In the recent upset over the DCUG :banghead: I think we need established written rules for making mods. This should be a community project :thinkingideawhere we can come to a consensus on the rules. This way when some one starts a mod everything is clear and no one can get upset with the result. :panice
I understand that when someone makes a skin it is their artwork. But where is the line when it is a copy write character that is owned by Marvel DC etc? If a skin and mesh are released to the community then the community has the permission to use it in the game. Most have a read me file that tells who made it. I think if what is released to the community the artist is giving his permission for it to be used by the community. Now the artist has the right not to release it to the community then no one will be able to use it, unless they ask the artist for permission to use it. I have seen people post their artwork but not release it which is their choice. So if the mesh and skin are released in the community in sense the permission is give for it's use in the spirit of the game. Whether it is a mod, rumble room or addition to game. If we come to an agreement on the written rules this will stop the upset that happen over DCUG. :rickbm
I made a permission thread in the meshes forum so that creators can express their wishes as to how their work may be used in Mods.
So far a number have done so, so I would hope it's clear whose work may be used in a Mod and whose may not.
I strongly urge creators to make their wishes clear publicly, rather than PM back and forth or "avoiding an argument", because we need this sorted out.
We all want fair use, and to respect each other and creator's wishes.
The only way that we can respect their wishes is if they make them known.
No offense Green Hornet but how do you have right to start this topic?
While I do have a definite opinion on the subject, I think IPS's initial reaction is the correct one. This discussion should be tabled until a much later time.
Besides, given the fact that this has only come up once after so many years means that it is unlikely to come up again in the near near future, so it is certainly practical to just put the discussion off for a while.
And AA is also correct, GH. You aren't a modder, artist, or mesher, so why in the world are you basically trying to start another possible community damaging argument right after the last one? You have no vested interest in this subject, so I suggest you leave it for those who do and just enjoy such toys as are still available for your use.
So when can it be discussed then?
And by whom?
Community rules should be open to the whole community regardless of who may have made what.
ok, i'm damn glad i'm drunk every time i come to this site now.
how does Green Hornet have no vested interest in the siuation.
I assume he is a player of the game, and a player of mods to the game. his interests are that we as community can allow creators (skinners, fx'ers, meshers, skopes, hexers and mod'ers...thats a lot of er's) to create content for others to enjoy.
He has vested interests in this, as do we all.
Seriously, we cant all be superstars, and I truly appreciate the content that the superstars do create, cripes i aspire to be one, but i'm a damn fool and my own lack of talent and conviction have stopped such a fate from happening.
Ok, so tensions are still running high (as evidenced by this post) but what, are we going to have a moratorium on discussing mods for 1,2,3 months?
There have been at least 3 threads started by people in different sections of the site that want to open discussion in an optimistic manner...
maybe those posts are too optimistic and "let's pretend nothing happened" in nature for the offended parties.
Now, I tend to agree with IPS that it's too soon. However personal barbs at lack of knowledge aren't necessary.
Personally I find it strange how this community is against torrents. But I understand that it is because of our subject matter itself why such disagreements and discussions exist.
We're all gawdammed obsessed with superheroes, the idea of "doing the right thing" and all of the heroic endeavors that they entail.
This extends to ideas of personal property versus communal sharing. pride versus theft. Cripes, i wish ow_tiobe and dr. mike would chime in at one point.
We've all invested a lot into this game, be it time (in producing content, and in consuming content) or in money (supporting sites) so please, allow everybody an opinion.
Quote from: detourne_me on January 25, 2009, 06:09:52 PM
ok, i'm damn glad i'm drunk every time i come to this site now.
how does Green Hornet have no vested interest in the siuation.
I assume he is a player of the game, and a player of mods to the game. his interests are that we as community can allow creators (skinners, fx'ers, meshers, skopes, hexers and mod'ers...thats a lot of er's) to create content for others to enjoy.
He has vested interests in this, as do we all.
Seriously, we cant all be superstars, and I truly appreciate the content that the superstars do create, cripes i aspire to be one, but i'm a damn fool and my own lack of talent and conviction have stopped such a fate from happening.
Ok, so tensions are still running high (as evidenced by this post) but what, are we going to have a moratorium on discussing mods for 1,2,3 months?
There have been at least 3 threads started by people in different sections of the site that want to open discussion in an optimistic manner...
maybe those posts are too optimistic and "let's pretend nothing happened" in nature for the offended parties.
Now, I tend to agree with IPS that it's too soon. However personal barbs at lack of knowledge aren't necessary.
Personally I find it strange how this community is against torrents. But I understand that it is because of our subject matter itself why such disagreements and discussions exist.
We're all gawdammed obsessed with superheroes, the idea of "doing the right thing" and all of the heroic endeavors that they entail.
This extends to ideas of personal property versus communal sharing. pride versus theft. Cripes, i wish ow_tiobe and dr. mike would chime in at one point.
We've all invested a lot into this game, be it time (in producing content, and in consuming content) or in money (supporting sites) so please, allow everybody an opinion.
Bravo (so sarcasm intended)
Matters like this involve a community as a whole. Bickering and arguing don't solve a matter and I agree it's time to table the matter and let things cool. I don't think it's right to exclude a member of the community because they don't make something themselves. We're all a dysfunctional family (at least to my eyes) and the whole family gets an opinion. Although I do agree .. too soon to bring things up. and when/if they are... let's let it be civil and not a fight. Let the fighting be done and perhaps a community poll or something made later to establish what if any rules there are.. and they be written down afterwards.
I think everyone in the community could have insight in the discussion. We know the who are the best meshers and skinners here and sometimes a new one comes along. Rather than starting out on what we do not agree on. Lets start on what we agree on and work from there. If it was not for :ff: :ffvstr: we would not be here. Now if you want to take jabs at me go ahead. But that will not solve any issues. Now we could start kicking people out of the community because we do not agree with them. Question being who will be left? I did not start this to be an arguement among all of us but to get common ground and work things to the benefit of all. Lets not take the stand I will take all my toys and go home. Now if you think I don't belong here and I have no right to say anything then I will leave. :rickbm
i'm down with that idea.
I think it would be great for Tommyboy to moderate it if he wants to. :rickbm
I'm OK with a discussion in a month, but I'm not convinced we need a moderator, or that I should be it if we do. My views are partisan, even though I understand and respect the views of those who feel differently.
I would hope we can reason together at such time.
Quote from: detourne_me on January 25, 2009, 06:09:52 PM
We're all gawdammed obsessed with superheroes, the idea of "doing the right thing" and all of the heroic endeavors that they entail.
This extends to ideas of personal property versus communal sharing. pride versus theft
This is actually more true than you think. ips I have no idea why you think Green Hornet is so misinformed. Have you ever seen a 'cease and desist' letter or email concerning intellectual property?
There is no such thing as "copyright/authorship rights over the work they've created because it is their creative interpretation of the intellectual property".
I've read the BCUG thread and I would go as far as to say you were sometimes forceful getting your point across. In this case I'm chiming in cause there is no matter of opinion here, your actually wrong. The holder of an IP owns all of that IP. If you do a derivative work of that IP they own it (sounds wierd the first time you read that, I know).
I don't know if you know anything about how this relates to Machinima, but I'll tell you it does so a fair piece. In the 9 or so years I've been making Machinima, I've seen a fair number of cease and desists, read articles (written by legal experts) about it, and even spoken to a few lawyers. As far as I'm aware this ownership of creative interpretation you speak of is fictional. What you are talking about falls under derivative works. Copyright wise you have no leg to stand on with that.
I started this post with a quote from detourne_me because from the very moment people started making Marvel or DC skins (or any label), that stuff has always been owned by the IP holders. When a C&D is issued, I've often, if not always seen it with instructions to hand over all offending materials after which time the auther is asked to delete it from their computers.
All "rules" that are followed here and have been followed up till this point are a matter of courtesy and respect, NOT followed because of any legal issue.
In the case of DCUG only DC has any legal say.
As far as I could tell Benton cancelled the mod because of respect for the artists whose work was involved and because he didn't like what this was doing to the community, not because he had a legal obligation to the artists who made the particular skins or mods.
So no offence, but it's
your understanding of copyright that seems underdeveloped.
Legal arguments on the internet. They are strange things cause few people know a lot about IP law. As a result the the more vehemently a person presses their point the more they appear to be right to others who also know little about it. I hate these arguments, and I won't let this become one so this will be my last post on this matter.
I understand why you WANT what you say to be true. You put hard working into making what you make. The idea that you don't own that effort isn't nice at all. But if you really do believe that you do, consider this.
If for example, I made a DCUG all with DC skins that you made and you didn't approve, all you can do is ask me to take it down. That's the entirety of your legal power. If I started distributing the skins against your wishes, you actually think you would have some kind of claim in court? No. You'd have nothing. DC would though.
The limit of your power is to convince sites or forums not to support such efforts, or not to link to it, and it would have to be done of their own volition. You can't email an ISP or hosting service demanding it be taken down, you don't have that right.. but DC does.
