acting like their thoughts don't matter because of a strange benchmark that doesn't really apply to these kinds of threads.
Guys, I really think it's time to stop feeding the troll. If Spade is determined to believe that people being excited about the change is merely an insignificant detail not worth discussing, than he is entitled to that opinion. For that matter, we shouldn't even be discussing the SPider-Man films at all. There've been what, 5 of them already? Having one more isn't going to significantly change anyone's life 6 years down the road, so who really cares.
Whoa hold the gosh damn phone!
This isn't an MCU movie? What's going to stop Sony from ruining it this time? I don't like this at all. Just give up on your dreams Sony, nobody believes in you.
Quote from: Tomato on August 22, 2016, 06:46:58 PM
Guys, I really think it's time to stop feeding the troll. If Spade is determined to believe that people being excited about the change is merely an insignificant detail not worth discussing, than he is entitled to that opinion. For that matter, we shouldn't even be discussing the SPider-Man films at all. There've been what, 5 of them already? Having one more isn't going to significantly change anyone's life 6 years down the road, so who really cares.
Nice strawman tactic there.Then again,you made it pretty clear your just here to argue.
Quote from: Spade on August 23, 2016, 04:53:56 AM
Nice strawman tactic there.Then again,you made it pretty clear your just here to argue.
:doh:
I'm not sure about your assessment here. I love chatting with Tomato and he's got a lot of insightful things to say, artwork to share and he's constantly growing and pursuing interesting new things that he shares with the community. Meanwhile, I've found that the Comics and Movies forums just aren't that much fun to be around lately.
The part where he is super excited that haters gonna hate?The fact that hes always the one who starts these funting arguments and then derails them into real world situations like the demographic of Queens?And paint anyone who doesnt share his oppinion as trolls?Insults people then howls at mods that hes the injured party?
And your not so vague with your comments as you like to think,btw.
Folks, let's take this down half a notch. It's fine to discuss the impact various filmmaking decisions has on the comic characters the films are portraying and to disagree about those decisions and their impacts. We start to veer off course when we focus on other commenters and not on the content of their comments.
Anyone watched that new AMC show "Geeking Out" with Kevin Smith and Greg Grunberg? They had Jepp Loeb on the show for an interviewing and he was talking about Daredevil and changes from the comic and TV show. He said the important part is to get the characters right. Matt has to be Matt, Karen has to be Karen and Foggy has to be Foggy he said. As long as you have those elements audiences will go along with certain changes.
I'm paraphrasing but I think that's critical in any of these interpretations. This is why so many rejected X-Men 3's Jean Grey and Dark Phoenix being a split personality. Why Batman Begins and the Dark Knight worked well, kept the character consistent. Anytime you change a character ANY WAY, whether it's race or motivation or even costume, it will cause a stir with fans. Especially the nerd community.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on August 24, 2016, 04:51:09 AM
Anyone watched that new AMC show "Geeking Out" with Kevin Smith and Greg Grunberg? They had Jepp Loeb on the show for an interviewing and he was talking about Daredevil and changes from the comic and TV show. He said the important part is to get the characters right. Matt has to be Matt, Karen has to be Karen and Foggy has to be Foggy he said. As long as you have those elements audiences will go along with certain changes.
I'm paraphrasing but I think that's critical in any of these interpretations. This is why so many rejected X-Men 3's Jean Grey and Dark Phoenix being a split personality. Why Batman Begins and the Dark Knight worked well, kept the character consistent. Anytime you change a character ANY WAY, whether it's race or motivation or even costume, it will cause a stir with fans. Especially the nerd community.
Yeah, I'm gonna say that's mostly BS. Foggy and Karen are definitely not the same as their comic book counterparts. Batman Begins and the Dark Knight are pretty terrible examples of being faithful to the comics as well. That's not to say they're bad, and you could make the argument that they've kept the heart of the characters from the comics (which X-men 3 did not, and I would argue most of the MCU adaptations have). To tie this back in, if the heart of MJ's character is that she's a redhead, if a character's defining trait is easily found or removed by hair dye, then that is a terrible character.
:blink: ... Like... I'm sorry, but on no level whatsoever does Batman Begins or The Dark Knight adapt anything CLOSE to the comic counterparts. I love the films, but you cannot bash Mary Jane Watson's casting in the same breath as claiming that Heath Ledger's joker, as amazing as that performance was, looks exactly like the Joker from the comics. Those films changed SO MUCH of the comic lore to fit Nolan's vision from the universe, which btw DID and DOES have people up in arms much more than MJ ever will, that I'd argue they didn't even keep the spirit of several characters in that film.
Heck, if anything, the Nolan films actually disprove your argument... Nolan outright blew off the comic lore most of the time for the sake of his vision, and the films are still critically and financially successful outings.
Relax guys, I did not say the quote nor am I saying those films are exact adoptions of the source material. Its not about Batman Beigins or the Dark Knight. What Loeb is saying is Bruce Wayne is Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins or Year One. Or in comic or film or animated. Of course there are differences outside of that but what he saying is as long as the characters are consistent then that's what's most important. Whether you agree or disagree with this instance or not is your opinion. But Bruce Wayne is still the rich guy that saw his parents killed and dresses in a Batman costume. In his example Matt Murdock is still a blind lawyer that goes and fight crime. And here, Peter Parker is still the kid that gets bit by a spider and gets super powers.
What he saying as if Nolan made some random rookie cop the new Robin..........
So if you are saying such changes in characters has people up in arms then that's what I'm saying.
http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/136157-watch-what-thor-was-doing-during-captain-america-civil-war.html (http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/136157-watch-what-thor-was-doing-during-captain-america-civil-war.html)
Now we know what thor was doing during Civil War.
-Is purple
-Has a magic glove
-Doesnt like standing up
Quote from: Spade on August 29, 2016, 11:29:37 AM
-Is purple
-Has a magic glove
-Doesnt like standing up
Donny Osmond (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22donny+osmond%22+%22captain+purple%22&tbm=isch)?
And thats why Thor isnt worlds greatest detective...
Okay, that was worth watching. The fact that they don't take themselves too serious is probably part of the reason they keep succeeding.
So much of that was entertaining. Thor, slightly pathetically waiting for a call from either Tony or Steve, Daryl low-key hating him the entire time, Mjolnir's bed--all nicely done.
http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/136169-marvel-and-abc-reportedly-working-on-new-warriors-comedy-series.html (http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/136169-marvel-and-abc-reportedly-working-on-new-warriors-comedy-series.html)
New Warriors might happen on ABC.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/m/caf1c541-7f2a-3e9e-913e-355634197aba/ss_fan-theory-about-stan-lee-as.html
Makes sense to me. After all, we know what position Jack Kirby holds in the Marvel Universe...
The Team Thor thing was hilarious. Cat is right, there's definitely an element of fun evident in this that is part of Marvel's continued success. Ha, it is just so great that these folks seem to really be invested in this world and these characters. They're clearly having a good time, and that is paying off.
"Send a raven." :lol:
DG, man, if that turned out to be true, it would be beyond amazing. That would make my decade.
So I just left the theater for Doctor Strange. I think Marvel has another hit on their hands. The FX in this movie are just off the charts. The story is what youd expect from Marvel, full of action, drama, and of course it's funny.
There were quite a lot of references to the source material, too. :thumbup:
Glad to hear you enjoyed it! It's currently sitting at 98% on Rotten Tomatoes, so it is looking like Marvel has done it again. Now if I only I could overcome my jealousy that you can already have seen this when it doesn't come out in North America for 2 weeks.
Yeah Korea's pretty lucky for getting movies early.
Ill probably watch it in theaters again. It was that good. Need to brush up on my objects/relics of power before i watch it again though. I did identify quite a few of them, but im sure there are more easter eggs i missed.
How were the villains in this movie?
Re:villains (plot point spoiler free, names only)
Spoiler
Mordo was built up really well for a heel turn, so that's a good point. Dormammu was barely in it, but shows a lot of potential, too. The main villain (Mads Mikkelson, I think) was a bit of a throwaway, though.
http://itcamefromdarkmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/bbc-online-posts-new-captain-britain-tv.html?m=1 (http://itcamefromdarkmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/bbc-online-posts-new-captain-britain-tv.html?m=1)
Here is an update on that rumored Captain Britain project.Rumored is the key word.
Another rumor is that Deaths Head might show up in GotG2.That would be nice,yes?
So I was originally gonna watch Strange today, but my friends dragged me to a late showing last night. Really good film, probably the most visually impressive film Marvel's done, by far.
Spoiler
Mordo's characterization was interesting, and while it is a departure from the comics, I DO like that they've set him up as a different type of antagonist than Dormammu and the main villain of this film. The method Strange uses to win is brilliant ("I've come to bargin"), and Night Doctor (She is not a nurse here) was handled fairly well and led to some great comedic moments.
I will say, the ONE thing that broke my immersion was, of all things, Cumberbatch's performance. For some reason, rather than just allow him to use his natural accent, Benedict is using a sort of half-americanized accent that cracks more than once during the movie's run time. I'd have honestly preferred they just let him be British, it's not like it changes the character in any way, and they can hand wave it like they did with Abomination a few years back.
That said, I did like the subtle jab at Sherlock in there as well, the one with the cloak.
I'm excited to see Dr Strange soon. I just bought Capt America: Civil War and really enjoyed it. I also purchased Ant-Man (which I had already rented) and loved it just as much in this second viewing. I do wish they had Dr Pym's daughter named Janet and her mom named Maria (Pym's 1st wife in comics).
Dana
Except that canonically, Hope IS Hank and Janet's daughter in the comics... albeit in an alternate future timeline. Having Janet be Hank's daughter and not his wife would have upset a lot of fans, and it'd be a really bad idea because now you'd now have people who had only seen the movies go see the HankXJanet in the comics and think something entirely different was going on. That would not have been smart, on any level.
I didn't know that, Tomato. That makes much more sense to me..lol. Thanks for the info.
Dana
Doctor Strange was better then I expected.Its still a pretty by-the-numbers origin story thou.
Mordos arc went pretty well,and sets him up as an interesting villain in the sequels.And they kinda wasted Scott Adkins here,I have to say.
Pinker Dinklage is reportedly up for a role in Avengers Infinity War. (http://ca.ign.com/articles/2017/01/12/game-of-thrones-peter-dinklage-up-for-role-in-avengers-infinity-war)
As soon as I saw this I immediately thought of Pip the Troll. Which, if played by Tyrion Lanister, would probably be the only time I actually liked Pip. Others have suggested the Watcher. I could totally see him as the Watcher, but hopefully he do a better job as him than he did in his role in the video game Destiny. "That wizard came from the moon."
Elf with a gun? :)
That'd be one way to go.
Actually, I hadn't thought of this last night (I was kinda tired at the time, so maybe that's why) but come to think of it, Fox probably has the rights to the Watcher since he originated in Fantastic Four and tended to interact with them a lot.
[Edit: D'oh, I said Sony when I meant Fox. And that's not even the first time I made that mistake today while talking to someone.]
Could be, SS. He's certainly strongly associated with them, and that deal ended up including a ton of characters.
But apparently,they trade characters sometimes.Thats how Mavel got Ego for GotG 2.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 12, 2017, 01:10:13 AM
Pinker Dinklage is reportedly up for a role in Avengers Infinity War. (http://ca.ign.com/articles/2017/01/12/game-of-thrones-peter-dinklage-up-for-role-in-avengers-infinity-war)
As soon as I saw this I immediately thought of Pip the Troll. Which, if played by Tyrion Lanister, would probably be the only time I actually liked Pip. Others have suggested the Watcher. I could totally see him as the Watcher, but hopefully he do a better job as him than he did in his role in the video game Destiny. "That wizard came from the moon."
Maaaan, Stan Lee is the Watcher.
I've heard that, and if they went that route, I'd be totally onboard.
Photos have emerged of Peter Dinklage getting his hair dyed a fiery red, lending credence to the theory that he's playing Pip the Troll.
Marvel Studios boss Kevin Feige is saying that Thanos will be the main character in Avengers: Infinity War. (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/marvels-avengers-infinity-war-will-have-a-surprisi/1100-6447588/) "That's a bit of a departure from what we've done before."
I really like the sounds of it. After several years and 3 movies of Thanos sitting on a throne in a mere cameo, they have to really deliver the goods and this sounds like a way to go. It also sounds like the potential to replicate Thanos morbid fixation with Death from the comics and fix the main recurring criticism of the MCU movies, that most of the villains aren't fleshed out or interesting.
On a slightly related note, here's the Guardians of the Galaxy superbowl ad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaLNiC-bKHQ)
MANTIS!!
Spoiler
Oh SNAP! Is she going to be more than just a cameo!?!!? :o
Quote from: spydermann93 on February 07, 2017, 02:36:32 AM
Spoiler
Oh SNAP! Is she going to be more than just a cameo!?!!? :o
Spoiler
Indeed. But it doesn't stop there.
Spoiler
She's going to be in Avengers Infinity War too! :thumbup:
Still a bit of a rumor really,but the word from Fox is that Alpha Flight and Exiles are being considered.After Deadpool,Gambit and X-force cycles.
I kinda thought Marvel still owns the right to AF.They are an X-men spinoff,but not a lot of mutants there IIRC.
Quote from: Spade on March 22, 2017, 05:54:09 PM
Still a bit of a rumor really,but the word from Fox is that Alpha Flight and Exiles are being considered.After Deadpool,Gambit and X-force cycles.
I kinda thought Marvel still owns the right to AF.They are an X-men spinoff,but not a lot of mutants there IIRC.
That would be very interesting. Hmm...
I hate to complain about representation,but can we get Excalibur?Or something?Anything?
Quote from: Spade on March 23, 2017, 06:25:30 PM
I hate to complain about representation,but can we get Excalibur?Or something?Anything?
Not unless you dirty red coats are willing to admit you lost the War of 1812. We're still a bit sore over the whole White House burning thing you know.
Now,lets not go into who lost which war.Or who showed up late for every war.
I mean... weren't there talks of a BBC produced Captain Britain show going around for a bit? What happened to that?
But yeah, I think the big problem with Excalibur right now is that Marvel is trying to keep up with not only the growing number of sequels, but also trying to squeeze in new films like Black Panther and Captain Marvel, which have a more diverse selection of lead actors. Having yet another team film show up with a white male lead (much less another Captain) might be problematic.
Also, Excalibur itself might be a problem due to rights issues. That's a book that's typically made up of at least half X-men characters, so is it straight up included in the X-men rights (if so, good luck getting it out of Fox) or is it a Marvel property but they just can't use X-men in it.
Last I heard(sometime last year),it still wasn't even pitched to Marvel.So the lack of news leads me to believe its not happening.
Actually,I was talking about Fox possibly doing Excalibur,since I assumed they own the rights to it,like with Alpha Flight.
They might well have full rights (I did a bit of googling after posting and that does SEEM to be the case) but even then, it's Fox. Y'know, the same movie company that hasn't even made a good Fantastic Four movie, and whose X-men films only seem to have a 50% success rate? Even if by some miracle they bothered with Excalibur(and again, this is the same company that had to be bullied into Deadpool, who has a much more vocal fanbase than Excalibur), would you really want to see the mangled mess that they put out?
Quote from: Spade on March 24, 2017, 04:34:27 AM
Now,lets not go into who lost which war.Or who showed up late for every war.
I'll have you know, America is never late. We arrive exactly when we mean to. Gandalf says so.
@Tomato That was just wild guessing on my part,I really doubt Excalibur will happen.Best case scenario,AF is 8-10 years away.
On the company to company basis,I think Marvel would have handled F4 better,but I also doubt they would ever okayed Deadpool or Logan.
I think they would have Oked Deadpool (Marvel has pushed Deadpool in extended media for a while. XMLII, Marvel Ultimate Alliance, Hulk Vs Wolverine, the Deadpool game...) but I think it would have been a very different film than we got. I highly doubt Disney would have allowed the raunchy, hard R rated film that went out of its way to be snarky about the genre that made Marvel Studios billions of dollars. That said, it WOULD have had a better budget (though, I've always been a proponent of restrictions like budgets can lead to a better product).
On an unrelated note, I went out and finally bought Guardians of the Galaxy in preparation for the sequel (don't get me wrong, it's a good film, but unlike say, Ant-Man, where I had an invested interest in the character, I don't care AT ALL about the Guardians outside of the MCU). I've been putzing my way through the special features, and I find it interesting that the one thing brought up constantly by James Gunn, the actors, and the production staff isn't the humor, the story, or much about the CGI... the biggest thing they were thinking about was color. James Gunn's big push for Guardians of the Galaxy was to bring color back to space operas, and a LOT of care was taken to find just the right shades of green for Gamora, of pink for one of the major alien races, the colors for Drax... even the dreary, desolated planet the film opens on is balanced by a vibrant skyline. It's one of those things that sounds bizarre to talk about... until you look at the other side of the aisle and see the utter failure of color usage.
Hmm, that's fascinating about GoG, 'Mato. That makes perfect sense, and the result is quite a brilliant job on their part. It looks like it may have had the intended effect too, judging by the coming attractions.
Just left the theater for Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Just a fantastic movie, and so many great references for comic fans. Ill be seeing it again, for sure!
DM is right. Here's my initial impression:
To take a break from the doom and gloom that is becoming the standard in our world, we went to see Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 yesterday. It was amazing. Go see it immediately, especially if your spirits could use a lift.
It's hilariously, uproariously funny, and it also manages to have a solid emotional core. The movie blends absurdity into its dramatic moments which makes them both ridiculous and yet touching at the same time. That's an impressive balancing act.
It is also a spectacle of the highest order. It is just a BEAUTIFUL film, full of riotous, wondrous visuals and joyous neon colors. I haven't had this much fun watching a movie in a long time, and I would say it is even better than the first one.
On a
slightly spoiler-y note:
Spoiler
I can't believe I just watched a film featuring Ego the Living Planet, the Watchers, and Adam Warlock (however briefly). They even gave us the full visual of Ego's world-face. I never thought I'd see either of those in a million years, even after the successes of Marvel's other hard-to-adapt properties. Marvel can clearly do whatever they want, and now they're just showing off. Characters and concepts that I was quite certain could NEVER work on film worked tremendously well. I also can't believe that they teased the original Guardians of the Galaxy, after a fashion. As if the new Guardians aren't obscure enough! How amazing!
We're living in a golden age of superhero films (that are made by Marvel), where the hard work has been done, and now we can just bring the beautiful madness of comics to film.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 05, 2017, 07:12:46 PM
On a slightly spoiler-y note:
Spoiler
I can't believe I just watched a film featuring Ego the Living Planet, the Watchers, and Adam Warlock (however briefly). They even gave us the full visual of Ego's world-face. I never thought I'd see either of those in a million years, even after the successes of Marvel's other hard-to-adapt properties. Marvel can clearly do whatever they want, and now they're just showing off. Characters and concepts that I was quite certain could NEVER work on film worked tremendously well. I also can't believe that they teased the original Guardians of the Galaxy, after a fashion. As if the new Guardians aren't obscure enough! How amazing!
We're living in a golden age of superhero films (that are made by Marvel), where the hard work has been done, and now we can just bring the beautiful madness of comics to film.
Who are you calling obscure, BG?!?!
All joking aside, pretty nifty, even if non-comics fans are gonna have no idea who any of these guys are.
Saw it this weekend. Worth seeing. I feel it's a great an example of a movie that's paradoxically so good that you can forgive that it's not that good. I don't think it's as good as the first one by a good amount, but it's definitely not bad. It's Marvel Baby!
The two big issues for me (which I've seen shared by others both online and in RL) is wonky story structure and the humor being a little more forced and hit-or-miss. But you love the characters so much and the dramatic elements of the film are done well enough that it doesn't really matter. I also found the film, compared to the first one, contrived to have the retro soundtrack in play this time around. We know from the first film why Star Lord cares so much about those tunes, but why is everyone else so eager to put them on?
I'll say this though: the movie's a visual spectacle, that's for sure. Almost makes me regret not seeing it in 3D.
Kurt Russell was great in this. I'm not that familiar with his work, but he did great stuff with his material here, and made for a really cool, interesting take on a Marvel character I've never had much interest in.
Good to see Stallone still getting work, even if this is quite possibly the easiest paycheck he's ever earned in his career.
Space-Merle...I mean Yondu was great in this. I still want that high tech arrow weapon of his.
I was disappointed to see a lack of discussion of Mantis, both in the reviews I watched and in general. So I'll just say I
love the MCU version of Mantis. I love the look, I love the way she talks, I love that she comes off like the kind of cute alien girl Captain Kirk would want to romance. I love the interactions between her and Drax, I love how she's another example of the MCU not just adapting a longtime character but actually elevating them (such as with Tony Stark, Star-Lord, Drax, Ultron, Vision, Kingpin, Purple Man and arguably others). I like that she had a decent role in the plot (more than I was expecting, to be honest). It's always a good sign with a new character when your big takeaway is that you want to see more of them (a feeling I also had with the new young stars in the Force Awakens).
[edit] one other thing:
QuoteThe movie blends absurdity into its dramatic moments which makes them both ridiculous and yet touching at the same time. That's an impressive balancing act.
You know, I was thinking about that too. The thing it most reminded me of in that regard is some of the more creative manga and anime series like One Piece and Full Metal Alchemist. Outside of that wheelhouse (and maybe Scrubs) you don't tend to see that balancing act too often.
Perfect example:
Spoiler
The scene in the trailer where Mantis gets hit by a meteor. In the trailer, it's a purely comedic scene, complete with a different take from Drax. In the actual film, it's partly humorous because of how random it was, but otherwise it's actually an "oh crap"
moment because she was the only thing keeping Ego docile and she just got knocked out. I was actually really impressed at this moment of the marketing and the actual film teaming up to enhance the experience by playing with your expectations.
Some breif spoiler discussion:
Spoiler
You've gotta give the creators all the props in the world when they can make Yondu the best part of the movie, and make you genuinely care when he dies. What a great sendoff for this character. And while I did have it spoiled in advanced, I had just assumed he would be in Avengers along with the others so I really wasn't expecting anyone to die. Though I feel like I'm gonna have a Micheal Rooker deficiency in my life. That guy's getting into Sean Bean territory at this point.
I feel Kurt Russel's Ego the Living Planet will be cited by fans for years as a response to the tired old "Marvel movies don't have any good villains except Loki" complaint, and if they don't, they really should, because here's a villain who almost the entire movie resolves around and who a massive amount of time spent developing. He's compelling, he's funny in spots, he's charismatic, he's interesting, and once he's revealed as the villain, he's really hatable, making you want to see StarLord and co kick his butt.
The "Guardians 3000" cameos were fun, though at this point I do feel like the creators of the movies are showing off now in terms of how many obscure characters they can get into these movies. Would never have thought of anime Ving Rhames for Charlie-27, but i gotta admit that's a pretty awesome casting.
I don't know what's more bizarre: that Miley Cyrus has a cameo in this film, or that her character reminded me of Chaotzu from Dragon Ball Z (or if your prefer, Slippy Toad from Star Fox).
Oh I almost forgot. That mutiny sequence with Yondu? That was totally a Fox Quicksilver scene. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if someone at Marvel Studios at some point uttered the phrase "Quicksilver scene" when going over what they want in a future movie.
On a less happy note, I would like to take this opportunity to vent a long-overdue rant about industry sites being, to quote Star-Lord, A-holes when it comes to spoilers. I'm going to put this in a spoiler tag, because it's a bit long and has (censored) profanity and I encourage people to skip it if they don't want to hear me complain about spoilers.
Spoiler
Man oh man, some of the industry sites really sunk to a new low regarding this film, to a degree I never thought possible. When Logan got a pre-credits scene instead of a post-credits scene, and following the films early release overseas CBR and Gamespot (and others, I'd imagine) took that as free reign to spoil it on the front page, I thought to myself "they'd never do that if it was a post credits scene, which is ironic because keeping it a surprise is the REASON it ran before the film instead of after it" but boy how wrong I was. CBR, Gamespot, and to a lesser extent IGN (and I imagine other sites) basically just threw up their hands and said "Hey, the film's out already overseas, and we all got to see it for free as part of our jobs, so let's all be complete and total *&^%bags and spoil everything in the film for the paying customers who have to wait another week or two." When the only thing these rat finks didn't spoil was a Hasselhoff cameo, that's &*^%ed up. Put it behind the click guys. Is that so much to ask? Have we as a society really degraded that much? I know they're not even gonna try when Game of Thrones comes back in July, but movies used to be safe, dammnit. I was all like "I'm surprised they didn't spoil THE spoiler moment of the movie." One day after I finally got to see the thing, opening U.S. and Canada weekend, Front page spoiler. Disgraceful.
Meanwhile none of the Youtube movie critics I watch spoiled anything without warning, because they actually have dignity and self-respect.
Liked GOTG2 a bit and ended up going to see it a second time. Shortly I liked the first one and felt the second retained both the spirit as well all the little things that made the first fun, added I felt it was much more deep and did a better job in character analysis and development. I'll even give it I wasn't thrown slightly by their take on Ego and more could see why it worked better that way than getting it closer to the comic would have. Same with changing Star-Lords origin as the Spartax weren't really established. Though I would give anything to see The Imperial Guard in a film sometime. Oh and another great soundtrack of course.
Not up to Guardians 1 or 2 yet but I am now almost caught up wit the MCU. AT almost 1 hour into Thor the Dark World, I can say that it is, so far, my least liked of the films. The plot holes are too gaping even for a superhero film. Evil Elrond says he's killed his own race except for one goon and then comes back with an army?!? Heimdall takes down an invisible scout craft with TWO SWORDS and the rest of Asgard can't take down any with cannons! Loki had to tell the goon to use the stairs on the left but somehow dude found Agard's shield generator on his own?!? And the Asgardians let Evil Elrond's ship just sit there while he was looking for Jane Foster? :angry:
Wait till you get to the tank in Ant-man.
Quote from: Spade on May 22, 2017, 06:05:40 PM
Wait till you get to the tank in Ant-man.
Spoiler
Even if it doesn't make sense in real-life physics, at least it's consistent with everything else that gets shrunk down. Ant-Man doesn't weigh the same when he's small, so why should the tank?
I liked the tank.
Spoiler
It's a comic book story. There IS such a thing as too much realism.
Quote from: spydermann93 on May 23, 2017, 12:28:27 AM
Quote from: Spade on May 22, 2017, 06:05:40 PM
Wait till you get to the tank in Ant-man.
Spoiler
Even if it doesn't make sense in real-life physics, at least it's consistent with everything else that gets shrunk down. Ant-Man doesn't weigh the same when he's small, so why should the tank?
He does.Its stated in the movie that things retain their mass when shrunk.So how did Pym carry around a 64 ton keychain?
But ants lift Ant Man, and even the whole "proportionate strength" thing isn't going to keep him from squashing them. He will probably sink into the dirt like an ice pick would at ant-size, and if he were to jump onto a wooden floor, he would bury himself up to his waist. However, he has always had some way for the mass of a shrunken object to kind of disappear (into the negative Zone , maybe?). Or, maybe his mass stays the same, but his weight diminishes... of course, it would still be like lifting the hammer of Thor to pick up a 64 ton key chain, having to overcome all it's inertia.
In it's defense Ant-Man is still more fun of a watch then Thor 2. I'd rate it about the first Daredevil film, not mind-blowing but well enough to stick with. Though props as the character becomes more notable in Civil War. Glad I'm not alone on Thor 2. It was just...yeesh! Again I could forgive most of it but Selvig in his underpants and that chick with the knitted cap getting more screen time then Jane. Not what I want out of a Thor movie just saying.
Sorry for being ranty but I just have to add some cognitive dissonance to it. So due to involved events Selvig looses it...way after the fact. But he was totally cumbersome as a scientist meeting a God and that God dating his daughter, like let's have a beer and some lunch with God and give him dating advice kind of relaxed. :thumbdown:
I already watched Antman. The tank was a bit of a Deus ex machina, I grant that. However, I cannot think of a size-changing hero that really treats mass consistently. I am bit skeptical that the tank fuel would not have presented a problem.
Kat Dennings is pretty hot in Thor but Evangeline Lilly as Hope VanDyne just cranked it up to 11.
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on May 24, 2017, 12:40:49 AMHowever, I cannot think of a size-changing hero that really treats mass consistently.
I mean, the Atom is fairly "consistent" in the comics in that he can control his size and mass independently (thereby acknowledging that it is not the rules of size-changing that are changing, only his manipulation of said rules).
Realistic physics are one thing;movies own internal logic another.
Quote from: Spade on May 24, 2017, 05:41:48 PM
Realistic physics are one thing;movies own internal logic another.
Which they kept consistent
Ummm... no, they didn't. By the movie's internal logic, Ant-Man hits bad guys with the full force of an adult human at small size because his actual mass doesn't change. But he also rides ants, something he cannot do with the mass of an adult human. The tank should not be able to be carried around, the giant ant-dog should float away because it has less relative mass than the air, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Ant-Man, but saying the logic is consistent is nonsense. And that's not even going into the fact that if the science of shrinking works like the film explains, him shrinking into the microverse like he did would have created a black hole.
Quote from: Tomato on May 25, 2017, 03:59:23 AM
Ummm... no, they didn't. By the movie's internal logic, Ant-Man hits bad guys with the full force of an adult human at small size because his actual mass doesn't change. But he also rides ants, something he cannot do with the mass of an adult human. The tank should not be able to be carried around, the giant ant-dog should float away because it has less relative mass than the air, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Ant-Man, but saying the logic is consistent is nonsense. And that's not even going into the fact that if the science of shrinking works like the film explains, him shrinking into the microverse like he did would have created a black hole.
Yeah, their descriptions were off (they didn't know what they were talking about), but in practice, everything worked consistently. Nothing weighed the same as they would at full size, nothing got flimsier when they grew in size. Just like the comics.
Yeah, based on real-world physics, it didn't work, but in the film, everything that shrunk or grew behaved the same. They're different. Spade even mentions that. So playing real physics to all of the mumbo-jumbo means jack-all. Practically, the effects of the resizing was the same.
I'm not saying that the descriptions given by characters made sense, but it's not like the movie flip-flopped on how things worked. That's what I am saying. They were stupid, but consistent.
Something to remember: IT'S A SUPERHERO MOVIE...it doesn't have to make sense, just entertain.
(http://www.theouthousers.com/images/jce/logabbitt/2016/12/robo02.jpg)
Nobody expects complete realism from a movie,but if you bother so much with explaining how you "science" works,at least follow those rules.
Yeah I agree with Tomato and Spade. The movie should follow its own rules, or else not explain their rules at all. It's not about science, it's about storytelling.
The point is: why is the tank scene so outrageous and belief breaking for everybody when all of the other size-altering is fine? It makes no sense to me.
You guys are confusing consistency with matching up with our universe's physics. They don't match up with ours, as I've stated before and you guys are so quick to point out. But that's not the issue, here. Why is it that the tank scene in particular is so ridiculous? That's the one scene that I hear chewed out for no reason. Nah, a man becoming the size of a thumb tack and knocking full-sized humans is fine. Thomas the Train Engine growing to absurd proportions and crushing a house? That's fine, too! But a tank retaiming its durability when small, just like Ant-Man does? Perposterous!
It's fine if one were to have a problem with all of the size-altering science in the movie, but to have a problem with one scene when it follows the same logic as all of the others, as broken as they are from the descriptions given by the characters and especially when compared to our real world physics, is just as silly to me as you guys believe my argument to be. Yes, logically, theor descriptions don't make sense to us, but practically, it all works out in the same manner.
The movie is consistent. It might not make sense, but at least it's "wrong" all the time and doesn't flip-flop around.
I'm going to go ahead and agree to disagree. I don't think anybody's mind is going to change, so rather than me derailing this thread even more, I'm going to stop now.
As mentioned before,the movie explains that Ant-Man retains his mass when shrunk.That's why nobody can just step on him(They could,but it would be like jumping on a nail). So why doesn't the same apply for tank Henry carries around like a key-chain?It not even hand waved as pym-particles-magic.
Exactly. He cracks the bathroom tile from a 2 foot drop, which can be easily explained by their dialogue about him retaining his mass. However, he can also ride an ant no problem.
Anywho, I still enjoyed the movie. On a side note, I loved size-change effect. Totally reminiscent of the comic.
I bet The Ancient One could explain why but she would probably expect us to go on a soul journey and for us to have a personality adjustment first.
Really when you think about that, not a bad trade-off. The cost of gaining magic potent enough to mold reality to your whims is you have to read some books and be nicer in general to people. I'd do it!
And I'm with Spade and Outlah too. Like I enjoyed the film but little things like that aren't a matter of physics but they are a matter of proper film and story structure. I feel the same about the Back To The Future films for example (don't get me started!). Doesn't make a film bad but is a red check mark and makes the production look sloppy. Like leaving a nail head sticking out of a floor you built.
Quote from: Spade on May 25, 2017, 04:18:06 PM
As mentioned before,the movie explains that Ant-Man retains his mass when shrunk.That's why nobody can just step on him(They could,but it would be like jumping on a nail). So why doesn't the same apply for tank Henry carries around like a key-chain?It not even hand waved as pym-particles-magic.
Yes, that is why I've stated that their descriptions don't make sense. I realize their attempts to describe how the process works are flawed, but when it comes to practical examples, I don't see the problem. Everything behaves consistently.
Quote from: Ouflah on May 25, 2017, 04:25:35 PM
Exactly. He cracks the bathroom tile from a 2 foot drop, which can be easily explained by their dialogue about him retaining his mass. However, he can also ride an ant no problem.
When he cracked the floor, it was to show that he retained his density, and apparently mass can stay the same, but weight can change independently (with no change in gravity). The tank is the same thing; it is just as strong as it would be at full size, but its weight is clearly reduced enough to carry around. Flawed logic and descriptions; consistent behavior. And if the descriptions were accurate, then the physics of the world are different.
It's not like they had Ant-Man be super frail when tiny but kept the tank just as durable, or try and pass Scott weighing 180 lbs when shrunk but just said the tank was half an ounce.
That is why I don't understand the hate for the tank scene in particular. If it was an issue with world building, then it would be way more issues than just that scene in particular that people would have an issue with, but apparently, that's not the case.
IT'S JUST A MOVIE!! :banghead:
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 25, 2017, 07:11:16 PM
IT'S JUST A MOVIE!! :banghead:
Are you seriously saying everyone should turn their brains off just because 'it's a movie'?
I dunno... I read SF from the '30s 'til the present, and I've read a lot of unlikely science, my favorite being a gravity based energy storage system (the more energy you put into it, the more you can put in it). A lot of it has been rendered obsolete; Isaac Asimov wrote essays for each Lucky Starr story when they were reprinted, detailing the changes in scientific knowledge, and Fred Pohl wrote some HeeChee stories even after one of the big ideas was proven totally wrong (involving living in a Black Hole).
Talk about it, complain about it, be sure an tell the kids that it isn't possible, but it isn't on PBS, so it isn't meant to explain real physics. I mean, next thing you know we will be figuring out why Superman can't fly.
This is, of course, Stan Lee's fault. he actively encouraged such nitpicking in his comics. Although, I have read similar discussions in Astounding SF where the science in a story was pretty thoroughly dissected and eliminated.
Oh, don't get me wrong-- I have no expectations for superheroes to adhere to physics. In fact, it's kinda silly when people explain why "that wouldn't work in real life."
Reminds me of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl2I-UU0cz4&t=17s). They hate on the classic Avengers costumes by photoshopping exaggeratedly poor versions of the comic costumes on to the actors, even though most of the characters they're talking about in the movies have suits that are already plenty comic accurate.
And Spyderman93, I see what you mean. Whenever he has momentum on his side and is hurtling toward something, he hits the target with a lot of force, and whenever somebody (or something) is lifting him up, he doesn't weigh much. So yeah, I agree that in general the powers were consistent, even though (as you said) their descriptions didn't really match that.
I'm just going to add to my headcanon that the scientists didn't really know how to explain Pym particles and they just kinda said the wrong thing with confidence.
Well, what matters for a film is internal consistency. Do you create a universe where a man can fly? Where someone can shrink and ride ants? If so, then you succeed, no matter how ridiculous the thing is in real life. Fantasy is all about make believe worlds and situations, and it's been a key part of human storytelling since there have been humans.
Does Ant-Man succeed at that? Mostly. They should have adapted the Atom's explanation. 'You can change your size AND mass,' and then problem solved. Their explanation is flawed, but despite that, the setting they create is internally consistent. So, it's one flaw, and a not insignificant one, but it doesn't ruin the film or completely destroy suspension of disbelief. It would be worse if their explanation was flawed AND the portrayal of the power was inconsistent. (Looking at you, Man of Steel)
Ouflah, that's a great and believable no-prize explanation. I could totally see that happening. :lol:
Thou,in all honesty,there are better heist films around. :)
Well, I'm going to incite some irritation here. Guardians of the Galaxy (1) was okay. I like it better than Dark World and unlike Dark World, it did not have such numerous and glaring plot holes. I think I just didn't like the characters or find the story as engaging as many of the other Marvel films.
My one major Quibble with Dr Strange was simply casting. I totally would have cast James Hong as the Ancient One. The guy deserves to be the Sorcerer Supreme for once.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0393222/ (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0393222/)
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on May 28, 2017, 03:29:28 AM
My one major Quibble with Dr Strange was simply casting. I totally would have cast James Hong as the Ancient One. The guy deserves to be the Sorcerer Supreme for once.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0393222/ (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0393222/)
Yeah, about that. Nothing against Hong, but the sad fact is that Marvel wasn't going to cast
any Asian guy as the Ancient One simply due to China having a hate-on for Tibet. If such a grand position as Sorcerer Supreme were given to a Tiebetan character, China (one of Marvel's most lucrative investments in terms of movie-goers,) would have freaked, and while they well could have made Hong Japanese or even Chinese, Marvel still probably thought it'd be a bit too close for comfort. Mind you, it still sounds freaking stupid, but it was simply the reality of the situation.
Jumping back to Iron Man 3; there was great casting on that film. Case in point, Guy Pearce's number one stooge, Savin, had almost no dialog but the visuals combined with the very capable acting of James Badge Dale, made me hate the character so much I was disappointed that his death scene was so short.
Yeah, I don't really have a problem with Ant-Man having that plot hole. If they paved over it by phrasing a line or two better, it would have improved the film, but only by about .1%-1% IMO. To me the important thing was that it was a fun movie that did the characters justice and do lots of cool stuff with the size changing motif and for me they did it. I'll always acknowledge that not everyone was going to love Ant-Man, and it's not one of the best MCU movies, but it's one of my favorites chiefly because I have a fondness for the source material.
To give an example of the opposite, I'm not a Dr. Strange fan, so I didn't love the movie, but it was certainly decent. Neat visuals, and Cumberbatch was good as course. I watched it as a digital rental but once the psychedelic imagery started showing up I naturally said "This would have looked great in 3D".
James Hong would have been fun as the Ancient One. I always love that guy whenever he pops up in stuff.
So... Captain America Civil War.
Overall, I enjoyed it though I consider it more of an Avengers Light than just a Captain America movie.
Ironically, I found it absolutely believable that General Thunderbolt Ross, the man responsible for the MCU's Abomination, was made Secretary of State and charged with ensuring the Avengers don't run amok.
But the conveniently placed video camera recording the assassination of the Starks was a little hard to believe.
YL, I think you could no-prize the camera as a deliberate choice on the part of the Russians, who wanted it documented: i.e., they chose the spot BECAUSE of the camera.
Maybe until you realize that Bucky shoots the camera. He was brainwashed enough to kill a man he knew but not enough to just just take down the video camera. Oh, no! Instead he gets a sullen look on his face, points a gun at it, and blows it away. Obviously, aham-handed screenwriting to provide credible proof of Buck's guilt to Tony Stark.
Quote from: kkhohoho on May 28, 2017, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on May 28, 2017, 03:29:28 AM
My one major Quibble with Dr Strange was simply casting. I totally would have cast James Hong as the Ancient One. The guy deserves to be the Sorcerer Supreme for once.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0393222/ (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0393222/)
Yeah, about that. Nothing against Hong, but the sad fact is that Marvel wasn't going to cast any Asian guy as the Ancient One simply due to China having a hate-on for Tibet. If such a grand position as Sorcerer Supreme were given to a Tiebetan character, China (one of Marvel's most lucrative investments in terms of movie-goers,) would have freaked, and while they well could have made Hong Japanese or even Chinese, Marvel still probably thought it'd be a bit too close for comfort. Mind you, it still sounds freaking stupid, but it was simply the reality of the situation.
According to the dvd case, the temple is in Nepal. So it looks like they completely avoided Tibet which brings me right back to JAMES HONG, Mr. Burton! 😀
Yeah I totally agree, James Hong as the Ancient One would have been perfect.
The movie add more confusion by the claim she is Celtic.Whats the point there?
Quote from: Spade on June 02, 2017, 04:26:15 PM
The movie add more confusion by the claim she is Celtic.Whats the point there?
The point is 'Not remotely Tibet.' ;)
Notice the temple is in Nepal,not Ireland.They bothered so much to avoid being banned in China,yet they also decided that the oriental mystic thing is too cool to give up.
But this is another thing we went over a dozen times already.
That's an interesting reasoning and giving more credit to boardroom execs than I would have. I thought the reason was because casting an Asian in the role of the Ancient One would come off as debased, therefore they steered away from that. In other words an old Asian man with a ridiculously long beard that perhaps adds too many w's too his vocabulary which in turn sounds very Yoda. Just noting that in a lot of films and who can blame anyone really. When they do that even when it's meant to be genuine the kind of red glare that ignites both online and in the syndicated media...well, yeah.
Well,I will risk sounding blunt,but the thing is-Hollywood likes Asian culture,but Asian people,not so much.
Interesting notion, SA. I wouldn't have too much trouble believing that well-intended efforts at diplomacy or political correctness (or whatever you call it when people avoid doing something that is fine except that it might offend someone) at either end of the spectrum kept someone like Hong out of the role. Interestingly, Hong is an American from Minnesota who I overheard at a hotel in San Jose at one point speaking without any accent.
Exactly though. Like they have no issue with representation culture if it doesn't stand out as stereotypical. Like Cho for example is Asian but not stereotypical. Again even when genuine, the backlash from Django Unchained outspoken as such. Else when I thought about this today if it's down to realism Celtic Druidism is actually a closer match to how they use their powers (circles, summoning, spell-crafting, runes, symbols and invocation) then is Tibetan lore.
Infinity War first look video. Note that there is no footage from the movie whatsoever and the first half is the Thor actor clowning around with action figures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg6X22hFuV8
But you do get to see some concept art, some interviews and the actors for Spider Man, Iron Man, and Star Lord all together for the first day of filming, as well as an explanation of some of the basic plot.
Apparently, the purpose of Civil War was to make Thanos more threatening by ensuring that the heroes were not untified enough at first to stand against him.
Black Panther trailer!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBiZX_ceqO0
NO! NO! They've made their point! Stop this! We simply cannot take any more! For the love of everything holy spare us all!
Oh, the humanity!
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/06/20/new-fantastic-four-movie-fox-kids-rumours/
Why not Power Pack then?
X-babies...
At this rate 3D-man movie seems just around the corner.IN 3D!
They seem rather determined to keep that license whether they make any money or not. I can see why Marvel is upset. They are basically willing to destroy the reputation of F4 in order to keep the license for it. Why? Who knows, at this point. They just started to relax the F4 branding embargo a bit too.
Well, I mean, it could be good. The concept in itself isn't bad, it's just hard to care after all the movies that weren't good.
EDIT: Keep in mind, all the sources I've seen say it's a rumor, so it's not confirmed.
If it was similar to The Incredibles, it might not be too bad. Something like that might be the best way to go, especially if you made it a CGI cartoon and hired good voice talent. I mean, the SFX should be good if the entire movie is, in effect, a special effect.
Bear in mind, I have absolutely no faith in this happening.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on June 22, 2017, 09:53:10 AM
They seem rather determined to keep that license whether they make any money or not. I can see why Marvel is upset. They are basically willing to destroy the reputation of F4 in order to keep the license for it. Why? Who knows, at this point. They just started to relax the F4 branding embargo a bit too.
Unfortunately,they bought it,they cant just give it back.They also proved they cant make money on it,so reselling the rights back might be the best option.
Good freaking heavens! Why can't they learn from their mistakes? Disney has enough money to make selling the rights back worth it. Just do it and stop beating the dead horse!
Yes, it could be good, but I think they've proven that they don't have the understanding or the respect for the material necessary to treat it anywhere near right. Yet, the question of the quality of this one movie really isn't the main issue. No, the real problem is that if this movie actually manages to be good (or even if it just makes money despite being bad), it will just prolong the slow death of these characters, because Fox clearly has not ability to make consistently good superhero movies, especially not about the FF. Even worse, it keeps the FF out of the Marvel U, which is where they belong. They'd make a great center for a wave 4 of Marvel films.
Honestly, the Fantastic 4 have a terrible reputation among movie goers now, so I doubt any film with them can be successful. The only thing that could save them at this point is the giant reputation Marvel studios has for making good movies out of concepts that shouldn't work, but of course they are specifically not letting them do that. The smart money at this point is to make a deal like Fox did with Spider Man where they retain distribution right, but hand control of the franchise back to Marvel. Win for everyone. But no, they are too stubborn about it.
This kinda reminds me,what MCU really lacks is any form of resolution.You are watching movie 1 to see it set up movie 2 which sets up movie 3 and so on.Without a conclusion to any of them.To me,the investment is just not worth it.
See, I get what you're saying, but at the same time... these are adaptations of comic books, and comic books have been leading from story to story and having character crossovers for decades. Heck, you could make the case that's how Marvel made a name for itself in the first place... early Spider-Man and Fantastic Four issues are littered with crossovers to other books to act as a gateway for new readers.
So while I get not feeling like there's a big payoff for all these interacting movies... I don't need one because to me it's the same as a comic book issue leading into another one. Yes, Infinity War is going to be huge... the culmination of all these characters AND the Infinity Gem subplot, but as for an actual "conculusion" to the MCU... why? Life doesn't have an end, comics don't really have an end, why should comic book movies? I'm content with the film covering specific adventures.
Okay,look at it from a different angle,how much longer will these actors manage/want to play these rolls?What happens when you accumulate another few years of continuity and it becomes hard for new viewers to follow along?Do you reboot and start everything over?
For example,do we care to make a (insert your own example here) movie that stands on its own?Or is the point to use it as a building block for Avengers 5?
I'm with cat. F4 is just one of those things that doesn't transfer from paper to film. They'll still peddle it of course, they pay for that copyright after all and added when companies like Fox contract the franchise rights they have a legal obligation to not only make X number of films about it but as well meet a profit margin, lest they get sued and they have as such already. Same as how we'll see umpteen revamps of films like Judge Dredd, Robocop, Godzilla, so on. Not that there's a vision or need but the company pays for these copyrights annually and they want their money back. Like if you have an employee and they don't earn, well you have to let them go in favor of not paying their insurance upkeep anymore. I just do myself the favor in not getting my hopes up about a Fantastic 4 film being good and therefore am not disappointed. Nor do end up shelling out theater prices to see it of course. In that vein I'm not jumping through hoops about the new Spider-man flick either. Maybe it will impress me, who knows. But given the track record so far I'm not going to set my bar high in anycase.
All in all,just another brick in the wall.
Quote from: SickAlice on June 30, 2017, 05:39:40 PM
I'm with cat. F4 is just one of those things that doesn't transfer from paper to film. They'll still peddle it of course, they pay for that copyright after all and added when companies like Fox contract the franchise rights they have a legal obligation to not only make X number of films about it but as well meet a profit margin, lest they get sued and they have as such already. Same as how we'll see umpteen revamps of films like Judge Dredd, Robocop, Godzilla, so on. Not that there's a vision or need but the company pays for these copyrights annually and they want their money back. Like if you have an employee and they don't earn, well you have to let them go in favor of not paying their insurance upkeep anymore. I just do myself the favor in not getting my hopes up about a Fantastic 4 film being good and therefore am not disappointed. Nor do end up shelling out theater prices to see it of course. In that vein I'm not jumping through hoops about the new Spider-man flick either. Maybe it will impress me, who knows. But given the track record so far I'm not going to set my bar high in anycase.
Not sure how that constitutes agreeing with me, because I don't agree with most of that, especially the first part. I think Fantastic 4 would be a great property for a good movie. It's good good characters, good character interactions, some great villains, a fun scientific adventure theme not found anywhere else. Perfect for big screen. What I AM saying is that they have long since ruined the properties reputation. Moviegoers who aren't comics fans associate the Fan 4 with several bad movies. Any further ones will be doomed by that reputation. Marvel could do it, because they have a reputation of making good movies out of things that sound terrible, so folks would give them a chance, but they won't give anyone else a chance.
I really wish I didn't have to repeat all that, but I don't want anyone think that I agree with ANYTHING that SA just said.
To be fair, there was that one Fantastic Four movie that was really darn good. Shame they didn't use their actual name. What was it called again? Oh, that's right. The Incredibles. ;)
Seriously Marvel/Fox, just hand the FF over to Pixar and let them work their magic. They've already done a heck of a Not!FF movie; think of what they could do with the actual FF. The potential's there; it just needs to be dug out, and Pixar's already proven they could do it with aplomb.
One of the Youtubers I follow had a brilliant idea on how to bring Fantastic Four into the MCU and still maintain the "old fashion" family dynamic that feels classic FF (without modernizing them which has already been done to death in the original FOX films AND Fan4Stic).
In a nutshell, Reed Richards and Sue Storm are a couple pulled straight out of the '60s nuclear family. Reed is the loving work obsessed husband who often gets lost in his work and doesn't always remember to come out of the lab to eat or even change clothes on a daily basis. Sue is the wife who loves making sure her husband is happy way before herself and often feels like she is invisible in a very male dominated time period. Johnny is the impulsive hot headed brother of Sue who listens to loud rock music and driving fast cars without too much care of what trouble he gets into but he always looks after his sister when duty calls. Ben is a close friend of Reed and Sue and serves as their personal driver/pilot and even as their body guard. Reed often talks about clashing with one of his classmates in college, some know-it-all mad scientist named Victor, who often boasted that his inventions would make him rich and famous enough to own his own country. One year Reed manages to create his own small crew spacecraft which could go to any planet using very little fuel and be strides ahead of anything NASA had on their drawing boards for future missions. Of course NASA doesn't really think Reed's genius can pull off this amazing craft without proof of it going on test missions first or even using animals as crew if could survive long term missions in zero gravity beyond the moon. Reed convinces Sue, Johnny, and Ben to be his test crew on a very simple mission traveling around the moon and testing some new radiation shielding along the way. The craft is launched a few months later at a private rocket testing site with Reed's crew aboard without any problems at first until they orbit the moon. Some strange radiation hits their craft out of nowhere and sends it spinning out of control. For a brief moment their ship blinks in and out of some kind of strange vortex and then it regains enough control to return back to Earth. Everyone on board feels ill and fighting to stay conscious enough to get the craft back into the atmosphere enough to crash land into the ocean. The ship succeeds it's reentry and crashes just off the coast of Florida. Reed and Sue are the first to wake after being knocked out from the impact but open the hatch to find a whole new world waiting for them. It's now 2017 and their ship is surrounded by all kinds of media and coast guard ships and helicopters. Quickly, Reed and his crew are taken to a secure location to be debriefed and they are filled in by agents that their craft was lost around the Moon and didn't even reappear until just moments before it crashed. Johnny and Ben both suddenly become very ill and their powers start to manifest. Ben transforms into a giant Rock creature and Johnny bursts into flames often flaring up to levels that are near solar flare levels. All of them are taken to old SHIELD facilities used to keep powered people in check while being studied. Sue and Reed also discover their own powers emerging but at a slower rate and try to keep their powers from being discovered until they find a way to escape with the rest of their team. Just moments after they escape some strange monster emerges from the ground near a major city (Florida? New York?) and Reed decides to jump into action by placing his family into the fray to test their new abilities. Of course they defeat this strange monster after a huge battle and now the general population sees them all as great heroes. They are dubbed the Fantastic Four by the media and Reed decides to put his full effort into finding what happened to them and hopefully finding a way to return them to normal. Now the news footage shown on film breaks away to that same moment looking at a monitor in some strange castle at while some large figure sitting on a throne in the shadows leans foward. His eyes glow brightly and he screams, "RICHARDSSSSSSS!!!" *end credit*
I'll see if I can find the video later this weekend. But I agreed this works perfectly and allows for more growth of the Fantastic Four in further sequels and expansion even within other MCU films by showing Human Torch cameoing in Spider-Man sequels or even The Thing showing up as a wrestler on some random TV program in the background.
- CQ
I agree completely, Cat. They're one of the most perfect concepts to be found in comics. They come prepackaged with everything a story needs, conflict, pathos, humor, and hope. They'd work wonderfully on the big screen or, even, if special effects budgets weren't a thing, on the small screen, as an episodic format would be great for their exploration themes. They're a great set of characters, and there is a reason that their introduction to comics was revolutionary.
CQ, that's an interesting take, but I'd say it adds wrinkles to the concept that aren't really necessary. You'd have a whole fish-out-of-water element in such a treatment that isn't really the Fantastic Four. A straight treatment of the characters would work just fine if it were done right, as The Incredible proved, really.
Just got out of the theater for Spider-Man: Homecoming. Another homerun for Marvel in my opinion. Very funny, and one of the best villains of the MCU. His motivation is quite good, and Michael Keaton just nailed it, such a grounded character (odd, since he is a flier :P). there are lots of cameos in the movie, too. unexpected actors and marvel characters.
Yeah, I saw it with a group tonight and we really enjoyed it. I feel very comfortable saying it's my favorite Spider-Man movie made yet. Yeah, I'd heard Micheal Keaton was great and I really enjoyed him, as well as the cameos. A lot of the humor really worked for me.
Spoiler
Micheal Mando as the Scorpion. Hell yeah!
So Zendaya aka "Michelle" turned out to be...Michelle, who popped up throughout the movie for weird little comic relief moments and then at the end said "My friends call me MJ." I actually rolled my head back in the theater at that part. So dumb, so pointless. I don't really get why they did that, but it didn't feel like it mattered because the character had no role to speak of the film, you could have taken her out and it would have made no difference. The actual love interest girl character was this movie's version of Liz Allen.
Saw Spider-Man: Homecoming on Friday. I haven't been this disappointed with a Marvel film since Iron Man 3 (worst MCU film by far). After Civil War...I think I had my hopes set to high for this one.
Spoiler
Love the look but hated how over teched out his costume was. Felt more like "Iron Man Lite" than Spider-Man...with all the gadgets and the lame voiced AI. I was glad when Tony took away the suit and Peter was forced to wear his ugly homemade version. It felt like I was watching and actual underdog Spider-Man movie again. Also, where the hell was his spider sense? Did the writers research this character at all? "He sticks to things and shoots webs. Done!" lol
The pointless changes to his supporting cast were laughably bad. Flash "Thompson" was the worst. They couldn't make him less physically imposing if they tried. Michelle or "M.J." (sigh) was just annoying. The casting came off more like diversity check list for a Sunny D commercial than anything else.
The comedy was weak and cringey as hell at points. Eye rolling dialogue like the pointless slavery banter at the expense of Michelle's white (therefore lame) professor. Marvel comics are absolutely riddled this "Identity Politics" crap and are suffering badly for it. Keep it out of the movies.
Tom Holland was a good Peter/Spider-Man and Michael Keaton was great as The Vulture. Shocker was useless...both of them. I really like the actor (Michael Mando) they got to play the upcoming Scorpion. Looking forward to see what he does with it. The final act was the most enjoyable part of the film for me and the bonus scene at the very end was funny but still left the theater sadly disappointed and my expectations for the sequel severely diminished.
Well,if that didnt trigger anyone,this place is even deader then I thought.
Nah, the discussion hopped unto another thread and everybody forgot about this one.
Quote from: Courtnall6 on July 09, 2017, 04:43:23 PM
Saw Spider-Man: Homecoming on Friday. I haven't been this disappointed with a Marvel film since Iron Man 3 (worst MCU film by far). After Civil War...I think I had my hopes set to high for this one.
Spoiler
Love the look but hated how over teched out his costume was. Felt more like "Iron Man Lite" than Spider-Man...with all the gadgets and the lame voiced AI. I was glad when Tony took away the suit and Peter was forced to wear his ugly homemade version. It felt like I was watching and actual underdog Spider-Man movie again. Also, where the hell was his spider sense? Did the writers research this character at all? "He sticks to things and shoots webs. Done!" lol
The pointless changes to his supporting cast were laughably bad. Flash "Thompson" was the worst. They couldn't make him less physically imposing if they tried. Michelle or "M.J." (sigh) was just annoying. The casting came off more like diversity check list for a Sunny D commercial than anything else.
The comedy was weak and cringey as hell at points. Eye rolling dialogue like the pointless slavery banter at the expense of Michelle's white (therefore lame) professor. Marvel comics are absolutely riddled this "Identity Politics" crap and are suffering badly for it. Keep it out of the movies.
Tom Holland was a good Peter/Spider-Man and Michael Keaton was great as The Vulture. Shocker was useless...both of them. I really like the actor (Michael Mando) they got to play the upcoming Scorpion. Looking forward to see what he does with it. The final act was the most enjoyable part of the film for me and the bonus scene at the very end was funny but still left the theater sadly disappointed and my expectations for the sequel severely diminished.
I know! Why couldn't Peter be going to one of the all white NYC technology magnet high schools?
Yknow if the founding fathers knew they'd end up being represented in our superhero movies, they probably wouldn't even have invited all those minorities over here.
This is all Sunny D's fault. I'm only drinking purple stuff from now on.
Yes, clearly C6 hates minorities and that's the only reason he would object to changing a character's race, as that obviously has no impact on who a character is, and clearly neither comics nor movies are visual mediums where characters are defined by appearance as well as by personality. Don't be ugly, BWPS. We've had these conversations before, and there's nothing racist about wanting accurate translations of the source material.
