Freedom Reborn

Freedom Force Forums => Mods => Topic started by: BentonGrey on December 31, 2008, 01:49:49 AM

Title: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: BentonGrey on December 31, 2008, 01:49:49 AM
Spoiler
Back!  Again!  Ha, I'm back in town, and back to work on the DCUG.  I've finished MiS#8, but it is very buggy, so while I'm working on that I'll also be trying to finish up the other two campaigns.  I'm hoping to finish up all three of these this week, and then I'll be working on odds and ends until the 10th.

AI Request:
I've actually got a request that I hope someone might help me with.  I have some concerns about the AI in the DCUG.  I've run most of the roster through the AI generator, (and that has improved their performance tenfold) it tends to create strategies that I don't like in characters like Superman and his ilk.  Instead of brawling like you would expect from the big blue, the AI keeps him in the air, using heatvision or superbreath, and generally flitting around wasting time instead of dealing out real damage.  I understand that characters like him obviously need custom AI (the same with shapeshifters, who tend to keep their first shapes), but I don't really have the time to do this myself.  I was wondering if anyone might be willing to adjust the AI for a few of my characters.  I've been looking into it, and it seems to be a fairly straightforward process.  I can provide the AI files that the generator...err...generated, and if someone would be willing to make some minor editing to encourage Superman, Black Adam, Wonder Woman, etc., to keep to the ground and duke it out, and to encourage Giganta to grow when she is facing tough enemies, that would make the final version DCUG a lot more complete.

TO DO:

   * Finish final "Mystery in Space" Mission
   * Test Mystery in Space all the way through
   * Do Base scenes for MiS
   * Fix Base scenes for MiS
   * Edit final mission for Batman
   * Do Base scenes for missions 4 and 7 for Batman
   * Edit Base scene for JLA mission 5
   * Test Batman all the way through
   * Test JLA all the way through
   * Test Base scenes in JLA
    * Add animportrait entries for the characters in JLA
    * Add animportrait entries for the characters in Batman
    * Add animportrait entries for the characters in MiS
   * Get skins for Ray Palmer, Carter Hall, and Barry Allen
   * Fix AI for brawlers/shapshifters
   * Set up comic covers for JLA
   * Set up comic covers for Batman (May not have time)
   * Set up comic covers for MiS (May not have time)
   * Collect comic portraits for the other half of the roster (May not have time)
   * Get voices for Blue Beetle, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, etc. (Probably won't have time)


Completion....99.9%?

If I come across anything else that needs doing, I'll add it

The DCUG will not be released.  Thank you all for your support.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Blitzgott on December 31, 2008, 02:03:39 AM
It's good to know you've come so far.

Looking forward to the final release.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: bearded on December 31, 2008, 03:12:13 AM
drmike gave me an idea for heros or villians you might want to consider.  for powers that heroes are not likely to use, make the cost very high, so they are less likely to use them, only when their gauge is very high.  it seems counter intuitive, but it works.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on December 31, 2008, 04:47:43 AM
I'd be willing to try to make some adjustments, although I won't be able to test them too extensively.  Still, it should be immediately obvious if the behavior is as intended.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on December 31, 2008, 04:58:59 PM
Thanks for the responses guys!  Thanks Blitzgott, I'm really sorta' amazed that I've managed to learn enough to get this far.  Anyway, that's a suggestion that I've heard before Bearded, and it does work, but it also has an effect on the player's experience when controlling those characters.  For example, say I want Superman to only use his heatvision our superbreath once in a while, so I jack up his energy cost.  Then when he is being player controlled, the player won't be able to use those abilities as he might need them.  I have done this for certain abilities, but because of the wonky energy system, I try and avoid it.  I hate that energy system SOOOO much.... :angry: 

Awesome Cat!  Yeah, I really don't think that most of them will need major adjustments.  From the reading I've done about it, apparently they just need to be told to use their punch as their first resort, and their flying punch on flying characters.  I can either send you just the AI files, or we can wait until I release the thing, and you can download the whole shebang. 
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: M25 on December 31, 2008, 06:24:13 PM
Getting the behaviour you want is a bit of an art, but for the flying bricks you can decrease the percentage chance to use their ranged powers or place conditions on their use.

TRanged('heat vision', pct=20),   lowers the chance to use the power, so others are more likely to be used.

TRanged('heat vision', subtype='flying'),  means use heat vision only on flying characters

And of course you can combine options:

TRanged('heat vision, pct=20, subtype='flying'),



For the shapeshifters, you need to decide when each form should be used, since the AI generator can't do that for you.

TShapeshift(subtype='flying', form='hawk'),  means turn into the 'hawk' form if the enemy I'm targeting is flying

TShapeshift(situation='swarmed', form='tank'), means turn into my 'tank' form if I'm being swarmed by enemies.


Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Cyber Burn on December 31, 2008, 11:33:54 PM
   I'm glad to see this almost done. I'm really looking forward to it's release.

"Get skins for Ray Palmer, Carter Hall, and Barry Allen"

I'm assuming you mean their civilian identities? Any specific mesh you want these on? Reference pics?
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on December 31, 2008, 11:50:02 PM
Glad you're looking forward to it CB!  I do mean their secret identities, but I already have someone making them.  It's just a matter of getting the finished product. ^_^
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 01, 2009, 03:10:49 AM
Well IPS, I do think that I have done some balancing along those lines.  You can't just spam GL's most powerful attacks, and, as a matter of fact, in his level of the mod, you have to spend a great deal of time using your cheap attacks to keep your opponents off balance so that you can build up energy to actually hurt them.  It is similar for Superman.  It doesn't cost anything to punch someone, and it does tons of damage.  While heatvision is relatively cheap, you can only do it a few times until you're out of energy, plus, although it does good damage, if you REALLY want to put the hurt on someone, it is better to use the melee combo.  That being said, I am very aware of my own limitations in the way I approach FF2.  I haven't given enough attention to power costs, because the new power system just frustrates me to no end.  I will, of course, be very open to rebalancing in future expansions based on feedback from those who play the DCUG.  I hope that people will find the characters pretty well represented, though.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 01, 2009, 04:46:04 AM
Because they are all meant to be able to be player controlled, I definitely thinking tweaking the AIs is a better solution in this case than playing around with energy costs.  The AI system allows it to be set up the way it needs to without doing that.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: bearded on January 01, 2009, 01:43:15 PM
i would like to present the idea of the big history dcubg.  i've seen a touch of this mod before, and it is wonderful even in beta.  when it is released, i dream of the idea of a tight timeline.  an exact date for each mod made for it.  doesn't the dcubg present itself for this sort of thing?  what do ppl think if this concept?
a start would be an exact date for major events.  birthdates, big issues (killing joke, doomsday, jsa, etc.)
hey, benton, how many worlds are in your mod?  new earth?  golden age?  captain carrot?  earth 2, earth 3, what about new gods, and what about hyperion princess and owlman?
sorry for the exuberance, i've been anticipating this for a long time now.
thank you for all your work bg!!!
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 01, 2009, 05:02:19 PM
Thanks Cat, that was what I was thinking.

Wow Bearded!  I had no clue you were so excited about this!  It certainly makes me feel better about my little project.  Anyway, to answer your questions:  I definitely have a timeline in mind for the mod, but I haven't put dates to it...I suppose the only real reason is that I hate to put an exact year on events, so that I can stretch believability a little.  If things aren't necessarily happening in 1990, or 2008, then maybe it isn't so unreasonable for Wildcat to still be semi-active AND have been active in the 50's.  I may revise that.  However, that doesn't mean that the events of the mod don't exist in very hard and fast temporal relationships to one another.  The first third of Aquaman's campaign will take place BEFORE he joins the League, Batman's takes place long after, etc., etc., and there will be events that tie in to different storylines and mods, when I get to them.  I have copious notes on the matter.  As far as the number of worlds, well, technically only three, but practically four.  I've got the standard, modern day earth with the JLA, etc., I've got the 4th World with the New Gods (although I don't have any stories that involve them directly yet), I've definitely got the antimatter universe and the CSA figure prominently in a few stories, but I've also got crossovers with the JSA.  The catch is that those are time travel stories.  To reduce the complexity of my continuity I've made the JSA strictly a thing of the past, the way it was originally.  They form up just before WWII, and then pretty much all retire in the late fifties thanks to the McCarthy hearings.  There is no Golden Age Hawkman, nor Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman in my mod, and Dr. Fate is either going to be very resistant to aging thanks to his magic, or a product of the modern age.  That cleans up tons of continuity problems, and I can still have crossovers thanks to time travel!  Ha, well, I suppose I had better stop while I'm ahead.  I can talk about this stuff endlessly.  If you want to hear more, just PM me, or drop me a line in the Shack. ^_^
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 03, 2009, 07:43:14 PM
An update and a request today, friends.  First off, I finished writing the last Batman issue last night, so that is awesome!  Now...I'm FAIRLY certain all I have left to do is test, so wish me luck, 'cause I'm sure to find bugs left and right in all three campaigns.  Anyway, the request is for some info.  I need a certain helpless love interest to be inert and out of trouble during a mission.  What I'd LIKE is to just create an object mesh from the character mesh.  I know that I can edit the kf's to have the Fall animation as "Idle," but what else do I need to do for this to work properly?  I'm thinking "Dead Nick" here.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Cyber Burn on January 04, 2009, 09:46:10 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 03, 2009, 07:43:14 PM
An update and a request today, friends.  First off, I finished writing the last Batman issue last night, so that is awesome!  Now...I'm FAIRLY certain all I have left to do is test, so wish me luck, 'cause I'm sure to find bugs left and right in all three campaigns.  Anyway, the request is for some info.  I need a certain helpless love interest to be inert and out of trouble during a mission.  What I'd LIKE is to just create an object mesh from the character mesh.  I know that I can edit the kf's to have the Fall animation as "Idle," but what else do I need to do for this to work properly?  I'm thinking "Dead Nick" here.

   I'd probably throw this into the requests forum or the skopers forum, maybe someone there could figure this out. On the other hand, I'm really stoked about the CSA, I can't tell you enough how much I'm anticipating this.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: yell0w_lantern on January 04, 2009, 06:59:49 PM
Is it a mesh with an available max file? If so, it can be exported as an object in the pose you want.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: detourne_me on January 04, 2009, 08:41:03 PM
IPS has also included the "sleep" animation into a number of his older female_basic keyframe sets if that helps... i think his fire and ice sets had hat animation.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 05, 2009, 02:41:38 AM
Thanks for the responses guys!  The mesh in question is Gni's Female_elf.  I will post in the request section, I suppose.  I really don't know how to accomplish what I want.  Perhaps with a combination of skoping and scripting?
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: yell0w_lantern on January 05, 2009, 03:26:41 AM
female_elf, huh? No max file for that one, unfortunately. Otherwise, all that would have to be done is open up the file in Max, move the time slider to a suitable pose then delete the physique modifier and export as an object.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 07, 2009, 10:47:31 PM
Thanks YL.  I suppose that I've found something that will work.  I've just got to do it. 

On another note, Mystery in Space is now fully tested, and everything works!  Woo-hoo! :thumbup:

On another 'nother note, JLA is now fully tested!  That leaves just one to go, and some odds and ends.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 11, 2009, 06:25:42 AM
So....TECHNICALLY, it looks like I lied about releasing on the 10th, but I am ALMOST done, and I'm going to stay up until I finish it.  So, it will be done tonight, but maybe not until around 4:00A.M.  Not technically the 10th, but I hope y'all will forgive me.  The bugs in the JLA campaign just about beat me.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: kkhohoho on January 11, 2009, 07:23:27 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 11, 2009, 06:25:42 AM
So....TECHNICALLY, it looks like I liked about releasing on the 10th, but I am ALMOST done, and I'm going to stay up until I finish it.  So, it will be done tonight, but maybe not until around 4:00A.M.  Not technically the 10th, but I hope y'all will forgive me.  The bugs in the JLA campaign just about beat me.

*Remembers that Benton said it would be done on January 10th.*

*Remembers that Benton didn't say it would be done on January 10th of this year. :ph34r:*

Thanks for all the hard work you've done on this Benton. I'm (almost :P) sure we all appreciate it. ^_^
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: laughing paradox on January 11, 2009, 07:39:07 AM
Take your time, man! Make sure it's all set right.. can't wait to get my grubby mitts on this mod, though!
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 11, 2009, 07:49:54 AM
ITS A TRAP!!!
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 11, 2009, 09:34:25 AM
Anyone know what files I need to use the simple choice plugin?
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Epimethee on January 11, 2009, 06:12:57 PM
It's installed with FFX 3.2 or later. (Program Files/Irrational Games/Freedom Force vs The 3rd Reich/ffx3true/Missions/Scripts/ffxplugins/active/m25enc_simplechoice
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 11, 2009, 06:29:27 PM
Thanks Ep!  Well....I worked on the darn thing until 6:00 A.M. (I kid you not) and it still isn't done.  I got tired, made mistakes, and then had to fix them.  All I've got to do is add the captions for the campaign and put the thing in an installer, but I'm busy today, so it may take a while.  Sorry guys, but it's coming.
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Gremlin on January 12, 2009, 02:48:36 AM
For shame, Benton. I am sorely disappointed. :angry:

;P
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 12, 2009, 04:01:03 AM
Urrgghh...more errors.  Alright, I'm going to keep working on this, and it will be out sometimes this week.  Other than that, who knows. :angry:

:EDIT: An update, for anyone interested.  NOTHING was working, and I mean nothing.  When I tried to load the mission I'd just added, I got a black screen and I couldn't even get to the desktop.  It was really bad news.  So, I checked the script.log, and had a nasty shock.  The game couldn't find ANY of its resources.  Nothing had a complex attribute, everything was all kinds of crazy.  So, I try and run FFX, and it won't find my mod folder...just won't find it.  I start poking through the folder, wondering what could have happened (and quickly losing my mind), and what should I discover?  At 6:00 in the morning, when I had made a few mistakes, I had made a rather horrific one.  I had tried to trim the fat of the mod, removing anything I didn't need, including excess folders in the missions directory...and I had apparently deleted the Scripts folder.  Now, I could always replace that with the a new one from a fresh FFX3 install, but I'd lose YEARS of work on customizing characters, etc.  Thankfully, I just started using AVG Backup, and after a little fiddling, I was able to restore everything that I needed.  Thank the Lord, 'cause I think I lost about a year off my life!  So, I'm back to work tweaking things, but in much smaller doses.

:EDIT:  Since I'm fighting with a base screen and captions, I've got a little extra time.  How do I go about setting up comic covers for missions in an EZScript campaign?
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 14, 2009, 10:49:46 PM
*Knocks on wood very cautiously*  It's done!  I'm going to give it a few hours to see if anything that I forgot to do pops into my head, but as near as I can tell, the DCUG is well and truly done!  I will start it uploading soon, and I will post again when it is ready for download.  Thank you all for you interest!
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Courtnall6 on January 14, 2009, 10:54:26 PM
Sweet! I'm looking forward to it. :thumbup:
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Previsionary on January 14, 2009, 10:56:43 PM
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 14, 2009, 10:49:46 PM
*Knocks on wood very cautiously*  It's done!  I'm going to give it a few hours to see if anything that I forgot to do pops into my head, but as near as I can tell, the DCUG is well and truly done!  I will start it uploading soon, and I will post again when it is ready for download.  Thank you all for you interest!

COngrats, BG. Now, let's talk about my payment...:P
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: steamteck on January 14, 2009, 11:42:37 PM
Yipeeee!!!
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 15, 2009, 12:26:58 AM
Super Congrats... its been a long time coming.

But now I wonder what will M25 do without his daily "Whats wrong with my cutscene" inquiry?  :)
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 12:42:31 AM
LOL, yeah Goggles, I always feel SOOO bad when I post one of those and M25 takes the time to look at everything, only to say "you forgot a comma."  Ha, he has been an incredibly good sport while I've bumbled about with the unbelievably awesome tool he's given us.

Thanks guys, I'm packing it up now!

:EDIT: We are uploading as I type.  I'm...let's see, five days past my promised release date, but considering the number of bugs I've had, and the rather vicious computer virus I had to deal with, I'm pretty happy with my progress.  When I wake up in the morning I'll post a link, and you'll be able to download my little project.  For the zillions who had problems with the FX pack in the Beta version, you'll be happy to know that everything is 100% integrated.  Well, here's hoping everything goes smoothly while I sleep. (12%)
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Cyber Burn on January 15, 2009, 09:19:27 AM
   This is awesome, I can't wait to get my hands on this. (I will admit though, that I am afraid of the file size, dial-up sucks.)  :banghead:
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 04:23:06 PM
Okay my friends, we are completely uploaded.  Now...I've completely forgotten how I was able to figure out the link for the beta, so here's what I have.  I hope it works.  If not, Cat will have to tell me how to find the webpath. 

http://freedomforceforever.com/dcug/DCUG.zip (Okay, that doesn't work.  Cat...I need your help!)

I do have to say, this things is BIG, and for that I apologize.  I hope that some of you will find it worth the download. :D
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: Previsionary on January 15, 2009, 04:36:41 PM
*sigh* You didn't even bother looking at your old posts...the one in the comprehensive list...that I posted...Benton...get out. :P

dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.zip

That should work. ^_^
Title: Re: DCUG - Counting Down!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 04:42:23 PM
Right you are Prev.!  Ha, sorry, I didn't think that it would help me to look back at that thing.  Well, all is well.  Enjoy the DCUG!  Please post any questions or comments you have here.  I would love to hear your thoughts about my little project. 

dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.zip
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: docdelorean88 on January 15, 2009, 05:18:51 PM
Whenever i open it i get some error message from WinRar. It says unexpected end of zip.Any Ideas?
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: jtharris86 on January 15, 2009, 05:35:11 PM
Quote from: docdelorean88 on January 15, 2009, 05:18:51 PM
Whenever i open it i get some error message from WinRar. It says unexpected end of zip.Any Ideas?

Yeah I get the same message
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 05:37:53 PM
Hmm, it seems to be working fine for me.  Try downloading it again, you may have gotten bad downloads.  Has anyone managed to download it successfully?  If not, maybe I'll have to upload it again. :(
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Previsionary on January 15, 2009, 05:47:46 PM
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 05:37:53 PM
Hmm, it seems to be working fine for me.  Try downloading it again, you may have gotten bad downloads.  Has anyone managed to download it successfully?  If not, maybe I'll have to upload it again. :(

The mod is 800 MB in zipped form. Quite easy to think it's breaking somewhere along the line either in uploading or downloading. TOmmy had this problem as well and his solution was to split his mod up into pieces...might be the way for you to go too.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 05:50:37 PM
Hmm, very possible.  Well, I'll start trying to figure out how to break it up using the installer creator.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 15, 2009, 05:56:51 PM
The bigger the file, the larger the chance the upload will get corrupted along the way.  This is likely what has happened.  In addition, the server I use does not appear to like maintaining a connection for extended periods of times, causing uploads to terminate before completion if they are too large.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 06:04:21 PM
Okey doke, I've started trying to split this thing up.  Can anyone offer me a ballpark size (prezip) that would likely be safe?  I have to decide how many pieces I'm going to use.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 06:27:38 PM
If I break off the custom characters and library folders, pack them up separately, that is 2.6 gigs and 2.2 gigs respectively.  Would that be small enough?  (I'm including Map Pack files for current and future use)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: docdelorean88 on January 15, 2009, 06:41:19 PM
I'm not sure :huh:. I guess theres only one way to find out :)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 15, 2009, 06:49:06 PM
Well if it zipped up at like 800MB, what if you split it into 100MB pieces? I think that's the size they used for the big avengers download.