Even if I started selling the mod you can legally do nothing other than inform DC, you're entitled to a grand total of $0... but DC could actually file for damages and take some or all of that money (and then some). You have the right to do none of these things. This is intellectual property man. This is a realm in which you create things yet don't own them. It happens everyday.
So please feel free to re-iterate what you've previously said, you seem to do that a lot. the last thing we are doing is arguing the same point.
Personally I believe you feel your influence on this matter is waiving, and that's why your resorting to this. This community works on honour and not law for good reason.
Aaand we're done.
Please can we either start a new discussion on IP law and copyright, or wait the month and throw it into the Big Debate?
is this a fight about when we should talk about the fight?
Also IP law and copyright? Really? Last time I checked we do not own any of these characters we are always bitching about.
yes please go to PM on this.. intellectual talk makes my head hurt.
Quote from: ips on January 25, 2009, 08:07:26 PM
thanks. this really could have been handled via pm if you wanted to challenge my knowledge of copyright.
The way I've seen it you're misleading the community. Not a private matter by a long shot, and also something difficult to simply let lie for a month. My personal note at the end is more IM suitable, but not the rest of the post.
Having read your last post, I really do wish I had less to do so I could tell you where you're going
oh so wrong, but I've said my piece to you as far as this instance goes be it by PM or otherwise.
Nemesis, the previous argument had nothing to do with copyright issues. The artists involved actually gave permission IPS's stuff was immediately pulled. It goes slightly further than that.
I think the community pretty much came to an agreement on what you are talking about a long time ago. The artist controls distribution rights, period.
catwhowalksbyhimself, I think you miss my point.
I know that it's not a legal issue because legally, there are no rights to DC or Marvel characters held within this community.
If you read my first message it ended with a reminder that this community works on honour and not law. By that I mean respect as opposed to IP or any legal laws.
I tried to correct ips but he thinks he has it licked. I've left it there.
Quote from: ips on January 25, 2009, 06:12:06 PM
we all have a right to peaceful co-existence here. anyone should be able to discuss this. but what's the harm in letting at least a couple weeks go by and the current issues die before we start a new divisive argument. cat is right. there aren't many times this sorta problem has come up. it's not pressing that it be discussed while most of us are still bitter. (yes that includes me)
Seconded. Let it rest for now.
Quotedood, let it go. you're the only one arguing about copyright. you're the only one who's brought it up (in any way) in years. it's not even relevant to any of the discussions we've had.
He's correct.
Regardless, I think we should let it all drop for a month and you are welcome to join in that discussion then.
Mods/Admins? Lock for a month? Please? *puppy dog eyes*
I actually want there to be a special sub-forum called "the Thunderdome" where all future arguments will take place.
Two posters enter, but only two posters leave! Slightly peeved, because nobody ever "wins" on the internet..although everyone always thinks they will..
Dah Dah DAAAAAHH!
actually at NPI forum we HAD a Thunderdome
Quote from: ips on January 26, 2009, 12:58:21 AM
anyone ever use it?
I think so, but for the life of me I can't remember who or when.
Also. Win for Tommyboy.
Quote from: ips on January 26, 2009, 12:56:03 AM
lol. that's my fav post ever i think.
Thankyew, I'll be here all week, try the veal..
Quote from: Vertex on January 26, 2009, 12:56:48 AM
actually at NPI forum we HAD a Thunderdome
See? It's worked retroactively, THAT's how good an idea it is!
once or twice but I think only for fun
Quote from: ips on January 26, 2009, 12:58:21 AM
anyone ever use it?
Syn (or HQ) vs. Vlad. I'm pretty sure it was used once for them. Hrm.
i have some thoughts. i think i am clear in my head on this, and not overcome with feeling.
i don't think waiting a month will help. ppl will just get angry then instead of now. the important thing is to calmly discuss the issues. the only reason i am posting this is because i have come to some insights i want to share.
we have no mod precedents. we do have other precedents.
we have kitbashing precedents. if i kitbash and release, that is wrong. with good reason.
if i have skins from tommyboy, ips, and unkoman and they say i can kitbash and release as my own, that seems to me to be ok, based on past precedent. i don't think i need every skinners permission to release these hypothetical new skins.
if i choose only certain skinners to bash from, and have all their permission, that is not monopolizing. it is saying that the skinners that don't agree and don't want me to do not get their parts in my skins. and that feels like force i think.
please. if this post makes you angry, pm me. i will try to calmly discuss it with you.
if you have an explanation that will help me understand this better, and help others understand it better, please calmly post a reply.
Bil, I think I'm pretty calm on the matter.
I'm willing to discuss it, but if others want to leave it a while, I have to listen to what they are saying and try to respect that.
Imagine we were all in a bar, and an argument like this started, and some were saying "lets not do this till we've all cooled down a bit". I'd like to think I wouldn't keep pushing the matter till someone snapped and glassed me (for americans, smash a beer glass in my face). Because I'd see their anger, hear it in their tone of voice, read their body posture. And then I'd glass them first...no, wait bad example..
So, that's why I'm reluctantly putting off a big public debate till the month is up. Or less, if people come around sooner.
My grievance is not with any individual or group of people. I feel we as a community let Benton down by encouraging him to make the Mod, and then remembering the "rule" too late. This isn't aimed at the people who bought it up, but at us all. We need to do better by each other, to not fall into recrimination or bitterness at the first sign of a difference of opinion. We need to move forward, and today, tonight, I don't have those answers. I don't know how, or even if we can make this right in a way that won't leave someone feeling some wrong has been done. I need the time to think, and to know what I say and do isn't some misunderstanding or passing mood, that I mean it.
You know I'll talk via PM with you in the meantime, and if enough other people feel Now Is The Time for Public Talk, I'll try to make some sense here. But if we are just going to butt heads again and argue round in circles, I don't think that helps anyone.
kk! thank you. want to clarify. i didn't mean disrespect. don't mean to push the matter.
i was angry, said some crazy things, and i feel i 'came around sooner', as you put it.
i came around sooner, and my post is there for anyone who also comes around sooner. or later. it will be there in a month.
no agenda. just seeking a deeper understanding so that we can achieve a harmonious group mentality which has been so prevalant in this group for so many years. overall i mean.
Quote from: bearded on January 26, 2009, 03:03:33 AM
kk! thank you. want to clarify. i didn't mean disrespect. don't mean to push the matter.
i was angry, said some crazy things, and i feel i 'came around sooner', as you put it.
i came around sooner, and my post is there for anyone who also comes around sooner. or later. it will be there in a month.
no agenda. just seeking a deeper understanding so that we can achieve a harmonious group mentality which has been so prevalant in this group for so many years. overall i mean.
Hey, if I thought we'd get anywhere, I'd start up again tonight.
Maybe if I type the same stuff out but in a much bigger font, all-caps, I'll win...
Good exchange. A thought - how about a community rules forum - a place where we can debate these issues - not a Thunderdome per se, but maybe a place where we can channel such discussion - complete with pertinant stickies aobut existing agreed upon rules. Maybe some redundacnies will develop, but maybe that might help avoid (some) future altercations
Quote from: tommyboy on January 26, 2009, 03:12:08 AM
Quote from: bearded on January 26, 2009, 03:03:33 AM
kk! thank you. want to clarify. i didn't mean disrespect. don't mean to push the matter.
i was angry, said some crazy things, and i feel i 'came around sooner', as you put it.
i came around sooner, and my post is there for anyone who also comes around sooner. or later. it will be there in a month.
no agenda. just seeking a deeper understanding so that we can achieve a harmonious group mentality which has been so prevalant in this group for so many years. overall i mean.
Hey, if I thought we'd get anywhere, I'd start up again tonight.
Maybe if I type the same stuff out but in a much bigger font, all-caps, I'll win...
i see your point. and i apologize. i meant well.
Quote from: doctorchallenger on January 26, 2009, 03:18:04 AM
Good exchange. A thought - how about a community rules forum - a place where we can debate these issues - not a Thunderdome per se, but maybe a place where we can channel such discussion - complete with pertinant stickies aobut existing agreed upon rules. Maybe some redundacnies will develop, but maybe that might help avoid (some) future altercations
NO!!11 I want a thunderdome!
Kidding..
I like the way you're thinking, actually. Sort of a ..forum within the forum where those concerned could go for arbitration and discussion and clarification, and everyone sane could avoid like the plague...
I just don't believe what I'm reading here. The response to this thread is a perfect example of the elitism that's dividing this community. Anyone should be able post about any thing they want - as long as the forum rules are followed. You have a choice whether or not to post in the thread. IPS, takes it upon himself to tell us when it's okay to post about a certain topic, yet he can keep his Avatar Pic, which is a blatant reminder of the topic itself. IPS can post wherever he wants, in any thread, each time reminding everyone of the topic he doesn't want anyone talking about! Amazing! If he really wanted the topic not to be discussed, then why hasn't he changed his Avatar back? Hmmm?
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 02:35:46 PM
I just don't believe what I'm reading here. The response to this thread is a perfect example of the elitism that's dividing this community. Anyone should be able post about any thing they want - as long as the forum rules are followed. You have a choice whether or not to post in the thread. IPS, takes it upon himself to tell us when it's okay to post about a certain topic, yet he can keep his Avatar Pic, which is a blatant reminder of the topic itself. IPS can post wherever he wants, in any thread, each time reminding everyone of the topic he doesn't want anyone talking about! Amazing! If he really wanted the topic not to be discussed, then why hasn't he changed his Avatar back? Hmmm?