I agree to a point, but being absolutely dismissive about the changes because they don't conform to a certain version of the characters is absurdity. It's one thing to be frustrated at how, say, Flash Thompson is portrayed for example... I see what they were trying to do, but it's clearly at odds with the football jock he's always been in pretty much every version of the comics. It's another to complain about a "diversity checklist" as though having a diverse student body in a school in New York is somehow unrealistic or shocking.
I do understand his point about some of the casting choices, and specifically in the case of Ned Leeds... who is CLEARLY supposed to be Ganke and it's annoying to here him constantly referred to as Ned in the movie when they could have just CALLED HIM GANKE... but I go back to points I've made here and elsewhere: THERE IS A UNIVERSE WHERE PETER IS A PIG, AND MARY JANE IS A BIRD. There is a universe where Peter and all his supporting cast are Indian, one where they're Japanese, and one where Captain America insults France despite fighting alongside them in WW2. And I don't see the people arguing against the changes here complaining about those, because that'd be stupid: Everything I've listed is an alternate reality. The fact that THIS ITERATION features a half-black Liz and an Indian Flash is no different then my favorite cartoon featuring a Latino Liz Allen. What matters is THEIR CHARACTER, which... yeah is a valid place to attack this film from, I'm not even going to argue. Flash is not quite Flash, Liz is not quite Liz, and Ned sure as heck was not written or cast to be Ned.
That having been said...
Spoiler
As far as Michelle goes, this one I'll defend tooth and nail. She's not quite the MJ we know, but A. She has clear chemistry with Tom, both in the movie and in interviews, B. It's subtly implied the entire film that she knows EXACTLY who Peter is, and is somewhat fascinated by it... which is an aspect of MJ's relationship with Peter we've never seen explored outside of comics before, C. I went with 4 other people who are not spider-man nerds, and ALL of them thought the performance and writing for the character was fantastic. She may not be a 1:1 translation, but it's a unique take and I'm honestly interested to see where it goes.
So... yeah, I understand your stance Benton... but the "diversity checklist" remark by C6 definitely rubs me the wrong way too. I've maintained this whole time that they shouldn't NEED to justify why they didn't cast all white actors when half those same characters have an iteration where they're cartoon animals. And to be fair, he's not WRONG about the characters being off... they absolutely are. And not in ways I'm 100% ok with either. But there are ways to express that without opening this can of worms.
Well,nice to see everything is back to normal.
To be fair here,its also unrealistic for a guy defrosted from 1945. to be PC by today's standards,so what does that prove.
And for those who havent seen the movie,could you please clarify,was this a Spider-Ham adaptation? :huh:
My point in bringing it up is merely that saying that "they're white in the comics" is a pretty flimsy justification when I can point to a comic where MJ is a Water Buffalo and Flash is a Goat. The only member of the side cast whose race matters at all in the comic is Flash, and that's really just because his father is a drunken racist jerk and that's typically an area dominated by white people. And before people throw the "sassy redhead" thing at me AGAIN, I would remind you that that trope isn't as recognizable for my generation as, say, sassy black girl. And yeah, that's kinda racist too, but so is the sassy Scottish trope the redhead thing comes from.
(Also, given MJ's shade of red in the comics, it's almost certain she dyes it, since natural redheads are actually more orange. And I have seen African American coworkers and friends dye their hair that color or close to it FAR more often than white ones.)
As opposed to say being a work of hundreds of different colorists?Whats next?Yugi also dyes his hair?Seriously,how did you extrapolated that fascinating piece of info?
You didnt really answer my questions.You cant insist on realism and only pick the realistic parts you like.Second,afaik its an adaptation of the main universe Spiderman,key word adaptation.You see whats the peoples problem here?
Because it fits more with MJ's character that she purposely dyes her hair to a bombastic red to make her the center of attention? Especially given that it's a shade of red (going by her first appearances) not seen in nature?
Going back to your other statement... You're purposely misinterpreting what I said, and it's gotten old. Read my posts again: I'm not saying it's BETTER because it's "more realistic," I'm saying that the focus SHOULD be on changes to the characters personalities and motivations, because those are the things that ACTUALLY MATTER. The fact that they chose to cast someone who isn't white should be inconsequential to the discussion. The spirit of the character is far, FAR more important to me... and this movie does deserve that particular criticism.
<throws up the "It's a movie! It's a piece of entertainment, so just enjoy watching it!" sign> You people are sooo serious... :-P
Quote from: Tomato on July 15, 2017, 02:01:37 PM
Because it fits more with MJ's character that she purposely dyes her hair to a bombastic red to make her the center of attention? Especially given that it's a shade of red (going by her first appearances) not seen in nature?
Going back to your other statement... You're purposely misinterpreting what I said, and it's gotten old. Read my posts again: I'm not saying it's BETTER because it's "more realistic," I'm saying that the focus SHOULD be on changes to the characters personalities and motivations, because those are the things that ACTUALLY MATTER. The fact that they chose to cast someone who isn't white should be inconsequential to the discussion. The spirit of the character is far, FAR more important to me... and this movie does deserve that particular criticism.
As always,your opinion,not a fact.And again,your not answering the question.
Your question, if I understood it, was "none of it is realistic, so isn't it better to be closer to the source material" and my response... which I've said 2-3 different ways now, is that I don't give a flying monkey about the race or appearance of the characters so long as the spirit of the character is intact. And again, I'm not claiming that they are... I have given multiple examples of how they aren't and why it's to the movie's detriment that the spirit of the characters isn't maintained, despite my enjoyment of the film as a whole.
What I object to, specifically with C6's wording, is the implication that they had some sort of "race checklist" that they HAD to tick off lest the Hollywood gods smite them or whatever. That somehow the creative process for the film was hindered by the choice. However, by all accounts, it was the director who made those decisions, not the studio. Heck, if anything, I suspect the studio would have preferred the opposite: Casting all white actors is safer, and it's what Sony did with the last two adaptations. They chose to go a different direction this time, to do something a bit different... and I feel like the only reason it's a problem is that this is somehow supposed to be the "definitive" cinematic version despite being the third version to come out in the last few decades.
To put my feelings another way... Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane. Now, I have made no secret that I am one of the few people that HATES the Raimi trilogy (in part due to the "best" movie for most fans being the most frustrating for me personally) but Mary Jane in particular goes from the loud, in your face "you just hit the jackpot" lady I fell in love with in the comics, to the typical damsel in distress that screams for the majority of the films. Her relationship with Peter in particular is PAINFUL, with all the worst aspects of soap opera drama thrown in there to pad out their relationship.
Does it really matter that Dunst looks like she walked right out of the comic pages when every single other aspect of her character spits in the face of the comic they're adapting? I'm not saying it is nor should be an either/or situation, I just feel like the appearance stuff is like 5% of the character's total package, whereas personality, chemistry, upbringing... those things make up the other 95% of what defines us as human beings.
Well,you are making a 20th or so movie in the franchise and a 6 Spiderman movie.No chance in hell you are going to do something original,so a rogue casting is the only way to surprise the audience.So it might not be a checklist,but its a very cynical,calculated move in any case.Hey,lets urine off the nerds,as long as they are talking about it...
Alright, I'm ending this now! It's a movie! The studio, producers, and director can do whatever they feel like because that's their job. As long as people go see it and pay money on merch, that's what makes them happy. Do you have to like it? No! Do they care? As long as they are making money, no! Aside from wasteful griping about miniscule and trivial problems about the movie, can you change it? No! Unless you are willing to go out and raise the money, cast, write, direct, and release your view of what the movie should be there is no reason to get into an argument or whatnot about it. Everyone can have their opinion but getting into a fight over something as trivial as a movie is a waste of time and energy. IT'S A MOVIE! HELL, IT'S A SUPERHERO MOVIE. JUST SIT BACK, SUSPEND LOGIC, AND ENJOY THE PARTS YOU FIND ENJOYABLE!
Now, I'm going to go get a case of vodka and when I come back if this is still going on...well, I'll probably just yell some more but still...I rarely step in and do that so yeah!
Quote from: Deaths Jester on July 15, 2017, 04:32:38 PM
Alright, I'm ending this now! It's a movie! The studio, producers, and director can do whatever they feel like because that's their job. As long as people go see it and pay money on merch, that's what makes them happy. Do you have to like it? No! Do they care? As long as they are making money, no! Aside from wasteful griping about miniscule and trivial problems about the movie, can you change it? No! Unless you are willing to go out and raise the money, cast, write, direct, and release your view of what the movie should be there is no reason to get into an argument or whatnot about it. Everyone can have their opinion but getting into a fight over something as trivial as a movie is a waste of time and energy. IT'S A MOVIE! HELL, IT'S A SUPERHERO MOVIE. JUST SIT BACK, SUSPEND LOGIC, AND ENJOY THE PARTS YOU FIND ENJOYABLE!
Now, I'm going to go get a case of vodka and when I come back if this is still going on...well, I'll probably just yell some more but still...I rarely step in and do that so yeah!
Yeah, no. Just because it's a movie doesn't mean it's automatically free from any and all criticism. If two people have differing opinions on a work, then they have every right to debate those differences as long as it doesn't turn into a flame war or anything. And I honestly don't think we're at that point just yet. Basically, if someone wants to get upset about a movie and make a point, then they should darn well be able to make that point.
Quote from: Deaths Jester on July 15, 2017, 04:32:38 PM
Alright, I'm ending this now! It's a movie! The studio, producers, and director can do whatever they feel like because that's their job. As long as people go see it and pay money on merch, that's what makes them happy. Do you have to like it? No! Do they care? As long as they are making money, no! Aside from wasteful griping about miniscule and trivial problems about the movie, can you change it? No! Unless you are willing to go out and raise the money, cast, write, direct, and release your view of what the movie should be there is no reason to get into an argument or whatnot about it. Everyone can have their opinion but getting into a fight over something as trivial as a movie is a waste of time and energy. IT'S A MOVIE! HELL, IT'S A SUPERHERO MOVIE. JUST SIT BACK, SUSPEND LOGIC, AND ENJOY THE PARTS YOU FIND ENJOYABLE!
Now, I'm going to go get a case of vodka and when I come back if this is still going on...well, I'll probably just yell some more but still...I rarely step in and do that so yeah!
Oh come on,it FR tradition.We do this every movie.
We werent really arguing,at least how I saw it.I asked Tomato to clarify some thing,he did for the most part,and that it for now.
:rolleyes: Spade... Dude, I know you haven't seen the film, but the whole "no new ideas" thing is silly. They mined PLENTY of new material and ideas for this version (not all of which I personally cared for) and WAS a very fresh take on the mythology and that fact had nothing to do with casting. Liz Allen being the love interest, the implication that Michelle finds Peter intriguing for some reason, a villain that's a working class schmuck instead of a mad scientist, Not-Ganke being in a support role... I might not agree with changes like making Flash someone *I* could beat up, but they did play up the innate jealousy that's been a longtime part of Flash's character in the comics and hasn't been explored in film before.
Heck, the fact that we are even talking about the secondary characters at all, when in previous films Flash could have been a cardboard cutout and no one else showed up in high school except MJ/Gwen (and occasionally Harry), shows that this film DID manage to take a much different path than films prior.
As for the whole "it's a controversy" thing... I get where it might seem like it's a problem, but I don't feel like it's as big a deal as it seems to be here. Sure, comic boards like this are an echo chamber, but when I'm discussing the film with friends and people from my generation, it doesn't even come up. Frankly, the same people complaining about it would be complaining about the costumes or how Vulture should be bald or any number of other things even if the races hadn't been changed. If anything, the changes made non-comics fans I know MORE excited, because they got to see themselves in the minorities that got represented in this film.
I dunno. I just feel like it's such a pointless thing to complain about when the change has made so many other people happy.
Quote from: Tomato on July 15, 2017, 04:47:37 PM
:rolleyes: Spade... Dude, I know you haven't seen the film, but the whole "no new ideas" thing is silly. They mined PLENTY of new material and ideas for this version (not all of which I personally cared for) and WAS a very fresh take on the mythology and that fact had nothing to do with casting. Liz Allen being the love interest, the implication that Michelle finds Peter intriguing for some reason, a villain that's a working class schmuck instead of a mad scientist, Not-Ganke being in a support role... I might not agree with changes like making Flash someone *I* could beat up, but they did play up the innate jealousy that's been a longtime part of Flash's character in the comics and hasn't been explored in film before.
Sure, comic boards like this are an echo chamber.
I dunno. I just feel like it's such a pointless thing to complain about when the change has made so many other people happy.
1. I take your word for it.See the previous few pages for many reasons why I dont feel like watching it.Or in short-superhero fatigue.
2.You noticed it too?
3.For the love of Kanye,not that argument again.
Kkhohoho: People are allowed to complain about it all they want but when it becomes nothing but a back-and-forth complaint routine between two folks with different opinions and both of them appear to be stuck 100% to their opinion only - and it seemed to me where this could've been heading - it becomes a waste of time and effort. Someone has to step aside and walk away at that point because it's a pointless exchange otherwise.
Spade: It used to not be a FR tradition and truthfully even if it had been, not all traditions are good. And while you might not think it an argument, the tone of both your's and Tomato's post read like a growing argument to some of us.
TBF, the argument I had was mostly directed at C6's original statement: I understand the opinion he meant, but the diversity checklist remark is offensive, and was bound to start a fight, regardless of his intentions. Spade stoking the fires for a movie he hasn't seen, admits he won't see, and being deliberately obtuse is par for the course. Heck, his "well if that doesn't start things nothing will" comment is him reacting to C6's post and hoping this exact fight would break out. Because otherwise why would he be discussing the film?
I would like to point out to spade, that things were perfectly calm and peaceful, C6 made his comment and everyone left it be, but you were the one who apparently cold not let that go and had to go fishing for an argument. This kind of discusion would not have launched had you not seen fit to provoke it. I am tempted now to look at past comment and see if you have been provoking similar argument in the past, but for my own sanity I won't.
That was really just an observation,since again,this happens for every movie.
Tomato,as always you internet-cold-reading are very sharp.I don't know how you managed to guess what I was thinking.Really,slow clap from me.by now,you probably also guessed my address and what I had for breakfast;based purely on a few sentences I wrote.
Now,feel free to report me,just like every other time I disagreed with you.
Or better yet,enjoy you echo chamber and keep up the good work.Bye-Bye,since I really have no more energy to read your SJW campaigns.
...and the blow up I was trying to prevent still happens. <sighs> Nobody ever listens or pays attention to what the old hand says...makes me wonder why I even try nowadays.
No pun intended , but can we please keep the conversation civil? Someone already reported trouble. Let's all play nice, M'kay?
DJ: you try because you have to, to wit:
No one is wrong here. It is not wrong for someone to wish for a more faithful adaptation of the character in the comic (whatever they feel that means), nor is it wrong for someone to like the "alternate" version presented in a movie. Look back at all the movies and TV adaptations of comics-there are versions that some will disagree with the casting and people who loved the choices (except maybe David Hasslehoff as Nick Fury... and the whole Jon Sable thing...). I'd love to see the version of the characters I grew up with, but, hey, those haven't even been in the comics for thirty years or more. And if comics stay around long enough, many of you may find yourselves in a situation similar to mine.
The depth of feeling we have for these characters is a tribute to the writers and artists that created them, and those writers and artists that followed.
This is probably not really a discussion an old white guy from Alabama ought to get into...
I agree with Spade, Tomato. Your SJW campaign of asking kindly for people to stop causing trouble while having the audacity to suggest non-white people's existence be reflected in movies is just too much. Stop setting our American flags on fire.
:doh:
<facepalm> That's it, I'm done with this section of the forum...tired of all the wasteful anger and drama...
I want to apologize to anyone who feels like I was belittling their opinions about how a proper adaptation includes doing justice to the appearance to a character. I do understand it... to the shock of probably no one here, it bothers me seeing movies set in, say, egypt cast all white actors. So on the one hand, yeah, I tend to feel that this sort of thing is the other shoe dropping and helps balance the scales somehow. And unlike in the egypt example, at least with stuff like homecoming we see groups represented that haven't seen a lot of love in superhero movies prior.
But I do get it. And as I have repeated: I'm not arguing C6's original points are invalid, because... they are absolutely valid, even if the wording could be better. As I have expressed, there are changes in this movie that frustrate me too, particularly Ned "Not-Ganke" Leeds. Not because I don't like that character, but because it is clearly not intended to be Ned Leeds in anything other than name. And the choice to cast flash thompson as a tiny dude whose butt *I* could kick is detrimental to his adaptation. But on the flipside, I don't feel like race factors into Liz Allen OR Michelle in any negative fashion, since both characters did their jobs in the film and I genuinely liked them both.
So there IS a legitimate discussion here. Not SJW bashing or the reverse, but an honest to goodness discussion about the actual changes they made to the characters and how those changes work in the context of the film.
Well, Tom, I'm glad to see you say that. We can all stand to try to be careful how we phrase things here. The problem we keep having on this forum seems to be that the way some of use phrase things rubs others the wrong way (and I admit my snarky self is guilty of it as well) and the thing we all got to remember is we've got a few different people here of different age groups and walks of life with different values and takes on things. What's important to you in an adaptation might be different for someone else. Just remember to try to be more civil. Because we may end up going through this at least once every two years though since the film made a bajillion dollars and is guaranteed sequels, and it's MCU so that means cameos ect.
I had a bunch of other stuff I wanted to say but I don't really have time right now and it's hot where I am, and I grow tired, so I may come back to it at a later film. In the meantime let's all please try to get our opinions accross without resorting to personal attacks.
Well said, SS. You covered most of what I wanted to say. I've been extremely busy today and haven't had the time to intervene here, but I'm disappointed with the way this conversation developed. I was able to check in a few times and I was saddened to see the way things were going.
Spade, I think your response here was stronger than was called for.
BWPS, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
'Mato, I also am glad to hear you say that. I was actually going to send you a message on that front. It's a sign of character to respond in this way.
As DJ said, this is just a movie. Of course, it's also much more than a movie, both because art is a reflection and a component of culture and because people are making assumptions about what lies behind the comments about said movie. That's the problem. Let's do each other the courtesy of treating each other's posts the way we'd want ours treated, I.E., judging them on what they say, and not what we assume about their motives, giving each other the benefit of the doubt.
So for discussion's sake, I'm gonna make a big old post on here with a ton of spoilers about my feelings on the direction the movie takes 3 of the supporting characters, Ned Leeds, Flash Thompson, and Michelle... no last name given. Warning, there will be a novel in the spoiler tags.
Spoiler
First of all, let's get the easy one out of the way: Ned Leeds. I've been pretty blunt about my opinion on this one: I have no problem with the casting, the acting, the direction, or the inclusion of this character into the story. My problem is that this is clearly NOT Ned Leeds, it's Ganke Lee. Now granted, I understand them not wanting to open that can of worms because people are still disappointed the MCU Spider-Man wasn't Miles Morales... but with this sort of character already in the MCU and, frankly, perfectly cast (Jacob Batalon looks like Ganke stepped right out of the pages of the comic book) even if Miles shows up later on, we're not going to see Ganke alongside him anyway. There is no reason not to call this character by the name he was clearly intended to have in the first place, because doing so displaces any potential use they could have later on for the ACTUAL Ned Leeds. Now this isn't as upsetting as it would be if they'd named him say, Harry Osborn, but I always kinda liked Ned in the classic stories and it is a shame to see him get overwritten in this way. Granted, I do like Ganke more, I just feel like they could have named him Ganke and used Ned as a background character to give the movie more texture, like they did with Betty.
Second... Flash Thompson. Aside from the decision to supplant Ned Leeds, this version of Eugene "Flash" Thompson is the easiest decision to point towards regarding... well, the fact that casting an Indian actor can be to the character's detriment. The comic book Flash Thompson might as well be the poster child for the "Jock Bully" stereotype, at least at first. But the character eventually evolved to a nuanced and layered member of Peter's supporting cast. And while I'm happy to see a version of the character that tries to do something different (and, y'know, couldn't have been easily replaced by a cardboard cutout in his scenes) this version is... problematic. On the one hand, he's completely believable in his role of bully to Peter, popular due to his family's money but also jealous of how Peter can sleep through class and still know more than him despite how hard he tries. On the other... while this version works as an interesting new take on the "School Bully" trope, it also doesn't leave itself open for this Flash to undergo the character growth the comic character has. I can't see this weeny surviving basic training, much less being chosen by the government to be bonded to the Venom symbiote. Like with "Ned," the problem with this version isn't so much how the change impacts Homecoming itself, it's that it limits the potential story options available for the character down the line.
Finally, Mar... I mean, "Michelle". Now, let's be real... while the moviemakers are still being coy about the line even now, it's pretty clear this is supposed to be this universe's MJ. Even if her final lines in the film didn't reveal this, the way she acts around Peter pretty much screams "I know you're Spider-Man and don't know how to respond to it" much like Mary Jane is retconned to have reacted in the comics. I went with a group of friends whose only exposure is the films and TV shows (none of which have adapted the MJ always knew plot point) and this fact was clear to all of them. So she's pretty clearly based on the comic book Mary Jane Watson, both in that detail and in her general attitude. Granted, she's not a 1:1 comparison, but I can easily see this character growing into the wild and bombastic MJ by the time she hits college.
As for her being a black actress... I feel like it's probably the most natural race change for any of the characters in the main cast, though admittedly for some pretty cynical reasons. Back in the 60s and 70s, Mary Jane being a redhead was a visual shorthand for her fiery and impulsive nature. You knew, based on her hair color, how she'd probably act in most situations. It was a pretty common shorthand for the era, with its roots partly based on Scottish stereotypes, and it came in handy for keeping both readers and writers on the same page as far as how she should be written.
However, while the shorthand still exists... it's not nearly as popular or as prevalent as it once was. For my generation and likely the ones after it, it's a stereotype that's mostly faded... partly because it's been supplanted by nonsense like South Park's "redheads have no souls" idiocy (UGH) but also because the media we consume has much less of that stereotype then media even a decade or so ago. Heck, the most notable fictional character with red hair I remember growing up was Lily Potter, perfect mother.
By comparison... and I know this is going to sound awful, but the "sassy black girl" trope is far more notable, and does the same job of acting as visual shorthand for my generation as the "fiery redhead" trope does for generations prior. Is it racist? Oh, absolutely it is, arguably more so than the fiery redhead trope is despite that trope having its own roots in racist stereotypes. However, for a modern audience, and with only so much screen time to devote to the character, it's the sort of shorthand necessary to establish the character quickly in the mind of a modern audience.
And again, don't misunderstand: Zendaya does a fantastic job in the role, and clearly has great chemistry with Tom Holland's Peter Parker despite her character not being the love interest in Homecoming. She's able to portray a very subtle arc throughout the movie, and some of her scenes, particularly mocking Peter in detention, are highlights on the comedic end as well. My point is only that, if the intent of her having red hair is to act as visual shorthand for her personality, it's a trope with little impact on my generation.
Sorry, I was having surgery. So real belated. On current I'm not speaking for anyone but myself but I don't actually get personal about anything online anymore sans a death in my local news. It's easy enough without personal exchange to project educed Pavlovian response but the fact is no one else is in anyone else's mind and therefore can't construct a proper image of another's current paradigmatic state. Or to speak of the now well established research into psychological button pushing online via traditional narcissists where a different point of view is misconstrued as a "one-up" (as it disagreement too closely resembles cognitive dissonance without emotional tone of course) and/or the establishment of libel (reality is this place is small water drop in the scheme of an ocean in oceans). To sum it up but we aren't here to discuss social discourse I'm sure. Know in my case if am offended ever, I will type those words exactly as I tend to be blunt. Fact is I almost never will be because I simply outgrew it more or less. I'll read it and move on to eating some M&M's. Hold that thought. *munch munch crunch munch* If any of you are ever personal offended by my words I'd ask that you tell me though a PM is probably the best place to iron out such things and I'd happily rectify myself. Phew. Back to comic movies.
At cat, sorry I confused what you wrote. I guess we stand aloft on that one. My logic is that potentially anything can be a great movie. I can think of how I would like any comic book movie to play out and have done so since childhood as I'm sure has everyone. But I face static evidence in contrast to my desires and the evidence I see thus far is the Fantastic 4 never translating well to cinema, yes including Corman. To say it could never of course not but as it stands to date adaptation of the comic has just fallen short. As the comic itself can be written to the point of accolades that tells me that the series itself isn't the issue rather the valley between it's concept and what current Hollywood has as far as resources to bridge that space.
Again not to say that can never change, but just where I stand. If were digging farther I believe what that franchise needed and could use in a reboot say if potentially it switched hands to the MCU proper is a prior establishment, like say one based on The Books Of Doom to concrete his character first, then tie his relations to Strange, then the first family as it were. But I also believe that to get the notion of family to a larger audience as any marketing group would declare it needs to be relatable and I think for that and as far as the term "family" goes we need to zip ahead and get the children involved. In fact the Future Foundation model lends itself even more to the big screen when I think about it. And of course Disney plus family film literal equals win. But hey, believing and seeing, seeing and believing and so forth.
As far as the topic of race of actors and/or in-canon characters I'm going to short and sweet because that is a powder keg topic as much as religion is and equally as unresolved. I don't care imo.
1.) It's a different canon. I interpret it as such.
2.) If the actor brings an entertaining performance and better pitches the core qualities of the fictional counterpart well it works for me.
3.) I believe in the cases of comics, film and otherwise that putting more diversity in is a good thing in light of the fact that it can't be denied that fiction does influence, and fiction larger targeted at youth in this very case, and taking responsibility for what we teach youth and making an effort to let them be more open to other cultures and less to prejudice or at least providing that option is something I'll get behind however the means to ends. Certainly the opposite course has done nothing else thus far if just nothing at all. I had my eras take and still keep it with my inner child so I'm at no loss.
4.) In the film industry itself the unions are required by Federal law to uphold fair hiring practices as are any other large commercial entities. There's no logistical pathway around that, it's just the law and it seems often neglected by critics. It isn't the 70's anymore to paraphrase.
Else this is again my personal feelings on that subject as again I recognize it as one of those things that does literally come down to ones preference and anothers, and really there isn't going to be a budge in that in our lifetime. Your going to like what you like and I'm going to like what I like. No one is in any event actually wrong when it comes to tastes. Speaking of which M&M's. *munch munch crunch munch*. Anyways I enjoyed Homecoming overall again. Also DJ, you should change your signature to the MST3K Mantra if anything jest for giggles.
Peace.
Yall trippin...
I have seen the movie and have some thoughts on it. However, at the moment, my concern is this discussion.
And, it has been a civil discussion, mostly. From a moderation perspective, that's great. The problem typically arises when things take a personal turn. That includes portraying someone who posts a different view as though they are exhibiting some sort of social or moral deficiency. And, that portrayal occurs both when someone directly says, "Your view indicates that you are a [fill-in-the-blank]-ist" and when mocking someone by "adopting" their view in a way that makes it clear the mocker thinks the mocked is some class of bad person.
(BTW, someone might actually conclude that another poster is a bad person. Being judgemental is part of life. The point here is that FR is not the place to post that conclusion.)
Discuss the movies and aspects that are good and not-so-good. But, refrain from implying that there is something wrong with members who disagree.
Well said, Stumpy.
QuoteThe casting came off more like diversity check list for a Sunny D commercial than anything else.
The comedy was weak and cringey as hell at points. Eye rolling dialogue like the pointless slavery banter at the expense of Michelle's white (therefore lame) professor. Marvel comics are absolutely riddled this "Identity Politics" crap and are suffering badly for it. Keep it out of the movies.
Uh, since when it has been in the harmonious spirit of this board to refer to multiracial casting as a "diversity checklist", etc?
Does C6 get a reprimand too or is everyone just more comfortable dog-piling on Tomato and Spade?
'Mato and others already spent a page pointing out that C6's comments were not phrased well. However, his comment was not attacking anyone else, and until he cares to explain himself, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume nefarious motives for his post. That is precisely what were were just talking about, after all.
I say we just lock this thread and start a new one to talk about Marvel Movies otherwise this has the potential to reflare/continue. Just my thoughts and , as has been shown quite often lately, mean diddly squat.
Quote from: BentonGrey on July 18, 2017, 02:35:38 PM
'Mato and others already spent a page pointing out that C6's comments were not phrased well. However, his comment was not attacking anyone else, and until he cares to explain himself, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume nefarious motives for his post. That is precisely what were were just talking about, after all.
Not phrased well? I mean, I'm a grown up and I don't take offense easily, but as party of a "diversity community", it's a hard to not take offense by it. I can't help but to wonder and ask "what's wrong with diversity?" That and the comment about the teacher being "lame" BECAUSE he's white(as if Peter or Toomes were lame), it's kind of hard to divorce any comments specifically about changing the source material vs being race specific to the point of disparaging. There's a line there. Benton, you and I have BOTH been critical of such changes and I think it's fair criticism. But I didn't think that was fair to be honest. The comments seemed more focused on the diversity of the cast than specifically about certain characters. Just my opinion... in case anyone wanted to ask a black dude.
QuoteI say we just lock this thread and start a new one to talk about Marvel Movies otherwise this has the potential to reflare/continue. Just my thoughts and , as has been shown quite often lately, mean diddly squat.
Personally, if we're talking about locking the thread, I think we should move all the posts regarding Homecoming to the Homecoming thread. This is a thread for all Marvel movies, and it'd be a shame for it to be locked because of Homecoming.
Shogunn, not for nothing, but you're not helping. In addition to an Admin saying to knock it off, Benton (and I) have been trying to be diplomatic, while you're being confrontational. I actually have a lot to say on the matter (as I said earlier in the thread the other day) but honestly I probably shouldn't say anything because I don't want to rile people up. What I will say, specifically since you brought it up, is I
don't find C6's comment offensive. I find the dogpiling on C6 for that one brief post offensive.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on July 18, 2017, 07:52:02 PM
QuoteI say we just lock this thread and start a new one to talk about Marvel Movies otherwise this has the potential to reflare/continue. Just my thoughts and , as has been shown quite often lately, mean diddly squat.
Personally, if we're talking about locking the thread, I think we should move all the posts regarding Homecoming to the Homecoming thread. This is a thread for all Marvel movies, and it'd be a shame for it to be locked because of Homecoming.
That's why I suggested starting a new Marvel Movies thread...but your idea works too. Just tired of the potential anger/hatred that keeps reflaring it seems like....
Once again, well said, SS.
Shogunn, I hope you know that I have great respect for you and am always particularly interested in your thoughts on this topic. That being said, SS is right, and I think restraint and diplomacy are what is called for here given the fact that tempers are clearly high. To be fair, I did rather mean what I said; C6's phrasing was, I think the problem. I stated it that way because I think I know him well enough to know that he's a decent fellow and A) would not intentionally be ugly to members of the community and B) is not insensitive or racist. Thus, I assume that what he meant is rather something different than what folks have taken from his statement, going back to my point about giving each other the benefit of the doubt. Do I think the statement came off badly? Yeah.
I do think that it was poorly phrased, or, perhaps (?), poorly developed. I won't try to speak for the man, and, honestly, I don't have much desire to engage in this debate in the current climate, but I think I can understand where he was coming from. After all, we all know that there is a tendency for producers and the powers that be in Hollywood to have a very cynical and soulless approach to the products they create. They tick the boxes they know are likely to create something marketable. Love interest? Check. Handsome cast? Check. Big names? Check. Those of us old enough to remember the 90s with clarity probably remember this attitude applied to diversity all over the place. There's even an entire trope for it on TV Tropes:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveTokenBand
Now, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends largely on the application and your perspective, and that era had the very fortunate effect of leading to a more natural and organic diversity in our media by normalizing the presence of minorities. So, even if a text in question was a product of a soulless corporate checklist resulting in a catalog of marketable cliches (and I can certainly think of cartoons that were very much like this), there was a positive side to the trend. Nonetheless, I don't think anyone would argue that actually thoughtful, organic, and intentional choices produce better art, no matter what category you're talking about. That includes character races.
Now, I haven't seen the movie (can't wait!), so I can't comment on whether C6's views are off-base or not, but let's reserve judgement until he explains what he meant, if folks haven't driven him off already. And, more importantly, as I've been stressing, let's try to grant each other the benefit of the doubt.
Quote'Mato and others already spent a page pointing out that C6's comments were not phrased well. However, his comment was not attacking anyone else, and until he cares to explain himself, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume nefarious motives for his post. That is precisely what were were just talking about, after all.
He phrased some insensitive comments that diminished racial representation in the movie and comics quite well, I thought.
Also, any time you write something desultory about diversity or "identity politics", you're indirectly attacking someone. This is a multiracial board, after all...
QuoteShogunn, not for nothing, but you're not helping. In addition to an Admin saying to knock it off, Benton (and I) have been trying to be diplomatic, while you're being confrontational. I actually have a lot to say on the matter (as I said earlier in the thread the other day) but honestly I probably shouldn't say anything because I don't want to rile people up. What I will say, specially since you brought it up, is I don't find C6's comment offensive. I find the dogpiling on C6 for that one brief post offensive.
Shogunn wrote "what's wrong with diversity?" in reply to "The casting came off more like diversity check list for a Sunny D commercial than anything else" ... and
Shogunn is being confrontational? :blink:
People have hardly been dogpiling on C6 - if anyone got dogpiled on here, it was Tomato just for pointing out C6's comments were out-of-line.
Lock the post, but the same kind of unaddressed comments will always cause the same kind of flare ups. You're better off deleting or editing C6's comment.
Well, I'm glad my message was so well received and my efforts so well rewarded. Starman, I don't know how much more clearly I could say, 'this isn't productive; let it go,' while still being polite, so let me put it this way: This isn't productive; let it go.
I've been trying to stay out of this debate, but it seems that it's no longer a discussion about the original topic, and has since focused on less pleasant subject matter. Our Community no longer has the active membership that it previously had, and as much as I'd like to say otherwise, a discussion like this would serve as nothing more than a driving point to push new members away.
Regardless of the intent, a comment was made here, while some have moved forward, others have not. I would hate to see bridges burned, I know how hard they are to rebuild, if they are ever rebuilt at all. As such, since there has already been one request to lock this thread, I am going to second that request. I'm sorry if this offends or upsets anyone, but since the discussion is having such a difficult time staying civil, I feel that this is the best course of action.
All hate mail can be sent to me via PM, I'd rather that than see our Community self destruct over this.
The Titans and mods are considering the matter. In the meantime, I think it's safe to say that everyone has been warned about civility. Please keep that in mind and consider further posts carefully.
Quote from: BentonGrey on July 18, 2017, 09:57:46 PM
The Titans and mods are considering the matter. In the meantime, I think it's safe to say that everyone has been warned about civility. Please keep that in mind and consider further posts carefully.
One of these days I'm going to have to get that Titan thingie...:P
Quote from: Deaths Jester on July 18, 2017, 10:01:34 PM
Quote from: BentonGrey on July 18, 2017, 09:57:46 PM
The Titans and mods are considering the matter. In the meantime, I think it's safe to say that everyone has been warned about civility. Please keep that in mind and consider further posts carefully.
One of these days I'm going to have to get that Titan thingie...:P
And have you drink all our booze? You've got to be crazy! :lol:
Um, BentonGrey, you posted a
massive wall of text literally one minute before I posted my comparatively meager reply. If anyone needs to "let it go"...
I'll add: making lengthy excuses for somebody else's blunt comments in their absence (with a side of "let's reserve judgement until he explains what he meant") doesn't help anything at all. It certainly isn't being diplomatic.
QuoteI won't try to speak for the man, and, honestly, I don't have much desire to engage in this debate in the current climate, but I think I can understand where he was coming from.
Sigh... :rolleyes:
* throws a towel and spit bucket into the ring before zipping back to whatever it is I do *
#sidenote: Yes and I am the best there is at whatever I do and whatever is eat Skittles while staring blankly at the alarm clock.
Oh and to be on-topic, not just because but I've been thinking about this, what's anyone think about Milana Vayntrub as Squirrel Girl?
I'm largely unfamiliar until the very announcement but watched some of her online sketch comedy (Prude Girls Live or something) and think
she'll be a good fit. She has the spunk and look for it and more gets the nuances of proper comedy like subtle gesture and such.
Again though only from recent minimum exposure to her and well long time maximum exposure to the character.
Back to some rainbow tasting escapades then...
*steps in the spit bucket on the way out*
"SPLORSHY!"
:doh:
I'm not really a Squirrel Girl fan at all, but from the picture I saw she looks like a perfectly decent choice to play the character. I still kinda wish Anna Kendrick got to play her like she wanted.
The New Warriors tv show looks...neat. Like the Runaways and Cloak and Dagger shows it's way too early for me to get a good sense of what they'll be like or if they'll be any good, but the casting looks good. I'll say this, I was pretty happy with the Runaways casting. They look great for the most part. I'm a little iffy on Chase but he might be fine. And I'm fully expecting Molly to be an Inhuman (she almost certainly won't be an Mutant, that's for sure).
I'm more iffy on the big streaming service coup Marvel and DC are going whole hog on these days. As I mentioned in the Star Trek thread, everyone's trying to get a piece of the Netflix pie these days so now in addition to shows like Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Shield, Gotham, Inhumans and a new X-Men show, we also have stuff like Legion on FX (I still haven't seen it, but I want to. The first episode aired on basic cable in Canada, and I really liked that, I just haven't gotten to see any more yet), Titans (along with Young Justice) on a new DC streaming site, it's just a little annoying and hard to keep track off. I'd watch some of this stuff, but they're all on different networks, some of which I don't get (I'm positive I don't get Freeform) so who knows if I (and others, of course) will get to see these. Plus, while I'm not a "superhero fatigue" guy...man that's a lot of superhero shows.
One thing on the dispute and I'm done:
Starman - I wasn't dogpiling on anyone. I was calling the whole thing out of line esp seeing as it is nothing but a summer superhero movie (ie sit back and enjoy it as entertainment). Sorry if it came out as dogpiling on 'mato and them. As for the racial tension, that was the reason I wanted it locked because currently this thread is full of anger and drama...no good discussion comes about in that emotional whirlwind. What we need to do is diffuse this, take a breath, step back, calm down, and then have a true, meaningful discussion on it.
But what do I know? Not like people care...and I'm done.
Shocker: Dear Satan, that is a whole load of superhero fatigue potential! Looks like they didn't learn from the 70s and 80s over-saturation...
I know right? I don't blame anyone who says "there's too many Superhero movies/tv shows" at this point!
Speaking personally for myself, it'd be one thing if it was stuff I'm not a fan of (like say, Ka-Zar or Warlord, or Kamandi or something) but I like all of the properties I just mentioned. And while I didn't used to be a fan of Legion, I've started reading his X-Men Legacy run while waiting for my chance to see more of the show, and he's growing on me.
Last post I make before I leave this discussion alone too:
I want to say for the record that I do not feel that anyone in this thread has "attacked" me or "dogpiled" on me. I respect the points made by everyone arguing with me the last few pages of this thread (yes, even Spade. I may think he was trolling, but he DID bring up valid points) and, if anything, the people trying to defend me have been more frustrating than the people supposedly attacking me. I don't like the phrasing of C6's comment either, but even I feel it's long since been addressed by this point. And it kinda disgusts me to see people continuing to use me and my posts to justify continually attacking other board members. I may DISAGREE with them, but that is the entire POINT of discussion. Benton in particular is a good friend of mine, and we are probably going to continue discussing Homecoming in a civil manner via PM.
SS: I feel you on there being a ton of comic book shows to keep track of. People always ask me if I watch non-superhero tv shows, but I'm like "Do you even understand how many Marvel/DC shows I have on my plate right now!?! I don't have time to watch ___ seasons of ____"
Getting caught up on long-running tv shows is time consuming. I was behind in Walking Dead for a good 2 years and it's too bad, because when I finally caught up I found the show got a lot better.
I watch a lot of stuff in groups so that helps.
Anyone making streaming shows is understandable. It is or may be the next platform. Getting in now means having a solid place in it's future if it does outmode conventional cable service. It always seems improbable now but I remember when that was thought about satellite exclusive shows (namely SciFI channel, Comedy Channel and Cartoon Network as well the Howard Stern Show got it's start there). Or reality tv shows. Second, and I read this a few times, streaming free's artists up from editorial and network dictation and allows them to do the kind of shows they want to. Or at least not have their pitch sitting in a board room full of executives for the next year or so.
Saturation agreed. And how! I'm probably worse then most though. The most I saw of Agents Of SHIELD was the first season, past that I've only caught cinematic releases and three out of four on video release. No biggie though, I haven't nor do read every comic released either. I have had Legion pitched at me a few times though and read and loved the run it was based on. That one gets a maybe in downtime check.
Anyways, your all people and great people. Your all humans and have emotions sometimes. We all have problems relating ourselves and with composition at times. No one in this thread is a villain. Okay, I am. But I'm also super lazy so the world needn't worry. On the topic any of you seem to be at odds about you all also seem to have stated your stances, intents and feelings towards the issue. You still all respect what another thinks and thats something, just what I'm reading imo *shrug* (I still say I miss the fun stuff when I'm in the ER, lol). Else if I may what I usually see in situations where there's a charred string of posts in a thread is the brass just deletes/omits that chunk from where they determine it began to ended. Just my suggestion. Else and finally on that the topic of racism, bigotry, and the interpretation of what is offensive and how to rectify the situation is an important one. Perhaps a separate topic for that alone? Naturally with a disclaimer and something like " no hitting below the bread basket ". Or "dogpiling " either it seems jk (not even sure what that is but I detest animal abuse). Yadda yadda, have a fresh cup of OJ, hug and what not. Won't matter to any of you that much a week from now if it hasn't already fizzled out like I said in my former post so might as well not yield it now either, eh? Stay fantastic people.
QUICK SEQUE:
You dang kids! Get off me lawn!
Now where de 'ell is me vodka?!?
They were peeing on it! And they where in their fifties! You'd throw a hammer at too, yeesh. :rolleyes:
Just a quick note for anyone that might be interested, I was just giving MY perspective coming from someone that would be considered "diversity". That's all. I'm not even mad. In fact, I don't know what's all the fuss is about as far as "lock this thread" and stuff. I didn't really think anyone was out of line really.
But... that said, Tomato, I hope you're reading THIS part:
Technically speaking, they never used the name "Ned Leeds" in the movie. Though that probaby won't help your problems you have with the character, I just thought I'd point it out it could(could) be someone else.
That's commendable Shogunn. Full disclosure there's been a pretty scathing term flipped out here and there that from my end is a real no-no, but likewise I'm not getting riled either and just kept reading. I pretty much notice intent in all things, part of my clinical training, and haven't seen any yet. Bringing up things and terms that are charred and disparaging yes, but I don't see anyone going guns blazing at anyone with those things in the barrels either. Again I wasn't present though and I'm more focused on my own physical thing right now so more *shrug*.
Else back on topic. Anyone who has taken in the volume of Marvel based shows I would ask what they believe of them is the one that's the most imperative to watch, the must see. I'm interested myself and add episodes in my down time here and there but like Tomato here and others just don't have the time to see em all.
-
Actually I'm going to edit here and hit on topic one of three as well. As far as Homecoming is concerned I don't think any of you have been wrong but I'm wondering if your keying into the why or not. Peter is a white teenager. His classmates and friends that he pays the most attention to and has repertoires with are not. His teacher is an old lame white guy. The Vulture is an older white jerk, which he actually is in the comics anyways. The why is pretty standard though and it's marketing. Disney acquired Marvel back when for a primary reason and it was that they had issues getting the attention, favor and of course monies of teenage boys.
So take a look at this version of Peter and align it to any current demographic studies of white boys his age (current again, not when we we're kids). You'll find this is pretty inline with how white guys his age actually think. And I'll add here the US has changed and diversity has been more spread out especially over the course of the past decade. The melting pot effect is now in full swing and whereas yourself as a child may have say attended a high school that only had a handful of students and/or faculty that were not white or you were one of those few diverse these days that isn't the case at all. In most public school system classrooms and out to city populations there is widely more diverse spectrum of people then there was when Spider-man the comic book was conceived. So this is actually logical.
Back to Peter and boys his age, despite artistic integrity foremost it is a product and needs to make money. It needs to pay back it's initial investment and to do that has to sell x2 that gross in net, not even speaking of the shareholders here and all the people involved in the film getting checks and royalties. Nor the current state of piracy and the chunk that takes out of projected revenue. And so forth. The point I'm driving is of yes it does not match the Peter you grew up with. Because it's not supposed to. That Peter was meant to sell to your demographic. It wasn't foremost artistic either. But that day is long gone and this Peter is for all intents and purposes meant to the Spider-man for this generation, generation of course meaning children his age not adults ours. Because there parent are the ones that are going to be buying them all the merchandise related to it. There the ones that are going to for example buy up trapper keepers with Peter in his homemade costume fighting the Vulture next month for the school year. And again it isn't all immoral either anyways. It can be said it's a good thing to appeal to youth and let them have something in fact it is the priority of most parents and peers. As well imo again laying out the option for children, especially white boys, to have a role model that encourages them to respect diversity as well the opposite sex isn't a bad thing because the opposite turn certainly hasn't done any good in raising open minded and kinder adults.
So in summation all of you are correct in that the things your pointing out in the film are in fact in it, also no fault of your own as you did not put them there but are you sure it's actually a flaw in the production and/or does the state of an enterprise in a long past era really have any baring on one in 2017? In case that's too vague what I'm saying is as a comic book diehard I've read the notion " Doesn't match the source material " as often as have you all. And it clearly does not but what I'm asking is how does that have any real import on the current motion vehicle? Because I can't follow the logic there, not when weighing it against the entire audience for this media. The keyword here is adaptation.
That's what I got out of all this in the briefest nutshell I could type.
That's quite the brief nutshell, SA. ;)
Anyway, I hear what you're saying. And although there's the line between those that prefer a strict adherence to the source material and those that don't mind changes because of it being, what you said an "adaptation" or what others have said a different "MCU Universe" and that's all well and good.
But in some cases it's just weird. Like Michelle. Okay you want to call her MJ. Fine. You want her to be Peter's love interest? Fine. Don't want to give her the red hair and say it's more metaphorical than anything? Okay, I'll let it slide. Then just call the girl Mary Jane already. Lol. Rather she is or she isn't. It's like they tried to put half their foot in and one out. I think Zendaya did a splendid enough job either way and would love to see more of her, whether she's "Michelle Jane" or "Mary Jane", black white or purple.
Not a huge gripe. It's whatever... just weird.
For me it is. When I don't get it down in detail then I confuse people. So more *shrugs* Shruggle McShruggleMuch in here.
I get the fine line too. I'm an eighties kid. So me I'm looking at it going "erm". But just hitting on the why's of it and why it doesn't constitute a flaw in film making, which comic fans tend to point to it as. It doesn't align with ones preference, understandable and totally in the right even. But that doesn't mean it's produced wrong either. Thing is as hard as it can be to even swallow these things only matter in a large way to people who read lots of superhero comic books. It's burnt into our retinas so much that we can't help but to see it stand out. Like picture a person raised in a bunker who is shown pictures of the sun but it's blue. Then they see the actual sun and of course even after being detailed on how it's supposed to be it's going to stand out to them. At least for so much as time before they adjust to it, hence the nature of change and the human minds struggle against. The other part of that jagged pill is those of us who devote to reading comics are a tiny fraction of a worldwide released major motion pictures audience, perhaps even the smallest demographics that will actually be paying to see it. Not because a large number aren't getting there but comic diehards are a minority. Hence retroactively anyone producing the film is going to look at the majority of their customer demographic and what appeals to them first and foremost. Like I cared that Juggernaut was a mutant as well. Most of the people that watched and enjoyed the film and the film version of the character wouldn't be affected by such a thing.
Just pointing this out. We are here so of course the amount of comic diehards is 100% right here and now, so it matters to us. But it doesn't denote production quality regardless and now that the numbers are in this sucker...whoo, looks like they did something very right by a lot of peoples accounts.
Yeah, I get that. Like I understand Tomato's gripe with Ned. I've heard others say similar. The thing is I wasn't a big reader of Miles Morales's Spider-Man so I had no frame of reference. Even Donald Glover's "yeah I have a nephew that lives in the city" went on deaf ears and I wouldn't know known anything about it until I was told days later. So if Tomato says Ned is pretty much all the characteristics of "Ganke" but just named "Ned" instead it wouldn't bother me. Or many others who aren't as familiar with the book at Tomato is. But since he's familiar with the book, I can see how it might stick out and I respect that.
Nice analogy with the sun though.
Did a bit of digging on a few things, figured I'd share them
-Michelle in the MCU is credited as "Michelle Jones," thus the "MJ" nickname. I'm kinda with Shogunn, I wish they'd just call her Mary Jane, but the way it was presented it was supposed to be a "Surprise" in the last minutes of the film (which is why I kept trying to spoiler that bit initially, but oh well).
-Ned's last name isn't given in the film, but I wouldn't be shocked if down the line he's credited as "Ned Lee," which is not only a natural mix of "Ned Leeds" and "Ganke Lee" but also the name given to Ned in the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon. Ironically, Ganke has used "Ned" as a pseudonym in the comics, but it was more recently and that may have a nod and wink to the film choice rather than the other way around.
Again, I think my only issue with Ned is that because he's a "mix" of both characters, it leaves little room for us to see both.
So I came across a cool little MCU related article today I thought I'd share:
http://io9.gizmodo.com/tom-holland-confirms-that-peter-parker-appeared-in-iron-1796423390
QuoteFor years, it was one of the better fan theories out there, and now it's confirmed to be true: Peter Parker was in Iron Man 2.
"It is Peter Parker," Spider-Man: Homecoming star Tom Holland told The Huffington Post.
He's referring to a moment near the end of Iron Man 2 when a young boy wearing an Iron Man mask at the Stark Expo stands up to Hammer drone. Then Iron Man comes down and saves him. "Nice work, kid," he says. Here's the scene:
We never see the kid's face and fans had long thought that could have been Peter Parker, since a) he lives in Queens, which is where the Stark Expo was held; b) Peter would be interested in technology and a fan of Tony Stark/Iron Man; and c) the age lines up.
Now granted, this is totally retconned in and Holland later clarified this (He had a conversation with Feige about it and was allowed to say it, but it clearly was not intended from the beginning) but it's still a really cool bit of trivia to have out there.
Yeah, I heard about that a week or so ago. Neat.
I have to say I had an issue with this movie's MJ. Mary Jane is the life of the party, or at least that's how she was written in the classic comics. She was upbeat, positive, and outgoing-- a good reason why many people liked her better than Gwen. Homecoming's MJ was the opposite. Her defining personality trait was being critical of her friends/surroundings. If this was how she was written in the ol' Stan Lee/John Romita comics, I bet Gwen would be alive today.
Interesting point, Ouflah. My on-again-off-again reading of the Spider-Man comics left me with a similar impression that MJ was sort of a popular kid, which isn't what we saw in this movie.
However, another aspect of MJ that showed up in comics was that she had other troubles in her life that she hid from most people at school. And, there is plenty of room for that part of her backstory to develop with this movie's MJ. Hiding something with popularity can make a character interesting, but so can hiding something with standoffish behavior. Obviously, we didn't see any hidden aspects of the new version yet, because we didn't learn much about her at all. But, it would easily fit with what we have seen if they decide to explore it.
Also, I think a quirky/nerdy MJ fits well with the backdrop of a science magnet high school. And, keeping in mind that Peter is basically a genius, I'd sort of have an easier time believing something between him and an MJ who could keep up than at least one earlier movie MJ, who was, well, not-so-brainy.
And, to be honest, while I wasn't overwhelmed by this movie, I was actually glad that it wasn't another Peter-and-his-awkward-dating showcase. Yes, I understand that that is part of the teen experience and there was definitely some of it in SM:H. But, it's not the most interesting part of Peter's story and, after the previous several movies carpet bombing us with that, I am happy for a break.
Another thing to remember is, this is MJ specifically as a freshman in High School. Remember, the MJ from the classic comics? She's from Peter's college years. A LOT can happen from high school to where we see her in SM:H. And as stumpy pointed out, there's layers to her attitude in college as well: we know that a lot of her "party girl" attitude was a pose to deflect attention from how broken her home life was, which is part of why she gravitated towards both Harry and Peter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ILCTco-9vo&index=1&list=WL (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ILCTco-9vo&index=1&list=WL)
An interesting commentary on the current state of Spider-Man.With a good deal of focus on Homecoming.
No,really,where is Uncle Ben in this movie?There is never any indication that Peter and aunt May have financial problems either.
There's apparently lots of credible rumors that Disney is close to buying out most of 21st Century Fox, which means they would own the film rights to X-Men and Fantastic Four again. It seems unlikely at this point that the X-men could be made to fit into the current Marvel movie universe, but the Fantastic Four could with no problems. This I would like to see.
Yeah, as much as Disney acquiring yet more power and companies is probably bad for all of us long-term, I would love to see the Fantastic Four actually return to Marvel and get the treatment they deserve.
I think Avengers 4 is wrapping in a few weeks or next month or so, which would make it hard to imagine they'd included anything X-Men/Fantastic 4 related there. Perhaps reshoots with added dialogue referencing Professor Xavier or Reed Richards, etc.
However, I'd think they're making this deal for everything Phase 4. Disney might just stop with Avengers and do X-Men related films....
Of course this all depends on the details of the deal... finalized later today apparently.
Fantastic Four being part of Phase Four of MCU seems like a huge deal but there is a slight wrinkle.. FOX owns the distribution and production rights but the actual character rights belong to Contantin Film (a German film company who snagged them during the Marvel bankruptcy movie rights super sale) and they were the brains behind every single film that FOX did and even pushed through the infamous Roger Corman Fantastic Four. We can only hope that Kevin Feige has had them on speed dial these last few weeks to make sure that Contantin is willing to let his film team do the job right or include their character rights as some kind of side deal with acquiring FOX's films as a whole package.
Guess we will find out during Marvel/Disney's announcement when the U.S. Stock Market opens and their media blitz over the course of the day.
- CQ
Oh, I'd just love to see Marvel Studios actually pull off calling the next Spider-Man film.. Homecoming Chapter 2.. which reveals that after the whole Thanos event that Avengers Tower was purchased by Reed Richards and Spidey runs into the MCU's team during his second year of being New York's guardian wall-crawler and ends with Peter's old costume being destroyed forcing him to wear one of the Fantastic Four's spare suits with a sack over his head for at least a scene or two before getting his Spider-Armor out of Tony's Armory (I'm still thinking that Tony only allows Peter to access this armor during emergencies to keep him from being overpowered all the time).
On one hand we might actually get an F4 comic,on the other hand homogenization of pop culture continues.
And the deal is officially done. What exactly this will mean for the stray Marvel properties is not yet completely clear, but it seems likely that Disney would want to fold in the stuff that it can.
Also,that solves the problem with Excalibur movie rights.And also makes Avengers vs X-men movie possible. :o
If I had to put money on things, I'd estimate that any sort of merger/development with Fox's Marvel properties will happen around Avengers 4 in 2019. That gives both studios time to finish whatever films are in the works, maybe start moving things in the direction of a crossover/reboot, but then also have the big tentpole film to bring that to fruition. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the reason they decided to change the name of Infinity War II was partly because of this merger.
Quote from: Tomato on December 15, 2017, 02:24:12 PM
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the reason they decided to change the name of Infinity War II was partly because of this merger.
Agreed! I'm 150% sure that once Isaac Perlmutter gave up his seat at the Marvel table to tackle more political ambitions that Bob Iger and Kevin Feige dropped some paperwork about their arrangement with Sony in Fox's Inbox. However, Rupert Murdoch was already thinking of trimming down FOX to just it's news and sports divisions which made for some very interesting behind the scenes talks between all involved parties. Disney wanted to get X-Men and Fantastic Four under their cinematic banner and desperately wanted access to the original prints of The Star Wars Trilogy so they had HUGE motivation to use this deal to complete those franchises once and for all. I'm sure once Disney was very close to finalizing the deal in time for Christmas 2017 they cleared their production slate including their plans for Infinity War Part II so much larger events can be set in motion.
- CQ
Since I dont feel like starting a thread,anyone seen Runaways?
Yeah, I've been watching Runaways. Like Star Trek Discovery, it airs on actual tv in Canada. I like it, the cast is great (both the kids and adults, who unlike the comic, are legitimate main characters). It takes a LOT of liberties with the source material. Which I think works out pretty well for a tv version of it that might not necessarily deliver on the further Marvel connections.
So you soundtrack for a movie about an African king is American rap.Makes sense?
Would you prefer Beethoven?
Does it really matter?
Quote from: HarryTrotter on January 04, 2018, 08:07:18 PM
So you soundtrack for a movie about an African king is American rap.Makes sense?
Yes, because the primary target audience is African Americans whom marketing people would presume would have more than a passing familiarity with such type of music.
PS: I am hoping the Black Panther is as dope as the one trailer I saw made it look. He was awesome in Civil War, I thought.
Yeah, hopefully the movie will be good, but I will second that he was awesome in Civil War. That was literally what I was thinking when I came out of the theater after watching CA:CW.
Quote from: UnkoMan on January 05, 2018, 01:27:31 AM
Quote from: HarryTrotter on January 04, 2018, 08:07:18 PM
So you soundtrack for a movie about an African king is American rap.Makes sense?
Yes, because the primary target audience is African Americans whom marketing people would presume would have more than a passing familiarity with such type of music.
PS: I am hoping the Black Panther is as dope as the one trailer I saw made it look. He was awesome in Civil War, I thought.
Your whole answer boils down to "cuz hes black", you do realize that?
Wait, he's black?!? I thought he was cordoroy?!? (Couldn't help the joke...sorry...)
Quote from: HarryTrotter on January 05, 2018, 05:07:45 AM
Quote from: UnkoMan on January 05, 2018, 01:27:31 AM
Quote from: HarryTrotter on January 04, 2018, 08:07:18 PM
So you soundtrack for a movie about an African king is American rap.Makes sense?
Yes, because the primary target audience is African Americans whom marketing people would presume would have more than a passing familiarity with such type of music.
PS: I am hoping the Black Panther is as dope as the one trailer I saw made it look. He was awesome in Civil War, I thought.