I know if you use winrar, when you archive it, you can specify how many pieces you want it to be or a size of the pieces and it will automatically break it up.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 15, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Well, I was trying to use the ClickTeam Intaller.  I don't believe that can be done with it, hmm?  Okay, I'm experimenting with splitting the installer program, and I've figured out how to split it, but getting it to combine back together is eluding me.  I'm still working on it.

:EDIT: 7-Zip apparently doesn't support splitting files (despite the fact that there is an option for it in the interface), so I am downloading winrar.

:EDIT2: Okay, I'm baffled, Winrar doesn't seem to have an option for splitting files, and 7-Zip won't let me.  Suggestions?

:EDIT3: Alright, apparently only .rar archives can be split, so I'm converting the DCUG to .rar.  I've got to run errands, but we'll see what happens when I get back.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 15, 2009, 07:24:55 PM
If you have winrar installed:

1. right click on the DCUG folder
2. In the context menu, select "Add to Archive"
3. In the winrar dialogue that comes up, name the archive file whatever you want.
4. Under Archive format choose RAR
5. Below that is a drop down for compression method. Choose "Best" - its slower, but packs it smaller
6. Below that is a drop down for "Split to Volumes, bytes" Choose "98,078k"
7. Click OK

This will then create a series of rar files called <filename>.part1.rar etc... Each one will be 100MB

IF you dont see the conrtext menu above when you right click on your folder, then its not configured to show them, you can do it manually by opening winrar navigating to the DCUG folder, selecting it and then clicking the "Add" button at the top... the same dialogue and instruction from above apply.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Blitzgott on January 15, 2009, 08:40:51 PM
I can't download it from http://dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.zip. I get an error page.

Edit: Nevermind. I just saw the thread in the Releases board.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 15, 2009, 09:05:11 PM
From what I understand it contains like hundreds of meshes, maps, and what not....
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Blitzgott on January 15, 2009, 09:28:56 PM
Quote from: ips on January 15, 2009, 08:48:24 PM
i'm sorry, i'm just gonna ask - why is it so large? this would seem unnecessarily excessive.

That's because it is more of a compilation of DC-based content for :ffvstr: than a mod, although it does have its fair share of original missions.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 15, 2009, 09:39:44 PM
Don't ask me why it has to be so large...

  Back when I was stuck on dial up I never downloaded but one mod.. took me days and days... all because people insisted a mod had to have exclusive meshes and fx and blah blah blah. I always thought it would have been a lot better if when releasing a mod they had just made a list of what was needed and where to get it.. then released.. like. the mod itself... what a thought.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 15, 2009, 10:31:37 PM
While I get the idea that Vertex is saying, would you really want to download his mod and then go through and download 500 meshes from various yahoo groups just to play it? Or download all the new maps seperately and have to go through installing and merging them?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but it seems like some of these comments come across as kind of negative towards the Mod itself. Benton has always said this was going to be a big mod that was full of DC content. That was one of the primary things about it. While it may be too big for some to download, or you may have no interest in downloading, Benton has worked on this for a long time, and it just seems like some of these negative comments about it while hes still in the process of getting it uploaded for people just distract from all the work he (all all the people who helped supply custom content for it) did.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox, now.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 15, 2009, 10:48:33 PM
rumble was released without meshes.  bad form.  it's not only hard or nigh impossible to find all the skins and meshes, you don't always find the ones the author of the mod intended.  so the artistic intent is not as pure.
i got a download corrupted also.  looking forward to the pieces.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 15, 2009, 11:03:23 PM
Quote from: GogglesPizanno on January 15, 2009, 10:31:37 PM
While I get the idea that Vertex is saying, would you really want to download his mod and then go through and download 500 meshes from various yahoo groups just to play it? Or download all the new maps seperately and have to go through installing and merging them?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but it seems like some of these comments come across as kind of negative towards the Mod itself. Benton has always said this was going to be a big mod that was full of DC content. That was one of the primary things about it. While it may be too big for some to download, or you may have no interest in downloading, Benton has worked on this for a long time, and it just seems like some of these negative comments about it while hes still in the process of getting it uploaded for people just distract from all the work he (all all the people who helped supply custom content for it) did.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox, now.


goggles... I merely expressed that having the meshes and such in seperate downloads might make things easier for some peeps... however if you wanna accuse me of saying his work is somehow not worthy or that I'm trying to disparage what he's done... well then you REALLY need to learn to read before you type.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: USAgent on January 15, 2009, 11:04:10 PM
Quote from: GogglesPizanno on January 15, 2009, 10:31:37 PM
would you really want to download his mod and then go through and download 500 meshes from various yahoo groups just to play it? Or download all the new maps seperately and have to go through installing and merging them?


That would surely stink. No way would I want to have to go through all the various sites (which hopefully still existed) and download each mesh and skin, then probably go to another site to get the keyframes, then download the maps/fx then install everything, then hope everything works.......  That would be a big turn off.  I do appreciate the fact that Benton did extensive testing to make sure that we get everything in working order in one download...as big as it is.  I am so looking forward to this (even though I will probably have to remove some stuff from my dinky hard drive first)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: WyldFyre on January 15, 2009, 11:14:45 PM
Benton,

I was able to download the full file when it was released, and it installed fine. It took about 2 hours to dload on my wireless connection. I did have to re-start the dload because the 1st time stopped at 128 mb.  But after I redid it everything worked a-ok.

Hope you can solve the problems everyone else is having.

Thanks for all your hard work. I look forward to playing with this for several days.

Wyldfyre
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 16, 2009, 03:44:48 AM
it's not a collection of meshes and skins.  there are also maps, hero and villian stats.  all this combines to make an excellent mod.  even if there were no missions at all.  consider it a supersize danger room mod.  the missions are an added bonus.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 05:02:54 AM
Wow!  Ha, I am away for an evening and some interesting things happen.  First, thank you so much to Goggles and the others who defended my efforts.  Even though I'm sure IPS and Vertex didn't mean anything antagonistic with their observations and questions, it is still really nice to see such support for my piddling efforts.  Second, let me say that I've broken the mod into pieces, and I am uploading them as we speak.  I'm at about 50%, so it will probably be done tomorrow morning (my upload speed is REALLY freaking slow).  We'll see how this works.  Hopefully it will make the process go more smoothly.  (I'm really happy to hear that it managed to work for you Wyldfyre!  That makes me wish I hadn't removed the full thing.  Then people could try and download it if they wanted)

Now, let me try and clarify some things.  First off, Vertex, the first thing I asked when I began to do this was whether or not I should include the meshes, or just include a list.  I got an OVERWHELMING response to include the meshes. 

The DCUG is, as I have said before, the inhabitants of the DC Universe as imagined by myself, complete with built in, fully customized FFX set-ups, strings, etc.  That was what it was always intended to be, a giant sandbox, at its core.  That is what people told me they were interested in a few years ago, and that is what I have done.  It is, however, more than that.  It was also always intended to be the foundation through which I would tell the thousand and one stories that are floating around in my mind.  I started them out just for myself, but people seemed to like some of my ideas, so I decided to include the mods as well.  Everything has grown by leaps and bounds.  Where first there were about fifty characters, there are now hundreds, where first there was one Batman story-arc, there are now three separate mods.  They are not the end, however.  I included the three mods I have finished, but I've got starts on about five more, and I intend for there to be two in my first expansion pack, and many more after that.  The DCUG is the foundation, and no, I am not using everything included in it.  It is the base from which I intend to tell stories for as long as I am able.  That is why I included the map pack info, because I will be using a lot of FF1 objects and maps, and I want to be able to use them, mix them, and combine them freely.  I've already used my fair share of them in the three mods included, but there are, I'm sure, many more that I haven't used.  There are TONS of meshes included that aren't actively included in my mods (although a surprising number are), but I thoroughly hope that, even if I never get around to telling the story of, let's say the Blue Beetle, someone will.  They'll be able to use my efforts as a springboard for their own creation.  As you say, it is the responsibility of the mod maker to trim fat, and I have certainly tried my darndest, to the point of exhaustion.  I've tried to cut out redundancy, I've tried to remove things that are unnecessary, and I've tried to keep track of everything, but this is a massive project....and I'm only one guy.  I've done my best, but there is probably still some fat somewhere.  Still, that fat is not the characters who don't appear in the mod, as that was what started all of this.  I understand that the size will certainly be a turnoff for many, and I am very sorry that this is the case.  I do hope that the rest of you enjoy it, and find it worth the space and the wait.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 16, 2009, 05:37:33 AM
 :thumbup:


I don't think my original meaning got over that well. My comment was more towards why people tend to wanna release huge mega files instead of ... as you have now done a set of smaller files EVERYBODY  can handle. You have in essence done what I was suggesting. Never meant to imply that the overall final result shouldn't and couldn't be exactly what it will be. Just mean that it's a lot easier for all those people you wanna reach when they don't have to deal with such a large file that often.. won't allow those you wish to reach.. to be reached.

  Now back in the day however, many mods for a reason I never did understand INSISTED on material that only could.. only should be released in their mod. I never could wrap my head  around that, because it implied that the mod wouldn't be worth as much if it didn't have specific meshes and so on to "lure" people to it. This sort of thinking I blame many bad movies on.. when studio execs insist that they need that big box office actor who soaks up their entire budget (and isn't that good an actor to begin with) instead of finding someone who really can act and fill the part. 
  A mod is a TON of work on oh so many levels, You have the drudge grunt work of gathering everything to together doing oh so much editing and .. well the list goes on. Beyond that though is the more artistic side, the creative work of story telling and creating the experience that you want to share with others. The thought that they need to drag people to that... well honestly it degrades the work done in the mod.
  Bear with me, like I said this went on more back in the day with mods not NOW so much because those of us that are left are more in it for the creative art and love of the genre than glory of pure numbers. What you've done is a labor of love and never implied it was anything but. However, I think you realized when peeps started reported problems.. those mega bloated downloads are hell on people.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 16, 2009, 05:54:29 AM
Sheesh Vertex...
How are we supposed to blow these things all out of proportion when you go and be all... logical.

Now Im gonna have to go and find something new and different to grumble about.... Wheres Prev???
:P
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Volsung on January 16, 2009, 10:55:56 AM
Gosh! I missed the release!!!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: kkhohoho on January 16, 2009, 01:27:26 PM
How many parts are there supposed to be? There's 7 parts uploaded so far.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: TaskMasterX on January 16, 2009, 02:22:56 PM
Congrats, BG! You've put alot of effort and time into this and I know it feels great to see it all come to fruition. This is why I love hanging around here - too see all these great ideas and hard work on expanding this game! Thanks, BG! :thumbup:
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 16, 2009, 04:30:23 PM
Hmm, a single 800 mb compressed file shouldn't translate into 15 separate files that add up to 1.3 gigs.

Well, we'll figure it out, never fear.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 04:45:28 PM
Grrr!  Well, 15 parts is what is supposed to be there.  They should all be the same size, except for the last one.  I just double checked all of the files I uploaded, and they are all the right size, so it doesn't look like any of them got mangled on upload.  I can't actually see the files in my online folder, however, which troubles me.  When I go to upload them, though, it tells me that they are there, and the right size.

Well everyone, these SHOULD be working as far as I can tell.  My suggestion is, that if you download it, you should check each of the archives to make sure they are the same size (except for #15), and if any of them are not, redownload that piece.

Okay ladies and gentlemen, here's hoping it works this time.  

Vertex, no harm done.  I hope you enjoy it!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Cyber Burn on January 16, 2009, 05:03:25 PM
   I think I must have blinked, where is the download at?
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 05:39:53 PM
Whoops, sorry!

dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.part01.rar

And all the way to

dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.part15.rar
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 16, 2009, 05:41:48 PM
You know, it might make things a lot simpler if you put up a download page with the links, even if that was all that was up there.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 05:48:20 PM
Cat, that's a great idea....but I don't have a clue how to do that!  Ha, my wife knows a little about that kind of thing.  I'll see if I can't talk her into doing that for me.

Man IPS....all this stuff is giving me a headache.  I haven't the foggiest as to what could be causing that.  Is the shortcut pointing to the right place?  What exactly happens when you try and start it?  Where does it hang up?
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 06:00:44 PM
Thanks for the details IPS, I appreciate you taking the time to fight with this thing.  I'm going to do a little testing on my end, and then I may upload a file with just the .dats in it, and see if that helps.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Previsionary on January 16, 2009, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: ips on January 16, 2009, 05:55:58 PM
yup. i even made a new shortcut to test my own. it launches the game as normal ... black screen comes up. green genie would normally appear flying through the IG logo, but she never does. the game becomes unresponsive and hangs on the black screen.

did you get any errors, IPS? Anything reported in your logs? My initial thought is that it's loading a lot of data your comp hasn't *seen* before, and because of that, it's slowing down and becomes unresponsive.

This is based on the theory that too many meshes and herofiles tend to slow the game. The mod seems to have an influx of meshes, skins, fx, and missions, so the wait time will be longer for you until your computer adjusts to it...or something. I dunno....where's Tutie-Shirley and the tutelettes?!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Blitzgott on January 16, 2009, 06:08:26 PM
http://dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.zip redirects to a page with all fifteen links.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 06:13:42 PM
Blitzgott, you're the man!  Ha, thanks for finding that.  IPS, I'm still testing, I should know something definite in a moment.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Previsionary on January 16, 2009, 06:17:30 PM
Quote from: ips on January 16, 2009, 06:12:30 PM
Quote from: Previsionary on January 16, 2009, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: ips on January 16, 2009, 05:55:58 PM
yup. i even made a new shortcut to test my own. it launches the game as normal ... black screen comes up. green genie would normally appear flying through the IG logo, but she never does. the game becomes unresponsive and hangs on the black screen.

did you get any errors, IPS? Anything reported in your logs? My initial thought is that it's loading a lot of data your comp hasn't *seen* before, and because of that, it's slowing down and becomes unresponsive.

This is based on the theory that too many meshes and herofiles tend to slow the game. The mod seems to have an influx of meshes, skins, fx, and missions, so the wait time will be longer for you until your computer adjusts to it...or something. I dunno....where's Tutie-Shirley and the tutelettes?!

no there are no logs because the game doesn't actually launch. logging begins when a mission of some kind starts not when the app first opens right?

The game actually starts logging when the game is launched. It's just rewritten during every new mission/session.

Also...yay for a new site! ^_^
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 06:22:42 PM
Okay, I've done a little testing, and it is working fine on my end, but the game does take a while to load, and it seems that the usual Green Genie thing doesn't play.  That's got be baffled, but seeing as it is working, I can live with it.  Also, if you chose the "Extract to DCUG" option while having all of the files selected, apparently it gives you a double layer of folders, so you've got DCUG INSIDE another DCUG.  I figure that you probably would have caught that if it had happened, but it is just the kind of simple thing that would escape my notice, so I figure I'd better mention it.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 16, 2009, 06:23:11 PM
Quotehttp://dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.zip redirects to a page with all fifteen links.
Yeah, but that's an error page.  Hardly the way to go.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 06:35:50 PM
True Cat, ha, but beggars can't be choosers.  At this point I will happily accept it, and hopefully I'll be able to replace it with something a bit prettier soon.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 07:03:03 PM
Hooray! :thumbup:
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Redwolf on January 16, 2009, 07:05:36 PM
Well, I've download all 15 pieces and it turns out to be almost 5 Gig extracted!!! Wow! I don't see a DCUG folder within a DCUG either. The "art" folder alone is 4.73 Gig. Is this right?
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 07:48:35 PM
Yep, 'fraid so.  The DCUG is a beast.  You've got around 2.5 gigs of meshes and 2.5 gigs of art/map stuff.  If you've already got the mappack installed, you don't need all of that, though.  Maybe I'll upload a version without that stuff for people who already have the mappack, if Cat agrees it is a good idea. 
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 08:18:41 PM
Well, I knew this was going to happen sooner or later.  I just KNEW that despite testing those missions like crazy there would be errors...but I have to admit, I sorta' hoped that they'd be a little later on. :(  Alright IPS, I will start looking into this immediately.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 09:36:00 PM
Okay IPS, from what I can see, the game is loading the 3rd mission for some reason, instead of the 2nd.  That would definitely explain why it won't start (the game is looking for Superman, and only finding Batman).  I don't get it, because the campaign is pointing in the right direction, and the right files are in the right place.  I'll do some more testing and see if I can turn up anything out of the ordinary.

On another note, I have been informed that some of the content creators here are unhappy about my little project.  The very last thing I want to do is misuse someone's artwork, so I very much hope that anyone who is dissatisfied will contact me.  I have never made any secret about what I was doing here, but it seems that there have been quite a few misconceptions.  I hope that we can sort everything out, but if someone is well and truly unhappy with their work appearing in the DCUG, I will certainly remove it immediately.

:EDIT: Okay, it looks like SOMEHOW, a line was added between "the" and the rest of the script in the opening encounter, thereby losing the Unfade command...hard to play the mission when you can't see anything.  I'm uploading a fixed mission script now.

:EDIT2: So, hold on a sec., apparently something really weird is going on with this mission.  There are spaces skipped randomly throughout it, missing lines, all kinds of oddness.  I'm checking the others.  This has somehow happened since I tested it, and I haven't touched the mission since then.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 10:35:35 PM
S'okay IPS, I believe I've found the issue for the 3rd mission too.  It looks like the game can't find Jimmy's head.nif.  That's because at some point in time I accidentally copied in another copy of his mesh, which DIDN'T have the head.nif.  All you have to do is copy the head.nif from any other folder in custom/characters, and drop it in jimmy_olsen.  I'll upload a new mesh folder just for ease of fixing it.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 16, 2009, 10:59:17 PM
Oh the joys of debugging....  :banghead:

Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 16, 2009, 11:06:48 PM
Yeah, the fun part is that I've already done all of this. :angry:  Anyway, the first bug fix is up:

http://dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.UPDATE.rar
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Xenolith on January 16, 2009, 11:41:27 PM
I don't want to know who is upset over this or why, but I just wanted to say that your mod is exactly the kind of thing that will hopefully bring more people into our community and admire the hard work you and the people that created the meshes, skins, keyframs, voicepaks, and other aspects of the game worked so hard on.

Thanks, Benton.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: kkhohoho on January 17, 2009, 12:11:23 AM
So I played a rumble room match to test things out. I decided to play as Lex Luthor, The Joker, Cheetah, and Zoom. My opponents were Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Barry Allan. However, unlike how this match probably would have played out in the comics, Lexy and Zoom were the only ones left standing, along with most of the buildings. One building was nearly brought to the ground.