Are , like, you, trying, to, use, logic, or, something?
I'm sorry I'm kidding I get your point but I honestly think he's trying to kid about some of the name calling that went on and not the actual event but it is a good point.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 02:35:46 PM
I just don't believe what I'm reading here. The response to this thread is a perfect example of the elitism that's dividing this community. Anyone should be able post about any thing they want - as long as the forum rules are followed.
Actually if you want to blame anyone for the "who can post where" feel of this thread, it's me you should be pointing the finger at. I made the first snarky comments about Green Hornet not having a right to post about "Mod Rules" when he's not a contributor to this community. I hate to say it but if anyone should be posting threads l like this it should be people are actively giving not those who are actively requesting.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 02:35:46 PM
...yet he can keep his Avatar Pic, which is a blatant reminder of the topic itself.Amazing! If he really wanted the topic not to be discussed, then why hasn't he changed his Avatar back? Hmmm?
Also who cares about his avatar pic, your whole post comes off "I don't like IPS and here's a few examples".
Just my 2 cents.
IPS switching to this avatar is something along the lines of passive aggressive behavior, which is still aggressiveness.
Believe it or not, we aren't dumb. We noticed.
Quote from: Figure Fan on January 26, 2009, 03:44:19 PM
IPS switching to this avatar is something along the lines of passive aggressive behavior, which is still aggressiveness.
Believe it or not, we aren't dumb. We noticed.
I think that was his whole point. It's funny how comments like "evil wins" and other not very nice comments were made go left unmentioned but avatar pic to show you have a sense of humor about the whole situation gets you roasted alive.
This whole community is made up of hypocrites and finger pointers. <_<
i was the guilty one of breaking the first forum rule in the faq.
i publicly apologize to ips, and anyone else i offended. i got overemotional. ips can understand that, yes?
and i do get a glimpse of the sense of humor behind the avatar.
edit post script: and i will state, i spoke those words alone, and should not be lumped with anyone else.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 26, 2009, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 02:35:46 PM
I just don't believe what I'm reading here. The response to this thread is a perfect example of the elitism that's dividing this community. Anyone should be able post about any thing they want - as long as the forum rules are followed.
Actually if you want to blame anyone for the "who can post where" feel of this thread, it's me you should be pointing the finger at. I made the first snarky comments about Green Hornet not having a right to post about "Mod Rules" when he's not a contributor to this community. I hate to say it but if anyone should be posting threads l like this it should be people are actively giving not those who are actively requesting.
Also who cares about his avatar pic, your whole post comes off "I don't like IPS and here's a few examples".
Just my 2 cents.
The first few sentences in my post (the ones you quoted) could definitely be directed at you, AA, because I never mentioned any names. What gives anyone who is NOT an Admin or Mod to tell anyone they don't have the right to post about a certain subject. Someone already mentioned that GreenHornet has a vested interest in seeing this community flourish and not wanting to see the same thing happen again. Why even say what you said? Why not just ignore the thread? You really mean that YOU don't think that comes across as sounding elitist when you say that?
And if it sounds like I'm picking only on IPS, then maybe its because you don't have an avatar that represents the topic he doesn't want to talk about. Not only did he come across as elitist, like you did, but he took it a step further by being hypocritical and keeping his "humorous" Avatar. I never mentioned anything about his Avatar until he started up with the hypocrisy. The issue was never about the Avatar until he started telling people they shouldn't talk about the topic his Avatar represents - humorous or not. Also, IPS was the first responder to this thread telling GH that it's to soon to talk about this, so IPS is actually the first to the elitist finish line, not you, AA.
Quote from: ips on January 26, 2009, 03:36:25 PM
mmm?
now i'm being taken to task for having a sense of humour... sigh. i think i'm allowed to make light of the absolutely rediculous level to which things got by people actually calling me names and making character statements that i'm evil. would you rather my avatar be a little smiley in mourning or something? if the humour is lost on you, i would think the avatar would at least be a reminder so that in 4 weeks from now tommyboy would say... oh ya i better bring that up since we've all had time now...
woohoo... it really IS all about me... lol i can't wait to rub it in all my Xs faces...
So what are you saying, that it's okay to be humorous about the topic, but not serious? If Green Hornet would have started a thread making fun of the situation, that would have been okay? Sheesh!
How about just bringing back your old avatar? You don't need to be sarcastic. What makes you think ANY Avatar having to do with anything about this topic is okay, IPS? Ecspecially since you want the topic dropped?
Instead of doing the Right Thing, you'd rather say I don't have a sense of humor. How elitist.
:banghead:
Guys, let's not start this up again. I think we can agree that regardless of who you may or may not be, you should avoid bringing up this argument to give everyone time to cool off.
I would like to appeal to everyone to try to behave civilly, and if we can't like each other, or pretend to like each other, at least can we pretend that we don't dislike each other? It's making the kids cry to see us fighting all the time.
IPS's avatar breaks no forum rule I know of, it's an attempt at humour. I've had people punch me in the face in response to my "jokes" before, so I can gently inform him that one person's "funny" is another person's "insulting". Even if the intention is just to raise a smile. He may want to change it back, or he may not. That is his business. If you truly find it offensive, take it up with the forum Moderators.
People may be raising genuine concerns and valid issues, or defending themselves, or others, but it ain't helping much so far.
Less than four weeks, people. Sharpen your wits and your knives. Sharks and Jets, get ready to rummmmmble.
As to what will be on the agenda to discuss, I think it best we leave that open, in the sense that anyone can and should be able to bring up what concerns them.
Having said that, here's my two cents;
I personally want to discuss forum and community rules, the writing down and enforcement thereof, as well as possibly trying to put in place mechanisms or procedures to better handle "incidents" like our recent one.
I truly believe everyone went into that with nothing but good intentions, and we ended up in a rather bitter row.
That need not keep happening. Just as there are forum moderators, we may need community moderators to define and enforce community rules, (if that can be done), to step in and handle decisions and seek solutions. Otherwise we risk a system of "who can shout loudest and/or longest" to settle disputes. Maybe polling the community on issues is the way to go. "Oh yes it is!" and "oh no it isn't!" are not the best way in my opinion to settle things.
Maybe that all seems stupid, or futile or pompous, but it seems to me the "system" that gave us the DCUG row is a bit stupid and futile too.
Now we can argue for four weeks about what to argue about...
This community needs an enema.
I agree. Let's stop the personal attacks on both sides as it is getting us nowhere.
IPS, your avatar is baiting people regardless of your intentions. Please change it.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 05:19:18 PM
The first few sentences in my post (the ones you quoted) could definitely be directed at you, AA, because I never mentioned any names. What gives anyone who is NOT an Admin or Mod to tell anyone they don't have the right to post about a certain subject. Someone already mentioned that GreenHornet has a vested interest in seeing this community flourish and not wanting to see the same thing happen again. Why even say what you said? Why not just ignore the thread? You really mean that YOU don't think that comes across as sounding elitist when you say that?
If your invested interested is only in seeing more free content even at the cost of long time vets, I don't see how that is making the community "flourish". I think as a senior and very active community member and creator (almost 7 years) here, I have the right to say whatever I think especially if it has to do with content.
Do I think people should take what I say as the truth? No. Do I even expect people to agree with me? Hell no, but I think I earned a right to make my comments (especially if they are true) about freeloaders.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 05:19:18 PM
And if it sounds like I'm picking only on IPS, then maybe its because you don't have an avatar that represents the topic he doesn't want to talk about. Not only did he come across as elitist, like you did, but he took it a step further by being hypocritical and keeping his "humorous" Avatar. I never mentioned anything about his Avatar until he started up with the hypocrisy. The issue was never about the Avatar until he started telling people they shouldn't talk about the topic his Avatar represents - humorous or not. Also, IPS was the first responder to this thread telling GH that it's to soon to talk about this, so IPS is actually the first to the elitist finish line, not you, AA.
It doesn't sounds like anything because you simply are picking on IPS. I think your comments about his avatar are just a personal jab because he rubs a lot of people wrong from time to time (me included but I like him so I let it slide).
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 05:19:18 PM
Instead of doing the Right Thing, you'd rather say I don't have a sense of humor. How elitist.
Wait you think you are doing the "Right Thing" right? Wow, I guess IPS and everyone who agrees with him is doing the "Wrong Thing" and if you are doing the right thing than I don't want to be right.
Quote from: ips on January 26, 2009, 06:22:22 PM
want me to send you the PSD? make it easier to switch if up later if you wanna?
Yeah why not. I think I'm going to leave it for now though because if my comments make me come off as an elitist, than why not admit it?
...........................................................................................
And people used to go out of their way to say how great and mature FR was...and now people are just attacking each other left and right. A day of peace would be nice, ya'know. If you see something that makes you want to go out of your way to say something that'd cause some type of argument, leave it for another day. Go write it in a journal...but all this in-fighting just for the sake of it and not letting issues rest for awhile is damaging. Especially when I see some long time members saying things I wouldn't expect them to say. Why, exactly, would anyone want to be a part of this community and releasing things when this type of behavior is basically running free now.