Your whole answer boils down to "cuz hes black", you do realize that?
Because in this case it's true? He's one of the first, if not the first, black superheroes to helm a blockbuster movie. And it's a character who's genuinely awesome in his own right. I can't blame people for wanting to hype that up. I would have preferred them to go with more traditional African music as most of the character are not African Americans, but those in charge have chosen to theme the music in that way. There may be more to the reason than that. Perhaps it's just he director's favorite music. It doesn't really fit the setting or characters of the movie all that well, but I suspect the movie will be cool as it is, and it's hardly the end of the world if their musical genre choice comes across as a bit strange. I've loved the character since Earth's Mightiest Heroes and really look forward to seeing him in his own movie.
That is how marketing people think.
But also, everybody I know who is black seemed really pumped about the fact that there is a mainstream superhero movie with a primarily black cast, black director, and this soundtrack. Did you know score's composer "traveled to Senegal and South Africa to record local musicians to form the "base" of his soundtrack"? Also, the director chose Kendrick Lamar personally, because he feels that his "artistic themes align with those we explore in the film."
So yeah, the hip hop is there because he's black, and that's awesome. Kendrick Lamar? SZA? I don't know who else is on the soundtrack, but so far sounds pretty hype to me.
Anyhow, Black Panther rules!
Anyone remember any complaining when they chose Led Zeppelin to be on the soundtrack for a movie about Norse Gods?
<_<
I was wondering if the actual film was likely to feature the rap/hip hop sounding music, or just the trailers, so that's neat.
In the case of him being black, well, he's the King of an African nation, so it's kinda hard to do Black Panther without leaning into that angle. It's just hard coded into the character. As I've noticed in some series (such as Avengers stories such as Busiek's run) if you downplay all the African-centric stuff (as will likely happen in an ensemble cast team book setting) he basically gets whittled down to a Batman clone (as does Moon Knight if you leave out the stuff that makes Moon Knight unique). Physical brawler, athletic, gadgets, money, trust issues with other super heroes, lot of skulking about.
QuoteAnyone remember any complaining when they chose Led Zeppelin to be on the soundtrack for a movie about Norse Gods?
I'm assuming you're talking about Thor III which, as Benton pointed out, is NOT the best go-to example of properly representing its source material of origin.
Also, I hate to be that guy, but so now we're not allowed to complain about or criticize things in the trailer? I recall seeing an entire thread awhile ago about someone's feelings on the Avengers Infinity War Trailer.
I wasnt questioning the movie or its protagonist,I was saying I find the choice of soundtrack odd.Lets leave it at that before this goes the way any movie discussion goes here.
Also,I think Falcon was the first black superhero.1969,IIRC.DC had Tyroc in 1976,I think,and not as many assume,John Stewart(1979). #themoreyouknow
Oops. I didn't mean to make it into an argument or anything.
I was just saying there's a very good and obvious reason for an American made movie about an African king to feature a soundtrack by contemporary American artists of primarily African decent.
I could see more complaint when, say, The Great Gatsby featured a hip hop soundtrack... though, I actually heard a lot of praise when that happened.
Anyway, we're all pals here. No problems.
Also, Black Panther was created in 1966, if we are wondering. July/August, FF#53/53.
Mandrake's sidekick Lothar kind of counts as a superhero, and he first appeared in 1934. 1947 saw Lion Man who came from a comic which actually featured an all black creative staff. Pretty progressive stuff! Just one issue though. (I just learned about that one from Google!)
Okay,Captain Marvel costume...not a fan.Green and leather dont really mix.
For the most part I like what they're going for. I'm a fan of the original green Captain Marvel suit-- it looks really different and alien. That said, if I were a reporter in the MCU, I'd strongly believe that the same person made the suits for both Ant-Man and Captain Marvel.
Quote from: HarryTrotter on January 26, 2018, 10:46:40 PM
Okay,Captain Marvel costume...not a fan.Green and leather dont really mix.
Funny that I've not seen many folks complain about Oliver's leather green costume on Arrow. Course we usually don't see too many costume shots of him taken by unofficial photographers and without the digital enhancements done in the final edit. Course, That's just me. It's meant to look alien and green has always been the uniform color of the Kree military.
- CQ
You do realise he is GREEN Arrow?But thats not really related to anything here.
Which is like saying Iron Man and Superman wear red.
Anyway,why is it whenever I make an observation Im greated with animosity worthy of a comic journalist?
I'm not crazy about this either. It looks okay, and if they're going for something approximating the original Captain's kree uniform, that could be sort of cool. Nonetheless, replacing the white with more gray in that costume makes it look much less interesting. In the end, I just find myself hoping that this is not her main costume. Captain Marvel, original and Carol version, has one of the near-perfect costumes. The relatively modern Carol Captain has a fantastic look, and it would be a huge waste not to use it.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/digitaltrends-uploads-prod/2015/03/captain-marvel.jpg
I'm also not crazy about the casting. She's a decent actress from what little I've seen of her (Kong), but she isn't quite the type I would have chosen. She doesn't really seem to have the right kind of presence. I am, however, willing to be convinced, of course.
Also, on the topic of green leather, it is fair to say that the context for a street vigilante and an interstellar hero is rather different and expectations of costume design can be different as well.
Actually,it was YOU who brought up Green Arrow,I didnt comment on his costume in this thread.So I dont really see why your acting like I kicked your dog.
Well,after having my own opinion mansplained back to me,I have to admit defeat.
Its an awesome costume,you win.
Let's play nicely, folks.
I saw a color corrected pic someplace, but I was wondering... if the green might be something they could use with the Chroma Key (or whatever) process, and computer-correct the thing after filming.
That seems a lot of trouble to go to...
If you are wondering if they'd remove the green to give it a "space" pattern, doubtful. Chroma green is much brighter, and generally when they want to recreate a part of a character they will use motion tracking jimmies, then make a 3d model, then overlay that.
It's probably just green, guys.
Colour Corrected:
https://movieweb.com/captain-marvel-movie-costume-classic-colors-fan-art/
That looks so much better, it's hard to believe.
I agree. The red and blue version does look nice. A lot of people think she'll switch colors during the movie anyway. We shall see.
Well, Mar-Vell (Ever wonder if that is a Kryptonian name?) started off in a white and green costume, so maybe they are using that as a precedent.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 28, 2018, 04:26:16 AM
I agree. The red and blue version does look nice. A lot of people think she'll switch colors during the movie anyway. We shall see.
That's what I've been hoping for, and that's more or less what my first thought was when I saw it, given it's similarity to the original Cap's original costume.
That's very likely. It's not unusual for Marvel to include the original suit design in the origin story before switching to the more mainstream costume (Iron Man, Captain America, Dr. Strange).
Why couldn't they give her her old costume from 1977??? I say this sarcastically :D
Okay, Black Panther's coming out next week and we've been getting more and more tidbits about the movie over the last few months. I just saw something that gave extended clip and dialogue that provided a pretty key plot point of the movie that I don't think has been done before. Alas, I'm not the biggest BP fan and don't know if this is something that's been done in the comics.... with
him.
Spoiler
I'm sure those who've been watching the trailers and clips have noticed that both Killmonger and T'Challa will have similar suits, seemingly of some sort of nano-technology. Whatever it is, I watched the scene we've seen in trailers and Lexus' commercials at night with the Black Panther (seemingly) chasing Klaue. Well after he changed into his suit(literally on the fly) and jumped on the roof of the car, Shuri noted that he's taking fire and charging is suit up with kenetic energy from being struck repeatedly by bullets. Now, I figured that his suit was some type of vibranium mesh, which, like Captain America's shield, absorbs kenetic energy and disperses it which allows it to protect him from harm. But the way she specifically described it, and visibly looking at the suit react(turn purple) when being struck with bullets, I got the idea that this suit is something new and different giving Black Panther Kenetic energy absorption and more specifically energy projection powers. Maybe not translated by a beam, but projection in regards of added strength or ability. Much like Sebastian Shaw(and to a lesser extent DC/Dakotaverse's Rocket(ie the girl in my pic over yonder)).
Is this new to Black Panther or something they've done in the comics before?
Spoiler
According to wikipedia he does have that ability, but only with magic. He can absorb magic and gain strength from it. It's apparently a more recent thing.
So I just saw the movie today. I definitely recommend it! Here are my spoiler free thoughts, but in a spoiler box (then inside another spoiler box will be my spoilers, too).
Spoiler
So it's a bit different from a normal Marvel movie, a lot more self-contained, and not as humorous. The motives of the villain made a lot of sense, and it wasn't about giant blue lasers from space, so that was good.Stan Lee has a great cameo, but that's to be expected. Now for some spoilers:
Spoiler
Killmonger was such a great villain, and it really made sense why he wanted to take out Black Panther.
I love their technology. it is a bit different from normal technology, it's cool how it's kind of nanotechnology, but also magnetic with iron filaments...kinda. I guess vibranium reacts differently with sound and magnetic fields.
using those invisible fields the Wakandan tech does a lot of interesting stuff.
At first I wasn't sure I'd like Shuri, her humor seemed a bit forced in the beginning, but by the end I thought she was really well-cast and a great fit for the movie.
I'm always happy to see Korea in a mainstream movie, too. so that was a nice bonus!
Post Credit spoiler!
Spoiler
Bucky seems to be well on the path to rehabilitation!
In the comic (at least things I read),he has Batman-esque kevlar costume.And in the realm of fiction kevlar=magical force field.So there is that. :)
This will trigger some people but I cant help but notice...there is a lot of hype about Black Panther being the FIRST movie about a black superhero.Did Marvel forgot they mad 3 Blade movies,almost 20 years ago?
Only one was good,but thats neither here nor there.
I have heard that pointed out elsewhere, actually. I wonder if it's supposed to be the first African superhero as opposed to African American. Even if you ignored Blade, there's also Catwoman (since it starred Halle Berry), Spawn (since Al Simmons was a black man before he became Spawn) and some other more obscure films such as Meteor Man and Blank Man (though both of those were comedies).
In any case, did you mean Blade 1 or Blade 2?
Or the fact that Comet Man and Steel happened before then...
Or that Shaft (perhaps the first black "superhero" on screen) came even beforehand...
Quote from: Deaths Jester on February 17, 2018, 12:48:24 AM
Or the fact that Comet Man and Steel happened before then...
Or that Shaft (perhaps the first black "superhero" on screen) came even beforehand...
I think we're *all* trying to forget that Steel happened..... :ooh
The other was Meteor Man...not Comet Man, my mistake.
My thoughts:
First of all, three of the four of my most favorite things are social politics, boxing and comics and that's pretty much Ryan Coogler's entire film resume. Now to be perfectly honest, I was pretty underwhelmed by his first few movies. Fruitvale Station was okay, but it just seem really weirdly cut. Creed was extra long and all over the place and I really wish it just did what Rocky did and "paint-by-the-numbers" but it didn't. So I didn't have high expectations for him directing BP. And as I suspected, I had some of the same problems here too. Although I enjoyed every minute, it was still pretty long. Some parts seemed a little too convenient.
That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the movie. Killmonger was a great villain. So was Klaue. The Dora Milaje were awesome. Shuri was ridiculously adorable! And T'Challa of course was cast well and done right. Visually, the movie was stunning. The underlying message was pretty meaningful and I really dug it. And from my side of the fence, you can see where his motivations are. There are some plotholes that bug me, and like I said, there are parts that I definitely would have trimmed, but definitely worth to watch, whether your a fan of the genre or not, it holds up and is entertaining.
Now some of the spoiler stuff:
Spoiler
Overall I think I counted about three references to other Marvel properties. One, the main one is T'Chaka's death, which they also included in flashbacks. The next two were slightly related, Shuri's comment about "another broken white guy" where she was referencing Bucky who appeared at the end(I was wondering why he didn't show up at the end fight). I say all that to say I think they particularly wanted to not use any connection or strong connections to the MCU so it could be understood in its own context and it's fine for that. I, of course, would have appreciated a few more connections to the full universe. An Infinity Gem or N'Jobu planning to rob Pym Industries at the beginning or at least a cameo from an Avenger. But it's what it is. Now, I kinda expect it in the sequel. Also think they did a pretty good job explaining things. History of Wakanda. The different tribes. Backstory with N'Jobu and T'Chaka. Good job explaining Black Panther's powers, which they completely didn't do in Civil War. The ending fight with T'Challa/Killmonger I wish could have been done more naturally and less CGI. Two guys wearing black in a dark underground place fully animated made it hard to track. But it did go off better than I expected.
As far as the plot hole goes and it's really starting to bother me but... Why is Killmonger dead? I mean, he drunk from the heart-shaped herb that T'Challa did. T'Challa's life-threatening wounds healed. Why didn't Killmonger's?
Moreover, I do have to say, like with most of Marvel's movies there's comes the "evil-twin" version of villains that they keep going with. Killmonger was just a evil Black Panther. Loki/Thor Captain America/Red Skull/Winter Soldier, Hulk/Abomination, Iron Man/Iron Monger. Although, the story here is fairly "age-old" and a little "Lion King"-ish. Not that this is a bad thing, it's a storyline you can't hardly go wrong with. At least Killmonger was compelling as a villain. The whole dynamic of keeping Wakanda closed vs opening up to the world vs using it against the world was a pretty interesting take.
Again, it was an overall enjoyable film. Really hope people don't elect to skip out on this one for whatever reason... particularly since... it's
reasonable to want to watch this movie. As a fan or not.
So some of the numbers are in. Sounds like it's now the 6th best movie for the opening 3 days of all time, and best pre-summer blockbuster period. It's currently above Civil War and for four days will pass Age of Ultron. To say it's a major success is putting it mildly. It looks like some of the reviews put it as the second best of the Marvel films after Winter Soldier, although of course every individual will have very different opinions regarding that.
Still the people behind this film all deserve a huge congratulations.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on February 17, 2018, 06:19:13 AM
Spoiler
As far as the plot hole goes and it's really starting to bother me but... Why is Killmonger dead? I mean, he drunk from the heart-shaped herb that T'Challa did. T'Challa's life-threatening wounds healed. Why didn't Killmonger's?
Spoiler
Before they have their Challenge for King they must take the heart-shaped herb to remove their powers so it's a balanced fair fight. Course T'Challa's sister took the last remaining herb from the garden before Killmonger burned it all. T'Challa's mom used that last herb to restore his Black Panther abilities but because of Killmonger's hunger to keep what had there was no more herbs left to heal being gutted during the final battle. The herb gives strength, endurance, speed, agility, and a connection to the elder Black Panthers but it's not like Wolverine's super regeneration power which is on all the time.. It just kickstarts that body's own healing ability for a short period. T'Challa was just badly scratched up, bruised as heck, and knocked out before he was thrown over the cliff and then nearly frozen when he was found. I'm sure there are seeds to grow more herbs to replenish the garden but they would take awhile to grow and Killmonger refused to allow the family he hated to show pity on him to restore him using Wakandan technology.
No real spoilers, but just in case
Spoiler
The movie was amazing. I'm no film buff but the actors probably gave the best performances of any superhero movie ever made. Which is good, because it let everyone fit with Michael B Jordan being one of the best actors of all time in the best "villain" role of all time.
I know this isn't the music forum, but the Kendrick and pals soundtrack is so phenomenal. If you're into going hard af hip hop, you must listen. If not, it might get you into it. I have been playing it non-stop.
Man, what a great time to be alive.
I saw Black Panther yesterday, and it's definitely in my top 5 of MCU movies. But, I have two issues:
Spoiler
Didn't like that they turned his sister into T'Challa's version of James Bond's Q, and possibly made her smarter than Tony Smark.
And can they please stop doing movies where the hero takes on their evil equivalent? We already had that with Captain America (twice, with Red Skull and with Winter Soldier), Iron Man, Ant-Man, and the Hulk.
We saw this on opening day and really enjoyed it. I'd say it's a top Marvel film for me. And, while not a laugh-a-minute kind of movie, I thought it had plenty of light moments that left me grinning.
I agree with others that it was long. But, for me, at least, it never really dragged.
Slight spoiler:
Spoiler
The end of the movie, where the decision is made to open up Wakanda substantially and make much of its vibranium-based advanced technology available to the world, was... interesting. For sure, many aspects of the tech are flat-out world-changing. Imagine being able to heal grievous injuries (physical and psychological), or the implications for the energy economy and transportation industry of their rail system and flying vehicles. And, I can see why one would feel morally obligated to spread the benefits of such tech around.
But, with all of that comes the cost. There is no way not to have new weapons flooding the world market. The idea that the use of the technology for such purposes could be effectively controlled or regulated is easily as much a fantasy as Thor's unliftable hammer. I am not saying that they shouldn't have opened up to the world. In fact, the idea that such a high-tech enclave exists at all and only Wakandans know about it is a stretch. But, it does make me wonder how realistic Marvel plans to be in its treatment the overall impact of that kind of technology.
Stumpy, regarding your point...
Spoiler
i think the soul gem is what gives vibranium its power, so when Thanos comes in Infinity War, something will happen to subdue to world-breaking properties of the magical metal.
More time has been devoted to discussing politics of the movie then the movie (kudos to everyone who worked in sh*tholegate into their reviews) and I have to say,its obvious that the politics came before entertaiment on the priority list.And everyone found something to prop up their own narratives.Kinda like with Hunger Games,I guess.
All in all,its a decent enough movie,but not the greatest superhero movie or a landmark achivment it was hyped up to be.
Quote from: HarryTrotter on February 23, 2018, 07:56:33 PM
More time has been devoted to discussing politics of the movie then the movie (kudos to everyone who worked in sh*tholegate into their reviews) and I have to say,its obvious that the politics came before entertaiment on the priority list.And everyone found something to prop up their own narratives.Kinda like with Hunger Games,I guess.
All in all,its a decent enough movie,but not the greatest superhero movie or a landmark achivment it was hyped up to be.
sh*tholegate... gotcha. I see where you're going...
But I think a lot of the politics were unavoidable, particular from a certain point of view. Not much contemporary, but the big debate in many of my FB groups is the opposing schools of thought between T'Challa and Killmonger had with black folks and ethnic Africans, taking on a similar theme that Magneto and Professor X have with mutants. It's a sensible political argument. Nothing obtrusive, but completely story driven. But there were a number of narratives that could be played upon. One of which is it's cultural significance. I think this movie had an deeper meaning to some just as Wonder Woman did last year. While each movie were completely entertaining, it was important to see the portrayals that we did. Not just important for those who were represented, but important for those who don't see or think of seeing these roles filled.
Im not going anywhere,New York Times actually worked in that in their review.Im not kidding.
Yeah,about Killmonger,hes not really Magneto,hes more...Hitler.
There's also a T-shirt being sold somewhere with a slogan on the front referencing that. I would assume, not an official Marvel product.
Now as for the movie itself, I'd been meaning to say this:
QuoteFirst of all, three of the four of my most favorite things are social politics, boxing and comics and that's pretty much Ryan Coogler's entire film resume. Now to be perfectly honest, I was pretty underwhelmed by his first few movies. Fruitvale Station was okay, but it just seem really weirdly cut. Creed was extra long and all over the place and I really wish it just did what Rocky did and "paint-by-the-numbers" but it didn't. So I didn't have high expectations for him directing BP. And as I suspected, I had some of the same problems here too. Although I enjoyed every minute, it was still pretty long. Some parts seemed a little too convenient.
I actually didn't even know he worked on all three of those movies. I guess I didn't really look into who made Creed or Black Panther (though it fits that they all have Micheal B. Jordan). I myself really enjoyed Creed so it's entirely possible I'll like this more than you did. I can't say for sure until I watch the flick.
In somewhat related news, pet shelters are starting to report that instead of being picked last as normal, black cats are actually being picked first(and named after characters from the movies) and cat adoptions in general are up since the movie came out. This was not something that anyone was expecting, but considering that it normally very difficult to get someone to adopt a black cat, it's been seen a good thing. As you may notice from my avatar, I am very much in favor of dark furred felines.
Yay!
~SS, Cat Lover
Quote from: detourne_me on February 22, 2018, 11:23:36 AM
Stumpy, regarding your point...
Spoiler
i think the soul gem is what gives vibranium its power, so when Thanos comes in Infinity War, something will happen to subdue to world-breaking properties of the magical metal.
Spoiler
I do have a feeling the stone is there and I agree...Thanos taking it, will probably depower the Vibrainum to a degree (I don't think it will completely depower the miracle metal, though).
BTW, my sister took me to see BP and I loved it...One of the best Marvel movies made, IMHO.
Dana
BTW, there's a pretty
MAJOR rumor that has started going around and with the rumors we've been hearing preceding it, it could be pretty meaning for for Avengers: Infinity War and even for ALL of Phase 4 of the Marvel Cinematic Universe thereafter.
Again, this is a major spoiler so be warned about continued reading....
Spoiler
Okay, you've been warned. But keep in mind Phase 4 will be kicked off with Captain Marvel and also keep in mind Sylvester Stallone and Ving Rhymes' cameo in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 was probably no accident... Last chance...
Spoiler
Well, there have been rumors where the MCU will take Phase 4, and rumor has it that they're looking to unload many of their higher priced contracts. So it's likely they'll not want stars like Gwyneth Paltrow, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, Jeremy Renner and perhaps Robert Downy Jr. to be brought back. So word has it that they'll want to shift to, what Disney CEO, Bob Iger described as "worlds that are completely separate, geographically or in time", which would suggest cosmic-oriented characters and storylines. Additionally, it's been long rumored that Peter Dinklage has a role in Infinity War. He's listed on several sites and even Wikipedia has him listed but no role next to his name. It's been speculated that he's playing Pip the Troll, MODOK or Uatu, the Watcher. Lately it's been thought he's playing a dwarf that helps Thor forge Stormbreaker. But if he's playing any of those characters, why wouldn't it be listed? They've listed other newer characters? Anyway, it has been confirmed with the latest trailer and movie poster released that he is INDEED part of the cast, but again, no role has been confirmed. Probably because he's playing a character that will spoil the untitled Avengers 4 movie...
Because today(yesterday), Metacritic has put out a link to the Infinity War cast... If you look about midway down the second listing for the cast, there's an actor who has very few film credits and has been in no MCU movies named Curt Clendenin... http://www.metacritic.com/movie/avengers-infinity-war/details And the character they have listed?
(One more time...)
Spoiler
The Silver Surfer!
Now, the reason I went through all that above is to illustrate that while Curt Clendenin has no real film credits to his name, it's very possible he could be doing the motion capturing of the character. And another actor who does have billing on the actual poster, who does have a pretty distinctive voice and does not have a role attached to his name could be the voice for the Silver Surfer, which would be Peter Dinklage.
But to take a step further, the fact that Marvel is not only being tight-lipped about Peter Dinklage's role and whether or not the Silver Surfer is indeed featured in the movie, as well as the title of the 3rd Avengers' sequel, it's very possible that the rumors of using cosmic characters could be fully realized in Avengers 4... where(and this is my theory) Thanos will be stopped by the combined efforts of the Avengers and the Silver Surfer who has found Earth for Galactus, who will be the featured villain for Avengers 4: Coming of Galactus... Return of Galactus... Age of Galactus... the Galactus Imperative. Whatever. Something with Galactus in the title, which would spoil the entire story.
Of course this all hinges on one minor detail... the Fox/Disney deal. And whether it has been finalized timely enough for the characters to be included. However, Fox could have had a similar deal Sony had for Spider-Man. Besides, it was reported a while back that Marvel did lend the Hellfire Club and Legion to Fox and perhaps there's a quid pro quo. But as far as I can tell, it's all adding up. It could be THE reason why we haven't received the Avengers 4 title yet, nor why Dinklage's role hasn't been revealed and explain the original Guardians of the Galaxy's cameo and make sense of Iger's "separate worlds" comment.
Again, keep in mind that last part is a lot of my own theory based on what could VERY POSSIBLY be a mistake or some sort of uninformed writer from Metacritic. But if Metacritic did unveil something they shouldn't have and this is indeed true, they've might have given a tell for what's to come for Phase 4. But I dunno. I've looked online for someone to have put 2 and 2 together like I have and no one has, so I could be really, really wrong... or really, really right. We'll see.
I did hear that rumor, which would be pretty wild if it were true.
Spoiler
If so, hopefully the actor in question will do a better job than the last time they were tasked with a character from that particular genre setting... :cool: Personally I still Dinklage would have been best suited playing Pip the Troll, because 1. if not, what was that red dyed hair for? and 2. Come on, who else is gonna play Pip? He's a little person, he's got the messy hair, and he's got the silver tongue necessary to play the character. And yeah, they could just CGI Pip. Speaking of which...
There's also a speculation that he's doing the voice of Black Order member Dwarf Star, since the actors for the other members are apparently already confirmed, which....yeah, I could belief that, but I also think it would be a waste of his talents, (then again, so was his role in Destiny, but the video game industry likes being able to tout Hollywood talent as a feature in their games) Plus, Malekith wasn't a good use of Christopher Eccelston's charisma either.
Yeah, there's that... But if that were the case, why wouldn't they just say?
Spoiler
Again, they've listed other members of the Black Order in the cast. And yeah, I suppose newer characters like Pip or MODOK or Dwarf Star would be spoiler-ish as for characters that haven't previously been in an MCU film, which is true. But just my opinion, I doubt it's spoiler enough for them to specifically go out their way to NOT include it in the credits UNLESS it's going to spoil the plot of the movie(and in my opinion, A4). Pip the Troll wouldn't spoil the movie so I'd think they'd be comfortable with listing that with 5 weeks to go. But if he is indeed who I think he is, THAT would be something they'd want to keep under wraps.
But like I said, BECAUSE they flat out refuse to confirm it(maybe for good reason) it all could be speculation and a glaring mistake. But at the same time, they're not denying it either.
Also it should also be mentioned that back in Civil War, Spider-Man was not only left out of the first trailer he was erased out of much of where he would have been in the actual movie in both trailers. Until the very end. Marvel kept his inclusion equally tight-lipped. Of course he didn't change the direction of the movie or the MCU at all, but it does show a history of them being covert with certain characters.
Did Marvel officially announced the cameos such as the ones in Guardians of the Galaxy 2? Because if not, Pip could just be a post-credits gag or something. Marvel, in my experience, likes to keep the post-credit scene cameos a surprise even when they're just for a gag.
Regarding this Dinklage speculation and the thematic tie to why Spidey wasn't in the early Civil War trailers... It's been noted on several fan sites that Marvel often does a pretty good job of keeping big movie reveals under wraps until release, particularly in comparison to DC. (I mean, sure, we all knew that Superman was coming back. But, at least have enough respect for suspense to not just show a nominally dead character as alive in the bleeping trailer!) Presumably, that's what happened with Spidey in CW and maybe that's the reason for the silence about Dinklage's role.
Deadpool 2 is basicly Terminator (2).Which isnt so bad.
Cable seems spot on,everyone else...not so much.
In other news, Black Panther just beat Avengers as the highest grossing superhero film of all time!
http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/140489-sony-dumps-new-venom-trailer-after-leak.html (http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/140489-sony-dumps-new-venom-trailer-after-leak.html)
Here is the Venom trailer.With bery little Venom in it.
I mean, I feel like the placement on this one was deliberate, and it's not like the last teaser where there was NOTHING Venom related in the Venom trailer.
That said, PLEASE tell me the pronunciation of "sym-bye-oat" is just the british version or something... because it would be assenine if they truly did fruit up pronouncing "symbiote" in the GD Venom movie.
Posted without comment:
http://textsfromsuperheroes.com/post/173308521566/symbiote
Also, what the heck is up with Hardy's Jerry Lewis-esq delivery of his lines? Who thought that was a good idea?
So I will give credit where it's due: the cgi for Venom looks good. It's got a nice, shiny, wet look that a certain... Other version did not. It looks like venom. Even the awkward bits (that bike scene is... Eh) are more coreography based then with the symbiote itself.
I'm sorry, but I STILL remember an early sm3 trailer which had Tobey awkwardly tearing off the rubber black suit... And it NEVER looked right to me. So it's worth noting that this model looks so much better. I just hope Hardy let's them USE it.
Still, the story side has me a bit nervous... The setup in the trailer feels like it could work with the villains being the third tier symbiotes from separation anxiety (Scream being mainstream would be cool) but I know the studio would REALLY be pushing for Carnage... And I just don't seem him fitting this film unless some nonsense happens. Like, the CEO becomes Carnage... Disregarding the fact that he'd be Carnage in name (and appearance) only.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly Carnage's biggest fan (eff everything to do with red goblin. It's so dumb) but if you're gonna play that card, it better be full on mass murdering Cletus Cassidy Carnage. Otherwise, save it for another film. You've got enough going on.
Okay, turning to page to Infinity War, which I saw last night... First the non-spoiler thoughts:
Wasn't quite what I was expecting. It was fun to see ALL these characters come together. They weaved the storylines together as seemlessly as they did with the original Avengers blending the newer franchises(Black Panther, GOTG, Spider-Man) in. The action scenes, I was originally told was fully of shaky cam CGI and I disagree. They were fast-paced and a lot going on, but you can tell they stepped it up a level. Naturally the movie had such an epic scale I jokingly told my friend they can't release this movie on DVD because it should only be seen on a big screen.
But unfortunately, the parts that drug it for me was some of the slower parts. I don't know if it was because it was late, but it was painfully slow in spots and the main thing that bugged me was the ending.... that ending thou...
Spoiler
Half the Marvel Universe is dead. Yeah. Agents of SHIELD, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Ant-Man(which is coming out in a few months) meh. It's like they set a stage for them to have to deal with or not care that those other properties have to deal with. As if this is really the end though. The cliffhanger is a bit anti-climatic when there's no secret that there will be a Guardians of the Galaxy 3, Spider-Man 2, Black Panther 2. So all the characters we saw "die", half of them are literally contracted to come back.
So when Avengers 4 comes out, there's little doubt that someone will ultimately wrestle the Gauntlet from Thanos(my money's on Stark or Marvel(actually I think she's a safer bet)) and undo everything he did. But that's the thing that bugged me. When we were first introduced to Infinity War, we were told there were two parts to it. But then we were specifically told that they aren't doing that, and Infinity War would be it's own movie. I even thought I read that Thanos wouldn't necessarily be the villain in the next Avengers movie, which is why they split the two film. But after this, I'm curious why go through the effort? When it's a tad obvious the next Avengers WILL be wrapping up the storyline from Avengers 3, virtually one 5 hour movie.
But more than that, as a movie, I didn't get what I was looking for. I get having cliffhangers. I get having a "to be continued..." but even still there's SOME sort of resolution typically. Some victory of some sort or closure to THAT particular story. There wasn't that here. Thanos' goal was to get all the Infinity Stones and he got them. The end. Don't want to sound old fashion but... it just wasn't as fulfilling as I'd hoped.
Take it for what you will. Just my thoughts.
...one name concerning who "may" take the gauntlet: Adam Warlock...just tossing out that potential...
Just saw Infinity War with a bunch of friends this afternoon. We all loved it. Such a great cast that all hadd amazing chemistry together. Especially between the Chris's.
I laughed so often, and will probably be quoting from the movie for a long time to come.
Also something really unusual happened to us. Since we live in Korea, usually foreigners like me will laugh at references or sayings before Koreans get it(if they understand the humor at all) but in this movie there were a few instances where they were reading the subtitles faster than the actor saying the lines, and we couldnt even hear the line because the audience was laughing so hard. Im not even mad about it, actually pretty happy that so many people enjoyed the movie.
It's sounding pretty great! We're going to see it tomorrow, and I'm quite excited! I may have to play some Marvel Adventures tonight to celebrate.
Holy COW! What an AMAZING movie! 10/10 for me!
SPOILERS
Spoiler
I am SO happy that they had Thanos win in the end! It was all that I was hoping for and they did it! Sure, it will be reversed in a future movie, but for now, I am very happy with it. Thanos was stellar in the movie! I love how they handled him, in every regard. His power, his mental strength, his character, everything! I am so happy that he didn't turn into another one-note, forget-me-in-a-minute Marvel villain.
Spyder,
Spoiler
I agree completely! Thanos wasn't really inherently evil. my friends afterwards were saying how he could even be right. Apparently Gamora's homeworld is thriving now, where Titan is a desolate wasteland because they didn't listen to Thanos' ideas. And, since it is randomly chosen who lives and who dies, it is probably as fair as possible for everyone involved in dying/surviving.
So I saw it, really enjoyed it. Not much to say other than it's a lot of fun, all the different personalities playing off each other was very entertaining, Thanos was really damn good,. James Gunn oversaw the Guardians scenes and it shows because the humor is on point. Mantis is still adorable, she and Drax are still adorable together, and Batista still has great comedic chops as Drax. And I have issues with the ending. I'm kinda with agreement with Shogunn about it. More in the spoilers:
Spoiler
Highlights:
-Tony's conversation with Pepper about having a baby seemed to be based on a cut line from Civil War. At one point in the script Tony was going to say he and Pepper aren't talking because he missed a Lamaze class. Now, Tony being Tony, he may have been joking, but it made people wonder if Pepper was pregnant. That little bit of dialogue in this movie seemed to poking fun at and/or clarifying for fans (I'm not sure/don't remember what the Civil War/Homecoming/IW timeline would be so no idea if Pepper would have been showing) In any case, I appreciated it.
-I really enjoyed seeing Wanda and Vision as a couple. So great to see those characters develop over so few movies and I like them more with each appearance.
-Red Skull Cameo! I was chomping at the bit wondering who the guy in the robes was, thinking in the back of my head "he kinda sounds like Hugo Weaving" without drawing the connection, and then it closed in on his face I literally gasped. So cool! Though Hugo Weaving didn't actually do the voice, too bad.
-[EDIT] Oh dang! I forgot about Peter Dinklage! We finally get to see who he's playing...and it's....some dwarven blacksmith who I've never heard of. So we have a dwarf....playing a dwarf....and he's actually huge! And all joking aside, The Dink was awesome in it. He was all shouty and scowly, and definitely was not phoning it in Destiny Style. Though the movie did in fact feature a wizard on the moon....see because Titan is the moon of Saturn.
-They rehashed the Spider-Man "old movie" joke like 4 or 5 times. Don't get me wrong, I thought they were funny, including a particularly inspired one involving Mantis, but upon reflection, I've never known Spidey to tell the same joke twice (I've heard it said that outside of Under the Red Hood, neither does the Joker. Food for thought).
-I should have known Thor would get a replacement cyborg eye from the Guardians just so Hensworth wouldn't have to wear that eyepatch, though the accompanying joke? So, SO gross.
-Rocket wants to steal Bucky's metal arm. That is awesome. Somebody needs to buy whoever came up with that gag (I'd wager James Gunn) a cold one.
-So, um, did Korg, Miek and the others on board the Grandmaster's ship die off screen in the opening minutes of the movie? Because while I didn't really care for this version of Korg and Miek, I'd at least like to know if they died.
-I'm just going to say it: I hate the ending. Hate hate hate hate hate. And tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow. Yes, I know it's a cliffhanger. Yes I know every last one of those characters will come back except maybe Heimdall, Loki, Gamora, Vision, Collector and whoever died on board the Grandmaster's ship, and whoever I forgot. And yes I know Avengers 4 is coming much sooner than usual.
Doesn't matter. I still don't like it. The first 98% of the movie was great. Lots of action, great banter and humor, surprisingly few cheap exploitative deaths. I was actually thinking while Thanos was throwing aside a bunch of characters "If Kyle and Yost wrote this, ALL of these guys would be dead.". And that last 2% or so of the movie had to go and sour the whole thing for me. We might not get to see ANY of those characters again until May next year, while in the meantime we're getting a filler installment (Ant-Man and the Wasp) and a movie-length flashback/origin film (Captain Marvel). And I loved Ant-Man. The trailer for the new one (which noone on here seemed to talk about) was great, much better than the original teaser trailer for Ant-Man 1. I'm a fan of Carol Danvers and I was looking forward to a Captain Marvel film. Now, like Shogunn, I'm soured on them. I'll still see Ant-Man and the Wasp, and I may very well see CM in theaters, but if neither of them have post-credits scenes hinting at Avengers 4, that means we have to wait through almost a whole year and 2 separate films to find out what happens next. Nevermind the various tv shows.
And if I can get real for a sec, real life can get damn depressing at times. Escapist fiction is supposed to give you a feel good experience where you leave the theater with a smile on your face, and a lot of us could probably use that these days. BT-dubs, it's also not supposed to make you nauseous, so knock it off with the shaky cam already, Russos!
When I saw Thanos walking off into his paradise I thought to myself "Don't you dare cut to the credits" and then it happened and I thought some variation of "Are you $%^&ing kidding me?!", a common utterance from viewers of the infamous Walking Dead S6 cliffhanger (I'ma bring that up again in a bit). But ok, of course I knew there was a post credits scene. 1 post credit scene; I knew in advance there was only 1, even though most MCU films have at least 2. So I waited patiently, along with many other, upset viewers, many of them children, waiting for hope. "Ok" I thought. "One post credits-scene. This better be the best damn post credits scene ever (for the record, the best post-credit scene, is of course, the Cap PSA post credit scene). We've heard rumblings of Silver Surfer, but no, it's gotta be better than that. We need to see the characters Thanos killed alive, or in Battleworld, or some brief glimpse of where the story's going to go next. It's gotta be time travelling Young Avengers. We know an older Cassie Lang is appearing in Avengers 4, and Tony and Pepper were talking about a kid, that could be Iron lad in this version. It's gotta be something good. "
It was Nick Fury, saying MFer, (HA HA, never heard that joke before), Maria Hill, and Captain Marvel's logo, which a good chunk of the audience won't even recognize.
At that point my head rolled back and I mouthed out "OH COME ON!". Captain Marvel? Are you cereal? We already knew Captain Marvel was coming. It's not even the next movie in sequence, that's Ant-Man and the Wasp! And like I said, Captain Marvel is a bloody prequel! And I expect Ant-Man and the Wasp WILL take place prior to the end of AIW. They're not going to put THIS in the margins of a feel-good Paul Rudd action comedy. The post credit scene will probably be one or more of the Ant-Man characters being wiped out.
I really hope we're getting an Avengers 4 trailer this upcoming week, or sometime in the next few months, because this is absurd.
But ok, I'll play: it's a cliffhanger. Cliffhangers are old hat, comics are full of them. Hell, Avengers No Surrender pulled this kind of cliffhanger no less than five times. You know what the difference is? Other than a better version of Quicksilver? No Surrender came out every single week. The infamous Walking Dead cliffhanger (which, for the record, I very much enjoyed, though I don't think they should have done it the way they did) only made you wait until October. And there was a trailer before that. Fear the Walking Dead is currently in the process of resolving a comparable cliffhanger. The infamous cliffhanger in One Piece (similar to this one) only made fans wait one chapter in the manga, and two measly filler episodes in the anime. And that had the good graces to tell you what happens next ahead of time and tease the upcoming storylines in the opening credits. The original Infinity Gauntlet? It came out every month, didn't it? And while the New Star Wars movies put out Rogue One and Solo between numbered installments, no Star Wars movie had a cliffhanger like this. Nor did Harry Potter or other similar YA adaptations, nor did Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit put out sidestories between installments. And when the Teen Titans cartoon and the really quite good Squadron Supreme arc of the Avengers Assemble cartoon did similar cliffhangers, they at least ended their respective episodes on triumphant notes by showing the heroes were already planning their counterattack (and no, I do not consider an emoji for a character we've never met before to be that)
Oh, and before I forget, where the bloody hell was Hawkeye? After all that hullabuloo about "Why isn't Hawkeye in the trailer?" and "There's a good reason Hawkeye's not in the trailer" and "don't worry guys, Hawkeye's in Avengers". He's not even in the damn movie! And the nonchalant explanation we get is even more insulting! He turned himself in and is in house arrest? Then why not just say ahead of time he's not in the movie? It's not a surprise, it's not a reveal, it's not a big moment, heck we already knew Scott was under house arrest from the Ant-Man trailer. And I'm sorry, I don't like seeing my heroes turn coward. I can understand Scott, but not Clint. Especially since it goes completely against Hawkeye's character arc in the last movie he was in, where he decided he needed to do something, even if it put his safe family life at risk. So, yeah, not cool, Clint. You shoulda just did Mission Impossible instead.
So yeah, soured. And a little triggered, if I'm honest. #ItsOktoHateTheEnding
Wow. Silver Shocker... that was a Mouth. Full. I think you about covered all your bases bruh. Lol. You said more than I did. More than I wanted but sheesh. Thanks for saying it and giving me cover.
Let me add some color:
Spoiler
Yes, were not the only ones who feel the way we do. I was trying to explain to a friend, it's like watching the Avengers and getting to the part where Loki kills Coulson and chucks Thor from the Helicarrrier and the credits roll after that. Of course I'm going to be like "What the fuzz? Where's the rest of the movie?" Don't get me wrong, I liked a lot of what I saw but if you're going to produce a movie some of us would appreciate a resolution. Like a beginning, middle and end. An end with a protagonist finding closure and I didn't get that.
Again, I get cliffhangers. A cliffhanger like revealing Thanos sent the Chitauri or the Winter Soldier is still alive. But even in those cases the Avengers stopped Loki and Captain America stopped Hydra's plot. There was closure. Even when you take it to other properties like with Star Wars, where many are comparing this to Empire Strikes Back. Yes, our heroes took Ls across the board but they got away. The whole movie was the Empire chasing them down and they got away. And even that can't be viewed in a vacuum. It's the 2nd part of a 3 part series, IE the 2nd act. This wasn't that. They specifically said this isn't Infinity War "Part 1", it's it's own separate story and there's no way I can judge this by itself. I feel there's more to the story. Actually I don't feel. Chadwick Bozeman, Chris Pratt and Tom Holland have sequels to make so I know they're not dead and thus I know the story's incomplete. Like what's the point of doing a pump fake when the defense know you're not going to throw it.
And BTW this too is a big part of it:
Spoiler
And if I can get real for a sec, real life can get damn depressing at times. Escapist fiction is supposed to give you a feel good experience where you leave the theater with a smile on your face, and a lot of us could probably use that these days.
THANK YOU.
I know it's small and may seem insignificant and inconsequential but we watch these for escapism and to take a break from real life that can be hell of depressing. Bad guys win in real life. Trust me I work in politics. I don't want that in fantasy. I'm taking a break from that for a reason. Not saying Thanos has to die in 2 hours, but still... just was looking for more.
Trust me there's a lot to like but I'm positive I'll like the whole thing more after Avengers 4.
On a somewhat related note,so far Captain Marvel promises to be the most generic thing ever.
Also,I saw several articles along the line of "trend for female lead superhero movies to be set in the past", which is pretty funny considering we only have Wonder Woman so far.Or at least in the past 10 or so years,before somebody corrects me.
HT, you've said many times you don't like origin stories in superhero movies and shows, and I normally don't have that problem, but with Captain Marvel I'm kinda weary of it. Add to that it's a period piece (taking place in the nineties. the 90's now classifies for a "period piece". Boy that makes me feel old) and the potential for tie-ins and cameos could be more limited. I think we've been spoiled by Spider-Man and Black Panther at this point. Though at least, unlike Spider-Man, noone knows who Captain Marvel is in the movie landscape so it's not like Spider-Man again, Batman again, Superman again.
Shogun:
Spoiler
Last night I was skimming Red Letter Media's review of the flick and Rich Evans had this to say about the Empire comparison. "Here's the thing about Empire: It's a bittersweet ending. Here it's not bittersweet because there's no sweet. It's just bitter. It's a downer ending. It's the most depressing summer blockbuster since The Lone Ranger, but for completely different reasons." One of the RLM crew also observed that Marvel has now done "dark and gritty better than DC".
Well guys, I loved it. Unabashedly, unreservedly, I loved it. For those that are interested, I'll post a review and some reflections. Spoilers afterwards in their box. Be warned, I have plenty to say.
Shogunn, SS, I've got a response to your points in my first spoiler-y section as well.
This is, simply put, fantastic in every sense of the word. Interestingly, the response seems to have been overwhelmingly positive from both critics and fans, but the few complaints I've seen tend to be posited on a rejection of the boisterous, imaginative nature of the Marvel Universe. I feel like the people who complain about the lack of weight for dire events in a story with 'magic jewels that can do anything' have let the world beat too much of the imagination out of them.
It's worth noting that this film is the culmination (or the first half it), of a decade of storytelling and adventure, and it is a worthy ending. Think about that for a moment. Marvel began this journey in 2008 with Iron Man, and since then the universe has grown, the characters have evolved, and it all built towards this moment. That is an incredible feat.
This is a film that takes advantage of all of the sprawling world that has been created, that draws on long established characters and relationships, on a familiarity and an affection that can only be created piece by piece, as they did. And that gives it a power that is unprecedented. We are seeing in film the same thing that makes American superheroes unique, the power of collective storytelling, the power of many stories feeding into and informing those that follow, a shared universe creating magnified narrative impact and allowing for a shorthand of expression. That by itself is pretty amazing, but as I said, this is a film that is worthy to wield such power.
Infinity War is huge and sprawling and truly epic. It is a film about loss and heroism and desperate hope, yet it is fun and endlessly exciting, even funny. I imagine everyone who has seen it has described it as 'an emotional rollercoaster,' but though cliched, that is certainly apt. There are a lot of highs and a lot of lows, but it all has weight.
The movie is beautiful, in terms of its wondrous settings and its special effects, which are jaw-dropping and accompany amazing action scenes, but also in terms of the story it tells, which is all about the central conflict of humanity, that of selfishness and the consuming will against love and sacrifice. It's beautifully archetypal, yet the villain has some real personality and pathos to him, being almost sympathetic, despite his monstrousness. Impressively, this film, with so much going on and so many characters vying for space, manages to overcome the Marvel two-dimensional villain weakness. Thanos is memorable and a worthy foe for the gathered heroes from the first moment he appears on screen.
Throughout, the film successfully feels grand in scope and in stakes, with action that spans the universe, a truly creation-shaking plot, and a MASSIVE cast of characters. Yet, and this is perhaps the most impressive piece of the movie's success to me, that humongous cast is incredibly well balanced. Obviously there are characters with more or less screentime, and many of these characters play fairly small roles, but nonetheless, no-one feels shortchanged (among main characters from the movies), with everyone getting at least small and touching moments, as well as big hero moments.
One of the things that I really loved about this movie is that it feels 'right' for the Avengers. It is by no means a direct translation of the comics, and yet it is like all of the Marvel films when they are at their best, taking the source material and elevating, transfiguring it into something else, something even grander and even richer and even more powerful than the original. It also finally feels like the Marvel Universe, with events happening and characters just showing up because they inhabit the same world. The Fantastic Four are really the only ones missing (because the X-Men have always sort of felt like their own thing), but who could notice with everything going on?
So, if you haven't seen it, go. Go while it is in theaters, because if ever a film deserved a big screen viewing, it is certainly this one.
Spoilers below:
First, to SS and Shogunn-
Spoiler
I completely understand your feelings on this, and I am sympathetic. I've said very similar things several times around here. Yet, I loved this film, even though the ending is pretty heartbreaking. Obviously, this is likely going to be undone in the next film, but it was still a beautifully sorrowful moment, full of other particularly poignant moments, and those are worthwhile. Spider-Man dying in Tony's arms, the surrogate son and father, Bucky fading away in front of Steve, and the Panther in front of Okoye: these are all particularly touching scenes of loss.
Obviously, the grimness of this ending flies in the face of one of the prime purposes of wondrous fiction. While I completely agree about the positive power of such tales, I think this case is a clear exception because it does not (and cannot) stand in isolation. We know there is more to come, that there is another chapter, and though I sympathize with your anxiety given the length of wait, I don't think that is necessarily a flaw of the film.
This is, as y'all noted, like the Empire Strikes Back. This is the dark before the dawn, even if that dark is to last a year, and it works very well. Yet, you're right; Empire ended with a surge back upwards, with Luke's escape and the hope of finding Han. I agree, this movie probably should have had something like that, and yes, the after-credits scene was the place to do it. Those are valid criticisms. Yet, the presence of the Infinity Gauntlet softens this tragedy while still allowing it to keep its sorrowful beauty. In Empire, Han is gone, Luke's hand is lost, and our young hero must live with those facts and with the knowledge he has gained at such terrible cost. We need that upswing because these events can only be addressed by going forward. That's not the case in this film. We may, quite literally, be able to go back in time. A hopeful final scene isn't necessarily needed because hope is inherent in the concept itself. There is hope, hope for all, because the mechanism to undue all of this loss still exists. The revelation of this hope is built into the same terrible moment where Thanos completes his quest.
But perhaps most important of all, remember what the Vision told Ultron: "A thing is not beautiful because it lasts."
Second, other thoughts in no particular order.
Spoiler
I'm genuinely intrigued by this ending and by Dr. Strange's enigmatic statements and his inexplicable choice. I have suspicions, and I am anxiously awaiting the chance to see if I'm right.
One of the most touching parts of the film was Scarlet Witch's agonizing decision to kill the Vision, and the fact that it fails renders it even more beautifully tragic. We got two moments like this, with Starlord's attempt to kill Gamora, with its failure and eventual consequences really just creating a surprisingly powerful pair of scenes.
On a brighter note, one of the real highlights of the film was seeing characters from different settings play off one another. I loved the interactions between the different heroes, especially Tony and Strange. They made a great pair, and Peter being along for the ride made it even better. The splitting up of the cast allowed for a really nicely diverse and well-balanced plot, while also allowing each group to shine.
I LOVED the heart that Captain America is still bringing to these films. His speech to the Vision and its reiteration back to him was one of my favorite beats of the movie. "We don't trade lives." That, right there, beautifully captures one of the competing ethoses of the two sides. The heroes, who value life and who are driven by love for one another, specifically, the mark of true heroism, self-sacrificial love, versus the man who desires all power for himself, however noble he may believe his goal, the man who would be a god. It's a great and archetypal conflict. This is what makes the Marvel movies work and what separates them from certain other superhero films.
A really nice surprise was Dr. Strange actually using his magic to more than just summon glowing whips and portals. We even got (unnamed but recognizable) versions of his actual go-to spells from the comics, which was great fun. Strange's showdown with Thanos is one of the high points of the movie, as is his team-up with Spider-Man. "Magic! More-Magic! Magic-with-a-kick!"
I am sort of amazed that they actually went all the way with Thanos's powers. In the comics, he successfully achieves his goal and reaches near omnipotence. I didn't think they would go that far considering how difficult a story that is to tell, but I'm thrilled that they did. I can't wait for the next chapter, and I can only begin to imagine what shape it could take. I was also delighted to see some of the whimsy and imagination of the comics' portrayals of his reality-warping, down to the bubble gun, slinky Mantis, and rock Drax. It was a perfect and yet silly way to display how absolute his power was. And it worked, which is its own kind of amazing.
I couldn't believe the Red Skull cameo! I've always wondered what became of him. It's a shame we're likely seeing the end of the original franchises, because I would LOVE to see him return to fight Cap in another movie.
The changes they made to Thanos's motivations were excellent and led to a much better realized character. The whole 'in love with Death' thing works okay in the comics, but it is a pretty weird idea, and it generally results in him just not being that interesting, I'd say. Darkseid, from whom he was copied, has a much better version of that, wanting to impose order on the cosmos and remake it in his own image, essentially a type of Lucifer. So, the switch works really well, but I would have liked to see his position strengthened JUST a bit, maybe a line by someone who says, 'yeah, the universe is heading for a crisis of resources in X period of time' or something, because the rational only really applies to certain worlds, and there is no real justification for making it universal. Yeah, he's a madman, but he's a madman they're trying to make somewhat sympathetic.
This was an excellent movie from top to bottom, and it really had only one real flaw, or rather, collection of flaws. That was was the Thor portion of the film, and that is largely the fault of a separate, inferior movie, Thor Ragnarok. First, pretty much the entire Asgardian cast is wiped out almost as casually as the rest had been in Ragnarok, which would be worse if this wasn't a film with so much loss anyway, but it is still noticeably weak in dramatic power. Loki's death has some weight, and Hiddleston's performance is particularly great. Yet, apparently everyone else died off panel, with the exception of Heimdal.
But the real problem was with Thor himself, because he was mostly absent from the film. Instead, we got the idiotically grinning, jokey buffoon of Ragnarok, who sort of looked like one of my favorite characters. His characterization remains off, but it improves over the course of the film, and by the time he's forging his hammer, Thor is mostly back on model. Still, it was discordant enough to make his scenes with the Guardians grate a bit for me. It's consistent with the previous film but with nothing else from the series, which is a problem in a movie that draws a lot of its power from that wider continuity. Also, while I loved the fantastic, cosmic, comic-y nature of the star forge, I also thought that Peter Dinklage's giant dwarf (haha, look, he's a dwarf, but he's big! I guess?) didn't quite work. It was one of the very few places where I felt like the special effects didn't do the trick. It felt like someone inhabiting a different space from the other characters, not realistically big and present.
I'm also really disappointed that Tony and Cap didn't get a moment before things went south. It would have taken narrative space that clearly wasn't to be spared, but I'm still sad and it is a noticeable absence.
Also, I've got to ask. How in the blue blazes did Iron Man survive having a moon dropped on him?
Finally, this is a very minor nitpick, but it's something that mildly annoyed me. Cap and Black Panther may be great warriors and incredible fighters, but they are apparently terrible with tactics. I buy the whole argument about why they couldn't let the monsters circle the city and thus why they had to open the shield, but they did it before they had their clearly excellently defensive force (their phalanx, effectively) in position in front of that ten foot wide hole. And not only that, but they charged across the field, getting spread out and engaging these monsters, which have no ranged attacks, hand-to-hand. I'm willing to forgive it because it was very cinematic and dramatic, but it annoyed me. Break the laws of physics all you want if you have a world in which that's possible, but don't break the logic of the world you create.
Anyway, all-in-all, this is an exceptional film, close to a perfect movie. I can't wait to see it again.
Saw it just a bit ago. Not going as in-depth rn because I'm still processing, but some spoilery thoughts.
Spoiler
-the Rocket Racoon/Winter Soldier line might also be a reference to this meme (https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aQpPYxr_700b.jpg) that's been circulating since Guardians 1.
-Red Skull being here was a genuine surprise, but honestly... it should not have been for me specifically. Even putting aside the fact that Hugo had a history of being done with the MCU that mysteriously ended quite recently, he also was the only villain (that we know of) to get a single carded release for the "10 years of MCU" toy line (and I say that we know of because the Infinity War set has not been revealed. I am hard pressed to think who could be in it though.)
-Every heroic character from Phase 1 survived. Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Black Widow, Hulk, War Machine, and Hawkeye. And yes, we know Hawkeye too, because he's been seen on set in the Ronin gear. That seems VERY deliberate, since the only other hero left is Rocket.
-A friend I went to the film with pointed out that right before she's attacked, Shuri swipes something off to the side. It's entirely possible she also made a backup of Vision's consciousness, which gives them an easy way to bring him back.
As for the next films...
Spoiler
I will say, based on what I've heard, both of the next films will be tied in even more so than normal. Ant Man and Wasp will supposedly play a major role in expanding on a concept we'll need for Avengers 4 (likely the Microverse, since we've seen set photos of Janet van Dyne) and will likely give us a different perspective of events leading up to Avengers 3 and 4 given it takes place before either. Similarly, Captain Marvel supposedly will lead directly into Avengers 4, especially since the film is set to come out 6 weeks before Avengers 4 does.
One thing I didn't even notice the first time I saw it that some random guy said towards the end...
Spoiler
After everyone started fading away, after Dr. Strange faded away, the guy behind me noted back at his prior comment when he gave Thanos the stone, something along the lines of "this is how it has to play out" or something to that effect. Obviously he knows what's going to happen in the future, which is why he was okay with giving up the stone, but it also, at the time, seemed like he knew not just that he'd be going, but also knew where he was going too... maybe. Just seemed like a odd choice of words upon a second viewing/thought.
Benton:
Indeed, I so focused on the ending that I didn't really praise what an accomplishment this film is. But I knew a LOT of people, both professionally and simply as fans, were going to do that anyway that a lot of what I would say would be redundant. But yeah, that all-points-converging high you get from a movie like this, it could only work if you had a rich world full of incredibly likable compelling characters. Something I've said for years is the MCU recreates the Marvel/DC shared universe experience from the comics (so does DC in is current movies, though not nearly as well) and that's perhaps most true here.
Spoiler
QuoteBut perhaps most important of all, remember what the Vision told Ultron: "A thing is not beautiful because it lasts."
Well, as Vision said right after that, he was born yesterday.
Regarding Thanos' use of his powers referencing the lore: Indeed, it goes far deeper than I even realized. I was just looking at the Tvtropes page for the film earlier tonight, and apparently many of the things Thanos does in the movie (the bubbles, for example) resemble things that he did in the Marvel Vs. Capcom games. Who knows if those were intentional references, but if they were, that's seriously impressive.
Actually, thinking of Mantis and Drax's cosmic body horror scenes just makes me want to see the Cancerverse from Abnett and Lanning's Cosmic comics appear in the movies. Now THAT would be wild.
Tom:
Spoiler
Quote-A friend I went to the film with pointed out that right before she's attacked, Shuri swipes something off to the side. It's entirely possible she also made a backup of Vision's consciousness, which gives them an easy way to bring him back.
I have no doubt in my mind that Shuri working on Vish will pay off in the next film. They just would not spend THAT much time and go that into detail about it for it to not amount to anything in the end, and Vision is way too awesome to waste like this, even if he was created with a built-in expiry date, so to speak. On that note, over on the Tvtropes page they pointed out that when Thanos takes Vision's gem and he collapses, he loses all the color in his body, which might be a reference to...well, Optimus Prime, perhaps, but also the 90's version of the character, who was all white (video game fans might recognize this version from the "Captain America and the Avengers" video games from the nineties) That Vision lost his emotions and became cold, and in the movie it's said that removing the mind stone might make him a completely different Vision. Personally I wouldn't mind a little Jonas/Teen Vision from Young Avengers action, but again, wishful thinking. Worked for Groot though. I'm a little curious is Shuri could actually copy Vish's consciousness to a computer storage, since Vish said that the mind stone, among several other's people (J.A.R.V.I.S., Tony, Banner and Ultron) is a key part of who he is.