So far, this is a pretty good mod. ^_^ Just one real issue at this point which might be impossible to fix: the fliers often fly away when I try to use ground melee against them. It's rather annoying. &lt;_&lt;
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 17, 2009, 12:21:29 AM
I'm very glad to hear that Xenolith.  I hope you enjoy it!  Kk, ha, that sounds like a fun time!  Yeah, Lex is pretty awesome against Superman, because he poisons the big guy.  That makes it a bit of an uneven fight, since Supes can't get close.  As far as the Melee Vs. Flight thing goes...well, I definitely want to address that eventually.  HOPEFULLY with my first expansion I'll include a whole new set of AI files that will tell any tank to duke it out rather than flit around.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: kkhohoho on January 17, 2009, 01:04:05 AM
Found a bug. I discovered it in Issue 1 of JLA. Martain Manhunter's original from cannot change mass. However, he is able to do all of his other stuff that is provided by FFX.

EDIT: In JLA #1, the Martian's in front of cage 1 do nothing when you attack them, and when you free the helpless captive, you can't talk to him.

EDIT: Just realized that the JLA #1 errors are happening because I loaded the save file. (That's a whole 'nother thing together.)

EDIT: Forgot to say that the astronauts are pink.

EDIT: In your JLA campaign, Batman is pink. :mellow:

EDIT: In mission 2 of JLA, there is nothing but complete and utter darkness, rendering the mission playable. I'll have to use 'mission_win.'

EDIT: In mission 3, Superman is pink. I've come to the conclusion that your JLA mod is full of errors, and unfortunately, I think I'll wait till it gets fixed before I play the campaign again, no offense.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 17, 2009, 02:22:05 AM
Kk, make sure to download the update which fixes both the second and third JLA missions.  You can find the link further up this page, and on the first page of this thread. 

The pink skins are a video card issue.  I'd advise either A) restarting your computer, or B) converting the skins in question to .DDS.  That is something that I've got no control over, unfortunately.

:EDIT: Make sure to check the first post in this thread for updates from time to time.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Epimethee on January 17, 2009, 02:34:59 AM
Congrats on the release, Benton!

BTW, concerning the download issues, I know the Bittorrent protocol is mostly known for piracy (though it's quite useful for downloading the fatter Linux distros), but it would be quite appropriate for this kind of project, if only because of the error correction built in to avoid corrupt downloads. Mind you, the way splitting the archive into multiple parts is perfectly fine by me too. (And I can't fathom why the otherwise nice 7-Zip format still can't split an archive ? shouldn't that be trivial to implement?)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: steamteck on January 17, 2009, 04:13:34 AM
OK, I really like it so far but I've got a weird one. Normally i run with the FXXmappack now after downloding and running DCUG, All hurled objects just vanish when they hit no fragments. this for all FFVTTR mods original game everything!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 17, 2009, 04:40:43 AM
Whoa!  So, let me get this straight, everything was hunkydory, and then you downloaded and installed the DCUG, and now thrown objects in any build of the game disappear after being thrown?  That is majorly bizarre.  The DCUG doesn't modify any system files.  It installs in its own folder.  I can't understand how that happened.  It may be a good idea to post in the FFX thread.

Thanks for the clarification IPS.  That's about the size of it.  Converting character skins to .DDS will probably help keep the resource use down a bit.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: steamteck on January 17, 2009, 04:45:14 AM
Yeah majorly weird I'll try over there.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: kkhohoho on January 17, 2009, 04:48:28 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 17, 2009, 04:40:43 AM
Whoa!  So, let me get this straight, everything was hunkydory, and then you downloaded and installed the DCUG, and now thrown objects in any build of the game disappear after being thrown?  That is majorly bizarre.  The DCUG doesn't modify any system files.  It installs in its own folder.  I can't understand how that happened.  It may be a good idea to post in the FFX thread.

Thanks for the clarification IPS.  That's about the size of it.  Converting character skins to .DDS will probably help keep the resource use down a bit.

Is it possible to do mass conversion?
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 17, 2009, 04:56:44 AM
Ohh......I need to look into that.  That would definitely save space.  And it helps save resources too?  It will take some work to figure out which meshes use the same KFs, but it would be doable.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: steamteck on January 17, 2009, 05:37:03 AM
OK, it was happening even out of FFx so i reinstalled FFVTTR and it works. Tomorrow reinstalling DCUG unless you think I should wait for some  refinements.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Cyber Burn on January 17, 2009, 06:53:13 PM
   Congrats on the release Benton. I have been seriously looking forward to this for some time now. Hopefully within the next week or so I can find someone with a high-speed connection who will let me use their pc to download this. And I agree with IPS in regards to the keyframe sharing technique as well as the dds conversion. It will save some major space on everyone's hard drives.

   One last question, since I have the beta installed, when I do install the final release, do overwrite the beta with the final, or uninstall the beta completely before installing the final? Thanks.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 17, 2009, 07:14:32 PM
It would take all of about 30 seconds to put a simple text link page up.

I can do it for you if you'd like.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Blitzgott on January 17, 2009, 08:08:00 PM
First of all, congratulations on the release, Benton. I did not had much time to play the mod (only enough to have my backside handed over to me by those White Martians), but I can tell you've put a lot of effort in making it, and it paid off.

Anyway, I've got a little problem. Like kkhohoho mentioned above, Martian Manhunter's Mass Control is not working. I get this on my script.log:

Spoiler
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "D:\Freedom Force vs The 3rd Reich\.\DCUG\missions\scripts\ffx.py", line 7983, in OnMassDown
    Object_PlayEffect(char,'effect_ffx_density','',FX_TRACK_OBJECT_POS)
RuntimeError: Object_PlayEffect(): Effect NIF not found - effect_ffx_density
AI: _skthe_joker01:'the_joker' hunting 'hero_0'
AI: _skthe_joker01:'the_joker' hunting 'hero_0'
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "D:\Freedom Force vs The 3rd Reich\.\DCUG\missions\scripts\ffx.py", line 7961, in OnMassUp
    Object_PlayEffect(char,'effect_ffx_density','',FX_TRACK_OBJECT_POS)
RuntimeError: Object_PlayEffect(): Effect NIF not found - effect_ffx_density
AI: _skthe_joker01:'the_joker' hunting 'hero_0'

I'll let you know if I find any other problems.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 18, 2009, 01:55:25 AM
Okay, I'll start working on the keyframes thing.  I don't really know that I should do the .DDS conversions, since that will be altering skins that I didn't create.  What is the decorum in regards to that?  Whatever happens, I'll see if I can't finish all of that stuff up by the end of next week, and probably put up a new version of the mod.  You won't need to redownload, but if you are having slowdown or pink mesh issues, it will probably help you. 

Steamteck, I can't imagine what would be causing that, so I don't know how to fix it, if it is DCUG related.  It is entirely possible that if you wait until the next update, and the problem is rooted with the mod, it will still exist, unless someone can figure it out.

Thanks CB!  DEFINITELY delete the Beta, I've changed so much, I have no idea if an overwrite would make everything work right. 

Cat, if you're willing, I would be happy to have something that was a bit prettier than an error page.  I simply don't know how to do it.

Thanks Blitzgott!  The Mass Control thing is something that I don't understand...I'm tempted to just leave it be, since you only use that version of the Manhunter in that level.

Thanks IPS, I appreciate that!

Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 18, 2009, 05:13:19 AM
Quote from: ips on January 18, 2009, 04:57:45 AM
hey can you post a list of the missions and their order and maybe a brief description. i only played JLA missions. so i think i've missed a big chunk since other people are playing against the joker and stuff.

I'm not Tutie, but I play him on TV.

From the Read Me:
QuoteCampaigns: There are three campaigns included with this mod, but how do you play them?  Well, it is very simple.  The mod comes with JLA set as the default, but Batman and Mystery in Space are also in the DCUG folder.  Just open it up, and look for the file campdef.  Rename it JLAcampdef, and then look for whichever of the others you want to play.  They are named Batmancampdef and MiScampdef respectively.  Simply rename them to just campdef, and you're all set.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 18, 2009, 05:29:18 AM
Ha, here's hoping the others work better!  Thanks for the input IPS.  Is there a discussion anywhere in the archived stuff about good compressions, etc.  I'm afraid that this is a bit out of my area of expertise.

Would anyone be interested in a soundtrack for the missions (at least JLA)?

Batman is 7 missions
JLA 9 (I think? Ha, I've added more than I intended, not entirely sure)
MiS is 8 missions.  Has anyone tried that one yet?  A real labor of love, that one, and I'm not sure anyone will even care to play it, but the characters involved are some of my favorites. ^_^

Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: kkhohoho on January 18, 2009, 06:03:16 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 18, 2009, 05:29:18 AM
MiS is 8 missions.  Has anyone tried that one yet?  A real labor of love, that one, and I'm not sure anyone will even care to play it, but the characters involved are some of my favorites. ^_^

Oh, I tried it. Soon as the Hawks show up, I get an error box, and I have to close the game. (I am aware of the 'bugs' thread.)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: steamteck on January 18, 2009, 03:30:20 PM
Quote from: ips on January 18, 2009, 04:57:45 AM


btw i doubt steamteck's problem is related to your mod. it's self contained as long as it's in the DCUG folder. there are no files outside of the mod folder for it to affect other mods. it's impossible unless he installed the mod's files to the main folder instead of the DCUG folder. ...so, the problem existed before the mod and he didn't notice or he did something else to the main game files that is affecting all mods.


That's the conclusion I came to also. It definitely happened the same time but was probably just coincidental timing. I didn't do anything I know of but FFX control center seemed to start acting really weird after I installed DCUG so maybe something hiccuped there with thr control center..
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 19, 2009, 04:36:34 AM
Okay, another bugfix and update is uploaded, this will make MiS playable, as well as addressing all non-portrait and ghosting issues brought up so far.

http://dcug.freedomforceforever.com/DCUG.UPDATE2.rar
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Blitzgott on January 19, 2009, 05:18:55 AM
Benton, in the Update.txt, you said there is a mission.txt file, but none came with the .rar.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 19, 2009, 05:27:22 PM
Yeah, I'm just a super genius!  Sorry man, now the file is correct.  Please download it again.  I've got the right object.dat and a new mission.txt in it.

Also, can anyone tell me how to do the keyframe.txt thing, where you point it to a different file?

Another also, I can't find the thread in the archive forums that talks about the right settings for converting TGA to DDS in Photoshop, can anyone point me in the right direction?  Specifically, I need to know the best ways to save space and resources.  Like, what settings should unimportant files like .refl , etc., be given.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 21, 2009, 05:12:21 AM
So, has anyone played any of the campaigns?  How are you liking things?  How does one stack up against another?  If anyone has feedback to offer, I'd love to hear it.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 21, 2009, 07:36:42 AM
Ive only got partially through the first few levels of the JLA one due to time... but I just learned that I am soon to be on more economic induced "vacation" time... so I will have some more free time here in a little while.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 21, 2009, 07:47:53 AM
Quote from: ips on January 21, 2009, 07:39:19 AM
i've played the Justice League and started Batman...

actually i meant to ask... what campaigns is there? where do we get to use all of these other characters?
as I understand it, the other characters are set up for future campaigns, so the future mission updates won't be as large.  and also set up for other ppl, you and I, to make missions, which I intend to do.  I will make levels and submit them to BentonGrey for approval.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 21, 2009, 03:22:53 PM
Quote from: GogglesPizanno on January 21, 2009, 07:36:42 AM
Ive only got partially through the first few levels of the JLA one due to time... but I just learned that I am soon to be on more economic induced "vacation" time... so I will have some more free time here in a little while.

I'm sorry to hear that Goggles, I hope things pick up for you soon!  I'm trying to find a job in this economy, as I'm finishing my Master's...lots of fun.

Quote from: ips on January 21, 2009, 07:39:19 AM
i've played the Justice League and started Batman...

actually i meant to ask... what campaigns is there? where do we get to use all of these other characters?

Like Bearded pointed out, there are other campaigns forthcoming, but there is also one more called "Mystery in Space" (MiScampdef), which I had sorta' been trying to make a surprise.  I suppose the cat is out of the bag by now, though.  It stars Hawkman and Hawkgirl/The Atom, you play two missions of one, then two missions of the other, and so on.  Next up on my list is another JLA storyarc, in which you might just see the JSA, and the beginnings of an epic Aquaman campaign.

And, of course, I am hoping that enterprising people like Bearded will tell stories of their own!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 03:24:36 AM
Okay I'm not trying to nitpick here but which side are you arguing for/against kkhohoho? If you're arguing against IP's point... you REALLY shouldn't prove it for him.  :mellow:
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 22, 2009, 03:37:47 AM
hey.  bentongrey?
would you mind if I packed up a jla minimod using just the meshes and skins needed for that?  as an optional download for ppl.
(see?  i made a positive point without resorting to what amounts to a discouraging negative attack.  if someone doesn't want the entire download on their hard drive...don't download it!)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Previsionary on January 22, 2009, 03:45:09 AM
Quote from: kkhohoho on January 22, 2009, 03:12:28 AM
Quote from: ips on January 22, 2009, 03:03:46 AM
i made that point on the last line of the 2nd paragraph.

Ah. That's another point. It takes a lot of time and effort and to make all of those characters. Benton allows the player have access to all of those characters right off the bat. Another use for having all the characters already in is for letting other people make mods for DCUG. I read what you said about including all of that content essentially killing creativy, but some of us, like myself, need a crutch to lean on when it comes to that sort of a thing. I am set on making an EZscript campaign, but without Benton's DCUG, I don't think I would have even bothered with it in the first place, and I'm sure there others that at least feel that DCUG makes EZScript campaigning much easier. However, I don't think it entirely kills creativity. When it comes to Marvel, other companies, or original ideas, they'll have to be made by whoever wants to make that non-DC based mod, and not by Benton.

I think it's nice that you're trying to defend BG, but this isn't really your fight to fight, KKHo. As seen in the past, when others try to jump into something that has barely a thing to do with them, things get ugly. Not to mention, you did try modding at least twice before, right? One of your points was already invalidated because of your previous efforts (AOA mod). IPS addressed BG head-on as the mod provider, so it'd be best if BG responded to any and all concerns IPS had. At the very least, if you're going to add in things, do it "after" the creator responds to the matter at hand.

Also, your last post didn't really argue against IPS's point about monopolization. I think you're missing the boat on that one, bud. You're really only digging a ditch.  :unsure:
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 22, 2009, 04:02:59 AM
I want to give my support of what BG has done.  thank you, man.  I find myself encouraged by what you have created here.  it takes a great level of vision, ambition, and dedication.  and that is contagious in a 'give forward' sort of way, if you see what I mean.

I might have some critiques, and I will post them to you privately, so as not to take away from your accomplishment.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 05:10:30 AM
Well, here we are again.  IPS, I'm afraid that I really can't say much more than I already have.  I appreciate the well considered way that you have presented your argument, and I certainly don't want to disregard it out of hand.  I also appreciate that you played the mod before coming to a conclusion, and that you acknowledge what this has been and continues to be for me.  I will try and make my case again, and then I'm going to make a request about how this be addressed in the future. 

Years and years ago I downloaded the DCU mod, played it through, and absolutely loved every minute of it.  It was vast, incorporating tons of characters I loved, tons that I'd never heard of, many of them just as fodder in great brawls.  I used that mod as a base for all of my DCU collecting, leaning heavily on it for meshes, skins, etc.  Eventually though, I would see other skins, meshes, or skopes that people had created (of the same characters, maybe new characters, but new creations nontheless), and say to myself, "wow!  I really want to use THAT."  I wanted to use it so much that I learned the basics of changing out content in FF.  Eventually, I loved new creations so much that I even would modify classic mods to use new meshes and skins.  I have a copy of Suicide Squad sitting in my FF folder using almost exclusively newer meshes and skins I scrabbled from here and there.  Having a base to start from didn't stop me from constantly standing in awe at the things our content creators brought forth, and I don't really believe that it will have such a cataclysmic effect on a wider scale either.  We have always been a community of diehards and passers through.  Those who are here, watching in wonder as our artists continue to push new boundaries, and those who show up, download a mod, and never really engage.  I don't think that this is likely to change any time soon.

In the end, I can say only what I have always said.  I brought this idea forward YEARS ago.  I received a great deal of enthusiasm, interest, and support, from content creators as well as those, who like me, had not found a way to contribute.  I explained my idea again and again, and I have worked harder than you could possibly imagine to see it brought to fruition.  I am now, and will always be, willing to remove the work of ANYONE who does not approve of the way I used it.  I absolutely do not want to misuse anyone's work, but until I hear such a request, I am afraid that I will continue to try and make the DCUG what it was always intended to be.  I believe very strongly in the worth of my project, and I believe that it will be of benefit to the community, and not of harm.  If I did not believe this with all of my heart, I would not have released it.  I've already started to see the results in a small way, and I hope that I continue to see them magnified.  I appreciate your view IPS, and I do not believe that I have anything made by you in the mod...if I do, I will remove it if you so desire (there may be a set of keyframes, I'd have to check).  Now that you have expressed your final view on the subject, I ask (and I do not imagine that I have to ask, but do so for clarity) that if you wish to discuss this further, after the current conversation has concluded, that you do so in another thread, or via PMs.  I want everyone to feel free to discuss this again, but not indefinitely.  I hope to one day put nearly everything that I have included to use, and until then I hope that everyone enjoys the sandbox that I created for myself, and have offered to the community.

:EDIT: I also want to address what you said about the flexibility of the campaigns.  This was not so much a conscious choice as a function of my inexperience with EZScript.  To get things to work right, I needed to call characters names in the missions, and to do that, I had to define the teams.  I definitely want to introduce missions and campaigns that can be played with wide ranges of characters, and I have learned a GREAT deal in building these first three campaigns, so that has become a real possibility. 

:EDIT: Bearded, feel free.  In the end, everyone is equally free to download or not download my mod and its expansions as they see fit.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: steamteck on January 22, 2009, 01:13:49 PM
Personally it encouraged me to look more into stuff rather than made me complacent. I would have never know lots of these meshes existed if not for DCUG.  I think IPS  means well but he sometimes loses sight of the individual trees worrying too much about the forest. i appreciate your efforts and they've renewed my interest in mainstream stuff which had pretty much disappeared. I understand your mod is a personal vision not a community project which should pass political correctness and I as a lowely user appreciate your efforts and sharing with us. The amount of work you must have done is mind boggling.