Again, stop making this a "vs." thing just because you want an enemy to fight. Stop provoking and antagonizing people. You're not only affecting them and yourself, you're hitting the whole community now, and I wouldn't be surprised if less content was released because of some of the things people have shared recently.
*disappears in a puff of smoke...to play okami.*
*sigh*
AA, your avatar is also baiting people (or soon will). If you respect IPS and his request for a cooling off period, then please change it.
I have a few comments about this whole affair. The first is that we need to use specific terminology in any future discussions. This will help us communicate more clearly. For example, we can't have Mod Rules, only guidelines the community has established which we hope will be followed by folks making mods. Another example, what is a mod? In some minds DCUG was, but to others it was something else. I don't think we need an exhaustive list of terms, but a few, at least, to help people out.
Second, I do think a permission list is appropriate because not everyone that comes here has a working knowledge of the history of the community. New people do not have an understanding of what has been decided on in the past. Even long-time members forget certain things. Plus, each creator has certain things they do or do not done with their work. Their reasons are their own, and we must respect their decisions. Although it is reasonable that mod creators ask permission before using a skin, fx, mesh, etc., it is also reasonable that this information could be kept in a central location.
I do not think we want to see another fx pack/mod issue arise, and frankly our community should be organized enough to avoid it.
Thanks
:popcorn
Quote from: M25 on January 26, 2009, 06:41:10 PM
*sigh*
AA, your avatar is also baiting people (or soon will). If you respect IPS and his request for a cooling off period, then please change it.
To be fair, that was my point and Prev's made me realized I was being a little childish and was trying to annoy TaskmasterX because he called me an elitist. I have no clue why people keep throwing around "elitist" because its not the truth.
I think about this forum as a resource rather than a business but to be fair, freeloaders really do treat content creators like we are their employees. So if asking freeloaders why they think they have a say in content/creators affairs is elitist, than I must be one. So whatever, I'm just one content creator and obviously my feelings and opinions aren't as important as everyone's else.
I'm sorry for flailing nerves, and if anything I said seemed personal, but I was acting in the best interests of the community, at least IMO. I would have said it again to anyone who pulled the same stunt, so I'm not singling anyone out.
I've been around since the beginning as well and contributed to several projects, but I don't see the amount of contributions being the scale by which we determine who gets to speak about what. I would have never dreamed of telling anyone - freeloader or not, that they don't have the right to talk about or bring up a topic.
And speaking of freeloaders, I was once a freeloader, too. But through time, I learned about modding, scripting, and other things and eventually started contributing. So, given time (and courtesy) freeloaders could eventually end up contributing themselves. While I agree that freeloaders do treat content creators like their employees (or even worse), all those that don't contribute, aren't freeloaders.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
I'm sorry for flailing nerves, and if anything I said seemed personal, but I was acting in the best interests of the community, at least IMO. I would have said it again to anyone who pulled the same stunt, so I'm not singling anyone out.
I've been around since the beginning as well and contributed to several projects, but I don't see the amount of contributions being the scale by which we determine who gets to speak about what. I would have never dreamed of telling anyone - freeloader or not, that they don't have the right to talk about or bring up a topic.
And speaking of freeloaders, I was once a freeloader, too. But through time, I learned about modding, scripting, and other things and eventually started contributing. So, given time (and courtesy) freeloaders could eventually end up contributing themselves. While I agree that freeloaders do treat content creators like their employees (or even worse), all those that don't contribute, aren't freeloaders.
You heard the man.. so please feel fee to send me bowls of shrimp gumbo, chili, or fried chicken.. dang it my wife doesn't cook any of this stuff and I've been married 8 years!!! I need food!
Quote from: ips on January 26, 2009, 06:29:03 PM
cool. i'll send it over... and if anyone else would like a name tag or the psd i don't mind sending it.
Awesome, can I get in on that? I'ma gonna make mine say "Out of the Loop"... or "Bob."
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
I'm sorry for flailing nerves, and if anything I said seemed personal, but I was acting in the best interests of the community, at least IMO. I would have said it again to anyone who pulled the same stunt, so I'm not singling anyone out.
Most. Backhanded. Apology. Ever.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 26, 2009, 07:37:59 PM
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
I'm sorry for flailing nerves, and if anything I said seemed personal, but I was acting in the best interests of the community, at least IMO. I would have said it again to anyone who pulled the same stunt, so I'm not singling anyone out.
Most. Backhanded. Apology. Ever.
:banghead:
let it go
IPS, I think the avatar is fine now. If others are offended by it, they can chime in.
I'd get the psd, but I wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. And, no, I'm not asking anyone to make me anything.
Hopefully we can let this drop for the time being.
Quote from: Previsionary on January 26, 2009, 02:25:38 AM
Quote from: ips on January 26, 2009, 12:58:21 AM
anyone ever use it?
Syn (or HQ) vs. Vlad. I'm pretty sure it was used once for them. Hrm.
*attempts to not step in any of the active mine fields in this thread*
Re: Thunderdome
You're close, Prev.....the only time I remember seeing it used was Syn vs. Monkey-boy (I don't feel like hurting my brain remembering his exact nick, but most of us should remember), I think over the whole "Eat a bowl of........" issue. Syn was the clear winner.
Quote from: Vertex on January 26, 2009, 07:31:21 PM
You heard the man.. so please feel fee to send me bowls of shrimp gumbo, chili, or fried chicken.. dang it my wife doesn't cook any of this stuff and I've been married 8 years!!! I need food!
Well, I'll pitch in my Mom's Famous Fried Chicken. I'll tell you what - one-half of my Mom's chicken for every Vertex mesh released. :P
NOTE: Payment will be in KFC gift certificates since my Mom isn't talking to me after I sold her recipe to the Colonel.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 08:33:43 PM
Quote from: Vertex on January 26, 2009, 07:31:21 PM
You heard the man.. so please feel fee to send me bowls of shrimp gumbo, chili, or fried chicken.. dang it my wife doesn't cook any of this stuff and I've been married 8 years!!! I need food!
Well, I'll pitch in my Mom's Famous Fried Chicken. I'll tell you what - one-half of my Mom's chicken for every Vertex mesh released. :P
NOTE: Payment will be in KFC gift certificates since the Colonel stole her recipe.
For the record people..
I HAVE THIS IN WRITING!!!
I'm gonna get fed.. prepare for a colossal flood of meshes.. I'm gonna be a big fat mesher soon.
It's become pretty clear that this forum lacks direction and unity. So I, murs47, man of men, will lead us to utopia. Name your children after me and send me all your custom creations for approval. We don't need rules, what we need are my narrow minded opinions dictating the progress of the community.
CRISIS - OF INIFINITE POSTS
Quote from: President Raygun on January 26, 2009, 08:58:36 PM
CRISIS - OF INIFINITE POSTS
HAH! That made me laugh out loud at work. Now customers are looking at me weird...
JUST WANNA HELP LIGHTEN THE MOOD A BIT
That's cool, Murs. Can I be Bob, Agent of Hydra?
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on January 26, 2009, 09:03:37 PM
That's cool, Murs. Can I be Bob, Agent of Hydra?
No, only Bob can be Bob. This kind of insubordination is unneeded here at FR. You are now banned.
Let that be a lesson to all of you.
So our only choices are a dictatorship or chaos? What about communism?
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 26, 2009, 09:22:53 PM
So our only choices are a dictatorship or chaos? What about communism?
There are no choices in a dictatorship. Banned.
o king of kings, master murs. ban me too! ban me too! :D
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 26, 2009, 10:08:41 PM
o king of kings, master murs. ban me too! ban me too! :D
No! I do what I want, not what you want. Temporary suspension for you.
Hello, I am new here. My name is nretnal_w0lley.
Let me show some pics of some sweet meshes made by a friend of mine.
I say we go with Murs' dictatorship. It seems like an effective and fair way to run the community. To that end I'd like offer my services to Murs as his right hand man.
*secretly plots Murs death and utter destruction of FR*
Seriously, I'd go for anarchy at this point.
It doesn't matter.
If a complete unknown came along and bundled up some existing skins and published it as their own work and called it a mod, it wouldn't matter. The only people who care or who's opinions matter are here and can be informed otherwise.
We're talking about a dying game in a debatably dying genre, and anything even half decent that keeps this community ticking is a good thing.
The fact that one of our established members has withdrawn his work from publication should be ringing alarm bells about being too precious with this kind of thing.
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on January 27, 2009, 02:42:20 AM
Hello, I am new here. My name is nretnal_w0lley.
Let me show some pics of some sweet meshes made by a friend of mine.
You have my approval Mr. Wolley. Now be gone with you.
Quote from: Podmark on January 27, 2009, 04:24:46 AM
I say we go with Murs' dictatorship. It seems like an effective and fair way to run the community. To that end I'd like offer my services to Murs as his right hand man.
*secretly plots Murs death and utter destruction of FR*
Sorry Pod, but I suffer from a disease known as immortality.