In general [SERIOUS SPOILERS for Avengers 4]
Spoiler
Set photos have also shown a grey-haired Tony (IN A SHIELD UNIFORM HOW DID I MISS THAT!!!), Ant-Man, Cap, and Banner (in full motion capture attire) wearing wrist tech. (https://i.redd.it/awakyyzagh901.jpg) And Cap's wearing that godawful costume from the first Avengers movie (side note: I hate that costume. I said in 2012 it looks like a cheap Halloween costume, and I stand by it).
Time travel. IT. WILL. HAPPEN.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on April 30, 2018, 07:56:37 AM
Spoiler
Quote-A friend I went to the film with pointed out that right before she's attacked, Shuri swipes something off to the side. It's entirely possible she also made a backup of Vision's consciousness, which gives them an easy way to bring him back.
I have no doubt in my mind that Shuri working on Vish will pay off in the next film. They just would not spend THAT much time and go that into detail about it for it to not amount to anything in the end, and Vision is way too awesome to waste like this, even if he was created with a built-in expiry date, so to speak. On that note, over on the Tvtropes page they pointed out that when Thanos takes Vision's gem and he collapses, which might be a reference to...well, Optimus Prime, perhaps, but also the 90's version of the character, who was all white (video game fans might recognize this version from the "Captain America and the Avengers" video games from the nineties) That Vision lost his emotions and became cold, and in the movie it's said that removing the mind stone might make him a completely different Vision. Personally I wouldn't mind a little Jonas/Teen Vision from Young Avengers action, but again, wishful thinking. Worked for Groot though. I'm a little curious is Shuri could actually copy Vish's consciousness to a computer storage, since Vish said that the mind stone, among several other's people (J.A.R.V.I.S., Tony, Banner and Ultron) is a key part of who he is.
The funny thing about that is, I thought about this playing "Contest of Champions" last week.
Spoiler
Since it was updated, they added the Black Order characters and black and white versions of a few other characters, Scarlet Witch, Hyperion and Vision who didn't look quite like his 90s version, but it certain reminded me of it, which lead me to believe in Infinity War the character would look a bit monochromatic at some point. Whether he comes back or not, who's to say. But I do like Tomato's theory.
Good catch Tomato.
Also, not to keep harping on the ending but, saw something in a article that kinda put in better words what I have a problem with:
Spoiler
You may call it bold and unexpected. I call it a cop-out. It's clear that these deaths are going to be reversed, massively cheapening what is supposed to be a cliffhanger. Had it been Captain America or Iron Man who was being killed, it would at least be believable and held some emotional weight because you know their time with Marvel is coming to an end. Instead, you know the biggest moment in the biggest Marvel movie thus far is eventually going to be erased.
Speaking of the Black Order (as Shogunn mentions under the spoiler cut) I forgot to mention: Ebony Maw was
great. The rest of the Black Order were as throwaway as throwaway gets, and weren't particularly true to their comics counterparts. But Maw was aces. :thumbup:
Shogun:
Spoiler
QuoteAlso, not to keep harping on the ending but, saw something in a article that kinda put in better words what I have a problem with:
You may call it bold and unexpected. I call it a cop-out. It's clear that these deaths are going to be reversed, massively cheapening what is supposed to be a cliffhanger. Had it been Captain America or Iron Man who was being killed, it would at least be believable and held some emotional weight because you know their time with Marvel is coming to an end. Instead, you know the biggest moment in the biggest Marvel movie thus far is eventually going to be erased.
True, and perhaps they'll have a character (probably Tony, as many have guessed) make a final sacrifice. Is it bold? Yeah, but lots of series/storylines are bold. Even some bad ones. Unexpected? For the non-comics fans, perhaps. For the fans who know about the Infinity Gauntlet comic, heeeell no. There were people expecting this plot point to make it in years in advance. And hardcore Marvel fans are thoroughly conditioned to accept that heaven and hell have a revolving door in the superhero genre. And even without knowledge of the IG comic, like I said, I've seen so many different series do comparable cliffhangers I keep remembering more as I post in this thread (Ninja Turtles did it quite a few times, in both the 2K3 cartoon and the Nicktoons one. Naruto had a particularly epic one. Dragon Ball Z did it a few times. Remender's Uncanny Avengers did it. Beast Wars did it two years in a row. Reboot did it at least three times. Transformers Prime did it.) To me, the audacity has to do with the wait, which is considerably longer than pretty much any example I could come up with, (well, except for the book series Game of Thrones is based on, of course) and the fact that they made us wait through the entire credits for a Samuel L. Jackson meme and a crummy commercial (to quote Ralphie from A Christmas Story). With a different post-credit scene, a shorter wait, and the next two movies feeling less like "The Filler Saga" I might have had 0% issue with the ending. Now, if they had the TRAILER for the 4th movie after the credits, as Captain America did for The Avengers and The Matrix Reloaded did for its followup, I indeed would be pumped up. #ThanosDemandsTheTrailer
Actually that would have made a lot of sense, to do what Captain America did.
Taking inspiration from Cap is always a good play. So much so, that the speech (the "River of Truth" speech paraphrased from Mark Twain, spoken by Sharon Carter in CA: Civil War) that sprang Cap to action, was spoken BY Cap in the comic book Civil War.
I've lost count on how many times I've shared that speech on FB.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on April 30, 2018, 07:56:37 AM
Benton:
Indeed, I so focused on the ending that I didn't really praise what an accomplishment this film is. But I knew a LOT of people, both professionally and simply as fans, were going to do that anyway that a lot of what I would say would be redundant. But yeah, that all-points-converging high you get from a movie like this, it could only work if you had a rich world full of incredibly likable compelling characters. Something I've said for years is the MCU recreates the Marvel/DC shared universe experience from the comics (so does DC in is current movies, though not nearly as well) and that's perhaps most true here.
Yeah, it's pretty amazing, and this movie really is the payoff of pretty much everything that came before.
Spoiler
Quote from: Silver Shocker on April 30, 2018, 07:56:37 AM
QuoteBut perhaps most important of all, remember what the Vision told Ultron: "A thing is not beautiful because it lasts."
Well, as Vision said right after that, he was born yesterday.
Ha! Fair enough. ;) Yet, I still think there is some truth to the assertion in this context, on multiple levels.
SS, fascinating! Very interesting!
On another note, the more I think about it, y'all are right about Hawkeye:
Spoiler
There is really no reason for him not to be in this film, both in terms of his personality, as y'all pointed out, but also because Cap aparently sprang him and the rest of the team at the end of Civil War. Given that his family's location was a secret known only to the Avengers and Fury (and presumably Tony wouldn't have come after him after everything that happened), there's no reason for him to have taken a deal in the first place.
In terms of Thanos, this is sort of a minor thing, but why in the name of all that's good and holy did they end up going with that bald-headed look for him for the overwhelming majority of the film? He looked perfect, intimidating, and straight out of the comics when he first showed up. And he looked a lot more dignified than the look they went with. What a weird choice!
About Thanos' armor
Spoiler
The idea is to make him more... human, if that makes sense. On some level, they're actually going for the post-IG Thanos from the comics, the dude content to farm his crops in peace. The armor is much, MUCH cooler (and I feel like he should have still worn it in fight scenes beyond the Hulk one) and saved the simpler attire for the scenes with Gamora... but whatcha gonna do.
Also
Spoiler
So to everyone attributing the Shuri/Vision point to me, I do feel obligated to point out that... as I said in the initial post, I didn't notice the movement myself, my friend Eric did. While I'm usually pretty quick to pick apart plot details and tropes like that (I routinely annoy friends for guessing plot points ahead of time), I concede that I'm riding on Eric's coattails for that nugget of insight. I did share the kind words with him though.
Tomato:
Yeah, but you were still the one who pointed out here. I personally missed that visual detail. The next time I see the film I'll watch to watch carefully for that.
Quote from: TomatoSpoiler
-Every heroic character from Phase 1 survived. Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Black Widow, Hulk, War Machine, and Hawkeye. And yes, we know Hawkeye too, because he's been seen on set in the Ronin gear. That seems VERY deliberate, since the only other hero left is Rocket.
Spoiler
You're not counting Fury and Hill?
As for Thanos' armor, yeah, I prefer him wearing his full armor, but I got used to the bald-headed look by the time the film came out due to it being featured prominently in the trailers.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 01, 2018, 02:33:15 AM
SS, fascinating! Very interesting!
Are you referring to what I said about Cap's River of Truth speech or that Avengers 4 set photo I posted a link to?
If it's the speech, it was also used in the Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 video game in the form of an audio log, where it was said by Cap, as in the Civil War comic tie-in issues (the specific series was Amazing Spider-Man)
If it's the set photo:
Spoiler
Yeah, that one photo actually does tell you a lot. It tells you:
-Those four characters (if not any others) will be time travelling using devices on their wrists (as opposed to the Time Gem)
-They will be travelling to some point before the Winter Soldier (I'm genuinely curious as to why)
-Tony Stark apparently will be sneaking around some place S.H.I.E.L.D. operates (I would imagine the Helicarrier) disguised in a SHIELD uniform (how he's going to keep people from just taking one look at him and going "Tony Stark? What are you doing here?!") remains to be seen. I wonder if he'll use some kind of image inducer to make himself like Fury or something.
-Tony has either gotten grey hair or dyed his hair, implying either a time jump and/or an attempt to make it harder to tell he's Tony Stark while infiltrating Shield (???)
-Ant-Man will apparently team-up with these 3 characters, and maybe others. Either that or they'll all split up and go to different times, but they'll apparently get the tech from the same source.
-Banner will become the Hulk again, or at least have a partial transformation like we saw throughout Infinity War (not really a big surprise, but still notable)
I would guess that the time period before Winter Soldier will not be the only time period to time travel to, but time will tell. In any case, taking a good look at this image and catching all these details actually cheered me up quite a bit after the ending bummed me out, though it does make me wish something like this was the post credit scene for Infinity War.
Quote from: Tomato on May 01, 2018, 03:57:29 AM
About Thanos' armor
Spoiler
The idea is to make him more... human, if that makes sense. On some level, they're actually going for the post-IG Thanos from the comics, the dude content to farm his crops in peace. The armor is much, MUCH cooler (and I feel like he should have still worn it in fight scenes beyond the Hulk one) and saved the simpler attire for the scenes with Gamora... but whatcha gonna do.
I understand that, 'Mato, and you're not wrong. Still, as you indicate, it was only necessary for a fraction of the time it was used. I think it would be a good deal more effective if:
Spoiler
he had taken the armor off once his mission was complete.
He just looks a tad silly. It annoyed me that they would deliver the perfect look and then immediately discard it. This is, of course, a very minor complaint.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2018, 08:26:47 PM
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 01, 2018, 02:33:15 AM
SS, fascinating! Very interesting!
Are you referring to what I said about Cap's River of Truth speech or that Avengers 4 set photo I posted a link to?
If it's the speech, it was also used in the Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 video game in the form of an audio log, where it was said by Cap, as in the Civil War comic tie-in issues (the specific series was Amazing Spider-Man)
If it's the set photo:
Spoiler
Yeah, that one photo actually does tell you a lot. It tells you:
-Those four characters (if not any others) will be time travelling using devices on their wrists (as opposed to the Time Gem)
-They will be travelling to some point before the Winter Soldier (I'm genuinely curious as to why)
-Tony Stark apparently will be sneaking around some place S.H.I.E.L.D. operates (I would imagine the Helicarrier) disguised in a SHIELD uniform (how he's going to keep people from just taking one look at him and going "Tony Stark? What are you doing here?!") remains to be seen. I wonder if he'll use some kind of image inducer to make himself like Fury or something.
-Tony has either gotten grey hair or dyed his hair, implying either a time jump and/or an attempt to make it harder to tell he's Tony Stark while infiltrating Shield (???)
-Ant-Man will apparently team-up with these 3 characters, and maybe others. Either that or they'll all split up and go to different times, but they'll apparently get the tech from the same source.
-Banner will become the Hulk again, or at least have a partial transformation like we saw throughout Infinity War (not really a big surprise, but still notable)
I would guess that the time period before Winter Soldier will not be the only time period to time travel to, but time will tell. In any case, taking a good look at this image and catching all these details actually cheered me up quite a bit after the ending bummed me out, though it does make me wish something like this was the post credit scene for Infinity War.
I was talking about the Avengers 4 observations:
Spoiler
Very perceptive, but let me offer some other thoughts:
-Tony's gray hair may well be a result of the trauma he experienced in this film and not a time jump, as the others look the same (unless, he's Tony from the future, having gone back to recruit them to go yet further back).
-It's also possible that SHIELD has been reinstated post Thanos, so the uniform is not necessarily a clue on that angle. Perhaps Tony has become head of SHIELD following the disappearance of both Fury and Hill.
-Since we know that Ant-Man will visit the microverse in his next movie, I wonder if that will have some connection to the time travel and such.
-Actually, looking at it again, my guess is that this image indicates a visit to Avengers 1 era, as Cap looks just like he did in that film, down to his hair color.
-And also, I don't care what y'all say. I love that Cap costume. It is perfect! :D
I'm glad that this cheered you up some, man! :)
On Thanos' Armor:
Spoiler
He could just conjure armor out of thin air once he got the Reality stone.
Avengers 4:
Spoiler
I actually had thought of that about Tony just after I wrote the post. That he could have been an older Tony Stark from the future, or an alternate future where S.H.I.E.L.D. was never disbanded. Tony Stark, agent of SHIELD? Maybe he's the one who comes to them and supplies them with the time travel tech?
The only reason I wouldn't think it's Avengers 1 Cap is because he's wearing the wrist device. If they went back in time, why would they bring that Cap with them?
Or maybe it's a partial adaptation of Avengers Forever. Multiple Avengers from multiple different eras.
Spoiler
See, Fury is the exception because they had to tie in to Captain Marvel, and younger Fury supposedly is a big part of that. And to be fair, it's clearly not 1:1... Rocket, for example, is left as well. My point was more that, on a meta side, there's a disproportionate number of characters left from Phase 1 than from 2 and 3, and it feels SUPER deliberate. Given that most of them have contracts ending, it's entirely possible that most if not all the remaining heroes will end up sacrificing themselves to bring back the ones we just lost... it would complete Cap's arc with Bucky, Tony's arc about saving his friends and specifically Peter, even Rocket's arc from GotG2 would have a fitting conclusion if he ends up sacrificing himself for his "family".
Spoiler
That's entirely reasonable, 'Mato, but I hope you're wrong. I don't know how they would do it, but I hope they'll give us an ending for these characters that is just a ride into the sunset rather than killing them off. Cap is the trickiest. Given his personality, I don't see how future events could keep him on the bench. Still, that's my (probably vain) hope.
Returning to something from earlier:
Shogunn:
Spoiler
QuoteYes, were not the only ones who feel the way we do.
I'm actually very surprised by the lack of comments online I've seen that are cheesed off by the ending (which may say more about the limited pool of sites I check to see what people think). Might might be partly due to the flick only being out for a few days, might be also be because, as I later learned, extensive pre-release spoilers leaked for the film a little bit in advance. *shugs* Who knows?
I'm waiting on my RL buds, who are consistently more busy than I am, to manage to see the flick so I can hear what they say, but I'm genuinely curious what they'll think considering they're not into the source material and aren't going to be like "well, SURE in the COMICS..." I had a games night with my nephew on Sunday, and he's very "No Spoilers please" so all I said was the ending made me want to see the next one right away and he said to that "That means it's good". I'm curious if he'll feel the same way once he's seen the flick. I'm also looking forward to popping into the local comic book store this week for my books because I may very well get to discuss it water cooler style with the regulars.
I knew there'd be people who'd stand by the ending, and that's fine, but it's also the reason I ended my initial post with #ItsOKToHateTheEnding
QuoteI was trying to explain to a friend, it's like watching the Avengers and getting to the part where Loki kills Coulson and chucks Thor from the Helicarrrier and the credits roll after that. Of course I'm going to be like "What the fuzz? Where's the rest of the movie?" Don't get me wrong, I liked a lot of what I saw but if you're going to produce a movie some of us would appreciate a resolution. Like a beginning, middle and end. An end with a protagonist finding closure and I didn't get that.
Again, I get cliffhangers. A cliffhanger like revealing Thanos sent the Chitauri or the Winter Soldier is still alive. But even in those cases the Avengers stopped Loki and Captain America stopped Hydra's plot. There was closure. Even when you take it to other properties like with Star Wars, where many are comparing this to Empire Strikes Back. Yes, our heroes took Ls across the board but they got away. The whole movie was the Empire chasing them down and they got away. And even that can't be viewed in a vacuum. It's the 2nd part of a 3 part series, IE the 2nd act. This wasn't that. They specifically said this isn't Infinity War "Part 1", it's it's own separate story and there's no way I can judge this by itself. I feel there's more to the story. Actually I don't feel. Chadwick Bozeman, Chris Pratt and Tom Holland have sequels to make so I know they're not dead and thus I know the story's incomplete. Like what's the point of doing a pump fake when the defense know you're not going to throw it.
I know right? If you were to compare it to Empire, a closer comparison would be if Empire ended like this:
-Vader says "I am your father", Luke falls down the shaft and then it fades to credits and replaces the usual Star Wars end credits music with the slow, foreboding version of the Imperial March (the one that actually plays during the "I Am Your Father" scene)
-Lando doesn't spring Leia and the others. They just hint that he might in the next movie.
It's been a few days, and I still can't stop thinking about that gosh-darn ending. I guess they must have something right, but hrmm.. I've been talking about it for days, reading/skimming a bunch of articles about it, and I'm still not entirely convinced I didn't imagine it in a cough-syrup-fueled fever dream.
In general:
Spoiler
I just remembered I'd been meaning to say: For the record: I 100% expected the snap to make it into the movie. There's no point in making Grimace the villain of an Avengers movie and building up the Infinity Gems and Gauntlet if you're not going to have him do the thing he's remembered for doing. It'd be like making a Batman movie where Bane's the main villain and forgetting to have him break Batman's back, or making Doomsday the villain of a Superman movie and not having Superman die fighting him. But I never in my wildest imagination guessed they would end the movie right there on the spot.
Adrian Pasdar (Glenn Talbot on Shield) has said in an interview that Shield will be tying into IW in the final episodes of the season. That could be interesting. I actually was't expecting that since Shield's well into their ongoing story and there's only a few episodes left.
Another thing branching off about the theory of the Avengers team collected in Avengers 4...
Spoiler
They have confirmed that a new older actress is going to play Cassie Lang in A4 and she had stated in an interview she was fitted for a costume. So we definitely are going to get Stature from Young Avengers somewhere in the film. With Tony Stark's dream comment about having a child PLUS Vision and Scarlet Witch spending time together while he trying to become more human (maybe getting Wanda pregnant).. and development for Patriot was done for Black Panther but dropped because there wasn't enough time to flesh him out... I'm completely expecting that Young Avengers will make an appearance during Time Traveling.
Plus a group of YouTubers I follow decided to do a deep dive in speculation also had these theories..
Spoiler
With Feige and the Russo Brothers confirming that deaths will mean something and have lasting consequences within current and future movies (i.e. No More Fake Deaths), How would they handle the dustings of those effected by Thanos' finger snap in A4? Some folks kicked around the idea that alternate reality hopping would be used by pulling folks out of time lines where they survived Thanos' attack. One idea that stuck with me was Tony and Steve having a grand plan by changing just enough events (including the addition of Carol Danvers to the team) that Nebula is there for the final battle and when they get the glove off Thanos, she puts it on instead and snaps her fingers which has entirely different effects including reversing the deaths of the first movie (i.e. those who dusted now live but those who survived end up dying instead with a few exceptions). This keeps the stakes of the glove intact and not just undone by having someone like Wong using the time gem to just rewind everything and then Scarlet Witch destroys the glove.
So much speculating will be done over the next year and each film to come next.. Antman 2 and Captain Marvel will add more teases to fuel the fire.
- CQ
Quill nice finds!
Spoiler
Yep, I mentioned Cassie earlier in the thread. Didn't know she was fitted for the costume. This has me filled to the brim with a girlish glee! The only question is will it be Stature or Stinger? (Neither. It's her original unused name, Titan. :P) I did hear about Patriot, I just figured they didn't use him because the original Patriot, Jeffrey Mace, made it into Shield. But yeah, Young Avengers. It will happen. And I couldn't be happier about that, especially since it increases the chances of a comic revival by about 100%.
On your other comment. Those guys could be totally right about Nebula. She did get some attention in Infinity War and she was a villain in the IG comic so that makes a lot of sense. I those guys could be on to something.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 02, 2018, 12:52:36 PM
In general:
Spoiler
I just remembered I'd been meaning to say: For the record: I 100% expected the snap to make it into the movie. There's no point in making Grimace the villain of an Avengers movie and building up the Infinity Gems and Gauntlet if you're not going to have him do the thing he's remembered for doing. It'd be like making a Batman movie where Bane's the main villain and forgetting to have him break Batman's back, or making Doomsday the villain of a Superman movie and not having Superman die fighting him. But I never in my wildest imagination guessed they would end the movie right there on the spot.
Adrian Pasdar (Glenn Talbot on Shield) has said in an interview that Shield will be tying into IW in the final episodes of the season. That could be interesting. I actually was't expecting that since Shield's well into their ongoing story and there's only a few episodes left.
Not sure if anyone's watching but I think all I've seen so far was to the effect "Hey you heard about what's going on in New York? Pretty wild, right?"
And the reason that's not in spoiler tags because I think Agents of SHIELD was avoiding spoilers with such a vague reference too. Like what's going on in New York? They found Luke Cage? Jessica Jones outed herself with powers? Think it was purposely vague. But I gotta imagine there's more to MAOS because they've always tied in the movies SOMEHOW like revealing it was Coulson who got Fury the Helicarriers in Age of Ultron or Asgardians showing up after Thor and of course the big Hydra reveal from Winter Soldier. No way that can just let this go.
Oh sure. "Heard what's going on in New York? Pretty Wild, right" could refer to "A big honking spaceship showed up" which you can clearly see in the trailers.
Yeah, those Shield tie-ins were great. I was a little let down by the Civil War One, and the Doctor Strange one was pretty underwhelming as a tie-in IMO.
What was the Dr. Strange one?
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 03, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
What was the Dr. Strange one?
None. Dr. Strange happened behind the scenes, so nobody much even knew it was happening. There was a vague thematic tie in with Ghost Rider and a magic book, but that was about it.
My guess is that Thanos will be involved with the alien alliance, possibly just chasing it away, but possible it's part of his forces all along and he invades when their quieter takeover fails. I predict the season will end where Infinity War begins.
That shadow dimension they went to was apparently considered a Dr. Strange tie-in, which I thought was a stretch.
AOS's Doctor Strange connection was mostly just the Darkholme being the missing book from Wong's library (it's very clearly framed in a shot that a book was missing and the chains were broken) and Ghost Rider having learned to use his chain like a slingring to create portals. Robbie also mentions that he got involved with huge conflict where he spent years outside of time (the mirror dimension?) learning how to control the supernatural powers that Rider gives him without letting the demon control him fully. Could this be a seed of his own spin-off show? Or a cameo in the next Doctor Strange (who better then to teach Robbie and maybe we get an appearance of Johnny Blaze and/or Blade as other soldiers).
The shadow dimension is connected to the Darkholme because it deals with Death Magic and how to weave spells between life and death (which I assume that AIDA used to build her body and other more advanced LMDs). It's a book that would be very very dangerous if it got into the hands of Mordo.
- CQ
Random thought,could we ever see Starfox in the MCU?
Probably not,since Dan Slott made him unusable.Not that it matters actually,since most of the audience never ever heard of him.
To be fair, there's a lot of characters that most of the audience never heard of. That's a big part of the reason why Guardians was considered such an oddball wild card choice prior to release. They were a very niche property and now they're beloved movie characters that people expect to see appear in subsequent installments. I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there said about Infinity War "I'll watch it for the Guardians".
Now Starfox would have to be reworked from the ground up, but so were Yondu and Mantis (and Ego, kinda) , so it's really not outside the realm of possibility.
Quote from: HarryTrotter on May 04, 2018, 12:23:19 PM
Random thought,could we ever see Starfox in the MCU?
Probably not,since Dan Slott made him unusable.Not that it matters actually,since most of the audience never ever heard of him.
What the heck did Slott do to Starfox?
In Slotts She-Hulk,several women sue Starfox because he,possibly,used his euphoria powers to date defile them.
Its never proven,but it kinda leaves a big Henry-Pym-sized mark on the character.
I don't think Starfox would have been likely regardless, if for no other reason then he's a white dude whose brother is a giant purple alien. Yes, I know Thanos is supposed to be a freak of nature and it's part of his backstory, but it's something they'd have to waste time explaining and the film barely had time for the content it had.
I'd have been cool with Eros being a purple alien with stupid hair showing up for a flashback to Thanos' past though. Nod and wink and all that.
Yes,thats the part that really strains the suspension of disbelief.
As much as I appreciate the sarcasm, I'm being serious. It's the same reason Drax went from "Zombie human brought back to kill Thanos by Thanos' cosmic entity grandpa" to "alien with a funny speech quirk." There's aliens all over the place in the GotG, the fact that there's a big Hulk looking purple dude doesn't even have to be mentioned, they can just show him in space and people unfamiliar with the comics will take him as just another type of alien.
Showing his white, human looking brother would raise questions, which the filmmakers can either not answer (in which case why include Eros and Thanos' race at all, since all they'll do is confuse audience members), give the explanation from the comics (which takes time away from the rest of the film as I said) or make him and the rest of Thanos' race "normal looking" purple dudes in contrast to Thanos' hulking appearance. The last option leaves no questions for audience members other then "who is that dude with the red hair?", leaves things open for Thanos to still be a freak due to his size, and even allows for a white Eros in later films, if the filmmakers choose, by having his appearance be somewhat tied to his powerset.
Wait,aliens are belivable,but a white guy isnt?This a new level,even for you. :D
Consistency with the world established is what matters, and what differs from that gives an audience pause.
Seems like I remember a point where Starfox and Mentor were purple.
QuoteConsistency with the world established is what matters, and what differs from that gives an audience pause.
While I agree with that 100%, I think it's a matter of finding a way to make
whatever you want to put in work for your world. MCU has added aliens and magic and completely different tones i'n their movies and it has always
worked, even if a couple of the movies were below par. No offense to anyone here, but I remember a time when we were talking about Galactus and people said an audience couldn't suspend disbelief for a giant planet eating humanoid. But the MCU (who of course was not responsible for any of the horrible F4 movies) has taken us so far in so many wild directions and I've never once not been along for the ride. Good storytelling and filmmaking can and should break any "rule".
Infinity War was amazing, I won't say it's the best one, but it's definitely the biggest and most ambitious movie I've ever seen and while it was a rollercoaster of emotions, I never felt detached.
So I watched Black Panther this week. Ever since it came out in theaters, I had a niggling worry it wouldn't live up to the massive amount of hype. Well, I don't know if it lived up to all of the hype, but it was really good. I didn't really dislike any of it and I was entertained and locked into the story for the full length of it.
New Venom trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCn88bfW1o)
I still don't know if this movie has any reason to exist, but Venom himself does look pretty dang cool.
It'd be nice if there was a bit more white in there, but given the lack of Spider-man it does make sense that he wouldn't have the insignia.
So the villain of the movie is, apparently, Riot. Which, on the one hand, I'm glad for, because it makes sense given what we know of the antagonist that they used one of the symbiotes from the Life Foundation in the comics for what appears to be the equivalent of it in the films... though I kinda wish they'd gone with something like Lasher or, better yet, Hybrid. Nothing against Riot, it's just that a symbiote fight between symbiotes that are Black and Dark Gray creates... problems from a visual perspective. Plus... I know I'm the same guy going "UGH they better not do Carnage" but Riot as the main antagonist feels... underwhelming. Hybrid would have fit within the narrative and having the "final boss" as it were have the power of four symbiotes combined would work better, IMHO.
The second trailer does at least look better than the first one. I am glad they are emphasizing that he's an anti-hero and not trying to make him out as a typical hero protagonist. We'll see I guess.
Is this film part of the MCU at all or is it something entirely separate? It just feels like it exists in this weird limbo.
It is Canon to the homecoming series, but not really to the mcu. It's... Odd.
Captain Marvel Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LHxvxdRnYc):
I liked that we get a lot of footage of her flying around in the costume. I like how convincing the digitally de-aged Nick Fury. And of course, I like the cat. Other than that, we don't get much of a idea what the plot will be.
But none of that matters because CAAAAAAAT!!!! ^_^
Since the cat took out his eye he nevet trusted anyone again.
That's pretty funny. And almost certainly true.
We don't know how Fury lost his eye, do we? Maybe it happens in this film.
Civil War tells us it was during the hostage crisis where he rescued Robert Redford's character at an embassy.
Way, way back when I think it was a WW II wound (Sgt. Fury #27) that later gave him trouble. Thus, in FF #21 he has no eyepatch, but when SHIELD got its' own series he was given an eyepatch.
Well, the first trailer for the last Avengers movie has dropped....it looks like it's going to be called Avengers: End Game. It's interesting, but there's not too much to work with yet. Needless to say, I'm excited, but this feels super early. I guess this semester has just flown by for me. :)
https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/7/18130395/avengers-endgame-4-trailer-release-date-april-2019-infinity-war
It was probably something to do with Skrulls.
Which probably inspired to start the whole Avengers thing.
Im kinda dissapointed we will never see a Publisher/Fury team up.
"last" avengers movie. Yeah, sure.
Honestly I'm surprised it took so long. Avengers 4 comes out only a month or so after Captain Marvel, which has had 2 trailers and most of the toy line revealed. This is the first time we've even had confirmation of the name, even if several people guessed months ago.
Got around to Infinity Wars.A big round of IP bingo ending in a cgi clusterfunt of faceless armies.Its a lot like Ready Player One.Or any movie made in the last 10 years.
I didnt hate it,mind you.But I dont have any strong emotions towards it either way.
Wow, HT, I think you must be dead inside. Ha, IW was one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had in a theater.
'Mato, you're probably right. Like I said, the semester has just flown by for me. Seems early.
I probably am. 😉
But in general Im tired of the final battle between two cgi mook armies.EVERY movie does that.
So I had been re-reading chunks of this thread re: Infinity War, and I realized there were a few things I meant to comment on that I apparently declined to, or just didn't have time to and/or forgot about.
First order of business, I found the Avengers 4 trailer profoundly disappointing. It's short, it tells us very little (and yes, I'm sure for many people that's precisely why it's a perfect teaser trailer) but after a half a gosh darn year and the most frustrating cliffhanger in the history of cinema, it left me severely wanting. And other than maybe the last scene of the trailer because spoilers, there's absolutely no reason this shouldn't have been the post credit scene for Infinity War.
Spoiler
The scarecrow was cute. The "show don't tell" with Hawkeye is expertly done. The Scott Lang tag at the end was funny, and intriguing, but other than that? It tells us very little new information about what the next movie's actually going to be about, and most damning of all, it doesn't even acknowledge the time travel we already know happens from leaked photos and other leaks. It might be mildly hinted at, with the little Peggy Carter locket, but the only reason I know that is because that was the plot of an episode of Avengers Assemble.
And yeah, those are unofficial, but I've heard critics virulently argue that part of the MCU's success is taking advantage of a modern internet age where you can watch the trailer, read up on the movie and the source material on Wikipedia, read the original comics, and watch the actual movies on your phone. So by that logic, still pretending we don't already know about the time travel and giving us nothing in the meantime is honestly, kind of insulting. It feels like this trailer was cut by the same Disney people who legitimately think everybody's going to pay for their streaming service to watch a PG Daredevil, a Scarlet Witch spinoff and a Rogue One Cassian Andor spinoff, and isn't just going to pirate the ever loving crap out of the Clone Wars revival and the Mandalorian (and yes, I will subscribe to the service if they make it available outside the U.S. day one)
You know what the video game industry often does when a game we're not supposed to know about leaks? They just release the trailer early so we can then see it the way they want us to see it, since the cat's already out of the bag. For example, last year we knew a trailer was going to hit for Red Red Redemption 2 E3 2017, but they cancelled it because of gun violence, but they knew we knew so they admitted it.
The Ant-Man sequence is cute, but it also has me seriously confused and not necessarily in a good way. So I get the idea: they just assumed Scott died and all of a sudden he pulls up in his van like it's business as usual and all of a sudden it's "Holy crap, there's one more person alive out there than we thought there was, and he's a superhero too and he just pulled up at our doorstep. Now we stand a chance!"
But 1. If Scott's been in the Quantum Realm and just got out, how did he do it? I always assumed The Avengers would end up finding him. After all, the idea behind the post credit scene in Ant-Man & Wasp was that Scott was trapped in there because Hank and others got dusted and therefore couldn't let him out.
2. If Scott's been gone for who knows how long, how come he's still got the exact same 5'o Clock shadow he has in 100% of the previous movies? What, did he never grow facial hair in the Quantum Realm, was it 5 minutes for him and 5 years for everyone else? Did he do a quick shave before he got here?
Oh speaking of which, LOL Cap's beard got dusted from the snap. That reminds me, why the crap is Black Widow still dying her hair after all this time? I assumed the reason why she did that was because she was on the run, did she just decide she liked the platinum blonde look and decided to keep it? Because that seems incredibly unlikely considering her, Steve and the rest basically lived through the end of the world. Daryl from the Walking Dead can't be bothered to cut his damn hair but Black Widow's still dying hers after all this time? That's just weird.
Lastly, Scott seems pretty chill considering he seemingly was trapped in the Quantum Realm for who knows how long and, presumably just stepped out onto (I assume) the MCU version of the Walking Dead, (minus the zombies, one assumes).
Like The Riddler, it just raises too many questions.
Anyway, the other thing I wanted to talk about was Eros. I don't remember why I never bothered to comment on it beyond my initial comment, but I had two things to add.
Quote from: daglob on May 05, 2018, 10:38:51 PM
Seems like I remember a point where Starfox and Mentor were purple.
They originally were, later stories and some reprints of the original story changed their skin color. The $1 reprint that came out around the time of Avengers: Infinity War, that I read back then, for example, kept the original coloring for posterity's sake. I could have sworn I responded to this back in the day. Maybe the board ate it while I was originally writing it.
QuoteAs much as I appreciate the sarcasm, I'm being serious. It's the same reason Drax went from "Zombie human brought back to kill Thanos by Thanos' cosmic entity grandpa" to "alien with a funny speech quirk." There's aliens all over the place in the GotG, the fact that there's a big Hulk looking purple dude doesn't even have to be mentioned, they can just show him in space and people unfamiliar with the comics will take him as just another type of alien.
Showing his white, human looking brother would raise questions, which the filmmakers can either not answer (in which case why include Eros and Thanos' race at all, since all they'll do is confuse audience members), give the explanation from the comics (which takes time away from the rest of the film as I said) or make him and the rest of Thanos' race "normal looking" purple dudes in contrast to Thanos' hulking appearance. The last option leaves no questions for audience members other then "who is that dude with the red hair?", leaves things open for Thanos to still be a freak due to his size, and even allows for a white Eros in later films, if the filmmakers choose, by having his appearance be somewhat tied to his powerset.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sold on that assessment myself. Yes, people might wonder about it, but if Gamora and Nebula, and every member of the Black Order can be referred to as Thanos' children while clearly not being his biological children, then I don't see where Eros couldn't just be his non-biological brother. Heck, if they wanted to they could even introduce Eros without actually having him be related to Thanos at all. I once argued that Lian Harper in the New 52 could have been introduced as unrelated biologically to Roy Harper. Same idea. Ego wasn't Star-Lord's father in the comics and Mantis wasn't his sister. Speaking of which, fun fact, in the mural of Ego's lovers, supposedly you can see a Mantis-like alien who may or may not be Mantis' mom, which would of course make Mantis
literally Star Lord's sister. James Gunn said not to necessarily read too much into it.
Just watched Venom tonight. Not great, but not too bad really. There's not much to it. Throwaway badguy, meh plot, but Venom himself? Awesome. Looks great, looks even better in action, pretty effectively spooky voice, and has more of a sense of humor than I was expecting, Venom himself was kinda a snarky d*ck. Kinda reminded me of Venom from the 90's cartoon in that regard. Perfectly serviceable rental movie. Worth watching just for Venom himself if you're a fan of the character. It made money and they're talking sequel so hopefully they cobble together a more interesting story to stick Venom in.
Absolutely. It would be a great movie to just have on the tv in the background when it eventually comes to basic cable tv, while you're doing something else. Since I rented it to watch on the tv, that's pretty much what it is. Any time Venom itself isn't on screen, you can pretty much zone out and miss nothing of consequence.
Wanted to respond to some minor things from SS' post.
Spoiler
Probably shouldn't even bother spoilering this but since it's a response to your spoiler tag I'll leave it... unlike Cap's beard, which can be taken care of in five minutes with a razor, it's a bit tougher to undye hair. You either have to redye it back to your natural hair color, shave your head and grow it back (wearing a wig while doing so), or maintain the existing dye. Given that BW's probably been busy doing Avengers stuff, I feel like she might just be maintaining it since she probably already has the supplies to do so from her time in hiding. I prefer red-headed BW too, but in-story it's not a huge deal.
As for Eros... again, my biggest argument wasn't even necessarily his skin color, since you can just make him purple... while I leaned on the skintone thing as a barrier, my main point is WHY SHOW HIM AT ALL. The scene in question is THANOS using the Gauntlet to show his homeworld in it's former beauty. By all accounts, Thanos and Eros HATE each other. I cannot for the life of me see Thanos taking the time to include Eros in his recreation of his world's "paradise" when in the comics one of his first acts was to take off Eros' mouth. He would not be shown in Thanos' idea of paradise.
But let's set that aside, say for whatever reason Thanos included Eros. Be he purple or flesh tone, Eros is in the film. He exists. And... then what? Ok, some people will take it as just a cameo and a nod and wink to fans, but now you have those who don't speculating about this character. Who is he, why is he in this scene, does he factor into the film's resolution in some way. Including Eros in a scene where he has no logical reason for being there is a textbook Chekhov's gun (IE: something that grabs audience attention because the language of film has indicated it's important), and for them to include him and then not bring him back in later would be problematic, all for the sake of a character who has nothing to do with the story (and would in fact derail the whole "lose what I love most" theme we see with Gamora because why doesn't thanos love his brother etc.) and who is super problematic anyway given certain comic depictions of the character.
It's one thing to include cameos like Howard or like Stan Lee, but the way those scenes are presented is not the same as what you're describing with Eros: shoehorning a red-headed dude in the background of a scene he should not be in so that the general audience mistakes it for something potentially important. There is enough in IW without Eros, he isn't needed, and at best he'd warrant a "oh, that's neat" if he *was* included somehow. If we had an actual flashback, seeing Thanos' former home life or his confrontation with his world's leadership, something that has narrative purpose... I can see Eros showing up in the background of a scene like that. But IN INFINITY WAR Ero's inclusion would have been a distraction that served no other purpose than fanwankary, and I think they made the right call leaving him out.
Oh, here's my late response to your late response:
I was being more hypothetical. When I talk about including Eros, I meant more in the nebulous sense of if the movie turned out a different way, or if Eros appeared in a later film. Not necessarily being included in the film we got.
Also, I once had a debate with a peer about whether non-comic fans would "accept" Vision. People seem chill with him In fact when Ultron came out it was literally the first thing I asked a buddy of mine: "what did you think of Vision?" Turned out he was fine with it mostly because he likes Paul Bettany. I was happy with that answer. But of course YMMV.
Anyway, by stroke of luck and snap of finger, I ended up researching stuff about Avengers Endgame, and it has been confirmed - fake scenes are being filmed to keep people from figuring out the plot ahead of time. Oh ho ho - we're in the End Game now!
But, on a more concrete note, wait til you hear this crazyness.
Spoiler
At one point, they were apparently considering pulling a Negan from Walking Dead. Yes, indeed, they were seriously considering ending on the snap itself and making us wait till part 2 to find out who did and didn't turn to dust. If that happened, I think the population of earth would have dropped in half in real life. Or I would have had a heart attack. Man I'm glad they didn't do that.
In any case, 3 more months till it comes out people!!!
Speaking of missing brothers,we never see Balder either.
And that one is a bit harder to handwave with skintone. 😉
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 29, 2019, 07:23:48 PM
Also, I once had a debate with a peer about whether non-comic fans would "accept" Vision. People seem chill with him In fact when Ultron came out it was literally the first thing I asked a buddy of mine: "what did you think of Vision?" Turned out he was fine with it mostly because he likes Paul Bettany. I was happy with that answer. But of course YMMV.
Wait, why wouldn't people like Vision? Vision rules.
(spoken as a big Vision fan)
Vision in the movie is... eh, good enough, because it's Vision. They obviously weren't going to use his comic origin.
Will be watching the Vision/Scarlet Witch series though.
I digress. I legit don't know what's not to accept about a robot ghost in the world of crazy junk that is Avengers?
EDIT: By the way, I heard about this Loki series an this Vision/Scarlet Witch series and I'm like what? But purposefully I try to not read too much of the info before the movies come out. The plots to these movies are pretty thin and predictable, so at least not knowing every character first is nice. Like when
Spoiler
Goliath is in Ant Man & Wasp.
Does that even need to be a spoiler? Was it even a secret? But when I saw it I was like, "Oh, awesome."
Once upon a Deadpool.Added scenes are funny,but most of it we saw in the trailers.Actually the extended Nickleback joke from the trailer wasnt in the film.
-Wait,was that...Brad Pitt?
Quote from: UnkoMan on January 31, 2019, 06:36:21 AM
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 29, 2019, 07:23:48 PM
Also, I once had a debate with a peer about whether non-comic fans would "accept" Vision. People seem chill with him In fact when Ultron came out it was literally the first thing I asked a buddy of mine: "what did you think of Vision?" Turned out he was fine with it mostly because he likes Paul Bettany. I was happy with that answer. But of course YMMV.
Wait, why wouldn't people like Vision? Vision rules.
I digress. I legit don't know what's not to accept about a robot ghost in the world of crazy junk that is Avengers?
Yeah, the argument was that Vision was apparently too "out there". My response was "Iron Man has a robot suit, Vision is a robot man." It's not like the casual movie going audience isn't keen to the idea of robots in movies. They've had decades to get used to them.
Oh, speaking of weird stuff from the comics: The Kree Supreme Intelligence. I just saw the other day what they did for it in the Captain Marvel movie. Wow, that might be the single biggest instance of the live action adaptations simplifying something comic book-esque from the source material. Though I did hear in an interview that they might do something a little more out there by the end of the movie that they didn't want to spoil.
QuoteGoliath is in Ant Man & Wasp.
Does that even need to be a spoiler? Was it even a secret? But when I saw it I was like, "Oh, awesome."
Bill Foster? Nah, his casting was announced a good year or so before the film came out, and he was introduced in one of the trailers. To the comic fans it's neat, but to the movie goers he's just some guy Hank used to work with, played by Laurence Fishbourne. It's kinda like asking "Hey is that Luis guy in the comics?" (he made a background cameo in the most recent Ant-Man comic when it showed Scott in prison) Not exactly Howard the Duck.
QuoteOnce upon a Deadpool.Added scenes are funny,but most of it we saw in the trailers.Actually the extended Nickleback joke from the trailer wasnt in the film.
-Wait,was that...Brad Pitt?
Yep, I'm a little disappointed the Nickelback bit got trimmed down in the final film. It was funny.
I put it on the other day for a friend of mine and just fast forwarded to the Fred Savage scenes and they had him absolutely laughing out loud because of his familiarity with the Princess Bride, but honestly? There's some funny stuff in there. Poking fun at the plot and people's criticisms of it, joking about Cable's ridiculously elaborate comic book backstory. The whole bit about Brad Pitt and Matt Damon was way funnier than it had any right to be. Honestly, I know I'm not alone in wishing there was a lot more of the new material. I'd say I'd probably have gone for a whole movie of just that, but that might be pushing it.
I'd heard it might have been partially intended as a proof of concept in case Disney wanted to do a PG-13 Deadpool, but apparently Disney said they'd keep it R.
Oh, speaking of the Deadpool movies, I'm profoundly disappointed that the Blu-Ray releases for Deadpool and Deadpool 2 didn't include any of the many brilliant web promo videos that was a huge part of the franchise's marketing. It's especially frustrating when they used that awesome Bob Ross parody in the menu sequence for Deadpool 2: The Super Duper Cut but don't include it on the disc in its entirely. And also frustrating since the home releases for The Dark Knight, Serenity, Ant-Man and probably a bunch of other movies included their web promos (The Anchorman DVD included some similar skits) . I kinda wonder if it's a rights issues thing. But I would have really appreciated having all of those promos in one place alongside the films themselves.
Fred: You got Cable? /Proceds to explain Cables backstory/
Deadpool: We... Got the time travel stuff.
Alright. Just finished Captain Marvel. It was enjoyable. Actually threw me a few curveballs I didn't expect.
Spoiler
Expecting her to be some sort of Kree soldier, and Skrull's nature of deception(and Mendelssohn penchant for being villains recently), I fully expected the Skrulls to be the badguys. Imagine my surprise when it was the Kree who were the bad guys.
And it was the Tesseract that gave her her powers... kinda wonder why it didn't give to anyone else? Was it as it was blending Mar-Vell and the Tesseract's together?
Thought all the tech throwbacks were funny.
Overall, she was pretty OP. But it made sense of it.
Yeah, I really liked Captain Marvel, too. Here is some fan speculation about her powers.
Spoiler
about the tesseract/her powers.
I think there was some interesting science stuff going on, like the tesseract was the power source for tye engine, but was housed in Mahr-Vell's ship. Maybe some sort of quantum entanglement device, so Carol's powers are linked directly to the infinity stone in it through quantum entanglement. So, while Vision was a vessel and expression of the Mind Stone, Captain Marvel is directly connected to the Space Stone, and wont be affected by Thanos.
She is pretty OP near the end, and this can't really continue, so she may get a massive depowering at the end of Endgame, or Monica will be the perfect age to step up and become Captain Marvel 2.
So I haven't seen it, but I have been following what's in the movie. So with that in mind...
Now that people are seeing the movie and talking about it....noone has anything to say about....
Spoiler
The cat scratching out Nick Fury's eye? I mean come on! We were JOKING about that when the trailer came out and it's the actual thing that happens in the movie. When I heard that I couldn't believe it. I kept thinking it was an elaborate internet hoax.
Also I had to look up what a "flerkin" was....some people online don't seem to grasp that not everyone has read the modern Captain Marvel comics. At first I thought it was some fan term the internet came up or something.
The Skrulls being good guys, and the Kree being the actual villains? Neat twist! Hats off to them for that. A reviewer I watch speculated, when the trailers were coming out, that the movie was withholding stuff from the trailers because there was some big twist in the movie....I'd say that qualifies. Kinda a different thing to do with the Skrulls. I'm curious if that will play into later movies.
Yeah, I've been hearing for a while how reliable Ben Mendelssohn is as an actor. Glad to see people enjoyed him in the movie.
Does anyone want to talk about Jude Law and Mar-Vell, or should we just avoid talking about it? I mean, I hate that MCU now makes movies we can't actually TALK about, but that's where we're at now.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on March 09, 2019, 12:19:51 AM
So I haven't seen it, but I have been following what's in the movie. So with that in mind...
Now that people are seeing the movie and talking about it....noone has anything to say about....
Spoiler
The cat scratching out Nick Fury's eye? I mean come on! We were JOKING about that when the trailer came out and it's the actual thing that happens in the movie. When I heard that I couldn't believe it. I kept thinking it was an elaborate internet hoax.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yeah, it was kind of weak. Guess that's what makes it rather legendary.
Spoiler
I'm not sure what you mean about "not talking about it" but on the subject, I was surprised at the bit of a curveball we got. For one, I assumed Law was to be Mar-Vell, mentoring Carol and knowing he was Kree. I actually looked online to see who Annette Benning would be playing. I heard the Supreme Intelligence, I heard some sort of mentor. And when I saw the name "Wendy" Lawson didn't ring a bell with me (initially) that SHE would be Mar-Vell and not Jude Law, who honestly, didn't know who he was until at least half way through the movie. Making Mar-Vell female was an interesting choice. I don't not like it. Additionally, I like what they did with the Supreme Intelligence. A lot actually. I hope to see more of Kree AND Skrulls in Phase 4. It's a whole other canvass to explore.
I actually guessed that one? :rolleyes:
SN: One of the first things I remembered from a comic book was Monica Rambeau's Captain Marvel back in the 80s. And the one thing about her that continued to stick out to my attention was her hair and I just thought it was even more endearing to see the girls they had in the role reflect that.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on March 09, 2019, 12:19:51 AM
So I haven't seen it, but I have been following what's in the movie. So with that in mind...
Now that people are seeing the movie and talking about it....noone has anything to say about....
Spoiler
The cat scratching out Nick Fury's eye? I mean come on! We were JOKING about that when the trailer came out and it's the actual thing that happens in the movie. When I heard that I couldn't believe it. I kept thinking it was an elaborate internet hoax.
Also I had to look up what a "flerkin" was....some people online don't seem to grasp that not everyone has read the modern Captain Marvel comics. At first I thought it was some fan term the internet came up or something.
The Skrulls being good guys, and the Kree being the actual villains? Neat twist! Hats off to them for that. A reviewer I watch speculated, when the trailers were coming out, that the movie was withholding stuff from the trailers because there was some big twist in the movie....I'd say that qualifies. Kinda a different thing to do with the Skrulls. I'm curious if that will play into later movies.
Yeah, I've been hearing for a while how reliable Ben Mendelssohn is as an actor. Glad to see people enjoyed him in the movie.
Does anyone want to talk about Jude Law and Mar-Vell, or should we just avoid talking about it? I mean, I hate that MCU now makes movies we can't actually TALK about, but that's where we're at now.
I'm sorry, but considering Zemo, Strucker, Hitler, and all the other enemies Fury has had, this is stupid.
I know, this Fury didn't fight these characters, but still... it's like deciding that Orko from
Masters of the Universe or Java from
Metamorpho is an evil mastermind.
Or revealing that Scrapy Doo is the villain of...Ok,Im not going there.
Oddly for this franchise,Nick Fury doesnt have an evil counterpart.
Hm,annoying sidekick turning into a villain...there has got to be more examples...I mean there are lists,but Im not going to click 16 times to see the whole list.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on March 09, 2019, 09:23:40 AM
Spoiler
I'm not sure what you mean about "not talking about it" but on the subject, I was surprised at the bit of a curveball we got. For one, I assumed Law was to be Mar-Vell, mentoring Carol and knowing he was Kree. I actually looked online to see who Annette Benning would be playing. I heard the Supreme Intelligence, I heard some sort of mentor. And when I saw the name "Wendy" Lawson didn't ring a bell with me (initially) that SHE would be Mar-Vell and not Jude Law, who honestly, didn't know who he was until at least half way through the movie. Making Mar-Vell female was an interesting choice. I don't not like it. Additionally, I like what they did with the Supreme Intelligence. A lot actually. I hope to see more of Kree AND Skrulls in Phase 4. It's a whole other canvass to explore.
Spoiler
The movie's stirred up a bunch of controversy online and, well, I've heard claim it was the filmakers trolling a portion of the audience who....hate women I guess? Except it's not, it's just them not using the traditional Mar-Vell. I gotta admit, I'm a bit disappointed. Marvel spent the better part of a year stirring speculation over who Jude Law was playing, so they could surprise people by 1. having Law be the villain, Yon Rogg, which was of course spoiled by a crapload of merch, and 2. Reveal the real Marvell to be an older woman. Ok. I woulda preferred they make her a different character and keep Law Mar-Vell myself. I mean, Jude Law's a rather good choice to play Vell, particularly if you're NOT selling a movie franchise off his back (you'd probably get a younger actor in that case) and I don't think anyone was expecting him to be the main character, it's Carol Danvers' movie. But like the Mandarin, this seems like a bit of a missed opportunity.
Funny thing, before I heard THAT, I learned that Benning was playing the Supreme Intelligence. That one they did put out there before the movie came out. Having it take someone else's form isn't a bad idea (Beast Wars did it!) but I gotta admit, I was hoping for the big green head in the jar. Even Arnim Zola got more of an homage to the comics, and then there's this amazing concept art (https://www.slashfilm.com/arnim-zola-concept-art-ant-man/). I was hoping the SI would get a similar treatment. Unless that actually does appear in the movie, feel free to correct me.
Mind you, I thought Gemma Chan as Minn-Erva (based on Captain Marvel villain Doctor Minerva) was supposed to be the villain, so what do I know?
Here's a fun bit. Ben Mendelsohn plays Talos the Untamed. he was created by Peter David as something of a underdog Skrull in Incredible Hulk that you would be sympatheticto (he was a Skrull who could not shape-shift). PAD assumed he was the main villain of the film. Looks like the filmakers, whether intentionally or not, actually kinda reflected the source material more than he was expecting.
As for that darn cat. It doesn't make any fruity toot tooty sense. I had Winter Solder on tv last night and I saw the scene where Nick Fury says "The last time I trusted someone, I lost an eye." Except in that scene Cap's chewing Fury out for not letting him in on what his ulterior motive was for that op on the boat. Later Cap and him debate freedom versus security and Fury says "Shield takes the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be." It's one of the themes of the movie. If the cat scratched his eye out, why would he bring it up during a debate with Cap about such things?
It reminds me of when Georgie Porgie did the prequels. You couldn't have gotten some guy with a notepad to take a few hours and watch the movies and write down everything that might be relevant to the backstory? Hell, I do that kind of thing when I'm posting on this message board, and that's not even my job.
Then again, In Iron Man Coulson claimed they were "working on" a shorter name for Shield, yet we're later told Peggy Carter named the organization Shield as a reference to Cap. Retcons! Another thing brought over from the comic experience.
...
...
...
Funny thing, I was going to make a joke about what else they could bring over, and was going to use the C-List Cannon Fodder trope, but they already did that in Thor Ragnarok soo.... I don't know, the next Captain America will be about Jack Monroe and he'll have big shoulder pads and pouches and big guns and...no they did Cable in DP2 already. Ummm....zombies?
[EDIT] WHOAH, I didn't hear about this before: "Soh-Larr is a Kree spy investigating the Skulls. In the comics, he was the father of the first Kree-Skrull hybrid, Dorrek Supreme."
The two above characters are ancestors to Hulkling of the Young Avengers, aka Dorrek VIII. Coincidence? Maybe. It's a pretty elaborate family tree that includes a Skrull Emperor, and Talos, which might be why they referenced him. And yet, of all the characters in that family tree, they chose one whose ONLY appearance is in a Hulkling story. Maybe it's their way to ---screw it
HULKLING CONFIRMED!!one one one :P
QuoteJava from Metamorpho is an evil mastermind.
Did that one really happen?
Sadly, Sith Lord Jar Jar is not canon yet, last I checked.
QuoteOddly for this franchise,Nick Fury doesnt have an evil counterpart.
Some could argue Robert Redford from Winter Soldier was one. Little mundane compared to the comics, but eh.
QuoteHm,annoying sidekick turning into a villain...there has got to be more examples...
Does it have to be an change for an adaptation? Because otherwise I can think of a few more.
Darth Jar-Jar... you have to wonder why that hasn't happened yet.
Give Filoni a few years. It took him 3 seasons to get to Ahsoka as a Sith and 4 to get to Darth Maul with robot legs. The very last arc of Clone Wars featured a Sith version of Yoda.
Well,there is a Young Avengers film in the works,so this might be related...
Spoiler
I thought the cat thing was funny, and I'm ok with just rolling with it tbh. For the big reveal of how Fury lost his eye to be such a mundane stupid thing... It's actually a pretty good twist IMHO. As for his speech to Cap in WS... I'd imagine he's been dropping fake hints about how he lost that eye for so long at this point that using it to shut down an argument from Cap was probably second nature. And... in a way, it *was* a result or trusting something he shouldn't have. If Fury weren't so gaga over the stupid cat monster (that he was warned about REPEATEDLY I might add) and insisted on taking it along despite several warnings, it wouldn't have scratched out his eye.
As for female Mar Vell... I've heard a different accounts on that, TBH. I was reading an interview with Feige where he said they cast Annette Benning as the Supreme Intelligence early on, but weren't sure how to cast Mar-Vell... it was an important role, but one without much to do. He said it was Annette who suggested merging the two roles together (presumably to give herself more to do), and they ran with it and came up with the "person you respect most thing" at that point.
Spoiler
Actually, you might be right about Fury just spouting B.S. about the eye.
In the tie-in comic to the Edward Norton Incredible Hulk, Fury sits at a bar with Banner (Banner not knowing who he is yet) and when asked how he lost his eye, he simply answers "The war." the nice thing about that exchange is since Banner doesn't know who he is, there's nothing to say Fury wasn't lying.
Plus, as I mentioned a while back, Fury is the guy who exploited Coulson's death to get the Avengers to learn to work together.
I still don't like it tone wise because it doesn't feel like it meshes with what Winter Soldier was going for.
QuoteWell,there is a Young Avengers film in the works,so this might be related...
If all the information I've seen and heard pans out the way I'm expecting it to, I'm going to be giddy as a schoolgirl in about a month.
Agent Coulson lashes against "dinosaurs" who dont like the movie. :lol:
Holy funt,is Kathleen Kennedy your PR manager now?
You could have went with : Give the movie a chance,you might be surprised.Or anything else.
This was something I was telling a friend of mine on his FB page about the movie. He made a few good points, but another thing that stuck out to me was this:
Spoiler
While I agree with a lot of what you said, very much so, one thing that kinda stuck out to me was that I appreciated how it didn't just fill gaps between Infinity War, but it also seemed like a prequel of sorts to the entire franchise.