IPS is often the moral voice of the community but I think he just need to step back and take a few deep breathes on this one.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 03:31:14 PM
You know IPS, you say that Kk proved your point, and in a way he did, but I'd say that he proved mine too.  Kk is a fellow who is a lot like I was when I first came to the community.  I was all spit and vinegar, and I wanted nothing more than to jump into all this cool stuff that was being created head first.  Unfortunately, I quickly discovered that making a mod was a GREAT deal of work.  I worked hard, tried to learn scripting, but between school and life, I couldn't really do it.  So, I made a lot of noise, and eventually the project I was trying to work on died without anything coming of it.  I took, but I didn't give anything back.  Well, years passed and I had a bit more time and a bit more perseverance (being unemployed for a few months helped :P), and I started on a project that actually did go somewhere, but only because people like M25 and Epimethee made it so much easier for me with EZScript.  What I did at first I would have done whether EZScript existed or not, because I wasn't motivated and didn't have the time to put the work into the project that it needed.  It is now as it has always been, if someone is motivated to seek out new content and to contribute to the community, they will.  If they are not, then they won't, and it is that simple.  Making things easier for people to engage and create will, I believe (and I am far from alone in this belief), only strengthen the community. 

You continue to imply that the people who support my project are just out for their own enjoyment, just after their "toys," but it is just possible that they believe in what I have done.  Bearded is a creator, and he is perhaps the most excited about the possibilities that the DCUG presents, but he isn't alone.  I have gotten messages from a lot of our members, some of them pillars of the community, who agree with what I've done.  I won't name them here, because if they wanted to get involved in this they'd have posted on the thread, but suffice to say that I am not really afraid that I have offended the community.  You keep talking about the creators, and saying that I have (however unwittingly) misused their art.  Well, we are several weeks past the release, and this has not been a quiet debate.  Yet I have received no complaints and numerous commendations.  It would seem that you are the only one truly troubled by this.

Nevertheless, you are troubled by it, and I will not misuse your work.  Fire and Ice will be removed, and I think the VX_Wonder_Woman kfs I'm using are yours, is that correct?  Do you happen to know what FX you made that was included in EZFX?  Not all FX have readmes, and I don't wish to miss anything.  I am truly sorry that we could not reach an understanding IPS, and I am also sorry to lose your work.  I have great respect for you as an artist.

I think that we may consider this conversation finished. 
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 03:37:58 PM
Um, IPS, Benton was very straight forward about what he was doing in the beginning.  I doubt most people who have stuff he uses in this mod were at all confused in the purpose of it.  It wasn't even originally supposed to have all these campaign and scenarios in its original release in the first place.

Base mods like this one are very common in the modding world and no one has any problem with them.  In fact they are considered full mods, making your distinction of used in and distributed with quite wrong.  What Benton has essentially done is created a sandbox mod for people to play in his vision of the DC world.  This is something fun, something that people will enjoy, and far from destroying creativity or modding this kind of mod tends to have the opposite effect, especially for people unwilling or unable to make a full-sized mod on their own.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but you really should have spoken out when Benton first proposed the idea, not months and many hours of labor later.  Again, while this is unique in our own community, this kind of thing is fairly common in the broader modding world.  Actually FFX is an example of a base mod itself, yet because it does the same thing with coding and not with art you seem to have no problem with it, yet it serves the same general purposes and you have made no demands to remove any attributes/swaps not used in the actually included campaign, nor any protests that it will stifle coding creativity as folks will use the included custom attributes instead of building their own.  It has had much the opposite effect, in fact.

:ph34r:  by Benton, but I trust my points still hold.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 04:04:44 PM
tl;dr.

Is this a mod or a character/fxs pak with a couple of mission?

If it is character/fxs pak with missions, what was the point of adding so much other content (bloating the download) if you can only play as a few JLA members? When this idea was originally presented I thought it was going to be a massive mod where you were able to play as multiple combination of characters in given missions. How is this any different than making a bootleg mixtape from your personal favorite artists and making it available to the public with a new intro and packaging?

Quote from: steamteck on January 22, 2009, 01:13:49 PM
I think IPS  means well but he sometimes loses sight of the individual trees worrying too much about the forest.

IPS is often the moral voice of the community but I think he just need to step back and take a few deep breathes on this one.

I saw this and lol'ed for a good minute. Are you a FF content creator? If not you really can't tell someone who provides a lot of cool dren for you play with without receiving a nickel (or pence) in return to "step back". I think content creators have a right to say whatever they want about packaged content that includes their work. If someone asked for your money for a present for a friend and they wanted to get drugs but you didn't want your money spent that way, don't you think you have right to protest?

Also I think you are missing the whole point, steamteck. IPS is not looking at the forest, he's looking at other fruitful trees while you guys (FF users? No, users sounds bad, players! Yeah! That's the word) are like the people on the ground. While Benton did encourage you to get back into Mainstream stuff, he also limited your line of sight. You no longer see all the trees and think "that Wonder Apple looks good on that tree I'm going to get it" but rather "I should just go down to the Benton's store because I know he has Wonder Apples, Bat Oranges and Super everything else I may want when it comes to DC fruits".

Benton, while I don't have problem with what you did (I did put my stuff on the internet without password protection for a reason), I can understand how others could be upset. Amazing skins/meshes are often looked over because the easier to find ones are available. Is that your fault, no but it does make it harder for creators, past and present, to continue to live on when all the "ready-to-use" stuff is easily available in one place.  

If I ever stopped skinning, I would be hurt if my skins were forgotten because someone made a pak with C6 and IPS' work (sorry C6 and IPS just using you as an example, buds) and made it available without even considering maybe people want to use my "insert a skin I did here" but they don't know it is there because soon as they get to the forum people just direct them to the "all-in-one every mainstream character" pak.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 03:37:58 PM
Um, IPS, Benton was very straight forward about what he was doing in the beginning.  I doubt most people who have stuff he uses in this mod were at all confused in the purpose of it.  It wasn't even originally supposed to have all these campaign and scenarios in its original release in the first place.

I gave him the ok and I still not sure what the mod is.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 04:13:38 PM
I feel I absolutely must chime in on this topic...

Its been often suggested I'm trying to monopolize the mesh side of things for this community for a long time. That somehow I have an agenda to take over and force everyone to use what I make instead of what's out there. Usually it's all in good joking fun, or put in a joke to keep it from being taken too harshly. Anyways my point is this...... HA HA wasn't me! I didn't do it, .... either that or I was too slow, but this is NOT my grand scheme to take over the worlld and I would just like that on record.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 04:18:45 PM
Quoteand ffx does not exclude anyone's efforts.

I'd like to say for the record that this is not true.  We did indeed choose to leave some things out for various reasons, although it is rather rare.

I still disagree with the point.  In any mod based on these characters, you have to make a decision which one to use.  Sandbox style doesn't change that, nor does it change the appeal of trying out a new skin of a character, something which this mod actually would in theory make easier to do in some ways.

Anyway, I've pretty much said all I need to say at this point.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 04:27:08 PM
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 04:18:45 PM
Quoteand ffx does not exclude anyone's efforts.

I'd like to say for the record that this is not true.  We did indeed choose to leave some things out for various reasons, although it is rather rare.

I still disagree with the point.  In any mod based on these characters, you have to make a decision which one to use.  Sandbox style doesn't change that, nor does it change the appeal of trying out a new skin of a character, something which this mod actually would in theory make easier to do in some ways.

Anyway, I've pretty much said all I need to say at this point.

Is this actually a sandbox mod though? From my understanding this seems more like add-on content and a couple of new missions. Also how is a sandbox mod any different than me setting up a torrent with my character folder for all to download (which everyone here frowns on)? So is it that we are frowning on the use of torrent over downloading zips or was the idea about not having everyone's work lumped together for quick downloads for noobs?

If this is just a no torrents thing, that's |3#11$#1+
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
AA, there are three different campaigns included, THREE campaigns, one 7 missions long, and the other two 8 or more.  It is a bit more than just a few missions.  These campaigns which allow you to play as and against many characters included in the mod (not all by a long shot, but it isn't as though these campaigns are just an afterthought), and they are the beginnings of something much bigger.  The Batman campaign alone encompasses most of his villains, and while the others aren't as far reaching because of the types of stories that they tell, they are far from being the end of my efforts.  The entire purpose of me realesing this in the first place, AA, is so that others can have a common base from which to tell stories.  I hope that characters who I have not worked with will eventually have their own stories told.  In the meantime, my first expansion will include campaigns in which you play as the JSA, the Aqua Family, and more.  I know Bearded wants to work with the Flash, and I have plans for GL and his villains, and the JLA campaigns will continue to expand their roster...there is no end in sight.

How is what I have done different from a mix tape?  Well, for one, I have done TONS of work on the FFEdit side.  This doesn't just a have a Green Lantern mesh and skin included, it also has him built into the game, with details like strings data painstakingly created, and all the customizations of FFX made, so that Hal uses his abilities very differently than, say, Killowog.  These are small details, but they are why I started this in the first place.  I wanted total immersion.  Now, I appreciate that you have given me permission to use your work AA, but I really do want you to understand what I am doing.  It is not merely a torrent, but the culmination of three years of hard work that encompasses a vast swath of the DC Universe.  The meshes and skins are a big part of that, but hardly all of it.  If so, I could have released it three years ago when I had most of the meshes and skins gathered.  Man, if that was all I had to do, I wasted three years of hard work.  What a sucker!

IPS, since no-one had chimed in with similar concerns in the weeks since the mod had been released, I thought that the matter was settled, I was mistaken.  Thank you for pointing me to the EZScript list.  I will begin immediately, and I will try and take the mod down this evening.  When I upload it again, I promise to you that I will have removed everything of yours that I can find in my mod.  
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: steamteck on January 22, 2009, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 04:04:44 PM
tl;dr.



Quote from: steamteck on January 22, 2009, 01:13:49 PM
I think IPS  means well but he sometimes loses sight of the individual trees worrying too much about the forest.

IPS is often the moral voice of the community but I think he just need to step back and take a few deep breathes on this one.

I saw this and lol'ed for a good minute. Are you a FF content creator? If not you really can't tell someone who provides a lot of cool dren for you play with without receiving a nickel (or pence) in return to "step back". I think content creators have a right to say whatever they want about packaged content that includes their work. If someone asked for your money for a present for a friend and they wanted to get drugs but you didn't want your money spent that way, don't you think you have right to protest?

"

Obviously people read something into this I didn't mean or I wasn't clear. I was just trying to say he needed a little perspective.  I didn't know I had to be a creator to participate  in the conversation. I never said he couldn't do anything with his work, I never made any demands. I just said he should maybe take a little  time to think about it. I'm sorry I said anything. I know I;m just a player but I meant no offense just wanted to help.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: steamteck on January 22, 2009, 04:47:08 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 04:04:44 PM
tl;dr.



Also I think you are missing the whole point, steamteck. IPS is not looking at the forest, he's looking at other fruitful trees while you guys (FF users? No, users sounds bad, players! Yeah! That's the word) are like the people on the ground. While Benton did encourage you to get back into Mainstream stuff, he also limited your line of sight. You no longer see all the trees and think "that Wonder Apple looks good on that tree I'm going to get it" but rather "I should just go down to the Benton's store because I know he has Wonder Apples, Bat Oranges and Super everything else I may want when it comes to DC fruits".



That's certainly not me but maybe some people are like that. I like  your  apples  in all varieties for example and will always check your store. I've downloaded several of your marvel and DC skins afterwords for example . Benton's vision isn;t quite mine and I certainly will actively look for more mainstream content now. Maybe  others are different. Again I meant no offense. I know I'm not a creator but I've been around along time and thought my input could be helpful. Sorry.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 04:51:40 PM
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
AA, there are three different campaigns included, THREE campaigns, one 7 missions long, and the other two 8 or more.
I haven't downloaded it and too be honest I think it is a little too large for a mod (I like to save my memory for other things of an adult nature if you know what I mean) but whateverz.

Quote from: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
How is what I have done different from a mix tape?  Well, for one, I have done TONS of work on the FFEdit side.

DJs who create mixtapes do tons of mixing of other people's songs, it doesn't make it right or ok with the original artists.

Quote from: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
This doesn't just a have a Green Lantern mesh and skin included, it also has him built into the game, with details like strings data painstakingly created, and all the customizations of FFX made, so that Hal uses his abilities very differently than, say, Killowog.  These are small details, but they are why I started this in the first place.  I wanted total immersion.  
So you are dictating to noobs how characters' powers work or what they do? Gotcha! I'm all for that!

Quote from: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
Now, I appreciate that you have given me permission to use your work AA, but I really do want you to understand what I am doing.  It is not, as IPS continues to say, merely a torrent, but the culmination of three years of hard work that encompasses a vast swath of the DC Universe.  The meshes and skins are a big part of that, but hardly all of it.  If so, I could have released it three years ago when I had most of the meshes and skins gathered.  

Hey, you are preaching to the wrong dude. While I would be hurt if my work was lost to the community because of this mod's ridgedness, I don't care what you do with what I put on the internetz especially if it is a character I didn't create. I'm just a skinner, bud.

Quote from: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
IPS, since no-one had chimed in with similar concerns in the weeks since the mod had been released, I thought that the matter was settled, I was mistaken.  Thank you for pointing me to the EZScript list.  I will begin immediately, and I will try and take the mod down this evening.  When I upload it again, I promise to you that I will have removed everything of yours that I can find in my mod.  

Oh my gawd, so you are going to force people to download it again? Hey Benton, how about to break the mod into digestible pieces. As I said before, the only reason I have no clue what your mod is about is because well it is way to large even for my 300 gb hard drive. I mean 5gs for a 4 year old game!?
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 05:18:07 PM
QuoteAs I said before, the only reason I have no clue what your mod is about is because well it is way to large even my 300 gb hard drive.

I'd like to point out that he is working on this and the dds + keyframe links should massively decrease the size.

QuoteDJs who create mixtapes do tons of mixing of other people's songs, it doesn't make it right or ok with the original artists.

Except that a song is a complete work that can be popped right on the air.  A skin is not.  In order to be used, it needs a lot of other things, meshes, keyframes, state swaps, etc.  These are as much a work as the skin itself it, even if of a totally different nature.

QuoteSo you are dictating to noobs how characters' powers work or what they do? Gotcha! I'm all for that!

The same is true of any mod.  The only difference here is that not all of them are used in a campaign.  Yet.  Bentons does have plans for adding compaigns and scenarios using many more characters, you know.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 05:19:06 PM
Well AA, what I've been working on (frantically!) for the last week has been finding ways to save space.  I hope to cut a few gigs out of the download, but we'll see how much I can manage.  I've been converting skins to .DDS and trying to share KFs between meshes.  As for breaking the mod into digestible chunks, at the moment it is in about 18 or so little, 100mb pieces, per community request.  I won't be forcing people to download it again, but it will be an option for those who are space/resource conscious.  

I don't think comparing what I have done with a mix tape is fair.  I do hope that when the slimmer, trimmer version is released you will check it out AA.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Previsionary on January 22, 2009, 05:26:03 PM
Good luck removing all those textures. Better hope they didn't show up in any other fx. :P
--------

Well, because I was asked to weigh in, I guess I will. This discussion is interesting because of the "lateness" of the complaints. If they had come out 2+ years ago when Benton had threads all over the place announcing the mod, I think it'd be a different story. I think BG handled it much better than most would if someone came in and said, "I don't agree and here's why...," after years of hard work. These things weren't hidden from anyone, so let's not make it seem like it was. There were enough threads and buzz for every active contributer to see and voice their thoughts and, ya know, I think 3 years is ample time to speak out on something. I do find it odd that so many people missed it, but this is probably because so few creators pay attention to or play mods. This is said assuming BG took the PROPER procedures to get permission of all the work he has in the mod...or content pack...or what have you. I know he asked me for my work, so I'd think he did with others as well if they weren't donated directly.

Now, speaking for myself only, I didn't initially think I'd be pleased with BG's DCUG because, back when it was first announced, it came across as nothing but a hero pack. I don't inherently have a problem with that, but it did bother me a bit that people were flocking to it and ignoring other modders at the time. I, myself, probably had a mod or two coming out and barely got any feedback in comparison. Though it bothered me, it didn't bother me enough to make a scene because, well, none of my stuff was in it [at the time]. If someone had a problem, it WAS up to the content creator to speak up and clarify their rules. Once BG began making actually campaigns, I grew on the idea because he was actually creating stories--playable stories--and taking up other responsibilities that the remaining few of us modders had. He was debugging, "coding", testing, playtesting, everything I do as a modder and he was effectively going out there and learning a trade while providing content in a field that was, and is, lacking it. Because of that, I was a LOT more tolerant of the content.

As for your points, IPS, you did make several good ones. I do think a "DCUG lite" pack would make this mod a lot more accessible and probably move it out of the perceived "grey area". Looking back over the past "packs", these things didn't turn out well because the provider DID these things in private without any type of permission. These things would just pop up one day and the creators would be insulted. There's a large time gap as far as Benton's mod is concerned. Speaking of the torrent idea, this mod does actually rival it. Though you, Benton, probably have most of the permissions required to release this stuff, you aren't "actively" using it all and it is just a quick stop 'n shop...minus the shopping as everything is pre-chosen to your liking. That was the reason the torrent was never done and I guess the idea could apply here as well. Not to mention, your mod is huge. It's friggin' huge. That's already a limiting factor, imo.

The monopolization point isn't clear cut. That's a theory based on an assumption. Regardless of how many people keep claiming their going to pick up ezscript and learn it...how many have? These things change once people learn of the active work required and I still see most of the work on BG in that area. Regardless, if someone wants to use something as a base, it will be done. Just recently all of my X-men code was stolen and used as a base for something else. If it weren't for me saying something, I doubt anyone would have come to my defense. It really seems that we, as a community, are MUCH more protective over skins and meshes than the other content. Even here I didn't see a single person mention anything outside of skins/meshes outside of IPS's request to remove his content.

As an end note, why didn't anyone go into an uproar over another content pack. It's one that is also readily available and only includes TWO types of content. ff1 objects...and ff1 maps. That's right, the map pack. It's set up as a mod...only includes maps and ffx...but everyone loved it. It's a very interesting conundrum because it makes me wonder why skins and meshes are viewed much higher than maps, objects, voice packs, and fx...other than the obvious reasons. I mean, those maps aren't being used in the actual mod outside of rumble room, right? Isn't that the same problem showing up here minus this mod has more variables and many more creators involved within the same field and outside of it? Wasn't that map pack also heavily downloaded and encouraged? See what I'm getting at here...it's something to note if only because of the reactions and the lack of dividing opinions on it.

In conclusion, I find this discussion happening NOW (past prime) and not years ago (fresh and easily fixable) interesting. I understand both BG's and IPS's points and intentions, and as such, it's much harder for me to side with ANYONE here as I am a content creator, but I understand the intent behind the mod/content pack. But then, I look at other projects that got away with this freely and no one said anything...and then I look at the time span and how much "ignorance"--IE: not knowing what was going on with the mod even though it was worked on openly--there is regarding the project though it was readily available at all points...and then I see the people who've wanted this thing for a long time and enjoy all this new stuff...and we've got quite a conflict to resolve. Not to mention that most of the resolution will fall on Benton and BG alone.