*hits Podmark with banhammer*
First of all Murs, you're killing me, lol. Second of all, I'm disappointed with this whole thing, I would love to be able to download a package like that, there's so much content available for this game, one doesn't even know to begin searching and downloading all of it, let alone installing all of it piece by piece. I assume each char folder had a note saying who created what, so if anyone was curious to know they could easily find it, but this package was really a great service to the community, and one greatly appreciated by at least a few of us who are fans of all you, the great modders of this awesome game.
Anyways, who am I, but someone who missed an opportunity to get this mod with all its extra content before it was pulled.
OT. :huh:
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 05:30:48 AM
dr mike,
bg cancelled his mod. and i've pulled my content from my site. so i suppose your comments could refer to either of us.
either way... that issue was over when bg cancelled his mod. in 30 days we agreed to discuss forum policy to keep everyone on the up and informed. it sounds like you've got an opinion so you should look for the thread. in the mean time let's please not discuss it further.
Please stop.
You can keep telling us it's "closed" or "that issue was over" as much as you like, IPS.
It isn't.
It really, really, isn't.
Benton's Mod WILL be discussed. Now, or in a month's time.
If you continue to post on the matter in this way, telling us again and again its "over", I will reply each and every time to inform you that it isn't. Cooling off period be damned.
Because saying it's "over" IS discussing it.
So please, either we stop posting on it, as we agreed, or we go again, starting now.
I leave the choice to you.
So what's it to be?
A month, or today.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 05:30:48 AM
dr mike,
bg cancelled his mod. and i've pulled my content from my site. so i suppose your comments could refer to either of us.
either way... that issue was over when bg cancelled his mod. in 30 days we agreed to discuss forum policy to keep everyone on the up and informed. it sounds like you've got an opinion so you should look for the thread. in the mean time let's please not discuss it further.
Come on, IPS.
Four or so people have agreed in this thread to say nothing more on the subject until a month from now. That isn't really enough to deny me my first post on the matter. I'm not intending to argue this till I'm blue in the face, or endlessly repeat myself, just post my initial reaction.
You really think it will take a month for everyone to calm down and be able to discuss this reasonably?
And to clarify, I was referring to Benton withdrawing his mod.
Quote from: Vertex on January 26, 2009, 08:38:25 PM
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 26, 2009, 08:33:43 PM
Quote from: Vertex on January 26, 2009, 07:31:21 PM
You heard the man.. so please feel fee to send me bowls of shrimp gumbo, chili, or fried chicken.. dang it my wife doesn't cook any of this stuff and I've been married 8 years!!! I need food!
Well, I'll pitch in my Mom's Famous Fried Chicken. I'll tell you what - one-half of my Mom's chicken for every Vertex mesh released. :P
NOTE: Payment will be in KFC gift certificates since the Colonel stole her recipe.
For the record people..
I HAVE THIS IN WRITING!!!
I'm gonna get fed.. prepare for a colossal flood of meshes.. I'm gonna be a big fat mesher soon.
Oh... wait... wait. I.. ummm... didn't really mean that. I was... ummm.... trying to prove I had a sense of humor. Yeah, that's it. :lol:
Back to topic. I have two mod rule suggestions:
Suggested Mod Rule #1
When a content creator states (whether in a thread, in a readme file or other such medium) that their content can be used freely as long as credit is given, then the content creator should understand, that by stating such, that new ideas may be used to release, publish or use their content in other ways that they might not foresee. And that the creator of the content can't go back and tell the mod creator that they can't use their content that way. If the content creator wants to be notified before using their content in a mod, then that should be stated in the thread, readme, or whatever. That way modders won't release any "suprises" that contain other content creators material.
Suggested Mod Rule #2
Let content creators speak for themselves and only for themselves and their creations. If a content creator's content is in a mod and they have no problems with their content being in the mod, then there's no reason for you to argue on behalf others who might have an issue. If a content creator has an issue then they should speak only for their own content and not about others who might or might not have an issue with their content being in the mod. Content creators and the modder work it out privately between themselves and only themselves.
So what say you all?
Yay or Nay?
(Yes, while you weren't looking, the Yanks have arrived, overthrew the Murs Dictatorship, and applied their Democracy)
I'd like to make another suggestion. It's not a rule suggestion, but more of a general suggestion for the rules themselves. Once TommyBoy starts a cleaner thread next month, I think it would be nice to include a link to the thread containing the content creators permissions.
duuuuuuuuuude let it go till it's agreed to open the discussion again. :doh:
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:31:41 PM
we agreed to discuss forum policies in 30 days. not benton's mod.
if you want to discuss bentons mod let's do it now. i personally don't want to wait 30 days for an argument if it's really just a ploy to discuss benton's mod.
And we are off, then.
Quoteand the mod really probably isn't very dead then? is this also correct?
From what Benton told me the mod is pulled. Period. He may still tinker with it in his spare time and share it with a few friends but it is gone otherwise with no plans that I am aware of to revive it ever. I have other comments, but I will refrain from them until later. I still maintain that giving this some time would be a good thing, especially if we wait until the person in question actually returns, which he said would likely be in a couple of weeks.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:40:22 PM
so we don't need to discuss forum policy then in 30 days... it' all just been a ploy to discuss benton's mod? is this correct? and the mod really probably isn't very dead then? is this also correct? i'm feeling a little mislead if so.
paranoid much? this is why i dont post on a regular basis. delusional, self-righteous, "me" complexes. not every comment has been about this mod or about you. mellow out, calm down. take a breather. stop driving us new content creators away with such negativity.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 03:46:06 PM
Quoteand the mod really probably isn't very dead then? is this also correct?
From what Benton told me the mod is pulled. Period. He may still tinker with it in his spare time and share it with a few friends but it is gone otherwise with no plans that I am aware of to revive it ever. I have other comments, but I will refrain from them until later. I still maintain that giving this some time would be a good thing, especially if we wait until the person in question actually returns, which he said would likely be in a couple of weeks.
Urgh. I still don't understand why he "canceled" the mod, especially if he is still working on it (is is really canceled than or is it like why people are over dramatic and claim they are leaving but then lurk?). Either way, I don't think he should canceled his mod. That was never my intention, I thought maybe he should hold off on some of the content he packaged until he actually used (if he ever was going too).
I just want everyone to know "...you have destroy my flower-like (skinning) life, not once but twice".
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:55:18 PM
i've heard from several people now, that that is the case. but thanks for calling me paranoid.
I have no idea why it is ok to call you names.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:55:18 PM
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 27, 2009, 03:50:02 PM
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:40:22 PM
so we don't need to discuss forum policy then in 30 days... it' all just been a ploy to discuss benton's mod? is this correct? and the mod really probably isn't very dead then? is this also correct? i'm feeling a little mislead if so.
paranoid much? this is why i dont post on a regular basis. delusional, self-righteous, "me" complexes. not every comment has been about this mod or about you. mellow out, calm down. take a breather. stop driving us new content creators away with such negativity.
i've heard from several people now, that that is the case. but thanks for calling me paranoid.
nothing personal.
nope, nothing personal. just going by what i've read in the various threads.
Please respond to my Poll on Benton's Mod if this subject interests you.
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 27, 2009, 04:00:15 PM
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:55:18 PM
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 27, 2009, 03:50:02 PM
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:40:22 PM
so we don't need to discuss forum policy then in 30 days... it' all just been a ploy to discuss benton's mod? is this correct? and the mod really probably isn't very dead then? is this also correct? i'm feeling a little mislead if so.
paranoid much? this is why i dont post on a regular basis. delusional, self-righteous, "me" complexes. not every comment has been about this mod or about you. mellow out, calm down. take a breather. stop driving us new content creators away with such negativity.
i've heard from several people now, that that is the case. but thanks for calling me paranoid.
nothing personal.
Really? You sound like TMX yesterday calling me an elitist. If you guys don't think the name calling is personal, you really should check your self in the mirror.
QuoteEither way, I don't think he should canceled his mod. That was never my intention, I thought maybe he should hold off on some of the content he packaged until he actually used (if he ever was going too).
He's stated that this will never happen.
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 27, 2009, 04:05:22 PM
nope, nothing personal. just going by what i've read in the various threads.
Wow, it's funny. When content creators are giving you things, they are the "best" and "I love you man" the moment they say something you don't like they are "paranoid", "self-righteous", and "elitist". I will personally keep all these notes in mind for any time in the future I start to skin or skope anything.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 04:12:37 PM
QuoteEither way, I don't think he should canceled his mod. That was never my intention, I thought maybe he should hold off on some of the content he packaged until he actually used (if he ever was going too).
He's stated that this will never happen.
But why? If you know it will shut up people and it will make this community go back to some form of normal why not do it? Isn't that doing the right thing rather than holding out and refusing to release your hardwork as anything other than what you want?
Because doing so would be, at least to him, surrendering and letting the other side have it's way, a side which he believes is wrong. Besides, his DCU would essentially be dead, because the campaigns were just a bonus to him, the real mod was the entire DC universe converted to FF format, so that release would not be his mod at all.