One thing that always struck odd to me was when I watched The Avengers over the weekend, Fury was saying "I wanted all the worlds" to see the Avengers kick arse. Now I get they were just invaded by aliens but that was just a one off thing. It could have just been an army Loki found for all he knew. But now, this movie gives that comment more context. He now knows about the Kree and Skrulls and whole galactic civilizations and it makes more sense that he'd be working on a plan for earth to have their own mightiest heroes to protect against all the "worlds" we now know he knows exist. And it makes sense for him to have been working on this plan well before 2007 and Iron Monger wanting to hostile takeover Stark Enterprises.
Also makes sense using "Avenger" for the title of his plan as well. That also seemed random. Yes, we know that's who they are but in the grand scheme of things it didn't make sense. X-Men are Xavier's men. The Fantastic Four are Four led by the one called Mr. Fantastic. But what were the Avengers avenging when there was no one and no threat to the world? Now we see the impression Captain Marvel made not just on him personally but big-picture wise as well. For someone who was a hero that could protect the Earth to have also gone by the name "Avenger", I can see how he adopts that name for his plan. Marvel was the inspiration for a "Protector Initiative" and he needed a group to show the Chitauri and Kree and Skrulls and others we have our Protectors like Marvel would have been. So he says like Marvel I'll call it the "Avenger Initiative".
QuoteAgent Coulson lashes against "dinosaurs" who dont like the movie. :lol:
Holy funt,is Kathleen Kennedy your PR manager now?
You could have went with : Give the movie a chance,you might be surprised.Or anything else.
Yeah, I've never understood why comic creators, people working on films, and people working on video games, these days (not to say it didn't happen in the past, I'm sure it did) can't just say "Give the movie a chance,you might be surprised." or "Sorry you're not enjoying the current run. If you stick with us, hopefully the upcoming issues will be more to your liking." That's money they could be making.
Spoiler
QuoteOne thing that always struck odd to me was when I watched The Avengers over the weekend, Fury was saying "I wanted all the worlds" to see the Avengers kick arse. Now I get they were just invaded by aliens but that was just a one off thing. It could have just been an army Loki found for all he knew. But now, this movie gives that comment more context. He now knows about the Kree and Skrulls and whole galactic civilizations and it makes more sense that he'd be working on a plan for earth to have their own mightiest heroes to protect against all the "worlds" we now know he knows exist. And it makes sense for him to have been working on this plan well before 2007 and Iron Monger wanting to hostile takeover Stark Enterprises.
There was also Thor. He might not have met Thor himself during the events of Thor's first movie, but there were others who worked under him who did, and he met with Selvig about the Tesseract.
Spoiler
SHIELD was dealing with aliens for awhile before IM1. AoS season 1 had all kinds of references to alien tech being secured by SHIELD, and it's a kree body (maybe one from the events of CM) that was used to save Coulson.
Guess who's back, back again, James Gunn's back, tell yo' friends!
Its not really a new discovery for me,but people really hated Amazing Spiderman duology.
To each his own,but complaining about being unfaitful to the comics?Homecoming was even worst in that regard.
Yeah, I never got that. One of the big gripes was he was a jerk when he first got his powers and used it to show up Flash at BBall... but like, OG Peter literally went on talk shows and did everything he could to cash in on his powers before Ben's death.
Really though, I think it mainly comes down to the personality of the actor and how close it "feels" to Spider-Man. For me, Maguire was an ok Peter, but an awful SM... people will defend the fact that he made quips, but the delivery is so bad and forced he might as well be silent the whole time. Garfield was the opposite end of the spectrum, where he often went too far on the arrogant to-talky end, but I was ok with it because he felt more real and less of a nerd caricature. But then, I'm also the crazy dude who hates SM2 more than SM3, and I do get that Garfield's SM tended to be grating for people.
Holland seems to fit in a nice sweet spot in the center, where he DOES talk a lot, but it's in the whole "I'm talking because I'm actually kinda freaking out and this is my coping mechanism" flavor that some of the best Spider-Man writing often has.
ASM made Peter a sort of cool loser skater and he doesnt really get bulied.And makes his motivation revenge,so that changes the character.But at least its a motivation.As opposed to Homecoming which was Batman Beyond lite.
Does Holland get bullied though? Like, yeah, we have weenie Flash, but you get the sense that no one else takes that seriously. Holland's Peter has a whole social circle: Dan... I mean, Ned, Michelle, Liz, etc. The biggest issue we see him deal with is the fallout from his constant absence.
For real though, Flash is 100% my biggest issue with the MCU version. Michelle is fun, Ned is fine even though I wish they'd have used Danke instead of Ned, etc. But Flash is just... A putz. They were trying to make him a more "modern" bully, but in an age where cyber bullying and abuse is SUCH a big deal, MCU Flash just calls Peter names sometimes.
Principal problem there is Peter.Hes not Peter,hes not Spiderman,hes Tony Stark Jr.
Homecoming could even kill Uncle Ben.Hell,Uncle Ben is NEVER mentioned.
Also,for all that talk about consequences,he never suffers any consequences.Except when he loses the suit.But he gets it back.
Eh. Still a better Spider-Man than the two Andrew Garfield movies. Turning the Green Goblin into a hacker was lame, for one thing. (We still haven't had a proper onscreen GG; Dafoe's characterization was dead on, but the costume was Green Goblin as a bad Iron Man knockoff.....)
A perfect on-screen Peter would be a cross between the McGuire and Holland versions, with very little taken from Garfield.
Ok,just for fun,outside of names,what does Homecoming share with comics?
The same thing Fant4stic does? :D
He lifts a heavy thing! :D
And hes a rich kid who goes to private school and nothing bad really happens to him.Parker luck,indeed.
Avengers Endgame has been confirmed to be 3 hours long.
Lord help us all. We're all going to have to pee so bad when the movie's over.
So the next franchise to be launched outside of the Infinity Saga has been announced to be THE ETERNALS.
Most casual fans won't recognize them, just like the Guardians of the Galaxy.
Readily I can recognize at least one, which was speculated and now announced to be the feature character, Angelina Jolie as Sersi.
Couple of other tidbits of news is Kumil Nanjani is in talks to also star, but the male lead is said to be Ikaris and rumor has it they are looking for an "openly gay actor" to play the character. Now, here's the rub. Couple of things actually. Are they looking for an openly gay actor to play a straight character, which I suppose is fairly normal at this point. Or are they looking for an openly gay actor to play an openly gay character, which if you ask me, would be kind of limiting. If it's the character they want to be openly gay, do they really need an openly gay actor since... it's acting? But honestly, if they can find a suitable actor to portray a character that I know next to little about, what do I care. And if I don't, I can't imagine general audiences would be that bothered about it. Comic fans however....
But then there's the basis of the character. Apparently he got his name that he took after his son, Icarus who died. And with that, he also had a wife, which would suggest the character is straight.
But then there's speculation that this gay character would be Hercules as well.
Most casual fans didnt recognize Inhumans either...so it mostly depends on the execution.
The Eternals? Honestly........meh. They must be aiming for the low-hanging fruit of "what's not tied up in licensed movie rights and what can we make the most changes to so that it will fit however we want with the least amount of people sceaming?". By my quick count (via Wikipedia) there's been less than 50 issues of their title, total.
Movie franchise I'd like to see before we get down to the Eternals:
The Fantastic Four (if Disney would ever get their heads unlodged & figure out they would make way more in profits than it would cost to get the rights back)
Namor (tied up in above)
Silver Surfer (tied up in above)
The Defenders (seriously doubt that'll ever happen)
The Invaders (probably tied up enough in the FF rights)
The Inhumans (probably a dead property since they killed it on TV)
Daredevil (doubtful since it was "covered" on Netflix)
Powerman/Iron Fist (see Netflix reason)
Alpha Flight (probably tied up in the X-Men rights)
Excalibur (also tied up in X-Men rights ... Although, why can't we get a Capt Britain & Meggan movie ...... oh, yeah, because enough American audiences wouldn't care enough about a British hero)
Deathlok
Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew)
Moon Knight (wasn't that on Netflix also?)
Nova (Richard Rider)
She-Hulk (I think the Byrne title format could work well)
Power Pack (maybe)
Not really holding my breath for any of those, although from what I read/remember, Power Pack has the best chance out of all of them.
They got FF and X-men back.Namor...I think its with Universal,or did they got him back or its some weird deal like with Hulk solo movies...there is something.
Oh and you mentioned Alpha Flight and Excalibur...expect somebody to show up and explain how thats tottaly crazy. :rolleyes:
I cant say if American audience would care for Captain Britain,but if you made is as bland and unoffensive as possible you could still make a killing in China.And you dont have Winnie the Pooh in the movie,thats the most important part. 🙂
They're also moving forward with a Black Widow movie. They've got screenwriters, a director, and some co-stars cast, so that's apparently happening.
They've also working on Shang-Chi. That one might be tricky... If Marvel's able to, I'd personally try to get Iron Fist, Colleen Wing, ect into that one because, well, that just seems like a good idea. On the other hand, it could work out in a similar way to Black Panther. Crazy Rich Asians with superheroes? Hmm...
I'd be interested in all of the ones Panther-Gunn mentioned....
QuoteDeathlok
Showed up in Agents of Shield quite a bit, so I'm not sure if they'd do it as a movie. They did create a new character to be Deathlok though, instead of the comic versions.
QuoteMoon Knight (wasn't that on Netflix also?)
I double checked this on Wikipedia: [EDIT] I originally said Netflix for some reason]
-Namedropped in Blade: The Series (I remembered that one)
-GotG's James Gunn has publicly said he pitched a Moon Knight to Marvel Studios.
-They had a few plans years ago for a Moon Knight tv series that fell through. I vaguely recall them talking about doing Moon Knight in the Netflix stuff. Apparently Marvel Studio's Kevin Feige said last year they plan to eventually have Moon Knight appear in the MCU.
-He's appeared in the current batch of cartoons, specifically Avengers Assemble. As a policy Marvel tends to avoid using characters in those shows that would be seen as "promoting" properties Fox owned the rights to (hence Wolverine and the Thing only appeared in early seasons....though Mesmero did appear much later). So they probably consider Moon Knight one of "their" characters. This policy, I imagine, will be reversed in the coming years now that Disney has bought the Fox stuff back.
QuoteNova (Richard Rider)
I'm actually expecting Nova to make into the MCU in the future (as a actual superhero and not simply the Nova Corps)
I did have concerns about how they reconciled the comics version with the non-powered Space Cops from GotG but 1. We know from Infinity War that Thanos went down to Xander to curb-stomp them and get Ronan's Infinity Stone. I'm expecting us to learn more about that in a later film (or is it hoping?) and a superpowered Nova could spin out of the aftermath of that. And 2. The GotG cartoon reconciled the two versions by using a tweaked version of the backstory from the Sam Alexander version. Speaking of which, sorry to say, but I would guess it'd be Sam rather than Richie. I'm personally expecting that when we get the Young Avengers they'll be a combination of the Allen Heinberg/Jim Cheung lineup and the modern incarnation of the Champions. So you'll have say Hulkling, maybe the Teen Vision, but also Ms. Marvel, Sam, ect. Feige has said they plan to add Kamala Khan in the future and I'd guess (while you could add her to a Captain Marvel sequel) they'd probably consider a teen team movie less of a gamble than a solo outing (it's worked out elsewhere: Into the Spider-Verse, Runaways, Cloak and Dagger, ect)
QuoteShe-Hulk (I think the Byrne title format could work well)
I've actually been saying for a while I'm surprised they haven't done She-Hulk. I know Marvel hates to have to pay Universal for Hulk stuff (side note - the two Hulk movies just came back to Netflix in some territories so maybe the Edward Norton Hulk leaving Netflix last year wasn't part of the Disney Purge, as I originally thought) but regardless She-Hulk kinda felt like a really obvious one to me. She's a pretty well known Marvel character who isn't tied up in the X-Men stuff, and you can have some fun with the character. I think they've have to figure out how to do the character (CGI like Hulk and Thanos? Green makeup like Drax and Gamorra? Partial CGI like Mantis?) And that might be what's held it back.
QuotePower Pack (maybe)
Double checking Wikipedia, that one was talked about in 2017 as part of MCU and something similar to Spy Kids. I'd personally bet good money on that going the standalone animated movie route (like Big Hero Six and Into The Spider-Verse). Child actors aging too fast has always been a concern in the filmaking industries and child labor laws on how many hours you can make child actors work might be a concern with the conveyor belt well-oiled machine that is the MCU. Well that or they age the kids up to teenagers and have them played by 20-somethings (which admittedly, they are very much older in the 616 comics, but in an adaptation, it would kinda undercut the whole appeal of Power Pack)
Personally I'm still hoping for Thunderbolts in the future. Let's also not forgot Disney's really trying to make MCU spinoff shows on their streaming service a thing (and actual characters from the films at that: Falcon, Loki, Scarlet Witch, Vision...) so that opens a lot of opportunities.
They rushed and ruined Inhumans, so I guess Eternals is trying to make up for that? Sweep one under the rug, grab the other.
Is Sersi going to join the Avengers?
I liked the Inhumans a bit more, but whatever. I'm down for the ride to see what they do in the movies. Change them up, hit or miss, whatever.
(Though I'm still secretly hoping Dr. Strange becomes less "Tony Stark" and more "actually cool, powerful, master of the mystic arts." I would also be way down for an actual Defenders at some point [Why wasn't that Netflix show called Heroes for Hire??], especially if they brought in Tessa Thompson's Valkyrie.)
I really hope Black Widow is just a super dope spy movie. It could be so good.
Shang-Chi made as error correction to Iron Fist could be good too, I agree. Just make a cool Kung Fu movie.
I guess I've been repeating this sentiment. Just make cool movies, and don't worry about making "super hero movies" that tie in everywhere.
I would still totally watch a She Hulk show that was basically Ally McBeal with the occasional super fight.
I don't think Eternals/Inhumans is a fair comparison. Eternals was apparently a choice made in house by Marvel Studios, and seems to fall into the same category as GotG... IE: characters fans kinda know about that have some history in the comics to draw from, but with a lack of hardcore fan attachment that allows filmmakers to do their own thing with the material. Inhumans... well, I had a whole rant written up about THAT mess, but I've expressed that frustration enough by now. In short it was the result of some executive meddling rather than creative desire, and boy did it show.
Yeah...only Eternal are even more obscure then Inhumans.And nobody gave a cr@p about them.
It could work with a good execution,but its probably going to be another attempt at finding X-men replacements.
BTW,now that James Gunn is back,can we get that Thunderbolts movie he proposed?
Amazing, spectacular Endgame!
I could see the movie as always in avant and I thought it was the best!
Endgame♥x3000! :thumbup:
I see it Sunday. That said, Given how fast tickets are sold out, I feel like spoilers should be used for at least a couple weeks. That said, I have a theory that I'm gonna spoiler JIC (since part of it is based on information not everyone is tied into) so.
Spoiler
I'm pretty sure going in that Quicksilver's in there somewhere. We know there's time shenanigans, Ultron was in one of the trailers, and there were rumors of Aaron Taylor Johnson being on set back when it was being filmed (he's said that's not true, but that means nothing for a film where "the title wasn't said in Infinity War".
Moreover, and this is something as a figure guy I know... we're getting figures of pretty much every MCU character that was ever glossed over (I'm talking Luis from Ant-man, Peggy Carter from CA1, and Michelle/MJ from Homecoming)... EXCEPT Quicksilver. That's not because of rights issues (there's a comic Magneto, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 3 pack coming) so... why is he SPECIFICALLY being snubbed? Well... there's ~2 Endgame figures that haven't been revealed yet. If he's in there in a more significant capacity than "background character" it makes sense to keep it hush hush... and they have the "rights issues" to hide behind so questions don't get asked.
My theory is that among the ones sacrificing themselves will be Hawkeye/Ronin, and in doing so will somehow swap places with Quicksilver. They've implied pretty heavily with his Emo-ness in the trailers that the Bartons were snapped, so Clint has plenty of reason to sacrifice himself if it means bringing them back. And Quicksilver, like Wanda, is powered by one of the stones. If Pietro's resurrection would turn the tide, even if it meant his own death as a trade off, Clint would do it.
All I get answer is spoiler or something very close.
Just go see it!
So I just saw it. And while I liked this VERY much more than Infinity War, thought this was quite the epic bow to put on the entire saga.
But...
I can't help but to have a TON of questions, since they decided to mess with the one thing that causes headaches in film history.
Spoiler
TIME TRAVEL!
This was pretty much Time Bandits with superheroes. And all the perils that comes with time travel in film(they literally listed like all of them! :lol:).
So their big plan was to use the Quantum Realm to manipulate time to go back and get all the stones before Thanos gets them and then bring them back like nothing happened... But everything did happen.
First of all, how did they get the Mind Stone back in the scepter, the Reality Stone back in Jane and the Space Stone back in the Tesseract? I suppose he could have put the Power Stone back in the Orb, but is Captain America just going to walk up to the Red Skull and say "hey we don't need this anymore"? I suppose the Time Stone is easy.
But let's say Captain America(Steve Rodgers) puts all the stones back where they came from. Take the Space Stone back to the base, it ends up on Mar-Vell's lab, Fury gets it, gives it to the Flerken, who spits it out for S.H.I.E.L.D. who plays with it for the next fifteen years until Loki takes it, then the Avengers get it, then Loki gets it back and uses it....
So Thor doesn't take him back to Asgard. He survives and if he is not imprisoned, does he help Thor fight Malekith? And if he's not there, how does this affect Thor 3 too? Of course he's not there in Thor 3 and Thanos can't take it from him in Infinity War, even if he were alive, which he's not, so I suppose that doesn't matter.
And so.... if Thanos is dead... What does this do for Guardians of the Galaxy? Thanos is dead. Does he send Ronan to go after the Orb? If that doesn't happen, do the Guardians of the Galaxy have a reason to even exist now? What about Gamora? Did she stay in the present(her future)? Does she go back? Does she eventually meet Quill?
But wait a minute...
Let's assume ALL of the stones go back to all their same spots.... And Thanos is killed when he goes to the future. But when all the stones go back and time is still a constant Thanos' role is still the same. He still sends Loki to get the Tesseract(by giving him the Mind Stone(still haven't figured out why he would ever do that to begin with(but whatever, we'll go with it))) and he still sends Ronan to get the Power Stone.... And the only way he goes to the future is because he found Nebula, who was there to get the Power Stone, but if the Power Stone is back and technically she wasn't there, Thanos doesn't capture her, he doesn't send Past-Nebula back in place of Present-Nebula and he doesn't come to the Future/Present because he would just be on the same path that he was on from the beginning... since ALL the stones are back where they were... right?
So the Time Stone was easy. He just goes back to the Ancient One and says "here you go thanks". Assuming he gets the Mind Stone back into the Scepter(don't know how), when does this happen again? Loki has it, then Black Widow has it, then S.H.I.E.L.D./Hydra has it. But Present-Steve gets it from them and he runs into Past-Steve, who he puts to sleep and then Present-Steve gives it to Present-Ant-Man. But when does Future-Steve gives it back to Loki/S.H.I.E.L.D./Hydra/Past-Steve/Present-Ant-Man. Also, why wouldn't Past-Steve wake up and tell everyone "Yo! Some guy who was me stole the Scepter!" And does anyone not care that that happened?
And everything went well and the Avengers save the world, the universe, Captain America puts all the stones back. But Steve decides to not come back. He goes back to Peggy. So he just lives his life and becomes Mr. Mom for the next 80 years? Who's shield did he steal?
Wait... if all the stones go back, Thanos just gets all the stones again... but the Space Stone, which is (Norse)God knows where. And if he can't get stones then he doesn't decimate the universe and if he doesn't do that then none of Infinity War happens. And if none of Infinity War happens then none of Endgame happens. And if none of Endgame happens then Steven not only doesn't go back, he doesn't have to go back and couldn't even if he wanted to. Which means he doesn't get to grow old with Peggy, steal someone's shield and gives the shield to Sam. None of that can happen because the Space stone is in the wind.
And if the Space Stone is in the wind as of 2012.... How in the hell do we even watch this movie?
And why is Ned still in high school?
I'm sure there are things I'm missing. Maybe things wrapped up neater than I'm thinking. Maybe things didn't and there are things that I didn't even catch. But this is the problem with time travel as a plot device. Conceptually it just causes problems. Not just for a movie plot device, but morally speaking should you do it? The problem is everything HAS to happen the way it happens for everything else TO happen. Because if it doesn't then it's pretty much removing the bottom block of Jenga.
Jeez, the more I think about this the sillier it gets. I mean, it was fun to watch, but it's making less and less sense to me.
Am I the only one? I gotta be missing something, right?
Saw it. Not the best Marvel movie, but still pretty darn good.
I saw it today. Quite the movie. It may have 3 hours long, but it didn't feel like it, it went by without me even noticing.
Spoiler
QuoteTIME TRAVEL!
To quote Jeff Daniels in Looper: This time travel *&^& frys yer brain like an egg!
To quote Bruce Willis in a deleted scene in Looper: Look, I don't wanna talk about time travel %^&* cuz then I'm gonna be getting out straws and we're going to be talking about this all day [starts laying out visual aids...]
As soon as Thanos and past-Nebula started highjacking the Avengers time-travel shenanaghens I knew this was going to get convoluted.
Yeah, Captain America going back by himself and just putting everything back is just a bit too convenient. I mean, if everything that happened still happened, then 1) What happened to Loki? 2) Doesn't this mean Cap learned Bucky is still alive before the events of the Winter Soldier? Assuming he believed Future-Cap?
It's funny too, because during the final act, Thanos posits that he should wipe out life again but this time wipe all memory of the event so something like this won't happen again. Something like that could have cleaned up the time travel fallout (or lack thereof) but apparently they didn't go that route? I think the Legends of Tomorrow need to show up and start using the Flashy-Thing on some folks! :P
QuoteWhat about Gamora? Did she stay in the present(her future)?
I don't think we saw Gamora after she hit Starlord and wandered off with Nebula. Was that past-Nebula or Future-Nebula? Because Future-Nebula shot Past Nebula.) In any case, if all of Thanos' forces did die, then that means Past-Nebula died too, right? So if Past-Nebula died, then how could Future-Nebula help the Avengers and--Oh No I've Gone Cross-Eyed! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8w95xIdH4o)
[EDIT] Oh, here's one I forgot to mention. Assuming we're going on Daniel Faraday from Lost "What Happened, Happened" logic, And I was totally thinking this during this part in the movie, what if Ant-Man giving Past-Tony that mini-heart attack led to Tony's PTSD in Iron Man 3? That'd be kinda messed up, right?
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/time-travel-5c1133.jpg)
Going back to Gamora... (I'm do you one better....WHEN is Gamora?) if Gamora got wiped out, then all future Gamora appearances didn't happen? The fact That Star Lord was searching for Gamora on the computer, without the movie showing us (or Quill) the results, was surely intentional to leave the door open for Guardians 3. Speaking of....
It sure was a curveball recasting Chris Hemsworth as Volstagg! :P But no, seriously, fat drunken Thor, well that was a thing. I admit I did laugh, but man, anyone who hated the more comedy-orientated turn Hemsworth's Thor has taken (looking at you, Benton) are going to HATE this take on Thor.
QuoteAnd why is Ned still in high school?
I'm assuming all of Peter's classmates got dusted and then came back because of the stones. Otherwise it makes no sense and we're firmly in X-Men territory at this point. I mean, 5 years passed. Those five years still happened at the end of the movie. Cassie is five years older and played by another actress. So if every single classmate of Peter's is still about the same age as Peter in Far From Home in the trailers, then either Marvel's doing some more misleading marketing (why hello there, Mark Ruffulo as the Hulk!) or every single one of them got dusted and then came back (Or, as some suggested, Far from Home takes place before Infinity War). On that note, man, the whole "who does and doesn't get dusted" thing sure is arbitrary, right? A few months back I was thinking about whether or not the Red Skull would be dusted...
Also, what was Captain Marvel doing for most of the movie anyway?
And apparently, in universe, superhero origins stopped happening on Earth for 5 solid years.....
OR DID THEY? Oh, for those wondering about post credits scenes....
Spoiler
There aren't any. There's just an audio clip from an earlier movie that connects to something/someone important in the flick. Apparently some theater chains actually put out signs saying there's isn't a PCS and asking everyone to just leave when they credits happen so they can start cleaning up the aisles.
I definitely enjoyed it. One things for sure though, all eyes are Marvel Studios to see what they're going to do next.
My thoughts on Endgame:
Spoiler
Everyone was laughing whenever they showed Thor's gut. Not just the first time, but every single time. Didn't like that they essentially turned him into The Dude.
Needed more Captain Marvel. And Brie Larson did not look good with the shorter hair.
I absolutely hated what they did to Banner/The Hulk. First the Hulk turns into a spineless coward in Infinity War, and then this?!
They more or less crapped on the Iron Man franchise: Tony died, Black Widow (who was introduced in Iron Man 2) died, and Vision (who Tony helped create) stayed dead from Infinity War.
Favorite part of the movie was Cap beating the snot out of Thanos using the shield and Mjolnir....then they just had to go there and have Thanos break the shield.
Was cool seeing Pepper armor up. So....Rescue or...Iron Woman?
Once everyone was resurrected (except Vision, who wasn't taken out by the Infinity Gauntlet, and Black Widow, who can't be resurrected, apparently) , the Guardians weren't really used enough.
Stan's cameo was cool. If I remember right, that was actually what his hair looked like back in 1970!
If this was the last film for a lot of the actors, it was a great ending for Captain America. But I didn't like seeing him hand the shield off to Falcon. Granted, I know Bucky wouldn't have wanted it, but I'm not a fan of Falcon as Cap, and lets face it: Falcon was defeated by Ant-Man. Movie Falcon is a wuss.
Spoiler
QuoteEveryone was laughing whenever they showed Thor's gut. Not just the first time, but every single time. Didn't like that they essentially turned him into The Dude.
Tony even called him "Big Lebowski". I'm of mixed feelings on it, just like I was for the last two movies of Thor being, basically, Hercules or the Brave and the Bold version of Aquaman (who pretty much is the Marvel Hercules). I mean, yeah, some of it's funny, but at times it almost doesn't even feel like the same character.
I really hope Thor's current look doesn't carry over to GotG Vol. 3. The beer gut's got to go and I wasn't loving the hair.
Anyway, I had a very enthusiastic crowd at the theater. I'm pretty sure people laughed at Beer Gut Thor, they cheered when Black Panther came through the portal. They clapped when the credits came up with Cap's nice sendoff.
QuoteNeeded more Captain Marvel. And Brie Larson did not look good with the shorter hair.
Yeah, I actually agree with both of these comments. It's kinda cool that they gave Carol the modern comic hair, but it just didn't look as good in live action. I felt the same way whenever they tried to give Hugh Jackman the Wolverine hair from the comics and cartoons.
I didn't see Captain Marvel so I was kinda hoping this movie would warm me up to her, but she wasn't really in it that much. She was suitably powerful, I'll give them that, but there wasn't much in the way of character moments or a role in the plot. Now I get why they did that, this is supposed to be a celebration or "greatest hits" highlight reel for the various characters we've met over the years, and she only debuted about a month or two ago, so yeah. I dunno. It felt a bit tacked on or phoned in. I hear that the scene at the base at the beginning of the movie with her was actually the first thing she filmed. Makes sense, considering they filmed Avengers 3 and 4 back to back.
QuoteI absolutely hated what they did to Banner/The Hulk. First the Hulk turns into a spineless coward in Infinity War, and then this?!
I'll admit I'm not super attached to The Hulk, so that probably feeds into it, but I kinda liked it. It felt like a happy ending for Banner. Still, for those wanting some "Hulk Smash!" it did feel like a ripoff. I'll say it was good for Banner's character, but sucked for The Hulk. Plus I thought the CGI was a bit dodgy in spots (particularly that initial scene in the dinner)
QuoteWas cool seeing Pepper armor up. So....Rescue or...Iron Woman?
There was an Iron Man 3 toy of Pepper as Rescue, so I'd say Rescue is the official name.
QuoteOnce everyone was resurrected (except Vision, who wasn't taken out by the Infinity Gauntlet, and Black Widow, who can't be resurrected, apparently) , the Guardians weren't really used enough.
Everyone forgets about poor Heimdall. Maybe they group him in with the Asgardians who died in Ragnarok. Anyway, I definitely agree about the Guardians. If you're a fan of them and were hoping for more, you'd be disappointed (except in the case of Nebula, and maybe Rocket). I think this mildly acceptable simply because we know that GotG Vol. 3 is well-underway.
That being said, Drax got ripped off big time. Not only does he basically have no comedic shine this film (unlike IW, where he got some of the best jokes), he barely got to fight Thanos, the guy he blames for the death of his family, and didn't get a chance to react to it. I wanna see what he's gonna be about in part 3 (other than mugging for the camera) because as a character he's been underutilized ever since he debuted. Personally I'd like to see either his dead family play into a story more (like in the not-particularly good GotG cartoon or the okay-to-pretty-decent Telltale GotG game), or Pacifist Drax from the recent comics.
QuoteStan's cameo was cool. If I remember right, that was actually what his hair looked like back in 1970!
I think you're right about that.
QuoteIf this was the last film for a lot of the actors, it was a great ending for Captain America. But I didn't like seeing him hand the shield off to Falcon. Granted, I know Bucky wouldn't have wanted it, but I'm not a fan of Falcon as Cap, and lets face it: Falcon was defeated by Ant-Man. Movie Falcon is a wuss.
I really liked Sam Wilson as a character in the Cap sequels, but he's a little too underutilized on the whole to be Captain America in this. It's a good thing him and Bucky are moving to the world of Streaming shows, because I don't think movie audiences would go in for Cap movies starring Falcon.
I can't make no real argument against what either of you said. But to be honest, a lot of it might be how you like your kool-aid flavored.
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My brother, who is a huge fan of the Hulk hated what they did too. Said as much, first he gets beatdown, then turns into a coward and now pretty much just Shrek in Endgame. Honestly I had less of a problem with it than I did have a problem with it. That's probably extended from the fact that I believe it WAS the Professor Hulk in the original Infinity Gauntlet. And at least he was actually IN it. Even though I still don't know why his arm is in a sling, doesn't Hulk have a healing factor too?
In regards to Thor, beer belly aside, I actually was a fan of his look. A much bigger fan of this look than either of the last two movies he was in. Again, beer belly notwithstanding.
And Captain America's arch still slightly bothers me. I'm still trying to figure out the science of it all, but I don't see Steve giving up like that. I mean, it was nice and all. And I know they've said they're developing a series with Sam and Bucky, which I have to assume Captain America will be in it, you're right about Sam. Even if he's more than just a one-trick pony as a flier, he's still just human. Captain America is PEAK human. Kinda gives him an edge against like competition. I don't see Falcon being able to be a believable challenge to the Winter Soldier or Red Skull or even Crossbones of the MCU.
Speaking of which, doesn't the Super Solder serum retards aging effects? It did for Isiah Bradley. If it artificially make him taller, faster and stronger why would it just stop?
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It's not just about how Thor's look. It's about how they treated his PTSD as a joke. As well as turned him into little more than one big fat joke.
https://sheepfulsheepyard.tumblr.com/post/184470533501/wow-the-fact-that-the-russo-brothers-hate-how
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The Ned/Peter/everyone important to the spiderman universe got dusted thing is... eh. It's a silly workaround to the fact that they needed to age certain characters for projects I'm sure they want to do in the near future *cough*Young Avengers*cough* without aging others out of high school. It's... nonsense, but whatever, if it gets me a YA movie or makes Stinger a thing early I'll deal with it.
As for the Steve aging thing... I feel like he did age slower. He's older, sure, but if he "retired" back in the 70s like is implied... even being generous that we're talking 79 (I forget what exact year it was), that's him 40 years older, and the dude's already lived a few decades in the present after the whole ice thing. Peggy DIED OF OLD AGE during a similar time frame, and Steve just looks like he's MAYBE 50-60. His hair wasn't even white, just a bit gray. And that's on top of the fact that women typically live longer then men.
But yeah, I agree that the Russo's really did NOT get Thor, particularly a post-Ragnarok Thor. Hulk was fine (he was cool enough, and... well, tbh, they've gone back and forth between professor Hulk in the comics before), so while I'm not in love with it, I don't really care since it can be easily handwaved later.
KKhohoho:
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1, Are we allowed to post links to stuff with the more colorful 4-letter words in it?
Quote2. It's not just about how Thor's look. It's about how they treated his PTSD as a joke. As well as turned him into little more than one big fat joke.
So yes, I do totally get what you're saying. It is not just that they made him fat and changes his appearance, they did have him hide from his problems, not take responsibility, and play all of it for laughs (again, Benton's gonna HATE this, considering he didn't like the Ragnarok version to begin with.
3. This one's going to be a response more for the tumblr post you linked to than your post here (not sure if that tumblr post is by you or someone else?):
-James Gunn was involved with the Thor/Guardians scenes in Infinity War. I haven't heard if he was involved with the scenes involving Rocket, Nebula, Thor and/or The Guardians in this film but considering Thor spends very little time with the Guardians until the end of the flick and most of them are dead until the final act of the film, I'd guess no? So some of the stuff involving Thor in IW could be leveled at Gunn, since the characterization and humor in those IF scenes were CLEARLY his work.
-
Quoteliterally, making thor fat was such a part of a gag that they edited it out of trailers?
The entire middle act and all but a handful of quick shots from the final act were hidden from trailers. They wanted to hide the fact that there was a 5 year time skip. Plus it's a spoiler since it's character-and-plot driven.
Quotehis depression bend is utterly played for laughs, and just about losing a fight
Umm, no, Thor didn't have depression because he lost a fight, he had depression because he felt responsible for half of everyone dying because he "didn't go for the head" (and then DID go for the head later; I think the Avengers thought that they could have gotten some useful information out of Thanos if they kept him alive. I don't know if that's actually true, but Thor seemed to think so.) It's the same reason Starlord's reaction before he turned to dust in IW is "Ahhh, MAAN" because he's thinking "Dude, I really screwed up" (Only he didn't use the word "screwed", to paraphrase Rocket) Notice Thor's relatively fine before the time-skip; I think it's a safe bet that he and the other Avengers were really counting on using the stones to reverse the snap, and them being gone was kinda a gut-punch to, well, them in general, but Thor in particular. Quill would have been in very much the same boat if he hadn't been dusted. Really, you can imagine that
exact gag being done with Quill instead of Thor (which would have been funnier, considering Pratt used to be overweight in his Parks and Rec days, but they already made that joke in IW)
-I still have mixed feelings about Thor's move towards comedy in general, but in fairness, people always talk about the directors of these movies, but there's also the writers, the "real heroes" as the first Deadpool movie put it. Christopher Marcus and Stephan McFeely wrote both IW and Endgame, and I've skimmed enough interviews in the last three days to know they had say in how the story shook out. (for example, Thanos dying in the first act was something they kinda thought up on the fly when feeling like they wrote themselves into a corner with Thanos; and they considered having The Living Tribunal show up for the final fight in END in a similar manner to the Watcher). And Thor: Ragnarok was written by three writers, none of them Taika Watitti and two of them Craig Kyle and Chris Yost, returning from Dark World, and their handiwork was all over that movie's plot (I'd bet good money they were behind the deaths of the Warrior's Three)
Yes, I am aware that under all the comedy and comedic beats there are a number of very deliberate themes at play in Ragarok ("Asgard is not a place, it is its people") And this film (and it's predecessor) did cast that aside (from the first first scene in IW, really) but I'm sure they made those calls for the purposes of using Thor/Hemsworth for comedy, and, along with Tony and Cap, using the time-travel sequences for character moments that pay off by the end of the flick. In Ragnarok Thor gets some moral support and wisdom from his father, and this film he gets one last conversation with his mother. Do I agree with the direction they've taken Thor (even having him join The Guardians for no apparent reason other than him being a comedy character now)? No, can't say that I do, but then again, I still don't like that they turned Korg into basically Thor's stoner/slacker friend, but I don't have any say in that, so I guess the best we can hope for is that these characters make us laugh if they're not going to be taken seriously. I mean, I love Drax and Ant-Man, but neither of them were comedy characters before the MCU delivered their versions of them.
Okay guys, breaking my dissertation exile to add commentary here. Several of y'all have noted the same things I have, and I get the impression that we seem to be generally viewing the film the same way.
So, non-spoilery overview first:
Endgame was good, almost great. It is a fair, if not a perfect, ending of this amazing project. I did not love it the way I did Infinity War, but this film, admittedly, had a harder job to do than even its predecessor, an incredibly hard job. There is no more after this. This is the end. There will be more movies, more individual stories, and maybe Marvel will even try to manufacture another miracle and create another interwoven, overarching, franchise-spanning saga, but this movie is, unquestionably, the end of the journey that began over a decade ago. To create a satisfying ending to twenty plus films and a decade of storytelling and universe-building is a very tough job indeed.
It did that job pretty well, and with a comprehensiveness that was impressive and awe-inspiring. But it does have significant flaws, both on the plot and the thematic level. It is by turns touching, heart-rending, inspiring, and beautiful. Unfortunately, it is also occasionally stupidly silly and in a few (though too many for a project like this) moments it undercuts its own emotional impact for a cheap joke. Still, on the whole, it succeeds on the emotional level quite magnificently.
On the plot level, it is often creative and surprising, but it is also downright sloppy to a degree that is rather astonishing given the importance of the film and the accomplishment of its creators. However, given the nature and complexity of the story being told, such sloppiness is neither entirely surprising nor as damaging as it might be in other contexts.
I suppose the great question for a film like this, though its like has never actually existed before, is 'does it create a satisfying conclusion?' The answer is, yes, emotionally. It does, and it does so in wonderful ways, with tragedy and triumph. It provides the hopeful, inspiring experience that a comicbook film should, while still feeling weighty and significant. I walked out of the theater feeling somberly elated. Intellectually, the conclusion is less satisfying for a number of reasons I'll outline below. Despite that failing, I walked away happy, if not perfectly so.
So, go see it. It is worth seeing solely on the merits of the uniqueness of its cultural import, in recognition of the grand experiment that it concludes, but it is also worth seeing AS that conclusion, and on its own merits as a very good adventure film full of wonder, hope, and redemption.
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Alright. In no particular order, here are my spoilery thoughts. Criticisms first so we can end on a good note.
So, essentially, I loved this movie except for every scene with Thor in it. Or, more accurately, the fat, drunken buffoon carrying Thor's hammer and axe, because the god of thunder was completely absent from this movie. Unfortunately and inexplicably, the Russo Brothers, despite making the right decision at almost every other moment in all of their films, chose to continue the horrible, massively out of character-characterization of Thor from Ragnarok. He's portrayed as a fat, drunken slob, constantly blubbering and completely broken by his experiences whose almost sole purpose is for comedy.
Now, a Thor broken by the loss of almost everything he's known and loved...that could have been a story worth telling. We saw a glimpse of that in Infinity War, and it was good. But, just like Ragnarok, they undercut EVERY. SINGLE. MOMENT. of any emotional weight in his scenes in Endgame for a stupid, cheap joke. Thor gets a reunion with his lost mother, which could really have been beautiful and powerful. Instead, it's just another excuse for fat jokes. The same is true when he reclaims Mjolnir. That SHOULD have been a powerful moment of Thor's arc, the culmination of him putting himself back together and climbing out of his despair. Instead, it has zero weight because nothing about his portrayal changes. Folks are complaining that they make Thor's entirely reasonable PTSD into nothing more than fodder for jokes, and that's a fair assessment.
In a film and a franchise that is 90% about connections to the wider universe and mythos that they have created, this is massively jarring and frustrating. You can't have a character just suddenly perform a 180 degree about-face in personality. It defies the entire purpose of having a shared universe and robs everything touching that character of the accumulated narrative power that comes to bear at every other moment of the film.
It's particularly egregious because of how good everything else is. The scenes with the 'Big Thorbowski' are a gaping wound in the film, a glaring flaw that mars an otherwise shinning surface, an element as far out of step of the universe as everything else is bound in harmony. I found myself legitimately angry whenever he was on screen, not just for what they were doing to one of my favorite characters, but also because he was taking away from the rest of the film by his discordant presence.
Jokes are fine, and, in fact, necessary, in a film like this. And Endgame has lots of great, funny moments that fit its theme and tone and arise naturally from the interplay of personalities. One of my favorite moments is when Warmachine just straight-up coldcocks "Stupid Indiana Jones," Starlord. That's a great comedy beat, and it totally works as a release from the building tension of that act. In contrast, though there are some legitimately funny moments with Thor, the overall effect is wildly at odds with both the character and the context.
So, that was my biggest complaint, and it is, in my eyes, a very serious one. However, there were also some pretty major plot holes. I'm sure everyone who has thought about the film for more than five minutes has recognized them, but let's go ahead and give them a quick overview.
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Random note, I was disappointed by Tony and Cap's reunion. It didn't quite work for me. They eventually got there, but they never had the reconciliation I really wanted to see.
Captain Marvel was cool, but her powerlevel is plot-breakingly high. She is as problematic for a universe as Silver Age, planet-juggling Superman. She was also sort of bland in this, probably because she didn't get much narrative space.
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This is a time-travel movie. That means it's going to have plot holes and logic problems. You really just about can't do a time-travel tale without screwing up your own plot, at least a little. However, Avengers is surprisingly bad, even for the genre. In Back to the Future, the logic doesn't always make sense, but they set out the rules of their setting, and then they pretty much stick to them. In Endgame, they establish their rules...and then they almost immediately break them.
They say that you can travel in time, but you can't change anything because you'll create alternate time-lines instead of actually changing the future (Back to the Future rules, but with more inflexibility of time). So, they can only do this if they pluck the Infinity Stones from the past and then return them to the exact moment they came from, so that they were effectively never gone. Then, they immediately bork their own history by accidentally freeing Loki right after Avengers I and letting him get his hands on the Cosmic Cube/Tesseract/Space Stone.
Ohh, and Cap tells his past self that Bucky was still alive several years early. Great.
Okay, I thought, now we'll see them have to repair the timeline, chase after Loki, and put things to rights. Nope, they immediately jump further back in time, and just leave Loki free to play merry havoc with he timeline, and this is NEVER ADDRESSED AGAIN! Really?! Really!? No-one thought to give us a single line of dialog about how this didn't matter because Tony had planned X, or how he fixed it in the snap, or any of a hundred other ways around it? Nope, we are told, explicitly, that they cannot change history.....and then they do...and NOTHING HAPPENS.
We can handwave Cap's gaff, because they have a line about the scepter erasing minds, though that isn't really how we saw it work in Avengers I. Still, we can say he blanked his past self's memory. Okay, but Loki is still out there with an Infinity Stone instead of in prison in Asgard, which throws everything after Avengers I out the window.
And, that's not even considering Cap's ending. I'll discuss this on a narrative level later on, but on a plot level, let's think about it for a moment. He jumps back in time, returns the stones, then just keeps going back to 1946. So, he's absolutely changing the future, getting married, changing Peggy's life, and just flagrantly disregarding the rules we've seen established, as well as basic common sense. This is also a major problem, logically, because there's no way that Captain Freaking America is going to just quietly sit out, say, the Korean War, Vietnam, or Hydra taking over S.H.I.E.L.D. He knows a ton of what the future holds, and as we've already exhaustively established, he's not the type of person who can sit quietly on the sidelines while something bad is going on.
That's not even touching on how Peter and everyone he knows are conveniently still the same age, despite the five year gap, or how EVERYTHING goes out the window when Thanos invades the future and he, plus all of his time-displaced minions, are wiped from existence.
So, why couldn't they go back in time and kill baby Thanos again? Seemed to work out just fine killing past-Thanos in the future.
Some such shenanigans are to be expected in a time-travel movie...but for a film that is so carefully and wonderfully made and which is, in all other ways tremendously self-aware, to be so sloppy is just mind-boggling.
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On to more positive things. This movie, for the most part, provided good endings for these great characters. What I wanted from it was something I was never going to get, to see everyone ride into the sunset and live happily ever after, because I'm a big softie. Obviously, they were going to tell a story with some sacrifice, and there is a traditional story logic that would demand that for an epic tale of such scale and stakes. However, it is also a comic book movie, and comics are all about hope out of tragedy and finding the third way. It was never going to happen, but I wish ti would have. People would have complained that it was unrealistic, but realism isn't really your primary concern in a world of talking trees and thunder gods. Still, the Russo brothers displayed admirable restraint in the bodycount, and the sacrifices that were made were well done.
The Hawkeye / Black Widow scene, though very predictable, was beautiful and heart-rending. She was the rational choice, but it was still hard. It was a fair ending for her arc, though not the one I would have chosen.
Iron Man's snap of sacrifice: Wow. So, it's a wonderful moment, and a great climax...and it was always going to happen. We know RDJ wanted out, definitively, and he wanted to go out as the biggest hero of heroes. (Gosh, he really is Tony Stark) They really played this hard, with the daughter, the idyllic life, and the whole setup. He might as well have said he was five days from retirement. Still, it all worked, and the scene and its aftermath made a fitting end for the character and a fitting reflection on the end of the journey which had, after all, really begun with him. I knew it was coming, but still I wish we could have seen him ride into the sunset instead.
Cap's ending: So, despite the many significant problems this scene creates, I love it. I love it immensely, and despite its very real flaws. This is EXACTLY the ending I hoped they'd give him, because it was the only way out for the character other than death. He is my favorite character, and I was very happy to see him get to be happy. Fortunately, the problems with the scene are all in execution, not in conception. If he had gotten lost in time, instead of choosing it, and if they had shaped their rules a little differently, it could have fit more easily. Despite the issues it creates, it was wonderful to see him finally get that dance so long deferred. It made me all but cheer.
His giving the shield to Sam, as the new Cap, was just perfect. I saw it coming and got so excited I practically jumped out of my seat. It's a wonderful, fitting move, and it also gives us a Black Captain America, which is just awesome on a cultural level. I find myself fairly cold about the future of Marvel movies, but if they put out a new Captain America movie staring Falcon/Cap, I will be there with bells on!
THIS is how you add diversity to your franchise, by organic growth that honors the source material and enriches everything around it.
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Random thoughts:
It was great seeing Pepper come in and stand with Tony. That was a wonderful little moment and a fitting end to their arc. It was one of many great little thrills of recognition and excitement in that massive scene.
In general, the final battle is wonderful, and it creates a thousand great moments that you would have to see the movie several times to properly enjoy.
Tony's embrace of Peter, his surrogate son, was wonderful and touching.
I liked seeing Rocket in his comic costume. That was a fun little touch.
Okay, the whole 'femme force' moment was a little cool and a lot cheesy. There's something neat about Marvel showing off all these great, strong female characters. Okay, I'm onboard with that. However, they created that moment just for that purpose, with not the slightest shred of plot reason for them to be together at that moment, and it was just jarring and pulled me out of the film. Do SOMETHING to set that up. Show them all battling in the vicinity or something, or give us a line of dialog. Sheesh.
Now, I loved a lot of this movie. There are a ton of great bits, but my favorite moment, hands down, was during the final battle where Cap finally wields Mjolnir, because OF COURSE he's worthy! Ohh, I cannot express how much I loved that, and to see Cap taking it to Thanos with the hammer was just fantastic. The movie was worth the price of admission for me just for that moment.
So, that's it. It's a flawed but worthwhile film, and it has some really wonderful gems in its three hour runtime.
Steve Aging: Yeah, I think it's clear he aged slower than normal. From the car, he seemed to have gone back to the 40s, which means he would have lived through 70+ years.
So yes, the several of y'all who made predictions about my reactions were correct.
Yay, glad to see you pop up Benton! Really enjoyed hearing your thoughts! :thumbup:
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I think the fact that
Ant-Man, of all people, is treated with more dignity than Thor says something. If nothing else, he was instrumental to kicking off the time travel plot, saved people's butts on several occasions, and had that great sequence where he goes to see Cassie (who didn't get to be a superhero yet, but hopefully she will in the future).
QuoteJokes are fine, and, in fact, necessary, in a film like this. And Endgame has lots of great, funny moments that fit its theme and tone and arise naturally from the interplay of personalities. One of my favorite moments is when Warmachine just straight-up coldcocks "Stupid Indiana Jones," Starlord. That's a great comedy beat, and it totally works as a release from the building tension of that act. In contrast, though there are some legitimately funny moments with Thor, the overall affect is wildly at odds with both the character and the context.
I was pleasantly surprised at how light-hearted this movie was, actually, considering how the last one ended. I was actually expecting the first act to be
significantly bleaker than it was. The trailers certainly weren't selling a movie where Black Widow jokes that's she going to throw a PB&J sandwich at Cap's head. Or Korg playing Fortnite (that was a bit of an eye roller)
QuoteOkay, the whole 'femme force' moment was a little cool and a lot cheesy. There's something neat about Marvel showing off all these great, strong female characters. Okay, I'm onboard with that. However, they created that moment just for that purpose, with not the slightest shred of plot reason for them to be together at that moment, and it was just jarring and pulled me out of the film. Do SOMETHING to set that up. Show them all battling in the vicinity or something, or give us a line of dialog. Sheesh.
I would have to agree with you on that. I've heard some online say that Marvel wants to see how much traction that sequence gets online to see if they could put out a movie of that, and, hey, good for them. I'd watch the heck out that movie. Not only do I rather like most of the characters in that lineup, if it got made with that cast, Mantis might actually get to do something in it! :P
It also got me thinking about the geography of the fight sequence. When you have an extended sequence showing how characters like Spider-Man get from point A to point B with the Gauntlet, or how Ant-Man and Wasp get to the van, it's a little weird to see all these female characters just lined up out of nowhere like that (maybe Wanda or Dr. Strange teleported them?) On that note, did anyone catch how the Wanda/Thanos fight ended? I could swear it just ended offscreen. It's a great sequence that absolutely needed to be in the movie (I'm still waiting for the scene where Drax wails on Thanos; hopefully it'll be on the Blu-Ray) but I could swear it copped out after they cut to a different character. I mean, X-Men Apocalypse wasn't well received, and it's not nearly as enjoyable a movie as this, but it least made to sure to demonstrate how an overpowered supporting character could wail on the main villain and still not actually win.
[EDIT] Well, rewatching Endgame, I got my answer, Wanda was defeated by the bombardment from the giant spaceship right before Captain Marvel flies through it.
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Quotecomics are all about hope out of tragedy and finding the third way.
That's a very narrow-minded view of comics.
Anyway, I'm still going with the alternate timeline theory. Plothole inducing as it still is, it's the only thing that makes sense. Present Nebula killing Past Nebula? Past Nebula is now an alternate version, doesn't count. Tony wiping out Thanos and his forces years from the past? They're now from an alternate timeline, it doesn't count. So on and so forth.
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QuoteThat's a very narrow-minded view of comics.
Not the nicest way to put it. It's technically true, but that's how it is for the comics
this movie's story is channeling. Watchmen is a great story, but this ain't Watchmen.
I'd sum this movie up with one word: Satisfying. The kind of movie that puts a smile on your face as you leave the theater. I complained last year that Infinity War's ending felt like the exact opposite of that, as well as leaving the audience high and dry while they waited for the real ending. This was pretty much what I wanted all along. It's a lot sloppier than IW, but with a feel-good ending for general audiences. A crowd pleaser.
QuoteAnyway, I'm still going with the alternate timeline theory. Plothole inducing as it still is, it's the only thing that makes sense. Present Nebula killing Past Nebula? Past Nebula is now an alternate version, doesn't count. Tony wiping out Thanos and his forces years from the past? They're now from an alternate timeline, it doesn't count. So on and so forth.
The problem with that is the part with Cap at the end. If that's how it works, then how did Cap end up on that bench in front of Sam and Bucky? He didn't travel back to the present, because the machine didn't bring him back when it was supposed to. he just ditched the wrist device and lived out his life. So how did he appear there?
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 05:06:32 AM
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QuoteThat's a very narrow-minded view of comics.
Not the nicest way to put it. It's technically true, but that's how it is for the comics
this movie's story is channeling. Watchmen is a great story, but this ain't Watchmen.
I'd sum this movie up with one word: Satisfying. The kind of movie that puts a smile on your face as you leave the theater. I complained last year that Infinity War's ending felt like the exact opposite of that, as well as leaving the audience high and dry while they waited for the real ending. This was pretty much what I wanted all along. It's a lot sloppier than IW, but with a feel-good ending for general audiences. A crowd pleaser.
QuoteAnyway, I'm still going with the alternate timeline theory. Plothole inducing as it still is, it's the only thing that makes sense. Present Nebula killing Past Nebula? Past Nebula is now an alternate version, doesn't count. Tony wiping out Thanos and his forces years from the past? They're now from an alternate timeline, it doesn't count. So on and so forth.
The problem with that is the part with Cap at the end. If that's how it works, then how did Cap end up on that bench in front of Sam and Bucky? He didn't travel back to the present, because the machine didn't bring him back when it was supposed to. he just ditched the wrist device and lived out his life. So how did he appear there?
Spoiler
I still said it was plothole inducing. But it's the only thing that makes any sort of sense.
Okay, I think I kinda solved my major problem with the movie and honest with similar movies as well. And it took a while, almost felt like I had to do a Matrix and do a data download of science and and research actual theories. But I'll break it down. And it came to me while thinking about the latest Game of Thrones episode.
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First, the Game of Thrones part...
Spoiler
Arya saves Bran and kills the Night King with the very dagger he gave her in the very spot he gave it to her. It kinda reminded me of the causal loop in Terminator. In real life all future events are dependent on past events. In order for "B" to happen there must be an "A". However in a case like Terminator and Game of Thrones, the opposite is true. A past event is dependent on a future event. Bran knows that he has to give Arya the dagger for her to save him. John Connor knows he has to send Reece back so he can father him.
This is Time Travel as we typically think of it. Going back in time, from one point of the time line to another part of that same timeline. This builds upon what's called "Novikov's Self-Consistency Principle", which says the backward time-traveled future event IS and was always a past event. And the problems we're seeing, where the Avengers go back from one time and altering the time line(Steve staying back, Steve telling himself about Bucky, Loki taking the Tesseract, Nebula shooting her past self) and how those changes don't affect the future. We're seeing it as a problem because should be changing the present. And this would lead to "Grandfather Paradox". You know the idea that if you go back in time and kill your grandfather you will prevent your own birth, which if it were possible nullifies any theory of
Backward time travel. Because if you can't go back and kill your grandfather, that makes it impossible from being able to go back at all. If I could backward time travel, I can't prevent my own birth because doing so would prevent any possibility of it at all. And this is where time travel gets messy.
But what happened in this movie wasn't exactly "time travel".
Another theory, which acts as a work-around of the "Grandfather Paradox" is what's called the "Everett Interpretation" or what's known as the "Many-Worlds Interpretation". It removes the randomness from quantum physics by posing that all possible actions are real. It says everything that can happen and could happen has happened and will happen. Of course we're more familiar with this from DC "Infinite Earths". There's Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 3, etc. And the differences between all of these Earths might be minuscule. Like the difference between Earth 512,019 and Earth 512,020 is one one Earth you read this post and on the other you didn't. Then there are some Earths were the differences are major like on another Earth, Hitler won World War II. We know all of this, of course. But it wasn't the way we were thinking about Avengers Endgame. Again, the problems we saw like Loki taking the Tesseract and disappearing, how does he get capture goes to Asgard, fakes his death, ends up with the Grandmaster, steals the Tesseract and get taken hostage by Thanos where he is killed when Thanos takes the Tesseract? Or how does Nebula doesn't blank her future self out of existence when she shoots and kills her past self? All of those things still happen... but none of it was THE timeline we know or the MCU's actual Earth. Typically and traditionally we think of going from one point of a time line and going backward to another point on that same timeline. What they're actually doing is going from one timeline to a completely separate timeline. They may muck up that time line(and ostensibly fix it by putting the stones back where they got them) but their time line, their 1970-->2012-->2013-->2014-->2018-->2023 is still their time line.
In short, they just created a multiverse. The Infinity Stones they went and got are Infinity Stones from another Earth. And the reason why they just couldn't go back and kill baby Thanos because they wouldn't be going back and killing THEIR baby Thanos. It would be another timeline's baby Thanos. They may fix that timeline's decimation, but their decimation still happened and there's no undoing it. The only way is to do it again with another set of Infinity Stones. And the Nebula that Future-Nebula shot was another timeline's Nebula. So she wasn't killing herself. She was killing another version of her.
Again they're not going from Earth A's past-----------(to here)---------------present------(here)----------------------future.
They are:
Earth A's past----------------------------------present-------------(here)-----------future
Earth B's past-------------------(to here)-----present-------------------------------future
Earth C's past------------(and here)----------present-------------------------------future
Earth D's past----------------(and here)------present-------------------------------future
Earth E's past---(and here)-------------------present-------------------------------future
This is not "backward" travel. It's diagonal travel.
And of course the wrinkle in all of this... Captain America. He goes back to those other Earths and puts back those other Stones. But how does he go from Earth A to Earth B, C, D, or E and stay in Earth B, C, D or E and end up old in Earth A? Again, even if Backward Time Travel was theoretically possible, you'd expose the "Grandfather Paradox" if you can't run the risk of preventing your own birth, it nullifies the possibility of going back at all. That is of course you go to a different timeline. But he's back in our timeline/Earth?
Lastly, in regards to his aging, this is what I'm referencing:
(http://www.unleashthefanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Robert-Morales.jpg)
This is from Truth: Red, White & Black. The story where the Super Soldier Serum was tested on black soldiers before they perfected it and gave it to Steve Rodgers. As the story goes, there was one survivor, Isaiah Bradley who never became Captain America but still had Captain America's powers but since he was never a mainstream hero he was kind of like a big deal in Black America and that's what the picture shows. You see him in a pictures from the early 1960s to late 1960s, early 1970s, late 1970s, early 1980s, late 1980s, early 1990s and mid-1990s. And he hasn't aged. In nearly 40 years. So I'm under the impression, the Serum doesn't stop aging, it's possible for him to get gray hair and liver spots if they're not conditional to his physical abilities, but anything that would affect his physical ability would still be peak-human. But in Endgame he seems older and frail. He looks AT LEAST 80-something.