As an aside, I think the tone of some of the posts could be lightened up a bit before we end up brawlin'...and I take no prisoners when I'm brawlin'.  :angry:
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: yell0w_lantern on January 22, 2009, 05:31:01 PM
Here's my thing: if you're making these things primarily for praise or recognition then maybe you're doing it for the wrong reasons. I make what I want to make and then I show it. Praise, if it happens, is nice but not necessary. I wanted to see a Silver Age Batman, Silver Age Captain Marvel and a Ted Kord Blue Beetle. There was some positive feedback but I would've made them anyway.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 05:50:28 PM
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 05:18:07 PM
I'd like to point out that he is working on this and the dds + keyframe links should massively decrease the size.

DDS aren't any smaller than tgas, they are just read correctly by the game's engine. Though the keyframes intrigues me, I do a lot of custom keys now so it moot.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 05:18:07 PM
Except that a song is a complete work that can be popped right on the air.  A skin is not.  In order to be used, it needs a lot of other things, meshes, keyframes, state swaps, etc.  These are as much a work as the skin itself it, even if of a totally different nature.

Woo woo woo, take that back. For the last year or so, I, as well as some others, have been creating complete characters. In fact, I can't remember the last time I released a skin without the skope mesh with it. If this was the heyday of skinning I would agree but it is simply not.

Quote from: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 05:19:06 PM
I don't think comparing what I have done with a mix tape is fair.  I do hope that when the slimmer, trimmer version is released you will check it out AA.

I think it is very fair. You may have sped up the tempo, put together a few songs people like to hear together, scratch over the beats, and repackaged it but the doesn't mean you are the original creator of all the conent.  Also since when are mixtapes a bad thing? A lot of well known DJs have started with mixing other people's work and scratching over it ( a lot of well known skinners too). If you are thinking of the "I created this mixtape at home for my gf" type, we are on totally different pages.


Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 05:18:07 PM
The same is true of any mod.  The only difference here is that not all of them are used in a campaign.  Yet.  Bentons does have plans for adding compaigns and scenarios using many more characters, you know.

Uhmmm no. Mods are like compilation albums. People with invested interest get together and produce an album which they believe no one will add on to. When Kanye and Jay-Z made the Black Album they didn't make a bunch of beats hoping Cameron and Nas would hear them become inspired and release as The Black Album: DCU.

Also why is everyone attacking my comments? I do not care what Benton does because I put my stuff online for a reason, however I do see how it causes some limitations for noobs and not so noobs who will assume "everything is in DCU that I need". It takes away choice is one of the negatives of this project whether you see it or not. Honestly if I was a new modder and I wanted to jump right in, I would just download DCU, create a subdirect and make my own mod out of it and release it as either ezscript or add-on mod.  If people say, "oh this is like FFX" no, it's not. FFX isn't competing with FFZ. This is the nature of skinning/meshing/fxs oppose to mods. The are thousands of Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman skins but how many  :ffvstr: mods features these characters? A handful. Honestly if I were Prev, I wouldn't make another DC mod again. I mean why would he when anyone can open ezscript, click a few buttons, and bam! New DC mod! While this speeds up production time, it is at the cost of artistic merit.

And I'm done. If anyone addresses me again, I will simply type "tl;dr" because as I said I don't care but I can see how this may upset skinners, meshers, and even modders.

EDIT:
PREV! I will always come to your defense. Mods are sacred and most people don't defend modders as much because is it is hard to see code if the maps been changed and dinosaurs are now ice troopers!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Cyber Burn on January 22, 2009, 07:01:47 PM
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on January 22, 2009, 05:31:01 PM
Here's my thing: if you're making these things primarily for praise or recognition then maybe you're doing it for the wrong reasons. I make what I want to make and then I show it. Praise, if it happens, is nice but not necessary. I wanted to see a Silver Age Batman, Silver Age Captain Marvel and a Ted Kord Blue Beetle. There was some positive feedback but I would've made them anyway.

   I've really been trying to stay out of this debate. I haven't been able to download this yet (stupid dial-up), but hope to soon. I agree with Yellow Lantern, you make things that you want and then choose to share. You don't do it for recognition.
   Maybe to encourage the work of other skinners and skopers, a list of links to various websites could be added. This way, if someone likes a skin by an unfamiliar artist, they could find other skins by that artist. Personally, I like being able to use a variety of skins with the meshes I use, but that's just me. 
   With the beta, I could use characters from my main custom folder, and I hope that this feature is still there. I'm sorry that some people are upset with this release. I think that being able to participate in something like this by having some of my stuff included allows for my skins/skopes to be used by people who normally wouldn't have downloaded them.
   I'm not a very good skinner. I'm not a very good skoper. But I do appreciate the fact that someone appreciated my work enough to use in a mod.
   I know I'm rambling now, and I'm sorry. I just think that this mod was a huge project, and that it should be appreciated for what it is, someone's vision for the game that was shared with the community. Now I humbly back out of this discussion.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 07:13:52 PM
QuoteWoo woo woo, take that back. For the last year or so, I, as well as some others, have been creating complete characters. In fact, I can't remember the last time I released a skin without the skope mesh with it. If this was the heyday of skinning I would agree but it is simply not.

Unless you also include a hero file and customizations, than no, it's still not a complete character according to what I was trying to say.

QuoteIt takes away choice is one of the negatives of this project whether you see it or not. Honestly if I was a new modder and I wanted to jump right in, I would just download DCU, create a subdirect and make my own mod out of it and release it as either ezscript or add-on mod.

I can't possible think of a better way for a new modder to get his feet wet.  It's a lot better than what usually happens, trying to put together a mod from scratch and giving up because of the overwhelming amount of work involved.  Far better to get into it gradually, with something like this, then move into more complicated, made from scratch stuff later, which is what I believe would tend to happen.  As soon as you start tinkering with something like this, you start thinking, this is nice but I would do it this way, use this skin, add this ability, and so forth, so you move on to something completely your own.

Anyone else notice that this argument tends to be artists versus modders?  Well, partly artists versus modders and causual users to, but I think the former is a better way of looking at it.  It does show you that there is a different perspective on things depending on which end you are working on.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 07:37:02 PM
Ok I'm just going to answer cats' comment because honestly I like him and I like being devil's advocate but the rest of you expect lots of tl;dr's.  ;)

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 07:13:52 PM
Unless you also include a hero file and customizations, than no, it's still not a complete character according to what I was trying to say.
Why would I dictate to users how to use Superman or Super-Skrull? That is the same point IPS is making about this mod. It dictates to users/players this is what Superman looks like and here's what he does.  For the record, I use to add hero files with all my characters until I realized people don't care what I think Superman or Wiccan can do. They only care about how they think his powers work. The whole point is proven with us having a hero file section on the forum. Why would we even have a discussion about it if there is a hero file included with every skin/mesh?

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 07:13:52 PM
I can't possible think of a better way for a new modder to get his feet wet.  It's a lot better than what usually happens, trying to put together a mod from scratch and giving up because of the overwhelming amount of work involved.  Far better to get into it gradually, with something like this, then move into more complicated, made from scratch stuff later, which is what I believe would tend to happen.  As soon as you start tinkering with something like this, you start thinking, this is nice but I would do it this way, use this skin, add this ability, and so forth, so you move on to something completely your own.

Then why not release a generic mod for that purpose rather than a DCU mod? I'd tried my hand at modding (and I'm doing ok but I found out I'd rather skin) and I didn't use any other mod's code.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on January 22, 2009, 07:13:52 PM
Anyone else notice that this argument tends to be artists versus modders?  Well, partly artists versus modders and causual users to, but I think the former is a better way of looking at it.  It does show you that there is a different perspective on things depending on which end you are working on.

It's really not that and for the recording I'm not fighting. I honestly think if I was say Alex and a mod tool like this was out there it would upset me. All the hard work I did before or will do in the future is going to be put in the same category as ezscript mods that had everything laid out for them.

It's like if someone said I'm going to make a DCU psd file with all the pieces from other people's skin on different layers but I made these three master meshes that can be skoped into any DCU character you want. Why would I (a skinner who learned it the long and hard way) bother skinning anymore? The masses have essentially a Hero Maker for skins. You don't think that would be upsetting?

Also when is the Marvel one coming out? I might just download that one. :cool:
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 08:17:05 PM
Well, I'm done.  I've explained my work and my point of view as well as I am able.  I do have to say that I agree with Prev.  If you wanted to really oppose this, you should have done it three years ago.  You can't really say that there was no hope of me finishing it.  I put out the Beta (a compilation that WAS just skins/meshes/fx a few missions, and customizations) nearly a year and a half or two years ago.  It was public, it wasn't hidden, and it was released.  Unless something pertinent is brought up, I'm going to get on with the business of trying to makes something useful.  Maybe I'll start another thread for campaign feedback.  So far IPS is the only one who has asked me to remove content.  In the hopes that no-one else shares his feelings, I am going to continue working towards a 1.1 release.

AA, I imagine that Alex would be thrilled that people are able to tell stories and contribute to the community, where they were not able to before. 
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 22, 2009, 08:45:55 PM
Oh Jeez....
I was gonna stay out of this one, but Tutie had to go and bring up the mappack... CURSE YOU!!
I had a big long diatribe, but I pulled back, as this thing has just gone on too long and turned too ridiculous.
So I'll say my peace and move on.

For All of this back and forth going on, I think Benton's mod needs to be judged by a simple standard (as all mods should including the map pack):

As long as he got permission to use content, and didn't misrepresent what the content was going to be used for, then its a moot point. Its his mod, done his way. If you don't like it, or have some general issue with it. Don't play it. If you have a specific problem with it that pertains specifically to something you created or had a hand in, then PM him and resolve it (as he indicated he would remove anything that people felt was used inappropriately).

Using the public forum to carry out these general grievances does no one any good. It Turns away potential players when they see this kind of bickering when they were maybe just interested in playing this JLA thing they heard about. It hurts the creators because these kinds of issues create divides and bad feelings and general disinterest in continuing to mod over issues that really should be easy to overcome with a little communication.

....And that's all i got to say.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 09:20:25 PM
I would like to say, with all due respect, that one person can't speak for creators as a whole, especially if they haven't even asked for the input of many of these creators. I know I was never asked and I wonder what the input is of other currently active skinners, like Daglob or Blobula or Billdamn. I see the same vocal group speaks up about where they stand and how they are representing everyone.. but not everyone is of the same mind. This is a diverse group and everyone should keep that in mind.

If there are specific people who do not want their work out there in this context, then that's fine.. so be it. But don't take on a creator's crusade and speak for everyone else when they are just as able to speak up for themselves.

With that said, Benton.. I know you put a lot of work into this and this is most certainly a MOD, regardless of semantics. You did nothing wrong and I dislike that some people are treating you like you did. I've seen this same behavior before, like when Megatallica created his Dragonball Z skins, and it's very off-putting. This is the kind of thing that would turn people away from the site and not want to contribute.

I want to echo Goggles sentiment that this kind of debate, when it deals with specifics.. like IPS specifically not wanting his content added to the Mod.. should not be spoken of here and instead should be in private.

Perhaps there should be a skinner permission list akin to the list for meshers. It would help alleviate problems for these kind of issues in the future.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 09:40:22 PM
umm well I don't think IPS is trying simply to get his own material removed. I think that's the LEAST of what he expects.

I never dallied in any of the past debates over torrents and such but the impression I've gotten from people told me..  The MASS distribution of skins and meshes and so on was decided to be a definite no no. It was debated.. it was discussed.. it was argued. Bottom line from what I've been told, it was banned. Now here we have a man trying to accomplish a goal.. a mod...... but not just that.. he's got an epic concept in mind. Most people think of a mod in very simple terms, you make a story, you throw together the characters and background to make that story 3d. Then you release it.. that's what people expect of a mod.

  What you got here isn't just a mod, (yeah yeah blah blah debate that fact all you like) What you got here is an attempt to include EVERY character in a known universe. The attempt to throw enough material at people to fix so hopefully they do something with it. The mod didn't need all this extra material, it isn't part of the mod, it isn't necessary. What it is, is a circumvent of the "no no bad bad" torrent idea.. in a new form. Something that was turned down and has now been worked around. Personally, I couldn't care less because I was part of the folks who loved the FFhub which amounted to a torrent itself. Most people avoided the hub and it died. However I do recognize that this circumvent of the no torrent rule.. is by community law.. a bad thing.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: GogglesPizanno on January 22, 2009, 08:45:55 PM
Oh Jeez....
I know! I thought the same thing about myself when I started typing this.

Quote from: GogglesPizanno on January 22, 2009, 08:45:55 PM
Using the public forum to carry out these general grievances does no one any good. It Turns away potential players when they see this kind of bickering when they were maybe just interested in playing this JLA thing they heard about. It hurts the creators because these kinds of issues create divides and bad feelings and general disinterest in continuing to mod over issues that really should be easy to overcome with a little communication.
Why not? Because some people get more upset than others because of a minorities' opinion on this subject? I realize I had some valid counterpoints but it doesn't mean I actually agree. I honestly played devil's advocate because 1) no one likes to complain about something alone and 2) it's the opposite view of what I actually believe. So far the only person who actually feels strongly about this is IPS and Bent agreed to remove his work so I do not see why everyone is screaming "Skinners battling modders for a chance at superiority" when the truth is someone has an opinion the group doesn't like so we get all mad and start pointing fingers and being nasty but that's human. All non-human please do not weight in on this, you have no understanding of what is means to be upset with someone for not having your view.

Quote from: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 09:20:25 PM
If there are specific people who do not want their work out there in this context, then that's fine.. so be it. But don't take on a creator's crusade and speak for everyone else when they are just as able to speak up for themselves.
I think I was just putting the counterpoints up. As I said I don't even agree with them.

Quote from: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 09:20:25 PM
I've seen this same behavior before, like when Megatallica created his Dragonball Z skins, and it's very off-putting. This is the kind of thing that would turn people away from the site and not want to contribute.
I remember that and it wasn't as serious as you are making it out to be, bud.

Quote from: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 09:20:25 PM
I want to echo Goggles sentiment that this kind of debate, when it deals with specifics.. like IPS specifically not wanting his content added to the Mod.. should not be spoken of here and instead should be in private.

Perhaps there should be a skinner permission list akin to the list for meshers. It would help alleviate problems for these kind of issues in the future.
Some people were personally asked to chime in. Not my fault I have my own opinion and stance even if it is different than the one I defended.

Quote from: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 09:20:25 PM
Perhaps there should be a skinner permission list akin to the list for meshers. It would help alleviate problems for these kind of issues in the future.
Uhmm this isn't the first time something like this happened and that's why we have things called a readmes.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 09:46:43 PM
Quote from: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 09:40:22 PM
umm well I don't think IPS is trying simply to get his own material removed. I think that's the LEAST of what he expects.

I never dallied in any of the past debates over torrents and such but the impression I've gotten from people told me..  The MASS distribution of skins and meshes and so on was decided to be a definite no no. It was debated.. it was discussed.. it was argued. Bottom line from what I've been told, it was banned. Now here we have a man trying to accomplish a goal.. a mod...... but not just that.. he's got an epic concept in mind. Most people think of a mod in very simple terms, you make a story, you throw together the characters and background to make that story 3d. Then you release it.. that's what people expect of a mod.

  What you got here isn't just a mod, (yeah yeah blah blah debate that fact all you like) What you got here is an attempt to include EVERY character in a known universe. The attempt to throw enough material at people to fix so hopefully they do something with it. The mod didn't need all this extra material, it isn't part of the mod, it isn't necessary. What it is, is a circumvent of the "no no bad bad" torrent idea.. in a new form. Something that was turned down and has now been worked around. Personally, I couldn't care less because I was part of the folks who loved the FFhub which amounted to a torrent itself. Most people avoided the hub and it died. However I do recognize that this circumvent of the no torrent rule.. is by community law.. a bad thing.

I miss the Hub. :( I got so much stuff from there back in the day.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 09:49:03 PM
Quote from: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 09:46:43 PM
I miss the Hub. :( I got so much stuff from there back in the day.

Me too and people use to whine about that all the time because it was technically redistribution.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 09:45:03 PM
I remember that and it wasn't as serious as you are making it out to be, bud.

I think you misunderstand what I mean. It wasn't the severity of that specific situation, it was the actual 'accusation before understanding' sentiment that I have seen other times on this board. That kind of sentiment could cause people to not want to contribute to this site and I can understand that. I was referencing the Megatallica thread as only one instance of this.

Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 09:45:03 PM
Some people were personally asked to chime in. Not my fault I have my own opinion and stance even if it is different than the one I defended.

I'm not faulting you, or anyone, for general ideologies at all.. I was just saying when it comes to specific situations, like a specific skinner or mesher not wanting their content added to a particular project, that should be kept in PM's. That's all I meant. 

Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 09:45:03 PM
Uhmm this isn't the first time something like this happened and that's why we have things called a readmes.

But unfortunately the problems still persist. I think there's no harm in suggesting another idea to help diffuse future situations, y'know? :)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: tommyboy on January 22, 2009, 10:08:13 PM
DCUG WAS announced a long time back, and is not just a vast collection of content but also the stories, and code, and implementation of characters within the game engine. It's as much a "real" Mod as any other Mod ever was.
And it was always intended to be the DCUniverse, how could that be a small package, for pity's sake?
What would be the point of it if it didn't feature as many characters as possible?
It introduces some to characters they didn't know, or care about, and reminds others that it can be fun to play as X or Y.

In my LSH Mod, I included lots of "content" (ie meshes, skins and built in characters) that wasn't within the campaign missions because  A) Most of the stuff was to be used in the (as yet not done) second, third and fourth "chapters", and I'd rather just release small updates to one huge package than four hefty ones. And B) I wanted to include as many heroes and villains from the LSH Universe as I could, for Rumble Room play, which is what I mostly do. I'll play a Campaign Mod once or twice but the Rumble Room gets thousands of outings, and The More, The Merrier. That was my rationale. If people thought the Mod too big, or "just a collection of meshes and skins", they didn't have to download it. Same thing with DCUG.

Benton, you have my full support and gratitude. Other matters have prevented me from playing much, or commenting, but I have the Mod, and like what I've seen, Thank You.
I can sort of respect some points that have been made, I think some have some validity and are worth considering, but are much, much much too late, and others just wrong.
You can't tell him he has to include one mesh/skin/fx/voicepack by every creator. You can't say that by choosing certain skins and meshes he's damaging the community. Every Mod does that, are they ALL damaging the community?
You cannot tell him how may characters he may put in a Mod before it's "too many".
You can say "don't use my stuff", and that's fair enough. I'll fully support anyones right to say that.
But I cannot recall any other Mod ever getting criticized for being a "mix tape", and they all feature work from a variety of community contributors. So the "mix tape metaphor" is either going to have to be retrospectively and in future applied to every Mod that uses meshes/skins/FX that were not made specifically for it, or dropped.


Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 10:18:59 PM
tommy with all due respect this is "almost" a rerun of the old electro fx pack debacle. Yes Benton made a mod.. yes Benton is a great guy with wonderful intentions... but then he tossed in a TON of extra material that honestly is not part of the mod in hopes of encouraging something.. but it still breaks the same rule and sets a bad precedent. the rule is no big mass download packages. Benton did a torrent type release.. without having a torrent.. rule broken. Personally I never agreed to rule as I stated above.. but it's still a rule and keeps things like what went with electro from happening again.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: deano_ue on January 22, 2009, 10:20:36 PM
can some one tell me why my post was deleted
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 10:23:30 PM
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on January 22, 2009, 10:20:36 PM
can some one tell me why my post was deleted



For god sakes!!! Look at your name man!!! :banghead:
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Cyber Burn on January 22, 2009, 10:25:25 PM
   If people don't like me after this, then that's alright.