Now that is not the approach I would take. My approach would be to keep the original up but add the streamlined only what's used in a mod version for those who didn't want the sandbox or who wanted a lighter download. But Benton is not me.
Quotenope, nothing personal. just going by what i've read in the various threads.
When you call somebody names like "paranoid" it is always personal, especially when you do it based solely on guesses and assumptions. IPS had good reason to wonder these things, although they are baseless rumors and guesses are far as I know, but he has no way of knowing one way or the other.
take what i've said however you want. personally, i have never commented in your skins thread, or ips's. i have never claimed that anyone is great, or that anyone is not. my opinion's are only based on what i've read in various threads throughout the forum. but that's all they are, opinions. no one needs to listen to them or take them seriously. i have no real issues against anyone.
that being said, i have not downloaded much community content. i mostly customize the irrational content which came with the game. i have chosen not to release what i have tinkered with strictly because there has never seemed to be a real interest in what i have. this way, no one can compare what i have done with others work. this way, i dont have to worry about my skins being used in a way i dont like. i stay happy, no one gets hurt feelings.
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 27, 2009, 04:33:26 PM
take what i've said however you want. personally, i have never commented in your skins thread, or ips's. i have never claimed that anyone is great, or that anyone is not. my opinion's are only based on what i've read in various threads throughout the forum. but that's all they are, opinions. no one needs to listen to them or take them seriously. i have no real issues against anyone.
that being said, i have not downloaded much community content. i mostly customize the irrational content which came with the game. i have chosen not to release what i have tinkered with strictly because there has never seemed to be a real interest in what i have. this way, no one can compare what i have done with others work. this way, i dont have to worry about my skins being used in a way i dont like. i stay happy, no one gets hurt feelings.
I consider that a crying shame (your not releasing your work) Yes I make stuff now and have for quite some time, but I remember what it was like when I couldn't. I hate to know people are out there making stuff and not releasing it for the rest of us to enjoy (god that sounds kinda selfish in a weird sort of way but :P)
Quotethis way, i dont have to worry about my skins being used in a way i dont like. i stay happy, no one gets hurt feelings.
Except when you appear solely, it seems, to call people names. You have yet to apologize for this, and it doesn't matter whether you name calling is based on your observations or not.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 04:40:44 PM
Quotethis way, i dont have to worry about my skins being used in a way i dont like. i stay happy, no one gets hurt feelings.
Except when you appear solely, it seems, to call people names. You have yet to apologize for this, and it doesn't matter whether you name calling is based on your observations or not.
i will apologize, if nothing more, than to reiterate the fact that i have no personal issues against anyone.
Quote from: Vertex on January 27, 2009, 04:39:48 PM
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 27, 2009, 04:33:26 PM
take what i've said however you want. personally, i have never commented in your skins thread, or ips's. i have never claimed that anyone is great, or that anyone is not. my opinion's are only based on what i've read in various threads throughout the forum. but that's all they are, opinions. no one needs to listen to them or take them seriously. i have no real issues against anyone.
that being said, i have not downloaded much community content. i mostly customize the irrational content which came with the game. i have chosen not to release what i have tinkered with strictly because there has never seemed to be a real interest in what i have. this way, no one can compare what i have done with others work. this way, i dont have to worry about my skins being used in a way i dont like. i stay happy, no one gets hurt feelings.
I consider that a crying shame (your not releasing your work) Yes I make stuff now and have for quite some time, but I remember what it was like when I couldn't. I hate to know people are out there making stuff and not releasing it for the rest of us to enjoy (god that sounds kinda selfish in a weird sort of way but :P)
the skins that i have made are only for irrational meshes. and by no means are they of the same quality as other members of the boards. had i ever thought that there was a demand, i would have released them. but after current debates, it wont happen.
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 27, 2009, 04:33:26 PM
take what i've said however you want. personally, i have never commented in your skins thread, or ips's. i have never claimed that anyone is great, or that anyone is not. my opinion's are only based on what i've read in various threads throughout the forum. but that's all they are, opinions. no one needs to listen to them or take them seriously. i have no real issues against anyone.
that being said, i have not downloaded much community content. i mostly customize the irrational content which came with the game. i have chosen not to release what i have tinkered with strictly because there has never seemed to be a real interest in what i have. this way, no one can compare what i have done with others work. this way, i dont have to worry about my skins being used in a way i dont like. i stay happy, no one gets hurt feelings.
I never claimed you did. I said people. If anything my comments are a generalization of how people thank you one minute and calling you names the next around these parts.
Also if you have never released and you don't download, why are you lurking and commenting on topics that are purely about content creators who are active? Maybe you should stop trolling and go sit down somewhere.
Quote from: H0UR_MAN on January 27, 2009, 04:46:05 PM
i will apologize, if nothing more, than to reiterate the fact that i have no personal issues against anyone.
You can honestly keep your half-arse apology.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 03:31:41 PM
we agreed to discuss forum policies in 30 days. not benton's mod.
Who is included in this "we"? And where did I mention anything about Bent's mod in my suggested rules? There's already people posting about what the rules are for releasing mods. I'm merely trying to get the ball rolling. I never said I'd hold off for 30 days. And, according to AA, since I'm a content creator, I have the right to speak about this whenever I want.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 04:51:27 PM
"we" being everyone in this thread. including you and tommy. if you didn't agree then you would have said you didn't agree and kept posting. i would think this was understood.
I would have thought that me posting would have been easily understood that I'm not in agreement with holding off the discussion.
What isn't easily understood are the ones that say they want to hold off, keep coming into this thread and posting.
Why can't we be friends
I seen ya around for a long long time
I really remember you when you drank my wine
Why can't we be friends
I'd seen ya walkin' down in Chinatown
I called ya but you could not look around
Why can't we be friends
I pay my money to the welfare line
I see ya standing in it every time
Why can't we be friends
The color of your skin don't matter to me
As long as we can live in harmony
Why can't we be friends
I'd kinda' like to be the president
So I could show you how your money's spent
Why can't we be friends
Sometimes I don't speak right
But yet I know what I'm talking about
Why can't we be friends
I know you're working for the CIA
They wouldn't have you in the mafia
Why can't we be friends
This may be elitist but whatever this is what I sent to TMX.
If anyone has a say in a community that exist because of content creators, what leverage do we have as actual contributors to this community? We keep this community relevant so if someone who mostly post in the request forum has just as much say as me why should I bother contributing? Where the value prop? Also how are freeloaders and other noobs telling us how our work should be distributed? This isn't a fight about ideas, it's about content. Noobs can post whatever they want but I don't think they have the authority to start a topic especially when I know their motives are purely in their own interest.
If I'm being snarky again, chalk it up to me being "elitist".
Also what is 30 days going to do besides drag this thing out? We keep saying we are going to wait but for what?
The way I think of it, everyone has a right to speak, but everyone does not have a right to be listened.
In addition, having a right to do something is not the same thing as it being right for you to do so.
The OP may have had to right to call for rules on mod even though he created nothing, but it was not right for him to do so.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 04:59:55 PM
that would be people wanting to argue still and not discuss things.
go ahead if you'd like to discuss the issues still, why haven't you posted any of your concerns. all i'm seeing is "we still want to argue" posts.
Once you changed your Avatar I stopped arguing. I then started acting a little silly. But then I got serious and posted my suggested rules. I wasn't arguing when I posted the rules, what made you think that?
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 05:08:01 PM
The OP may have had to right to call for rules on mod even though he created nothing, but it was not right for him to do so.
Which is why I told AA, that all that needed to be done was to ignore the thread in the first place instead of posting snarky comments.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 27, 2009, 05:10:42 PM
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 05:08:01 PM
The OP may have had to right to call for rules on mod even though he created nothing, but it was not right for him to do so.
Which is why I told AA, that all that needed to be done was to ignore the thread in the first place instead of posting snarky comments.
I'll let cat handle this one for me.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 05:08:01 PM
The way I think of it, everyone has a right to speak, but everyone does not have a right to be listened.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 05:12:27 PM
great. so i'll reply in 30 days to discussion pertinent posts if i feel inclined. and everyone else can do as they please. i personally want the break.
Yeah, seriously.
I'm really starting to feel neglected here :(
Can't we all agree that I'mtrying to take over the world?
Did I say talk? I don't think so. Creators create....so do it!
*assembles guillotine*
Now!
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 05:08:01 PM
The OP may have had to right to call for rules on mod even though he created nothing, but it was not right for him to do so.
He has a right but it was not right... I'm sorry, I just can't wrap my head around this. For purposes of clarification, at what point does a community member have both the right to speak their mind on an issue and it is also right for him or her to do so?
That is matter for good common sense and partly a matter of opinion. Demanding that other people do something that he is not involved in does seem to me not a good thing to do.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 07:01:37 PM
That is matter for good common sense and partly a matter of opinion. Demanding that other people do something that he is not involved in does seem to me not a good thing to do.
Cat,
While I think that your response is reasonable both in terms of analytical and emotional content, I think the issue here is that there are differing opinions, resulting from differing frames of reference, suggesting that the notions that are held in common, i.e. common sense, are, unfortunately, limited in number. I believe that while "common sense" is an ideal worth striving for, I do not believe that it develops either spontaneously or organically. I think it is negotiated through the airing of differing opinions and trying to reach a working accord (not necessarilly, but sometimes, a formal agreement) on how to proceed in the future.