BTW, theoretically,
forward time travel is possible. If we had the technology to do it.
Anyway, that's what I got.
Spoiler
I think the movie pretty much confirmed it's multiverse theory. That's why nothing in the past affected the "present." and why Hulk blew off the idea of changing events. They just didn't want to futz over other timelines to save their own.
As for Cap... it's not what they clearly depicted, but my guess is either Hulk DID manage to bring him back to that timeline (he just futzed up the where... which IS in keeping with Hulk's character in that film), or after Peggy died Cap jumped back to the real timeline so he could give Falcon the shield.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 01, 2019, 11:57:31 AM
Okay, I think I kinda solved my major problem with the movie and honest with similar movies as well. And it took a while, almost felt like I had to do a Matrix and do a data download of science and and research actual theories. But I'll break it down. And it came to me while thinking about the latest Game of Thrones episode.
Spoiler
First, the Game of Thrones part...
Spoiler
Arya saves Bran and kills the Night King with the very dagger he gave her in the very spot he gave it to her. It kinda reminded me of the causal loop in Terminator. In real life all future events are dependent on past events. In order for "B" to happen there must be an "A". However in a case like Terminator and Game of Thrones, the opposite is true. A past event is dependent on a future event. Bran knows that he has to give Arya the dagger for her to save him. John Connor knows he has to send Reece back so he can father him.
On the Game of Thrones part:
Spoiler
Is that what the Bran possessing a crow part was supposed to be about? Because I was wondering about that. That episode, as riveting as it was, was a bit hard to follow for me, because, as many pointed out online, it's REALLY darkly lit which made it a bit hard to tell what was going on.
As for the time travel stuff, that's quite the wall of text; I'm going to have to come back to that later when I've made a bit more sleep. In the meantime, please see my earlier memes.
QuoteLastly, in regards to his aging, this is what I'm referencing:
(http://www.unleashthefanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Robert-Morales.jpg)
This is from Truth: Red, White & Black. The story where the Super Soldier Serum was tested on black soldiers before they perfected it and gave it to Steve Rodgers. As the story goes, there was one survivor, Isaiah Bradley who never became Captain America but still had Captain America's powers but since he was never a mainstream hero he was kind of like a big deal in Black America and that's what the picture shows. You see him in a pictures from the early 1960s to late 1960s, early 1970s, late 1970s, early 1980s, late 1980s, early 1990s and mid-1990s. And he hasn't aged. In nearly 40 years. So I'm under the impression, the Serum doesn't stop aging, it's possible for him to get gray hair and liver spots if they're not conditional to his physical abilities, but anything that would affect his physical ability would still be peak-human. But in Endgame he seems older and frail. He looks AT LEAST 80-something.
Yep, I remember that story, especially with Eli (the Patriot from Young Avengers) being related to him. I think the thing to remember is
Spoiler
1) They wanted that visual of an elderly, content Cap, having lived a full life. The mechanics to that were less important. Like, to give another example: they didn't go to the 70s because they needed Pym Particles and the Tesseract and so we can see a digitally de-aged Micheal Douglas; they went there so Cap can see Peggy and Tony can get closure with his father so those they feed their character arcs. Or Luke staring at twin suns in The Last Jedi.
2) The powersets, and how they work, for various superhero characters, vary from iteration to iteration. For example, so far, the Gal Gadot Wonder Woman can't fly. In the case of Captain America, Ultimate Cap, for example, has outright super strength and is capable of bending metal with his hands, beating up the Hulk and lifting a truck.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
Yay, glad to see you pop up Benton! Really enjoyed hearing your thoughts! :thumbup:
Thanks SS! That's a very nice welcome! :D Glad you enjoyed my ramblings!
Spoiler
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
I think the fact that Ant-Man, of all people, is treated with more dignity than Thor says something. If nothing else, he was instrumental to kicking off the time travel plot, saved people's butts on several occasions, and had that great sequence where he goes to see Cassie (who didn't get to be a superhero yet, but hopefully she will in the future).
ABSOLUTELY. Ha, that's very well said. He's funny, but he actually has an emotional arc that, surprise surprise, isn't undercut during the key moments. They play it straight when he finds Cassie. They play it straight when he meets up with the Wasp. And he's the biggest comedy relief character!
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
I was pleasantly surprised at how light-hearted this movie was, actually, considering how the last one ended. I was actually expecting the first act to be significantly bleaker than it was. The trailers certainly weren't selling a movie where Black Widow jokes that's she going to throw a PB&J sandwich at Cap's head. Or Korg playing Fortnite (that was a bit of an eye roller)
Agreed. I was braced for something pretty grim, and I was afraid they were going to wallow in it for a while. As is, I feel like they actually handled it pretty well.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
I would have to agree with you on that. I've heard some online say that Marvel wants to see how much traction that sequence gets online to see if they could put out a movie of that, and, hey, good for them. I'd watch the heck out that movie. Not only do I rather like most of the characters in that lineup, if it got made with that cast, Mantis might actually get to do something in it! :P
Haha, well, I like the idea, just not the execution. It would be great if they put out an all-female led team movie. I just hope they find some good reason to group those characters, because there's not good links between all of them.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
It also got me thinking about the geography of the fight sequence. When you have an extended sequence showing how characters like Spider-Man get from point A to point B with the Gauntlet, or how Ant-Man and Wasp get to the van, it's a little weird to see all these female characters just lined up out of nowhere like that (maybe Wanda or Dr. Strange teleported them?) On that note, did anyone catch how the Wanda/Thanos fight ended? I could swear it just ended offscreen. It's a great sequence that absolutely needed to be in the movie (I'm still waiting for the scene where Drax wails on Thanos; hopefully it'll be on the Blu-Ray) but I could swear it copped out after they cut to a different character. I mean, X-Men Apocalypse wasn't well received, and it's not nearly as enjoyable a movie as this, but it least made to sure to demonstrate how an overpowered supporting character could wail on the main villain and still not actually win.
Yeah, I want to go back and just watch that end sequence a couple of times. There is a TON going on. I was also sad we didn't see Drax vs. Thanos. That seems like a bit of a missed opportunity, but this wasn't really Drax's movie.
Quote from: kkhohoho on May 01, 2019, 03:53:38 AM
Quotecomics are all about hope out of tragedy and finding the third way.
That's a very narrow-minded view of comics.
True. It also happens to be the correct one. ;) Ha, seriously though, I am willing to defend that claim. Superhero comics (which is what I mean, to be clear), grew out of the Great Depression, and they were all about finding hope in a more fantastic world than the grim reality folks faced every day (coincidentally, I am fairly certain this is why these movies are so popular in our own day and age). That is the the through-line of superhero comics, though they can and do tackle other themes often enough. The core elements in the conception of the superhero are power fantasies and hope. We are not strong or tough enough to fight off danger or correct injustice, so we invent a Superman. We lack the strength to turn tragedy into triumph, so we invent a Batman. There is more to comics, but these ideas are in their DNA at the most basic level.
Shogunn, really interesting! Also, I'm glad you enjoyed this one more than the last one. I'm sorry you had so many problems with Infinity War (because tone is hard in text, to be clear, I mean this earnestly).
Further thoughts on plot holes:
Spoiler
So, based on what y'all have been saying and further reflection, I see that I didn't entirely understand the movies (rather clumsy and confusing) explanation of their time rules. The future can't be changed, because it already exists, and the characters are pulled back to that extant future. Their travel mechanism is external, based in that time, unlike in Back to the Future. Thus, when alternate timelines/alternate universes, whatever, are created/entered by their actions, they remain independent from the characters' actual future. That works, but it is rather drastically unsatisfying in terms of how much it still FEELS messy.
As Shogunn and others have said, the problem that remains is Cap, since he shows back up in the regular timeline, apparently, from what we see on screen, having gotten there the long way, and lived to THEIR future, which should be TOTALLY impossible. 'Mato, your workaround is the only thing that makes sense, but it's implicitly contradicted by what we see. We can get their by some mental gymnastics, but we're doing the filmmakers' work for them, which is a failure of the film. That said, your solution actually also solves the thematic problems of his ending, because it means that Cap could have gone on to have a long and glorious career as the Captain America of the 50s and on, rather than uncharacteristically just sitting out the rest of history. Their future would remain unchanged, but he had alternate universe/timeline adventures (which, by the way, I would kill to see! :lol: ).
I really want to watch the final act again...but I'm rather reluctant to go sit through the entire movie, including the bits I hated, again. Ha. :P I wish:
Spoiler
I could bottle the pure joy and awesomeness of that scene with Cap wielding Mjolnir!
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 01, 2019, 04:22:01 PM
Shogunn, really interesting! Also, I'm glad you enjoyed this one more than the last one. I'm sorry you had so many problems with Infinity War (because tone is hard in text, to be clear, I mean this earnestly).
Lol, no worries, I gotcha, bro. But to be honest, at this point, it's hard for me to see them as separate movies, Infinity War and Endgame. I went back and reread my comments and I'm still just kinda confused why were they insisting they were to be two separate movie. I mean I guess
technically you can watch Avengers:AOA without having watched Avengers and you can watch Avengers: IW without having watched AOA or Avengers. But it's hard to imagine that someone can watch Endgame without having watched IW. But that's neither here nor there.
But I do have this question about what you said, Benton. If anyone else his following his logic, feel free to chip in... I suppose we're all
still trying to figure this one out.
QuoteSpoiler
As Shogunn and others have said, the problem that remains is Cap, since he shows back up in the regular timeline, apparently, from what we see on screen, having gotten there the long way, and lived to THEIR future, which should be TOTALLY impossible. 'Mato, your workaround is the only thing that makes sense, but it's implicitly contradicted by what we see. We can get their by some mental gymnastics, but we're doing the filmmakers' work for them, which is a failure of the film. That said, your solution actually also solves the thematic problems of his ending, because it means that Cap could have gone on to have a long and glorious career as the Captain America of the 50s and on, rather than uncharacteristically just sitting out the rest of history. Their future would remain unchanged, but he had alternate universe/timeline adventures (which, by the way, I would kill to see! :lol: ).
Spoiler
If Captain America did indeed go on to have a glorious career as the Captain America in the 50s and he was there to not turn away from Korean, Vietnam, Cold War, Russians, etc, there by not sitting out history... wouldn't Sam had not just heard of him but known he was Captain America in his timeline? Which would negate his "living in a world without Captain America" because he lived in a world with Captain America? I dunno. I guess I'll have to go see this movie AGAIN. Darn.
Speaking of...
QuoteI really want to watch the final act again...but I'm rather reluctant to go sit through the entire movie, including the bits I hated, again. Ha. :P I wish:
Spoiler
I could bottle the pure joy and awesomeness of that scene with Cap wielding Mjolnir!
I'm seriously thinking about buying a ticket... watching the first scene or two the leaving. Go home, go to the gym, get something to eat, or walk around the mall... come back a few hours later just for the last part! :lol:
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 02, 2019, 02:23:13 AM
Lol, no worries, I gotcha, bro. But to be honest, at this point, it's hard for me to see them as separate movies, Infinity War and Endgame. I went back and reread my comments and I'm still just kinda confused why were they insisting they were to be two separate movie. I mean I guess technically you can watch Avengers:AOA without having watched Avengers and you can watch Avengers: IW without having watched AOA or Avengers. But it's hard to imagine that someone can watch Endgame without having watched IW. But that's neither here nor there.
Agreed. That was more or less my take on IW to begin with, which is why, though I understood your reservations, I wasn't troubled by them. I'm glad that this has helped.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 02, 2019, 02:23:13 AM
But I do have this question about what you said, Benton. If anyone else his following his logic, feel free to chip in... I suppose we're all still trying to figure this one out.
Spoiler
If Captain America did indeed go on to have a glorious career as the Captain America in the 50s and he was there to not turn away from Korean, Vietnam, Cold War, Russians, etc, there by not sitting out history... wouldn't Sam had not just heard of him but known he was Captain America in his timeline? Which would negate his "living in a world without Captain America" because he lived in a world with Captain America? I dunno. I guess I'll have to go see this movie AGAIN. Darn.
Ahh, see, that's the genius of this approach (however much we have to do the narrative work which the filmmakers should have done):
Spoiler
According to their specific time travel rules, whatever it looks like, Cap CAN'T have lived his life out in this timeline, because by going back, he's creating an alternate future, completely separate from theirs. This is essentially Back to the Future rules. If you change the past, you create an alternate timeline/universe, and if you keep moving forward in that timeline, like, by living through it, you move into the future of THAT timeline. The only way this works is 'Mato's idea, that he went back, created an alternate timeline, and then jumped back to their future with his device at the end of it. It is super messy, but it allows for whatever we want to have happened in another timeline, as nothing he did could affect their future.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 02, 2019, 02:23:13 AM
Speaking of...
QuoteI really want to watch the final act again...but I'm rather reluctant to go sit through the entire movie, including the bits I hated, again. Ha. :P I wish:
Spoiler
I could bottle the pure joy and awesomeness of that scene with Cap wielding Mjolnir!
I'm seriously thinking about buying a ticket... watching the first scene or two the leaving. Go home, go to the gym, get something to eat, or walk around the mall... come back a few hours later just for the last part! :lol:
Haha! I don't blame you! I have considered the same thing! :lol: That may be my favorite Marvel movie moment to date.
Time isnt a straight line,its more like a timey-wimey....okay,I cant do this... 🙂
BTW, word around the campfire has it that the first film of phase four will introduce a character we should have saw coming...
Phase 4 Spoiler:
Spoiler
Guardians of the Galaxy 3 will introduce Beta Ray Bill.
Phase 3 Spoiler:
Spoiler
Which considering Stormbreaker was made in Infinity War and Thor left with the Guardians of the Galaxy in Endgame, yeah we should have saw it coming.
Spoiler
The Russo's have shot down my little hand waving... Cap absolutely did stay in the past in secret and anything he did has already happened in the current timeline. My understanding is that they are taking the river theory of time... It branches off if something like a paradox happens, but can flow back together so long as events still line back up.
I'm torn, tbh. On the one hand, it's a LOT messier this way, and stuff like Loki is unresolved which is frustrating but I'm sure will be resolved in the Loki show. And I agree with the idea that Cap would never try to help in major events rings hollow.
Buuuuuuut... on the other hand, the major problem I had with my own theory is it failed to settle a long running mystery of the MCU. We know from one of the films, I forget whether it was WS or Civil War, that Peggy had Children. We never found out with whom, a fact that the Agent Carter show played up to a ridiculously degree (the second season even had a musical number, it got silly). Thing was, none of the shows candidates were really that viable, and it being Steve explains why she never told him. And old-Steve likely knew better than to visit his wife on days he was there.
It's still super messy though. I think the best explanation was that Tony's snap was to revert everyone to where they were supposed to be with no memory of the timeline changes resulting from their interference. The changes still happened, but without memory of it later events still go as they did originally, with any changes Steve made having always happened.
God this is why time travel is awful.
Shogunn:
Spoiler
Well, that's cool, I guess. I'd be really excited about that if they hadn't poisoned Thor's character root and branch.
'Mato:
Spoiler
Well...that's stupid. It can work, but yeah, it is WAY messier, and it leaves the thematic/character problems unresolved. It would have been so much simpler the way you suggested.
There's eventually talk the Inhuman's film might be dropped, by virtue of noteworthy utilization of In people in Agents of SHIELD, despite the way in which that the TV and motion picture approach are at present obliged by completely various individuals
New, spoilerific Spider-Man trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt9L1jCKGnE)
Spoiler
-The snap opened rifts into other dimensions. Ok then, so that's what going on in the new Agents of Shield season. Either that or Mysterio's faking and it's a complete coincidence. Or both.
-Man, poor Jon Favreau is getting old.
-"*&^& please, you've been to space." :lol:
Mysterio's looking pretty good. By which I mean, of course, his fishbowl. ^_^
Wait,is that...Spoony? :D
Okay,that kid at the end kinda looks like Spoony.
So Mysterio is now Abra Kadabra?And I guess Donnie Darko is now explained.
Yeah...I don't know how I feel about that. It looks like fun, but that seems like rather a big departure if, as SS says, they're telling the truth. Hmm. Also:
Spoiler
Spider-Man having these connections to Fury/Happy, while thematically appropriate, sort of undermine the whole "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" thing. It fits in their universe, but it isn't really all that fitting for the comic character, at least to me. This isn't necessarily a problem, just a discordant note that I notice.
Sort of how they made Tony into Uncle Ben?
Benton:
Spoiler
I was totally thinking that today since seeing the trailer. Opening up the multiverse? Sure. Doing it in a Spider-Man film? Seems like the wrong play. But Spider-Man makes money. So Spider-Man gets another movie, and that's the movie that gets the "what happens after Endgame" stuff.
Spider-Man' supposed to (generally) be the street-level, down-to earth, "Friendly Neighborhood" Spider-Man fighting crooks who want to pull a heist. This is, like, the thematic opposite of that. It should be the premise of a Guardians (again, Cancerverse, make it happen, Feige!) or Doctor Strange. Of course, multiverse in Spidey gives them some options (assuming Sony doesn't have the exclusive rights to those characters in the movies.
QuoteWait,is that...Spoony? :D
Okay,that kid at the end kinda looks like Spoony.
Are you talking about Flash? Because I went back and checked the end of the trailer and if it's not Flash I'm not sure who you're talking about.
Yes.And I have to get some new material. ☺
I just remembered something I'd forgotten for like two weeks since Avengers came out.
Thor really needs to stop doing that thing where he summons his weapon to his hand, indoors, several doors away. Seriously, Thor, it's a d*ck move. They made a joke out of it in Ragnarok but they do it again in Endgame (you can see it in some of the trailers) and the movie doesn't call attention to it.
SS, regarding Thor's weapon summoning: Agreed and that's bothered me for a while. Obviously, it is more than just rude to have Thor's gear destroying walls and so on as it answers his call. These are often
occupied areas. The odds that someone gets smooshed by a flying hammer or axe get pretty high after a while. Maybe the idea is that these weapons are smart enough to do some path planning around obstacles, which I would find totally believable and which I think I have seen in the comics. But, I don't recall ever being shown that in the MCU, and it would have been easy (and kind of cool) to have shown.
Spoiler
BTW, I think the continuity issue with Cap can be resolved by applying the time-travel rules roughed out during the movie. As others have said, the Cap issue should have taken 30 seconds to explain. Really just old Cap saying, "I came back yesterday. I've been away for a long time."
And, I also agree that it would be beyond odd for Cap to have lived decades somewhere and sat out every major event, knowing he could have helped. Since the "other" Cap arguably would have been frozen in ice, it's not like it would have been that disruptive, at least until he left just as the "new" (original to that timeline) Cap showed up. I haven't read what the Russo brothers have said about it. And, I don't care. They had every opportunity to clarify what they thought happened in the movie. If it's not in there, then their version is no more official than any fan speculation based on what actually made the final cut. That said, there is still potential for extended scenes and director's cut versions, so I guess they do get another bite at the apple, if they care enough to take it.
Quote from: BentonGrey on May 06, 2019, 04:10:34 PM
Yeah...I don't know how I feel about that. It looks like fun, but that seems like rather a big departure if, as SS says, they're telling the truth. Hmm. Also:
Spoiler
Spider-Man having these connections to Fury/Happy, while thematically appropriate, sort of undermine the whole "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" thing. It fits in their universe, but it isn't really all that fitting for the comic character, at least to me. This isn't necessarily a problem, just a discordant note that I notice.
Spoiler
Spidey hasn't really been a 'Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman' for a while now. He was a fulltime Avenger for over 10 years or so, and he was a millionaire for a few years too. I think they've tried to scale it back somewhat, but he's not that much of a smalltime hero anymore.
Spoiler
That's fine, but his entire arc in Homecoming was about how he wanted to be a friendly neighborhood Superhero and catch street level baddies. He turned down the Avengers gig so he could stay where he was.
Admittedly, Sam Jackson's response is an appropriate criticism of that mentality, but still.
Well,I saw Captain Marvel.It was...a thing.Nick Fury was the highpoint as everyone said.Oh and Skrulls are a metaphor for illegal immigration.In case you missed that.Im not sure how you could,but thats the whole point.
Ehh, I don't think it's nearly as hamfisted as all of that.
Its not really subtle,either. ☺️
Well coming from someone who worked in politics for most of his adult life, I never picked up on it.
And as I think about it now....
I still don't see it.
Well, you can certainly make a case for it:
Spoiler
(Skrulls hiding among refugees, actually turning out to BE refugees, etc.), but I don't see it as a major feature of the film. In fact, the major focus of the Skrull plot is more generally about the fear of the Other.
I didn't have a problem with the lightly-drizzled-with-recent-headlines aspect of Captain Marvel, though I didn't think it was especially subtle, either. The story template that the-supposed-bad-guys-might-not-really-be-so-bad isn't that original, but it was a serviceable framework for a story. I just don't think they really took it very far.
If there was a problem with the script, it was that Captain Marvel herself doesn't seem very transformed by the events portrayed. I mean, for an origin story, she seems pretty much the same person at the end as at the start, just with a slightly better memory of how she got there. Of course, she ends up with less to limit the overpowered nature of the character, but that may not really be growth and I would argue that it makes it harder to fit the character into team-up movies. It also seemed like the acting from BL was a little on the wooden side. She's capable of better, so maybe that's another script or directing issue.
The movie is okay, but I don't see a persuasive case that it's among the top in the MCU.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 31, 2019, 03:19:46 AM
Well coming from someone who worked in politics for most of his adult life, I never picked up on it.
And as I think about it now....
I still don't see it.
Thats an appeal to authority.
Different people get different things out of movies, tv shows, comic book storylines, ect. For example, I know someone who thinks Riri William's current armor doesn't look like Hornet. I went back and compared the two again, and was unsurprised to see that they looked even more similar than I first thought.
In terms of Captain Marvel, I've not seen the film, so I can't comment on that firsthand. Not that I really care to get into a political topic about it mind you.
QuoteIf there was a problem with the script, it was that Captain Marvel herself doesn't seem very transformed by the events portrayed. I mean, for an origin story, she seems pretty much the same person at the end as at the start, just with a slightly better memory of how she got there. Of course, she ends up with less to limit the overpowered nature of the character, but that may not really be growth and I would argue that it makes it harder to fit the character into team-up movies. It also seemed like the acting from BL was a little on the wooden side. She's capable of better, so maybe that's another script or directing issue.
The movie is okay, but I don't see a persuasive case that it's among the top in the MCU.
I get the sense that is/will be a common opinion. The origin movies tend to be the lesser films in the MCU. Doctor Strange, I would say is about par with a Phase 1 MCU film. Ant-Man, which I really, really like, due to having a natural bias for the character/property, also would be on the lower run of MCU films IMO. Black Panther and Spider-Man I don't count in these because they were introduced in Civil War and the MCU skipped Spidey's origin entirely.
Yeah Stumpy, I pretty much entirely agree. It was a good, entertaining film, but I think Captain Marvel was, in many ways, one of the least interesting things about it. Honestly, my only real complaint is that I felt she was rather badly cast. I've heard that Larson is a good actress (and I thought she did a fine enough job), but she really seemed a poor fit in the roll to me. She seemed far too 'normal' for the soldier/warrior bad-a that she is supposed to be in the film. I just didn't really buy her in the role. I feel like it would be the equivalent of casting Mark Ruffalo as Captain America. And yeah, they've made her so powerful that I have no idea how in the world they'll fit her into any team movies.
Nonetheless, I enjoyed it, and Nick Fury steals every scene he's in, to no-one's surprise.
I'll watch it eventually for Nick Fury and the cat. And Jude Law. And Ben Mendohlson. And Gemma Chan.
Quote from: HarryTrotter on May 31, 2019, 04:59:13 AM
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on May 31, 2019, 03:19:46 AM
Well coming from someone who worked in politics for most of his adult life, I never picked up on it.
And as I think about it now....
I still don't see it.
Thats an appeal to authority.
I don't even know what that means.
The thing is, I'll have to see it again, but the Skrulls weren't really about assimilation. They might have been refugees, but it ain't like Central American refugees are the only refugees in the history of refugees. Of course there might be similarities, but Talos was all about finding his family and finding a home. Not about living the American Dream. The bigger theme was the Kree vs Skrulls. There's no such war theme in the Immigration debate. And lastly, the Skrulls ultimately left Earth.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/244/Appeal-to-False-Authority (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/244/Appeal-to-False-Authority)
And no offense,where you worked,has no connection to how other people view the movie.
Why would I be offended? It's your opinion. So as mine. This is not based on a factual subject. It's a matter of perspective. So that link isn't at all relevant to what I was referring to when I stated my work history. I work in politics. I am very familiar with the immigration issue. I have worked with immigrants. I have had to educated the public on issues affecting immigrants and immigration, legal or otherwise. I say this to demonstrate my familiarity with the subject. I never said you are wrong. I never said you don't know what you're talking about or I know better than you or anyone. I'm just saying that looking through my lens, knowing what I have known, I do not see the connection you're alleging. And earlier I told you why.
Which isnt really relevant,unless your trying to prove your the expert on alien immigration here.In which casr,cool I guess?
What are you trying to be an arse for? I expressed an opinion. My opinion. Just like you did. Your opinion is not fact. Your opinion is not truth. It's your opinion. Of course if someone is more familiar with something they'd know what the hell they're talking about. If you said Captain Marvel looks like my mom, I'd say no she don't because I actually know what the frell my mom looks like. But you're talking about something COMPLETELY subjective. And trivial. You think there was some deeper meaning in the movie. Fine. I'm glad you have an opinion. I just don't share it. What am I supposed to not talk? Am I supposed to agree with you or something? What?
I'm going to make a comment about this appeal to authority claim, while at the same time making an appeal to authority. Take that :P :
(Puts on rhetoric teacher hat)
I feel like, in order for the statement to be fallacious, such an appeal to authority fallacy would have to be a bit more intentional and directed. Shogunn's point seemed more about establishing his perspective than saying "I know everything about this subject."
Remember folks, let's be more gracious to each other and not assume that every differing opinion is an attack.
On an different note:
Now that Disney's bought Fox, lots of "what could have been" info has been coming out about Fox X-Men and FF movies. Unused scripts for Fan4stic, Matthew Vaughn's plans for X-Men if he were to continue with the sequels, Tom Hardy as a younger Wolverine, and most astonishing (pun not intended), a Fox movie featuring X-Men, Fantastic Four, Daredevil (who they had the rights to back then) and Deadpool (back before the Deadpool movies were made). Wow, Fox was trying to literally throw everything at the wall, weren't they? That sounds like it would have been a complete mess.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on June 01, 2019, 11:17:54 PM
What are you trying to be an arse for? I expressed an opinion. My opinion. Just like you did. Your opinion is not fact. Your opinion is not truth. It's your opinion. Of course if someone is more familiar with something they'd know what the hell they're talking about. If you said Captain Marvel looks like my mom, I'd say no she don't because I actually know what the frell my mom looks like. But you're talking about something COMPLETELY subjective. And trivial. You think there was some deeper meaning in the movie. Fine. I'm glad you have an opinion. I just don't share it. What am I supposed to not talk? Am I supposed to agree with you or something? What?
Not disputing that,and I wasnt trying to antagonize you.Its just that I find the take of "Im an IRL politician so" pretty funny. 😉
I'm still wondering if Wong eventually got a tuna sub.
Take or leave it but I spent the hard earned dollar to see Dark Phoenix and, noting those who know me know I tend to find the positive side of comic media, was a complete let down and I want a refund. Just a warning for anyone toying with the idea that it may appeal to them coming from an 80's up X-Men fan. If you want to watch Sophie Turner pretty much full stop you won't be disappointed otherwise it failed to deliver in any sense. I had to watch DOFP after just to get the taste out of my mouth and that taste was pretty funky. Sorry, and I love X-Men as much as I love Ninja Turtles and even managed to find redeeming qualities in X3 but just saying save your dollar and see Endgame again and watch this one when it comes out on television.
Well, I can't say that's surprising....at all....but that's still a shame. This is pretty much what I've been hearing, and it is also what I expected after the disaster that was the last one. Also...it doesn't take a genius to know that you can't adapt that amazing story without laying the groundwork for it, and seeing as we JUST meet their new Cyclops and Jean in the last movie and that they had pretty much zero personality, it wasn't a very good bet. :P
Well again even when it's a dud I can usually scrape something off and if nothing novelty. Not this one. First the plot...well just toss that out. I have no clue what they were thinking with that. So aliens...okay well just people that are supposed to be aliens with monotone behavior. So character development, I mean the past three films introduced a lot...well no. So and not a spoiler here because these are things that are not in the film: One of those cool Quicksilver scenes? Nope, in fact he doesn't star in it other than a cameo. So at the end I'm like well at least Stacy X is in it, that's sort of neat. At home I look online and it's Selene...somehow even though she appears to Stacy X. So that leave The Phoenix Force, who wouldn't pay to see that finally amiright? Well, how do you feel about comic book entities that are represented by clouds of space dust? Yeah...
Anyways big waste of time and it doesn't deliver anything even what it promised which was resolution for the fans. Just five or so actors showing some attitude but more that they're pretty much not into it and done with this franchise. And I mean I wish there was more to it, the franchise over all has given so much and this being the last one and all I would have thought they would want to do at least anything they never got to. Oh Dazzler is in it in her disco costume but again, cameo so you could just as well watch that on Youtube. Sigh. It's only competition is The Secret Life of Pets 2 and it's getting slaughtered by it if that says anything.
Yep, it's a shame. After the excellent course correction of Days of Future Past, it's amazing that they managed to squander that good will.
Quote from: SickAlice on June 08, 2019, 05:34:19 PM
Take or leave it but I spent the hard earned dollar to see Dark Phoenix and, noting those who know me know I tend to find the positive side of comic media, was a complete let down and I want a refund. Just a warning for anyone toying with the idea that it may appeal to them coming from an 80's up X-Men fan. If you want to watch Sophie Turner pretty much full stop you won't be disappointed otherwise it failed to deliver in any sense. I had to watch DOFP after just to get the taste out of my mouth and that taste was pretty funky. Sorry, and I love X-Men as much as I love Ninja Turtles and even managed to find redeeming qualities in X3 but just saying save your dollar and see Endgame again and watch this one when it comes out on television.
Sheesh, dude! Not sure if I'd go that hard! Ouch! Lol
Not gonna lie, I was disappointed with it too there were some entertaining parts..... but overall... that movie was nothing but a missed opportunity. I got one big question:
Spoiler
WTF killed Apocalypse? So... Jean had the Phoenix Force in the 80s. But she gets possessed by the Phoenix Force in the 90s... again? Or did she already have that power? They literally never even TOUCHED that. I mean, come on, that's a huuuuuge cliffhanger to just simply ignore and think you can make up for it with a whole different unrelated power.
Also, this is pretty much the worse villain I've seen. I swore JC was going to be a female version of Mastermind. Or at least an alien opposition that wanted to kill the Phoenix. Nope. Some obscure Marvel villain. Someone said it right, Jean is pretty much window dressing for someone else's story. In X3 it was Wolverine. Here it's Xavier and Mystique. By the way, I am completely over Mystique being a hero. Of all the mutants they could have gone with. By the way, the roster is quite weird. And with each movie in the rebooted time line we've gotten new mutants. Bishop, Warpath, Quicksilver, Psylock, Storm, Archangel, Nighcrawler, not to mention the cameos and returning characters. But the only new mutant we get is a cameo from Dazzler? That's it?
I do have to say, I did like the last part of the movie, even though the ending was meh. The fights at the mansion and on the train were pretty dope. Honestly that's almost all due to Magneto being pretty much that dude he's always been. He makes every scene he's in better.
But yeah. SA youre right about a lot of what you said. Can't say I want my money back. Was going to go anyway and I wasn't expecting much to begin with. Which is kinda unfortunate because despute the bad reviews i really like the prior ones dor the most part. Was happy Phoenix showed up to kill Apocalypse at the end. It could ha e only been that. Which it makes it so aggrivating that they screw this up. Again! Like how?
And I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler but making a X-Men movie that takes place in the 90s and you DON'T give Storm long hair and a white costume? That was a layup! And you missed!
This made me laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0s9mUXhHZ8
I'd go that hard, it's numbers speak for it here. In their defense I know they encountered every problem they could in making this film and I think they were just honoring their contract here. My work ethic says don't do a job if I'm going to do it halfway but I know when you're union it's a matter then of not getting paid and not getting the next job from your union. That's irony of course because it's what happened with X3 as well. In fact they lost what, six or more months of production was it on that one?
Here's a better question for you then the Phoenix/Apocalypse one, where did the mansion come from? And I mean it was there down to the very doors, trim boards, furniture and decorations on the desks. No explanation either it was just there. Anyways they screwed it up because it doesn't work in film, the Dark Phoenix story is what I mean. Like Apocalypse. I liked that one but wasn't very deep but that's because the source material wasn't. It's just Apocalypse is powerful as all get and whoops on everyone without breaking a sweat. So that movie delivered. This thing had the stuff the source material did it just doesn't look as good off paper. Personally I would have went with something inspired by Fatal Attractions. Big Xavier and his kids Vs. Magneto and his people showdown. To me that would wrap the storyline since the first. Have it be a confrontation of the various character developments.
I'm also not critically let down. We've been spoiled as comic fans and gotten pretty much everything we wished for in film and then some. The problem of course is in some cases we got what we wished for and found out it wasn't that good of a thing. Also this means moving on. I'm looking forward to New Mutants and what Disney has planned for all this. Looking forward to seeing something new with it.
I often pay to watch movies that differ from the source material, as I understand that there are limits to the format and things that work in comics that don't work in live action films. And, I often pay to watch movies that have some plot holes but are still mostly solid efforts and overall good entertainment. We were planning to see Dark Phoenix last weekend, but decided to put it off. I am now feeling lucky that we did. I am willing to wait (and pay less) to see a movie that is apparently thrown together, has massive plot holes, never decides what the actual challenge is, ignores things established just one movie ago, doesn't make use of things that made previous movies in the series fun, etc.
I mean, just as an example, why not have a Quicksilver scene? 1) They are fun to watch. 2) They lighten the mood. 3) It's fairly straightforward to waylay or dismiss the character somehow so that his obvious "win button" power isn't a factor in critical battles. 4) People have come to look forward to a slow-mo scene with him set to some classic music of the era. So, what the heck? Was it a decision specifically made to disappoint fans? "Here we have this thing that we have done in the last two movies and everyone loves it. Let's totally just drop it from our swan song."
Anyway, this whole thing is sort of a shame. Despite some shortcomings, I have generally enjoyed these X-Men movies. I know there is a pattern of making a series of movies and then rebooting them. But, if the movies are entertaining, I don't usually find myself waiting for the reboot while the last of the series is still in the theaters. I guess Fox has entered a new era of foreshadowing where they leave the fans longing for the reboot. <_<
Benton, that link was hilarious and several of the "Pitch Meeting" series from that YouTuber have been a hoot to watch. :lol:
Just watched Captain Marvel.
I'd say I enjoyed it more than I expected, or perhaps the same amount? Not even really sure. It's a MCU origin story, it's alright. Brie Larson's Captain Marvel was kinda half and half for me. Sometimes she's kinda aloof and subdued, sometimes she's kinda snarky, kinda like, almost every character in the MCU (except Thanos, obviously). But it definitely did a better job of selling the character than Endgame did. I found she and the movie were at their best during the buddy-cop stuff with Fury. Sam Jackson definitely stole the movie for me. Any time he was on screen I was paying attention. The Kree stuff I kinda went in and out. I got a bit distracted during the final end near the end, so I lost track of some of the characters, so I may have to go back and watch that part again or at least look up online what happened to specific characters.
The cat was cute, but somewhat underplayed, I could have gone for more of the cat.
I liked Jude Law, but I've liked him in other stuff so that wasn't a surprise. I'd heard Ben Mendohlson was good in this and I was not disappointed. He was kinda great.
Spoiler
One thing was wondering, how long do alien kitties live? Because if it was a normal cat it'd be long dead by now, but because it's an alien kitty it might live to show up in a sequel?
Another thing, we all talked about how silly it was how Fury lost his eye, but there was one bit at the end I didn't remember hearing from when the movie came out. In the final scene with Fury, Coulson's like "Sorry one of those Kree took out your eye." and Fury's like "Uh, yeah." So I guess Fury really did gave a B.S. story about how he lost his eye that was cooler, because he was embarrassed he lost it in such a lame way. Tomato brought that up when the movie came out. I'm glad that, now that I've seen the movie proper, I can see that they kinda covered their tracks there.
Rereading the posts from when the movie came out, I'm a little surprised that Annete Benning playing both Mar-Vell and The SI was kinda last minute thing, considering how well-integrated into the story it is. The SI using the likeness of someone you know and respect is one of the first pieces of information we're told in the film, and it kinda plans into the plot throughout the flick.
I liked CM as well. It had a hard time I think because it had to follow Infinity War so the bar was high. But I thought it was a straightforward action sci-fi flick. I was also an alterna-teen so a bit of appeal there. I also liked that they patched the plot holes revolving around SHIELD before going to Endgame with this. And it a had a cat that looks like mine so yeah, lol. Should Google the cats red carpet premier, that's fun to watch. Yeah the cat got to be up there on the stage next to Brie and everything, it mostly slept the whole time ha!
Yeah, I'm a cat person. I totally watched a few minutes of the "Goose the Cat" livestream tonight.
My Peanut says hello!
(http://catman.freedomforceforever.com/temp/100_0514.jpg)
Hello Peanut! :lol: He looks like our Fatty Bolger. :)
Yeah, I liked the bits with the cat. They were some of the more entertaining moments in the movie. Of course, I'm also a cat person. However, I'm also all that stands between my wife and her future as a crazy cat lady, so I fully expect that she will LOVE those bits when she sees the movie.
Ah, now, that's a handsome cat.
I need to post a pic of Diego, now that his leg is healed up and he has filled out.
Oh Peanut is obese or so the doctors say. He's just full I say.
I think the breakout performer in CM was Ben Mendelsohn. He brought all the charm to the film it needed. Just as I think Karen Gillan is the breakout in Endgame, award worthy and deserving of nothing but the big roles from here on out for Nebula if you ask me actually.
This may be an unpopular opinion but I actually liked Captain Marvel better than Wonder Woman. I hate to have to compare the two but it's what it is. And as a movie, this just made more sense to me. The plotholes in WW were too glaring and they seemed to try to do too much. It was fine but I just found CM more satisfying ultimately.
I still haven't seen WW, but CM was pretty sound, plot-wise, whatever is the case with the underwhelming portrayal of the main character.
I thought the Honest Trailer was pretty much spot-on. They even pointed out the cognitive dissonance I experienced between a de-aged Samuel L and watching him move. :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIvhu_YNCJg
SA, I agree. Mendelsohn was very surprising and enjoyable in that role. He's what made that whole twist work for me.
I liked it better as well. WW was all over the place, like Speed it was like watching several short movies in a row and seemed to jump from one thing to the next. I also felt Wonder Woman wasn't tested enough. Like she just walked through any trials waving her hand and pushing past anything. I like a character struggle in a story and them having to overcome a battle internally as well externally, I think it defines a heroic moment.
Interesting. I'd certainly agree that WW didn't really seem to meet her match in terms of opponents. But, she was challenged by circumstances and was unable to save the day on at least two significant occasions. Anyway, it's a fair criticism of WW that her actual combat opponents were not a match for her.
That said, if we are comparing, CM had that problem ten times over. She easily bowled over any opponent she came across, and that's
before she "unlocked her true power". By the end of the movie, I was wondering whether any of the other Avengers would even be needed for End Game, since she could likely fight Thanos to a standstill on her own. And, apparently, I wasn't alone, since End Game arranged things so that Captain Win Button was conveniently absent for the vast majority of the movie's combat.
Spoiler
IMO, a more significant problem for WW was that the movie seemed to be building to Diana finally understanding that people aren't always peaceful by nature and that wars happen whether or not some god of war is provoking them. Steve Trevor is very clearly trying to get Diana to acknowledge that possibility. But, the movie never really paid it off. Right when that realization should have been clear, actual Ares shows up and it turns out that he is apparently the reason the war continued, since it seems like peace was ready to break out as soon as he was defeated. At least in CM, when the protagonist realizes that her underlying assumption (all Skrulls == evil) is wrong, the movie doesn't immediately undermine the realization with a giant battle whose resolution implies the assumption was true all along.
Quote from: BentonGrey on June 15, 2019, 04:02:05 AM
I thought the Honest Trailer was pretty much spot-on. They even pointed out the cognitive dissonance I experienced between a de-aged Samuel L and watching him move. :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIvhu_YNCJg
I saw that Honest Trailer too and I remember that bit with Samuel L. I watched reviews for the flick by a few other content creators I watched and couldn't remember who made that observation until now. Fortunately, I'm no expert at pointing out dodgy CGI so I never noticed that bit about Fury until they pointed it out. On the other hand, I could spot the shots where the cat was CGI like a champ. :lol:
Haha, SS, I saw it pretty immediately. He LOOKED like a young man, but he MOVED like an old man. It's just one of those things that we process subconsciously.
Stumpy, yeah, like I said before, CM's power level is a major problem for the MCU.
QuoteIt's just one of those things that we process subconsciously.
"We" meaning "us old men", Pops? :P
.........maybe. :lol:
@stumpy: No, I meant tested as a person, the traditional storytelling mechanism of introducing the conflict to make the protagonist work for it thus to the rising action into the climax. WW was pretty at the climax from the word go. I would have more enjoyed a film say just about her exploits on the island and struggle with being an individual among her people say. Or becoming immediately and completely nonplussed by the world of man to the point of existential crisis. CM had a bit more to work out here given her life and memories of it was a lie. Who are the good guys and the bad was the test and the result whom she would chose to be. WW didn't seem very involved in her environment, again I think more because it jumped from setting and story to setting and story. It's hard to get at the heart of a character when it's structured like that. I did like it though, good popcorn thrill ride movie and she looked awesome. But I didn't walk away contemplating what I watched. I ain't saying CM is Endgame either but scifi and grounded people stories just appeal to me more personally. It just had more character. Funny off topic bit, part of CM took place in view of my front yard but was actually filmed in California and I could see the differences in the fauna.
And yeah, I'm projecting the mythology I know but what I described is the crux of the Greek pantheon and really would have made it more compelling and touching as a story. Big battle stories are fun mind you but I more read comics for the characters, not the wars.
Okay add to fact I grew up an alterna-teen and own everything by Trent Reznor. Strawberry ice cream, mint chocolate chip. You know how it is.
Not really familiar with Trent Reznor, but I do love mint chocolate chip. Always been a fan of mint flavored stuff.
Well, that's one of the reasons you're an oddball.... ;)
10 fish, does that equal one drunk Aquaman?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0aDXbi8prk
@DJ: Claypool is top ten for me and I've always been an oddball, called that by name. I is what I is, expecting normalcy from me is only setting oneself up for disappointment.
Haha! Sorry DJ, it's official now. You drink as much as one Aquaman. :lol:
So guys, I know this is super out of date at this point, but I've been going through some of those Pitch Meeting videos, and I just watched the Thor: Ragnarok one. It's hilariuos and a pretty much perfect send-up of everything wrong with that movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2kl4cVc5Dw
I feel somewhat vindicated.
Haha! :lol: Or does he drink....like a fish?
This tickles me especially because Aquaman is my favorite character, and I don't drink myself. :P
Because I'm a giant nerd, my response can only be one thing...
Whoah. Whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah......which version of Aquaman? :lol:
[And yes, that's inspired by a vaguely similar joke from Friends.]
@DJ: Sort of around to the point that there is no normal thus everyone is in their own right. At best people either go with the social norm or against but that in itself is no more than an abstract concept and not real. Neither is wrong in my opinion, do what works for you I say. But the judgement is because we all know we're a bit weird when we look at our own thoughts. Speaking of weird and Claypool it was that Fungi or Foe one for me. I may have the title wrong but I disregarded it quickly. I love that he reinvents himself for the sake of art yet of course sometimes that leads to unspeakable valleys being entered. That one...it just made me literally physically uncomfortable to listen to. He made it up with the Chocolate Factory cover to me though so it all shakes out.
I'm an odd out here on the drinking thing. I used to be a 24 hours falling down drunk, high Southern was my choice but I would just as well pound a jug of Apple Blush, whatever kept me from remembering. I quit both because I had to physically and because I was breaking my moms heart, wasn't easy of course either. I had to go into the mountains in isolation. Yet I'm not for sobriety, it's a case by case basis I think. Another if it works for you. But if it doesn't or the amount doesn't then you got a habit you need to alter. Through all of it I was pretty good at not letting it overcome me either in relationships nor obligations. I met obligations, paid my bills on time and was rather quiet so I didn't cause a lot of problems. But I drank to much hard stuff with no buffer and wrecked my stomach more or less and there she went. Now I have to take prescription bills for the anxiety so still my liver is under fire. We're just creatures dependent on chemistry at the end of the day however we find and or take it.
I just something fun about the new Far From Home
Spoiler
J. K. Simmons is back as J. Jonah Jameson! He was about the perfect actor for the role, so I'm glad they decide to just bring him back to the role instead of recasting it again, even if it's only a cameo appearance.
Hey, that's cool! You're right, he was perfect.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on June 28, 2019, 02:11:56 AM
I just something fun about the new Far From Home
Spoiler
J. K. Simmons is back as J. Jonah Jameson! He was about the perfect actor for the role, so I'm glad they decide to just bring him back to the role instead of recasting it again, even if it's only a cameo appearance.
HAHAHAHAHA!!! Are you serious! That's dope!!!!
I haven't seen it yet, not really in a rush to. Still full from Endgame. Did notice the stealth costume images online though and was wondering why he has open fingered gloves. Wouldn't that like leave his fingerprints everywhere and defeat the whole point of espionage?
Just got back from watching it. It was really really good.
I'd put it in the top 10, not quite top 5 MCU movies. And probably 2nd or 3rd best Spider-Man movie after Raimi Spider-Man 2.
Stay after the credits!
Yeah, I saw it last night too, but unfortunately I gotta say I don't think I enjoyed it quite as much as you did, DM. I mean if you held a gun to my head and asked, I'd say yes it was good, but I don't think it held up well compared to the first. And in regard to Spider Man movies overall, I'd still put Raimi's first two ahead of this as well.
It was solid, but in many cases seemed to try to do too much.
Spoiler
So, the whole plot pretty much revolved around Mysterio, a former Stark Industries inventor, with other bitter Stark former employees(including Ralphie from A Christmas Story) using the virtual reality system Tony had in Civil War to get control of Stark weapons and systems. I didn't mind it so much. Beck was quite the formidable villain. The way he kept throwing illusions or projections at Spider-Man even had me wondering what's real or not. Little disappointed they had to kill him. Was starting to wonder that with the postcred from HC that they'd build more to a Sinister Six entry. Since outside of Vulture, Shocker and Scorpion we go small (Itty bitty) Easter Eggs for Hydroman and even Sandman. But I really did like how they handled him that was a pretty big take away for me. Also Spider-Man was more seemingly in his element with the acrobatics and webslinging. Gotta say the way they decided to focus on his spidey senses was a little over the map(he dodges bullets but May smacks him in the head with a banana. But then he goes full Matrix at the end. It was cool but never really explained what the difference was).
What I didn't like or what bothered me is kinda the whole idea of the movie for starters. I think I'm use to the idea of Spiderman being a more localized hero. Like he said in the movie(and his tag line really)"I'm just your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man." Not that it was that bothersome, a part of me would have rathered seen his story continue in New York. Another thing that threw me off was Michelle/MJ. I can't say I was the fan of USM a many of you were but I heard your complaints about Ned/Ganke switch and that's my problem here. They are full bore shoehorning a entirely different character into this role. Not simply from the comics but she was pretty much a different character from the first movie. She goes from Michelle to MJ(as if that her name in the comics anyway). She goes from the emo loner weirdo to wearing dresses and makeup and being noticed by people in general. And then Peter goes from one movie nearly unaware of her existence completely to obsessing over her by the next movie. Just seemed really inconsistent.
But beyond that, the humor, while I laughed it seemed a little corney at times.
Again, overall I liked it, but some of these inconsistencies stuck out to me. Just thought the first was a stronger entry.
Oh and also
Spoiler
I did like their change to J. Jonah Jameson. Instead of the Daily Bugle being print media, they made him more of an Infowars/Alex Jones conspiracy type. Which would make it sensible that he's smearing a hero and they can also play off the identity reveal at the end being "fake news". I could see something like that happening.
I saw it and enjoyed it. The whole balancing the potential responsibilities of Spider-Man as a hero with the more globe-trotting reach that SHIELD/Fury wants against the friendly, neighborhood Spidey that Peter envisions is still a compelling storyline, overall. Yes, it's been done before during Raimi's tenure on the series. But, I think it still works and is even more of a potential burden with Spidey as part of the larger MCU.
Spoiler
Mysterio was a compelling villian and I think Gyllenhaal did a great job with him. However, it was bothering me when they finally revealed his backstory. I mean, Fury and SHIELD have been keeping a close eye on Stark for years. And, Quentin Beck was doing cutting-edge research for Stark. So, when Mysterio unmasks in front of many SHIELD agents (and Fury and Hill), no one checks him out? "Funny, there was a guy who worked for Tony Stark who looks identical to you and was working on holographic tech..." And, keep in mind the Beck isn't some shrinking violet type. He wants to be basically the most famous person in the world.
Anyway, not a show-stopper by any means. There are always some shaky parts of story. But, I would have though they could have come up with something different for Beck. Particularly since they had already used the "scientist that Tony ignored years ago comes back as a supervillian" backstory in Iron Man 3.
Saw it today. I definitely enjoyed it. It went in some directions I was expecting (but still enjoyed) and some I was not expecting, which certainly kept things interesting. Ned probably stole the show for comedy IMO. It was neat to see this version of Betty Brant have a bigger role. It was nice to see Happy Hogan be nicer to Peter after brushing him off in Homecoming. Fury was....alright in this, but those expecting another team-up like in Captain Marvel might be disappointed. Though Nick Fury's car had "MTU" (Marvel Team-Up) written on its license plate (another car's license plate had ASM - Amazing Spider-Man)
Still not a big fan of Michelle, but she was certainly used better in this film than in Homecoming. I'm also still not sold on Flash. Don't really like the kind of humor he's used for, and he comes off as a missed opportunity given some of the more interesting developments with the character in other iterations.
Spoiler
I had concerns for Jake Gyllenhal as Mysterio going in - I didn't think he looked the part, he didn't seem bombastic enough for Mysterio, but that was before the reveal. At which point it made sense that the guy with the movie star looks would be the fake hero, and Jake G started showing a bit more swagger in the role. Yeah, I agree that he's basically got the same backstory as Aldrich Killian from Iron Man 3 (with a little Adrian Toombs from Homecoming thrown in) but I liked how it kept Tony Stark as a part of the plot post-modem. And they even brought back the guy from the "box of scraps!" scene from Iron Man. That amused me.
I really enjoyed the trippy illusion scenes Spidey got caught in. Mind you Spidey seemed more noticably CGI than any other part of the movie, making the whole thing feel more like a cartoon than live action, but it also reminded me of the kind of elaborate sequences you'd see from the Spider-Man cartoons, comics or the Scarecrow and Mad Hatter sequences from the Batman Arkham Games. It even seemed to reference the Clone Saga with Spidey being dogpiled by other Spider-Mans.
I was surprised "Dimetri" never turned out to be The Chameleon. I was waiting the whole film for that reveal and it never happened. Apparently one villain was plenty.
QuoteHowever, it was bothering me when they finally revealed his backstory. I mean, Fury and SHIELD have been keeping a close eye on Stark for years. And, Quentin Beck was doing cutting-edge research for Stark. So, when Mysterio unmasks in front of many SHIELD agents (and Fury and Hill), no one checks him out? "Funny, there was a guy who worked for Tony Stark who looks identical to you and was working on holographic tech..." And, keep in mind the Beck isn't some shrinking violet type. He wants to be basically the most famous person in the world.
I'd say that's a fair criticism of the plot. There are a few other minor plot holes I noticed or read about later. One being that Spidey regained control of EDITH easily despite having to sign over control to Beck earlier in the flick. Beck also meets with Spidey on a roof despite it later being revealed that he doesn't in fact fly. How did he get up there?
I could have done without them killing Beck, but as others have theorized, he could still be alive. Spidey's Spider-Sense is often depicted as specifically warning him of physical danger to his person, so it's possible Mysterio faked his death and escaped by not attacking Peter again.
Also, as always, Peter's gotta learn to keep his damn mask on.
QuoteI did like their change to J. Jonah Jameson. Instead of the Daily Bugle being print media, they made him more of an Infowars/Alex Jones conspiracy type. Which would make it sensible that he's smearing a hero and they can also play off the identity reveal at the end being "fake news". I could see something like that happening.
Yeah, I think the way J. Jonah is used here makes sense, and I've seen him used similar ways in other recent iterations (Dan Slott's Spider-Man run in the comics post Superior Spider-Man, and the Spider-Man PS4 video game). The Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon and the 90's cartoon (which I grew up on and made me a fan) also featured Jameson as a host of a tv show.
Not sure how I feel about him looking more like J.K. Simmons the actor and less like J.Jonah Jameson the character, but that's probably a minor complaint.
That big reveal in the mid-credits sequence alongside J.K.'s cameo certainly made things interesting. I'm genuinely curious what they're going to do with the eventual 3rd movie....and where that business with Nick Fury is going.
Also, apparently the public thinks Captain America is dead?
Also, am I the only one who thought Ben Mendohlson's performance in this film was more goofy than in Captain Marvel? He kinda sounded like he was playing Talos drunk, presumably to make the scene feel more comedic.
Arkham games.... I can see that. That's a fair comparison. Makes sense.
Just saw it and caught up on spoiler tags.
Spoiler
I think they explained the issue with the Spider Sense just fine. The reason it's not going at the start of the film is because he's exhausted, conflicted about Tony's death (presumably the second he's now failed to save) and everyone wanting him to become the new Iron Man when, really, he's a kid and that's way too much to expect from him. Kid literally died, came back to life, and saw his surrogate father figure die within (from his point of view) the span of a single day. As he says repeatedly, he needs a vacation... and gets pulled into "Fury" nonsense instead, with even more pressure being placed on him in the process.
The Fury thing wasn't that great a shock to me. The whole dynamic with Fury just seemed off the entire film. He was straight up a jerk to Peter (whereas I was expecting something more akin to either USM the comic or the cartoon, with Fury as a mentor/father figure), was very petulant about both the door thing and Peter ghosting him, was WAY too trusting of Beck, etc. Him being Talos makes sense, and also allows them to do the whole "Fury isn't always actually Fury" thing we saw in the comics with LMDs.
Speaking of, I feel I should bring up that Beck isn't his real name, since I know someone mentioned "Well how didn't SHIELD know who this guy is?" During that scene where the crew is celebrating, a mention is made that someone came up with the Quentin Beck name as well as the dimension backstory. Given that it's actually Talos and he's working with a bare-bones post SHIELD team, I'm not shocked that was enough to throw them off the scent temporarily.
Had some time to think on it and...
Spoiler
That's a fair point about Beck....buuuut...
He still looks like Jake Gyllenhaal in the flashback... so apparently none of them (Fury, Hill, Dimitri, et al) could scan his face and ID him? Spider-Man did that in the previous film with Mac Gargan.
Speaking of Mac Gargan, there's a nifty theory online that in a future movie, now that both Jameson and Gargan are in this universe, we'll get the classic comics version of Gargan's Scorpion origin (i.e. Jameson hires Gargan to be a guinea pig for a experiment that turns him into the Scorpion, "The natural enemy of the spider" to defeat Spider-Man.) Wouldn't that be neat!
So, we just saw this, and everyone in my group liked it. It was fun, enjoyable, but not REALLY a Spider-Man movie in setting or large-scale feel. In themes, of course, it was. The kid was born to play Spider-Man. He's perfect. The first one was better, but not massively so. It was definitely funny and occasionally charming. The humor did feel a bit forced in a few spots, though.
My previous issues with this version continue and are definitely a bit magnified in this outing, but I'm still enjoying this take for the moment, largely because of the very solid overall quality. "Flash" bothered me more on this one, MJ probably a little bit less because they let her evolve beyond the obnoxiousness of the first one...though she has somehow turned into April Ludgate. I still wish they had just given her a different name. I'd be fine with Spidey having a different high school girlfriend, as MJ was always more of a college/adult character.
Mysterio was quite good, and I was very pleased on the whole with their take on him.
Spoilery thoughts, including my biggest criticism:
Spoiler
It was quite nice to see a relatively straight adaptation of the character. I can't believe we got such a faithful version of his costume. It was pretty great, and it made perfect sense as special effects. I agree that it's a tremendous waste for him to have died, but given his whole shtick, they can definitely have him back, even if it is only an illusion. I was also really glad to see them go pretty crazy with his illusions, even if it was probably a bit much, ha. It was great that we got to see Mysterio REALLY be Mysterio, for the most part. I might have preferred it if he had been more of a solo act, even if it would have been less believable.
My main problem with the film is highlighted by the climactic fight. The scale was just too big for Spidey. I know he's got fancy Stark tech in this version, but still. Spider-Man should totally be dead, "Peter Tingle" or not (and that made me laugh). But more importantly, the feel of the whole thing was really just wrong for Spider-Man. It was an interesting take on the character, but while the story made good use of the ideas, it just struck a false note for me.
And that's a shame, because I LOVE the idea of Peter as a successor for Iron Man....but an adult Peter. They've struggled to find a direction for grown-up Pete....and that's a great one...but in this movie, he's absolutely right. He's a kid, and he's not at ALL ready for the kind of pressure or responsibility that such a role would demand of him, especially for what it means in the movie universe! I don't absolutely hate it or anything, but I rather wish they had been able to tell some more traditional Spidey films for a few years before we reached this point. No matter how smart or how good Peter is, there is no way in Hades that a 17 year old should have that kind of power, ha.