  Everyone has made their points, Benton agreed to drop IPS's work, I think we should drop this here. I'd hate for something to be said that couldn't be taken back. I'd also hate to see the community break up over this, I know it won't, but you never know. I think that this thread should be locked, and anything that anyone really needs to say, should be left said in private. Thank you.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 10:29:26 PM
but it's not a private matter. . it's a public community rule that was broken. It isn't settle until it's decided if that rule is to be recinded if so I say you should all go back and apologize to anybody else ever forced to follow it.. or have this fixed.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 22, 2009, 10:39:17 PM
Quotehow does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

Oh for peet's sake, could someone tell him specifically what the content is that he shouldn't have included, he can remove it and lets be done with this nonsense....
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 22, 2009, 10:41:06 PM
i made a mod based on rumble a couple of years ago.  it was nearly as big as dcug.  i think 2 ppl downloaded it.  nobody said boo, because it wasn't very good, and nobody downloaded it.
everyone is downloading this mod, and we have issues?  why issues over this and none over mine?
is it because this mod is successful?  jealousy over success?
i think any individual points you have made, ips, have been countered by various other ppl.  why ignore tommyboy?  and some of what cat said?  and other ppl.
i honestly don't think any rules have been broken.  what if he called it a rumble room mod?  would that be better?
and if someone doesn't want their work in the mod, just let bg know, and say it publicly.  i will personally delete anything on my hard drive.  like i did with xdud.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 10:43:07 PM
Quote from: GogglesPizanno on January 22, 2009, 10:39:17 PM
Quotehow does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

Oh for peet's sake, could someone tell him specifically what the content is that he shouldn't have included, he can remove it and lets be done with this nonsense....


YAY thank you okay according to rules any material that is no included in the actual mod..  as in the stories he created that required them.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 22, 2009, 10:47:27 PM
Quote


YAY thank you okay according to rules any material that is no included in the actual mod..  as in the stories he created that required them.



ok.  what about the skirmish missions?  they use a lot of characters.  the rumble rooms wouldn't be complete without them.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: tommyboy on January 22, 2009, 10:52:48 PM
Quote from: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 10:18:59 PM
tommy with all due respect this is "almost" a rerun of the old electro fx pack debacle. Yes Benton made a mod.. yes Benton is a great guy with wonderful intentions... but then he tossed in a TON of extra material that honestly is not part of the mod in hopes of encouraging something.. but it still breaks the same rule and sets a bad precedent. the rule is no big mass download packages. Benton did a torrent type release.. without having a torrent.. rule broken. Personally I never agreed to rule as I stated above.. but it's still a rule and keeps things like what went with electro from happening again.

"Almost" a rerun, except that Benton announced his intention well before execution, as far as I know he sought permission, and has a rationale for including a lot of "content", that it's all the DCU, all a playable part of what the Mod is intended to be.
My AvengersSpecial did much the same thing, as did my LSH Mod. Bearded and Furie's Rumble Mod did. Dannyboy's DC Mod did. Big Mods, lots and lots of characters and meshes and skins, many of the same ones you'll find in DCUG. That precedent, or "rule" is set already.
There is a difference between lumping everything in a torrent, or ditching all the readmes as Electro did, and putting together a Mod with a lot of characters. There is a difference between a big Content pack and a Mod. This IS a Mod.
You and I both sat on that Hub, we come from the same place as far as methods of distribution are concerned for our own work, I think (we don't mind).
I respect if others feel their work should not be included in Mods but they need to make that clear, and hopefully have and will.
The problem I have here with this "rule" is this;
How many characters/meshes/skins may I include in a Mod before I break the rule?
And who gets to decide that Benton, or I or anyone else has included "too much" in a Mod?
So what if my mod has a "story" that "requires" every single Marvel and DC character? Seriously, I have an Avengers/JLA Mod that isn't far off that, based on the comic books, it would probably dwarf the dcug with all the heroes/villains/costumes involved.
If it's the Will of the Community that some line has been crossed here, lets make a Poll, and have the Community vote. Or have the Admins decide or something. Because as it stands, I see no clear "rules" in this area.
I'll abide by a decision if there is one, even if I disagree, but I'm of the opinion that no rule is being broken here. That would be my vote.
I can see what you are saying, and even that you could be right, Vertex, but we may need to have this cleared up and clearly defined somehow.

Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 22, 2009, 11:01:45 PM
Quote from: ips on January 22, 2009, 10:46:47 PM
Quote from: GogglesPizanno on January 22, 2009, 10:39:17 PM
Quotehow does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

Oh for peet's sake, could someone tell him specifically what the content is that he shouldn't have included, he can remove it and lets be done with this nonsense....

you aren't paying attention to what's been posted. which is fine but there is no reason to post if you aren't man.

Quote from: Vertex on January 22, 2009, 10:43:07 PM


YAY thank you okay according to rules any material that is no included in the actual mod..  as in the stories he created that required them.

OK Pardon my ignorance here, Im not trying to keep this going, but I need some clarification for any possible stuff I may or may not release in the future.

But are you telling me that If I release a mod that the "community rules" say I can only include content that actually appears within the missions of the campaign of said mod?

When was this decided?

What if the said unused content was stuff I may intend to use at some point in the future, and the creator gave the go ahead and said that its use is ok. Shouldn't the creators approval trump the community agreed rules (of which I never knew about?)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 11:10:43 PM
Quote from: laughing paradox on January 22, 2009, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 22, 2009, 09:45:03 PM
Uhmm this isn't the first time something like this happened and that's why we have things called a readmes.

But unfortunately the problems still persist. I think there's no harm in suggesting another idea to help diffuse future situations, y'know? :)

And the final say in that was "BANNED" as I recalled, no offense to BG, but how is this different (with all the extra content wise).
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 11:43:59 PM
That's it.  This is over.  I'm officially asking the Admins to take some sort of action here.  I think voting on it as a community, or a ruling by the admins to solve this would be acceptable.  I don't believe that I have done anything wrong, nor that I have broken any "rule" established before I was a part of the community.  We have two people saying that I have broken a rule, and many more saying that I have not.  I have demonstrated my dedication to this project by pursuing it to this point, and I am not about to abandon it now.  I WILL be producing campaigns and missions that utilize the content that I have added, and I'm hoping that others will join me in this.  If others can add content into mods that they intend for future expansions, why should I not have the same ability?  As long as I still have permission from all of the creators whose work I use, I believe I am in the right, and that my efforts will help the community.

Quoteso the mod is the important thing. great. so what's the big deal? why won't you remove the stuff you are NOT using?! include it in any addons you do later if you ever do them. why are you making such a big deal about this?

I can only assume that you have not been paying attention, it is ALL the mod, the thousands of stories I've written for characters in the strings.txt, every single power description, every single short description, the hundreds of characters created in every detail and the limitless potential that they bring.  That is why I won't delete the "extra" content, because. it. isn't. extra.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Cyber Burn on January 22, 2009, 11:48:48 PM
Quote from: ips on January 22, 2009, 10:30:35 PM
Quote from: Cyber Burn on January 22, 2009, 10:25:25 PM
  If people don't like me after this, then that's alright.

  Everyone has made their points, Benton agreed to drop IPS's work, I think we should drop this here. I'd hate for something to be said that couldn't be taken back. I'd also hate to see the community break up over this, I know it won't, but you never know. I think that this thread should be locked, and anything that anyone really needs to say, should be left said in private. Thank you.

how does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

   How, specifically, does the DCUG keep other artists work from being discovered? If someone really wants their work to get attention, well...that's what the "Skins" section of the forum is for.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: M25 on January 22, 2009, 11:49:38 PM
Banning this kind of mod sets a dangerous precedent.

The mod has original content both in the expression of the characters and stories included.  More importantly, it allows people to tell and share their own stories within the scope of the mod.  It fosters creativity.  

I've tried to make it easy to write the stories with EZ script, but I always knew it would never really take off unless there was a sandbox to play in.

Further, I suspect people will customize this mod to their own liking because it is a sandbox.  They'll change powers, fx, skins and even meshes.  They'll add new characters or new versions of existing characters.  They should be encouraged to do so.  The community can even thrive on things like this, if it chooses to.




Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: President Raygun on January 23, 2009, 12:10:33 AM
Hey everybody, i'm fairly new here ( been haunting this site for almost a year now ). First off I'd like to say that I'm  a player not  a creator/ artist and I sympathize with IPS' view that (new) players may not seek out other content if presented with so much of it at one time, that being said,I have to say (and this is no knock on BG) the the DCUG is not the end all be all of dc related content.When I 1st started playing this game and discovered that mods were great way to get skins & meshes I thought "Great", but as my love for this game grew I realized I had to seek out more and thats what drew me to this site. I think if the players have even half the passion for the game that you the artists do I don't think they'll settle for just whats in this mod. I know i didn't settle for the original DCU ;I've spent hours searching for websites, going thru yahoo groups, even the internet archive. I've practically downloaded everything I could find even if I didn't need it. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't believe We (the players) will stop requesting dc content because of this mod, just as I don't believe You ( the artists ) will stop creating it (whether it's requested or not) If a player's gotten to this site they have to know there's more out there than just the DCUG.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: tommyboy on January 23, 2009, 12:16:22 AM
For the Record, any of my Meshes, keyframes or skins may be used in any Mod, including DCUG, as main or "extra" content, as long as the readmes are present, or credit is given.
I'd be a little less happy about a giant torrent or Content pack, but so long as I get my credit, would not hunt you down like a dog.
Might help to have a Mod Use Permission Thread like the Nifskope one.
That would establish clear ground rules for usage.

Which we now seem to need.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 23, 2009, 01:23:25 AM
Quote from: BentonGrey on January 22, 2009, 11:43:59 PM
That's it.  This is over.  I'm officially asking the Admins to take some sort of action here.  I think voting on it as a community, or a ruling by the admins to solve this would be acceptable.  I don't believe that I have done anything wrong, nor that I have broken any "rule" established before I was a part of the community. 
Take some action? Unfortunately action was taken and that rule was created. For you to say it is "unfair" would make the rule only apply to those who action was taken against i.e. Electro and a few others who wanted it.

I personally think that if the mods are cool with you ignoring rules, than I should be able to. I love using foul language but I can't and I wouldn't dream of asking "I know there is a rule but could you allow it for me because I've giving so much and worked so hard".

Also it would destroy this board if the rule was ignored for just you. And if this repackaging of content is cool than why aren't torrents or even the hub? I never had an actual problem with any of those ideas. But if you post a torrent, your banned according to the rules.  Hell, why not let people start releasing skopes of meshes that aren't allowed as well. Why don't we just ignore every rule that was established because we don't like them anymore.

Quote from: M25 on January 22, 2009, 11:49:38 PM
Banning this kind of mod sets a dangerous precedent.

This precedent was set years ago unfortunately with the Electro's club and fx pak, which even though some people said yeah sure, was banned because he essentially got everything he could find and was organizing it for easy access. Which is the actual problem here. It's no the actual mod. It's the additional content that is packaged along with it.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 23, 2009, 01:47:33 AM
I thought the electro thing was more about him packaging up mass amounts of effects AND editing them without permission (kitbashing textures etc....) but its been a while so I may be remembering that wrong.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 23, 2009, 01:55:13 AM
Quote from: GogglesPizanno on January 23, 2009, 01:47:33 AM
I thought the electro thing was more about him packaging up mass amounts of effects AND editing them without permission (kitbashing textures etc....) but its been a while so I may be remembering that wrong.

That and reposting meshes, skins, fxs, and herofiles in yahoo groups and the such.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 23, 2009, 02:40:42 AM
so...we agree there is no comparison between this mod and whatever electro did.
i think the vote needs to be what the definition of a mod is.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Vertex on January 23, 2009, 02:44:51 AM
Quote from: bearded on January 23, 2009, 02:40:42 AM
so...we agree there is no comparison between this mod and whatever electro did.
i think the vote needs to be what the definition of a mod is.


I agree to no such thing, and I say so as one who actually likes the idea of what Benton has done.. but knowing full well it breaks a long standing rule that was made to stop people like electro when he did what he did. Many of us might like what Benton has done.. many may not like it.. but make no mistake, to do this the rule should have been changed.. not circumvented to get what someone wanted. Benton is a great guy, has all the best intentions but I know when the spirit of a rule is broken and this was just a reinvention of something that was ruled forbidden.. hidden under the umbrella of a real mod he made.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 02:51:10 AM
I'd like to make something clear, again.  I had never heard of this rule until IPS brought it up awhile ago.  That being said, I still don't believe that I have broken it, and I would very much like to have the matter put to the test.  I will not be censured by one or two people, but if the community agrees that this is what happened, that would be something else.  I still have not been contacted by any other content creators, and many of them have come here in support of me.  I ask again that we put an end to this by some method other than arguing about it in endless circles. 
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: tommyboy on January 23, 2009, 03:46:07 AM
Quote from: ips on January 23, 2009, 03:12:27 AM
benton you were part of the community when the electro thing happened. it was more than 3 years ago now. probably around 5.

this isn't some sort of rocket science. it's common sense that we don't have the right to redistribute each other's work unless it is expressly given. that's what electro did. he collected everyone's fx and repackaged them as his own group's fx pack and added some of his own stuff to it also and then hosted it privately to exclusive group members and made it available to the public. and then he said "no way, i don't care" and refused to remove the content. he effectively did the same thing that was done here. we just happen to like benton more. if it was electro doing this or anyone like vlad or catmanexe, he'd be banned already.

we don't need new permissions lists we just need to follow the existing guidelines that we have had. we have got along perfectly well understanding how to respect each other up until now. why make another list in 2 years (if there is a community left), when the next guy puts in some hard work to make a name for himself and breaks the rules, we'll be doing this all over again.

no one is saying this is some malicious thing. it's just a mistake - you thought it would be fine to include this stuff if it was part of a mod because we do that all the time, but it turns out it's not ok because of how it was executed. admit it's a mistake and remove the content you aren't using. it's that simple.

we could throw around the arguement of the sandbox to play in some more... but take out those meshes and skins you aren't using, and the character dats and templates are still setup for anyone to pop in their own choice of mesh and skin. the sandbox still exists. you said yourself the majority of work was the modding not the collection of the content. so, why are we still having this conversation?!
We are still having this conversation because the "community", Benton or Barack Obama don't get to decide how MY work is distributed.
That is why we DO need a permissions list, not self-appointed arbiters of what the "rules" are, or what their "spirit" is.
I've said he can use my stuff, so have others. THAT is now "the rules".

I appreciate that you guys genuinely believe that you are acting in accord with the best interests of the community, and abiding by it's established practices. I even respect that. Under slightly different circumstances I'd agree with you.

However, this thread makes it very clear that the old "rules" as they stood were ill-defined and not written down anywhere.
Now, anyone like you who wants out of this Mod can say so, and their wishes will be respected.
As will mine. Because anyone can go and read what I, the person who owns that work of mine, stipulates about it's use. It's clearly stated and unambiguous, I think.

We needed a nifSkope permissions list.
We needed a mod use permissions list.
We now have both.
I'm sorry if some feel some sacred pact has been broken here, but I never signed up to it in the first place, and it's never been written down, or until now applied to any other Mod.
For my part, I've said my piece and done what I felt I needed to do. I'm taking a 24 hour cooling off period from this.
I don't think I'm going to help any more by posting more in the near future.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 23, 2009, 03:54:03 AM
let's all be friends and calmly come up with a solution instead of taking sides and being devisive.
like...make a campaign that uses all the meshes, like avengers special!
or make mesh packs that go with the different campaigns.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 04:12:20 AM
I for one was never part of the discussions, or whatever else happened with Electro.  I don't know, maybe I was writing my thesis or something at the time, but for whatever reason I guess I wasn't around.  I also wasn't around for any of these discussions about content torrents (which my mod is not, I will state for the millionth time, and your saying it is does not necessarily make it so) hindering creativity.  All I know is that I do not believe that my work will change human nature.  People who are going to contribute and pursue new things will do so, whether it exists or not, but it very well may encourage people to get their feet wet modding.

The difference between Electro and I is that, unlike him, I DO have permission.  Whether or not YOU agree with how I got it, or whether it is still valid or not doesn't really matter, as I have now removed my mod's previous iteration from its hosting site, so your work is not being distributed.  What matters is, do the other creators agree that I still have permission.  So far, everyone has.  I haven't heard back from a few content creators yet, but they definitely still have the opportunity to pull their work from my project.  It is their right, and one I will respect, especially since they have been minding their own business this entire time.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Champion 2 of 11 on January 23, 2009, 04:30:58 AM
Some people are  sooooo throwed off thats all Im saying...Its a game people no one is making money off of! It's just for fun!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: bearded on January 23, 2009, 04:44:18 AM
seriously.  i've got a mod.
fury gave me permission years ago to use rumble as i liked.  and i've mentioned to BG using his DCU as a base.
rumble needs all those characters to work.  one of the reasons i'm so excited about it.
now all i have to do is convert it.  will do.
rumble also has a lot of custom code from me adding new stuff.  give me a day or 3 and all the meshes will be used.  and i'm not just saying this now, i discussed it with BG a long time ago.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Podmark on January 23, 2009, 05:12:55 AM
I just want to point that we don't actually have a RULE about mass content releases, I just checked. We may have a unspoken rule about it (I honestly had no idea), but if you want to enforce it get it written down somewhere. It is far too easy for people to have missed these things, or be newcomers. This is why I created and maintain the nifskope permissions list - to avoid problems like this.

I really don't want to get too deep into this, I honestly don't have the time for it but here we go:

The concern of a mass content release screwing over other creators is probably not significant. The type of people who would be getting it are either a) People who lost their old content, b) new users who need to get caught up or c) people who don't care about the community at all and just want to play the game (these people shouldn't matter to us as they won't be posting here anyway). I really can't think of many others who'd even want such a thing in it's entirety, and individual meshes, skins etc can be acquired much easier.

Any member who sticks around or is already a member of our community who gets the mass content package is likely to come across the still active content available, unless they're only hanging around in general which probably means they aren't interested anyway which makes them again irrelevant to that discussion. So even if a content pack is all C6, if they come here there is every chance they'll discover AA, IPS, Megatallica etc and the rest of the active skinners. Old skinners/meshers etc is an entirely different thing especially if they're not actively hosted anywhere. But that's not even really a content pack issue, I mean how many newbies are going to know about Gryphon or Volt?

Now this might mean more if we were a larger more active community, but we're a small shrinking one with probably no hope of getting significantly larger. This website is basically our only hub for content and discussion and excluding yahoo groups we have very limited content sites. There is so much content that is dispersed or unavailable that a mass download pack of some kind would actually be quite helpful to many people.  