Quote from: doctorchallenger on January 27, 2009, 07:20:33 PM
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 07:01:37 PM
That is matter for good common sense and partly a matter of opinion. Demanding that other people do something that he is not involved in does seem to me not a good thing to do.
Cat,
While I think that your response is reasonable both in terms of analytical and emotional content, I think the issue here is that there are differing opinions, resulting from differing frames of reference, suggesting that the notions that are held in common, i.e. common sense, are, unfortunately, limited in number. I believe that while "common sense" is an ideal worth striving for, I do not believe that it develops either spontaneously or organically. I think it is negotiated through the airing of differing opinions and trying to reach a working accord (not necessarilly, but sometimes, a formal agreement) on how to proceed in the future.
Quite so. The problem is that here, most of what has been going on is not airing a different opinion as much as it is character attacks and insults. If someone who doesn't contribute much artistically to the community has some insight to offer, by all means, please share. The problem is when someone who is unrelated to the issue steps up to make a judgement call. That is most assuredly never the right thing to do. Heck, it's wrong for people who are involved in the whole thing to make it personal and judgemental.
Quote from: ips on January 27, 2009, 07:51:21 PM
the problem with inviting someone in that has no background, is that they lack the knowledge to create not just an opinion, but an informed one.
and
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 27, 2009, 07:01:37 PM
Demanding that other people do something that he is not involved in does seem to me not a good thing to do.
how does that account for decisions made by entire bodies of people that are not involved directly in the issues. civil and human rights decisions for example.
that mentality is a complete fallacy. we are all connected. decisions made, may appear specific and on a small scale but can and usually do have larger implications for the larger whole, admit it or not. that is the problem here - not everyone understands that.
I while I agee with your closing statement - we are all connected and a small events, regardless of intend, do not have simple, limited effects, but create and sustain larger, lasting patterns of action - I am troubled by your opening statement. The inference (for lack of a better word) is that people are uninformed - that is the implication of "no background." I would suggest that they are differently informed, as unwieldy as that term sounds. As such, they are drawing their opinion from a different set of experiences and a different set of sensiblities, thus reaching different conclusions. To say that one has no background invalidates the experience of that person, thus depriving them of their right to express their opinion.
Again I will state I do not speak for anyone else besides myself (though people keep putting me and IPS as a team when the truth is we have different opinions on the matter but I guess that irrelevant when everyone thinks you are both wrong even if it is in different ways) and while I think my opinion should matter in redistributing of content through this forum because I have been active for many years and given so freely to everyone here regardless of receiving, if my opinion is not the same as the "group" I don't think I should be verbally assassinated because of how I feel (which I have been multiple times in the last two days).
You know what? If I was someone first coming to this community, with the intention of making some content and I came across this thread, I'd be thinking to myself, "I think I'll give this place a wide birth"
How anyone expects this community to survive much less increase is beyond me.
These type of threads with heavy discussions of politics are going to scare people away. Anyone who wishes to do anything mod related will take the attitude of "stuff it, it isn't worth the agro!"
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 09:20:28 PM
Again I will state I do not speak for anyone else besides myself...
Good. That's all any of us expect you to do.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 09:20:28 PM(though people keep putting me and IPS as a team when the truth is we have different opinions on the matter but I guess that irrelevant when everyone thinks you are both wrong even if it is in different ways)
So, stop speaking for IPS and get on with speaking for yourself. When you defend IPS but then say your views are different, that's very confusing.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 09:20:28 PMand while I think my opinion should matter in redistributing of content through this forum because I have been active for many years and given so freely to everyone here regardless of receiving,
No. Your opinion only matters when it comes to redistributing
YOUR content through these forums. Your years of giving freely to the community does not make your opinion count as anything when it comes to redistributing my or any other content creators' creations.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 28, 2009, 02:44:06 AM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 09:20:28 PM
Again I will state I do not speak for anyone else besides myself...
Good. That's all any of us expect you to do.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 09:20:28 PM(though people keep putting me and IPS as a team when the truth is we have different opinions on the matter but I guess that irrelevant when everyone thinks you are both wrong even if it is in different ways)
So, stop speaking for IPS and get on with speaking for yourself. When you defend IPS but then say your views are different, that's very confusing.
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 27, 2009, 09:20:28 PMand while I think my opinion should matter in redistributing of content through this forum because I have been active for many years and given so freely to everyone here regardless of receiving,
No. Your opinion only matters when it comes to redistributing YOUR content through these forums. Your years of giving freely to the community does not make your opinion count as anything when it comes to redistributing my or any other content creators' creations.
If you have something to say to me, why not in private? I sent you several messages in private but you choose to reply to these in public? Why? You want to show that can bait people into a fight? Or that you don't understand I can disagree with a friend's position but I can still defend him? Either way, this is all uncalled for because I was stating my stance since people keep telling me where I stand on this matter without reading what I typed. So you and anyone else who has something to say to me, please feel free to use the pm button. These public argument are just making this whole community worse but maybe that is another part of "greater good" of the community I just don't understand.
Whoah! Who's baiting? I read everything you've typed lately. I'm allowed to respond to it.
And if you want the truth to be known, yes, you did send me several PMs, most of which I replied too. Then you told me not to PM you anymore, then sent me offensive PMs after telling me that, and then blocked me from replying back via PM. How childish is that?
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 28, 2009, 04:38:37 AM
Whoah! Who's baiting? I read everything you've typed lately. I'm allowed to respond to it.
And if you want the truth to be known, yes, you did send me several PMs, most of which I replied too. Then you told me not to PM you anymore, then sent me offensive PMs after telling me that, and then blocked me from replying back via PM. How childish is that?
My pms were no more offensive or personal then the ones you sent. It is funny that you actually forgot to mention that I sent you one right after doing this (at the time I was beyond annoyed and hurt) apologizing and sticking out a olive branch only to have it smacked away. I'm done with talking to you in public,TMX. We obviously do not like each other and if you wish to continue to fight then at least have enough respect to pm me so other don't have to read this internet garbage.
OK, time out for you two.
You aren't communicating successfully.
You just disagree.You don't hate each other.
Please strive to agree to disagree for a little while, and perhaps swap partners with someone else in the argument waltz.
Please.
Odd for me to ask because I probably havent been terribly helpful myself.
Quote from: tommyboy on January 28, 2009, 04:46:42 AM
OK, time out for you two.
You aren't communicating successfully.
You just disagree.You don't hate each other.
Please strive to agree to disagree for a little while, and perhaps swap partners with someone else in the argument waltz.
Please.
Odd for me to ask because I probably havent been terribly helpful myself.
okay .. umm tommy is it our turn now? everybody seems to be taking one.. if so.... here's my first go.
you mesh with purple crayons!
Quote from: Vertex on January 28, 2009, 04:48:45 AM
Quote from: tommyboy on January 28, 2009, 04:46:42 AM
OK, time out for you two.
You aren't communicating successfully.
You just disagree.You don't hate each other.
Please strive to agree to disagree for a little while, and perhaps swap partners with someone else in the argument waltz.
Please.
Odd for me to ask because I probably havent been terribly helpful myself.
okay .. umm tommy is it our turn now? everybody seems to be taking one.. if so.... here's my first go.
you mesh with purple crayons!
Umm... you changed your name!
No, that was lame..
Sorry, I'm all hated out for today.
Catch me tomorrow before my first cup of coffee, and I'm sure I'll be my normal argumentative, sarcastic abrasive opinionated self.
I'll bring the purple crayons...
Quote from: tommyboy on January 28, 2009, 04:53:18 AM
Quote from: Vertex on January 28, 2009, 04:48:45 AM
Quote from: tommyboy on January 28, 2009, 04:46:42 AM
OK, time out for you two.
You aren't communicating successfully.
You just disagree.You don't hate each other.
Please strive to agree to disagree for a little while, and perhaps swap partners with someone else in the argument waltz.
Please.
Odd for me to ask because I probably havent been terribly helpful myself.
okay .. umm tommy is it our turn now? everybody seems to be taking one.. if so.... here's my first go.
you mesh with purple crayons!
Umm... you changed your name!
No, that was lame..
Sorry, I'm all hated out for today.
Catch me tomorrow before my first cup of coffee, and I'm sure I'll be my normal argumentative, sarcastic abrasive opinionated self.
I'll bring the purple crayons...
This has been a test of the "have you managed to keep your sense of humor emergency signal. In the case of an actual loss of humor your brain would have exploded." thankfully you have passed. Wasn't sure you could after all that dreck.
This thread = :rolleyes:
For such clever, creative guys, the lack of communication skills around here recently is amazing.
I know petty childishness is part and parcel with internet forums, but I never thought I'd see all the squabbling, condescending, and name-calling here.
It's pretty obvious that people are just arguing for the sake of it at this point. Benton has left, I doubt anyone else is planning a mod after this poor reaction, so why are people still arguing? Boredom?