On a secondary note, those drones really rather bork the MCU setting. If you can just dispatch a zillion cloakable kill drones to take care of any threat, you're done. Ha!
The Fury/Skrull reveal was interesting, and it did take care of my issues with Fury's portrayal/gullibility throughout the movie. I'm curious.
The big reveal of Peter's identity was really something. I'm curious to see where that will go, but MAN, the MCU REALLY hates secret identities. First MJ and then that? Sheesh!
Also, I agree with most of y'all; I liked seeing Simmons back and the move for Jameson makes sense, though I'm not as pleased about it as some of y'all. I've always liked J. J. J. as ridiculous but having a basic journalistic integrity. I hope we'll not see him go full shock jock.
It was good seeing Happy stepping into the mentor role and getting something to do in these films, even if the whole 'Peter with a mentor' dynamic still feels wrong to me.
So, on the whole, it was good. I'm glad I saw it, but I wasn't blown away by it.
I liked it better than the first. Still had that fun the first did but they didn't take it so far as to make it ridiculous. More streamlined and it had better pacing as well was more intimate. I actually care about their MJ which I did not in the first movie. I tried to grant it the whole time that this film wasn't trying to live up to Homecoming but rather Endgame, or at least that was going to be the expectation so I flushed Endgame from my brain first as well I could. They should have done a later release that said, too close to the hype of Endgame. I would have went for a release right about when the Endgame DVD hits. That way they would ensure more people see Endgame and may have an interest in it's epilogue. In the same way then they would pretty much be able to own the action figure aisles this Christmas. Anyways Mysterio is hella awesome, this movie could have been a flop and it would of worth it for that.
So...
Along with the new shows and movies announced at the SDCC... (I suppose I'll put it in spoilers, for now at least...)
Spoiler
(Hawkeye, Wandavision, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Loki and "What If" on Disney+ along with Guardians of the Galaxy 3, Black Panther 2, Captain Marvel 2, Black Widow, Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, Thor: Love and Thunder, and Eternals with promises of Blade, Fantastic Four and Mutants/X-Men on the horizon), we have Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings as well. So what are the chances we can get a cameo or a small part by Finn Jones in the movie?
Not really new announcements all things considered sans giving titles to a few. I'm glad they're pushing it down a few years, I think if they get greedy and don't allow for a lapse they'll create an over-saturation lull.
Well...subscribing to Disney+ was going to be unlikely but after seeing this line-up, Disney can just take my money!
Same, lol.
Quote from: Shogunn2517 on July 22, 2019, 04:20:53 AM
So...
Along with the new shows and movies announced at the SDCC... (I suppose I'll put it in spoilers, for now at least...)
Spoiler
(Hawkeye, Wandavision, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Loki and "What If" on Disney+ along with Guardians of the Galaxy 3, Black Panther 2, Captain Marvel 2, Black Widow, Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, Thor: Love and Thunder, and Eternals with promises of Blade, Fantastic Four and Mutants/X-Men on the horizon), we have Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings as well. So what are the chances we can get a cameo or a small part by Finn Jones in the movie?
I wouldn't bet on it. I had a much longer post but the board ate it (grr) so I'll cut to the chase:
Spoiler
As far as I know, the only character introduced in the tv shows to make it into the movies is Edwin Jarvis in Endgame, and as someone online pointed out, Kevin Feige was a producer on Agent Carter (which itself was spun off from a short on the Iron Man 3 Blu-Ray) so that might be the only reason he made it in. I don't think Marvel's in a hurry to bring in tv show stuff and risk confusing a section of the audience (that's Lucasfilm's job :lol:)
Case in point: we now know that Shang-Chi will feature the Ten Rings and indeed, the real Mandarin, a plot point that's been in limbo since 2014, from yet another Blu-Ray short, that a good chunk of the audience has probably never seen and might not even know exists (I didn't even end up seeing it until a year or two ago). By doing the plot in Shang-Chi, which will start brand new characters anyway, you can sidestep that issue. Just like how the Red Skull scene in Infinity War totally works without ever actually mentioning him being the Red Skull (unlike Endgame where Hawkeye for some reason does't recognize the famous Nazi war criminal for some reason).
On a different note, I actually didn't think of this until last night, but I wonder about the new Thor movie: 1) Who will the villain(s) be? I think, considering the apparently return to focus on romance, Enchantress could make a lot of sense. 2) Will Loki be in this one? Because if not, a Thor movie without Loki would be missing a big part of why people watched those movies in the first place.
On yet another note:
Zemo's back and this time he's wearing his freaking mask! And Taskmasker is going to be in the Black Widow movie! Yeah baby yeah!
Well, following in Marvel's intensely stupid footsteps, apparently Jane Foster is going to be taking over, not as the Goddess of Thunder, Thunderstrike, or any other appropriate name, but as "Thor," the personal name, the first name of Thor-freaking-Odinson. It's so stupid that it makes my brain hurt. So, I'm guessing that's going to put a different spin on things. A female thunder goddess is fine, and given what they've done to Thor, I'd have no problem with that, but you can't name her Thor, because that's a name, not a title. :banghead:
Sorry, this kind of stupidity gets under my skin.
It's not as simple as that in the comics, and I'll reserve judgement until I see the film. Frankly, I'm more concerned that they're using the same actress... No offense, she was ok in the first two films, but I don't see her pulling off the Amazonian looking Jane Foster Thor from the comics.
Back to the name... From what I understand, it was a dread pirate Roberts situation. When she did take up the name (because before that it was just what people were calling her and she didn't want to be called that) it was because Thor asked her to continue doing heroics in his name for reasons related to the story.
Pontificate away if you want, DJ! :)
'Mato, I am not judging the film itself and, in fact, given what they've done to Thor himself, replacing the character with pretty much anybody else makes me more receptive to them continuing the story. I didn't know they tried to explain it in the comics, but that's still sorta' weaksauce. It's just stupid for her to go by "Thor." It's like Pepper taking over as Iron Man and going by Tony or Babs taking over the cowl and going by Bruce.
Quote from: BentonGrey on July 25, 2019, 09:59:48 PM
It's like Pepper taking over as Iron Man and going by Tony or Babs taking over the cowl and going by Bruce.
I don't like her taking his name either, but you comparison makes zero sense. Thor's real name IS his hero name. They are one and the same. The example you gave are nothing like that. The Iron Man identity and name and the Batman one as well are separate from the person names, so passing them down does not make it necessary to pass on the personal name too. Thor's superhero name IS his personal name. He can't pass on his heroic identity to someone else without them using it.
See, I specifically used the Dread Pirate Roberts comparison because I felt it most appropriate in this instance. In the context of Princess Bride, there was very likely an original Dread Pirate Roberts, and Roberts was presumably his actual name. His successors took on the name because they realized that the name is what's important. "No one would surrender to the Dread Pirate Westley" and so too would no one surrender to the Mighty Jane, at least no one in Thor's general weight class. As cat correctly points out, the name is both his real name AND his superhero identity. And there have been other Thors before now: Beta Ray Bill WAS the main protagonist under the Thor title, as was Erik Masterson. And Erik was *absolutely* called Thor by the public (it's why he changes his costume to that 90s getup he had after Thor came back).
"Whosoever hold this hammer, if (s)he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." -in the context of the original Lee comic, that meant Donald Blake becoming Thor Odinson. It may not be as literal now, but I don't see any difference between Jane doing good in Thor's name temporarily and Dick doing good in Batman's. Or, and I cannot stress this enough, Erik and Beta Ray Bill doing good in Thor's name with Thor's own powers.
And if it's about the fact that she didn't move on to a different identity after Thor inevitably returned like Beta Ray and Erik did... she has. She's become one of the Valkyrie. And with all but one being dead ATM due to what we learn in Ragnarok, I can see them going in that direction here as well.
Quote from: Deaths Jester on July 26, 2019, 12:07:35 AM
<points Benton to the parts wherein he said he had way, way too much on his place nor the time> See my previous post, BG!
Darn, and here I was hoping to provoke DJ into getting back involved more! :P Glad to see you around nonetheless, you undead scoundrel.
Cat, I disagree. It's far from a perfect analogy, but I think the point is valid. It's just clearer in their cases because, as you say, their nom de guerre is different from their personal name. Yet, those are, effectively, their titles, and Thor also has a title, God of Thunder, though it is not his adventuring name. It's the title, and powers, that a new character inherits, as it is the title that Dick inherits from Batman, etc. 'Mato points out that Erik Masterson went by Thor for a while, but wasn't he actually bonded WITH Thor during that time? Jane should follow the example of that great amphibian hero, Throg, and be Jhor. ;)
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/throg/4005-30596/
Also, I sorta' want to read some 'Frog of Thunder' stories now....
Anyway, the whole thing just seems intensely silly to me, whatever justification is used for it in universe.
In terms of the movie itself, it's interesting that they're sticking with Natalie Portman in the next movie. I sorta' thought she wasn't interested in doing more Marvel movies. I suppose a chance to be the heroine instead of the love interest changes things some. It's a crying shame they killed off Anthony Hopkins' Odin (for many reasons), but it would have been really cool to see him interact with her in light of their little mini-arc from
Dark World.
Kommando, nice to see you around. Glad you enjoyed
Homecoming! You didn't get the sense that it broke from the feel of a Spidey story during some of the big, globetrotting, jet-flying moments? I enjoyed it plenty, but I definitely felt like it struck a note that didn't resonate with Spidey for me. Holland, however, was very much Spider-Man, even in those scenes.
You're friends with Moorcock? How cool!
QuoteSo guys, I know this is super out of date at this point, but I've been going through some of those Pitch Meeting videos, and I just watched the Thor: Ragnarok one. It's hilariuos and a pretty much perfect send-up of everything wrong with that movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2kl4cVc5Dw
I feel somewhat vindicated.
So Benton, I know this is super out of date at this point, but ended up in a sketch-comedy-on-Youtube mood tonight and I finally got around to watching the Pitch Meeting video for Thor: Ragnarok. Yep, you're right, it's pretty much a perfect send-up of everything wrong with that movie.
Letting Jeff Goldblum be Jeff Goldblum as a substitute for actually developing the Grandmaster as a character...yeah, pretty much. I mean, mind you, you could pretty much say the same thing about Grandmaster's fellow Elder of the Universe, The Collector, just being Benicio Del Toro in Guardians. Hmm, considering Thor:R seemed to take after Guardians for the comedy, maybe that's why they ended up going that route?
I honestly haven't given much thought to Jane Thor movie. Too far in the horizon to think about it and I'm trying to just absorb what they had made so far and develop a sense of nostalgia towards it. I do give them credit if they are really giving Portman some ample screen time. Love her or loath her Disney does have a good takeaway from her two franchises over and sort of owes her the chance. "If" keyword. Could be a whole five minutes of the film, could be later things change even or she changes her mind about it, it's happened before, again who knows right now.
If they chose to franchise the comic idea I wouldn't blame them either. Stan Lee once said about Ben Reilly "The only thing that sells better than one Spider-man is two of them." which is more relevant in this era I think. Also I think the days of character stake claiming are long past regardless of any feels about it. If Bruce Wayne becomes Superman in canon next month I would raise an eyebrow but wouldn't think twice about it, switcheroo has just become as common in superhero comics as capes are now. I dunno, read the current comic issues? There was something like eight to ten different Thors happening there. And Jane is Valkerie now or something, got to switch your cosplay up every now and then don't ya know.
Either way the next Thor movie just isn't in my solar system right now so eh? I'm also too busy dreaming about a Captain Marvel 2 that takes place in the past after the first and deals with Carol meeting Jessica Jones as Jewel and such. I can dream and will continue to enjoy my headcanon over what ever they really make. Not to say I won't enjoy what they do but like anyone I have this pretty specific to me version of everything laid out in my imagination space and nothing in real life ever matches it.
"In death, a member of Project Thor has a name. His name is Robert Paulson."
Sorry I had to. I regret nothing. Well okay somethings. Everything mostly. I regret everything.
I'm mostly just worried about Portman not being able to pull off comedy relief as well as Hemsworth. I don't care who wields Mjolnir, just be as entertaining as Ragnarok por favor.
Don't believe everything you hear. The reported dispute was specifically about Kevin Feige producing the next film, with Disney trying to use that to extort a RIDICULOUS 50/50 split of all profits on the next film. Sony said no, and it's got everyone in a panic over the whole arrangement. However, there are some sources that claim the next Spider-Man film IS still part of the MCU (the contract stipulated it'd continue to a third film if the second made over a billion... it did), and even if it's not... right now, who cares? On the Marvel side, the next films are Black Widow, Eternals, Shang Chi, Dr Strange 2, and Thor 4. None of those films need or should have Spider-Man. And on the Sony front, they've got Morbius, Venom 2, and some other films coming right now. By all accounts negotiations are ongoing, so both sides have time to resolve this before the third SM (if they even need to do so, I'm not 100% on that source.) or Avengers 5 goes into production.
This whole thing, all of it, is a publicity stunt by Disney. They made an outrageous offer, it got rejected, and then leaked proceedings to the press to whip the fanbase into a frenzy and force Sony's hand.
What? I don't... Spade, I listed all the upcoming MCU films for the next two years to demonstrate that SM isn't needed for any of them. I didn't use Eternals as an example of anything else, nor was that film specifically singled out in any way. It's not even the first I listed.
Credit for kkhohoho on this one, he brought it to my attention.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ms-marvel-series-works-disney-1234216 -ms marvel show coming to Disney+
I'm with Tomato here. Things change fast for one and there's a difference between what is truth and what is presentation. Not that long ago we would have been on a comic forum saying Spider-man could never have been in a Disney film because of red tape yet it happened and almost overnight, thus can happen again. Mostly and the same goes for the Hulk it's a tug of war about more money but in reality Sony is no position to make demands, they're media outlet is hurting. But corporate types just don't think like that. When they were losing they made the deal but once Endgame came about they saw profit thus got demanding again. Same goes for Fox here as well. Any company really, it's the way stocks and shares actually work. Think like Ferengi and Rules Of Acquisition. And when it comes to worldwide household products art has less to do with it and the money people have the final say.
Add a pride issue. Toy's R Us is a great example, I used to work for that company. It's "went bankrupt" as anyone now knows but the truth is it was bankrupt two decades ago. They could have preserved it by being a distributor given the popularity of online ordering increasing rapidly or just for a large outlet like Wal-Mart yet they ran it all into the ground out of pride. In the end they tried having us set up kids barbers, no joke, just to try and make the ends meet. That's why they went out. Compare it to comics. Say Image folded, the market just got so bad and they couldn't afford their own overhead. The option would be to sell to a more stable and expansive entity, say DC Comics and Warner Bros. But you know well they would fight that tooth and nail even if it meant burning their own house to the ground because simply it is their child. They created this and it's hard not to have pride in that as much ones own achievements.
Anyways in short I have no doubt the MCU will have these characters in it but they just can't announce that legally right now lest the shareholders retaliate. It's just not profitable for any of these companies to refuse to play ball but it is a matter of a contract every team is satisfied with is all.
It's an entire month and change too late, but the Jameson thing was discussed earlier in this thread prior to that above post. For those wondering, the reason why it's coming up again is Sony's been releasing some internet videos starring Jameson.
Who, by the way, supposedly is going to appear in Sony's Morbius the Living Vampire (starring Jared Leto as Morbius - yes this is a real movie) I'm like "sure, why not, I mean, I'm probably not even going to watch it until at least the On-Demand release, but whatever. It'll have at least one thing going for it. "
Also I saw Dark Phoenix a few months ago. It wasn't easy, because Disney blocked it from being released on the On-Demand, or the Playstation Store, after they got the distribution rights so I had to rent it from
Youtube of all places, but I did see it.
I didn't think it was
terrible (though I'm biased towards this series) but it certainly wasn't good. The word to describe it is "joyless." There are no jokes, no gags, no Quicksilver setpieces (Quicksilver is absent for about 80% of the film) and the traditional F-Bomb isn't even played for laughs this time. And the big surprise they left out of the trailers was supposedly neutered by behind the scenes issues. Of which this movie had a lot. Not surprisingly, but still heartbreaking. They took a loss on Apocalypse so they didn't have enough money, the Fox deal was going through so they had to wrap up the story fast, cut out and change a bunch of stuff so they could release it Justice League style. The one interesting new element we haven't seen before (outside of spoilers, and other than the brief outer space sequence) is lip service to the old "Professor Xavier is a jerk" angle that pops up in the comics from time to time.
For whatever it's worth, Chris Claremont praised the film on the merits that it put Scott and Jean to the forefront. Which, hey, if you leave out Wolverine, then yeah, that'll happen.
A list of things that tragically never came to pass:
-For starters, they were going to spend more than one movie telling the Phoenix Saga. And also way more outer space.
-A deleted appearance by original Colossus actor Daniel Cudmore (we apparently don't know who or what he was going to play)
-The ending would have been reshot to have more X-Men take part, but it was deemed too expensive (instead we got the train sequence, in which the mutants are being carried away by the Mutant Containment Unit (and yes, that does abbreviate to MCU and no, it's not a coincidence.)
-The original ending was scrapped because it was believed to be too similar to another recent superhero film (the popular guess was Captain Marvel, but Kinberg eventually said it was Civil War. Yep, we could have had X-Men: Civil War)
-Jessica Chastian was originally going to play a different character (I'm not going to say who since her role in the movie is spoiler, but if you're curious you can look it up).
-Jackman was supposed to be in it as Wolverine, but they opted not to do that because they didn't want him interacting with a teenage Jean Grey (even though that happened in Apocalypse, but whatever)
-Psylocke and Jubilee were supposed to appear but Olivia Munn was doing Predator and Lana Condor was doing a movie at the time. Lana did get a spiffy new comic book gig though: the short lived Sci-Fi Adaptation of "Deadly Class".
Truly, the Fox X-Men franchise went out with a whimper. Oh well, Legion was aces at least. :thumbup:
Also, anyone hear heard the speculation about Wandavision? I'm going to put it in Spoiler Tags because even though I don't know 100% if it's gonna happen it's looking pretty likely and it's the kinda thing some people will probably enjoy being surprised by.
SERIOUSLY, IF HAVEN'T HEARD THE THEORY YET, AND YOU'RE DEAD SET ON BEING SURPRISED BY BIG MCU STUFF IN THE FUTURE DO NOT READ THIS!!!
Spoiler
Here's what we know:
-Wandavision is a partial adaptation of Tom King's "Vision" series, but with Wanda and a now alive Vision as the family unit.
-It's coming out very close to the release of Doctor Strange: The Multiverse of Madness.
-Scarlet Witch is in DR. Strange 2.
-Loki's in it too.
Here's what we think is going to happen:
Wandavision is also the MCU's adaptation of "Scarlet Witch goes evil and starts warping reality with her powers to make babies, bring people back to live, ect" AND she's the villain of Dr. Strange 2. And apparently Dr. Strange teams up with Loki to stop her.
And of course, those kids in the comics eventually became members of the Young Avengers. And who knows, maybe the long-speculated Quicksilver reappearance will finally happen.
I hope this turns out to be true, because if so this is going to be nuttier than pecan pie!
I can safely say I'm looking forward to Legion season 4 - I mean "Wandavision" when it finally comes out.
I'm glad to see the X-Men franchise conclude on that end honestly. They did great things with it but it's been a rocky relationship at best. If anything with Disney's resources they may be able to reach higher plateaus with it and we could end up seeing things finally that fans have been eager to.
Tessa Thompson (Valkyrie) has confirmed that Christian Bale will playing a villain in Thor 4.
Haters gonna hate, and yes, we've all made of his Batman voice, but IMO Bale has been a pretty reliably great actor with some really good movies under his belt (Equilibrium, for example; I've also heard he was really good in Ford v. Ferrari recently)
My concern isn't whether he'll be good in the movie. My concern is who the heck is he going to play? The Thor movies have already burned through pretty much all the Thor villains other than Amora the Enchantress (who, as I've mentioned earlier, I'm expecting to be in "Thor: Love and Thunder" anyway). Some have speculated that he might play a non-Thor villain who happens to be appearing in Thor, which is a real possibility and might be their remaining option. Some have even suggested Doctor Doom, which certainly be interesting but it would be pretty bizarre for him to appear in a Thor movie of all places.
I mean, it could be the godslayer character that caused Thor to be depowered in the comics.
I don't much care for Bale as a person, but he's a fine actor, and I'm sure he'll do a good job with whatever they give him. It is curious, though. I wonder who he might play. Maybe Seth? He might be good as Seth. If the Thor movies weren't guaranteed to be very much not to my taste going forward, I would actually be super interested in a movie bringing in Seth and his mythos.
I guess it kind of depends on if the story takes place on Midgard or off-world. If it's mostly on Earth, I could see him maybe playing The Wrecker. Even given some of the odd casting choices in the past, I doubt they'd cast him as The Absorbing Man.
Ah, yes, the Godslayer. I was thinking of him earlier. Seth is a good guess too. I didn't think of him.
Other possibilities:
-The Serpent (though in other iterations he's closer to Odin's age)
-Grey Gargoyle
-Zarko the Tomorrow Man
-Paragus of the Dark Gods (though I think I and Dan Jurgens are the only people who ever cared about the Dark Gods)
-Perhaps a more human version of Jormundand, the Midgard Serpent?
-Mongoose?
-A new version of an old villain (say, Surtur reborn in a new, more human body)
-A new Executioner (they have been a whole bunch in the comics, I was actually looking that up a while ago)
Absorbing Man already appeared in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. but I suppose the movies could either ignore it, recast him or have him be a different Absorbing Man.
Grandmaster wasn't a Thor villain (nor was Red King from Planet Hulk, who Grandmaster was subbing for) nor were Korg and Miek Thor characters. And Guardians basically just used whatever space-based characters they wanted (that weren't tied up in Fantastic Four movie rights issues) so yeah, it doesn't necessarily need to be a Thor villain. It could also be a setup for a later movie (for example, Grandmaster makes a cameo during the end credits of Guardians 2).
Honestly, though....
Apparently there's the rumor that...
Spoiler
the Loki series on Disney Plus will introduce Kang as possibly the next big bad of the MCU.
If that were the case, I could see Bale playing him. I understand it'd be quite the commitment, but considering all we've been hearing about this film.... and the shared universe, I have to think this is completely in the realm of possiblity.
Hmm, I could see that. I would actually really like to see him in a movie, as he's a fantastic villain. However, I REALLY hope they don't make the Thor movies integral to whatever they're doing, because I won't be watching any more of those.
Of course, I've had my day. I got an epic that was really quite good and mostly what I wanted, so I suppose I can't complain.
I like Bales acting though tbh every time I see him in a role I can't help but have flashes of American Pyscho. It was hard to watch him as Batman with those images in my head. Not saying I have anything against Huey Lewis and The News of course...
Shogun:
I was thinking of him the other day. My all-time favorite Marvel villain. I've been waiting a long time for him to show up and if he does I hope they do a great job on him.
Benton: given your feelings on Thor, I can't say I'm surprised (I finally rewatched Endgame on Disney Plus just last night, including Big Thorbowski, so I've got a big stupid grin on my face as I type this). But that film being important going forward may be a very real possibility. It's (probably?) the only Phase One Marvel movie still continuing, and given how Ragnarok ended and IW began....
As long as you're remembering how much those movies have frustrated you, I might as well bring up the other idea I had for Bale's role.
Baldur the Brave, finally appears in this series, and for some reason he's a villain.
I don't know how likely it is they'd do that, but I'm sure it would infuriate longtime Thor fans.
Well, that would be par for the course, then. :P
Ohh, and I'm sure it will be important going forward, because of course it would be. :angry: Ha. And, once again, I have nothing against the idea of a broken Thor or the premise of the character being funny; I have a problem with bad storytelling that sacrifices every single emotional beat for cheap laughs, as opposed to balancing them like good storytelling does. But, I'm sure y'all are plenty sick of hearing me gripe about it, ha.
Pretty sure we all gripe about comic stuff and because we all care a great deal about it. I don't have a lot of opinions about it myself because frankly I don't care. When it comes to the first movie I'm invested. When it's at the fourth I figure the company is just milking it and it becomes a take it or leave it proposition. Likewise the Jane Thor idea. I liked the comic. More I liked the Unworthy Thor aspect. I like seeing Thor challenged, I think it fleshes out the character. However I feel they're using the Jane idea in film because it equals merchandise as opposed to using it because a writer had an idea for a story so it's probably going to end up coming off inauthentic. That in mind I'm not invested in it either.
Quote from: BentonGrey on March 10, 2020, 04:35:04 AM
Well, that would be par for the course, then. :P
Ohh, and I'm sure it will be important going forward, because of course it would be. :angry: Ha. And, once again, I have nothing against the idea of a broken Thor or the premise of the character being funny; I have a problem with bad storytelling that sacrifices every single emotional beat for cheap laughs, as opposed to balancing them like good storytelling does. But, I'm sure y'all are plenty sick of hearing me gripe about it, ha.
Yep, we've talked about it before. I see both sides of the debate very clearly. On the one hand they've done to the Thor mythos what Legends of Tomorrow did to itself, on the other hand, I can't deny some of it is funny and Chris Hemsworth is clearly having a ball doing this version of Thor.
Fun story, I don't know if I've said this one before, but a few years ago (2010 apparently ; wow where did the time go? Though appropriately close to the release of the first Thor film) Peter David did an arc of X-Factor where they teamed up with Thor, and he was characterized as a drunken, simply minded buffoon. And it bugged the hell out of me. In retrospect it feels weird that I'd be bothered by it. I mean, that doesn't mean it's good characterization, it's more like I lost a war of attrition and got used to it. Jason Aaron's very goofy Avengers run in the comics, that's going on right now (he's also the writer who did the Jane Foster Thor run, come to think of it) has made Thor more like his movie counterpart as well. So little by little, we may eventually get to a point where younger generations never knew Thor wasn't like this.
I haven't read the Jane Thor run (though I did read the Avengers run that had her in it, and I enjoyed that) but some of the scenes I saw online I thought were pretty ham-handed. The actual run could be good though. Maybe I'll have to read it sometime, I've got some $1 reprints from that era I still haven't read yet, so I'll definitely read it at some point. In any case, like others, it'll be on the movie's shoulders to sell me on it.
QuoteWhen it's at the fourth I figure the company is just milking it and it becomes a take it or leave it proposition. Likewise the Jane Thor idea. I liked the comic. More I liked the Unworthy Thor aspect. I like seeing Thor challenged, I think it fleshes out the character. However I feel they're using the Jane idea in film because it equals merchandise as opposed to using it because a writer had an idea for a story so it's probably going to end up coming off inauthentic.
I have a adult nephew who said he thinks Marvel's movies are starting to be a cashgrab. Maybe I'm a fanboy, but I can't see them as that. Not yet, not unless the quality starts to decline noticeably. As for the Thor thing, I was just thinking the other day due to rewatching Endgame. Hemsworth's the only one from the original three who's still doing it. And Marvel's trying to bring in other characters that can fill the void (remember, there hasn't been an actual "Iron Man" film since 2013) so I can't blame them for trying to set things up so they can keep doing things without Hemsworth. I assumed he was going to be joining the Guardians. On the other hand, people are expecting Florence Pugh as Yelena Belova to replace ScarJo as Natasha once she's brought in for the Black Widow movie. As for merchandise, I was under the impression that the action figures of female characters don't sell as well but I could be wrong, and even then there's still Funko Pops and T-Shirts and such.
Other enticing nuggets....
-Vin Diesel (Groot) says he's been talking with "The Director" (that would be Thor 3 and 4 director Taika Waititti) about the Guardians appearing Thor 4.
-Mark Ruffalo will appear as Hulk in the She-Hulk Disney +.
To quote the man himself: "I see this as an absolute win."
-Wolfsbane and Dani Moonstar will have a same-sex relationship in the New Mutants movie.
I've heard people argue about this online, which I was....a little surprised by? See, I don't know about a lot of other people, but I've actually read the original Claremont X-Men comics, and to say it was implied Rahne and Dani had feelings for each other is to stretch the meaning of the word "imply" to the absolute limit.
Here's an exchange from the original comics:
Dani: '-you're not alone. Moira loves you, and I-' Rahne: 'I know. But that doesn't make me ache any the less.'
There's a fansite I remember fondly (still up, happy to see) that poured over all the scenes suggesting their feelings for each other....dozens of them....
They are a cashgrab though. I mean they can still have quality going on regardless but that's the game here. Black Panther equaled big accolades, Avengers big numbers. Black Widow seems like a smart move from a story standpoint but it's clear it didn't happen until after Endgame pulled in massive revenue. Just saying. Meanwhile you don't see any Inhuman sequel in the works because well, didn't make any money. I may have steered ya in the wrong direction a bit there but I don't see the Jane Thor thing as anything but a commercial move. And female action figures? Disney owns Barbie dude, problem solved. It's a hard pill to swallow but movie companies don't actually care about the opinions of comic readers all that much. We only make up a very small percent of the world wide movie going audience. I try and look at that angle when I'm watching the films. Also helps me to not diminish the experience for myself when it doesn't align to the source material. In that same vein I make note that investors care about a return investment and profit so it's always a factor. Has to be. You can't have art reach the masses without money so that trade-off will always exist whether people like it or not.
I digress though, on a personal note, not an externalized one Silver, I'm not heavily invested in fourth part films nor a live action Jane Thor regardless. Just doesn't stimulate me. Now if you told me a big budget big screen trilogy of Neil Gaimans Sandman was coming out or something I might be a little moreso because it's something I haven't had yet. In sort of the same way I'm more excited about the New Mutants horror styled movie. It's set to be a different type of thing than I've seen so far. I like variety, what can I say? Sometimes both halves of a persons opinion matter regardless of how you slice it.
Speaking of I see New Mutants is delayed for the virus. People seem upset but a.) what's a little longer on this one and b.) if they release it when people are apprehensive about cramming into a theater it's going to get lower numbers and an unfair shake. And yeah the attitude doesn't make sense though it's always been a thing in the fandom that I remember. Also noting many of the outspoken fans online are not eighteen, rather very young children posing as adults to get in the door hence their opinions on things tend to stem from the grade school life perspective. Imo never give one about a fictional characters sexual preference. Not much for real life people either. Life is short and pretty painful, if you can find happiness with someone more power to you regardless of who they and you are. But still yeah, fandom lights up about anything. They could change the color of Thors cape and fandom lights up. Someone explained it to me once that it's just how some people show appreciation and get involved with a thing, even the ones that are constantly outraged. Makes enough sense, probably not healthy for the individual but all the same.
So two things:
1) As I'm sure everyone one knows, pretty much everything is getting cancelled, postponed or put on hiatus due to Coronavirus. So everyone take care of yourselves, check on your loved ones every once and awhile and get out your backlog of shows and movies on disc, video games, and books and comics, because it's gonna be a while. Personally? I just finished my Hobbit Extended Blu-Rays.
New Mutants's release and some of the location filming for Falcon and Winter Soldier (among many other things) are postponed, which is very frustrating, because I was really looking forward to both of those.
2. Some internet commentators have brought up a very likely guess as to who Bale is playing: apparently in Aaron's Thor run one of the villains is a guy in charge of Roxxon Oil who's a shifty guy in a business suit who sometimes turns into a giant Minotaur (I can't remember his name and I don't feel like looking it up right now) Which I can believe, since Bale's got a bunch of movies where he's walking around in a nice business suit being smarmy. So yeah, I can totally buy that. Plus giant minotaur? That sounds like a big CGI boss fight at the end of the film to me.
Oh yeah everything. Even the Democratic Convention and Biden/Bernie debate in Phoenix this weekend. To me that was the sign to go into lockdown aside we're under a storm disaster in the desert right now. I figure those two had a lot riding on that event and if they bailed this is probably more serious than the media wants to frighten the public about. Not exactly comic movie stuff sorry but I figured noteworthy. Travel safe friends.
The Minotaur yeah. He's Hulks villain now. Really in that Thor run Dario Agger (?) wasn't the villain as much as oil fracking was. Kind of boringly topical for fantasy if you ask me. The Hulk comic turned him into something a bit more fascinating.
And hey you'll still see New Mutants. The wait will probably make better really instead of trying to go out with things as much a mess as they are right now. Plus there's a better chance the theater will toilet paper in the bathrooms. Least it's my feelings about it. I don't want to go and try and enjoy a film with the world around me in such a frustrated state. Again at the moment I couldn't anyways, our roads are literally gone and replaced with lakes right now but you know what I mean.
I saw The New Mutants trailer when I went to go see Invisible Man, and while I did see it before and thought it was cute making a horror genre from a superhero film, but if in the time since they recut it or did some reshoots, however it happened, this one looked pretty terrifying.
Yet another postponement is unfortunate, but just think about what happen with Frozen II, wouldn't releasing The New Mutants on Disney Plus be an option?
I'm kind of thinking after all the nonsense the cast and crew went through just to get that sucker released they probably wouldn't settle for anything less than a theatrical release no matter when it has to happen and to be honest I wouldn't blame them. I'm tingly for it myself. I won't say I'm looking at it thinking it will be a masterpiece but I love 1.) New Mutants 2.) Magik 3.) horror and 4.) Anya Taylor-Joy so...yeah. I'm in, I'm all the way in. In fact Taylor-Joy could star in a movie about a milk carton and I would probably be eager to see it. Pretty much been sold on her act since Split, matching moves and occasionally upstaging McAvoy is fairly impressive.
Indeed. I've been kinda rooting for New Mutants every step of the way, so I'm hoping it gets a proper release, turns out to be decent, gets a positive reception, and if released in theaters, makes some money.
I too was a fan of Anya-Taylor Joy in Split. Plus I was a huge Arya Stark fan while Game of Thrones was going on, and I've been looking forward to her (Maisie Williams) playing Rahne every step of the way.
The thing to remember, to keep in mind, is that it is still a Fox X-Men movie after all, and one without Ryan Reynolds, Jackman, Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen, MacAvoy or Fassbender. It's probably going to be pretty good but not up there with the better MCU movies. It's a product of its time: Fox trying a few different experiments with the X-Men property to see what would work and find an audience.
Oh I'm expecting subpar. Then again I grew up on B...jeez some of them should be D labelled, and have a taste for all that so it'll probably fall in my personal nostalgic favor regardless. That and again the sheer dedication they've shown to it. If they believe that hard in it it makes me want to as well. And if it stinks well, they can't all be winners so no loss. Personally I think we're in a privileged time, maybe partly driven by coming up in a time that films could be shoddy yet make the grade and especially when it came to ones that were fandom inspired and it leads me to feel like I'm getting the good stuff whether it wins awards or not. Just my personally stance on that mind you.
Rest in peace Chadwick Boseman and thank you for the inspiration.
Shocking and sad news. In any case, I always thought he was an awesome Black Panther. I remember when I saw Civil War in theatres, of all the things I enjoyed in that flick, when we were leaving at the end the first thing I asked my brother was "What did you think of Black Panther?" and his answer was "I thought he was awesome."
Agreed. I was shocked to hear about his cancer and then death. Appreciate every day, I guess. Criminy!
I kind of wonder if he had told Marvel Studios that this was potentially an issue for him, with regard to future BP movies?
I was thinking the same. I thought about the plan they had for Disney+ shows and how BP wasn't really included. I think some of the central people probably knew. Bob Iger's farewell sounded fond but not surprised.
The announcement of his death broke the record for most liked Tweet, beating one by Barack Obama by over 1.3 million more likes.
I suspect that may hold for a while.
Waitress: How's the [WANDAVISION]?
James Franco as Harry Osborn: SO GOOD. :D
"You took EVERYTHING from me"
"I don't even know who you are."
"You will."
So yeah, Wandavision's really good. You're shocked, I'm sure. ^_^
Welcome back, MCU. It's been a while. I see age hasn't slowed you down one bit. The opening moments of this are like a warm, nostalgic security blanket, here to "blip" all other concerns away.
It's EXACTLY what you think it is. It's House of M mixed with Tom King's Vision. It's a phony black-and-white sitcom, only more phony than usual and whose phoniness isn't just PART of the gag, it IS the gag. It's brilliant. :wub:
Admittedly, I am, as I like to say, a morbid fellow, and this thing basically being Legion mixed with Doom Patrol, and thus being a almost unbearably cheesy sitcom with something sinister creeping in from the margins like an MCU version of Adult Swim's "Too Many Cooks" is pretty darn appealing. On the one hand, if you're invested in the MCU narrative....you already know DARN WELL you're going to watch every episode of this. But it's relentless amount of ham and "dad jokes" and slow burn to an already obvious reveal may not be everyone's cup of tea.
I'm supposed to be watching this with someone else, but like someone with a delicious cake in front of them, I could not resist a nibble and checked out the first episode. Haven't decided if I'm going to watch my way through episode 2 yet, (yes, there are two episodes this week) but even so, yeah. It's really good, watch it, suckers. It's MARVEL BAY-BEE!
Is it as good as Netflix Daredevil? Probably not (unless there's something REALLY juicy in episode 2), but it's close enough.
Also, there is no post-credit scene at the end of the first episode. Streaming service shows have a tradition of including one at the end of the season finale, so feel free to hit that "next episode" button once you see text-on-black. :)
Isnt like every episode a different sitcom? Like one is Honeymooners,one is Family Ties and so on?
Based on the advertisements I've seen, yes. Some of the segments are in color, and include a segment that is (of course) set in the 80's.
Finished episode 2. This show has one massive problem.....there isn't more of it out yet. :(
Spoiler
OMG It's the beekeepers of A.I.M.! Beekeepers have never looked more sinister! Where's Ant-Man and Stinger when you need them?
Wanda [with a baby bump] Vision, is this really happening?
Vision: Yes, it's really happening.
Welcome to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Billy and Tommy, future Young Avengers. Hope you survive the experience. ^_^
Jimmy Woo: Wanda.....what's happened to you?
Doctor Doom be straight creepin', that's what's happening Jimbo. You should get your boy Ant-Man on the case. He can bring his daughter to work. Just as long as neither of them die. :P
I just posted about this show in the discord!
I'm usually the outlier in things like this, so I'm glad other people are enjoying it!
But yeah... This first episode is Bewitched via Pleasantville via this show. I loved Bewitched growing up, so it's a treat to see. Of course, that was just this episode, so now it's time to move on.
I can see why people wouldn't be into this, but it's experimenting, it's meta, it's right up my alley personally. It's not the best thing yet, but it's interesting enough to keep me watching.
(But I might wait until it's all out so I can give it a binge, ha ha.)
Oh yeah, and to mention something from the discord:
Spoiler
I totally saw the Agnes character and thought it was meant to be Agatha Harkness. Specifically from the Scarlet Witch run where she acts as a mentor witch. (from when Wanda was more magic and not a mutant, I think?)
That was the vibe she gave anyhow. We'll see!
As I've said a lot, I'd rather just watch a straight superhero story with those characters, but I'm cautiously interested. Lady Grey likes the Scarlet Witch, and the weird format might actually work for her. We'll see.
I get it, but this story (whether here in live action, or in the comics) doesn't particularly lend itself to a straight-forward superhero action story. You could argue it'd be fine for the first or second act of a superhero story before the big action-leaden finale, but this is only the premiere and if you've seen any of the many advertisements, you know that there will indeed be quite a bit of content taking place outside the world of "Wandavision" (I'm expecting whole episodes to be either entirely or mostly set there).
Ha ha ha, I know we have wildly different tastes, Bent.
I'm sooo bored by straight superhero stuff at this point.
I found out that I had watched episode 2 first so had to watch episode 1, oops. Now I realize that... this is pretty much a straightforward story, but told in a unique way.
It may be that this ends as straightfoward action super stuff, as you imply SS. It does seem to be where it is headed. Personally I hope they manage to keep the kookiness up to the finale, but that's high hopes.
If they could somehow do a Don't Hug Me I'm Scared final reveal when the world falls apart, that would be amazing.
I'm not holding my breath though, and I'll just enjoy what I can get before it's business as usual. Ha ha ha.
I just hope that, in the end, it does't feel like a long commercial for the Dr. Strange movie. I've found a lot of Marvel movies tend to have that feel by the end. Does anybody else pick up that?
Quote from: UnkoMan on January 16, 2021, 06:38:41 PM
I found out that I had watched episode 2 first so had to watch episode 1, oops. Now I realize that... this is pretty much a straightforward story, but told in a unique way.
Not sure how you managed that, but the funny thing is, it basically works anyway with this show.
QuoteI just hope that, in the end, it does't feel like a long commercial for the Dr. Strange movie. I've found a lot of Marvel movies tend to have that feel by the end. Does anybody else pick up that?
To a degree. As I mentioned much, earlier in this thread, I was into a fan theory about this show being a lead in to Dr. Strange: Into the Multiverse of Madness, but with the delays, now I'm not so sure.
Speaking of which, here's a story for you all. Marvel Studios Kevin Feige has confirmed that Deadpool 3 will not only still be rated R, but will also be part of the MCU. The possibilities are endless.
There's also a rumor that
Spoiler
Anya Taylor-Joy's Illyana/Magick from New Mutants will appear in the film (in classic X-Men lore, she is, of course, the sister of Colossus, something the New Mutants film very much avoided bringing up), which....would be pretty darn cool.
So, we've watched both of the first episodes of Wandavision. I'm liking it, Mrs. Gunn finds it confusing, and the minion enjoys it for what it is. I've heard of some fan theories as to what's going on so far, and they seem very ... unimaginative. Here's my current thoughts:
Spoiler
It seems to me that Wanda is being detained somewhere, and something has caused her to create a new reality to retreat into. I didn't recognize the hexagonal symbol on the desk at the end of episode 1, but the shape is obviously recurring. The beekeeper makes me wonder if Wanda saw something when she was abducted that a different part of her subconscious is trying to get her to remember. The classic AIM uniform could look similar, even if they didn't use them in IM3.
You beat me to it.
Wanda Vision Ep 3: Ok, it is dragging a bit. But next week's episode should be more interesting.
One thing about the show that bothers me. Vision appears as a human when around other people.....but everyone still calls him Vision, and noone finds that odd, even though Vision had to stress that his wife's "European" as an explanation for some of her suspicious behavior. They apparently didn't want to call him Victor Shade...which is odd since they reference that name in a piece of promotional art.
Speaking of stuff they've hinted at or referenced....
Spoiler
The animated intro to episode 2 featured visual references to Grim Reaper and Bova from Wundagore, art of Wonder Man can be seen in the background of a behind-the-scenes featurette about the show, and a piece of promotional art (that can be seen on the Wandavision sub-menu on D+) shows Wanda with what appears to be her own vesion of Vision's "costume". This is one of the things that makes me think that Vision's Synthezoid family from Tom King's Vision will be appearing in the show (presumably with Wanda herself standing in for Vision's wife Virginia). My running theory is the show will introduce Viv as a kind of combination of herself and Jonas from Young Avengers, as I'm expecting the upcoming MCU version of Young Avengers to be a combination of YA and Champions, since Kamala Kahn/Ms. Marvel is already on the way, as is Kate Bishop Hawkeye, Cassie Lang as Stature/Stinger, Billie and Tommy are now here, groundwork appears to have been laid for Hulkling, Elijah Bradley (grandfather of the YA version of Patriot) is supposedly appearing in Falcon and Winter Soldier, and Kevin Feige has talked about doing Nova in the future many times. We also have a notable voice actress announced as doing voice work for the show, without saying who she's playing, and I'm assuming she'll be voicing a CGI or partially CGI Viv.
The fake commercials reference Stark (the twins originally blamed Stark for their parent's deaths because a Stark missile fell through the roof of their house, killed them and almost killed her and Pietro), Baron Strucker (who detained and experimented on them to develop their powers, as seen in the post credit scene in Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron) and Hydra (who Strucker worked for, of course).
So yeah, anyway, let's talk about Quicksilver :thumbup:
Near the end of this episode Wanda talks about Pietro for a few minutes.
"I had a twin. His name is Pietro [Wanda's accent returns for a bit]"
"Geraldine": "He was killed by Ultron."
Hey look, it's Quicksilver. And he's holding a Chekov's Gun. Several in fact. :D (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/9/9a/Quicksilver_Marvel_Comics_Speed.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181213030426)
Quicksilver WILL return....in WANDAVISION. IT. WILL HAPPEN.
Also the foreign language credits at the end of the episode blow the reveal that Geraldine is Monica Rambeau (the now-adult version of the daughter of Carol Danvers's Air Force partner in Captain Marvel) before it's actually said in the show proper, and apparently she's a spy for SWORD (which I'm assuming is where Fury was hanging out at the end of Far from Home? They're also doing a Secret Invasion D+ show with Fury in the future) sent to spy on Wanda's little pocket dimension. The plot thickens.
I swear...
Spoiler
If this series gives us Quicksilver with a proper friggin costume, I'll be so happy.
*does the Scooby-Doo/Muttley laugh*
Spoiler
It's been rumored for like a year or so that BOTH versions of Quicksilver are in this. It's possible that Evan Peters (Fox Movie Quicksilver) is playing a different character Lynda-Carter style/Arrowverse style. I'm also of the opinion that he'd be a very appropriate choice to play Tommy aka Speed (since movie Quicksilver in Days of Future Past pretty much WAS Speed) but there's merchandize pointing to mah boi QS being in here. Now, we know by now that Marvel got wise and put out some fake spoiler material Micheal Bay style in recent years, but recently the Spanish dub VO for Fox QS let slip he's in the show.
I have two theories on how either version of my boy Quicksilver is going to show up in here. One would be the big spectacle "oh snap" moment, and the other will be he walks into the door like a Kramer from Seinfeld or a beloved guest star in a sitcom like it's no big deal and the live studio audience will cheer (would not be surprised if that happens).
I guess it depends on what you consider a "proper" costume. I wanted to see a more comic accurate costume for Scarlet Witch and I've made my piece with her outfits over the years she's been around.
Spoiler
See, I just want SOMETHING. I'm sorry, but what we got for the character in AoU... it's designer sportswear, at best. I want him in something that would fit in with the rest of the MCU Avengers (and they can do it, if Falcon's costume is any indication). If they take creative liberties with it like they did with Wanda I don't mind, especially because... well, Quicksilver has never had the best outfits. I do like his Perez-era Dark Blue/White look, but many of his looks are either very flash-derivative or just awful (that stupid fast forward purple nightmare he wore more recently).
So, so true.
Spoiler
I have a soft spot for the Perez one myself, as well. And I hated that one with the fast-forward symbol as well. Pietro (in particular the comic version of the character) is one of my all-time favorite superhero characters of all time for reason I don't entirely understand or can't explain especially well (his history and baggage play into it a lot, like Roy Harper) and yet, due to his middling prominence in the Marvel lore, he's had a pretty crappy set of costumes, to the point that his original X-Factor one, one of the better ones IMO actually, was (because Peter David) presented as a joke. Usually they do default back to "blue with lightning bolt" or "green with lightning bolt" but for a few years he went from "mustard yellow" to "snowboarder gear" to "shirt with a gosh-darn fast-forward symbol on it".
Paul Bettany (Vision) just dropped some major hints about what's coming in WandaVision.
Spoiler tag for those who don't know to know too much about how the sausage is made.
Spoiler
Paul Bettany in an interview that there's an actor popping up by the end of this who hasn't leaked, and who he hasn't worked with before.
I think Dr. Strange might just be in here. I admittedly haven't double checked Bettany's entire body of work, but IIRC Vish never had a single scene with Strange in any of the movies they appeared in, somebody (I think it was Scarlet Johansson or Gwyneth Paltrow) mentioned in an interview that they had to CGI some actors into scenes with other actors in Infinity War/Endgame because they couldn't get everybody on set at the same time, and Bettany and Pom Klementief (Mantis) mentioned at an interview at a convention a few years ago that, like most movies, they filmed scenes out of order (the final act of IW was the first thing they filmed) so Bettany might not have ever even been on set at the same time as Cumberbatch.
In terms of stuff that's already been put out there in marketing, I've watched trailers and reviews for WV on YT so I get lots of videos about it on my feed, including interviews with Elizabeth Olsen (Wanda) and others, and one that popped up in my feed was an interview with several actors, including Kat Dennings (Darcy from the first two Thor movies, who is appearing in the show in later episodes) and it really hit me that she and Jimmy Woo are going to be in this. It had me wondering if they're going to be played for comedy like they were in their respective films or played straight. I'd guess straight. Woo is there as a government agent (I opened when Ant-Man and the Wasp came out that Woo was a replacement for Coulson) and Darcy is there as a scientist (since Natalie Portman and Stellen Skarsgard likely wouldn't be in this). So yeah.
To return to an earlier comment:
Quote from: UnkoMan on January 16, 2021, 12:08:18 AM
Oh yeah, and to mention something from the discord:
Spoiler
I totally saw the Agnes character and thought it was meant to be Agatha Harkness. Specifically from the Scarlet Witch run where she acts as a mentor witch. (from when Wanda was more magic and not a mutant, I think?)
That was the vibe she gave anyhow. We'll see!
Spoiler
Yes, that was a rumor/speculation even when the trailers came out and I just assumed that would be the case. Would make perfect sense, especially since she was also in Fantastic Four and Marvel Studios has the film right rights again. In fact I just learned today that Marvel Legends is currently pouring an enormous amount of really impressive X-Men and Fantastic Four figures that probably sent my poor wallet into a panic attack. :P
So, before I gush about Ep 4, I should mention Paul Bettany recently spilled a secret. Kevin Feige cut an Endgame post-credit scene where Wanda steals Vision's dead body from a body bag. They apparently cut it because it was a bit of a downer. Fair enough, but it would have been a pretty sweet post-credit scene.
So yeah, Wandavision's getting gud. And important. And a bit more more like a "standard superhero story". Those who have put off the show might be happy if they watch the first four now. It might go back to being the usual thing next week, but at the moment....well, this is probably my favorite episode so far and that's saying something cuz I've loved this show so far.
Alright, I'm done. UNDEROOS!
Spoiler
Episode title: "We Interrupt this broadcast." Oh-ho-ho, we're in the Endgame now.
*Episode turns on, we see Monica getting un-Blipped.*
OH SNAP! It's happening, oh god it's happening. Everyone remain calm!
So yeah, I'm watching the new Captain Marvel movie guys.
"Your mother died 3 years ago."
Me: Well, that's gotta suck.
I think it's always going to be interesting to see the blipping and un-blipping from a different perspective. It's the "Order 66" of the MCU.
*Monica walks into S.W.O.R.D. we see her codename is "Photon." Yeah, there you go.
*Jimmy Woo shows up* WOO BABY! THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR, THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!!!
Also Jimmy Woo has now mastered the card trick from Ant-Man and the Wasp.
God, I love the MCU. So good.
Jimmy Woo: Most kids had a poster of Micheal Jordan on their wall, I had Eliott Ness.
Me: MAH MAN. *fistbumps Jimmy Woo through the screen*
* Kat Dennings shows up* Hey, look, it's one now-considerably less broke girl. :) Yep, Darcy's still comic relief.
"DOCTOR Lewis" Yeah, I figured you got your doctorate by now Darcy. It has been....quite a few years. I wonder if she got blipped or not?
Kat Dennings' acting is a bit stiff in this. I'm not sure if that's out of the ordinary or not. I don't exactly watch stuff with her in it on repeat (I've only seen Thor 1 and 2 twice each, and those are the only things I've seen her in. I've seen maybe about 2 minutes or so total of 2 Broke Girls, and I would swear her acting was better in ALL of those. Mandala Effect maybe?)
I'm surprised Darcy hasen't made it into the mainline comics. Selvig was added in Nick Spencer's Cap run.
....apparently the role of main character has now changed from Wanda and Vision to Photon, and now to DARCY in the span of 11 minutes. KAY. I assume at this point KORG will be the main character by the end of the episode or something.
Also I was thinking this earlier in the episode. The town is in New Jersey. As I understand it, Kamala Khan is based in Jersey. As long as they're making this a sequel to Infinity War, Endgame, Captain Marvel, "Ant-Man and the Wasp" AND the first two Thor's, they might as well have Ms. Marvel make an early bird cameo in this before her own show even comes out.
Jimmy Woo: "Director Hayward, between you, me and the bedposts..."
This is a good time to mention, Jimmy Woo is gay, and apparently (I had to google this) according to a now-deleted tweet by Randal Park, they were originally going to make this more clear than it already was in Ant-Man and the Wasp, in a similar manner to Valkyrie from Thor Ragnarok. Someone replied to the tweet and said Joe Russo's cameo in Endgame was the first LGBTQ character in the MCU, but that's clearly not the case, and if you count the tv shows (which Wandavision is) and the Fox movies, they got some in years ago. And we just got Wiccan in the MCU last week. Plus Kate Bishop is coming very soon, and in her solo series she described herself as "being in the closet" (in her case meaning bi)
*The world of Wandavision is discovered by Darcy to be created by the same energy as the Big Bang"
"So you're telling me the universe created a sitcom?"
Maybe the Beyonder really IS in this? Or maybe this is just them explaining the science of how powerful Wanda is?
Darcy: Can I get that coffee now?
SOMEONE GET THAT WOMAN A COFFEE GOSH DARNIT! SHE'S CLEARLY THE MOST USEFUL PERSON HERE!!!
*Darcy watching footage of Wanda and Vision kissing* "Aww." She ships it. And so do I.
OH SNAP! EVERY SINGLE SUPPORTING CHARACTER IN WANDAVISION HAS A DIFFERENT NAME IN THE "REAL WORLD." THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING! Quicksilver cameo as a different character [not yet] confirmed for the win!
AND we have our first character death in Wandavision. Darcy dropped her cup noodle. I salute you, cup noodle. I want some now, mmmm.
I mean, if you want to get technical, Maria Rambeau was revealed to have died, but that happened at least 3 years ago in the timeline.
Oh, one of the S.W.O.R.D. guys who infiltrated the Wandavision zone got "cast" as the beekeeper. Well, that's disappointing. They put that in to screw with us, didn't they?
*Vision briefly turns into a pale, corpse-like version of himself with a big hole in his forehead reflecting his fate in Infinity War* AAAND there's your Nightmare Fuel kids.
So the show has already dropped out of the interesting pastiche into standard superhero fare.
I guess I am the only one that's disappointed for some reason. Ha ha ha. I had hoped to see one episode in every style.
Spoiler
It's only okay now. I mean, it's a very obvious story, I'm surprised people are confused.
By my theory: She takes Vision's body to some small middle of nowhere town, and then she uses her magics to bring back a facsimile of him and have all the townspeople be characters in her fake sitcom perfect life.
The townspeople might have been blips or not.
At least that would be the obvious place to take it. Johnny Woo seems hung up on the idea that somebody is doing it TO her, so it makes sense for that to be a blazing red herring.
Just a small point, unless I'm misunderstanding the angle you're coming from:
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 29, 2021, 02:45:02 PM
Spoiler
*Monica walks into S.W.O.R.D. we see her codename is "Photon." Yeah, there you go.
Spoiler
*Maria* Rambeau was established with the codename Photon in the Capt. Marvel movie, and without re-watching this episode to pause it at that point, I'm pretty sure the plaque she was looking at on the wall was her mother's, not her own.
QuoteI guess I am the only one that's disappointed for some reason. Ha ha ha. I had hoped to see one episode in every style.
Giving the advertising, (we STILL haven't seen the 80's style one and the halloween costumes!) I'm assuming they're going to go back and forth every episode or so. After all, Kat Dennings and Randal Park are added to the main credits.
Quote from: Panther_Gunn on February 01, 2021, 01:30:45 AM
Just a small point, unless I'm misunderstanding the angle you're coming from:
Quote from: Silver Shocker on January 29, 2021, 02:45:02 PM
Spoiler
*Monica walks into S.W.O.R.D. we see her codename is "Photon." Yeah, there you go.
Spoiler
*Maria* Rambeau was established with the codename Photon in the Capt. Marvel movie, and without re-watching this episode to pause it at that point, I'm pretty sure the plaque she was looking at on the wall was her mother's, not her own.
You are completely right. However:
Spoiler
I slipped on that when I first put it on, and caught it later (I also missed Jimmy Woo finally nailing the card trick from Ant-Man and the Wasp, which is such a neat touch! :lol:)
[Edit: I originally mispelled Jimmy Woo as Jimmy Foo. That's unfortunate.]
I'm operating on the assumption that she will take on her mother's callsign as her superhero name. I vaguely recall seeing an interview that was talking about having her become a superhero as the story and the MCU goes on and I admittedly jumped the gun a bit on that, but I also jump the gun on a LOT of the MCU stuff because, well, it's exciting!
Speaking of which, more "how the sausage is made" for those who want to opt in:
Florence Pugh's Yelena Belova (the other OTHER Black Widow from the comics) is appearing the Hawkeye series, which means she MIGHT appear in that before the Black Widow flick is actually released, resulting in the movie potentially being spoiled.
But like a lot of people I'm just assuming she'll be the new Black Widow so I'm fine with that. Maya Lopez aka Echo aka the other Ronin is also in the show, so yeah, show looks like it'll be sweet.
In other news:
Cap and the Winter Soldier will have Carl Lumbly (the voice of J'onn J'onzz/Martian Manhunter from Justice League/Justice League Unlimited and J'onn's father in the Supergirl tv show) playing Josiah Bradley, the grandfather of Young Avenger Eli aka Patriot. I approve! :thumbup:
I've also read in an interview the show will tackle "uncomfortable political issues" which probably means it will be a partial adaptation of "The Truth: Red, White and Black" which means it's even more likely we're getting Patriot aka one more step on the path to Young Avengers.
So I saw a thing. A this-week's-episode-of-Wandavision leak thing.
Fair warning to those watching who don't want stuff spoiled.
1. Remove literally of all the Wandavision-related things from your Youtube history if you're watching stuff on YT between now and the time you watch this week's episode, and consider using a spoiler-blocker browser add-on if you're not already.
2. Know that I almost teared up when I saw this.
Spoiler
This week's episode is the Halloween episode and it had a major cameo in it.
Billy: (dressed as what appears to Wiccan's costume): Our Dad!
Wanda (in comics-accurate Scarlet Witch costume from the trailers: What is it Billy?