A content pack could help bring in new fans by cutting out the painstaking search to find meshes and skins you want. Stuff like that can turn off newbies. I can't see a pack affecting current members. On the other hand a content pack increases the likeness of someone just grabbing the pack and leaving never to return again, and some of those people might have stuck around had they been forced to come here and find stuff. I have no way of determining which of the two is more likely in our situation so I'll leave it like that.

There are certainly permission issues involved with such a release but presumably those don't apply here as Benton has acquired said permission either directly or indirectly based on the read mes. (the argument that the permissions in the read me didn't account for this only applies on case by case basis - for example the current wording of my read me allows for this situation).

If we were to allow a content pack the stipulations I would put on it would be that it list the address of FR and encourages downloaders to join here, and also the addresses of as many active content sites as possible, encouraging the downloader to check out those works and keep an eye out for new stuff. Permission, either direct, or implicit based on readme files would be required to place stuff in such a pack, and I would probably exclude newer works and stuff that is easily available on active websites (yahoo groups do not count). And of course credit must be listed for all content.

This is all in general about a content pack release, I'll discuss Benton's mod specifically shortly in a new post.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 23, 2009, 05:34:00 AM
Quote from: tommyboy on January 23, 2009, 03:46:07 AM
We are still having this conversation because the "community", Benton or Barack Obama don't get to decide how MY work is distributed.

WTF does Obama have to do with this. You guys just took this to a level that his actually ticked me off.  I may be drunk but that is it I'm done with this board.

Later peeps, HF will be updated but dont except me to report updates here.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Podmark on January 23, 2009, 05:37:54 AM
Quote from: AfghanAnt on January 23, 2009, 05:34:00 AM
Quote from: tommyboy on January 23, 2009, 03:46:07 AM
We are still having this conversation because the "community", Benton or Barack Obama don't get to decide how MY work is distributed.

WTF does Obama have to do with this. You guys just took this to a level that his actually ticked me off.  I may be drunk but that is I'm done with this board.

Later peeps, HF will be updated but dont except me to report updates here.

See this is why it sucks everytime we have our annual wars.
ARRGH!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Shazam on January 23, 2009, 08:33:08 AM
I believe there are those here that need to get a reality check. You need to listen to yourselves. This community will soon be a thing of the past, because you're all set on destroying it yourselves.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Gremlin on January 23, 2009, 09:14:19 AM
Quote from: Shazam on January 23, 2009, 08:33:08 AM
I believe there are those here that need to get a reality check. You need to listen to yourselves. This community will soon be a thing of the past, because you're all set on destroying it yourselves.

Seconded. Thoroughly seconded. This is hurting everyone, even people unconnected with the project, and needs to stop.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Cyber Burn on January 23, 2009, 09:20:05 AM
   When I first started playing  :ffvstr:, Flash_22798 had given me all of his back-up disks with FF content. I'm talking meshes, skins, mods, etc, both from other creators, as well as stuff that he did. I was basically given a "mass content file" that had almost every character that I could ask for in one shot. At no time did I draw the conclusion that I was set for life or that I had no reason to return to these boards. If anything, it gave me a curiosity to find out what else was out there, to check out other creators, to check out original characters, and an opportunity to belong to something where I could escape from everyday stress.
 This whole debate has been really frustrating, I think that there's always going to be differences in opinion between members, but there comes a point when you have to ask yourself, "Do I really need to come here just to acquire added stress?" I'm personally in a position to where I just can't handle any more stress, and can't think of any reason to add to anyone else's stress levels either. Maybe it would be beneficial to take some time away from the boards, cool off a bit, and then be able to return (hopefully) refreshed. If not, it's just a game.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Johnny Patches on January 23, 2009, 11:17:06 AM
(Episode 3472 of the Epic Saga continues the battle for Cobra Castle!)
Munch munch Munch munch  :popcorn2  Munch munch Munch
                     ;)
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: The Hitman on January 23, 2009, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: Gremlin on January 23, 2009, 09:14:19 AM
Quote from: Shazam on January 23, 2009, 08:33:08 AM
I believe there are those here that need to get a reality check. You need to listen to yourselves. This community will soon be a thing of the past, because you're all set on destroying it yourselves.

Seconded. Thoroughly seconded. This is hurting everyone, even people unconnected with the project, and needs to stop.

Third...ed? Yeah, I'm barely a content provider, and I'm gettin' razzled by some of these responces.

So, to double check, this all boils down to "the magic line" between a mod and a mass downloader, right? Because, as I read it, Benton went all out trying to get permission from everyone's content he used. So permission's not the issue.

On the one hand, we have folks saying it's good for the community, that it'll garner creativity, and overall be a boon to the community. These are primarily the folks that see this as a mod.

On the other hand, we have folks that see this as a noting more than a thinly- veiled "mass- downloader" and believe that this will kill the interest in other's content, which, in a community this small, is never a good thing.

(And on a third hand, we have Johnny Patches watching G. I. Joe or something.)

Does that sum it up? Feel free to correct me (as long as youall don't jump all ove my case).

Anyways, I think we need to take into consideration who will be downloading this... "project" (and I say project as to not tick off the overlords). The vast majorty of us that still play the game are, in some way, shape, or form, content providers. I have to ask- how many of you have multiples of the same character that you use. I don't mean varient costumes and such, but the same character done by two or three or four different skinners/meshers? Has that stopped you from using similar content?

What I'm getting at is, most of us know that when one skin is done, unless it's an obscure character, that skin is not the end- all for the character. That would be silly.

It's the same here. Just because Bent's project has a Batman in it would never stop me from checking out other fine folks' Batmen (Batman's? Can you plural Batman?) 95% of us get that. The other 5% are folks that don't give a hoot about the community and will do whatever they want anyways.

So, in a long- winded and very confusing and backward way, I'm saying that I agree with Bent on this one. I think that as long as he had permission from every content provider, he's in the clear.

Now, everyone can chew me out, and tell me I'm wrong, 'cause let's face it, every time I post something more that "Happy Birthday" or "Look great" someone usually does.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 03:37:33 PM
As far as I can see IPS, there is still no "we," just you.  It isn't an us versus them thing, it is a you versus them thing.  Every content creator I have talked to, and I have talked to a good portion of them by now, is not against this.  Some of them are concerned, some are afraid that this mod could be misused, but even more of them are hopeful that it will garner creativity.  Still, none of them have told me that they don't think I should release it, or that I should bow to your demands.  There is no "we," so please stop pretending that there is, and stop being so dramatic. 

Someone suggested that the readme for the DCUG include info about the remaining content sites in the FF community, as well as links to FR.  This was something that (well, at least to link to FR) I had consciously avoided doing before, because I didn't want someone reporting my project as copyright infringement and that getting back to the community here.  Still, if the community is willing to take that (hopefully) minor risk, I would be happy to include that kind of info in the readme.  I'd actually be happy to include it in a cutscene in the mod itself, as well.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 23, 2009, 04:03:18 PM
While I gave you permission it doesn't mean I don't think aspect of your mod aren't breaking rules. I.E. IPS isn't alone. While I may not like the rules I think if you break one, you should break them all.

I can't wait until everyone gets random!
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: steamteck on January 23, 2009, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: ips on January 23, 2009, 03:40:17 PM
hey mr soap box please don't call me dramatic.

it's not a ME thing. if you think that, you haven't taken stock of the situation properly.


I know I've got no gravitas but I  hope you'll listen and enlighten me/us. I really would like to see this community strife disappear.

Ok, fair enough, But its certainly not any not the creators on the mod permission thread.But putting aside What are the fans like myself doing so much differently than other communities that fosters resentment. If we don't make anything what can we do other than praising, giving a little donation now and then. I always feel really excited about new stuff and try to say so.

Modders are a different beast than fans and are creators also seems to me. In other communities, meshes skins are often included in mods with the creators permission. I understand you feel the DCUG creates a monopoly so that's a separate issue. You big guns will have to hash that out. Believe me I understand!

I can see how scoping could cause tension but again they're producing something even if not totally original content. They are  not just fans IMO. Obviously caution and respect is needed there and I have seen some tension but also seen people genuinely don't want to disrespect anyone.

What do think the fans need to do? I may be missing something but I don't see anything different than in other modding communities I've been around. If somehow I/we could make the creators happier I'm sure we'd like to.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 23, 2009, 04:51:11 PM
Quote from: steamteck on January 23, 2009, 04:47:52 PM
... But its certainly not any not the creators on the mod permission thread.But putting aside What are the fans like myself doing so much differently than other communities that fosters resentment. If we don't make anything what can we do other than praising, giving a little donation now and then. I always feel really excited about new stuff and try to say so.

The difference is there are rule, man! Rules that should be followed or you will be punish! WHERE IS THE MOTHER frelling PUNISHMENT!


EDIT:
frelling? What does that even mean!?! I hate the frelling censorship on this board.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: billdamn22 on January 23, 2009, 05:24:05 PM
I just want to say that these arguments that happen from time to time are the main reasons I take long sabbaticals from this forum. I have been a member here for close to 6 years and I have never heard of this "rule" of mass distribution. If it does exist, it should be posted under rules and regulations. Not everyone who is a member knows of the inner workings of why this member was banned or what they did in the first place.
I will now go back into the shadows and observe from the sidelines as usual.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Previsionary on January 23, 2009, 05:26:00 PM
I was going to post a long post...but I'm not. This thread is bothering me. It has every component possible that made me jaded with this community. Almost every trope...right here...this thread. Discouraging and reminds me as to why I'm nowhere near as active as I used to be.

I don't know where all the "VS." things came from. It's not a versus issue. It's a community problem now. Keep it that way.

This argument shouldn't have gone on this long. The positive thing that came from it...FR was actually active again. Good job. Moving on. The simple solution for everyone involved was to come to a simple compromise. A compromise that everyone could agree with and benefit from. I don't know why that conclusion was skirted around on for so long, but that should have been the finale. You really want to benefit the community...you sometimes make compromises. Fact. That's the way it is.

So this is to you, BG. What compromises are you willing to make with your work? As you can see, the way it is currently set up is causing negative waves. Time to middle-line 'em, eh? It's no longer about what you want...you have to do it for the community now if you really want them--us--to have and play with it as a base. And if no compromises can be made...I'm at the point now where I'd rather not see it at all. I'm burnt out on the mod and this thread--and I haven't even played it yet. That's how messed up this problem is.

And if need be...let's make a set of rules please. What Electro did years ago doesn't fully apply to BG. There're many variables involved. FR is "now" the hub of the FF community...so it should also contain what is expected somewhere on the site. That's my thinking.

And yes, this may be a little bolder than I usually am...but I don't even care anymore. Just find a conclusion and move the heck on.

Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Courtnall6 on January 23, 2009, 05:59:49 PM
Sorry for not adding my 2 cents earlier but there was a whole lot to catch up on.

I must admit the DCUG mod had me confused. I thought it was a complete story mod with every character being used and not a massive downloadable resource. I commend Benton for trying to create something for this community for the simple fact that I'm surprised we're all still here. Freedom Force is old. We're still playing it due to all the creators that have left and the ones that have stuck around. I keep skinning because it's fun and very rewarding (choosing to start skinning for this game is directly responsible for me meeting Zapow and working on Honor Brigade...which lead to going to World Wizard Chicago 3 times and eating pizza with Gail Simone :blink:).

I can see how this mod would hurt other creators. I knew Benton was using some of my skins...hell I was planning to update my Hawkman/girl skins plus adding Thanagar soldiers for it...but didn't have the time. It would be very disappointing to me if a player downloads the mod and doesn't bother to look for other people skins to use because mine are "standard". There are talented creators here who deserve to have there work appreciated. For this kind of mod it would have been better to include as many different creator works as he could squeeze in...or none at all.

If Benton does not want to remove any unused content for his mod than he should, at the very least, "spread the love" as they say and vary the creator content more....don't focus on 3 or 4 skinners for example...get every skinner's DC work in there. If he used my Superman say...then don't use my Batman or Wonder Woman...go with Ultimate Evil's, or AA's, or any of the other hundreds of Batman and Wonder Woman skins out there. Let the modder who is planning to make a full story mod choose who's skins to hunt down. Let the player comb through all this fantastic work we've done and select what works for them. I remember that being the most fun when I first started playing...going from site to site gathering all the skins (it was just skins at the time) I could find and testing them all.

In the end I would hate to see anyone leave over this discussion. We are a very small community that can't handle many more losses.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 06:21:05 PM
You're right Prev, absolutely right, this should never have gone on this long.  I do want to benefit the community, so I'm walking away.  This isn't about the community, it is about one or two people dictating to the rest of us what is right and wrong based on something no one can agree on.  So, no compromise, no knuckling under, no mod.  If I thought it would solve the problem, I could throw together a few simple Skirmish mission in which you faced waves of characters, thereby "using" all of that content that is just sitting there, completely useless, unless you happen to know how to use the Rumble Room.  The catch is, that won't solve the problem, because it would still have "too many" skins and meshes according to our self appointed mother, and paranoia about what this might mean seems to be the driving force behind much of this nonsense.  As far as gutting the DCUG, the other "compromise" suggested, it would change the entire dynamic of what I have been trying to do.  If this isn't the DC "Universe" anymore, than it isn't what I started out to make, and it isn't really what I want to spend my time on.  I'm not willing to fight anymore, I'm tired, and I've got better things to do with my time.  I am sorry, because I know the community, the real community, and not an amorphous "we" used to shove a single point of view down all of our collective throats, has been incredibly supportive of my project.  I can't tell you how many PM's I've gotten thanking me for my work and expressing outrage about this thread.  Thank you all.  

C6, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, and eventually, everything would have been used.  I don't have the energy at this point to go hunting through my collection and switching out skins because something might happen, because some lazy soul might not engage in the community the way we have.  Yeah, my mod may have more C6 than other things, but that is because I made it for myself, and I like those skins.  It also contains the work of TONS of lesser known skinners who have generously contributed content.  If anything, I would hope it would have encouraged people to explore, rather than to stagnate.

I started this for myself, and I wanted to share it with the community because I believed it would help us.  I started it because I wanted to give back some small portion of the incredible enjoyment and entertainment that it has given me.  I shall continue it for myself, and I'm sorry I won't be sharing the rest of it.  This is not an "I hate you all and I'm leaving" post.  I'll still be around...but maybe not for a few days.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Champion 2 of 11 on January 23, 2009, 06:30:28 PM
Hey everyone BentonGrey chose the meshes skins he liked the most to go into this, whatever it is! why be mad at him its what he likes like I said its just a game. There is alot of skinners, meshers, fx makers, skopers, and modders out here and people are gonna like who they like. Why trip! I like seeing everyones work doesnt mean I have to use everyones work! And I dont believe BentonGrey ment any harm. ^_^
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Figure Fan on January 23, 2009, 06:34:48 PM
WOW

Okay, before anyone strikes me from their high horse, I just read through every post in this discussion since January 18.

First of all, and this is directed at IPS: How does including extra content in the mod--directly used or not--screw over creators? Last I checked, I had a brain and free will, which allows me to seek out alternative content besides what's included in the mod download. If I don't like, say, a particular skin or mesh, I'm well aware that there are alternatives by other artists. This is a lousy point. Also, you seem to be toting this argument that all content is of equal quality in the community, and this is simply not true. Without naming names, the sad truth of that matter is that some content is simply just not as good as other content, and that people are naturally going to flock to what they like best, which just so happens to be what a lot of people like best. This decision is entirely subjective, and some people prefer different content, but we all know that certain creators end up getting a bigger slice of the 'download pie'. If I were still an active skinner, I wouldn't expect my work to be getting bundles of attention. If someone likes something I've done, then they are free to pursue, download, and use it in their game. Otherwise, I don't regulate what they 'should and 'should not' look to as alternatives.

AA--you know that we all enjoy your skinning work, and eagerly check your skins thread for updates. Don't feel so frustrated by all of this. Regardless of whether or not other work is included in this mod--or any mod for that matter--there's still going to be posters like me (and countless others) who know your work specifically and who will use it in their game. You're an amazing artist, bud.

C6--When you post in these discussions, you pretty much command attention. I agree with you that including a plentiful selection of artists' works is a good idea, but I don't feel that it is required. I think there are plenty of users who, like you (and me, apparently) will look through the various content sites and pick and choose their favorites. This is, as you mention, part of the fun of it.

Benton--I understand what you're trying to do here. I think it's a good idea, and have felt this way for the entire time you've been working on this. I know that you aren't evil, or out to destroy the sanctity of the community. To believe so is being dramatic, put simply.

I wasn't going just let this annual war of ours pass without saying SOMETHING. I just think that channeling the creatives of the community and seeking to defend them is somewhat silly, in a sense, seeing as how we all don't feel threatened by the release of a mod.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Ares_God_of_War on January 23, 2009, 07:05:56 PM
I'm going to preface this by saying I respect every creator that has been in this thread and probably have multiple skins from just about everyone here. My train of thought on this issue is basically "where is Benton advertizing his Mod?" Save for the actual download I believe everything has been on this website. I'm pretty sure that any searching for this mod would bring about 5 or 10 hits to this site. People are curious and if they are looking for content I am pretty sure they would search around the website. Me, when I find a forum I usually go around and poke a bit just to see whats going on. I personally believe for every random person who just downloads this mod and nothing else there would be another 4 or 5 who poke around and find all sorts of new things they like.

I can understand the frustration some of the content providers feel. I am not very artistic or handy with paintshop otherwise I would be making stuff as well. Because of that I do not have the sense of pride in the work I would be doing where someone like IPS who does make quality work would.
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Courtnall6 on January 23, 2009, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: Champion 2 of 11 on January 23, 2009, 06:30:28 PM
Hey everyone BentonGrey chose the meshes skins he liked the most to go into this, whatever it is! why be mad at him its what he likes like I said its just a game. There is alot of skinners, meshers, fx makers, skopers, and modders out here and people are gonna like who they like. Why trip! I like seeing everyones work doesnt mean I have to use everyones work! And I dont believe BentonGrey ment any harm. ^_^

I'm not mad and I know he didn't mean any harm. I don't care when a modder creating a full campaign mod uses a majority of someones work...it's their "comic book" and the more uniformed the better(I just switch them to my skins anyway :P)....but Benton's mod is more of a "base mod". It probably would have been better received if he released the DCUG base mod alone with a variety of work...then release his JLA campaign separately with whichever skins/meshes he wants.

QuoteC6--When you post in these discussions, you pretty much command attention. I agree with you that including a plentiful selection of artists' works is a good idea, but I don't feel that it is required. I think there are plenty of users who, like you (and me, apparently) will look through the various content sites and pick and choose their favorites. This is, as you mention, part of the fun of it.

I'm not worried about the percentage of people that do look for more content...just about the percentage that won't.



Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: Figure Fan on January 23, 2009, 09:06:40 PM
Quote from: ips on January 23, 2009, 06:47:37 PM
Quote from: Figure Fan on January 23, 2009, 06:34:48 PM
First of all, and this is directed at IPS: How does including extra content in the mod--directly used or not--screw over creators? Last I checked, I had a brain and free will, which allows me to seek out alternative content besides what's included in the mod download. If I don't like, say, a particular skin or mesh, I'm well aware that there are alternatives by other artists. This is a lousy point. Also, you seem to be toting this argument that all content is of equal quality in the community, and this is simply not true. Without naming names, the sad truth of that matter is that some content is simply just not as good as other content, and that people are naturally going to flock to what they like best, which just so happens to be what a lot of people like best. This decision is entirely subjective, and some people prefer different content, but we all know that certain creators end up getting a bigger slice of the 'download pie'. If I were still an active skinner, I wouldn't expect my work to be getting bundles of attention. If someone likes something I've done, then they are free to pursue, download, and use it in their game. Otherwise, I don't regulate what they 'should and 'should not' look to as alternatives.

it's not a lousy point. your statement is the answer to your own question. like kkohoho you proved my point for me. in fact i agree not all content is of equal quality and because of that selecting c6 (for example) stuff exclusively means lesser known (read into that term as you want) skinners, meshers etc work will never be found when otherwise it may have.

Haha! IPS aka "the statement devourer". And yes, it is a lousy point.

Just because one mod is released doesn't mean the world of custom content for Freedom Force is DEAD. If anything, you're insulting the intelligence and tastes of everyone who downloads it and plays the game. Believe it or not, even new players are capable of searching for content beyond the mod. We were new once, remember? Lesser known creators' work WILL be found, and life WILL go on beyond Benton's DCU mod. I know..scary huh?

Anyway, the creation of this mod and the selection of whatever content that goes into it is ultimately up to Benton, and of course the creators who gave him permission to use their works. Not every act of kindness on these boards has to one of supreme democratic political correctness. Benton didn't do anything wrong. He just decided to share something that he created, respectfully and within reason, with the rest of us. I'm a lessor known creator, and this does not have any sort of negative effect on me. Do you really think that having more obscure content included in the mod will stop people from putting their own preferred content into the game? If so, you're only fooling yourself. Believe it or not, trying to force people to download more obscure content won't necessarily make them like obscure content. I touched on this in my first post. You know, the one that actually didn't feed your argument?
Title: Re: DCUG - Released!
Post by: daglob on January 23, 2009, 09:21:50 PM
Actually, I had a comment. Looking back at it, it wasn't very useful and could have been harmful, so...

never mind.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: USAgent on January 23, 2009, 10:40:26 PM
I should of replied a few pages ago, but after seeing Benton give it up, I feel I need to voice my opinions on this matter as well.  I don't want to single anybody out but there is no doubt that IPS is leading the charge against Benton and his mod and most likely any comments we have that are for Benton are most likely gonna be against IPS unfortunatly.   So anyway.....  To bring up a something that has been said before, Benton has had this project going on for years, and has had many threads talking about his project and anybody who followed them knew he was going to have extra characters available for us to play with in the Rumble Room, plus he released a Beta version of it as well along time ago, but nobody had any issues at all with his old threads or the Beta.
I am one who can't see how by having extra characters in the mod is going to hurt the community at all (it might be because I am a player and not a creator) Since this community is so small anymore, we all know where to get skins, who's sites to visit, and what we like, I guarantee by him having extra characters in his mod will not cause anybody to stop coming to FR to check out any new skins/meshes and visiting sites and downloading anything. Like I said maybe I feel this way because I am only a player now a days, i don't know.

If this is viewed as just a mass distribution download, what is the difference from somone like me who emails hundreds and hundres of meshes and skins to community members who are posting in the "request" thread looking for a certain character?  I am not giving the requestor every available version of the requested character, or trying to track down what site the skin/mesh was hosted at (unless its a well known site). 

Lastly Benton has been asked to compromise his mod to suit a couple people, which I don't think he needs to at all for 2 reasons,
1. There has only been 0ne (1) person (IPS) who does not want his material in Benton's mod (even those who agree with IPS's views are allowing Benton to keep their material in his mod).  Benton is going to remove his stuff from his mod, but that doesn't seem to be enough for him.  If everybody else is fine with his releasing the mod the way it stands (being it right or not)that should be the end of it.

2. How about instead of Benton compromising, why don't those against him comprimise?  Obvoiusly no one has really heard of the rule that "you can only release a mod if every single skin/mesh in your Mod's Characters folder has a scripted story involving them".  Surely Benton has not heard of that rule, he would not have broken that rule if it was known.  He has always been a outstanding community member, never out to cause any issues with anybody.  So why can't we just let this mod be what Benton intended it to, and from this day forward let it be known that this kind of mod is no longer accectable.  Because right now it seems like this rule has been made after the fact.  Can we just let this mod be the exception for unknown unwritten rule? Or are we going to keep at it until total satisfaction is met?
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Figure Fan on January 23, 2009, 10:46:22 PM
Quote from: ips on January 23, 2009, 09:44:50 PM
FF trying to single me out or draw me isn't going to go anywhere. incase you hadn't noticed, i'm not the only one who feels this way about the issue.

No, you aren't, but I addressed you directly seeing as how you're the one claiming to be "championing the rights of creators". You aren't going to make me dig up direct quotes now, are you? I'm not trying to "draw you in". My comments just required some semblance of a target in order to be effective, and yours were the most pertinent. Not to mention to the most prevalent..

Quote from: USAgentI don't want to single anybody out but there is no doubt that IPS is leading the charge against Benton..

Eeexxactly.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Gremlin on January 23, 2009, 10:48:49 PM
The mod has been removed. Any further discussion is unnecessary. If we go on arguing like this, we're just going to hurt everyone. Both parties want what's best for the community, but prolonging this is ultimately causing more damage than if either side had one. We can't afford this divisiveness. While I'd like people to be able to resolve their disagreements here, I highly doubt that's going to happen in this thread right now.

Since he's the OP, only Benton can really authorize this, but I'd like to request that this thread is locked. Perhaps we can discuss the problem at a later time, without the passions and stress. But now, we aren't going to get anywhere.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Figure Fan on January 23, 2009, 10:52:54 PM
Quote from: Gremlin on January 23, 2009, 10:48:49 PM
The mod has been removed. Any further discussion is unnecessary. If we go on arguing like this, we're just going to hurt everyone. Both parties want what's best for the community, but prolonging this is ultimately causing more damage than if either side had one. We can't afford this divisiveness. While I'd like people to be able to resolve their disagreements here, I highly doubt that's going to happen in this thread right now.

Since he's the OP, only Benton can really authorize this, but I'd like to request that this thread is locked. Perhaps we can discuss the problem at a later time, without the passions and stress. But now, we aren't going to get anywhere.

Yeah, you're right, Grem.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 11:02:57 PM
USAgent, FF, Grem, thank you for your comments.  I am still open to arbitration, but I will not gut the work of three years to appease one person.  I would be willing to sit down (in a virtual sense) with the content creators whose work is still pertinent to the discussion and talk, but this is getting us nowhere.  If there is no other option to put an end to the bickering, then the mod is dead.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Vertex on January 23, 2009, 11:35:20 PM
Okay so you're going to sit down with ALL creators since it's pertinent to all.. not just those you included in mod. Then everyone can agree and come to a intelligent decision that's about whether an agreement way back when was violated or not and then decide what to do about it. That' very mature I salute you.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 11:43:30 PM
Vertex, I meant exactly what I said, all creators for whom it is still pertinent.  This is not a subject for discussion, it is not the beginning of another debate, it is a simple statement.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Vertex on January 23, 2009, 11:44:48 PM
which is everyone to whom the rule would affect. which is all creators.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 11:46:31 PM
Vertex, I said, this was not a topic of discussion.  You can respect that I have said all I intend to say on the matter unless some form of arbitration is arranged, or you can choose to no longer post in my thread.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Vertex on January 23, 2009, 11:47:27 PM
in other words if it isn't what you want to hear shut up.. I get ya.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 11:55:59 PM
IPS, I have said everything that I have to say to you...no, that's not true, there are several hundred things I'd still very much like to say to you, but I am not so uncouth as to verbalize them.  You can call it a content torrent a thousand times, but it still won't make it true.  Enjoy the slow death of the community.

Vertex, thank you for your lack of understanding.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: bearded on January 23, 2009, 11:57:54 PM
...it's cancelled?
...but i needed that to support the rumble mod i've adopted from fury and working on for years and years now...
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: billdamn22 on January 24, 2009, 12:06:13 AM
Why is this even still happening? This discussion/debate is doing nothing but hurting this community as a whole. It is demoralizing.
As a skinner who is not as popular as C6, AA or even IPS. I do not feel slighted by this in any way. So before becoming the voice of the voiceless......why not check with some of us first. You know.... for permission....
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Vertex on January 24, 2009, 12:08:35 AM
Bill that's just it.. personally I WANT that old agreement gotten rid of or changed.. but I don't agree that just allowing those people's work he did decide to use to vote.. is a fair way to change a rule that applies to everyone.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: billdamn22 on January 24, 2009, 12:13:39 AM
Quote from: Vertex on January 24, 2009, 12:08:35 AM
Bill that's just it.. personally I WANT that old agreement gotten rid of or changed.. but I don't agree that just allowing those people's work he did decide to use to vote.. is a fair way to change a rule that applies to everyone.
I would agree with that statement.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: BentonGrey on January 24, 2009, 12:14:12 AM
Quote from: ips on January 23, 2009, 11:49:16 PM
what compromise do you suggest? that we allow him to only screw us over a little bit?

you know what... i'm just going to say what everyone knows and doesn't want to admit.

we ALL love c6. BUT most of us don't care for the cult following his work has earned though (and it's not his fault). but the fact remains people justifiably love his work. when people request characters, their preference 90% of the time is it is a c6 skin or something that is close to it (like AAs style or my own) for consistency with their collections. and i'm also guilty of this.

if you create a 30 character mod with one artists work - fine no problem it's only 30 characters. BUT, if you create a content torrent or mod as sweeping in scope as this (he uses about 50 of the 407 included characters in his mod), using primarily c6 skins as benton has done and release it, it will result in less people asking for characters in the requests section of the forum and most people will be satisfied with the great c6 skins they have - they will never need to ask for replacements or alternatives. in the long run that means people like cyberburn and laughing paradox may never find their stride because their work will never be given as an option for a request.

sure there are exceptions. but generally speaking this is how it is. why do you think benton used ONLY c6 skins where he could.

i AM NOT alone, you ALL KNOW this is the truth.

this arguement isn't for ME? you think i dont have better things to do with MY time? people know my work already. i skin for my portfolio and the fans i do have. this arguement is for every skinner in our community who's work just isn't that good yet. at least if people are still downloading their work they can feel some appreciation when their stuff IS offered in that request. but if this mod comes out and it becomes the defacto of content there's gonna be a lot less opportunities to have their work offered in requests.

so go ahead... villify me some more. i'm SUCH a bad guy because i'm trying to ensure that people like laughing paradox and cyberburn get some attention.

FigureFan: iirc from conversations you and i had at the time, you were one of the people that retired from skinning a few years ago because you weren't getting the kind of reception you wanted from the community because of c6's popularity at the time so exactly what are you defending?

Benton: it's called HUBRIS.

you made a mistake that will hurt people, not everyone immediately but everyone ultimately. rather than admit your mistake you're going to just play on people's sympathy here "oh i worked so hard, oh it's just one guy that has a problem with it." until the community caves in and says you know what benton we want it. all because you can't admit you're out of line including content you shouldn't have.

if you really care about 3 years of work just remove the content, release your ACTUAL MOD, and stop playing the community.

Quote from: BentonGrey on January 23, 2009, 11:55:59 PM
IPS, I have said everything that I have to say to you...no, that's not true, there are several hundred things I'd still very much like to say to you, but I am not so uncouth as to verbalize them.  You can call it a content torrent a thousand times, but it still won't make it true.  Enjoy the slow death of the community.

Vertex, thank you for your lack of understanding.

Quote from: ips on January 24, 2009, 12:04:31 AM
i guess that's the difference between you and i. you think i'm a villainous jerk whereas i just think you made a mistake you can't admit to. i have nothing to say to you, or about you, uncouth or not. ...but thanks for that higher road bit. - and i'm the dramatic one?

Hmm.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 24, 2009, 12:16:17 AM
Enztead of cansaling thiz maude, y naught jus remove zee extraz? Yr haurd workz wood bee zeen 'n peepz wood stop bitching.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: bearded on January 24, 2009, 12:18:13 AM
becuase it's become a matter of pride.
if the non existing rule is 'changed', then the bad ppl get to say, "yay!  rules changed to suit this guy!  anarchy wins!"
if BG backs down from his total creation, he loses face.
no matter what happens evil wins.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 24, 2009, 12:26:28 AM
Evil winz? Wha r u talkin' about bearded?

(http://i42.tinypic.com/znsqs5.jpg)
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Vertex on January 24, 2009, 12:28:53 AM
Quote from: bearded on January 24, 2009, 12:18:13 AM
becuase it's become a matter of pride.
if the non existing rule is 'changed', then the bad ppl get to say, "yay!  rules changed to suit this guy!  anarchy wins!"
if BG backs down from his total creation, he loses face.
no matter what happens evil wins.


sigh thanks for that wonderfully impartial statement that this is a bad guy/benton matter.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: bearded on January 24, 2009, 12:31:03 AM
BG is a good person.  i think we can all agree on that.  even the destoyers agree on that.  his intentions were good.  he is being brought down on a technicality.  a technicality on a rule that doesn't exist.  netiquette no one is aware of.  that alone is evil.
so a good person, with good intent, making a good thing, for the good of the community.
if you don't want to use the word evil, call it imposed anarchy.  i was told by someone i won't name, 'i wouldn't mind seeing this community destroyed'.  that is evil, in my view.
i don't think i can put it better.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: laughing paradox on January 24, 2009, 12:35:03 AM
I have to say..

I understand your sentiment, IPS, about lesser skinners having unused skins.. but it's misplaced.

I've been a member of this site for a very long time and I have never been privy to these former formation of rules. Now I understand at the time it was debated and layed down as what's best for the community, but one should realize that things change over time and other people have joined the fold who have an equal voice. It's not a matter of "Let's bend the rules for Benton" but a matter of "Let's make some changes to better the community".

IPS, I know what you're trying to do is to look out for the 'little guy', but we don't need the help.. we have a voice and if we refrain to speak, it's because maybe we don't want to add to any drama. But that doesn't mean we don't have an opinion or that we are scared to say it. As Bill already said, and as I'm saying now, I support Benton's project and I don't feel slighted that someone's work like C6 is looked at over mine. I also don't hold any jealousy over it.. it actually inspires me to do better. Just recently I was finished up an Amalgam Hawkeye skin and looked at C6's extras and thought, "Damn, how does he do it?!", in admiration.

This place isn't meant for the small emotions. We don't need jealousy or anger or resentment.. I really see this group as a group that loves comics and loves this game. And I'd hate to be proven wrong on that front.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 24, 2009, 12:46:18 AM
Honestly are you guys reading this anymore? It reads like the Big Book of Epic Fail and maybe we should put the book down and have a cookie or two and think about how much we really care about being right because right now everything in the forum (besides my amazing images) are:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/nvy6ox.jpg)

I suggest we solve this with posting pictures of things that epic fail and compare it to both side then we would realize how epically we are all failing as a community and it's not even worth it.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Figure Fan on January 24, 2009, 12:47:05 AM
Quote from: IPS
FigureFan: iirc from conversations you and i had at the time, you were one of the people that retired from skinning a few years ago because you weren't getting the kind of reception you wanted from the community because of c6's popularity at the time so exactly what are you defending?

WITHDRAWN
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: AfghanAnt on January 24, 2009, 12:51:26 AM
OMIGAWD DUDES!? Take that personal ish into the pms, seriously. This is about Bent's mod and whether he should release all the extra content. It is not a point the finger and make other people feel awkward.

I wish I was a mod and I would say:

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2rrmq6o.jpg)

I'm going to go eat some crab legs now, someone throw in bits of humor so this thread is not so serious business. I mean we don't even get this heated at work about the direction of the company.
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: GogglesPizanno on January 24, 2009, 01:00:13 AM
I wish i could get my house this heated.
Winter time is cold.

But let me add this to the discussion....

I'm a pepper.
They're a pepper.
He's a pepper.
She's a pepper.

Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

... Think about it....
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: Johnny Patches on January 24, 2009, 01:07:39 AM
WOW.. i seen alot of debates over big things and even  smaller ones, i was involed in a few.. but from my experence in my last debate over skopes (sorry to get off this topic..)  it threw alot of good skopers in to a silent mode. and if you guys havent noticed where are they all at now? ill tell you.. doing their own thing.. keeping to them selfs.. what im trying to say is that its going to get done with the comunity or without.. so id rather keep my kids in my back yard knowing what they are doing. then going in some other kids yard wondering..
we are like one big family we have are ups and downs, keep it together guys..
just an opinion
Title: Re: DCUG - Canceled
Post by: deano_ue on January 24, 2009, 01:16:34 AM
Quote from: bearded on January 24, 2009, 12:18:13 AM

no matter what happens evil wins.


WHOOOHOOOO


In the more serious mood, i have spoke at length in the shack and in pm's with other artists and BG, and basically the pm i sent to bg was


Quotehonestly i said the same as vetrex. the whole mass pack/torent idea was settles as a no in the community a long time ago.

the whole thing is people in the thread are missing the point and turning it into a skinners vs mod debate which is shouldn't be. BG it is not an attack on you and you shouldn't take it as such.

the main thing that concerns me is that if it was just the missions and not the extra content then there would be no problem, but the idea of someone being able to just download your mod and just basically for the lack of a better term, cut and paste to make a new one.  you did it the right way and got the permission and kept the creators credits, sadly i don't see others doing the same and that's what bothers me.


the more i've thought about it, the more i'm leaning towards the artists side of my personality rather than the gamer. i've had more work stole be it photos, illustration or skins, and trust me now matter what the end result it is in simple terms a kick in the nut sack. now before anyone says i'm accusing BG of stealing, wind your neck in. I'm not. BG did the right thing and got permissions, would i prefer he used my versions of characters rather than c6's or aa. bloody straight i would. thats not a slight at the other creators i'm sure everyone would feel the same. my main point is what is to stop someone who doesn't give a crap about the artists coming along and using BG's work as a base and basically screwing over the artists along with bg by releasing a mod or pack with no credit.

with what has happened here it has made think about giving permission for my skins to be used in mods, i'm not saying no but i am considing adding guide lines that i would prefer to be consulted on what the modder has planned for my work, and thats for mainstream i'm still not sure where i stand on my originals. that may sound self important and stuck up, but sorry thats the way it is, if a magazine came to me and asked me for the rights to use my photos i would damn sure like to now what the magazine is planning and what it's content is, it's something my tutor told me in college, no matter what happens its something people have to remember how your work is used by yourself or other it is stil your work and all of the public reaction come back on you as the artist be it good or bad

and to channel some of what AA's one

Spoiler
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c185/the_ultimate_evil/random/facepalm.jpg)