Hopefully a moderator will start cracking down on some of these pointlessly argumentitive posts before people just start leaving the forum and not coming back. :(
Just popping in to say that I withdraw my statements about having a right vs. it not being right and so forth. I believe that line of reasoning was wrong.
Nevertheless it is unfortunate that a passerby unwisely chose to reopen an argument after we had gained some peace.
Just for the record, Benton isn't gone, and hopefully the community can start to heal. Let bygones be bygones guys.
For those who don't know, Benton and ips have come to an agreement, all parties are satisfied, so the argument is over.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 28, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
For those who don't know, Benton and ips have come to an agreement, all parties are satisfied, so the argument is over.
Seriously? I think that just made my internet day (it is still a long day)!
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 28, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
For those who don't know, Benton and ips have come to an agreement, all parties are satisfied, so the argument is over.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/08/06/nyregion/06kiss.2_span.jpg)
Haha, great TUE, I think that sums it up rather nicely!
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 28, 2009, 10:53:19 PM
Haha, great TUE, I think that sums it up rather nicely!
You only say that because you think you look good in tights. ;)
Who could?
That's it, now I
do hate you all, and I
am leaving the community forever!
Spoiler
*Note, this is in no way true, just so we're clear.
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 29, 2009, 01:20:51 AM
That's it, now I do hate you all, and I am leaving the community forever!
:o
Quote
Spoiler
*Note, this is in no way true, just so we're clear.
:D
Well things do seem to have cooled down considerably today. I haven't seen much in the way of personal attacks and aggressive posting compared to earlier. So this is great news and I hope we can put this ugliness behind us.
Quote from: ips on January 29, 2009, 05:39:26 AM
who are you calling ugly?!
We all know that everyone in the...adult entertainment industry is extremely attractive. I doubt you have much to worry about. =p
Quote from: Gremlin on January 29, 2009, 06:31:29 AM
We all know that everyone in the...adult entertainment industry is extremely attractive. I doubt you have much to worry about. =p
Ron Jeremy :blink:
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on January 28, 2009, 10:42:50 PM
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 28, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
For those who don't know, Benton and ips have come to an agreement, all parties are satisfied, so the argument is over.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/08/06/nyregion/06kiss.2_span.jpg)
Off Topic---Why don't the nurses dress like that anymore? :banghead: I would be happy to stay in the hospital then. What a sad time we live in.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 28, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
For those who don't know, Benton and ips have come to an agreement, all parties are satisfied, so the argument is over.
That's excellent news. I'm extremely happy for BG that he'll be able to release his mod. But, after finding out that the agreement was that BG add Missions to the Mod which use the extra content, which is what the people who spoke out against his mod wanted in the first place,(and it's the same choice in TommyBoy's Poll that only got 5% of the vote, while 85% of the vote (counting the "precedent" and the "it breaks no rule" choices) said it was okay to release it as is), so personally, I feel that all my energy and time to defend the DCUG as it was, and to defend content creators rights have all been a waste.
So, if the DCUG is just going to be released per the wishes of those that spoke out against it, then why did we have to go through days of agony arguing about it?
BG requested Polls. Well the two polls (AA's and TB's) have shown clearly what the majority thinks. And my Monopoly thread also shows that no one is concerned about a monopoly. So it would seem that the majority of the community is being ignored - another thing that is bothering me.
Quote from: BentonGreyWell, here we are again. IPS, I'm afraid that I really can't say much more than I already have. I appreciate the well considered way that you have presented your argument, and I certainly don't want to disregard it out of hand. I also appreciate that you played the mod before coming to a conclusion, and that you acknowledge what this has been and continues to be for me. I will try and make my case again, and then I'm going to make a request about how this be addressed in the future.
This is BG's opening response to IPS in the DCUG thread. In the last sentence he makes a request for how this will be addressed in the future. Many others have also requested that rules be documented to prevent this issue from occurring again. Well, everyone keeps saying that the discussion is over and to move on, but I still haven't seen any specific rules. What are the rules? IMO, this has reached the point, if not past the point, where an Admin should tell us what the rule is for this situation, so this issue can finally be put to rest.
Quote from: TaskMasterX on January 29, 2009, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 28, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
For those who don't know, Benton and ips have come to an agreement, all parties are satisfied, so the argument is over.
That's excellent news. I'm extremely happy for BG that he'll be able to release his mod. But, after finding out that the agreement was that BG add Missions to the Mod which use the extra content, which is what the people who spoke out against his mod wanted in the first place,(and it's the same choice in TommyBoy's Poll that only got 5% of the vote, while 85% of the vote (counting the "precedent" and the "it breaks no rule" choices) said it was okay to release it as is), personally, I feel that all my energy and time to defend the DCUG as it was, and to defend content creators rights have all been a waste.
So, if the DCUG is just going to be released per the wishes of those that spoke out against it, then why did we have to go through days of agony arguing about it?
BG requested Polls. Well the two polls (AA's and TB's) have shown clearly what the majority thinks. And my Monopoly thread also shows that no one is concerned about a monopoly. So it would seem that the majority of the community is being ignored - another thing that is bothering me.
Quote from: BentonGreyWell, here we are again. IPS, I'm afraid that I really can't say much more than I already have. I appreciate the well considered way that you have presented your argument, and I certainly don't want to disregard it out of hand. I also appreciate that you played the mod before coming to a conclusion, and that you acknowledge what this has been and continues to be for me. I will try and make my case again, and then I'm going to make a request about how this be addressed in the future.
This is BG's opening response to IPS in the DCUG thread. In the last sentence he makes a request for how this will be addressed in the future. Many others have also requested that rules be documented to prevent this issue from occurring again. Well, everyone keeps saying that the discussion is over and to move on, but I still haven't seen any specific rules. What are the rules? IMO, this has reached the point, if not past the point, where an Admin should tell us what the rule is for this situation, so this issue can finally be put to rest.
I think that we all wanted to enjoy a bit of peace and normalcy for a day or two.
For one thing, not all the votes are in on the polls. Some only visit infrequently, and even those who do visit may as yet be unaware of the polls, or undecided. I would like to hear from everyone if possible, even if that means it takes a few weeks. So please, be patient. I certainly haven't forgotten the need to have an agreed set of rules where everyone can consult them, nor, I suspect, have many others here.
We do still need to formulate a code or rules, but first need to get an idea of what the community wants, and the individual wishes and needs of the subset that is the creators. Again, that cannot be done overnight.
I don't think that you wasted anything defending the Mod. Or that anyone else did, for that matter.
I understand that the compromise solution on DCUG may not be to everyones taste, that is often the nature of compromise.
Bear in mind that Benton's original plans for the Mod included other creators and himself adding extra campaigns or missions, so I for one feel nothing has been lost, only some stuff added or moved forward. The Mod is to be released, as before, but with extra campaigns and missions not previously in it. I cannot see how anyone should feel robbed of anything by that.
I also fail to see any other way of moving forward, as IPS made it very clear he would not let it go, did not feel bound by my poll of the community. Short of my hunting him down and killing him, we would have just kept arguing, which would likely have kept Benton unwilling to release it, and if not "destroy the community11!" at least make some leave it.
Alternatively, we could have not bothered to defend it, the Mod would not get released and whatever was left of the community in the wake of that could continue under the benevolent protectorship of IPS.
I prefer the compromise.
I think there is merit in continued discussion on the subject of the rules, and thank you for bringing it back up.
But I also think that we should not rush this, and try to get as large and as much of a consensus as we can.
Quote from: tommyboy on January 29, 2009, 04:52:50 PM
I don't think that you wasted anything defending the Mod. Or that anyone else did, for that matter.
I understand that the compromise solution on DCUG may not be to everyones taste, that is often the nature of compromise.
I'm sorry, but I don't see a compromise. What is it the one's against the initial release, gave in on?
Quote from: tommyboy on January 29, 2009, 04:52:50 PMBear in mind that Benton's original plans for the Mod included other creators and himself adding extra campaigns or missions, so I for one feel nothing has been lost, only some stuff added or moved forward. The Mod is to be released, as before, but with extra campaigns and missions not previously in it. I cannot see how anyone should feel robbed of anything by that.
What I meant was a waste was the time and energy spent defending how BG released his mod. Of course he was going to add new campaigns in the future, but shouldn't he deserve to release it how he wanted to initially? And it wasn't just the DCUG's defense I feel wasted on, it's also the issue of content creator's rights.
Quote from: tommyboy on January 29, 2009, 04:52:50 PM
I also fail to see any other way of moving forward, as IPS made it very clear he would not let it go, did not feel bound by my poll of the community. Short of my hunting him down and killing him, we would have just kept arguing, which would likely have kept Benton unwilling to release it, and if not "destroy the community11!" at least make some leave it.
By BG requesting a Poll, I assumed he was going to base his decision on the polls, not the decisions of a select few.
Okay Guys. The mods are getting complaints about some of the post here. If this doesn't stop soon, The mods will be force to lock/ delete this topic. Any questions feel free to email us.
All that I will say about this is that I do believe it is important that was as a community do codify the rules pertaining to situations such as this. I think that most content creators have made their views rather clear on the subject, but given my role as a nexus of the unpleasantness of the last month, I will steer clear of those discussions in large part.