Billy: He's in trouble.
Evan Peter in a comics-accurate blue Quicksilver costume: It's not like your dead boyfriend can die twice.
*Wanda fires beam at EP Quicksilver and knocks him several feet away*
Of course. I should have seen it coming. Well played Marvel, well played.
Tommy is also apparently wearing a Speed costume.
Oh Young Avengers, how I love you so. This variant cover just shows how fun and likable and relatable they are, and I ran into it by accident just yesterday and I can't remember if I'd ever seen it. I can't wait to see what a Stature/Stinger costume and Kang and Iron Lad's armors will look with in the MCU. (https://assets.mycast.io/posters/the-young-avenger-fan-casting-poster-23014-medium.jpg?1576765780) I really gotta hurry up and read Empyre.
Also, in less spoilery news, the word online is Disney will release 2-4 new trailers for Super Bowl Sunday. Oh, the possibilities!
So,
actually this week on Wandavision.....
Not
too much happened.....kinda dragged a bit....
I'll say this. Those who were fence sitters on this show because it's a phony sitcom.....it's now consistently like 50% not that now, so this would be the part where most people will all go "Yeah, it's pretty good".
Spoiler
"Wanda doesn't have an alias".
So the name "Scarlet Witch" really doesn't exist in the MCU yet. Ok then.
"We need a 'narrow space engineer.'"
Wait....is Ant-Man actually in this? I was joking earlier......He can't be the super special cameo because Bettany was in Civil War with him, sooo....
Also, Wanda is a baaaaaad guuuuuy. *And as some online noted, quite Magneto-esque in this scene*
Also she flies now? She flies now. I can't remember if she flew before.
*Evan Peters as Pietro, not Peter, Pietro, walks in the door. Live studio audience claps and cheers*
So yeah, that happened. And yeah, I loved it.
Also he talks like the Fonz. And that's pretty fun.
Darcy: She recast Pietro?!!
Yup. Bananas. Kick-Arse is out. The guy from American Horror Story is in.
I think the new Quicksilver song is "The Boys Are Back in Town" ^_^
Also multiple references to the opening act of Civil War. More foreshadowing?
The Halloween episode wasn't even this week.
Super bowl Sunday has come and gone (I don't watch football; I was watching S2 of Pennyworth. It's really good, if anyone cares. The guy who plays young Alfred is brilliant) And we got 1 Disney trailer, but it was a pretty cool one.
Winter Soldier and Falcon. Not too interesting, but still pretty cool. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWBsDaFWyTE)
There's not a lot to talk about, but there is enough.
I like that Sam and Buck don't seem to get along. I always remember that part in Civil War where Spider-Man pretty much hands them their butts and webs them up and Falcon's stuck there and he says to Bucky "I hate you." Funny moment, but it does illustrate that these two guys aren't necessarily going to get along because it would be convenient for the plot.
Then there's Zemo of course. I love that he's got the purple mask, but I do have a few questions, as do others. 1. How much trouble is this guy going to be able to cause this time around? 2) With Cap and Tony off the board, what is he trying to achieve? What is this "work" he says he has to do? 3) Is there a story reason in this universe why he wears the mask? As Bane once said "Noone cared about me until I put on the mask". But in the comics lore there's a reason he put it on, so I'm curious if there's a reason here.
The other issue I have with Zemo here is that he really needs some kind of headpiece over the top of the mask to complete the look IMO. Maybe it's just that they wanted it to look more realistic to me but without that section it looks wrong to me.
In other news, there's talk online about Jimmy Woo getting his own show alongside Kat Denning's Darcy as a kind of MCU X-Files. I personally think it's a nifty idea, maybe as a miniseries (I have no idea how long these shows are supposed to last - they're not actually planning to have Wandavision be more than one season are they? Because that would be bizarre) but I don't know how many people would have actually watch that. The internet does have vocal section section of the fandom who apparently loves Randal Park/Jimmy Woo as much as I do, but I can't imagine wider audiences caring one bit. Plus Agents of Atlas could be a far more promising show.
In other other news, there's talk of a Wakanda-style Black Panther spin-off show. See, that's not a bad idea. And also got me thinking. A member of the Dora Milaje as the new Panther instead of Shuri. See that's not a bad idea. Movie Shuri is a tech expert who doesn't appear to be a fighter, which is exactly what the Milaje are, and the herbs were destroyed in the movie. So that does kinda line up. Plus I've been curious ever since Endgame what exactly happened to Wakanda and its plans to interact with the outside world during the timeskip.
It'd also give an opportunity for Martin Freeman to show up again (I forgot about him!) and that's always delightful.
I just watched that new trailer. It looks a bit better. I'm still looking forward to this one, and I'm definitely excited to see Zemo becoming more like what he should be.
Quote from: Silver Shocker on February 08, 2021, 09:48:16 AM
I like that Sam and Buck don't seem to get along. I always remember that part in Civil War where Spider-Man pretty much hands them their butts and webs them up and Falcon's stuck there and he says to Bucky "I hate you." Funny moment, but it does illustrate that these two guys aren't necessarily going to get along because it would be convenient for the plot.
I think of it like this, they are these two guys who would never hang out with each other, except for this one friend they had in common. Now that friend has been taken out of the equation. And unlucky for them, but lucky for us watching, they have to work together. I do hope that they do keep the kernel of respect they actually do have for each other, even begrudgingly, like you saw at the end of 'Endgame'.
Quote
2) With Cap and Tony off the board, what is he trying to achieve? What is this "work" he says he has to do?
He wasn't so much after Tony and Steve, as much as destroy the Avengers team, by tearing it apart from the inside. He wants to destroy the 'idea' of heroes, because they failed him, or his family to be precise. I would say that is his mission. That, or he is out to destroy the legacy of Captain America by taking out his two closest allies.
Quote
In other news, there's talk online about Jimmy Woo getting his own show alongside Kat Denning's Darcy as a kind of MCU X-Files. I personally think it's a nifty idea, maybe as a miniseries
More Darcy/Jimmy. Yes, Please!
Quote
It'd also give an opportunity for Martin Freeman to show up again (I forgot about him!) and that's always delightful.
Oh please, please, please let him run into Doctor Strange! The meta of it alone makes me Squee!
Quote from: Night Dragon on February 08, 2021, 06:06:35 PM
Quote
2) With Cap and Tony off the board, what is he trying to achieve? What is this "work" he says he has to do?
He wasn't so much after Tony and Steve, as much as destroy the Avengers team, by tearing it apart from the inside. He wants to destroy the 'idea' of heroes, because they failed him, or his family to be precise. I would say that is his mission. That, or he is out to destroy the legacy of Captain America by taking out his two closest allies.
I'm planning to, at the very least, rewatch the Zemo scenes of Civil War before it comes out as a refresher, but that sounds right. In the comics, when undoing the whole Thunderbolts status quo, Brubaker's original angle was Zemo wanted to test Bucky to see if he was worthy to wield the shield, which is as good an angle for comic Zemo as any, but MCU Zemo doesn't have remotely the same background as comic Zemo.
Quote
Oh please, please, please let him run into Doctor Strange! The meta of it alone makes me Squee!
That is a good point. ^_^ Cumberbatch was also the voice for Dormammu, so there could be a Bilbo/Smaug reference there too, though I don't know how likely it'd be for Everett Ross to meet Dormammu unless He becomes a "companion" to Doctor Strange's Doctor Who (and he's already teaming up with Wong)
QuoteMore Darcy/Jimmy. Yes, Please!
Marvel and Disney know what their audience like, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc-KMsZCNsE) and that Disney money sure goes a long way when it comes to marketing. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns7_LLDgJNs)
More news about Cap and the Winter Soldier:
According to a foreign ratings board, the series is rated for violence and course language comparable to Daredevil and/or Game of Thrones.
If I were a betting man, I'd say it will be less violent than Daredevil. I can't possibly imagine it being that violent, let alone as violent as GOT.
It's set to release March 29th, while Black Widow is set to release May 7, both this year. Looking forward to seeing if these make it to the finish line without being delayed. Which is a good thing, as Florence Pugh (Yelena Belova) is guest starring in Hawkeye.
Also Kat Dennings has said she hasn't been talked to about appearing in Thor 4, but would say yes if ask, and her and Randal Park (Jimmy Woo) both say they didn't get Blipped, with Dennings saying she was outright told by the creators that Darcy didn't get blipped while Park said Jimmy needed the time to practice his card tricks.
This week on Wandavision:
We're apparently into 2000's sitcoms, with a hand-held cam style that I'm told is based on the show Modern Family. I've never seen that show, so I'll take people's word on that. And I'm not big on the 2000's metal music used for the intro this week. It's also the Halloween episode, yay.
Spoiler
One thing that's became clear in this episode is that Evan Peter's Quicksilver, as entertaining as he's always been, is kind of pathetic. I mean, that is consistent, even in Apocalypse, he brings up that he still lived with his mom and outright says he was kind of a loser, and it bothered me that he went right up to Magneto and couldn't directly tell him he was his son.
He's also a terrible influence on poor Tommy, but I kinda like that because Days of Future Past Quicksilver was reminiscent of Speed in a way that probably was just a coincidence. He was a kinda self-serving criminal thrill seeker who only helped them because he got the chance to pull the mother of all heists, while Speed was introduced as being broken out of jail and was turning Skrulls into pulp without a care in the world. And as Young Avengers went on hiatus and other writers took over this element of the character sorta got lost in the shuffle.
Also Zombie Quicksilver. Fun stuff.
I'm actually kinda of glad I had a single scene from this episode spoiled in the form of a leak completely out of context, as it allowed the rest of the last two episodes to maintain a level of exciting surprise and suspense.
Even Peters Quicksilver is also aware of him being a construct, which is....interesting.....
The comic-accurate hair, however, looks terrible, in a way that had to have been intentional, considering all of the comic-accurate episodes in this episode are literally cheap Halloween costume.
Also, I'm rather disappointed at the lack of costumes from anyone else that were Marvel references. No Hulk, Captain America, ect? No Iron Man and Black Widow after Tony Stark died to save to everybody? I also thought it would be nifty if a young girl wore a Vision costume as a reference to Viv Vision. But I guess in Wanda's world, the superhero world doesn't exist outside of her little close-nit family, but then again that is the entire point of WandaVision, that what Wanda is doing is incredibly unhealthy.
The show is starting to drag in spots, I'll admit, or perhaps the initial appeal of it has worn out a bit, but with 3 episodes left, I'm hoping things pick up and wrap up in a satisfying way.
The Halloween episode was totally a Malcolm in the Middle.
I've never seen Modern Family so I can't say anything about that, but it's from later than Malcolm.
Eh. What little I've seen of Modern Family seems to more closely match some shots from the trailers (I'm assuming those are from this week?) where this was, from what I can tell, mostly borrowing from Malcolm and earlier sitcoms (Holiday episodes, cool uncle, etc.) Since Modern Family was from 2009, I think it's more likely to be referenced with the upcoming episode, rather than this one.
As I said, I recall them outright saying it was Modern Family, but again, as I said, the hand-held cam style is supposed to be based on MF. Malcolm in the Middle (which I did indeed watch, and I was not a huge fan of it outside of Francis, it sure made me appreciate Bryan Cranston's later work) mainly consisted of Malcolm talking to the camera in a way that implied he was talking to someone who was there in the room with him (it was a fourth-wall-breaking kind of thing ala Deadpool) There was no contextualization in-universe for this IIRC.
As I understand it (and this comes from Tvtropes) MF does a kind of ICarly thing where one or more of the characters makes videos on Youtube or something similar, so it's not so much "breaking the fourth wall by talking to the audience" as "recording for an audience on the internet" (I recall reading that the show has a "you left the webcam on" joke at one point.
And of all the things about Wandavision we could discuss, we are apparently talking about whether WV was aping Malcolm in the Middle or Modern Family. You all realize we are a massive bunch of nerds, right? ;)
QuoteWhat little I've seen of Modern Family seems to more closely match some shots from the trailers (I'm assuming those are from this week?) where this was, from what I can tell, mostly borrowing from Malcolm and earlier sitcoms (Holiday episodes, cool uncle, etc.) Since Modern Family was from 2009, I think it's more likely to be referenced with the upcoming episode, rather than this one.
Actually, taking a closer look at what you said, maybe you're right, maybe I am getting mixed up what exact episode is inspired by what. Timeline wise, that would match up better too.
If nothing else, the electric guitar-music for the intro was certainly similar to the theme song for MitM.
Now as for the question as to "Which is the more dysfunctional family, the one in Wandavision or the one in Malcolm in the Middle (whose last name is never revealed in the show, as I understand it), well, that's the real question.
Found the quote you're referencing because it was nagging at me, from Feige.
Quote"I loved TV, and watched far too much The Dick Van [expletive deleted] Show and I Love Lucy and Bewitched and everything," Feige said. "We go up to the Modern Family and The Office style. The talk-to-the-camera, shaky-camera, documentary style."
That seems to imply the office/modern family stuff is at/near the end of the sitcom episodes, not specifically referencing 6.
Quote"I loved TV, and watched far too much The Dick Van [expletive deleted] Show
I hope that was the autocensor and not you trying to make a joke. 😂
It was either in the quote when I copied it or the boards auto censor, pretty sure the latter.
Har har. That was literally a joke in Family Guy.
[expletive deleted] Van [expletive deleted]
I, too have watched way too much TV (until I moved out of the house) so I am definitely all over the merits of discussing what episodes ape what.
Did you see those Brady Bunch stairs?! I've actually LOVED watching the house set change to match the show period.
But, like... that's the main reason I've liked this show, ha ha ha ha.
Wandavision: EP 7: Ok, THIS is indeed the episode I was talking about.
This episode is another humdinger. The kind of episode that would have had people talking around the water cooler.
Alfred: And what do you call that?
Christian Bale's Batman: Damn good television.
Spoiler
Also I missed this last week:
1. Vision: It is my intention to reach those outside of Westview and make sense of our situation.
So you MIGHT even say.....to reference that one internet meme, he must somehow make sense of our convoluted situation!
2. Monica was changed by the "hex" barrier, and not just in the usual "WandaVision casting" way.
Photon/Spectrum blatantly confirmed.
Billy and Tommy: Our game is freaking out!
*Wii controllers transform into Gamecube controllers, then into Atari controllers, then into Uno cards.*
Brilliant! Ah, I love this show so much!
Also I call shenanigans! While a quick google search reveals there WAS indeed a wireless Atari controller, and they did indeed look like that, those are clearly regular Gamecube controllers with the wires cut off and not Wavebirds. Fail. I mean, it's magic, so it doesn't really matter, but they went for a specific reference and didn't get it right.
*Cereal is called "Sugar Snaps"*
Oh Marvel. You know they're loving this.
Hey....wait a second....those look EXACTLY like lucky charms! I knew Lucky was up to no good. Breakfast is indeed ruined!
The theme music sure sounds like it was inspired by the Office.
*Darcy calls Vision a creeper.*
Vision: You don't recognize me from the other night? We locked eyes, there was an understanding.
Darcy: Um, hard pass *walks away*
Vision: No, wait, wait up!
You better check yourself before you wreck yourself, Vizh. She'll taze you. Ask Thor, he knows.
* Weather forecast shows sunny weather all week. *
I take it Storm's not the only one who can control the weather. Also, NO, that game they were playing on the Wii was not a real game. I'd recognize it if it was. Unless it's a homebrew....it's magic.
Wanda: Vision is made out of vibranium. They literally inherited tough skin.
Wait, is that true? Or is Wanda just doing that thing where you used the word "literally" incorrectly?
Agnes: I promise I won't bite.
Agnes [interview segment] I actually did bite a kid once.
Assuming you're not just joking.....WHY? Why would you do that? Stranger danger!
*Agnes makes increasingly inappropriate comments in front of Wanda and her kids*
Umm....what the hell? That was really weird. And not even in a "Wandavision" way.
*Wanda's powers accidentally change the model of TV* You know, if you could control it, that would be an AWESOME power. Like Override from Spider-Man, only instead of cars, it's whatever you want. Like a Mother Box, but you don't even need a Mother Box.
*Wandavision version of Darcy, to Vision* Fine, I'll go out with you, but I'm ordering the lobster.
See that's cute. I like that. I like that a lot. I wonder if Vision has money to pay for food.
Darcy punching a guy at the circus in the nose for getting grabby, complete with a circus-themed sound effect, then saying sorry is far funnier than it had any right to be. It's hard to tell, but the sound effects might have been coming from one of those strength testing meters elsewhere in the scene, which is probably my favorite part of the bit.
Jimmy Woo: Director Heyward wasn't trying to decommission Vision...he was trying to bring him back online...
Oh really? This is my surprised face. Reveal a new Vision in a SWORD lab. DO IT!
*Commercial plays with voiceover*
"Side effects [Of "Nexus", anti-depressant] include: feeling your feelings, confronting your truth, seizing your destiny, and possibly more depression. You should not take Nexus unless your doctor has cleared you to move on with your life. Nexus: Because the world doesn't revolve around you....or does it?"
Well, that was just about the darkest joke ever. This show's so pitch-black it's almost mean. It practically IS Too Many Cooks at this point. I'm don't sure I even want to think about how it's going to end.
*The bunny's name is Scratchy*
Like Nicolas Scratch, Fantastic Four villain and son of Agatha Harkness! Agnes confirmed for Agatha Harkness!
Monica: I can get through.
Jimmy: Monica, you can't!
*Epic Marvel movie music pipes in as Monica pushes through the barrier*
You know what else I love about this show? I love how this show about Wanda and the Vision REALLY IS a Monica Rambeau origin movie in disguise, and they aren't even particularly subtle about it. It's like The MCU version of Mandalorian, except not "like" because that's EXACTLY what it is.
*Monica has powers now, and can see how Wanda's powers have warped the area* Looks like Monica Rambeau can see her own unique.....
....Spectrum. :cool:
YEAAAAAAH!!!!
*Darcy tells Vision how he died in one of the most humorously awkward conversations ever*
Soooo....did they just tell EVERYBODY what happened in those movies? Does Wanda know you guys just blabbed about that super traumatic, deeply personal experience she had mere minutes before she dissapeared for five years? The one that drove her into one of the most dangerous bouts of severe mental illness in the history of the MCU?
Man, when this thing's over the real question's going to be which version of Wanda got screwed over worse, the comic version or the MCU version.
Well, in the last few minutes of this thing, it went from very dark, to very campy. That's some very intentional mood whiplash there. And Vision and Darcy are driving in a van being stopped by non-stop inconveniences. Normally you have to watch an anime to get something this starkly diverse in tone. Or you know, Guardians of the Galaxy.
Agatha Harkness reveal is a great reveal...and it probably would have been even better if the marketing didn't tip its hand a bit too much.
Agatha Harkness is an evil witch who gets a villain song. How appropriately....Disney. And how appropriate this hit like a DAY after the trailer for a Cruella Di Ville movie.
And she killed the family dog too. Damn. That's cold.
Man, the MCU got a LOT better at doing villains over the years, didn't they?
Strangely, Debra Jo Rupp is added back into the credits for a split-second of screentime, but Emma Caulfield is not. Curious.
Post Credit Scene: "Pietro" appearing behind Monic and saying "Snoopers gonna snoop". He might as well be quoting the "Snooping as usual I see" meme. We getting Quicksilver vs. Photon next week? Because that sounds sick!
Soooo....regardless of what actually happened/IS going to happen to Wanda's kids....2+ years since Infinity War and Marvel STILL doing "dark" WAY better than DCEU.
Also, a correction. The line was "Aerospace engineer". Not "narrow-space engineer." And the actress who plays Monica said the reveal of who it is is going to be huge.
The people making this show are mad geniuses.
Also, it's not even noon and this episode's traffic has been causing D+ to crash.
This week on "Darker than the DCEU because you actually care"
Oh Wandavision, to quote Gwen Stefani: "Why You Have to Go and Make Me Like You?"
This episode didn't make me cry....but it sure came close several times over.
Spoiler
NO! No making me feel sympathy for the evil Disney Witch! Bad Wandavision! ;)
Well, at least we know the kids are alive. Not as bad as it could be.
Well, what do you know, we literally see flashbacks/memory of Wanda watching D*ck Van Dy*ke and having DVDs of Malcolm in the Middle in the show itself. To quote Giles from Buffy, the subtext is rapidly becoming text.
*Bomb goes off while they're watching tv*
Rhodey, you wanna field this one?
Rhodey: Yeah, this sucks, this is a bad beat.
*Wanda sees what I what to assume is herself in a vaguely comics-accurate costume, complete with headpiece*
Man this show is made to make those reaction guys on Youtube freak out, isn't it? :)
*Malcolm in the middle is literally on the tv and directly talked about*
Fine, I'll admit it; I had an Alien movie on on Disney Plus the other night. The Fox-Disney buyout was worth it.
I mean, Ryan Reynolds confirmed Deadpool 3 was going to be a road trip with Jackman's Logan, but this is nice.
Vision (during Civil War flashback) It can't all be sorrow, can it?
Man, I hope the MCU writers are paid well, because these people are real good. And they've been real good for the better part of like a decade and change.
"That makes you....The Scarlet Witch."
Yay, she said the thing and it actually means something in context. :)
Yay, mid credit scene with ghostly pale Vision. Took a few years, but here he is. :)
No Fake Pietro this week. That's too bad, but I can live with it.
There's only 1 episode left, and when it's done, I don't know if I'm going to cry because it's going to be really dark, sad and/or bittersweet or because they isn't more of it. And I don't know which is worse.
Spoiler
You mean Fietro?
I think the implication is that what she saw was an actual Sokovian witch or whatever it was called... Similar to how Agatha clearly inherited her powers, Wanda probably has the bloodline of other magic users.
This does open the door to something though... The stone clearly supercharged her, but the implication that she's had powers this whole time leads back around to her being... Well, a mutant. Or this universe's equivalent.
I kinda hope the surprise guest at the end of this is MCU Pietro. It wouldn't have the weight of the mando cameo per se... But God I'd love to see a quicksilver fight, that'd be so cool.
Spoiler
Quote from: Tomato on February 26, 2021, 05:04:20 PM
You mean Fietro?
*Sigh* Yes. I'm never calling him that. It doesn't roll off the tongue right for me.
QuoteI think the implication is that what she saw was an actual Sokovian witch or whatever it was called... Similar to how Agatha clearly inherited her powers, Wanda probably has the bloodline of other magic users.
I imagine you're right, but I like to think they purposely made the figure at the very least
resemble Wanda's comic design.
The fact that they namedropped "Chaos Magic."....they know what they're doing. Per usual.
QuoteThis does open the door to something though... The stone clearly supercharged her, but the implication that she's had powers this whole time leads back around to her being... Well, a mutant. Or this universe's equivalent.
Seems like.
The thing about Wanda (and Vision) is, and this made me look forward to the show, as much as I took to them, they have rather limited screentime prior to this show. Which means there's a lot of room to add to them and give a greater sense as to who these people are and what they've been doing.
Which is why that scene with the house is so sad...the feels...
QuoteI kinda hope the surprise guest at the end of this is MCU Pietro. It wouldn't have the weight of the mando cameo per se... But God I'd love to see a quicksilver fight, that'd be so cool.
Pietro vs Fake Pietro would be interesting. But it could come off as too similar to Flash vs a bad guy speedster, but this is the MCU, I like to think they'll come up with something suitably inspired and impressive.
Wandavision Ep 9:
Well, it was certainly the epic, satisfying finale I was expecting and predicting from the start. If this show was shorter one could indeed fairly easily imagine it as a MCU movie.
Spoiler
Very nice touch giving all the major characters a moment to shine.
Vision defeats Vision using logic, while Wanda basically pulls a Tony Stark to defeat Agatha.
"That's some outfit you got there"
Yeah, it's MCU Wanda's Scarlet Witch outfit. It's certainly different. And also was totally featured in the earliest promo art in plain sight, in a limited capacity.
Haven't entirely decided how I feel about how Fietro Fake Pietro shook out, once again Evan Peters Quicksilver is really pathetic, but we also never got a setpiece moment. I haven't decided if it was funny and a nice bit of fanservice or a missed opportunity, a mean spirited take that mixed with sour grapes or a combination of all of that. Maybe that was the point, that he was a phony and no replacement for the original. As the comic version of Vision once said "Copies are never superior."
Speed taking all of the SWORD guy's guns, and the guy's hat just for added fun, that was a fun moment, and, I like to assume, a solid callback to some of the best Quicksilver moments from the comics (everyone's seen the one from Busik/Alan Davis, but strangely the "Super Speed Gun Juggling" scene from his own solo remains obscure). Kid seems to take after his uncle for sure.
Wanda having to give up her fake family landed more or less how I expected, but with her in far more control of her life than she'd been previously, and good for her, she's earned it by now.
Yet, as much as I enjoyed the ride, it feels strangely anti-climatic. Even with two post-credit scenes promising future projects, each lining up perfectly with what you'd expect, I found myself expecting more. Something that really got me hyped as hell. Maybe that's the downside of knowing so much about how the sausage is made in the internet age, is that you can see a bit too many steps ahead.
About a day or so before this episode went out, Paul Bettany talked again about the super special cameo actor he's never acted alongside....because it was him, playing Vision vs Vision. He said it was meant to be a bit of an inside joke.
Hey, hype machine gonna hype. And lots of people gonna watch week to week regardless, and Vision defeating himself with philosophy about his own existence and state of being is kinda brilliant.
I'll post more in-depth Spoiler-y thoughts once my brain is fully awake and I've done my second full watch-through (I watch it before work so I can survive Twitter during the day, and then after work with roommates) but I wanted to let everyone here know: Post Mid-Credit AND Post Credit scenes with this one. Nothing earth shaking, but thought I'd mention it.
I don't want to sound like a "told you so" for a spoiler alert... but for those who like NBC procedural dramas...
Spoiler
I first saw the the SWORD Director Tyler Hayward(Josh Stamberg) playing a pompous and dirty judge on a Law and Order SVU episode like a week before came on Wandavision so a part me assumed he was going to turn out being at least a jerk by the end so it wasn't such a surprise ;)
Spoiler
Kinda like Clancey Brown playing a corrupt military man in the Punisher plot of Daredevil S2.
Then again, CSI featured JLU Superman voice actor George Newbern and Alan Tudyk circa Wash from Firefly as sex offenders, so sometimes but not always.
Oh geez.
Well, I know I have vastly different tastes from most people here, ha ha.
This review sums up my thoughts pretty well:
https://ew.com/tv/tv-reviews/wandavision-finale-review/
The thoughts are negative, and don't click that link if you don't want spoilers, of course!
Spoiler
It is neat to watch them set up their next Avengers though.
White Vision? Photon (or can she use Captain Marvel, too)? Okay, sure.
That reviewer kinda reads like there were inspired by Roger Ebert.
It's definitely a show where how much you liked it or got out of it depends on what aspects of it appeal or don't appeal to you. As I said from the start, I'm biased as crap, so I was going to like this thing no matter what.
Big CGI finale....some people are rolling their eyes at it, ok, fair enough, I get that. Me personally I loved it.
Watching it for the memes? Yeah, sometimes - not always, but sometimes - the reason the product launches a lot of memes is because a lot of people really really enjoyed it. Not all internet appreciation is of the ironic variety. Just a lot of it.
As for Wanda herself:
Spoiler
I originally phrased it as "Wanda's in a better place." And I changed it to "in control of her life." Because she's definitely more in control of her life, but in terms of the post-credit scene.....eh, to be continued.
Mind you, one review I watched outright called Wanda a villain, which....I mean, that's not entirely wrong. They were making an extended point about perspective, but still.
Me personally? More than anything else, I feel letdown because I saw promo posters with Wanda wearing an armored suit that was only shown through a tv at torso-length and I got excited for a sequence where the entire family was a family of Visions, and it never happened. That's a winning bit right there, in addition to a solid reference to the comics. :(
I'll concede, the ending is a bit unclear and rushed in spots. Darcy has about a second-and-a-half of screentime before being written out off-screen with a one-line explanation, Agatha got trapped in a make-believe world that got undone about 2 scenes later, with no indication what happened to her after that (unless I and other people missed it), and Pale Vision.....that one I'm genuinely intrigued by.
Mind you, I'm firmly of the opinion the scene where Nebula calls the Guardians and the Drax vs Thanos smackdown 100% should have made it into Infinity War, Endgame needed to be at least 5-10 minutes longer, to explain some stuff that warranted explanation, and, while the trench scene was rightly excised, Mantis confusing Past-Gamora for a "zombie" should have made it in because it's hysterical, so I'm naturally going to say this thing that had a good 10-15 minutes of wrapup still could have used a few minutes more.
I didn't mention this in my original post, but there's something incredibly appropriate about the first MCU tv show in this set ending with a post credit scene where Sam Jackson's Nick Fury wants a meet and greet with the new super hero, considering that's how this entire enterprise started.
I enjoyed it. I grew up on a lot of sitcoms myself (mostly different ones than the ones showcased, but let's be honest, there's no way they were touching the Cosby show) and I've had mental health issues as well.
As mentioned, I watched it with my roommates, who are invested in the MCU but not really comic fans, and they loved it. Usually they aggressively wait until a series is out to watch it, but after making them watch through episode 5 (because I knew how the internet would be... and sure enough one's MMO clan started talking about it an hour or so after) they were right there with me week to week. It's not something I would want 20 seasons of or think should be an ongoing standard (I'm fine with Falcon and Winter Soldier being a more traditional superhero romp just as a chaser) but it did what it was trying to do very very well.
WandaVision start off great. It has clever writing,great performances,style...and it ends in a cgi battle,skybeams and setup for the next movie (Captain Marvel 2). For a moment,I was afraid Marvel was actually taking a risk with something here,but thank gods,it was just MCU s02e17.
As Splinter said when he was called a Mr. Miyagi fan, "Just so, Michealangelo." ^_^
I was watching a review just last night that didn't care for how the finale shook out and I'm like "Eh, fair enough, it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. Especially after this many Superhero things doing that kind of stuff". But I did call that on here like week one, that it was functionally a three-act superhero movie spread into 9 episodes, so eh.
I'm fine with it. I think I'd have liked it a bit more if they had been able to include some of the cut sequences (the director went on a podcast and brought up that whole sections of it were filmed, but didn't make the final episode because post production was derailed by Covid) but as is it's fine. I think the emotional bits, such as visions farewell, delivered enough of a punch for me.
I dunno, I think some people were expecting stuff like X-Men to come out of this, and that clearly wasn't the intent. The door got opened I think, but i think some fans were expecting some giant sweeping changes to the mcu... And frankly, that was never gonna happen in a miniseries on a streaming platform that not everyone has access to.
Well, apparently the trailer for The Eternals was recently released. I guess I'm out of the loop, because I had no idea it was that far along, and I have heard absolutely nothing about it. The trailer looks...interesting? I have no real clue what it's about after watching it. I haven't read any of the comics, so I only have a vague notion of what the characters are about anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WVDKZJkGlY
Yeah,the trailer is kinda boring. And doesn't really tell us what the movie is about. The whole thing feels like a big budget mulligan of the Inhumans concept.
Hmm, I think that's well said.
I agree with Benton, it looks... okay. Nothing mind blowing, nothing making me say "I've got to see this, NOW!", like alot of previous movies have. But it does open up alot of questions.
If they 'watched and guided' humanity from early on, that means the y have some sort of interest in us. So where were they during either Infinity War or Endgame? Wouldn't they be affected by the blip/snap like every other creature in existence? They're watching us, so they must know the danger Thanos posed. And if SnP-Master T wasn't a big enough threat for them to expose themselves, what motivates them to do so now?
I was holding on to hope for this movie. Not because I'm a fan of the characters. Marvel managed to take another group of relatively unknown characters (GotG), and made a fun-filled action/comedy series of films. But I'm just not feeling it here. I'll still try to be optimistic and keep a wait and see attitude.
Yeah, I had the same thought about Thanos. If these guys have been on Earth and involved through all that time, it does rather raise questions.
I've always liked the Eternals a lot. And the Inhumans. Despite both of them having a ton of really different takes in the comic books, the original Kirby stuff is great.
I didn't bother to watch the Inhumans show though, ha ha ha.
Like you said, the Eternals DOES feel like a mulligan. Like how Shang Chi feels like a mulligan for Iron Fist (and the Mandarin).
Shang I'm a little excited for, hoping it lives up to the promise that one scene of the old lady in the first season of Daredevil instilled in me. The promise of cool martial arts.
Eternals, I dunno. It feels like it would be best to stay away from information and come in blind, with no expectations in any way.
It definitely looks like they want to go for a big sweeping drama, which is what Eternals should be, but I don't really think they can pull it off, ha ha. AND, in universe... Yeah, them not revealing themselves to fight Thanos is pretty weird. I am 100% sure they are not going with Thanos being a Titanian/Titan Eternal in the movieverse. He's just, what, a random alien from question mark? But still, even without that loose connection, you'd think they'd be interested...
Anyhow, seems really difficult to do a sweeping epic in a single movie, but good luck to them. I just hope it doesn't fall to the standard cliches.
Eternals is an assemble movie. You have to introduce a whole bunch of characters at once and make them distinct and interesting. And you saw the Justice League. And the general audience was pretty familiar with those characters. And the trailer is just Rob Stark on a triangle space ship. Not the best sell.
Very interesting, Unko! I'll be curious about your take on the movie when it comes out.
Finally took the few minutes to watch it.
It's ok, but not enticing.
Talking about the "we've always been here" story premise, it's possible there will be an explanation for that in the film itself, but in general I feel the effects of the Blip are underwritten, strictly to make the world feel more recognizably like "our world" when I don't believe it would be. It started with me joking that the Fortnite servers would not still be up and went from there.
QuoteAnd you saw the Justice League. And the general audience was pretty familiar with those characters.
True as that was, Justice League and the characters that were in that movie had their own, very DC-Warner Bros specific issues that don't have a lot to do with the way Marvel's done it. People knew who the Hulk, Iron Man, Cap and Thor were by the time The Avengers came out, and that movie was super successful.
I half-joked for years that the Inhumans movie was never going to come out, and while I joked, I genuinely believed that and it didn't happen. It got made as a quickly forgotten tv show seemingly everyone except me and my viewing group hated.
Eternals, whatever it is, isn't that.
QuoteI am 100% sure they are not going with Thanos being a Titanian/Titan Eternal in the movieverse. He's just, what, a random alien from question mark?
Thanos does mention his home planet was Titan, but how he was born, to whom, and where his strength comes from could be explored at some point.
QuoteMarvel managed to take another group of relatively unknown characters (GotG), and made a fun-filled action/comedy series of films.
I actually didn't like the original trailer for GotG when I first saw it, finding it far too different in tone compared to the comics. James Gunn and the cast won me over, like many others, and that reflected his style. Don't know about this one. The director's body of work, from what I looked up, is nothing like Gunn's.
I think it could work - Marvel's managed to hit a certain standard very reliably and is so successful they can shake off basically everything - so it'll probably be fine.
Avengers had several movies before to establish the characters,while JL didn't really. And the fixed version is 4 hours long. And Eternals is throwing a whole bunch of characters, out at once. So they will either end up undistinguishable and generic; or the movie would have to be 3-4 hours long.
Quote from: HarryTrotter on May 30, 2021, 06:57:43 AM
Avengers had several movies before to establish the characters,while JL didn't really. And the fixed version is 4 hours long. And Eternals is throwing a whole bunch of characters, out at once. So they will either end up undistinguishable and generic; or the movie would have to be 3-4 hours long.
That is true. Hawkeye didn't get much content though.
Guardians worked out. But Guardians also has a tree with a limited vocabulary, and while I appreciate that they got Rocket's origin in there, it's breezed by very quickly during a drunken rambling.
I also feel Drax is underused (so does Batista, but Batista always wants more primo material)
Surely they can do better than the X-Men movies where we often got "This person is also in the movie a little bit"
Quote from: Silver Shocker on May 30, 2021, 06:45:49 AM
QuoteI am 100% sure they are not going with Thanos being a Titanian/Titan Eternal in the movieverse. He's just, what, a random alien from question mark?
Thanos does mention his home planet was Titan, but how he was born, to whom, and where his strength comes from could be explored at some point.
Oh, did he?? Oops, sorry. I missed that.
Hmm, I wonder if they will talk about this then? Not that it needs to.
Eternals feels like they might have to focus more on certain characters. Sersi shows up in the trailer a lot. I could see having some kind of Sersi/Ikaris/Black Knight love triangle, but I honestly have no idea where they are going to take it. There's a ton of different material, and it can vary a lot depending on their plans.
Like, are they laying groundwork for a new version of the Avengers? Does this version contain Black Knight and Sersi?
I've been pretty off of Marvel for a bit now, with a lot of projects feeling like ads for the next project, which is a feeling they've had before.
For me, Wandavision, while having a dope premise, ended up feeling like just an ad for Dr. Strange 2 and Captain Marvel 2. Falcon/Winter Soldier was definitely just an ad for Captain America 4 or whatever they'll call it.
Setup is cool but not when there's basically nothing going on in the main program other than this.
So if they can drop that feeling AND they can not do their very tried origin trope of having the main character fight their double as the villain, then I can get on board.
(Yes, deviants are a lot like "bad" eternals, but they're cool monsters!)
STILL, I would have liked to see an epic Game of Thrones style one season series for them.
(EDIT: I would like to say I ended up rereading Eternals original run and it's way less good than I remembered, ha ha ha. But the basic ideas are cool. I've always loved space gods and hidden peoples)
New Spider-Man trailer has dropped:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKVSRXqsCDw
It looks...interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about all of this, but I bet it will be a lot of fun.
Saw the trailer on TV tonight. I'm getting a bit of a Brand New Day vibe from it. I hope I'm wrong, or that they find a successful way to do it.
I'm certainly curious how this film will turn out, but I must say I'm intrigued. I genuinely want to see this.
Spoiler
Oh man, Alfred Molina as Doc Ock at the end looking so great. I'm looking forward to him, I'm looking forward to seeing the Goblin. This should be an interesting movie for sure.
So multiverse is the new gimmick, it seems. I hope they don't overdo it,but I know this is going to become a new CGI hole in the sky for the genre.
I am getting a bit iffy on it, especially since Spidey is indeed dipping his toes in that pool, but I guess we'll see how it fares.
Something else I wanted to bring to people's attention.
For anyone reading this who might be interested and have D+ or might get it later, Disney recently added the Blu-Ray short "All Hail The King" introducing the concept of the true Mandarin, who is of course the villain of Shang-Chi. I wholeheartedly approve of this. So anyone who hasn't had the opportunity to check out this nifty and sort of important curiosity in the MCU back catalogue, you now have a decent opportunity. I'll likely re watch it around the time I end up watching Shang-Chi, which I've heard is getting great reviews. Supposedly the true Mandarin is one of the best MCU villains yet.
Yes, but what I've heard is that
Spoiler
The Mandarin is Shang-Chi's father. I know they couldn't use Fu Manchu, but still....meh. Making an Iron Man villain to a Shang-Chi one? Meh.
I do believe that was done at least once in the comics. Maybe in the Ultimate universe?
Spoiler
I saw a tv spot that gave that reveal away, so I knew already myself. I don't have any strong feelings about it personally.
So, I finally got around to seeing Eternals.
While I did like it a little better than Shang Chi (Turns out I find Awkwafina incredibly annoying), it's not great. To echo my earlier comments, maybe if this had been a Disney+ series it would have had the time to develop these ancient characters a lot better. Slowly introduce them and flesh out their concept more. Then the "big reveals" would have had more impact, and the characters would have been less shallow.
That being said, I thought it did so-so with what it had, but the end result was a bit boring to me. I fell asleep during a fight scene or two.
I'll put my other thoughts in spoilers.
Spoiler
Marvel is never a direct comic adaptation, as we all know. There are a few things in this that really change certain characters, though.
Sersi, to begin with, is given main character treatment. Okay, Sersi is dope AND she was an Avenger, so if they are setting her up to be one again (with Black Knight) I'm all for it. However, her character in this is completely changed. She DOES like humans the most of every Eternal, that much is the same, but they have lost her fun loving spirit. Plus, they stuck her in a monogamous relationship for 5000 years? That's completely unlike her. She frigs.
The other characters fulfill their roles in the movie, and their personalities closer to their comic counterparts. I especially liked Sprite's anger at being a child. Again, this would have felt better if it could have been more developed over the course of a series. Given the Ikaris is the "bad guy" and Sprite goes with him twist way more depth.
The Deviants are another wasted opportunity. This is a full race of mostly sentient beings, each one unique. They did a little bit of the "Eternals aren't really the good guys" but almost no "Deviants aren't really the bad guys."
In this they are little more than animals, and despite having unique designs, basically all look the same. They are a generic plot device characters, much like the Chitauri. They might as well just be Chitauri.
The movie also eliminated Thena and Kro's on and off millennia long relationship. This is a huge plot point. These characters have depth and shades of grey throughout, that were totally washed away.
Also what's up with Kro's Ultron voice? Yeah, that's supposed to be Kro. In name only.
Another huge plot point is that both the Eternals and Deviants were created from the ancestors of humans. Celestials made them, and then modern humans with latent genes that allow for certain humans to gain superpowers later on.
That's not a thing anymore. They trick you by saying they are aliens at first, but then turns out they are some kind of creature/robot/replicant fully created by Celestials. The thing where they can be reborn with wiped memory is from a certain comic run, but in this... what do they die every time? When they are reborn for another planet, do they look entirely different to match the species of the planet they were sent to? How many different groups of Eternals are there supposed to be now? Was Thanos' planet destroyed because of a Celestial egg?
Sorry, there are a bunch of questions now.
Also, humans suck. The Eternals invented everything for us, from the wheel to society. Without them, then what? We'd just be a bunch of mound living people, hunting fish with sticks, and that's it? Is that what this movie is trying to tell us? Also, I guess they taught us American Sign Language. (I'm not mad, I think it's pretty funny.)
The shows about "Ancient Aliens did Everything" are all 100% accurate?
Celestial design, they've decided to go with a more boring and organic look, I guess? Also, we hear them speak right out the gate. Okay, whatever.
I wonder if they are going to retcon that Ego calling himself a Celestial nonsense? Why he wouldn't call himself and Elder of the Universe or something is beyond me. Seems like an error you could fix with a little trickery and change all the digital copies with, at this point.
Anyway, these are set up for, what, an Avengers down the line? Or another Eternals? I don't really see a reason to have another Eternals movie, and my head keeps wondering when will they start building their next Avengers team? The space stuff could go in a Guardians movie or... well, who knows where they are going? They seem to have a lot of cosmic characters and plotlines now.
And a final complaint, that Bollywood number was too Americanized. In particular the singing, and not just because it was done in English. Come on, Bollywood is dope. Give us a full number.
Ha ha ha.
Sorry, ha ha, that's a bunch of writing. Probably more than the movie actually warrants? Oh well, I am just thinking out loud.
Also, what's with the digs at the Uni-Mind? Uni-Mind IS an awesome name. Phastos, I believe in you!
Spoiler
Oh yeah, and I forgot my biggest question which is, why are the Eternals so selectively bad or good at fighting Deviants? This is actually a complaint with most science fantasy action movies. Like how Buffy can't take one of those uber vamps in season 7, but then she CAN take one, and then everybody can casually kill them in an all out war. I wish shows would stop doing this.
I saw dr strange yesterday, and... ho boy this is a movie i have conflicted feelings about. I'm gonna keep the real big stuff out of even my spoiler tags jic, but for the nonspoileryest version of my take: Its a well made film that is almost uniquely not made for me, and it will be a bit more polarizing. I recommend it even if i dont personally like it, if that makes sense. Everyone will have a different reaction to it.
Spoiler
Lets get this out of the way: cameos are tacked on and almost insulting. These do not feel nearly as earned as nwh, serve very little function, and only one of them matters long term (because the actor will likely play the "main" universe version). In hindsight especially theres a piece of... sound that is just SUPER blatant. Again, trying to be spoiler lite, but you'll know what i mean. It exists for no other reason than "look at me! I'm doing the thing!"
That said, it is admittedly a super minor issue in the movie. The bigger barrier to me personally is one i suspected going in: I'm not, and never have been, a fan of horror. And this movie dips into those elements as much as they can with a pg13 rating.
I also just dont like the story it's telling. It does that well and the motivations are natural but like... i still don't like how dark they took a character. It rubs me wrong, even though it's the natural outcome of everything we've seen. Can't really undo what they've done.
Love And Thunder. Where to begin? You have to have certain tastes I think? One for Thor and Jane romance which is fine I say but you have to want to see that. Also for real out there science fiction of yesterday because this felt like a love letter to directors like Tobe Hooper. I was expecting Barbarella to ice skate on a manta ray wearing a skunk outfit out the blue at any point. Also a love letter to Guns And Roses, also that's fine though then they should have included more of their songs which they do not. You have to have an appreciation for certain things that happened in the other films. For example friends of the director and their kids showing up, taking the spotlight and derailing the plot while playing "Just Some Regular Person You Never Heard Of" and saying quirky one liners that really aren't funny or cute. And that happens a lot, more than previous films. Though Janes friend does show up out of the blue for no reason but is not wearing not wearing a knitted cap. And actually she delivers this time as opposed to seeming like a person visiting a film set in the second film. Also just a cameo for her. Speaking of cameos the ad is deceptive in that that's all the Guardians Of The Galaxy do. Most have bare bones lines with the exception of Pratt and he's still a minor plot device. Just in case anyone is thinking of going because they want some Rocket Raccoon action or something. You won't see it here.
The actors deliver. Maybe the most entertaining thing next to the FX and action sequences. Especially Bale's villain. He plays deranged like it's second nature to him. His character is the most plot worthy and feels completed from start to finish. I can't say as much for the rest which is a complaint because again the center of the plot is supposed to be Thor and Jane's relationship. And it's there, a lot but it ends up anticlimactic. As does about anything else in the film, in fact it's going to steer right off the road over and over.
Overall it's a "Popcorn Movie" imo. Not something you're going to want invest yourself in. Just a bunch of fun noise, colors, movements and stupid jokes. Personally I don't mind, I'm there to be stimulated and that was most of the movies in the 80's when I grew up in fact it was pretty much every action movie. I otherwise think it's a pretty stupid and trippy production and more comes off like the directors personal vanity project and a college frat boy doing a thing because they think it be cool if that happened as opposed to doing it because the story demanded it happen. I do feel I wasted my money and should have waited for a cheap matinee at best and for it to stream at worst. You'll show up to see The Guardians Of The Galaxy but instead you'll see a lot of wealth peoples kids who they bought the present of being in a Marvel movie.
Most of my reaction is gonna be copied over from discord, tho I will tweak it in places as I go. My opinions are pretty similar to those going in.
Benton and those with similar mindsets towards the previous film will hate it, and should not watch it (tho I doubt he was planning on it)
Personally I liked it, but I also dont have a great attachment to classic or modern thor stories. I think mileage may vary here, especially with Bale's Gor. He does what the film needed. I do feel there's either a cut scene and/or another scene was cut down for time, but he works as an antagonist. That being said, his reasons for attacking Gods are believable and I totally buy it. Separate from the comic character (who I'm not sure he lives up to based on what i know) he's decent.
There's stuff I'm torn on, but it's a good movie overall. There's a lot more... pathos here, if anyone was worried about it being just Ragnarok again. The gags are there, but there's a bit of an edge to this one. More of a bite.
The dark realm or whatever was GORGEOUS. The way they handled it was so striking. I'd go so far as to say between that and the other brilliant uses of color, this was the most visually striking movie since Dr Strange 1. Even moreso than MoM.
Overall, I think the story is weak in a few spots, Gor is better than expected but still kinda eh compared to what I know of his comic self, and it is another film like Ragnarok. It's BETTER than Ragnarok imho, but your personal mileage will vary, especially with how it handles both Gor and the various Pantheons. Like, I fully believe it of the Greek ones don't misunderstand, but I do choke on the idea that Bast is complicit, if that makes sense.
But to be clear, I quite liked it. Not top 10 material, but it's quite good, and Janes arc in particular is something I do think fans of the first 2 films should watch.
I'm in line with Slick A.
The Humor is now starting to take me out of the Movie.
Where once the Humor was there to reinforce and serve the Movie it seems now the Movie is there to reinforce and serve the Humor.
I dont want to see Thor as a Comedy with some Dramatic Moments.
I want to see Thor as a Drama with some Comedic moments.
Or I wont be invested.
At this point Marvel has gone overboard with its Comedic Routine and is becoming a Parady of itself.
This is why the Dramatic was Anticlamtic Slick A.
If the Comedy drives the Drama then the Drama will be climatic if the Drama serves the Comedy then the Comedy becomes climatic...n here it was all about the Joke until it becomes a Joke...
N I dont mind Thor using Jokes I just dont want Thor to become a Joke.
N I was afraid of that after Ragnorok.
While I liked it I was afraid the people liking it too much..n the Director pushing it to another level with the Comedy...bcse it was already tetering on the Comedic..
Unfortunately that's exactly what they did.
To me it became a comedy and I for one cant get into the dramatic when I'm watching a comedy...its one or the other unless you can find that delicate balance...Which they did in Ragnorok.
The comedic thing started with Gardians of the Galaxy...
They found something that worked and tried to use it as a Formula until it became overkill.
It works well for Gardians of the Galaxy but it wont work for everything.
Like DC tried with being Dark..
While it works for Batman it wont work for Superman.
Every Corporation or Studio is looking for some fix all formula that they can just mass produce to feed to us and cash in on us...not realizing we are a thinking Audience/Consumer...
N it eventually backfires..
If you dont believe me just wait until Avatar 2 comes out with a breath of fresh air...
N watch how it booms.
P.S.Its sad too because when the very first Superhero movies came out they were always made into comedies because they always felt the Audience wouldnt take the Genere seriously.
Comic Book fans Screamed that this was a worthy Genre to be taken Seriously..
Then finally when people took the comic book genre seriously we had this Boom.
Just to go back to the Comedic.
We have come full circle
And may be witnessing the beginning of the end boys.
I disagree. Thor going the more silly comedy route is more or less the niche they've been in since Ragnarok. It's not a niche that even I'm super fond of (I straight up told my roommate yesterday I liked L&T more than Ragnarok only because of the drama elements) but MoM was pretty dark. Shang Chi, Spider-Man, even Eternals (meh as it was) were all played straight. Wakanda Forever will open with BP being dead.
The issue isn't Marvel going all in on stupid funny goofy. It's that you have a director and a main actor on the Thor series specifically who both want to go full comedy with it because they have the same irreverence for the material that Snyder did, they just went the other way with it. But at least they're having fun with it.
For all the other garbage I give Marvel, they have had a good handle on keeping a good level of variety on their films. Heist movies, Space Operas, big dumb action movies, political thrillers... they're all spaced throughout. It is also not a coincidence that this dumb, relatively brainless comedy that still had themes of death and rebirth was placed between MoM (a child-friendly horror movie with themes of loss) and Wakanda Forever (a movie we know features the death of OG Black Panther and likely will feature his replacement stepping into the role). The idea is to place something a lot lighter between the two potentially darker films (MoM's music battle notwithstanding :rolleyes: ) much like Ant-Man 2 was specifically placed after Infinity War to give that breath of fresh air before Endgame.
I get you Tomato and I agree with you..
Well placed and well balanced goes well.
But when overdone it turns into just a comedy.
Thus becoming a Paraody of itself.
It's a delicate balance...there is a difference between being a comedy and being a joke.
Not saying its come to that I just to dont want it to come to that.
At least not yet I hope.
I just feel in Ragnorok it was better paced and better placed humor.
It had a tighter grip between the comedic and the drama.
Just my opinion.
Eh, respectfully my opinion is on the opposite end of things. Neither is good at it mind you, but I never got drama from Ragnarok, ever. It makes fun of the previous films tragedy, Odin's goodbye is undercut by the revelation he was a terrible person who hid his awful past, the Warriors 3 are killed off almost entirely without weight (Hogun is the only one who gets ANYTHING resembling a good death) and about the only time I felt anything was some minor bits of character with Loki. Otherwise it's jokey joke get help nonsense. That's not to say I didn't have fun on the ride, but there's no meat on the bones for me.
L&T was more... bipolar, I guess. The comedy was... dumber I'll grant you (the whole realm of gods scene), but it contrasted those serious moments even more. 80% of the Jane stuff (when it's not trying to be cute with the flashbacks) is played straight. Jane's dilemma at the end is more emotionally impactful for me than anything in Ragnarok. That little bit of extra meat makes it a bit more palatable for me.
Again though, I think you're worrying over nothing. Feige/Marvel have always had a good sense of balance with this stuff. There's a reason the comic movie trend hasn't died off like all these doomsayers have been predicting it would for years... it's because they've gone out of their way to not have every movie be the same, to blend in tones and genres and ideas for each film so it's not just dumb action movie after dumb action movie. It's just that this one movie trends on the dumber, farcical end of that spectrum.
I actually agree with just about everything you just said.
Especially the Death of the Hero 3...not even mentioned.
I guess that's why that scene with Sif was upsetting for me because they had a Moment to address the seriousness of that Moment and played it off with another Joke.
I just felt many moments were out of place which to me made it seem like you say Dumber then Ragnorok.
It just seemed to me Ragnorok was just a little bit more intelligent in its delivery.
I like what you said about the Variousness about the Genre and I do hope it's what helps keep it alive.
😀
I saw L&T opening weekend (something I avoid lately, but the theater wasn't too full). As y'all might know by now, Benton & I are pretty much in the same camp for how things should look & feel. The issues I had with Ragnarok (mostly silliness) continues here, and feels like it got cranked up a bit more, with a bit of bad rom-com thrown in. While I haven't read any in-comic appearances with him, I do *not* care for Korg's portrayal, which I think detracts too much from everything else. Some loose ends get tidied up, but not well. There were serious aspects to it, but I felt the film gave more weight to the comedy & silly portions of it, which waters down the story too much. And I did curse the movie at the end for making me care about a character that I had already decided that I was done with (which just means that part was done well -- damn them). All said & done, not my favorite (superhero/Marvel/Thor) movie, but it was entertaining, and I'll end up owning it on blu-ray & watching it again, but I expect I'll just grit my teeth through the silly bits.
MoM, I mostly liked, but I think leaks & trailers spoiled some things and made me expect more from it that wasn't there (same with NWH). I had expected it to be more of seeing *several* iterations of Earth, with several versions of heroes & groups, instead of somewhat focusing on only one. And I also didn't care for how Wanda was written/treated. She deserved better.
However, I will drop this here, mostly because I haven't seen it brought up anywhere around here yet. Can anyone explain to me what all the hate for Morbius is about? I'll admit it's not winning any awards, but I didn't really have too many problems with it (other than the SFX in the fight scenes making it rather muddy, visually). I thought it was an acceptable character intro to the movie universe (still not sure which universe is, though).
So I haven't seen hate for Morbius itself... well, not exactly. Biggest thing was that the trailers heavily featured shots of newspapers and graffiti involving Spider-Man that straight up wasn't in the movie, but mostly what I saw was just... the internet. Someone posted a "It's Morbin' Time" joke, the internet had fun with it and piled on even more... then Sony DRASTICALLY miscalculated the buzz (Thinking it was people just realizing it was out and disappointed it was out of theaters) and spent a whole bunch of money to re-release it... only for it to bomb again because anyone who was going to see it in theaters pretty much already had, which led to even MORE ridicule, until that just became a meme all on its own.
Beyond that there's general issues related to Jared Leto being kind of a garbage human (He apparently delayed production by being "method" and using his crutches to even go to the Bathroom, plus all the stuff he did as Joker, plus a bunch of other rumors I won't repeat here... not a good dude, basically). I've seen far more hate for Jared specifically than for Morbius, which just sounds kind of forgettable.
I didn't watch Morbius but couldn't avoid the chatter about it and what I got was:
1. Basic fandom snubbing of everything even when it's their favorite thing. I learned long ago this is just how a lot of fans express their enjoyment for a thing. Consider cable news shows, people like the anxiety of those and seeing (ironically paying for and keeping wealthy) public figures they both despise and fixate on all the same. It's a bit tricky to explain for me but I learned to adapt to that. Clearly the people that snub these things are buying, watching and focused on the things. If they didn't care for that it wouldn't be present. You probably can't even name a single property that you also can't find a verbal drubbing of. I say it's the nature of consumerism imo.
2. It's fun to chant online. Not so much to say "I thought it was okay". (see #1)
3. It seemed more over than all else the fandom didn't like that it didn't do well. NWH and MOM for example were spat on hard before they were released (which a form of advertising known as The Dove Marketing Method (http://"https://surface.syr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1479&context=honors_capstone"), and it works well (see #1). "The city likes it's sunshine but it loves it's dirt even more" -Brian Azzarello). Because it means the likelihood is less new content will not be greenlit in the future, noted that the film companies are cutting tentative releases currently. It's kind of obvious their projections show less comic book superhero stuff moving units in the near future, to be expected in a saturated mature market, well maybe within another given streaming apps platforms. So anyways most are able to see down the line and look at these other projected releases and consider they'll read news of them being scrapped at some point. Most are not good at expressing industry views but that's what I managed to decipher of what they're saying.
4. As Tomato says a loathing for the actor and/or media representation thereof. You'll see a lot of this with Ezra Miller going forward. Then again it "can" actually garner more reach thus people interested in seeing it, because Dove Method, but that didn't seem to stick the landing for Morbius. It of course gets engagements for media outlets (aka clickbait/rage or anxiety baiting) so it will be ever present.
5. Neglected often by us in fandom, the majority of a worldwide audience are not comic book readers thus do not carry the nostalgia nor bonus expectations of these productions thus it falls to different reasons for like or snubbing a film, add cultural differences of course and differences in how anything is promoted in any region.
On a side I think No Way Home upstaged it in part. It came out to close to that successful one thus inside it's shadow. I'm not a rush to see the film but more because I don't get to see much at all so I'm fairly frugal about what I do finally end up watching. But you know, all art has a target audience, someone it speaks to. Sometimes it doesn't speak as many is all. I'm sure that film had a special place for someone out there.